How would you do this properly?
>>736791693Faggots will cry that every change is retail, even though most people are tired of classic for the 50th time.
What's taking Blizzard so long to go bankrupt?
>>736791782SoD scarlet enclave felt like you were actually playing through a new retail season with full catch up gear sets and "press x raid defensive cooldown to not die" raid mechanics.It's like they only know how to make new retail instead of building the next tier up of an RPG dungeon.
>>736791693I wouldn't do anything. I would just listen, which is what no one else did.
Super hyped for tranny+ so fat fuck Aggrend will make RETrannys S+++++++++ again.
>>736791693It was already done properly
>>736791845chinks and gooks
>>736791693you can't unless you fundamentally change the way WoW progresses, which was purely vertical and designed to reset every 2 years with an expansion. You can't just keep making 'more' content for vanilla that's inevitably going to be cleared in a week. That's just retaillevelling would need to be 10x slower, the game would need to massively flesh out and add more professionsprofessions would need to be integral to the gameplay and all feed into each othergear should never be invalidated but used to create better gear or scrapped for professionsyes the game would need to just turn into WoW flavored runescape, it's literally the only way to design an MMO with longevity. Instances would need to become milestones along a journey and not the sole destination
>>736791693There are like 7000 fan projects and 70,000 extremely autistically detailed breakdowns across 20 years of people begging for more classic WoW content. If they cared at all they could just look at the complaints about story direction, raid direction etc and just do what people want. They wouldn't please everyone but Warcraft had more than enough to expand into lorewise and the gameplay loop should explain itself for classic.The real issue is they really don't want to make a better game to compare to their current game
>>736791782The more you change vanilla the less it feels like vanilla, the goal should be to keep the feel of vanilla and just have more of it. Add new content, don't change content or add features from future expansions.
>>736791693Just go through each zone and add quests that finish the minor story lines or quests that go nowhere
>>736791693>the only addition will be the darkspear pride event
>>736791693you can't, not while the retards who keep ruining retail at pozzard are still aroundstop making daily threads about this
I just would not do it. The online gaming community is just not the same as 2004-2008. They will never be able to recreate the feel even if by some miracle the development team makes a good game (they won't). Even if they pull off a good game, it'll be plagued with bots, mass inflation, gold buying, carry selling, parse chasing and just be unfun as a result. People need to stop living in nostalgia and just let it go already.
>>736791693Everyone is going to have different opinions and someone will be upset no matter what you do.Like I'm on the go nuts side with adding classes, races, and zones with changes to existing stuff as long as the overall design stays like vanilla, but some people won't like that.
>>736793292There is a second option, keep doing what they're doing with classic. Seasonal servers that reset after 1-2 years and an eternal Era server which you can transfer your characters to on wipe.They can keep working on the next season in the meantime to have a fresh experience with new content after each reset. This means they wouldn't have to change anything about the progression and the game can stay the way we like it.
Blizzard can't do it, nobody there fundamentally understand classic anymore. A few pservers have tried it, but it's always "1 good idea, 2 bad ones".
>>736791878>SE was the most retail-like raid>The best one by farNooooticing
>>736791693Ban addons, ban raid logging, remove player trading and automate the auctionhouse to get rid of goldfarmers. I call it Classic Pure.
SoD was Blizzard's attempt at Classic+. You gotta accept it.
>>736794079/thread
I can't bear the thought of leveling through vanilla again
>>736791693You retards don't understand you can never make this because the design philosophy has been long gone and no one is able to recapture it.
>>736794541It's easily recapturable but the modern playerbase won't like it
>>736794541The design philosophy is right there in the game, all they have to do is look.
>>736791693>How would you do this properly?it's impossible. all the talented people who made vanilla are gone.
>>736791693I wouldn'tThe main appeal of Classic WoW is that it is frozen in time and static, any subsequent addition is counterproductive at a conceptual level
>>736794904This isn't for the players that are content with playing a 20+ year old game frozen in time, it's for the players that hate the direction retail went and want a new version that goes down a different path.
>>736795118that's a completely retarded line of thought
>>736795393Why?
It cant be fixed because World of Warcraft is a MMORPG and the RPG aspect in MMORPG no longer exists, the players have killed it. Players no longer wanna communicate instead the players wanna zoom zoom and speed run everything.
>>736793617>Even if they pull off a good game, it'll be plagued with bots, mass inflation, gold buying, carry selling, parse chasing and just be unfun as a result.This.A huge problem as well is that plenty of these issues can easily be solved. Detecting and banning bots is extremely easy. Detecting and investigating gold selling/buying is easy.Hell, when I first started playing, a GM whispered me asking why I sent 100 gold to someone via mail who wasn't on my friends list and I explained it was a friend from school I was talking to on Skype and I just hadn't thought to add himCarry selling can just be fucking banned (and it should be)Parse chasing is 100% a community problem though and I don't know how to fix it
this will be the playerbase for classic+ that blizzard is most interested in pandering to
I would personally make Classic-Nerf all the OP classes like mage and DPS warriorsRemove respeccing entirely fuck youDelete all flightmastersLose EXP on death
>>736795437>it's for the players that hate the direction retail wentfirst of all, that's an insane overgeneralization, it's impossible to cater to 20 different splintered groups of players which subsequently have 20 other variations of ideals>and want a new version that goes down a different path.second of all, that makes no sense whatsoever, why would I be interested in something Blizzard makes out of Classic if I don't like the direction Blizzard themselves took the game
>>736791693I can't imagine a fandom coping so hard that they would want Classic WoW re-released AGAIN. Like Jesus Christ just move on already.
the best classic+ experience you can have in 2026 onwards is to learn how to setup your own server, populate it with AI and occasionally invite your best mates for a chill leveling session.
you retards are obsessed with your shallow casual cooperative arpg where all you do is kill stuff to make numbers go up and collect some cosmetics. Retail wow isn't fundamentally different you're just so brainwashed by ideology you hate the exact same game mechanics it always was just because it has a woke coat of paint.
