>22 years later>MMOs have actively gotten WORSE, not better, than vanilla WoWHow the fuck did it even get this bad?
Sigh, someone post the gatekeeping comic
vanilla wow was basically the best that can be done with the limitations caused by latency and any attempt to "improve" either made things worse or lost part of the formula that worked.also third worlders.
>>736554109MMO games are a relic of the pastThey were made in an era when the internet was interesting and had many different communities/forums/etc Social media, obsession with politics, and also ADHD ruined the internet
>>736554109>game is still tab combat in 2026mind blowing if Japan or South Korea didn't exist video games would stagnate forever now.
>>736554109trannies and homosexuals that got hired through nepotism and lgbt rights in gaming companies yet their coding skills are 1% of what a real coder who made vanilla back in the day.
>>736554109You only prefer old games because you were young and free back then, with limitless free time. You just want that again. The game itself is mediocre.Modern, 2026 games are just as good (if not better).
>>736554109Vanilla was made by really good designers that all left soon after, also insane amounts of crunch, conflicting ideas and compromises, it isn't really the game anyone intended to make, but a 'happy accident' that can never be reproduced. By the time Tigole took over the lead it all went to shit.
>>736554109vanilla wow effectively killed the genre because every other dev wanted to make a wow killer for the big bucks and blizzard kept pandering to the lowest common denominator so much that they killed their own game
>>736554109Because the last real new MMORPG that released is vanilla WoW in 2005 everything after it is a clone or has floaty button mash combat. Recently was playing Marvel Rivals and Overwatch and i couldnt believe how good and responsive every role felt to play in comparison to tank and healers in MMORPG's now, just imagine doing a dungeon and a boss does some big attack but you can use a shield with an actual hitbox like Dr Strange to keep your party safe instead.
>>736554425i still have limitless free time and video games are trash now because everything needs to be a copy of something else, but since no one knows how to actually improve anything, or even the balls to, they just make things worse and pretend its on purpose.If you told me 20 years ago that I could scroll through a list of >2750 games and find nothing interesting, I'd call you insane.
Why are RPGs the only MMO format that works?
>>736555046Because latency.
>>736555008Again, you're just older and jaded. Newer games are by and large better, you just associate old games with being younger, happier, and more free.
>>736554109vanilla killed the genre because it was developed to be a casual friendly game, unfortunately retards played it as a kid, believed they were playing a hardcore game and it just destroyed the idea of mmos being actually good
>>736554998Shut up retard. You actionfags are the most delusional fuckheads around.
>>736555129Newer games are monetized to hell and back, and are designed with teams of psychologists to deploy as many tricks as possible to retain your attention.
>>736555234I said action MMORPG right now have shitty combat but whatever makes you feel better.
>>736555129>there hasn't been anything new in video games, apart from monetization schemes, in decades>y-you're just j-jaded
>>736554109It's so bad that koreans finally are breaking away from MMOs and making single player games and topping steam charts and printing money. MMOs are officially dead.
>>736554109WoW was always terrible, but you and most of the people who played it back then were just kids and didn’t know any better>>736555046Fortnite, Helldivers, Tarkov, Foxhole and Rust are all MMOs
>>736555397>i have no idea what mmo meansk
>>736555046MMO implies a constantly active world. What other genre can work with that concapt? If you take, say, a generic shooter or a platformer, what are players supposed to do in it most of the time? MMOs function through a carrot on a stick logic, you must have something to work towards to continue playing and RPGs have that covered with level/gear treadmill.GTA sort of does it afaik but it's sort of roleplaying also.
>>736554425TRVKE!But also the community (gamers in general) have become insufferable cunts, which in a social game means a worse experience. Gamers weren’t all bitter faggots 20 years ago, it was a more wholesome time.
>>736555461Explain why the games I’ve listed aren’t MMOs
>>736555534>>736555483>MMO implies a constantly active world
>>736554109WoW was too successful. Its themepark model was so popular it effectively killed the genre by making every other MMO conform to its model and thus stifled innovation in the genre. No mmorpg will never be as popular as WoW was during its peak
>>736555294The concept itself is retarded, that's problem. And your description was just more actionshit
>>736555624Every one of the games I’ve listed has this. While something like Fortnite vaguely fits this description, the other games fit it 100%
>>736554109turtle wow next thread
>>736555792>muh match based games are totally mmos yono.
offline MMORPGs are the future
>>736555763>Unable to give any argument aside from "no">That's problemDont you have some more old people to scam instead of posting on 4chan Pajeet?
>turdle wow new microtransaction
>>736555893What kind of cope is this?While we’re chatting here, loads of people are pushing the front line in Foxhole, liberating planets in Helldivers, and trading and losing mountains of gear in Tarkov. All with a long-term impact on the world. Aren’t these MMOs?Not to mention that Rust and Foxhole are literally faithful to the original concept of MMOs with their faction/guild wars, something WoW poorly copied and ruined
>>736555924>offline massive multiplayer online RPGWhat would Spiderman be without his spider powers?
>>736556189>muh match based games are tots mmos because they have progress bars in the lobby
>>736556295WoW isn’t an MMO because most of the game takes place in instances and you do everything via the menu
>>736555357>EVERYTHING is bad, hundreds of millions of people are wrong, and solely I am rightDo you realize how delusional you sound?
>>736556185sadly it's the only place making decent to high quality vanilla+ content
>>736556015An argument for what? Anyone with a modicum of interest in action MMOs already knows why they never work out. Surely you've played some, right?
>>736554109No they didn't.
>>736554190Have a (You) and learn what gatekeeping is you dumb faggot
Should I buy a WoW subscription?
>>736555046Planetside.
>>736556478>nothing new == badI'm fully aware that for every person who realizes there has been nothing but copies of copies of copies (except now with more gambling!) for decades, there's a bunch of children and third worlders having their minds blown by whatever shit publishers and indies push out. Morons who will fall for artificial engagement gimmicks, skinnerboxes, etc.The fact there are tons of morons in the world is not something anyone sane can deny. The fact they have full control over video games is also undeniable.
>>736556509>Anyone with a modicum of interest in action MMOs already knows why they never work out.You didnt read my original post correctly yet again. This is what we are going to do, i am going to ignore any of your dumb replies from now, you can seethe at a wall or at your fellow coworkers at the "Microsoft tech support center".
>>736554360I don't think the code is making the game shit retard. Faggots and trannies are making shit worse there, but its definitely not the fuckin' code.
>>736555483Is Wow even an MMO? Its world is just as active as in any live service multiplayer game. Nothing happens without the developers input.
Original Vanilla was made by a team of 30 neckbeards that loved the Warcraft universe. Companies are not working like that anymore.
>>736555534MMOs have a persistent world with a ton of players on the same server. Fortnite is a battle royale which is round-based with only 100 people. Rust is a survival game with a fairly large map but not really that many players either.
>>736556713>"everything's bad, everyone else is dumb, only I am right">again>but with some /pol/ thrown inOkay, whatever you say boomie.You're totally not coming off as jaded and bitter like I first (correctly) assumed, no, not at all.
>>736556750No one knowing how to write efficient code is making the games worse, yes.
>>736556796Blizzard was already a large Jewish company back then.
>>736556738Thanks for admitting that you've never played an action MMO, since what you describe has been a thing for over a decade.Also stop the self-hate, it's not healthy for your mental.
Because the genre is dead and like, two games hold a total non-competitive monopoly.
>>736556501>Turtle WoW>High qualityDude.
>>736556902Not sure why you keep equating "nothing new" with various terms for "bad." I'm fully aware there are tons of people where every copy/remake/duplication will be totally new to them.
>>736554109>*I grip my rim and spread my asshole open*Jump inside and I'll show you how.
>>736557036Name a better vanilla+ dungeon than Stormwrought Ruins.
>>736556891So the other games fit the description. Foxhole and Planetside literally have one huge server with loads of players and a persistent world for everyone. Helldivers also technically fits the description with its persistent galactic map and a ton of players influencing it. Games like Tarkov or PoE are also suitable, as they have a single server where everyone trades freely. Doesn’t that mean that any game with a persistent player economy will be an MMO?
>>736556189What did WoW copy and from who? I think the other anon is trying to argue for an MMORPG... not MMOs in general... what your describing is an MMO.>Effects from other games has effects on players in other games>Can find loot from other dropped players in an open world, can communicate with players to work towards the evac.>players meet up on worlds to kill aliens, bugs, or robots/cyborgsSounds pretty MMO to me man.
>>736556924Like what?
>>736557317>What did WoW copy and from who?WoW wasn’t by any means the first MMO, and loads of them featured various faction/guild wars, WoW had this too, only it was far worse completely devoid of any meaning or purpose>I think the other anon is trying to argue for an MMORPG... not MMOs in general...>>736555046 The original post I was replying to. Anon is literally trying to argue that MMORPGs are the only type of MMO that exists
>>736555685This is the only correct answer in the thread. Everyone wanted a slice of the WoW pie, so they copied everything WoW did until it became the norm. The damn retards even copied the bad ideas.
>>736554109name a single MMO that's not a lobby simulator.the best MMO today is VRchat.
>>736554109MMOs stopped being a second world to get lost in and became arcadey fights with heavy time gating person they didn't want to keep turning people into NEETs.
>>736557379like copy/paste code that the "coder" doesn't really understand vs actually understanding the code and coding specifically for the task at hand?
>>736554425I want a good MMO game, they havent made any after Vanilla. I've played all of the 'big ones', expansion here and there, the ug names and so. Other games are just not close to the polish and sense of scale AND the community as Vanilla WoW. You have to actually travel, enemies are hard and you got to communicate with people one way or another to progress. The 'side show' activities are all solid, have good sense of progression and doesnt feel like a 'must' to do. Today MMOs drop you 10 quests on log in and fifteen other trackers. Go there talk with this guy, choose this do that. Vanilla lets you feel it out.
>>736557739And vanilla WoW is to blame for this
>>736557036Turtle players are funny. They bitch about Blizzard and having a cash shop, then they run to a game that gives great quality of life services... for a """"donation"""". They're jokes that write themselves. Then they shit their pants at "OMG THEY ADDED A ROOM TO SHADOWFANG KEEP, OMG SOUL SOOOUL!!11!!!!1" they also talk about social aspects of the game being ruined, nobody talks still, generals are empty except starter zones, and you still need gear checks, consumes, and to know the new strategies the day they come out. They call Blizzard shit (they are) then go to private servers that do the exact same shit. The crazy part is Season of Discovery STILL did it better.
>>736557784how would you know? do you work at blizzard?
>>736557865Vanilla and TBC were still NEET central. Vanilla and TBC still had massive grinds, WotLK with the welfare epics and lack of world bosses is when things started shifting more casual. LFR is when the game finally went full casual.
How to fix WoW:>WoW 2:>Continues the story from end of the WotLK>Remove gays and trannies
>>736554109wow was the canary in the coal mine. you don't have any frame of reference because it was your first mmo.
mmos reflect the decline of the internet from nerd hobbyists to normies and brown people
>>736558034and retcon tbc character deaths plskilling kael'thas and zul'jin was so gay
>>736557970most "coders" openly admit they just copy/paste code.
>>736557784What in game is broken due to improper coding?
