Remember when RPGs had actual dungeons?
>>736368236This doesent look very fun
>>736368236what game
>>736368236That looks very fun.
minecraft is boring horseshit
>>736368290maybe this is more your speed
>>736368236Could you highlight the route to the treasure, then highlight the route out? Thx.Also, let me see enemies through walls (using my sense of smell or some shit)
that's like 20% of the first megaten
>>736368326daggerfall
>>736368236it's a shame that even with automaps, actual dungeons with actual skill checks and puzzles were replaced with linear corridors that loop around and have a braindead "puzzle"
>>736368236Not a real Daggerfall dungeon. This is more representative of an actual dungeon layout. The one you posted is a debug test showing all possible tiles as active, when in reality, only a small number would be activated, like in this image. DF dungeons are big and mazelike, but they're not THAT over the top. The only real frustration comes from trying to find a scarf behind 3 hidden locked doors. If the dungeons actually looked like that one, it'd be borderline impossible.
>>736368236>Randomized mess of generic pre-made dungeon cellsFun.
>>736368236Generally nobody enjoys dungeons when they double down on the actual crawling aspect. Dead ends, invisible doors, traps resetting progress, and manually drawn maps are frustrating mechanics to deal with at the best of times.
>>736368236>randomly generated slopyeah bro, great dungeon
I like how people still think it's a real image. daggerfall dungeons are like a tenth of this size. I guess it's good for outing people who never played the game yet still feel comfortable criticizing or praising it's dungeons
>>736368236Anyone have noclip views of EQ's dungeons? The ones before they became instanced, anyway.
>>736368410VGH, an intelligently designed dungeon for intelligent player such as myself
>>736368236yeah it fucking sucked
Anybody overly praising or shitting on Daggerfall's dungeons has not played the game. I like Daggerfall and I like the dungeons, but they're not the pinnacle of game design nor are they terrible. If you have the attention span of a gnat you mind find them really tedious but if you can't get any enjoyment out of them for a first playthrough, you just don't like video games.
>always lug around 5 rocks for the repetitive weight puzzles that's used dozens of timesyep, they don't make em like they used to
>>736368236you posted something from a game that was the ground zero of soulless slop
>>736369074>ground zeroNot what that means. Daggerfall was not the first popular game to extensively use procgen (that'd be Rogue) and it didn't take off again in popularity until Minecraft.
uncs be like "YO THIS DUNGEON SHIT FIRE"
>>736368780Why did you reply to yourself?
>>736368236So many people shit on Daggerfall dungeons, but I thought they were fun
>>736368236This is modded right?I never saw a dungeon this big when I played the game.
>>736368236Did Todd look at this and said>Yes this is fine
>>736368236Hallways for 2 hours.
>>736369640What game is this?
>>736368236I turn on smaller dungeons with Daggerfall Unity.
for me it's ultima underworld
You feel somewhat bad.
Never stop and think>Who made this dungeon?Unless they're using skeletons with OSHA hats you end up thinking about how they had to have someone lay down every single brick unless it's a mostly dug cavern one.
>>736370321>next village is 10 days away
>>736368236>>736368410>if you don't like this end of the extreme you must like the other end of the extremeThe kind of rhetoric that gets slung around on this board is stale as shit and genuinely retarded. It's at a point where I can just about predit the replies to every post. Genuinely the median mental age of this dosghit board cannot be any higher than 13.
>>736370468they're literally just mines, that's why they exist
>>736368410Ancestral Tombs aren't meant to be dungeons, retard. They're crypts for families. You disingenuously didn't use something like any of the Dwemer Ruins that came from the very same game (like the one you explore within the first 30 minutes of the main story) because then it would have ruined your narrative.
>>736368236>I equip my staff of passwall...
>>736368236I just played one recently
>>736370632But then you go down the wrong corridor in a castle and find yourself in an absolute madhouse. That's when you start asking questions about Iliac Bay architecture.
>>736368236imagine being a little girl lost in there with nobody to rescue you
What constitutes as "good dungeon design"?
>>736368560Real caverns are randomized too (by nature).
>>736370883lots of traps, enemies that can insta-kill you, 4 dimensional teleporters all over the place, minimum 100 floors, boss fight before every floor, no save points or health refills
>>736368236I assume this is 85% empty besides copy-pasted enemies?
>>736368236Nobody actually wants this. Nobody actually fully plunders a Daggerfall dungeon. Nobody actually plunders every Daggerfall dungeon. People actually want unique dungeons with stories to tell and a hidden rare item someone. Daggerfall is a meme game.