Classic+ needs to have:updated talents - this is just a no brainer, warrior has the most competent talent tree, all classes should have that.additional dungeons - zones without dungeons are the obvious choice for this. also adding in "tough" one boss instances in these zones could be fun so players could try for a powerful item they could enjoy for that level bracket, and also get them used to raiding. additional professions - and make additions or changes that doesn't just just make engi the auto choice for most people.
>>736791693>Factions can capture towns, cities and regions through world PvP>Drop some of your gear when you die>Remove sharding>Limited Legendary gear countOnly way to fix WoW is by getting rid of the themepark skinnerbox or it will be forever beholden to the loot treadmill. PvE fags have had their way for 20 years and its a zero sum game.
>>736796087You're just describing WotLK
>>736795781Why else do you think they're making classic+ if not to cater to a group of players that want it? Your stance makes no sense.
Epoch would have been exactly what I wanted, but alas
>>736796697It was clear that the project was doomed when they were having meltdowns over dumb shit like this
>>736791693I have WoW fatigue. Just make a Warcraft 4
>>736796906That was dumb but hardly a big deal. They just didn't want to deal with the retarded FRESH private server fags that swarmed the server and were being obnoxious in discord. Of course that was partially their fault for advertising it and putting out fancy trailers and stuff
>>736794079At least these servers are community run and they are free to play. Ever since I started playing again WoW on one of these privy servers I'm enjoying the game's feature better and without rushing, plus fellow players are chill and cool to play with.
>>736793357>just have more of itthat is a change, and a big one. you autists screech over any change but when people try to add new zones or any form of new content (classes, specs, etc.) you act like it's the end of the world. can't have it both ways
>>736791693just copy turtle WoW, never listen to faggot streamers, and focus on the lvling journey.
>>736796437>wpvp hardcore loot drop fagopinion discarded
>>736795589sadly carry scum is deeply embedded into the gameeven the old ex president was openly doing it and bragging about it on twitterIt's obvious their entire token revenue revolves around carry and boost faggotry, they could ban it but they would lose out on a ton of cash by doing so.Remove tokens and you end up removing a major tumor from the game but it hurts profits so it's here to stay forever sadly
>>736796437>Factions can capture towns, cities and regions through world PvPYou'd need to scrap racials to stop pvp enthusiasts going solely whatever faction is meta
>>736791845they did. thats why microsoft bought them
>>736798228For sureracials were always really badly balanced>>736797884You seem upset
>>736791693jesus christ, how the fuck haven't people let go yet? nothing WoW does will make you happy anymore
>>736791693Add monksThat's all I would do
>>736791693Turtle wow already did it, Fuck blizzsloppers.
>>736796456Or TBC, or literally almost any wow expansion since vanilla, what do you people even want from classic plus then.
>>736791693i wouldn't because this shit is like 20 years old and tired.
Classic plus shit always makes me amused. It's like Blizzard admitting that they know retail is shit and yet refusing to fix the mainline game.
Add Dwarf Shamans and Tauren Paladins so you have both factions have equal class access but don't add faggot blood elves
>>736796087>tough one boss instances in these zones could be fun so players could try for a powerful item they could enjoy for that level bracket, and also get them used to raiding.This would be an interesting idea if these types of boss instances existed for 20-30-40-50 levels.
>>736799026Tauren paladins…ffs just make undead paladins, it is clearly the better choice and ud priests already exist. Tauren Paladins have always been the goofiest idea of all time until dracthyr took the crown.
>>736799214Tauren paladins actually had a fairly decent we wuz sun kangs concept behind them in the original Uldum storyline that got thrown out in favor of the meme bullshit we got on retail.
>>736799214>>736799771now we have tauren rogues, which was a joke back in the day, nobody cares about the game being remotely cohesive anymore
>>736796437>Only way to fix WoW is by getting rid of the themepark skinnerbox or it will be forever beholden to the loot treadmillGear under your proposed solutions isn't destroyed, it is redistributed. It promotes guilds of vultures. The treadmill doesn't disappear when you still need those items. Your proposition does not solve any of the problems you have mentioned.You might however get a bunch of russians, because that's the audience for this.
>>736796697>Epoch would have been exactly what I wanted, but alasThat Deadmines rework was a fucking disaster and killed any hope I had for them going forward.
>>736797721Adding new content on top of the old game isn't change, altering existing content either directly or indirectly with the new content is change. It's a fine balancing act.
>>736791693I would do very minor changes to talent trees in a way that minimally effects PvP. Classes dont need much change to be viable for Raids in vanilla.First you have some sort of system where people can use token to change tier gear to specialize for 1 spec, IE healing set only gives healing, with minimal / no spell power, damage set gives 0 healing.Next i would do minor tweaks to classes. For example, all prot pallies need is their redoubt to work also when the paladin crits (that way defence is no longer bad on paladins) and better mana regen in some way, like reduce mana cost of holy shield. There now prot pallies are viable in raids.For ret I would change it so vengeance does some sort of party wide buff, and repentance also increases party attack and casting speed by 20% for 15 seconds if the target is immune.For druid I would change leader of the pack so that it gives 2% raid wide crit buff, and stacks up to 3 times, and moonkin form also reduces cost of balance spells and wrath by 70%. This with spec specific tier gear should be enough to make them much more viable in PvE, without affecting PvP much. (moonkin is and always will be garbage in pvp as long as it requires mana and thats fine)
>>736801383You can never go back
>>736801256What was wrong with it? I only did WC and thought it was pretty good
>>736801921I don't want to go back, I want to go forward in a different direction.