>>736557218This is not really a 'get them' as you think. Turtle's custom content is horrible. SWR is cool idea but complete shit design that doesnt do anything new. What you get is endless corridoors with 10 pulls each; you'd imagine they make better content THAN Classic but instead we got the shit-funnel-tunnel dungeons of the retail.>>736557948Kinda correct. Turtle focuses on completely wrong shit; and the version of the game is not really an improvement to Vanilla. More of a sidegrade really. The 'devs' just want to add their latest Donut Steel and COOL IDEA to whatever. Does Wailing Caverns, already notoriously long dungeon need two extra rooms with insane amount of mobs? Hell no.>>736557983TBC ruined WoW and it introduced welfare epics.
>>736558034>end of the WotLKYou mean "there must always be a lich king?"
>>736558117Pretty much. I wish internet was only for white people and maybe some east Asians.
>>736557983It was only like that because people were so bad. Just take a look at Classic. It turns out there was no magic, everyone just didn’t know how to play the game. Lots of normies played Classic at launch and achieved things that the average NEET from back in the day wouldn’t even dream of.
>>736558034>Remove gays and tranniesBro, they're the developers of the game now
>>736558158>you can't say copy/paste spaghetti code is bad unless you can name something broken by itgetting defensive?
>>736558119Them making the real Kael some shriveled up druggy in a dungeon also was pretty retarded.
>>736557265I only spoke about the games I've played. But I've seen enough Tarkov to say that it doesn't fit an MMO either. Just because there is inventory trading doesn't make it an MMO. And as far as I know, Helldivers is match based with progress being displayed in some galaxy chart thing? I don't know enough, but it doesn't look like an MMO.For all intents and purposes, when people say they want an MMO, they want a world that they log in to and are able to seamlessly roam around, see other players going about on their own adventure, and have incentives to choose to group up with other players to tackle larger goals that cannot be done solo. A sense of community that arises from those interactions, guilds, etc. Bonus points if it has a wide variety of things to do beyond combat and inventory management, adding to the sense of it being an actual world you can live in.
>>736558220>>736558117even the white people complained about "timesinks" like, ya know, traveling through a world.
>>736558274Ahh so you actually don't know? Good to know. Continue your larp them retard.
>>736558368Yep, copy/paste "coder" confirmed.Yes, copy/pasted code is less efficient, thus, worse, than competent code, as (you) don't understand how everything interacts, thus need to add more code to prevent conflicts, instead of addressing the conflict.
>>736558331>, they want a world that they log in to and are able to seamlessly roam around, see other players going about on their own adventureSo Classic WoW is pretty much only true MMO with some of the other oldschoolers like LineAge 2 etc.
>>736558502t. WoWbaby
>>736558183TBC cemented raidlogging, arena logging, and welfare epics. Flying as well which killed the game. WoW just fucking sucks I hate Blizzard for existing
>>736558567Please tell me a single modern game that has one persistent world where i can see people running around and doing their business?There got to be 1000 people online if i log in now.
>>736558451Yeah no shit you dumb faggot. (You) still have yet to tell me what is broken due to improper coding. Game is dogshit, but it runs ok. The game is shit because of improper coding, you'd have to be fucking retarded. The game is shit because of A LOT of other reasons that have nothing to do with Code. Like what 'conflict' are you talking about retard?
>>736556478yes.
>>736558647Old School Runescape
>>736558575>Flying killed the game>noooo i can't hang around in starting areas and grief anymore
>>736558701Thanks for making my point.
>>736558651>okay you're right but you still haven't addressed where I moved the goalpostslol
>>736558719Thanks for confirming (You) are literally larping. Have a good day retard. Ignorance is bliss!
>>736558183>TBC ruined WoW and it introduced welfare epics.Happened right when Blizzard got bought out by Activision no less. That was the beginning of the mass casualization but it got bad at the very end with Sunwell Island.>>736558230Classic and classic TBC introduced time gating though. At TBC launch you could binge on content, you could start doing SSC and TK right away whereas with classic that stuff was all time gated.
>>736558647>Went from classic to modernMoving it already.>one persistent world where i can see people running around and doing their business?Albion Online
>>736558760>jumping in on a conversation missing contextcouldn't be me
>>736558647Final Fantasy 14 is the last successful one with any major staying power. But there's still some indie ones like Project: Gorgon that are okay.
>>736558910You're the person who insisted code must be non-functional to be bad.
>>736554109>How the fuck did it even get this bad?Same reason the entire industry is circling the drain.
>>736558863No idea why you choose to misintreprent, but i exclusively asked for a 'modern MMO that has one persistent world that has 1000 people online if i log in'.Albion is not modern, nor is RS. I've played both games, and even in my argument i said > with some of the other oldschoolers like LineAge 2 etc.I dont know how you label Albion, but its definetly not modern; and its closer to 'old school' like the other examples.
>>736558937>one persistent world>collection of patchworked instances>literally nobody is out there "doing their business" because once the main story is complete the outdoor zone has zero value
>>736558331> see other players going about on their own adventure, and have incentives to choose to group up with other players to tackle larger goals that cannot be done solo. A sense of community that arises from those interactions, guilds, etc. Bonus points if it has a wide variety of things to do beyond combat and inventory managementTarkov fits this description to a tee. The only thing missing is an open world, but I don’t think it’s a defining feature of an MMO. Most MMOs these days are instance-based anyway. And you have your own little hideout that you can upgrade with the items just like in an MMO.>Helldivers is match based with progress being displayed in some galaxy chart thing? Yes, but the progress is shared among all players. Completing a single mission on a planet gives you something like 0.001% progress. So any action requires a whole bunch of players to do one thing. And technically, you can see other players, all the other ships you see in the sky are real players carrying out their missions. So it's what you described except for the open world. Clans aren’t in the game yet, but they’ve been promised, and there’s already a space station that’s controlled by voting. How is this not an MMO?>>736558857>time gatingHow is that supposed to make any difference? For most people, reaching max level back in vanilla era was a massive achievement. What you’re saying just proves that everyone was simply terrible at the game back in the day.
>>736558937FF14 is not 'one persistent world' tho. Its heavily layered and instanced (because they had to make the fucking thing to run on PS3). Its pretty good game otherwise but its is horribly disjointed and lacks sense of scale.
>>736558702>retard anon attempts to justify flyingLet me grab some popcorn, this should be good.
>>736559136>>736559171WoW is exactly the same these days. A bunch of servers that haven’t been that full for ages, and layers on top of that
>>736554425I played more vanilla wow in my late 20s than I ever did as a kid
>>736559161>How is that supposed to make any difference?Because in TBC you were hitting max level much faster and you could go through TK at launch. Meanwhile in classic they time gated all that content to stop NEETs from gorging on it and leaving everyone behind. If there's time gates, there's less reasons to no life the game and the normalfags don't fall behind. You basically HAD to call out from work when a new expansion dropped, if you hit max level really quickly when retail WotLK launched you were able to squeeze in 1 more naxx reset to get gear quicker. Now Blizzard delays the raids opening.
>>736559274It is. Its why my argument was that only Vanilla WoW and 'old school MMOs' fit the criteria today. Please focus.
>>736559274xivtroon spend most of their "game"time reading and yet manage to have abysmal comprehension, isn't it funny?
>>736559258but you already got blown the fuck out. apparently so hard you have yet to realize it.
>>736559395This seems like a rather irrelevant topic for this discussion. And as I said, these time gates were introduced because everyone had become much better at the game and would have finished absolutely everything in less than a month.
>>736559102>So Classic WoW is pretty much only true MMO with some of the other oldschoolers like LineAge 2 etc.>No idea why you choose to misintreprentTake your alzheimer meds old man.And Albion came out in 2017, how the fuck is that not modern?
>>736559274even with layering the world is nowhere as dead as xiv, mainly because there's jack fucking shit to do in xiv's overworld. nice try tho
>>736559514>flying is good actually>lmao that anon got destroyedYeah flying objectively kills world immersion, it kills exploration, it diminishes relevance to zones, and diminishes the entire game. This is a game, set, and match and you lost at every turn. You being a waste of oxygen think these are good things.
>>736554109
>>736558702>nooo I can't fly around on my sparkle pony and skip the entire gameRetailfags truly have mental illness
>>736555924They can be fun.But the limitation is strong.
>>736557218Epoch Wailing Caverns was amazing. I'm still so mad it got abandoned
>>736554425Elden Ring came out when I was 25 and i consider it an incredible game on par with some of the old classics, so you're wrong and retarded.
>>736559610People demanded flying because of people like (you) they didn't want to interact with. They couldn't just ban (you) because (you)'re also a paying customer.This is not saying its good or bad, just the simple facts.
>>736559136>>736559171I'd say it isn't a singular requisite. City of Heroes is an MMO, even if there are loading screens between maps.Also the layering in FF14 is very limited. The game lets you know when it's happening. Their approach to layering isn't really detrimental to the MMO feeling. However, what truly killed the sense of a living world was the ability to freely hop around to any server that they implemented. It destroyed all sense of server specific identity and community.
>>736559596I haven’t played WoW for ages, but back when I did, all the zones apart from the most recent one were absolutely deserted. I haven’t played FFXIV for ages either, and it was just as empty there, but at least you’d occasionally see people doing the main quest. The only MMO I know that fixed this problem is ESO, where progression isn’t linear and you can basically do whatever you like. I haven’t played it in ages either, but it seemed much more alive than WoW or FFXIV.
>>736559747That isn't a fact in any way shape or form and you pulled that information at of (You)r ass and stated it as fact.
>>736559747They added flying because they thought it'd be a cool idea. And the casuals bitched and moaned about it taking too long to get anywhere. Not because there are people who enjoyed travelling. That's retarded backwards logic.
>>736559812Only Elder Scrolls fanatics play ESO, the monetization in that game is disgusting and the entire game is an exercise in poisoning the well in order to sell you the cure.Imagine, just IMAGINE locking dungeons behind a paywall. And filling the entire game with infinity garbage crafting materials you can't carry unless you're paying the premium crafting container.
>>736559583We're basically in agreement, our idea of the framing is just different.But yeah, Hyjal was technically open at the start of TBC proper but the attunement required you to beat Vashj and Kael so you could only get 1 player through each week. But a group of 15 could probably clear it these days so if you split your raids up you could probably clear Hyjal on the 2nd or 3rd week after launch so the entirety of content being cleared within a month seems likely without time gating raids even with that insane attunement requirement.
>>736559925>>736559849The only people who didn't like flying are the people who could no longer gank. Simple as.
>>736559747You have a large amount of mental illness to even suggest that flying put in games because people can't spawn camp people in the open world.
>>736554205>also third worlders.this is it, mmos are unplayable thanks to fucking shitskins
>>736559747>people wanted less interactions with other people in an mmo and it's a good thing devs listened atschkualyt. pseud sharing his idiotic headcanon
>>736554205>>736560047remember two decades ago when blizzdrones defended the sub fee because it filtered out third worlders? what happened to that?
>>736559970You just pay a subscription, just like in those two MMOs we were talking about, you know. In the same vein I could say that WoW is garbage because it won't let me play beyond level 20 without a subscription. Imagine closing off most of the game behind a paywallBut ESO monetization is a bit of a nightmare with all these loot boxes
>>736560127it became irrelevant when third worlders could sell ingame currency in sufficient quantities to pay the subscription fee and more.
>>736556478>NPC cannot comprehend that there are actual player characters out thereYes, nigger, modern games are fucking garbage, it has nothing to do with being le jaded
>>736560106When one group of people is abusing "interactions," yes, people will wish for less interactions.