>>736370883A perfect balance of complexity so every twist and turn gives you pause but enough simplicity that leaving feels like a well traveled road. You want the delver to always feel like they just discovered the right route and never feel lost for more than the moments they weigh their options.
>>736370667Thank you for your service
vent crawlers > dungeon crawlers
>>736370169Two worlds 2
>>736370590>higher than 13.Unfortunately, it's worse, adult brownoids.
>>736368236Might & Magic had waaay better dungeons
>>736368236No? /v/ is so insulated and full of retarded ritual posters making the same boring slop threads all day they don't even know bethesda garbage has pretty much been replaced by a myriad of survival crafting games, like daggerfall is objectively just rlcraft or vintage story but way, way worse. I don't even like using the rpg label to describe games because it doesn't mean anything other than "a game but you have to pretend it's not shit". It's a functionally meaningless genre.
>>736368236I love daggerfall and play it all the time but I only play with small dungeons On, because these spaghetti dungeons are aids and I don't want to spend 50 hours, searching through a dungeon, looking for an amulet just to realize the dungeon generation fucked me over and the amulet is somewhere I can't reach without cheating (happens a lot, unfortunately)
>>736370667Let's not pretend the vast majority of skyrim "dungeons" aren't just pathetic circles or at best extremely linear. There's hardly ever any real puzzle or need to explore in the actual sense. You just move forward and you'll get out, maybe look at a dragon claw for the 6th time to get a door code.
>>736368236>>736368410Nigger not every single dungeon needs to be an endless labyrinth.
>>736371037Not even Wizardry IV was that sadistic though the Dink puzzle was pure bullshit.
>>736368236>Random side dungeon with 100 gold and slightly better steel dagger>Has to fight 500 mobs and spend 2 days to find the treasureOnly a genuine aspergy would find this idea "fun"
>>736372228no ones saying skyrim dungeons are any better? are you fucking retarded?
>>736372363its called resource management zoomie yes to be a core staple of any rpg no you just put on x10 speed and run around and if you die its okay cause autosave will revive you right where you last died now thats FUN
>>736372479Keep coping tranny
>Bigger and emptier is better!!Zoom zoom!Daggerfall dungeons that weren't handmade (which was 99.9) were pure buggy slop. I guess since morrowind reached cult classic status hipsters gotta go with daggerfall these days
Back when devs were amateurs and retards, they assumed that "bigger is better" which turned out to be wrong. Most people don't actually enjoy spending hours walking in the samey dungeon for trash loot, something devs gradually learned overtime as the overall sizes shrank and became more compressed. Nintendo, as always were among the first to adopt a dungeon system that respects their players time and life by giving us the perfectly sized dungeons in BotW
What the heck happened to this subreddit? I thought we were GAMERS, not CASUALS... I'm so disappointed in ya'll...
>>736372861snoy falseflag to make nintendo fans look stupid
>>736369575I am not sure whether Todd joined Bethesda before or after Daggerfall.
>>736372994Go away trolling faggot, stop flooding the board with boring rpgs for lazy morons
>>736373107He's right if he's talking about Nintendo's dungeon design. BotW is the first 3D Zelda game even resembling good level design.
>>736371508>Niko style water kata
Doom is a dungeon crawler blobber
>>736373324OMG I GOT THAT REFERENCE FELLOW /KENGAN/CHAD HAHA WE ARE SO COOL
literally the best dungeon delver
>>736373849Looks way better more fun than Morrowind at least
>>736373956there isnt a single dungeon in boringshit
>>736373849King's Field is so bad. It always amazes me FROM managed to survive despite how mediocre all their early PSX/PS2 games are.
>>736369503Main mission dungeons were funSide content that was procedurally generated sucked ass, They were just nonsensical labyrinths
>>736370468>Never stop and think>Who made this dungeon?>Unless they're using skeletons with OSHA hats you end up thinking about how they had to have someone lay down every single brick unless it's a mostly dug cavern one.On the next video essay
>>736368925>>736371070/thread
>>736374402the "point" of King's field isn't the combat, it's the exploration. I know it's a massive cope to use that to explain the dogshit combat, but that's clearly where the majority of the dev resources went to
>>736374402Armored Core hard-carried them in those early days
>>736368236I liked wild arms dungeons with tools and character switching
I miss them. I was very dissapointed when I played DW9 last month... nothing but branching Y's with one having a blocked exit at the end. The first tower thing in the 3 is harder than anything in that whole game.
>>736368236>Proc gen slop
>>736369372>diorite and granitebro you are posting zoomer era minecraft at least.maybe later or modded with that weird purple shitfor uncs the most convoluted shit we had were nether fortresses and strongholds.