>>736802050It was WAY too long and they made it a pain in the ass, overtuned mess because of their stupid "classic needs to be more difficult" mentality. Nobody plays Classic WoW to express skill, it's a chill beer sipping boomer game and anyone who tries to make it hard will fail.
>>736802732this is correctthey were doing gangbusters with classic wow all the way up to wotlk because the Ulduar patch hit and mindbroke all the casuals. its not even that hard it just has for than two mechanics per boss and a higher stat check, but even that was too much
>>736802732That's ridiculous, half the appeal of vanilla is that leveling content isn't a joke. The only reason your boomerass can mindlessly play through these dungeons is because you've completed them 500 times before. The moment your stonified brain encounters something new it shits itself.
>>736803542>half the appeal of vanilla is that leveling content isn't a joke. The only reason your boomerass can mindlessly play through these dungeons is because you've completed them 500 times before.This is extreme delusion. Leveling isn't hard it just takes a long time, are you a fucking moron? Dungeon mobs auto attack you, cast one spell on loop. Bosses have one mechanic, if that. You're a disingenuous faggot or really bad at the game and trying to cope with that, kill yourself.
i'd nerf paladin's damage and make them press even less buttons so they know their entire class is nothing but a heal-bot slave
>>736803542>half the appeal of vanilla is that leveling content isn't a jokeBeing confined to running speed for 40+ levels and spending two years to do a basic task doesn't make your slop impressive, freak. Makes you mentally ill and probably a neet.
>>736803867>muh instant gratificationGo away gamerdad, they made retail specifically for you, we don't need another one.
>>736803643Don't pretend you didn't wipe hundreds of times in dungeons when you first started playing, everyone did. Even on hardcore WoW where everyone are trying to be as careful as possible they wipe all the fucking time. Low level mobs in vanilla are actually scary compared to retail where they barely even do damage to you.
>>736803867>Being confined to running speed for 40+ levels and spending two years to do a basic task doesn't make your slop impressiveJust pick a class that has movement speed altering effects instead of warlocks/warriors/rogues all the time. Agreed on your second point that vanilla quests that are cross continental fetch quests are absolute ass and I'm glad that most quests in future expansions can be resolved in the zone that you retrieved the quest from.
>>736791693
Does anyone have the poll results that show that the average player wants>blood elves>arena>faction parityetc
"You think you do but you actually don't" was always right. No on can agree on what they want classic to be and at a certain point its time to move on.
>>736805479There is nothing to move on to so we might as well stay
>>736805394https://wowclassic.plus/survey/results
>>736791693I think I'd rather just play vanilla for a week or two
>>736791845Unironically government funding. You have to remember they were bought by Activision who literally worked with and was payed by the US military/government to create/support CoD to promote military recruitment. Then when marching orders were sent out to promote the gays/troons Warcraft and Blizzard were deemed the perfect way to push that garbage. So no matter how much it killed WoW they still got more than enough money given to them to keep things going.
>>736791693Just play retail nigga lmao
>>736805670This survey was a terrible idea, there's no way of knowing if the voters are actual classic enjoyers, retail players or just trolls. The classic audience is a niche, you don't make a game for a niche audience by asking the majority.
>>736805905You can kind of filter results but there should've definitely been a which version do you main question that you can apply as a filter. Though seeing the differences between NA/EU and H/A is actually interesting and i'm sure Blizz had a hand in setting this up.
>>736791693Properly? I would play turtle wow but i don't play wow anymore
>>736805905>>736806180FYI for ESL retards
>>736806230That's experience not what they main retard
>>736806230Who says you have to answer truthfully? If my goal was to turn classic+ into another version of retail then I would pretend to be the most hardcore classic player imaginable.
>>736806321
>>736806357Nobody, not even retail players like GDKPs, try again.
>>736791693It's impossible to do right, ask 100 different people and you will get 100 different answers on what it should or shouldn't be.
>>736791693>open hyjal>make quelthalas part of the eastern kingdoms and not a separate instance>make belfs alliance>add ogres and goblins to horde>keep pallys and shamans faction exclusive
>>736806474Most players you ask want to preserve the spirit of vanilla, if they don't they're a filthy retail player and you should ignore them.
>>736805670Most of these are reasonable. I personally wouldn't prefer arenas added but I don't care much for PvP anyway so I could deal with it. Mythic+ bullshit however is completely unacceptable and I can't believe anything other than retoilets poisoning the survey could have led to that, which is strange because the other ones are generally reasonable. I guess speedrun faggots really are a huge part of classic players
>>736806901If you asked 100 classicfags what "preserving the spirit of vanilla" is you'd get 50 different answers. Even something miniscule like dual spec you'd get 15% saying they don't want it in.
>>736807082There is always going to be compromises, Blizzard's job right now is to figure out how far they can go while still preserving the spirit of vanilla for the most amount of players. The details don't matter as much as the big picture.
>>736806710noooo belfs would never side with the alliance after 1 single human was mean to them. they have to side with the faction that has at least 3 races that tried to genocide them
>>736807071Takes a lot longer to look at results but you can filter by region, playstyle and the bis chasers. If you see something that looks out of place, sort by Hardcore raider/"I always pick the bis race for any content" and you'll understand.It seems to be the Europoors that are most consistent with the general classic idea for some reason.