>>736560171not giving money to gacha games
>>736560028I only played PvE and, yes, flying was a neat novelty at first, but with time it became clear that it did more harm than good to the overall experience. It permeates into every part of the world design in a negative way. There's a reason they restricted it until you do a certain amount of exploration.
>>736560221>create a character on a pvp realm>be surprised you're getting gankedanon, I...
>>736560382yeah its so fun to get killed over and over and over by someone 50 levels higher than you this is why i went on a pvp realm.
>>736554425no, you fucking retard, mmorpgs actually have gotten way worse than vanilla wow. take your asmongold opinion back to r*ddit and kill yourself.
>>736560462>willingly select pvp realm>pvp happens>"i can't believe it"
>>736560462you were supposed to make friends along the way and call them when that happens loser. alternatively reroll on a pve realm if you cannot take the heat, not throw a nuke on world exploration and ruin the game so you can afk mid-air LOL
>>736560547>>736560573thanks for conclusively proving why flying was introduced and popular.
>>736559740The terrible launch killed that server so hard and then ascension raped its corpse and put in cryostasisI'm also mad because they had some interesting ideas and the new things they added that I got to play were good
>>736560691>I don't have an argument anymore so I will claim victorythanks for proving you're indeed a loser
they were trying to copy wow's income, they didn't care about making a good game in the process
>>736560909The argument is a small group of people abused "interactions," resulting in the majority wanting less interactions.
>>736559747nobody demanded flying blizzard just wanted a sexy feature to put on the box
>>736561035there was a myriad of ways to discourage the interactions you're talking about that would not result in making world exploration moot. it was a bad decision and they never should've introduced flying
>>736561202its just strange to still be this mad they took ganking away from you.
>>736560028flying made ganking worse idiot, now you had max level characters dive bombing you from off screen
>>736561261nice strawman assumption. I always played on pve realms because pvp in mmo's sucks. I'm mad they ruined the WORLD of Warcraft by adding flying if anything
>>736561035Majority was playing on pve realms though. Flying wasn't introduced because of pvp, even if carebears that somehow ended on pvp realms benefited from it, that is just schizo talk.
i like how this thread asking what happened to mmos now has three different ex-gankers proving what happened to mmos
>>736561202sadly, there was no way to get rid of (you), making all efforts moot.
>>736562054nice reddit quip newfriend. that probably sounded in your head like what a protagonist of your favorite anime would say
xfers killed pvp more than anything, most servers were 99-1 by wrath
The biggest issue I have with modern MMOs is that they just dont feel immersive. They feel more like Monster Hunter hub as opposed to a living breath world. Just places where you queue for a dungeon and it transports you there. There's no more adventures and no more community. I can't play any of the modern MMOs like XIV, WoW, ESO etc cause they don't feel like real worlds.
>>736554205>>736560047Poltards like this and the opposite of a poltard unironically ruined mmos.MMOs were great because of the naiveness of its players.Even some of the bad ones, like pure grind simulators and korean shovelware, were great because of the organic community that just wanted to have fun, without their minds poisoned by politics and ideologies.Once polchuds and woketroons step in, everything goes to shit. The extreme of both sides are a cancer to every form of entertainment.
>>736558575For what its worth, I think Blizzard kind of regrets flying too. I was at a presentation about game design kaplan gave probably about a year ago, and he mentioned that they try not to be afraid to give players fun things even if the balance isn't perfect since their patch/expansion cycle meant that could always walk it back later, but they also had to keep in mind that some kinds of "fun things" couldn't ever really be taken away once given. He specifically named flying as an example of the latter.
Come home, straight white man.
>>73656384090% of botters are from 3rd world shitholes, so they do have a point
>>736563849the original noclip flying implementation is shit, if it was more like gliders it would be fine
MMOs nowadays are all designed like single player games with optional multiplayer until you queue for content that forces you into a group. Guilds turn into high school drama or second jobs, nobody engages with the setting, people spend their downtime gossiping about sex and politics in the chats. The stories they include to tempt you on are terrible and written very badly. MMOs were at their peak when they provided a solid frame for you to flesh out using your own imagination, in such a way that you felt like your character was just as much a part of the world as all the important quest NPCs and other shit. Devs nowadays try to manipulate players into feeling that way while simultaneously taking away the things that create immersion. Every little thing is now part of some big time-vampire scheme to get you to commit to more daily/weekly/monthly objectives purely for the sake of making your numbers go up. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if they were capable of working them in in a harmonious sort of way, but they're not. You will pay for the privilege of running on a transparent plastic hamster wheel.
>>736563947>can instantly tell that is the female draenei rig
the gameplay is better
>>736564367paying for the privilege of doing chores and daily log-ins gotta be the most cucked thing ever.
>>736563590The last MMOs I played that felt like a real world were SWG, EVE, and UO. Absolutely not a single theme park piece of shit felt like a real world. WoW was laughably artificial. Yes, even vanilla.
>>736554109Because they realized that MMOs as they were, were too try hard and for smelly no life nerds. They were not a sustainable model once these people died and they didn't want other people to fall into it and become those people. They made it worse, so that normies would play in their brief free time, which not only caused them to get more money, but also rested their morals. Remember, that is the main concern of these people>I'm a bad person for making a good game. Lets make bad game so nerds can't be happyThat has always been the goal. Deprive you of things you like so that they feel good about themselves.
>>736564787The last one that felt real for me was FFXI back in the mid 2000s. You couldnt even step outside the city without being shit on by monsters the same level as you. Everyone worked together and people achieved things as a community. None of the theme park MMOs are good. They're all so fucking shit. Ive come to realise most of the people who play them simply didn't play MMORPGs back in the 90s or 2000s and simply dont know any better. Hell, half of the people in my FC when I did play XIV were brand new to the MMO scene, and XIV was their first MMO. Disgusting really
>>736557837>vanilla>hardOk retard
>>736557837vanilla was never hard, wowfetus. play a game that punishes you on death b taking away your xp and levels and then we'll talk
>>736565090FFXI felt nothing like a real world to me.
>>736554109rising server costs, unwillingness to pay for a subscription when so many high quality, free alternatives exist. Young people only care about what they can play on their phones
>>736554109I cant imagine people these days want to tardwrangle up to 40 players including themselves. I also sometimes wonder how much more strain modern combat systems have on a server with actual hitboxes instead of those classic right click and distance based games.
>>736565232That's just losing time, losing time isn't difficulty.
>>736565338>Young people only care about what they can play on their phonesit's not even that, the brains of zoomers and gen alpha are completely fried. they literally cannot just sit down and focus on one videogame, all they do is juggle between 50 f2p slop games, usually gachashit, they do their 5 minute daily chores and then jump to tackle the next 5 minute daily slop
>>736564787>EVE>felt like real worldIn what fucking universe? EVE is one of the least immersive MMOs ever.
>>736562437You proved his point. What ultimately killed mmos (and rts) is communities being filled with people like (you) that no one wants to interact with. (You) are here because it’s the only place people can’t ignore/block (you).
>>736565338>rising server costs> unwillingness to pay for a subscriptionBullshit. Games exist with less then 10k player counts but they do just fine and continue to get active development, even a game with 1/4th of that would be well off with a 13 dollar a month sub.The latest version of TBC and Vanilla classic did way better than the last time and they also both did better then their original launches. People very obviously want WoW like that and prefer it that way.
>>7365596422018 - 12?
You guys need to accept that MMOs didn’t just copy WoW because it was popular. World of Warcraft itself cannibalized every other game’s player base because it was just that much better than everything else in 2004. Entire dedicated MMO forums rebranded into WoW forums because people were only posting in the “other games” or “off-topic” section
>>736554271Look at this brainless retard. This is exactly why companies don't need to innovate. There are millions of retards who think like this.Holy fuck kys
>>736566526Most active MMOs at the time just straight up died. What also happened was every MMO developed after wanted to be a "WoW killer" and just copied what they did but worse. MMOs in the later 00's were developed with the "We want the Call of Duty audience" mindset but for PCs instead of consoles
>>736566526retarded suits copied wow because it has big numbers so it must be doing something rightwhen the reality is that an entire generation played a warcraft game at some point in life
>>736565452>tard wrangle up to 40 playersPlaying with 39 bots on a vanilla and tbc single player server was horrifying. All the bots in blue gear and molten core trash dying in seconds, bosses barely lasting a minute. I still remember my vanilla guild wiping to trash and hitting enrage timers on baron geddon and garr. Meaning more than half the raid was afk
>>736565338server costs are far lower than they used to be
>>736554205Thread could have ended here.
the only reason WoW was really successful is because they basically made the game soloable. They looked at games like EQ where you couldnt do shit alone and went>hey, why dont we let it so people have the option to team up?and of course, since being able to level up without waiting hours for a party gives you instant dopamine, it was successful.
My first time playing wow was in early 2007 and even then i thought that it's the most boring shit ever made. Don't think i even got to lvl 20. And that's after playing several korean grindfests. At least in those you spend time killing shit, not walking for 15 minutes doing a poorly written fetch quest.
Nobody wants a job you have to fucking pay to even log in when there are countless fucking games out there that are just better and actually fun. And the "oh my god look 50 players in the same location!" gimmick ran its course now that every goddamn genre can support it.Plus modern day internet is full of people who are simply not worth interacting with.MMOs are a derelict genre of the past and the only people still playing them are people living in the past.
>>736567185Wow also was quite well polished and fleshed out on release which was possible due to its long development cycle. The million Wow clones that failed were nearly all buggy messes or had no end game to speak of
>>736567185UO was soloable from day one
>>736554109That's what happens when you open up a game to more players, especially players who are so bad they can't avoid standing in literal fire.
>>736567343I know at least a couple zoomers who were really into classic WoW. /v/ is similar to Blizzard in that neither can actually understand that that version of the game has everlasting appeal. It has the perfect balance of casualizing the genre while also not fully sanding down every obstacle the way retail and FFXIV do for example
>>736567647classic was a mockery of the real experience, 100% chance those zoomers only played the game because of its popularity among addicted millenials
>>736554109>posts the reason why MMOs have gotten worse>"How did MMOs get worse after this game released????"You'd shit yourself if you saw the quality, imagination, and mechanics from pre-2004 MMORPGs. Hell even some that released nearly at the same time had mechanics that today seem impossible, I'm looking at you SWG.
>>736554109Except there is a good MMO. It’s called FFXIV and it’s the world’s most popular and critically acclaimed MMO with over 30 million players. It’s also a massive global cultural phenomenon with countless references in pop culture, several real-life conventions this year and even a billboard in LA. Why aren’t YOU playing the world’s best MMO?
>>736556185reminder there are no pay to win options in the store, only convenience tools. nobody will win a pvp match because they have the portable banker/auction/ect or the 36 slot bag
>>736556185doesn't blizzard wow have a combination AH/bank/mail mount that costs $90? how does that compare to that stuff?
Anons please, is there any game out there that can stimulate my wanderlust the way classic wow leveling can? Or should I just resub and go on another journey like 20 years ago. All single player RPG's are so fast and streamlined and don't really provide a sense of scale and wonder the way MMO's do.
dead genre
>>736568851turtle wow nordrannar server
>>736568851wow single player project
>>736565180>>736565232The game is in completely different level on difficulty than any of the braindead MMOs we got today where you swim through content and everything bursts into rainbow of loot.There's a reason why they had to remake the leveling zones in the Cataclysm, since there were 10% of playerbase who never reached level 10. Yeah.