>>736376342>for uncs the most convoluted shit we had were nether fortresses and strongholds.Mines were added to the game before both of these things
>>736370761That looks cool (heh). Game?
>>736377082Labyrinth of Touhou Tri
>>736368236Yes, but Daggerfall dungeons aren't particularly good.
Good dungeon games still exist
>>736368236You just need to change up your perspective. The entire game is a dungeon. I think it’s easy to confuse. I also get lost in lustful desires for my own perception of a dungeon. But, what’s actually occurring in the inner recesses of my minds eye is a desire for well balanced gameplay. Dungeons receive better balance than other hubworld areas. That’s the full story, they’re designed for the combat part of the game. And, the connecting hubworld areas of a game are designed to make travelling more difficult, or to include story and plot elements for world building. It’s all part of a skinnerbox loop to coax the dopamine out of its antenna and to be absorbed. They’ve made perfect games without all the crap that everyone hates, and they don’t sell half as much. The dopamine fags won’t leave their antenna without heavy coaxing through simulated reward loops.
>>736377163Thanks, Anon. It reminded me of the frozen lake area in Three Fairies' Great Journey. Here's a screenshot from a different area that I had to annotate to get through.
>>736377238gaem?
>>736377552dungeon travelers 2
>>736377658>not on steamshame
>>736368236shit ass dungeon design>>736368290 is correctgetting lost in this shit isn't even fun for the explorationNow pic related on the other hand is what daggerfall wished its dungeons would be.Peak sovl & exploration
>>736377813I have a vague memory of the game coming out there. And the sequel. After a decade, poor Vita-chan left in the dust. Its not fair. I guess they didnt censor the post game bosses...
>>736378395looks like the first DT is on Steam, couldn't find the second one though
Dude I loved Daggerfall as much as the next guy but the dungeons absolutely becomes tedious pieces of shit after awhile.
>>736368236Tedious piece of crap, i was so bored back in the day i started using cheats to teleport from entrance to quest objective.Did they made the dungeons more reasonable in the new Daggerfall Unity or whatever it's called?
>>736378804there is an easy mode to make them smaller, yes
There is no way to experience these dungeons today. They are literally lost relics. But I think the few dungeons in this game are the best ever made. Tied in with the online mechanics and them being able to be completed with friends and it's not even close for other dungeon runners.
>>736377332OP's mom's ass is a dungeon.
>>736378842>easy modeDon't like the sound of that.
>>736378950That's not what the actual option is called in game. Smaller Dungeons just makes the dungeons smaller.
>>736378950It's not a particularly hard game and no one cares if you cheats in a single player game
>>736374402>Evergrace>Evergrace 2>Eternal RingThey really made nothing but ass back then.
>>736378849Apparently some group is trying to get a private server up and running. Fingers crossed.
>>736372541Most intelligent /v/ user
I've been playing Daggerfall for a couple weeks now.These dungeons are a lot of fun.But, you do start to notice patterns and rooms repeating a bit often. And God help you if you've seemingly explored the whole thing and need to start searching for any little hint of an unexplored path to find the quest item. Even worse if it's just on the ground as a nondescript detail like a bit of blood. Then it's way too easy to miss.But that's only happened a couple times, and you start to get really good about knowing what you're looking for.The dungeons in this game are the best in the series as far as I'm concerned. There aren't enough of them in Morrowind, and the lack of level scaling means that 90% of them are either boringly easy, or too hard to be worth your time. And Skyrim is Skyrim
>>736368236Daggerfalls dungeons were dogshit. I used the "teleport to quest item" and "teleport to entrance" console commands
>>736369503Remember that Lord Woodborne did nothing Wrong!
>>736373502Sure why not.
>>736379758>skips all actual gameplayWhy even play Daggerfall at that point?Morrowind fans are the death of the franchise, trying to contort this series into something it was never meant to be, acting like we're the weird ones for enjoying the rest of the series more.
>>736368236Im so intrigued by this game. Heard the realism mods are worth a try.
I tried to play Daggerfall once after 2000, in the 2010's sometime. I got stuck in any room where I had to swim because the swimming animation was linked to the framerate so anything getting over 60fps made it so you couldn't sink into the water you just bounced around at the top
>>736373114Todd voiced some creatures in Daggerfall.
>>736369640That was actually a pretty cool concept, not enough games send you off into a labyrinth and make it feel like a proper adventure. That whole series was underrated as fuck, even though it was rather janky.