>>736806357GDKPs are just synomymous with RMT, even the dumbest retail nigger understands this nowadays
>>736807325Hardcore raiders are a plague on the game, they're the reason all of this endgame bullshit came into being in the first place. Flying mounts were invented so they could enter their raids quicker, the dungeon finder after that so they could level up quicker. Then we got exp buffs max level boosts in the cash shop, all so the hardcore raiders could get to work faster. Classic+ should be the opposite of that, a game focused on the journey, leveling, quests and world pvp. Somehow it feels like an unattainable idea in this awful environment they've created, but it shouldn't be.
>>736791878>game requires you to actually react to mechanics>this is bad because....retail does it too!classicboomers have brainrot holy fuck
>>736805670Jesus christ who designed this website? The menu and the vertical scroll are attached to each other which makes navigating the various options a pain in the ass.
>>736791693Fix the retarded itemization like adding spell power to leveling gearUse TBC archtypes, as in give all specs unique buff/debuffs so underperformers still contributeMake raids 25man, 40 was a shitshowOverhaul old raids getting rid of loot pinata bosses and reduce the amount of trash mobs in raidsAdd heroic modes for raids, they give more loot, have a chance to drop cosmetics and bragging rights via titlesLower ilevel progression
>>736802732>their stupid "classic needs to be more difficult" mentalityepoch buffed almost every class, of course mobs needed to be tougherI leveled to 60 as a warlock and I remember a bump in difficulty at level40 but once you gear up a bit and get your capstone talents it evens out.
>>736808617this but then go to 10m, make specs even better, heroic raid items are higher item level and speed up leveling
>>736791693Base it on WoW AlphaMake it "hard" in an rpg way, not execution wayDelete all raids and never ever introduce them or any time gated content to the game ever again, a single attempt should take so long that time gates to throttle the sweats are meaninglessTell all crybabies to fuck off
>>736808832I could go as low as 20, 10man is way too low and even in wotlk you ended up missing a lot of raidwide buffs
>>736808617>Fix the retarded itemization like adding spell power to leveling gearSpell power shouldn't exist to begin with, delete all pure +dmg stats and focus on utility and sustain instead
>>736809014I don't understand why they made Strength and Agility directly give attack power, yet neglected to have Intellect give spell power. Seems like such an obvious problem.
>>736808961Make dying hurt, 10x the repair costs, xp loss, I don't care, just make dying undesirable enough that no one will ever consider death skipping to be a viable choice in any situation ever, this is why HC wow is so enjoyable and it balances the game to be more than>lol more dmg bettererby giving utility and survivability some value
>>736809148Probably just because that's how it worked in WC3 too
All classic+ concepts are doomed because they listen to reddit on stupid shitexample: >vanilla warriors are fully balanced around being easy to kite, they're set up as the best target to heal since it can go on forever and output damage at 100% efficiency forever>redditors see this, their 90 IQ midwit brain kicks in and goes "hmm I believe warriors need another gap closer, food for thought." >classic+ devs add another gap closer>warrior now shits on everything so hard it needs to be reigned in by making it relatively weaker in melee by giving the other melee classes more melee attacks, like crusader strike on paladin (yet another reddit favorite) >now the difference between paladin and warrior is mostly visual and the original distinct yet equal game balance is shatteredIn order to avoid this type of shit what I would like to see most from classic+ would be: >new content that adherers to similar itemization principles as the existing content, but lets you have more variety, doesn't matter if it's raids, dungeons or leveling zones (the latter may fuck with wpvp so it needs to be done carefully) >new races because it's fun and as long as they don't utterly powercreep the racials it's fine to add more>completely off the charts shit like that standalone tower roguelike mode legion had (I think?) that people keep saying is fun and I didn't play so it's just an example, standalone being the keyword
>>736791693Classic era has chronoboons and dual spec. You think you need more, but you don't. Classic+ could simply be TBC era.
>>736808961>>736809217Rework healing and damage profiles because holy shit healing in WoW is so fucking retarded, no one likes spamming the dedicated healing spell and chugging mana potions. Every and all heals in the game should have a massive, MASSIVE mana cost and/or a cooldown, but the damage profile of the game should be a bit more mellow to compensatePressing a healing ability should feel mire of an active choice than drinking a potion in HC wow does
>>736791693Literally all I want is a more balanced vanilla with some QoL changes, that continues progressing forever like OSRS so you know in the back of your head that the servers won't progress into a new shit expansion or become irrelevant when Blizzard ends up releasing yet another version of classic classic classic classic vanilla that everyone jumps over to. However, I have zero hope that Blizzard can actually make classic+ good enough to be interesting, so I will probably not even give it a try if they ever release it
>>736809468I don't hate the idea but how would group content with a tank work if healing is neutered? Would bosses just do way less damage?
>>736809554>so I will probably not even give it a try if they ever release itThe best time to play is at the start as that’s when all the best things happen and there’s more non sweats just having a good time like sod p1.
>>736809635I assume there would be a larger emphasis on players avoiding taking damage instead of relying on healers to keep them alive. Also, Loatheb kind of plays with the concept he's talking about with the long-cooldown heals.