>>736569094Retail is literally 1000x harder than vanilla
>>736563840Poltards ruined video games in general
>>736569202In end game and raids? Yes. I was talking about leveling experience.
>>736568950What about Ambershire?
>>736563947what server is that?
>>736569574If it's being shilled unprompted it has to be turtle
>>736569372You know part of the reason WoW was successful was specifically because leveling was easier than its contemporaries, right? You have to limit yourself to one death to make vanilla leveling exciting.
>>736569930>easierwhy the fuck do "people" conflate wasted time with difficulty?
>>736570036On most MMOs before WoW fighting overworld mobs 1 on 1 solo was not viable, wowbab.
>>736569880you're shilling more than he did considering he didn't even namedrop itunless you are samefagging, which you probably are
>>736563840Its naivety, ESL.
>>736555792Planetside 2 is an action game that is an MMO because it has a large persistent world containing active gameplay. None of the games you listed have a large persistent world. (You)'re just being deliberately retarded at this point.
>>736570036>>736569930It's a hard truth, something that is impossible for people to understand if they haven't played any of the pre-wow MMORPGs. That's not to say WoW is/was bad, it's just that it was far far easier and faster to level up compared to any other existing MMO at the time. And yes we're not just talking about time investment, we're talking about skill, knowledge, planning, and most of all teamwork.
>>736570141>forced interactions>difficulty
>>736570465Finding competent players is the hardest part of MMOs.
>>736570438There's no point having this discussion with vanilla WoW addicts. Most of them have been cycling between private servers with boosted exp for over a decade, and ever since official classic launched they've just used add-ons that tell them exactly what quests to do and where to go to level optimally, or they get boosted by a Mage. Then they'll pretend like they're playing a hardcore real MMO experience. They're absolute fucking frauds that would be filtered on both the modern side by heroic raids (not even Mythic lmao) and gathering a basic xp party in an older MMO like FFXI.
>>736570213naïvetécheck a fucking dictionary you fucking pseud
>>736567969And the worst main quest in the history of MMOs.
>>736570886are they in the "casuals" in the room with you right now?
Maybe,just maybe, if the genre wasn't saturated with neets wanting a job they never had in a game for the smidge of human interaction and willing to give hundreds to snake oil scammers promising them that we would be in a better placeIt's literally filled to the brim with scammers promising the world, you don't see this anywhere else but MMOs are like a dime a dozen
>>736570936I speak English. There are no diacritics in the English alphabet, retard.
Only MMO that had potential was new world. Sadly Indian coders fucked it all up
>>736554109Everyone copied all the worst parts of WoW because it sounded good on paper and WoW was popular.Every single "innovation" to the genre that WoWc made was in fact to it's detriment.
>>736554425>limitless free timedid you not go to school? did you not have homework? no household chores? why do people say that kids have unlimited free time, you only have less free time than a kid if you're a parent, otherwise being a wagie is not too different from being a kid in school
>>736571470Vanilla wow's innovation was taking everquest and making it more casual with better tech.
>>736571674Their biggest innovation to the genre was the exceedingly terrible quest system that had plagued MMOs and RPGs ever since.
>>736571470It's almost like QoL features are bad for video games, especially ones that were built around the idea of playing with others, socializing being important, and enjoying the journey over the reward.
>>736569930it’s still more dangerous than retail, you could stop attacking a world mob in retail and it would probably take 10+ minutes to kill you
>>736571867this, theres a difference between difficulty and an actually balanced game, vanilla isnt hard but its somewhat balanced
>>736571793Grinding mobs sucks, questing to max level is way more enjoyable. People didn't like the super autistic ultra hardcore aspects of everquest, the autists that did were always a minority which is why wow took off and became #1 while everquest died.
>>736554109>There's a gnome in the pictureHow the fuck did I never notice that?
>>736555397Mmo= LOT of players and a constantly active world >Fortnite100 players max, round per round>Helldivers4 players max, mission per mission>TarkovNot a lot of players, extraction per extraction>FoxholeLot of players but the world end when the game is over>RustLol, lmao even
>>736571936>questing to max level is way more enjoyableIt literally isn't. It's objectively worse, you're grinding monsters to max level, but it's done its the specific set of mobs in an order and amount the devs set out for you. Its almost the same but without the freedom of adventure.
>>736569552nordrannar is cross faction can group and trade and communicate and guild, ambershire is no more traditional wow server with factions hard locked out against each other, nordrannar is more fun in my opinion because you can group with the opposite faction but still fight them in pvp ect its a fresh new feel to the game that doesnt take the spotlight
>>736554109OSRS and BDO are the last two good MMOs on the market, simply by their sandbox nature.
>>736572223>sitting in one spot and killing mobs for several hours>freedom of adventure
>>736571867>retadin talking about difficulty
>try out twow>all the servers are PvElmao. Why are third worldies so afraid of RP PvP? This seems to be a common trend in wow pservers.
>>736572429>run back and forth between 3 NPCs and the same spot killing the same mobs and collecting flowers mechanically unrelated to the herbalism skill.That's a you problem. You don't have to sit in one spot killing the optimal mob, you can explore anon.
>>736569372Both equally trivial, vanilla is just padded out to milk subs
>>736572805lmao nobody fucking "explores"
>>736554109everything went wrongPlayerbase, devs, cultural shift, internet, social media. MMOs truly got the shittiest end of the stick. It changed from the nerd's hangout to a sweaty tranny dance. WoW is the failed potential poster child, who got straight As and now warms up spoons on the abandoned playground. Its sad but there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.
>>736572354>nordrannar is cross faction can group and trade and communicate and guild, ambershire is no more traditional wow server with factions hard locked out against each otherAre you retarded or did you accidentally change them?
>>736572857>tfw playing Pantheon with grid paper drawing the world and making notes of mob spawns and killing as I go.Once again, sounds like a you problem. Sorry you need the developers to hold your hand.
>>736554109>how did it even get this badsuits want more boats so the games must be dumbed down so they can maximize the amount of profit they get by appealing to morons
>>736572676I've legit just tried it and started on a pvp server are you dense?
>>736554109WoW is garbage, so I'm not sure your analysis is worth anything.
>>736554109Because vanilla WoW was the perfect blend of serious and casual, once they added flying mounts and blood elves it was all over
>>736572676Gamers are faggots nowadays, simple as. It's just the way things are, culturally. People can't even be assed to take minor risks in virtual worlds, they just want to rest on their e-laurels. Mandatory full PVP Runescape back in the really old days was a transcendent experience that really can never be matched. You'd get 500 players and in a month it would be discord drama, rape allegations, total game death.
LMao.
>>736554425Kek. MMOs have actually dumbed down in order to be accessible by phonefags. OP is right in that we've regressed to 90s era gameplay you'd usually only find on a browser game.
>>736571846The idea of calling things that reduce required interactions for basic play “Quality of Life features” should tell you a whole fucking lot if you had any self-awareness.
>>736573815That's how modern gamers see it, they don't want to talk to people to form a party, they want to hit the queue button. When they hit that button it automatically finds a party for them, picks the content, teleports them there, and has the entire party ready to go in seconds.That is Quality of Life, that is what they want, that is what sucks the purpose out of a MMO and video game in general.
Isn't getting worse the the case for all games?
>>736564367>Video games have turned my kids into wage slaves – but without the wageshttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/31/video-games-have-turned-my-kids-into-wage-slaves-but-without-the-wages
>>736573898No, they don’t want to talk to (you) and the chance of someone being (you) is high enough that it’s just not worth it. If you don’t know who (you) is then (you) are (you).
>>736574237I think you need a refill on your prescription
>>736574342Thanks for proving the point.
>>736554109I dropped WoW like a brick during my trial... I got to the first dungeon with the werewolf guy and the UI for healing was so beyond dogshit I couldn't bear sticking with it.
>>736571936They are both absolutely fucking horrible. 0/10. Would refund a game instantly if it had that gameplay outside of an MMO.
>>736554109Real MMO players quit. Now everyone wants a single player experience outside of ERP.
>>736575281We quit because we hated interacting with eachother eventually.
>>736573674Can you show me a browser game comparable to retail wow?
>>736554109You can't make something like an MMO at scale with modern AI and graphics expectancies without an army. And you eventually dilute the dev pool with retards that ruin everything.
>>736575867Quake Live
>>736566627>looks at modern mmo's Yeah, so where's all that innovation?
>>736576119I really don't think people care that much about graphics. The most popular MMORPGs are old, at least 15 years old (discounting development time. Art style matters a lot more than high graphics
>>736572168This.The closest thing has to be PlanetSide, but even that has some of the disqualifying traits of the other games you mentioned
hardcore sandbox mmos have the same problems arena shooters do: tons of demands on the internet to make it, but every single time a new comes out it either fails or becomes a niche game kept alive by a small playerbase. the reality is that these kinds of games are simply not popular and people who actually like the genre need to deal with that and stick to whatever niche game manages to survive instead of making posts about how there needs to be more made.
>>736576119High end graphics are a hindrance to MMOs, as the other anon said artstyle matters far more.
>>736576247>1 button gameplayCloser to vanilla no?
>>736556189>MMO "Massively Multiplayer Online"None of these games are "Massively"Try learning the definition of something you're trying to argue
>>736576817>but every single time a new comes outThe last one that came out released in 2003.
>>736576890arena shooter niggers say the same thing. "um, actually the last arena shooter came out in 2001" and then they pretend that every one after that doesn't count for whatever arbitrary reason
>>736577032Ok, name every "hardcore sandbox MMORPG" released after 2003.
>>736577138albionalso lol are we gonna say that games that still get regular updates but were released 20 years ago don't count despite the fact that you can play them right now?
>>736577257Jeez anon you got me there, albion, 23 years, whew.
>>7365773282017 was not 23 years ago
>>736577451Do they not teach math in whatever country you are from?>>736577138
>>736577580albion was released in 2017
>>736554360based but you forgot women.
>>736560127>Get told that games need to charge a sub fee to avoid microtransactions>Every MMO with a sub fee now also has microtransactionsI am beginning to think sub fees are an archaic holdover from when servers were fucking expensive and in no way boost the quality of the games or communities they are attached to.
Come home...
>>736555792>>736555624>hurr durr definition warNo one gives a shit.
>>736572676Because WoW world PvP in vanilla absolutely sucked and only retards disagree. It was 99.99% of the time a one sided gank where a rogue or druid killed a leveling player in the middle of a mob fight.
>>736577856They are still important for keeping out the riffraff, look at PoE for example.
>>736578016i'm not paying for everquest lite
>>736555924>take Erenshor's gameplay systems>put them in EQ, WoW, UO, etc.Please tell me it can be done
>>736566025>(You) are here because it’s the only place people can’t ignore/block (you).Not exactly true. People are here because people get banned for having different opinions on other sites. You can filter people here, so really your point is stupid.
>>736572168 So all these modern old MMOs like FFXIV or WoW aren’t really MMOs anymore, because they’re all tiered and haven’t been massively multiplayer for ages. Most servers are dead as a fuck, and even the most popular ones can't be filled to even half capacity. What's more, WoW literally had official servers that reset progress from time to time, does that mean they're no longer MMOs? Does an MMO cease to be an MMO when it changes its progression system or shuts down?
>>736581570It's kind of crazy that Koreans saying fuck it and made a single player not MMO and it brought them nothing but success
>>736580029Ah yes, I filter anonymous, good point.