>>736369575>>736373114>>736380362Todd's been at Bethesda since the early 90's and was even getting lead designer roles by 1997
>>736368410I dont think Ive ever enjoyed a dungeon besides Zelda, so shorter is better yes.
>>736368236Daggerfall dungeons are ass and the only people who jerk off about them are people who haven't played actually dungeon crawlers or Daggerfall. Daggerfall in general is an overrated game only 'liked' by contrarians who want to troll other TES fans or by people who haven't played the game either and just think it's conceptually cool but haven't played it long enough to see just how repetitive and bland it is. The only good part of it is the character creation system.
>>736380703Yea. No man's sky sounded awesome but it really taught me the downside to procedural generation.
Etrian odyssey had some really fucked up ones
>>736368236Daggerfall is proto-slop. This is just a randomly generated spaghetti of rooms and corridors, zero intent went into it.The whole game is glazed by retarded retrofags who severely blow it's "complexity" WAY out of proportion, this game is actually very very simple.Also, more skill does not equal more complex when most of the skills only interact passively with the game and are simple number increases that increase odds.Skyrim skill perk system is more complex than Daggerfall's, yes I'm serious.t. played the entire storyline of Daggerfall (I want my time back)
>>736381081A shame they ruinedeverything past 4.
>>736381252How are the wizard games?
>>736368236Despite liking Daggerfall a lot (both original and Unity) and spending countless hours playing it, the dungeons were always terrible and unfun. It's the epitome of "game programmer learns about procedural generation, creates entire game around endless randomized levels thinking it's coolest shit ever while it's obviously not".
>>736368290fpbpI can already see myself halfway through that dungeon being like>omfg when will this be over
>>7363812524 was crap though and 5 was a return to form. Don't you remember stratums in 4 only being 3 levels deep and being short as fuck since they crammed stratum 5 into all the others?
>>736381742>game programmer learns about procedural generation, creates entire game around endless randomized levels thinking it's coolest shit ever while it's obviously notit's a phase every game engine developer goes through and grows out oft.enginedev
>>736376865the spawning of them back then was different and simpler, kid.cave system was less connected as well.the most complicated stuff spawning was the nether fortresses and strongholds
>>736381906I barely remember last year>>736381556Great.
>>736381742>>736381934It's fun if your main appeal of the game is exploring, fighting and collecting items.That's the core of the Elder Scrolls, and I don't get how people get so invested in the series without understanding that.The dungeons can be hit or miss on occasion, but they work very well at what they need to.
>>736380457Everyone hated it. But an actual labyrinth like this is rare. No map. No topdown view that slowly reveals itself while you explore. Just you in the dark with a torch.
>>736368236Yeah but Daggerfall isn't really what comes to mind.I really want them back in third-person/first-person 3D RPGs, but it looks like that won't happen any time soon.
retro dungeons are cool until you need to deal with bullshit spinners and warps made to waste time and confuse you
>>736371508they are cock and ball torture
infinite undiscovery is an underrated dungeon crawler with real time party combat
>>736368236who the fuck would build a dungeon like this?
>>736384137Straight White Men
>>736368236Is this the game that let you dig through walls?
>>736368236whiterun in skyrim should've been this big
>>736384137mole people,very rich sorcerers, and vampires.
>>736384137jews
>>736384968why
>>736385239I just love the hustle and bustle of the big city
>>736368236yes, and i hated it
>>736368290CorrectIt's really notIt's procedurally generated stuff that all looks the same, endless boring corridors just to kill some non unique enemies in equally boring and plain roomsDaggerfall has its charms but was very... experimental, lets say.>>736368410Yes its better by virtue of not being straight up annoying, but also as the other anon points out its dishonest to pretend its a regular dungeon. But in general, I find uninteresting to be better than both uninteresting and annoying, so I'd still take the tomb over daggerfall stuff, which is also why Skyrim dungeons are, as uninteresting as they are, still better than what you have to endure in daggerfall.
>>736368236every person in this thread except for>>736368531is a fucking poser.This is a debug test of daggerfall unity with every possible tile active.literally none of the dungeons in game are like this. Which you would know if you had ever played even 5 minutes of the game.none of you faggots ever play anything but you spend all day shitposting as if you do. its the same for every fucking game. what causes you to be like this?
>>736385804>its dishonest to pretend its a regular dungeon.>dungeons are not dungeons when they go against my narrativeLmao.
>>736368236Randomly generated massive dungeons should be used exclusively for optional content, while main story dungeons should be fairly straightforward but still decently large.That is true balance.