>>736809635>Would bosses just do way less damage?Less spiky damage so that tanks don't ping-pong between 30-90% hp every other global and maybe less damage in generalIt's a balancing act but other games have figured it out so it's possible, the WoW solution is easy and lazy on the developers which is why it's so
>>736809273warriors don't really need another gap closer, but spell reflect in TBC was the perfect addition
>>736809635I think you’d have to give healers their own quirk. We’d set a baseline of small heal small CD and long heal large CD. So Paladin would have no AoE heal however they get reduced mana cost, slightly reduced CD and could have say 3 charges on the smaller one. Druids get HoT, Priests get everything and shammies get a stronger AoE heal
>>736809468Also remove the fucking swing timer penalty after casting a heal it's so fucking stupid! I get that it was implemented to stop healers from self healing and bonking inbetween in PvP but if that's ever a viable option, it's a mana efficiency or HPS issue, fixing it with setting the swing time to 0 after casting a heal is FUCKING RETARDED and cucks potential playstyles out of the game
I will still play classic+ attempt #2 but anyone who played SoM should be able to tell they don't have a fucking clue what "classic" actually feels like. >Most classes got either overhauled or completely new primary rotational abilities that cost 1/10 the mana for 3x the output. >Virtually not a single new situational or utility skill, basically just straight damage or healing throughput. >No new interesting active items or trinkets, again just bonus crit or AP>Endgame progression is still 100% mandatory instanced raidingAt least they tried to make some wpvp events that would have been fun without the classes being fucked.
>>736811648The whole point of SoD was to throw shit at the wall and gather data, even on things that they knew wouldn't work just to have concrete objective proof of why it would not work even if it seems obvious to anyone why it wouldn't workIt's something Aggrend tweeted out
Druids need to be able to root and feral swiftness indoors, this is the change I'm most exited for.
>>736812215now that's cope if I ever seen one lmao. I know it's hard to believe but they're just THAT incompetent anon
>>736809273>the original distinct yet equal game balance is shatteredtheres no world in which paladins and warriors are distinct but equal in vanilla you retarded boomer
>>736793617People always say this, but I would still prefer an official experience, hosted on official servers, with official developers and customer service, rather than private server slop hosted by a hobbyist. Bots and massive inflation will always exist in any MMORPG, it's an unpreventable outcome unfortunately
>>736811648>Most classes got either overhauled or completely new primary rotational abilities that cost 1/10 the mana for 3x the output. good vanilla class design is abysmal dogshit and needed to be overhauled entirely>Virtually not a single new situational or utility skill, basically just straight damage or healing throughput. blatantly false, I didnt even play SoD but a cursory look shows they added deep freeze>No new interesting active items or trinkets, again just bonus crit or APinteresting items arent very vanilla wow :^)>Endgame progression is still 100% mandatory instanced raidingyeah other content is dogshit, unless you wanted m+?
>>736795637>The one guy playing solitaire
>>736813890only if you're a braindamaged retard and think ret paladin should be as valuable as a warrior in all contexts paladins can spec out of ret, warriors can't spec into healing
>>736791693its not hard. heres all you do:>paladinrestore holy strike from the beta version of WoW, ret onlyimplement a no-mana taunt for protection, implement mana regain when being healed for protection from wotlk>rogueno changes needed>warriorno changes needed>mageimplement diminishing returns on the slowing effect from blizzard in order to kill 'boosting' and all the cancer that comes with it>shamanno changes needed>druidadd the following to feral instinct talent:your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point>warlockno changes needed>hunterno changes needed >general changesdebuff limit on npcs raised from 8 to 100job fucking done.
>>736814874this 'hybrid tax' mentality is retarded and false due to the simple fact that no hybrid can do that shit at the same time. you have to go back to a trainer, spend the gold, and have a whole other set of gear to spec into or out of anything.if paladin could both heal and DPS at the same time efficiently in a raid, then you'd have a valid point. but they cant, and neither can druid or shaman, so go fuck yourself. paladin SHOULD be entirely as valuable as warrior in a DPS or tanking context
>>736813890>>736815060>if my ret paladin can't do as much dps in a raid as a fury warrior then that means it's imbalancedA warrior can't heal as good as a paladin can, maybe warriors should get a healing spec?
>>736791693>How would you do this properly?You would have to make WoW completely moddable. And this would be a complete technical rework of the game. At the moment you need a unique client and unique server code to do anything different. You could probably get away with the same database schema though.
>>736815060>you have to go back to a trainer, spend the gold, and have a whole other set of gear to spec into or out of anything.and the warrior has to respec to a healing class and level that new character up to the required level. your point being?
>>736815138again.they cant do it at the same fucking timecast one holy light as ret and you do piss poor healing and use up half your mana, which absolutely destroys your ability to dps for the full fightpayattention
>>736815564my point being that the capability of a spec that fulfills a different role is not a justification to completely cripple another spec which is meant to do something else, just because another class shares a role with it and want to be daddys special boys to blizzardevery single warrior player is a complete fucking cunt-tard to deal with because of this entitlement you have engraved in your brains, given false justification through the 'hybrid-tax' non-argument. i reiterate, go fuck yourself.t. salty ex-paladin main
>>736815607yeah but they can respec to healer, a warrior can't respec to healer. also mages are bad at tanking, it's kinda unfair how warriors can tank but mages can't
>>736814887Druids need a lot more work
>>736815690>completely cripple another specRet is viable in pvp and soloing. The only thing it can't do is raid, but every single class in the game has specs that can't raid.
>>736815707doesn't matterall that matters is what the spec you're in is supposed to be doing in the raid you're in. if you're playing fury warrior, you're doing dps. if you're playing ret paladin, you're doing dps. if you're playing feral druid, you're doing dps. et cetera. all of these are melee dpsand all of them should be equivalent enough in potential so that you don't run into cancer like stacking 8 fury warriors because blizzard were retards at balancing and tigole & furor were retarded cunts and made no other spec hold a candle to them
>>736791782fpbp
>>736815817>playing arms warrior>can't get into raids because arms sucks at raidswtf? why is warrior so weak? arms NEEDS buffs so warrior can compete.