>>736581647The truth is that the average MMO fan (especially WoW fans) simply wants a single-player game with the grind of an MMO.
>>736581957that is true, CD proved it
>>736581957What attracted most people to mmos was the size and scale promised. Not the forced social interactions.
>>736555129If that's the case why have I enjoyed so many games from the early 2000s I never played back in the day? Checkmate swarthoid
>>736582126It’s nothing new really. Dragon’s Dogma fits that description too.>>736582235Interaction with other players was the main selling point of MMORPGs, at least until WoW destroyed the market. The main selling point of older MMOs was that you could interact with loads of other people Open-world games already existed before WoW came out, you already had games like Morrowind.
>>736582387No open world game had the sheer scale of an MMO in terms of size. We can go tile for tile and I promise you MMOs blow shit like Morrowind out of the water in size. CD was closer to an actual MMO world. Which is why Skyrim looks like a tiny ass mini game by comparison. You underestimate just how large MMO worlds are compared to single player games. Dragons Dogma is fucking tiny compared to CD. CD is the very first game to have this level of size. And that is a key point in what that anon is getting at. People want something of this scale, not filled with slop but things that make you go hmm I wonder whats over here I want to travel and see. MMOs are the only open world games that have that sense of scale, Skyrim is tiny by comparison to most MMO worlds.
>>736568851If you really get a kick out of exploring the world, check out Ascensions Bronzebeard server. Ignore getting lost in all the other bullshit, but the world items system is fucking incredible and really brought the rpg feel back for me. If Blizz does something similar with C+ maybe I'll actually give them a cent again
>>736563840the ruination transpired before the takeover of politics online
>>736582530WoW, without all the expansions that have been released over the years isn’t actually that big. And CD isn't that much bigger than Ubisoft games. CD is actually comparable to larger AC games, but it’s still smaller than their biggest maps like Odyssey. Dragons Dogma is very small by the standards of open-world games
>>736571158In which case it's still naivete, unless you're a filthy bong
Is Return of Reckoning any good?
>>736556630I said that works.
>>736583327I always enjoyed it despite the jank. That said, If you live in North America you can forget about it. 80% of its population are europeen.
>>736554109>WoW has gotten worseSo worse that for the first time in gaming history they got surpassed by FFXIV.>>736558034And kicking out those hair-dyed liberal obese ogres that makes the lore even more woke.
>>736582831>world of warcraft at launch, judged by current standards of open world games, isn't that big compared to current year gamesyou're a fucking retard.
>>736554109i'm new to midnight and am itel level 247 what should i do now
>>736583631Sorry but FFXIV will never surpass WoW as long as WoW Classic exists.
>>736583920quit while you're ahead
>>736583906I'm not sure where you've got that from. CD stands for Crimson Desert
>>736556270What would spiderman be without his man powers?
>>736582387>Interaction with other players was the main selling point of MMORPGsThat would mean the target audience would be exclusively failed extroverts, and not the introverts that would be the primary demographic on the internet in 2004 and before. read: world of warcraft was successful because it served the demographic that was actually interested.
>>736583979hmm, lets see>>736582831>WoW, without all the expansions that have been released over the years isn’t actually that big.gee how could i have ever gleaned >>736583906 from that. its a fucking mystery.
>>736583953>Muh WoW will never surpass your FFXIV! (farts)It's the truth. FFXIV surpassed WoW during their awful Shadowlands expansion.>>736571023Stormblood and Dawntrail may not be popular expansions, but not as worse as WoW's Shadowlands expansion.
>>736554109MMOs are a product of their time.People now have social media.
>>736554425That's funny because I played a new mmo made in the old style of world and gameplay and it was fun as fuck.As opposed to the soulless slop of these past 15+ years.
>>736554109Just admit you can't handle complex games
>>736584470>retail WoW>complexLmao
>>736584024How do you fail at being an extrovert? You either are or aren't one.MMOs in the beginning were targeted at introverts (read: computer nerds), however MMOs were a palatable form of social interaction that they wouldn't otherwise get. People could portray themselves as whatever they wanted instead of the schlub they were, and they at least had something in common with the people they encountered.Forced grouping from back then was like that meme of the bird eating the cracker. Introverts think they don't want it, but it turns out it tastes good and the memories from other players is the thing they remember the most. And the thing about grouping back then is that you basically picked a spot, and the fights were tank & spank. Anyone felt comfortable grouping up without knowing a bunch of retarded Simon Says 1 shot mechanics, glitch shortcuts or exploits, or whatever the fuck else goes on in modern MMOs.And for those that were really antisocial, but enjoyed existing in a persistent world just being around other people, there were classes that could solo to an extent.
>>736584992>How do you fail at being an extrovert?You're ugly.
>>736585327
My turdle character's butt
turdle character in grim reaches
>>736554109why can the retarded faggots on turtle wow not figure out how to make good patches? some of the shittiest players on there and the gms are all troons/faggots
>>736584992the virtual chatroom concept doesn't work for mmos anymore because there are so many options that work better for that.
>>736586931Great shot
>>736588197eh I reject that premiseeven back then there were forums, chat rooms and instant messenger apps
>>736588489why would you use an mmo as a virtual chatroom when vrchat exists?
>>736554109Only reason to play MMOs were their huge as worlds which are not longer exclusive to them
>>736584992removal of forced socialization is really what killed the genreunfortunately all that old unc EverQuest shit is just too dated to go back to now, and people are too used to the pervasive mole people shit all MMOs have. I can't say I necessarily miss shit like "camps", corpse runs and losing exp on death, etc. much myself
>>736588563if my primary goal was to chat sure id use VRchatMMOs are still RPGs with big worlds with things to offer aside from just chatting to peopleI think what led to the downfall of MMOs was leaning into instant instant gratification
>>736588743Even if it got removed in game it would be enforced through Discord or other third party program/application by the community
>>736554109we didn't gatekeep our hobby hard enough
>everyone complains MMORPGs are dead and shit's too casual>these same people refuse to support any of the boomer nostalgiabait "old school" MMOs that come out>those who try them complain about the lack of all the modern soulless cancer QoL features that killed helped the genre
>>736554109DEI. >>736556542>He's pretending to play retail WoW.
>>736554205>>736554109but vanilla WoW was designed to be a dumbed down game that held your hand
>>736576842Foxhole and Rust are
>>736554109Even vanilla got worse after release. As soon as we got addons the game was made worse.But yeah the success of wow made everyone try to make a copy of it so they too could make billions, and it killed the entire genre. Meanwhile Blizzard was slowly crashing and burning because of wokeness and greed.
>>736576247>QL>Browser gameHow was the coma?
>>736588938Sinking time into boomer MMOs when they were relevant felt like a solid time investment. Your achievements and relationships felt like they meant something.It's hard to replicate that in niche memberberry MMOs that'll probably be shut down within the span of 2 years with your friends stop logging in long before that.
>>736554425Anon I have more free time now than I've ever had in my entire life and you're so wrong you should be killed.
We've known the issue for a long time but companies don't care. They all copied wow without copying what made wow what it was (actually being based on RPG mechanics and playing shit like D&D). They just went "oh yeah you need hotbars, a bag, and talent trees" and regurgitate that formula with a new coat of paint repeatedly while somehow taking away the massive online part more and more every time with the craziest dilution ever that even WoW itself partakes in it. Not to mention this weird fixation on "end game content" when that's the least important part of what makes an mmo what it is.
>>736584196Xiv never came close to wow
>>736584196What made WoW fun was the leveling experience, ffxiv have 0 difficulty and is completely meaningless to play, it's impossible to die.
>>736554109That nigga ain’t got no shield That dwarf nigga an NPC guardThat gnome bitch got her titty outThat elf nigga a demon hunter
>>736554109I like TESOIt’s certainly not on par with wow at its peak, but it’s not the garbage like modern wow or ff14
>>736554109MMOs are way too hard to make, let alone populate. You'd have to be insane to try and start one now to compete with the two titans that people have already invested a decade+ of their life into.As for why WoW sucks now, it's simply because the novelty is long gone. Everyone has been playing the game for decades and knows what to expect. You'll never level up in a strange world making friends getting incrementally powerful ever again. Also the game is solved before the patches are released, data scraping takes away part of the fun and personal development (finding things out for yourself).That vanilla wow progression was sublimely perfect. Every level mattered, everywhere you went mattered, every item you found felt like it mattered. Getting your mount was exciting. All the stupid mobile RPGs and gatchas haven't even come close to the addictive perfection that was vanilla wow's progression.
>>736589942>MMOs are way too hard to makeNo they're not lmao. There's multiple games, experiences, and results that show quite the opposite of this. UO came out like 30 years ago, if you can't do better than a game from 30 years ago you're actually just retarded.
>>736589686No. The leveling experience fucking sucked.
>>736590167No it didn't lmao
>>736589987if UO came out today it would die in obscurity
>>736554109Vanilla wow was pre in game monetization. Even blizzard can't compete because they have to monetize it. Even the players themselves try to monetize stuff in game too. Money ruined MMO's.
>>736590207Yes it did. Genuine dogshit.
>>736567343>modern day internet is full of people who are simply not worth interacting withthis is it
>>736589987I don't think you understand what goes into a massive world with 3000+ players on a server at a technical level. Zone boundaries, instances, looting/inventory, merchants, auction houses, outdoor bosses, etc. all functioning without problems for hundreds of people at once. Creating that infrastructure is a massive investment and you need live teams to help players with their problems, which they are definitely going to have.>UOOh yeah, a bastion of functionality that never crashed nor lost your progress. How to tell me you never played it without telling me you never played it. Vas Corp Por.
>>736590246No it wouldn't lmao. There's been at least 10 games whose entire existences are trying to replicate UOs feeling with their own spin.For reference, Albion online is averaging 10k players on steam right now if only 25% of that userbase is paying a sub fee that's 30k a month they're making. Not even including the money they made in the past when it used to have a buy price to play etc. They've made millions over the last 10 years or whatever. Project Gorgan made like 100k+ when it released last month.
>>736590345Sounds like MMOs just aren't for you.>>736590435Actually I know exactly what goes into it, and I played it among other games like it as well as developing a similar game myself.
>>736584196dawntrail was exactly as bad as shadowlands
>>736590574WoW is not a good MMO.
>>736590498Why aren't you playing it right now? There are official classic servers.
>>736590435companies were churning out a new MMO in a year or two in the 2000s it can't be that hardplus we have better tools now and MMO players don't care about graphics
>>736590574>You don't like *shitty game* with *retarded problems*? Well that means the entire genre isn't for you even though there are games that don't have this problem!Go fuck yourself.
>>736590670Because even though I like UO it wasn't my huge addiction mmo from back in the day and I'm more attached to Dransik Iso. I've played some UO here and there but it's not the dragon I'm chasing.
>>736590661WoW has tons of the design problems but the 1-60 experience is the best you can getIf you don't like that you don't like MMOs (or didn't actually play it and only played the fake and gay classic version or expansion leveling)
>>736590661Damn, for a bad game it sure holds all the player count records for some reason. Crazy.>>736590702>retards problemsActually he only mentioned one "problem" and it was incorrect. Leveling in WoW the first time was the best experience of WoW.
>>736590747No, it's complete fucking dogshit. Questing is shit and the environments are not fun or rewarding to explore. Theme parks are shit.