>>736380457>not enough games send you off into a labyrinthit might be because mazes with repetitive level assets are widely considered to be the most boring design that it's possible to put into a video game.
>>736372537You'd benefit from managing the resource of English punctuation known as the comma.
>>736386264I think that's the way Daggerfall dungeons actually worked. The main story quest dungeons were hand designed but other dungeons had procedurally generated layouts
>>736386505>Capital E for englishLowest effort grammar nazi post. Still had to use AI to double check fist. kek
>>736386264Play Daggerfall right now.
>>736368236A giant maze of random hallways is not a dungeon
>>736382017It’s actually the complete opposite. In their very first version, the original mines were way more frequent and significantly larger. They reduced their density and frequency twice.
I was actually kind of surprised Dragon Quest 2 HD committed to the fucked up maze dungeons and expanded on the cave leading to the ending a bitThe final castle is still basically just a straight hallway into a boss rush though
>>736386264Procedural generation should be restricted to games designed for it. It has no place in proper story-driven RPGs. Leave it to roguelikes, roguelites and other games like ARPGs, which already offer plenty of replay value and don’t need sophisticated level design. Otherwise, you’ll end up with trash like Daggerfall or Stafield.
>>736389641As a bonus infinite play mode I think it's fine even in games that aren't otherwise randomly generatedI would fucking love a random map mode for something like Unicorn Overlord
>>736389384not from what I have seen in 1.12, though I haven't really checked even more recent versions.regardless I always found the nether fortresses and strongholds to be worse.Maybe I am a bit off in my memory though because I never had trouble navigating the cave systems and by extension the mines.>t. played since 1.2.1 main release or so
Here's your overworld map, broTakes you an entire hour to get from one end to the other
>>736389839I don't think it's worth it. Procedural generation is no simple task, it often requires a great deal of effort and simply takes up time and energy that could be spent on something truly important.
>>736368236Nobody would build this>>736368410Somebody would build this
>>736368290it's not, there's a daggerfall unity, or whatever the new engine was, mod that shrinks dungeons and makes the game actually funalthough tbf it shrinks them too much imo but stillalso wtf is with captchas now, why the fuck do I need to do this shit 3 times is that gook faggot that desperate for people to buy passes?
>>736389954>>t. played since 1.2.1 main release or soThey’ve hardly changed how mines generate since then. They’ve just made them a bit rarer, made them spawn on the surface in one of the biomes, and ensured they don’t spawn in awkward spots. Perhaps the new caves make them seem larger and more numerous than they actually are.
>>736390157>$10 >your cookies>your sanitychoose wisely
>>736376342zoomers are uncs now
did normalfaggots and casuals kill dungeons for good? I never see them anymore and it makes me sad
>>736390368Define dungeon.
>>736390529>define "the"no, fuck you, you know what I mean
>>736390368Genres centred around dungeons are more popular than ever.
>>736368410
Any modern dungeon-kino?
>>736389454>Dragon Warriorold...
>>736390905>King's chambersUranium refinery*
The same people who piss and moan about AI slop are on this board right now, defending Daggerfall.
>>736390225its a bit that.I noticed that given a larger void to spawn in, spawned in structures (during world generation) can sometimes be larger. the other is that in 1.12 with their massive completely connected cavesystems I can easily run into multiple mine systems, where before I would finish exploring a second and need to dig a lot to find another.I also should revise my statement on nether forts, they CAN be much bigger in my experience, but are not guaranteed to be.it gets whackier as well because they can generate with significant sections buriedI am starting to get into all-the-mods 10 now, and that is on... idk some version in the 1.20's now?caves are wildly different from what little I saw so who knows what I will find in the nether or underground now.
>>736390352gotta be 30 to be an unc.zoomers just look 30 because they grew up in worse times and got stressed out.fake-uncs, if you will.>realizing I have male pattern baldness in both sides of my family, its starting to hit me, but I got more hair than zoomers in their 20's
>>736391865Most modpacks have mods that significantly alter world generation.
>>736391695>doesnt know what AI is
>>736391695holy retard
>>736392072Explain to me how procedurally generated overworld, cities, NPCs, and dungeons, with all the same pitfalls of nonsensical design and layouts that no human would ever make on purpose, is meaningfully different from just letting AI slop together a game.
>>736392049not this one.atm10 focused on just adding more biomes.nothing that is meant to fuck with the shape of the landI will say my experiences in 1.12 were influenced though.MC Eternal does a lot of heavy alteration to terrain generation from what I can see, and that was what I was using.
Dungeons you say?