>>736791693Ogres on the horde
>>736791693Put forth as little effort as possible, also put in as many microtransations as possible, knowing full well retarded standardless wowpigs are gonna eat that shit up and ask for seconds.
>>736815060>paladin SHOULD be entirely as valuable as warrior in a DPS or tanking contextWhy? A warrior isn't as valuable as a paladin in a healing context, why should the opposite be true? Retarded logic. It's not about a tax, why should a paladin just be a superior class to a warrior though?
>>736814874they are both character options and should be equally valuable, fuck off you retarded spic
>>736815779>soloingliterally does not matter. this is the same thing as saying that hunters are good at soloing so they shouldn't 'need' to be brought to raids. pvp, yes, ret is okay in pvp, which is why the only thing that they need is holy strike from the beta, which is a slow-burning stacking tool that shines in long raid fights, and has negligible impact in pvp fights which are decided within a relatively short window of timeif you didnt know, holy strike from beta applied a stacking 'holy damage taken' debuff on the enemy, which allowed ret to scale harder the longer a fight went on>every single class in the game has specs that cant raidfalse. only hybrids suffered this because of those fucking cunts tigole & furor being pissy that a paladin whomped their shit in everquestwarrior has ZERO specs that cannot raid. yes that includes arms, you can raid as arms.mage has ZERO specs that cannot raid.priest has ZERO specs that cannot raid. yes that includes shadow, people brought it as a mana batterywarlock has ZERO specs that cannot raid, though i'll admit that corruption gets fucked by debuff limits which is why i would raise debuff limitsyou are flat out wrong>>736815749please elaborate, i didnt main a druid so im ignorant as to what balance might need
>>736815779>ret is viable at soloinglollmaojust making up nonsense now
>>736815979again. BECAUSE THEY CANT DO IT AT THE SAME TIMEthis is not about a healing context you goal-posts moving faggot. its about a dps context. of course if you put fury warrior up against holy paladin, holy paladin is going to heal more. no fucking shit sherlock. but this is about fury warrior vs ret paladin, which are DPS classes and thus direct comparisons can be drawn
>>736816021>yes that includes shadow, people brought it as a mana batteryShadow priests do not have the mana battery ability in vanilla. Holy shit these are the people demanding huge sweeping balance changes, they don't even fucking play the game.
>>736816135nobody plays vanilla because its dogshit
>>736814497You are obviously a mazed retail nigger so I wasn't going to respond but >interesting items arent very vanilla wow :^)>peasant caller, reflectors, skull of impending doom, net, hand of justice, lifegiving gem, rocket helm, rocket boots, fucking nifty stopwatch>less interesting than +300 ap 2 min cd
>>736816104>BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DO IT AT THE SAME TIMEAnd a warrior can NEVER healwhy is it fine for the paladin to be 100% as good as a warrior at tanking and dpsing but then also have the ability to heal? How is thta not obviously unfair?
>>736816184Why do you think that someone who doesn't play the game should be making balance decisions?
>>736816252because we have evidence of a successful version (retail) where theyve been put into usemeanwhile vanilla is dogshit
>>736816226He's a retoilet that wants vanilla to be retail lite, he hasn't actually played vanilla. He exposed himself here >>736816021 when he said that spriest were mana batteries in vanilla.
>>736816226They don't have to be 100% as good at tanking or DPSing, but right now they're not even 50% as good as a fury warrior. The spec is considered so bad you raids don't even want you to come unless you heal.
>>736816226because. they. cant. do. it. at. the. same. time.how many times do i have to repeat myselfthe fact that warrior cannot heal does not matter whatsoever because the ret paladin in the raid isnt healing either.ret should be just as good as furyprot (paladin) should be just as good as prot (warrior)feral (dps) should be just as good as furyferal (tank) should be just as good as prot (warrior)enhancement should be just as good as furyelemental should be just as good as mageend of story, fuck the hybrid tax, fuck you, and fuck tigole and furor
>>736816318If you like retail then why are you demanding that vanilla be more like retail? Can't you just keep playing retail?
>>736816215>generic tank trinkets and speed boosts are interesting to shittersmakes sense
>>736816326>They don't have to be 100% as good at tanking or DPSing, So you're suggesting they should be taxed for being hybrid?
>>736816362Read you stupid nigger>why is it fine for the paladin to be 100% as good as a warrior at tanking and dpsing but then also have the ability to heal? How is thta not obviously unfair?stop ignoring this and answer you fucking monkey
>>736816396Taxed at 5-10% yes, not 50%
>>736816319vampiric embrace causes raid wide healing which saves your actual healers mana. plus they increase the shadow damage the target takes meaning every spriest and warlock in the raid does loads more damage
>>736816485nobody actually uses an spriest in raid sin vanilla. you do not play vanilla, you are a retail player that wants vanilla to be retail lite.
>>736816447ive already answered it like 8 god damn times.its fine for the paladin to be 100% as good as a warrior at tanking and dpsing when the paladin is prot or ret respectively, because they aren't healing at the same time while they are those specs. they are fulfilling the same role as the warrior, that of tank or dps, THEY ARE NOT HEALING, THEY ARE NOT HEALERS, THUS THEY ARE NOT FULFILLING TWO ROLES, THUS THEY SHOULD BE AS GOOD AT THAT ONE (1) ROLE THEY'RE DOING AS A WARRIOR IS.