>>736590794I don't care how many mentally ill subhumans the game hooked because your broken brains get off on doing chores.
>>736554109it has absolutely nothing to do with the game and everything to do with the peoplei played vanilla wow solo in early 2005. it was extremely, painfully boring and i quit around level 40sometime in 2007, a while after tbc came out, i had some friends who talked me into playing with themit was fun and memorable and i kept playing all the way through wotlkthose friends moved on and it got increasingly harder every year to find people online who weren't gooner narcissistsmmos got worse because social cohesion got worse
>>736590805You're clearly a zoomer roleplaying as someone who actually played wow 20 years ago.>theme parks are shitThat's cool, OG Vanilla wow wasn't considered a theme park mmo and wasn't used as a phrase to describe it until everyone started copying it. It obviously wasn't a full sandbox open experience but you absolutely can choose to go do whatever you want wherever you want and goof off in plenty of ways.
>>736590839>it's not good>no don't use the metric that says something is good!!
>>736590919>OG Vanilla wow wasn't considered a theme park mmoWrong.>but you absolutely can choose to go do whatever you want wherever you want and goof off in plenty of ways.No you cannot. The way levels work in WoW prevents that.
>>736590919Sorry, I played WoW 22 years ago and thought it was shit. And I played EQ 26 years ago and thought it was double shit. You seem to be under the impression that WoW is the ur-MMO instead of only one way to do them. You're wrong.
>>736590974There's enough zones and options to have choices when leveling you're not locked to a zone in vanilla. Subsequent expansions had that issue and interestingly enough now it no longer is a thing at all as you can go level literally anywhere now with scaling, although scaling is gay and everything is so fast and easy leveling has become absolutely pointless.
>>736591084TheLevelingIsTheUnfunPart
>>736591023And what exactly do you consider a good mmo?
>>736591109Ultima Online.
>>736590894pretty much.
>>736554109Blizzard got it so right that every other MMO dev just opted to make inferior WoW copies instead of innovate. It's been 20 years and this is still the case.
>>736591101Your reading comprehension is shit, go back to school and graduate without using zoom this time you fucking moron.>>736591134So then why the fuck are you arguing with me when I already have mentioned and brought up mmos like UO being the best?
>>736591170Because I'm not going to sit here and be told something that was so fucking bad it made me physically sick to sit through was actually the best part of a game. The best part of it was group content which had nothing to do with leveling. No exceptions.
>>736591292Sounds like you just have autism and group content is the only time you've ever properly done anything with another human if leveling made you physically sick. You fucking loser, lmao.
>>736570213t. anglo cuck
>>736591505Autism would make me enjoy doing retarded chores, not hate them to death.
>>736554425nucca i have limitless time now, as a child i could only play from after school to 7:30pm
I had a friend that plays wow and ignored me when I wanted to play with them.
>>736591505leveling in wow and eq absolutely was horrible, though. i even played classic in 2019 and it was exactly as boring as i remembered it from 2005, i think i quit at almost exactly the same pointi suspect that a lot of the vanilla wow nostalgia comes from people who watched their dads playing it when they were kids
>>736591569No, it definitely doesn't. Autists put off chores as long as possible.>>736591619Why would someone be nostalgic for watching someone play WoW when they were a kid? That sounds absolutely retarded and horrendous. Leveling in WoW is fun because it's an adventure, and it's an adventure that only ever truly worked the first time and can't be replicated with modern internet.
>>736560127It worked. Until thirdies figured out they could make money selling gold.
>>736591713You don't know autists well enough because that in no way applies to digital chores.
>>736591292i guess it depends on server but leveling is pretty social>>7365916192019 was fun exactly for the above reason. there were so many people there was always some shit to get into
>>736591713I can't think of anything less adventurous than going to themed areas that are painfully artificial and doing kill and fetch quests until I run out of quests to do and have to move on to the next hub to do more kill and fetch quests.
>>736591713not watching "someone" play it, watching your dad play it. maybe dad put you on his lap and let you press the buttons sometimes and it became a huge part of your formative experiencemany of us who were already adults in 2004 found that the "adventure" (dozens of hours of dull, repetitive questing) didn't even work the first time
>>736588712correct. then>((("smart™©")))employees, who just so happened to be extremely obese, lesbian, and not white, decided that players needed more ways to just instantly teleport anywhere so that they didnt actually have to do any journey or over land travel like how you actually do in real life
>>736591793Other people do not make bad quality content fun.
>>736591857it was definitely old blizz (problematic white males) that decided to poison the well with flight in tbc
>>736591861if questing or grinding is all you count as leveling then yes, but there is group content all throughout the 1-60 parts of the game so that has to be fun maybe even good. no exceptions
>>736592064Except you exhaust available dungeons faster than you level with them, turning it into a grind of the same dungeons with no variety and a fuckload of travel time inbetween them. Spellcleave shit that plagues the modern game is only moderately less AIDS than questing.
my girlfriend cheated on me with her cousins boyfriend.
>>736592204that is a problem through the entire game and not leveling. its why people quit a month after reaching max lvl
What would quest be if not a kill/fetch quest?
>>736592503There is a very large variety of high level dungeons and more than one way to gear up. They quit because they're addicted to XP go up and when XP stops going up they stop playing.
>>736592935Figure it out.
>>736554109>I haven't played an MMO in 20 years and I'm an out of touch retard>here's my second hand opinion from ragebaiting Youtubers wow cool story bro can't wait to see the same thread next week
>>736591084>There's enough zones and options to have choices when levelingThere aren't. If you were levelenig through questing you had no choice but to do pretty much every quest in every zone.
>>736554109>demon hunter apparently cut late into vanilla's development, late enough for it to appear in advertising materials like op>no info of it exists in any of the wow classic beta material/data
>>736591101whats the 'fun' part then?weekly raidlog?
>>736593385name 3 good MMOs that released in the last 5 years
>>736593535Doing more challenging content with other people who have their heads screwed on straight. The only thing less fun than doing gay internet chores to get anywhere is being forced to do mindless XP grinding to get anywhere, exactly why games like FFXI and EQ were even more shit.
>>736593510There's a warglaive in the game files that you can use if you make your own private server.
>>736593595>Doing more challenging contentSo playing other games?Cause MUH COMPETITIVE RAIDING in wow always was more about preparation, class comp and ability to endure RL's psychopathic screeches.
>>736593705Other non-MMO games were better than WoW until they figured out how to make the best use of their unique niche, yes.
>>736554109>>736554205Vanilla WoW fucking sucked massive amounts of ass. It was a really, really, really bad game. And : >>736554425Is essentially right. You miss being 14 and having the kind of brain that can veg out grinding drops all day without wanting to kill yourself. I respect vanilla, I played vanilla. But it was a big case of: "We didn't have anything better". It was the biggest and best MMO at the time, but every patch and expansion for a long time was an improvement. Half the shit in vanilla, would make people riot these fucking days. Imagine playing a 40man raid and the boss can only take 8 debuffs. And if some fucking shadow priest applies Shadow Word: Pain, your sunder armor falls off, tanking the entire raid DPS. Or try having a 40man boss that drops 1-2 items. Need 4 zhevra hooves for a quest and a zhevra has 4 legs? Be prepared to kill a hundred of them for four fucking hooves. Oh you're a priest and you want to play shadow? Sorry sweaty, no slot for you. Wanna be a boomkin? Fuck you, wanna be an Ele Shaman? Fuck you Wanna be a dps Paladin? LMAO. And don't get me started on the fucking skill trees. People always say: "You could personalize your class!" The fuck you could. You could go with the obvious cookie cutter build, or you could make your own thing. If you're a priest and you thought you'll make some cool balanced hybrid thing by going 17/17/17 so you can heal some, shield some and deal some you unlock the secret ability: Not being invited to groups. Most skill trees had 1 very obvious choice where you took the damage skills, the +dmg the hit and crit chance if available, and then you usually had a handful over that you put in the next best thing in another tree. And look at the fucking raids! Molten Core! What does the final boss fucking do? He knocks back tanks and sometimes becomes immune while summoning ads. MIND BLOWING. The only reason he was ever difficult, was because it was difficult to equip your raid.
>>736554625>Vanilla was made by really good designers LMAO! Revisionist history at it's finest. Vanilla WoW had shit stats on gear that didn't do anything, because the devs themselves had no Idea how their fucking game worked. There was a god damn mage item with melee crit on it. What's the AQ 40 5 piece mage set bonus? 5% spell hit chance for 20 sec when your spells resists. The game was ANYTHING but well designed.
>>736594241>Vanilla is bad because muh raid content that represent 1% of the gameSpotted the min maxing retail fag.
>>736594539>AQ40 5 piece bonus is poorly designedThere is probably 0.01% of the playerbase that managed to get that set back in the days, who the fuck cares.Go ahead and name a better balanced MMORPG.
>>736594587Anon, everything lead to the raid. That was the main focus of the developers. Every fucking big patch was in service of either releasing a raid, or leading up to a raid. That was the game.Just because you had fun being level 47 and doing dungeons, doesn't mean the rest of us weren't helping our tanks get fire resistance. I mean, otherwise what the fuck are we talking about? The ability to sit in barrens chat and talk shit? Socializing in Ogrimmar or Elwynn forest? You can do that shit in every other MMO, ever. You can do that shit in VR chat. You can do that shit in god damn Roblox. Fucking OPs pic itself shows people fighting a god damn dragon, of course it's about the high end PvE experience. What the fuck else would you be talking about when you talk about MMOs being worse?
>>736594743>There is probably 0.01% of the playerbase that managed to get that set back in the daysOkay, this makes it not badly designed... how? Fuck, man, if anything it further proves my point: WoW was not made by really good designers. Or at the least the designers had no Idea what they were doing for Vanilla WoW. Like, do you think: "This set is shit, but it's okay, the game balance is so fucking whack that only 0.01% of the playerbase will manage to get it anyway" is good game design? Plus the fact that: It was an example. There's fucking COUNTLESS examples of really, really, REALLY bad items, stats and set bonuses all over vanilla. The mage AQ 40 one was just one I remembered off the top of my head. If we google "worst vanilla wow set bonuses" look what people say in the results: > The mage ZG set reduces the mana cost of arcane intellect and arcane brilliance.>But only by 5% >priest 2.5 5 set increases the duration of renew, yet all the 2.5 gear is spell damage, not healing >Hunter T2.5 reduces mana cost of arcane shot by 10%. That paired with the fact that the pieces have a small amount of spell power has to be worth something.>Both of the Priest AQ sets are ass backwards. AQ20 set is only Healing Power but 5% dmg increase to SWP and 2.5 is Spell Power but the set bonuses only matter for healing. >Druid t1 increases thorns damage, gives you 2% crit for spells, reduces the cooldown of Tranquility and Hurricane by 50%. >Blizzard was impressively bad at itemization in vanilla. Top 10 most useless things on gear/sets ain’t enough needs to be top 100 at least.>The Hunter T2 8set puts a debuff on the target that increases ranged attack damage on the target by 200. It proccs fairly rare. That's just set bonuses. You can go for individual items, with nonsensical stats, too. The point is not: "WoW designers bad because AQ40 5p bonus for mage underwhelming" the point is they're bad because item wise they had no fucking Idea what they were doing.
>>736577856Many things can be true at the same time. Another truth that stand next to it on its own is the fact that many teenagers who played during original WotLK are now SINKs (Single Income No Kids) and can be nickled and dimed for everything.