>>736390368Notice a pretty sharp decline in level design overall desu lad
>>736392248they're just different levels of math
>>736392282I blame open world
>>736392259It features mods that completely overhaul the generation of vanilla structures.
>>736392248sure.when you go through more limited procedural generation you are personally tweaking every variable and using combinations of triggers and dicerolls that again, you manually tweak every inch of, in order to generate things.it is a static and unchanging algorithm.when you let AI do it it highly depends on what "AI" you are using.at the simplest level you are relying on a learning algorithm that is built to adjust itself based on parameters you either trusted someone else to set, or set for yourself.this would be really strange and stupid to use for world gen though because there is little in the way to reward the learning algorithm.so instead you would make something more complex that was trained beforehand on a bunch of shit to scramble its algorithms randomly into a shape you figured was "good enough"In daggerfall it is humans who did all the heavy lifting in determining the random generation.in anything else you are multiple layers removed and getting god knows what mixed in, for better or worse.>>736392405no, not just math.its different levels of human oversight and interaction.
>>736368236>"dungeon">it's a labyrinth
>>736392586And yet the procedurally generated dungeons in Daggerfall are still utter gibberish in layout where any tangible amount of human oversight would've looked at the map, let out a hearty laugh, and then performed some heavy reconfiguring to move them closer to sanity.Plus, you can define rules and boundaries for AI. So again, what's the meaningful difference that elevates the great design of Daggerfall above a game "designed" by AI?
>>736391391Nah, that's clearly the subterranean chamber. why do you think it has an escape shaft?
>>736392829>So again, what's the meaningful differenceI just told you.You are a retard that is trying to compare procedural generation to purpose-built generation and using the latter to claim there is no difference in variations of the former.Stop doing so.Purpose-built will always be superior IF done to the proper extent.Nobody is trying to argue that so shut the fuck up about it.Your questions were about more limited algorithms vs straight up AIYou got your answer, now shut up and digest it instead of crying that it wasn't competently made by hand.
>>736392586Bruh we could just write out in pen and paper different facts about the highest sold platforming games. Then just do factoring basically, just factor out the same exact things. Now we simply put these equations into an ai script which will scramble them together. And the ai will gauge player enjoyment out of its procedurally generated derivatives of its master. And over time, its alterations to the master will produce the best level in gaming history. The reason it isn’t done this way is because Nintendo wants to keep juicing.
>>736392586>it's NOT just different levels of math>explains different levels of mathI'm still not convinced
>>736393103the amount of time needed to accurately gauge player enjoyment makes such a method impossible to implement currently.it will start out shit, get a rep for being shit, the owners will make it take less time to recalibrate, and its accuracy will go down massively.
>>736393168>name multiple things beside math>retard ignores those things, finds only math>complains that they found only math after tossing aside everything BUT math
>>736393235>procedural generation>tweaking every variable>triggers>dicerolls>algorithms>learning algorithm>parameters>reward the learning algorithm>trained>scramble its algorithms>random generationit's math, it's all just different levels math
>>736393176No, it will start out as perfect, as it uses the best level designs for its initial strategy. Just imagine like Zelda 64, where we had used accurate data like-distance from large chest to large chest -number of enemies per dungeon -number of jumps -height changes from start of dungeon -color pallets Like, collect that data. And, put it into the ai bruh. And have it copy that, but also make logical changes. And you can gauge player joy by seeing how much they login. How dedicated they are to collecting. Time spent completing. Shit like that. Ai can easily reproduce quests in a 3D environment all procedurally generated. It can write out words too, it can do all that jazz easy. You don’t even need like a programming tool I can easily just write it with a table napkin and lipstick.
>>736393416>human interaction vs no interaction is math now>testing and refining is math nowlook I get that you are a fucking retard who wants to dumb everything down to small words but this is a bit more complex than that
>>736393490>as it uses the best level designs for its initial strategyno they will have pretrained it on the most popular games of all time with dungeons.meaning skyrim.
>>736368410An idiot is impressed by complexity. A genius is impressed by simplicity.
>>736393748Wallhug slop
>>736393748>757 hp >bone shield>horned helm >holy freeze merc Dude what are you doing
>>736368236Low IQ people struggle with them.
>>736393504algorithms do math to make random shitAI uses a bunch of algorithms that do math to make random shitit's math all the way downcomputers are just rocks doing math
>>736393829the best kind of dungeons. Claustrophobia, can't endlessly dodge or hide from enemies, loosing directions. That's what dungeons are about.
>>736394129>retard continues to be blind to the word "human"
>>736368236I miss dungeons so much bro. I want an Elder Scrolls game with dungeons from Etrian Odyssey, like 50 of them.