>>736816372if the discussion is how to make the game better then it follows you copy the better version
>>736816553why isn't arms warrior good at dps? why shouldn't arms get a buff?>>736816560if you think that retail is better then why not just stick to retail instead of demanding that vanilla cater to your tastes?
>>736796456I mean if you took WotLK without flying, faceroll dungeons, infinite ez-mode catchup mechanics, mana becoming irrelevant, pve cc becoming irrelevant, dungeon finder, or any of the other shit that fucked up Wrath he didn't mention, you'd actually have a pretty good experience, so it makes sense.
>>736816553You aren't answering the question at all you dumbfuck. Why is it fine for a paladin to be the same as a warrior but with the option to heal which warrior doesn't have? How is the warrior not objectively worse now? Why would anyone fucking roll warrior knowing>hmmm I could be a paladin and heal, tank or dps raids and be 100% as effective as any other class doing it >or I could roll warrior, and do the same things except I can't heal lmao Why would anyone play warrior now?
>>736816553imagine it as if each class had a budget of 100 for each role they can potentially fill. a warrior can only ever fill two roles: DPS or TANK so they're at a 50/50 budget split. since paladin has the potential to fulfill all three roles, he has a 33/33/33 split. to me that's fair
>>736791693>How would you do this properly?They already did it. Keep up SoD's momentum with new dungeons, new raids, new specs, and maybe new races. The only change they need to make:stick with the original season's raid size of 10 in a raid or add flex.have a dungeon token system to keep dungeons alive, opening up 2 season old tier via tokens eventually.Add QoL like buffs going on everyone, longer duration, etc. (they were kinda doing this anyways)
>>736791845People honestly don't realize how much money Blizzard makes from paypigs. All the asinine monetization bullshit they've shoved into the game over the years makes a FUCKTON of money. This xpac with all the housing microtransactions they created has probably made them more money than every other expansion put together, I'm dead serious. To put it simply, they are likely more solvent than ever before.
>>736816746because they enjoy warrior thematically or mechanically you fucking subhumanevery single version from wrath onward has already shown balanced specs see way more player variety than shitnilla slop
>>736816805>opening up 2 season old tier via tokens eventuallyIf you could get molten core gear by doing dungeons, why would you ever do molten core?
>>736816902>t-they can roleplay I guessokay lmaoexcellent balance angle my friend>they can still pick the worse option if they want the uh, class thematic of being a worse paladinLMAO
>>736816902If retail is so much better then why does classic exist?
>>736816392>zero effort zero knowledge responseI don't know what I expected
>>736816797>a warrior can only ever fill two roles: DPS or TANK so they're at a 50/50 budget splitbest dps in the game btw, kill yourself brownskin>since paladin has the potential to fulfill all three roles, he has a 33/33/33 split.which is completely useless
>>736816998retail is too hard for the shitskins who populate classic
>>736817069if it were useless paladin wouldn't be so popular. you just think you're the protagonist and deserve to be pandered to lmao
>>736816987but its not the worse option, theyre just as valuable to groups. Theyre equal>excellent balance angle my friendliterally any other version of WoW has demonstrably better class balance, so yes. If your retarded shitskin """balancing""" worked we wouldnt have groups running 19 warriors in vanilla
>>736796437>Factions can capture towns, cities and regions through world PvPWill never, ever work without actively balanced servers, which won't happen.
>>736817196>literally any other version of WoW has demonstrably better class balancefriendly reminder classic warsong is the only thing in any version of the game where every class is desired in a BiS comp
When it comes to "Hybrid tax" and why retail players hate the concept, consider how they play WoW: >pick class>pick race (dont worry you can pay to change htis later) >level it (dont worry you can pay to skip this) >you are now max level and decided you will be a "dps + paladin" and invested like 2 hours into the character tops if even that>click "random group finder">you are now in a group>dps meter pops up >the other dps classes are all within 0.5% of you on average, as they should be because nobodyi nvested fucking anything to get there, it's just soulless benchmarking >nobody "recruited" you to build a great roster (unless you're in a top 0.00000001% guild going for world firsts that controls entire server economies and shit) >nobody cares what class you are, it's all random matchmaking>even if you join a guild you were able to join it indirectly via some application to raid ingame form and it's fairly class agnostic because every class is basically the same In this context it makes perfect sense that hybrid classes shouldn't perform any worse in their given spec. Pic related is all that matters to a retail player. It just isn't how vanilla works, and they don't get that. The guy whining about hybrids ITT hasn't played vanilla, he thought spriests are mana batteries. Spriests were brought mostly for the shadow damage debuff, and they had some cool capabilities for raid utility (including being able to heal in their dps spec, and the dispel utility) He doesn't care about any of that. He wants to be the shadow priest in pic related. He needs to be 1 of the 3 dps and he needs to be 100% equal to them. That's all he cares about.