>>736595096>>736594743Oh and also, because I didn't have room:>Go ahead and name a better balanced MMORPG.Fuck off. That's not the point. WoW might well be the best MMO at the time, nobody is saying it's unplayable. But anon said it was made by really good designers, and the game is full of very obvious game design mistakes, that should have been caught. And funnily enough: The game designers themselves will fucking tell you that they had no Idea what they were doing. That vanilla WoW was a time of experimenting, of figuring shit out, of just stumbling ass first into things and seeing what sticks. It was full of fucking bad design. And the fact that there was nothing better around, doesn't change that. The argument was never that it wasn't the best. I would be retarded to claim that WoW was not the best MMO at the time. So stop trying to shift the argument away from "well designed" just so you can have a better point. It's not what we're talking about.
>>736569930No. Lol. This is such a stupid mantra people repeat cuz they never played the other games of the era or were living in the days.1. WoW had MASSIVE hype2. MASSIVE ad campaign3. Blizzard had only made hit after hit before it, and WarCraft was solidified franchiseLeveling experience had nothing to do with it, as stated; the opposite. The lvl 10 starting zones were so fucking brutal that 10% of playerbase (over a million customers) never left the fucking starting zone.
>>736594539>>736595216It was well designed in the context of 1-60 and casually doing dungeons. The game is a victim of being pulled in different directions by different people, if you only look at what it turned into after launch then yeah there's a lot of retarded decisions.
>>736594791Is this also your post?>>736595216You touched upon an interesting argument:>That vanilla WoW was a time of experimenting, of figuring shit out, of just stumbling ass first into things and seeing what sticks. Have you considered the possibility that obsession over high-end raiding IS ALSO one of those mistakes that hasn't been realized since then?
>>736577856>>736595203The truth is: An MMO can live just fine on sub fees, if they have a decently sized playerbase. However: Capitalism as always, ruins everything it touches. For WoW it started when they merged with Activision. At first, by all accounts Acitivision let them run Blizzard pretty hands off. And why not: WoW had 12 million subs, and they were making more money than god. However: 12 million players was never sustainable, and so their numbers sunk. Not "This is fucking dead, abandon ship" sunk, but: "Instead of all the money in the world, we're now making three quarters of the money in the world". And to a capitalistic entity like Activision: lack of exponential growth means death. Numbers actually going down means PANIC. So they looked into what other monetization schemes are popular, and they landed on in-game cosmetic shops. Likely Blizzard had still enough power to instill in them: "If you sell actual items, people will hunt Bobby Kotick like an animal". The in-game shop proved a success, and they added more and more shit to it, and even essentially legalized gold selling via the WoW token, which fucked the economy & PUG raids forever. These fuckers always need more and more profit.Hell, it's why they made Overwatch 2. They felt like Overwatch 1 was stagnating, money wise, loot boxes were fucking outdated and not a big money maker any more. But they feared the backlash of just introducing battle passes. So what did they do? They waited for the next major patch, and instead of saying it's a patch, they announced it as Overwatch 2. New maps, new characters, pretty big patch, but CLEARLY not a whole new fucking game. That's because the main purpose was to overhaul monetization completely. Put in battle passes. Make people pay. And it's even more clear now that they went: "Okay lmao, just kidding with the 2, it's just Overwatch".
>>736554109Vanilla wow is genuine dogshit only liked by the brownest BlizzjeetsTurtlewow fixed most of vanilla's issues
>>736573314>breake
>>736595518I stopped playing Overjew after that. I was already losing interest and then they canceled the story component so it was clear what was happening. The whole reason it was going to be OW2 was for the story mode.
>>736595473But it wasn't? You had dungeons with such fucking huge level ranges that players did parts of them and then did other parts of them later when they leveled more. It's stupid. And the experience is extremely different based on where you start. You can absolutely tell where in vanilla WoW the designers put in the most time and effort, and where they were they ran out of time & money. Who the fuck wants to level in Desolace? Again: Not saying Vanilla WoW wasn't the best around by a country mile. I just hesitate to call it "good". or "well designed". there's shit I love there, for sure. Don't get me wrong. But a lot of it, and I mean A LOT of it falls into the "We learned not to do it like that any more" category. >>736595475>Have you considered the possibility that obsession over high-end raiding IS ALSO one of those mistakes that hasn't been realized since then?I mean sure, from my standpoint the point of an MMO is still in large parts the end-game content. And I'm not saying modern WoW is flawless. For instance I believe one of the biggest mistakes they made was when they introduced the legendary items that you had to keep upgrading on a daily & weekly basis. Where the game absolutely devolved into:>Do your daily quests every day>Do your dungeon finder weekly>Do your raidfinder weekly>Do your M+ weekly>Do your weekly PvP activity>Do a battle pets battle>Do other shit I'm probably forgetting hereAnd I fucking hated that with a passion. Grinding new faction rep was one thing. You do that and then it's done, all good. But around that time, WoW turned into a mandatory grind of mostly mindless filler content. And like: I'm a progress raider. Was in a pretty high end guild. But I'm not an asshole. I was never one of those guys complaining that Raidfinder allowed casual noobs and forum dads to be able to see a raid. Who cares. No skin of my back. But FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, do not force me to do that boring fucking content every god damn week.
>>736554109MMOs are over. You have to accept this.Most Zoomies and all of Gen Alpha don't care about the format, so there will never be another MMO that could hold a decent player base over time.There is only WoW, and its various zombie states.It's over. It's done.You have to let go. It's time.Space post.
>>736590696I agree with your general sentiment but you are wrong.>churning them out in 2000sRecovery from the .com bubble up until the financial crash was strong. These days the whole market is bigger, riskier and more centralised at the top.>we have better toolsMore middleware yeah, but gamedevs and publishers don't hire software engineers or technical staff anymore. You can see it in modern AAA gamedev, all the technical skills are gone.MMOs are risky and high investment. Only indie devs will touch it because only indie devs are willing to take risks on new ideas.Also you ignore that the "MMO" genre for a lot of people is just synonymous with skinnerbox loot treadmills and shitty tab target combat. Anything beyond that isn't an MMO to these people.
>>736595593>Turtlewow fixed most of vanilla's issuesThey removed instanced content?
>>736596060>players did parts of them and then did other parts of them later when they leveled more. It's stupid.No, it's actually pretty cool.
>>736594743>Go ahead and name a better balanced MMORPG.EvE
>>736590696>>736596112Nta but:>churning them out in 2000sWe also need to remember: Games were significantly easier to make in the 2000s than they are now. There's a reason why in 1998 you could make an all time classic with 100 people, and in 2026, games have 40 minute credits. In 2000 you make a floor tile by creating a flat plane, and slapping a texture on it. In current year, you need to actually model a full 3D surface. The grouts between the tiles need to be lower, so your tile needs to be raised, with rounded edges. Does the tile have a rough surface or a smooth surface? Are there cracks in it? Skuff marks? Is it fully broken maybe? Does the player need to be able to break them if they do a slam attack on it? How reflective is the surface? Can your mirror objects in it? Does it scatter light? Is there dirt on it? Can the player track dirt onto it? Does each tile look unique? Is there a pattern? Does the pattern repeat? when does it repeat? And probably more and more and more and more shit I can't even think of right now. And before you go:>But anon, who the fuck cares about tiles like that??You're right. But this is an example. Exchange tiles for literally any asset in the entire game. Houses, Huts, torches, tables, walls, weapons, sand, snow, you name it. And not every single one of them needs to be detailed out to the max, but if too many of them are too low quality? Guess what? Your game looks like shit now. Literally every single thing is more complex by orders of magnitude now. And it's not like we can go back. Indie game flavour of the month games can get away with looking like Megabonk because it's a charming retro moment. You try releasing an MMO in current year that has the graphical fidelity of 2004 WoW, people will ask you if you're having a laugh. Doesn't mean it needs to be the 2026 equivalent of Crisis, but still, you have to spend a lot more to make a big game these days. A lot more.
>>736596664Minus the bump mapping shit I 2nd this anon's post
vanilla wasnt even that good
>>736596060You retail players are all mentally ill
>>736596664I really don't think people care that about graphics
>ctrl+f archeage>0 resultsbunch of amateurs talking hereIt was the amalgamation of UO and WoW, only brought down by the gook greed
>>736597289There's a level to that. Like I said: it doesn't need to be the current year equivalent of crisis. Players like graphics, But being mega ultra realistic is not the most important thing (Although people get super hyped for graphical milestons). But that's not the same as "graphics don't matter". There's a "minimum standard" for graphics that keeps going up. And the closer your are to the minimum the "shittier" your game looks to people, and god help you if you go below the minimum. Look at resolution alone. You didn't need HD textures when WoW released. But if you don't have HD textures now, where everyone has at least a 1080p monitor, you can't do low res textures. Hell people will complain if you lack 4k textures. A 4k image is 27 times as big as a 480p image. "People don't care about graphics" is only true as long as the graphics have the minimum expected quality. Take a look at the Switch Pokemon games. They were roasted to hell for being graphically embarassing. I love Ocarina of Time but if you release a game with the graphical fidelity of OoT, people won't buy it. A game might be an absolute banger, but if it looks like it's PS1 era 3D, most people will pass. (again, outside of the occasional retro hit like Megabonk).I mean think of it: Would you consider buying the next Call of Duty, if the graphics suddenly looked like CoD 1 again? And it wasn't a loving retro homage, but rather just what they expected you to accept as the next entry in the franchise? You'd say: "What the fuck is this? Why is everything low res? Why are the models so low in detail? Why is the landscape so sparce? Look, the dirt floor transitions into grass just by painting it green, and it's all one flat, smooth surface with no bumps". You can say that some people care too much about graphics, and I'd agree. But people in general do care about graphics. More than you think, and more than they admit to themselves.
If vanilla WoW came out today nobody would play it.
>>736598303This is so fucking stupid statement considering Classic broke all the fucking records and Turtle WoW is still raking massive 5000 players on one server alone.
>>736598361Those are carried by nostalgia for a game that came out 23 years ago.
>>736598121>brought down by the gook greedquite a few half decent MMOs have fallen due to that
>>736598239MMORPGs are a little different than the yearly CoD release. MMORPG is a long lived service that cannot upgrade its graphics year by year, it should have the same fidelity throughout its lifespan. Most of the popular MMORPGs are old as fuck, and people who play these games don't seem to care how low quality the graphics are in OSRSBecause the graphical fidelity has to stay the same for a decade, and probably longer, there's no need to chase highest graphical fidelity. Because in 10 years the current graphics will probably be shit, just like they were 10 years agoThe most important part about MMORPG are the systems, as well as the world. You can realize that world easier with lower graphical fidelity
>>736598481Pretty much every old MMO still active had at one point a graphics overhaul. And there's a difference between: "released in 2010, and looks okay for 2010, when people still play it 16 years later" and "released in 2026 and looks like 2010".>OSRSAutism outlier. Can't count that. Also: your argument makes very little sense, because it doesn't just apply to MMOs. You could say: "We want people to still be playing this in 10 years, so we might as well not chase great graphics" about any game, ever, besides maybe the yearly release titles. The Crimson Desert people could have said: "We want people to still enjoy our game 10 years from now" that wouldn't have justified toning down the graphics. Same goes for MMOs. Just because they aim to be around for a long time, doesn't mean they shouldn't go for good graphics, that makes no sense.