Potato's Flowers in full bloom has good dungeons
>>736368236soulless nonsensical corridors fucking yikes
>>736368236Daggerfall is so fucking based. I really do need to go back to my unity save and really give this game some love.
>>736394250I love Eradinus! I cant wait to experience it again in the enhnaced port!
>>736394250This is the one game left I feel like I should complete before I die. The start was so unique I just didn't feel like dealing with all the monster raising.
>>736394250Sector E's nowhere near Atlus' worst teleporter mazeIt's relatively benign and you get a lot of shortcuts
>>736377238Oh thank christ someone finally blew up Aberdeen. Next do Edinburgh.
Blackrock Depths... home...
I've always hated dungeons that are just dungeons. In my opinion, they are always better and more interesting when they are a clear location and of reasonable size. Like, exploring a fallen city, a mansion, etc. with clear landmarks and theming.
>>736375250The combat is honestly better than a lot of other first person melee combat oriented games which end up regressing into circle strafe and spam attack.
>>736383141Outward had like a 5 minute section in the magic mountain in the first area that was vaguely labyrinth like.
>>736369503I love them. I need to reinstall now.
>>736369372this seed also works on legacy console edition aparently>>736372228correct, worst offender is almost always dwarven ruins
FFXI exploration was something else. 90% of the time there were also blocked off sections that maps would tell you jack shit about and you just had to know wtf you needed to do beforehand to even navigate the areadon't even get me started on bullshit like yhutunga jungle and yorcea weald
>>736368236Looks like a lot of backtracking and empty spaces.
>>736398056Reminds me of 1.0 FFXIV Gridania. I hated it back then, but I miss it now. If only 1.0 didn't have a seconds long delay between clicking on something and having it activate, that disconnect made me hate it and not give it a proper chance.
>>736397809My friends baited me into playing Outward with the multiplayer mod and god it was awful
>>736370883Complexity, non-linear exploration, puzzles that are clever (not telegraphed and not stupidly cryptic), good encounter design with enemies. Interesting layout that isn't just a gridmaze or a boring series of cube rooms connected with straight hallways.
>>736374402I like the idea of KF, but the gameplay is just bad. I hope some of the indies inspired by it are actually good.
Dungeon talk?I dislike how nuJagex turned all of their dungeons and caves into sprawling 2-5 multi-tiered chasms. No more comfy caves.
>>736383801Fuck this place
>>736371037>lots of trapsNo. Traps are just obnoxious and annoying and are usually pointless because you can just reload
>>736368236What's this, the entire game environment of King's Field II?
>>736397389I always wanted to see a game use a mall as a dungeon. I think it would be cool exploring various stores and getting shit from them and finding shortcuts via back entrances and employee hallways.
>>736402638isn't that literally what dead rising was?
>>736402638one of the SMT games did it?
>>736402638Warframe kinda but also not really.
>>736402773the malls in SMT1 were more of classic dungeons, but there were safe spots scattered around. Same deal with that final dungeon in the end
>>736402638so dead rising
>>736391984>zoomers just look 30 because they grew up in worse times and got stressed outOuch, anonI'm 29, and people have been assuming I was in my 30s since ~23I still have all my hair, but there's salt in the pepper
>>736368290>>736368236Controversial opinion:arena>daggerfall. Actual level design is a huge difference.
>>736372228Honestly Oblivion had pretty great dungeonsThey could be quite large, lots of detail and traps, and often multiple branches while still offering a shortcut to escape easier at the end.
>>736402638yeah. It gives me a backrooms vibe. I always wanted to have Schools as maps for shooters but of course we can't have that in a christian manga.
>>736373502Blobbers have multiple characters on a tile
>>736375305WA2 was one of the first JRPGs I really got into on the PS1. After that, they all felt kind of boring without the puzzle dungeons.
>>736405861Multiple guns on a tile, each gun is a character
>>736402638>>736402773>>736402957SJ
>>736404676Trvthnvke
>>736368236Who the fuck has time for that?
>>736407112The low point of that game. I struck it from my rosy tinted memories for that reason.
>>736407112last kino game in the franchise
>>736407160The same retards who spend five hours matchmaking in Call of Duty? What a stupid question
>>736407226Carina was a cool idea but it was held back immensely by the games formula, it was a video game dungeon dressed up in shopping mall packaging rather than an actual mall being repurposed as a dungeon.
>>736368236what's their tax policy?
>>736393818>quote from a schizo lolcow
>>736370883in FFXI content/areas terms: SkyLimbusDynamisfor bad design: SeaZNMWeiner in a Jar
>>736407749a correct schizo lowlcow albeit
>>736407739It's self sufficient you pay in what you get and what you do
>>736402638I like hospital levels for the exact same reason but with smaller rooms.
>>736406770No this is just equipment, in blobbers each character is fighting simultaneously.Though an FPS blobber could be a fun idea
>>736370883Bitterblack Isle minus the reused map layouts
>>736368236Play Devil Spire Falls. It has short dungeon but also giant fuck you dungeon in the form of Spire. The creator of the game is a Daggerfallfag in case you're wondering how he got this idea. Its all generated, not Pre-generated.
>>736407261It's 2026, not 2009. Literally no one does that anymore faggot.
>when the entire game is a dungeon
>>736397389Spiral Knights has dungeons that aren't just cave themed. They're all floating island esque though. Like floating mansion or floating grass maze.
>>736408197KINO
>>736409150what game
>>736409150Gross, the Dark Elf love to shower from shit drained from the Free City of Rydale.
>>736409150The folks who built the now Submerged City were kinda retarded
>>736409150>ringdlestone not even on the maplol
>>736370883A good dungeon is one that you want to go to. Whether it has interesting enemies to fight, a tough boss at the end to challenge you, a story to tell, characters to meet, items to find, these are all ingredients that different people care about to varying degrees. Some people want to kill shit, others want to explore, others want a boss to kick them in the balls.
Vanilla everquest will always be superior
>>736402638Ashes 2063 and Afterglow is what you're looking for.
>>736380703this is better than any porn mod I've seen for skyrim
We are the spirits of the Old Fags, the Ancient Ones. We have been chosen to guard sacred Dubs, wherein the moot rests. Few are worthy to stand in its presence; fewer still can comprehend his true purpose. Before you enter, you must defeat us.
>>736411608ez
>>736409208Elden Ring
>>736409082>Spiral Knightsis that game still alive?I remember playing it on kongregate a long time ago
>>736389959I realize it's always a joke when I see people say "we need to go back to this." I wouldn't mind if there were one section that were tight and grid-like, but I like variety in my maps. Shouldn't there be large open glades? The only large open areas are the pools of water. Anyone actually clamoring for "the old days" has never had to navigate those piles of dogshit.
>>736374402All they had to do is come up with the "PREPARE TO DIE" marketing with demons souls 2 that every fucking retard here fell for.
>>736392270>it's been over 9000 years since DK2>still haven't had a good dungeon management gameThe Dungeons series was alright I guess, but it wasn't nearly as good as DK.
>>736408882>it's the current yearWhat a staggeringly shit argument.
>>736412963I erased from my memory how sarcastic the narrator in the game was but for some reason every dungeon management seems to go for the same stick. Couldn't stand the dialogue in the Dungeons series. Every few years I start looking for a dungeon managment game and keep getting disappointed.
>>736368290It's not, because it's procedural. Procedural works at times, but a lot of the time it simply becomes too long and too predictable, so it's a chore without actual exploration or intrigue.
>>736413697The narrator in DK2 (and maybe 1 I can't remember) could be sarcastic sometimes, but in Dungeons he was sarcastic all the time and it felt like a Marvel movie.
>>736368236nowadays people would hate on it because it was "AI generated"
>>736368410This would be fine if the game wasnt so easy you can beat every enemy in the game after 2 hours of gameplay and those tombs contain nothing useful to you anymore and no challenge
>>736377238>automapIn a time not long from now, this industry will, bereft of the investor handouts upon which it has gorged and to which it has surrendered its vitality and fervor for its craft, collapse into near-nothingness. The contemporary developer—irresolute, passionless, hollow—will be swept away by the vengeful winds of this collapse, taking with them all the trivial and banal refuse their well-moisturized hands had wrought. Following this, the casual filth which infest this space will flee and crawl from the wreckage as vermin. And I will watch, and rejoice, as the purification of this once-hallowed hobby unfolds, liberated from the corrupting clutches of the normalfag to return once more to the righteous stewardship of the permavirgin poindexter.
>>736414517good for you or I'm sorry that happened
The problem with dungeons is that, on top of being repetitive, they're always associated with caves, crypts etc., which already limits the axpectative of the player like if you know a game has dungeons your immediate thought is "Oh, i've already played this exact thing in a thousands games"
>>736414886for me it's huge castle dungeons with completely nonsense, impractical architecture and interior designing I like imagining a schizo king going "YEAH BUILD IT!" every time a crazy idea popped into his head