>>736598697Anon those games aren't MMORPGs, it's not the same ting. A singleplayer game isn't getting updated frequently with new content for a decade, because it's not profitable. An mmorpg has subscribers that makes such a business model possible, and it needs to keep making new content in some form to retain players. Sure graphics can be updated but there's usually so much content in an mmorpg that updating everything is a total waste of time, which is why there's still textures in retail WoW from Vanilla. I also think retail WoW looks like shit compared to Classic. The artstyle is way too disneyfied.
>>736584001Spider.>>736556270Man.
>>736596664Most of WoW looking crappy isn't a result of the low poly per se, it's the 90s era lighting engine [which retail still hasn't iterated on] letting it down. I've seen shaders that put WoTLK-era WoW at least on par with Genshin in presentation.
>>736599080But we have live service games. Those are totally comperable. And one of the best aspects of the original Division game, was just how fucking cozy snowy NYC was, actually. >Sure graphics can be updated but there's usually so much content in an mmorpg that updating everything is a total waste of timeI feel like this works just as well against your argument. You might as well say: "We expect this game to run for as long as possible and overhauling everything would be a huge effort, so it's best to make everything as high fidelity as possible here". It makes the same amount of sense, I really don't think you have a point here, anon, sorry. Like, the closest you can get is not graphics, but artstyle. And Warcraft / WoW did have a cartoony artstyle that even at the time was not the most graphically impressive. And one can argue that a strong artstyle that goes away from hyper realism will hold up better in the future as graphics evolve, and that is true, again to an extend. Even on a heavily stylized game, people do still require a minimum of fidelity. >which is why there's still textures in retail WoW from VanillaAre there? I thought they overhauled pretty much all of them with HD versions. I'm not sure this is actually true. And even if so, it's kind of a technicality. Because WoW as an expanding game has a bunch of real old zones that are essentially dead, where yeah, maybe some less impressive textures linger. But the players are where the latest expansion is, and that shit's always brand new.
>>736599392Live service games are kind of comparable, but not really. You have a character that you experience the world through in an MMORPG and if after a decade the developers suddenly decide to overhaul the graphics and therefore change the artstyle people would undoubtedly cry about it. >Even on a heavily stylized game, people do still require a minimum of fidelity.What's the minimum though? OSRS is going strong. Classic WoW also is pretty low fidelity but the art style holds up even today. What I'm saying is that MMORPG players don't really care that much about graphics as long as the game is good, at least when compared to a lot of other genres. Because for most of them the MMORPGs they played as a kid had lower fidelity graphics and art style matters a lot more than graphics. Another thing is that high graphical fidelity, especially in an MMORPG, requires a high end PC. Lower graphics allow more people to play your game
>>736594241truth fucking nukesuits were retarded to force the game out undercooked and devs are faggots for not balancing shit until TBC>>736595096my personal favourite is how they justified not adding tier sets for meme specs>well no one plays them so we cba adding a set bonus that would make them not a meme thus attracting players
>>736599769Like I said: OSRS is an autism outlier. You can't count it for anything. If you start counting "what works in OSRS" you're suddenly in a world where you can have drop rates worse than lottery wins. In a world where players are happy grinding for weeks to see their skill go up 1. Where "maxxing" your character will take those that attempt it usually years, and most players will never ever reach it. OSRS is chock full of so much Bullshit that if you put it in any other game, people would fucking RIOT. But for some reason, OSRS players are just build different and eat that shit up. They go: "No, we like it actually, like this". You absolutely can never EVER EVER bring "but in OSRS" to an argument. because as soon as you do, all convention about game mechanics and what is expected of a game go out the fucking window. It's such an outlier, you absolutely can not use it to make an argument for how the general gaming landscape should be handled. You just can not.
short answer: wow was made by people who not only cared about making the game good but actually thought about how to make it goodhttps://youtu.be/Falm0H7VEiQhttps://youtu.be/ioQWkWj5_sshttps://youtu.be/Ud9h8UpcC4E
>>736599989>devs are faggots for not balancing shit until TBCI played a shadow priest and TBC was my happiest time, because they decided: "Hmm, maybe the priests DPS spec should actually be viable for shit? Maybe?". >well no one plays them so we cba adding a set bonus that would make them not a meme thus attracting playersFunny thing is: Even for the specs they supported often set bonuses would just be pants. Why does this have damage stats and a healing set bonus? Why does this have healing stats and a damage increase set bonus? Why is there mp5 on an item for a class that doesn't care about mp5? Why is there spirit on DPS items when they can't break the 5 second rule? They CLEARLY had no Idea what they were doing when it comes to any kind of itemization. Not to mention how often you would get items that were just... not upgrades, despite dropping from noticably more difficult content. Everyone playing Vanilla has a story on how they got a drop and realized: "Wait, this is worse than what I'm wearing".
>>736600104Why can't I? I'm doing it right now. Not every player has to be able to "maxx" their character. Not every player even wants to. There are skills some people like but others hate, and that's totally fine. Not everyone has to be able to do everything. There's clearly something about OSRS that works even if it doesn't conform to the model that most MMORPGs fall into, and I would argue that it's player choice. They're free to level whatever skill they and do whichever quest they want (even if a lot of the players are autistic and go the most efficient route, but then again that's most gamers these days). But I wouldn't evensay OSRS is necessarily an MMORPG. It's pretty much a singleplayer game where you see other players around. Vast majority of the game is solo content. Kind of like cookie clicker. A lot of the players are also Ironman, which is completely antithetical to the MMORPG experience
>>736554425>You only prefer old games because you were young and free back then, with limitless free time.No I still like vanilla wow for playing warrior.Stance dancing and 2h tanking as a warrior was fun, and fighting overzealous AoE DPS for group aggro is a great time.Charging in, swapping to defense, slapping sunders on shit that's starting to run away from you, then changing to berserker and popping retaliation and sweep once you've got them all on you just to make sure the idiot can't peel them off, only to drop back into defensive and throw on a shield once they're mostly gone and your healer is hunched over in the corner desperately trying to get his mana back is satisfying in a way that just doesn't exist in other games.It's the MMO equivalent to a manual transmission and I wish more games used mechanics like that.
>>736600385were stats doing different things in early patches? were there talents that made sense for the tier bonuses when they were released? obviously pre naxx itemization would be fucked on the naxx patch
>>736600448>Why can't I?Because like I said, OSRS is a total outlier. It's a sub-group of hyper autistic crazy people who obsess over this one game. It's like people who play nothing but train simulator and have bought $$6000 worth of DLC. Whatever happens in these sub-cultures can not be transfered onto wider major gaming.
>>736554425nah
>>736599769>OSRS is going strongOSRS has the benefit of being so low spec that anyone that wants to play a video game can play it, and also has social proofing, it's popular and so people that want to do popular things will join. If OSRS launched today and had to compete against itself, it would lose. Your point about WoW is fine, though you've forgotten that popularity and being grandfathered in has a lot to do with a games success, and that games trying to be the grandfathered in game wont find as much success as them.For example, Albion has a similar look and feel to RS, but, it is nowhere near as popular. There have been many WoW-likes, but all of them have died also, or can't be considered anywhere near as successful.
>>736594791NTA but I had fun playing solo and levelling in old WoW. There was really challenging content for solo players there, played huntard so could even do some group quests solo.In retail levelling is just cancer. Not fun, no challenge, cringe new quests added.
>>736594241>reason he was ever difficult, was because it was difficult to equip your raid.Wrong. There was one other reason: fucking disconnects because the server/peoples computers couldnt handle all the effects and bandwidth of a continuous large scale fight. ;P
>>736556270
>>736558034you mean>>Continues the story from end of the Warcraft 3
>>736554425Successful bait.
>>736600659As in different from modern WoW? I mean yeah kinda. A bunch of stats were removed or changed. I don't think resistance is a thing any more, Spirit got removed in Legion I believe. As for talents that made sense for the items in vanilla: no, not really. Like I said: Blizzard at the time just didn't really know what they were doing. They a had a bunch of good ideas, and a bunch of bad Ideas. And in many cases itemization was part of the bad. They had to create hundreds of items, and I wager they just didn't have the manpower to make sure each item made sense for at least on class / specc. And that's how you ended up with a caster sword that has melee crit on it. And "everything's a hunter item" memes. There's more examples like this. For instance they didn't know how to make challinging raid encounters. I mentioned the Ragnaros fight before. That's really a stupidly simple fight. Most raids didn't die to rag, because skill issue fight too hard. They died because the tanks didn't have enough gear to mitigate enough damage, which caused your healers to use up more mana, which in turn meant they ran out earlier, which meant you wipe. They really kicked it up a notch raid mechanic wise with Naxxramas, but once again they made mistakes: Like the four horseman requiering 8 tanks, in a game where the majority of guilds had 4 tanks, 5 at most. That's just a real kick in the nuts. >>736600850Not saying "There was no fun outside of raids", just that the big raids were always a focus for the devs, and something they cared about. The whole game essentially funnelled you towards the raid. Your fun leveling? Getting you up to the raid. Dungeons? Getting you read for the raid. Professions? Getting prepared for the raid. >>736600914Lmao, true. Later during WotLK, we had guilds pay for full server transfer because during raid time the realm cluster got overwhelmed and they would wipe due to lags when a bunch of top tier guilds all started pulling at the same time.
Bump
>>736601171>raidsI raided maybe like one dozen times, total and it was close to the end of BC
>>736554205WoW was good in 2004, but you want a game that you can't see through so easily ... a world that's alive.Who thought questing and mob grinding for hundreds of hours was and would be good? It's extremely repetitive, and it's not as if anyone reads the quest text enough to have moment to moment storyworth, not that it's very immersive or good anyway.Now Classic has phasing (where you aren't going to see people ever again because they're not on your server), so you can't even play the original design.Despite their best efforts, retail is hard to play for very long without getting bored. Again, people want a living world.
>>736602372>phasing>realm cross playname more gayer things
bump
How grim is it that old mmorpg devs are retiring and all the current devs only have experience in making WoW clones, and the new devs have played only WoW clones?
>>736595593pretty sure turtlewow is spyware, but ok
The era of MMOs ended long ago, never to return and never to be again. Cherish the memories before you lose the last of them. Do not succumb to the sweet words of false prophets or surrender to false hope. MMOs will never be ours again.
>>736554205so it shows that vanilla wow was a flawed design
>>736602998Maybe it wont be so bad, maybe they will be inspired to challenge themselves and make something different. Maybe take on a new technology and use that as the basis of the gameplay.
>>736603810Yes, but somehow nobody has come up with anything better in 22 years. Crazy.
WoW came out and dumbed down the entire genre and automated a bunch of necessary social features to keep interaction alive, and other companies saw "holy shit we can just make the game play itself and treat it like a single player game they pay us constantly to play" and then did and because WoW managed to succeed it tricked the entire genre into thinking that it was a better option.Thanks wow, you fucked everything up forever.
>>736602998old mmorpg devs are reason why we are in this messwe need some talented fresh blood doing upheaval, at last some outsider rearranging things
>>736554109I got burnt out on wow a few years ago after they kept dumbing everything down. I picked up guild wars 2 though and I'm enjoying it quite a bit.
>>736604093It really didnt, but keep repeating what someone else said.
>>736605826don't worry, I will.
>>736604008lollmao even
Once I's reach page 10, I's be free
>>736605852based idiot internet drone
>>736607210Just doing my part o7