paladins should only have the holy tree in classic, then they add protection in TBC and then they finally become a full class in wrath when ret is added
>>736817141paladin isnt so popular though, its only 1/6 the popularity of warrior at best in vanilla eratry again shitskin
>>736791693My deranged, LITERALLY NEVER EVER pipe dream for an ideal Classic+ server:Retool TBC and WotLK so that the content (quests, dungeons, raids) are more in-line with Vanilla philosophy and design (i.e. less daily quest bullshit, mechanics are more Vanilla-like). Downscale them so that they start at lower levels and just become additional options for leveling, and their endgame content is at 60. Make it so that gear is never objectively progressed past Naxx level. That's the power cap for tiers' vertical progression, basically, and everything else is just horizontal progression that has different effects. So there might be gear from Black Temple that's better than Naxx gear for specific builds, but it's not mathematically superior in every way.Also fix some of the retarded writing.Focus on designing content that's suited for a wide range of levels, not JUST endgame. More leveling zones, more quests in existing zones, new dungeons in lower brackets, expand on existing dungeons, while also still adding endgame stuff. Build on what's there. Similarly, don't just add new classes but add new options to existing classes with talents (i.e. Ranged Rogue, Melee Hunter, holy damage DPS Priest, Warlock tank, actually supported Shaman tank), don't just add new races but add options for existing races.My biggest worry with this is having people spread out too much over content. Like, making it harder to find groups for specific dungeons because there's more dungeons in each bracket and people have more options for zones. It might be hard to find a group for Maraudon if everybody likes leveling in Zul'Drak more than Desolace, and World PvP would happen less if the world was TOO big.
>>736816893It's really sad. All the people who have invested a decade+ into WoW, collecting mounts, transmog, achievements, pets and the like, and have developed a psychological dependence on their accounts and characters. They've been biologically engineered to be the most obedient and prodigal paypigs
>>736817540>be 1/5 of the group>expect to contribute as well as any other 1/5this makes sense>be shitskin>expect to pick the op class at the start and automatically be better than all other dpsthis does not make sense. It requires 3rd worlder thinking.>He needs to be 1 of the 3 dps and he needs to be 100% equal to them. That's all he cares about.because it is all that matters shitskin. If fluff mattered warriors wouldnt be half of a 40man raid in vanilla, but clearly dispel isnt enough to make up for being objectively worse damage
>>736791782I'd play through Classic again if they tried to balance it. It's why SoD had such a massive draw for people but then flatlined when they just made it ultra retail 9000.A Season of Balance would be cool, the only true problem child would be making Shamans be good at tanking since nobody would ever roll Horde if Alliance had 3 working tanks but Horde only had 2.I feel like changing Stoneclaw or having a talent that does so where the threat produced by it is transferred to the Shaman instead of the Totem would be a thing for example.The problem with a SoB is that the devs would have to strictly adhere to the concept of only adding new abilities if it's absolutely necessary. I don't think I could fix Retardins without adding at least 1 same for Shaman or Druid.But shit like SPriest, Boomkin, and others are absolutely fixable while staying within the constrains of Vanilla, a lot of their talents or abilities are simply retarded, like the Balance tree having "+10% crit chance on moonfire initial hit 5/5" type of retarded.Obviously a chunk of the SoD devs could never be trusted with it nor anyone on retail, so it'd be a bitch to even make.
>>736791693Maybe they'll do it like atheism+ where they just add feminism and faggotry and youre a bad person if you dont like it
given the sweet time they have taken to come out with classic+ (2 to 3 years of dev time) here are some realistic and achievable goals to make classic+ something that would actually create hype and bring in players >one new class>one new profession>three new BG's>four new races (using new customizable models based on vanilla skeletons)>high elves and furbolg for alliance>goblin and ogre for horde >new dungeons>new levelling areas>hundreds of new quests>existing vanilla classes and specs that are below standard buffed up to be viable choices for end game pve and pvp>new gear, new sets, new mounts>bring in and expand on the new specs created for SoD like healer mage and warlock tank>launches with Molten Core, progressing through raid phases as they've done in classic and anniversary>one new raid at launch as an alternative to molten core>more new raids planned as patches are releasedthis is my expectation.
>>736818138See what I mean? His entire post focuses just on the fact that he is 1/5th of the group. Nothing else matters in random dungeon finder. You're just 1 of 5, so you statistically have to output a number that is exactly representative of that. That's modern WoW in a nutshell. No considerations like raid utility or ease of gearing or synergies.
>>736801256>>736802050Epoch had incredibly schizophrenic design, and it was clear to me that they had some designers that were really good and in tune with making great content for Vanilla, and some that were total retards that just had no understanding of proper difficulty tuning or Vanilla philosophy.The rework of WC was absolutely magnificent. Really well-balanced, fun bosses, beautiful aesthetic, good to explore. The rework of DM was a disaster. Really long, overtuned, the bosses were insanely hard (especially for what is literally the FIRST DUNGEON IN THE GAME). I was overgeared and overleveled as a Warrior tank and Chuck was hitting me for ~30% of my HP bar with his auto attacks after we got him out of his shredder. Smite has a mechanic where you have to run out of AoEs or die, but he does that mechanic while stunlocking the tank so they can't run out of the AoEs. Just poorly-designed.And this extends to the rest of the server. Glittermurk Mines was awesome and a great new dungeon, and the new Jintha'alor-like area in Blasted Lands is cool. But the rework of BRD ruins the dungeon (my favorite dungeon) because the bosses become genuinely retarded and miserable to actually fight. And it felt miserable in the same way DM was, as if there was just one designer that thought making shit more opaque, difficult, and brutal was how to make it fun, so any content he worked on would be a disaster.That paired with all of the problems at its launch and immediately being followed by Bronzebeard REALLY fucked Epoch.
NO TRANNIES
>>736818309the retailifcation of vanilla is guaranteed, and with it the failure of classic+ because why would you play retail lite when you can just play retail instead?
>>736809273>like crusader strike on paladin (yet another reddit favorite)Crusader Strike was on Palies in the Beta.It only got removed because Tigole hated Paladins.
>>736818357>You're just 1 of 5, so you statistically have to output a number that is exactly representative of that. correct, because if you dont then you dont get into the group>No considerations like raid utility or ease of gearing or synergiesif these made up for doing no damage then you would see spriests stacked to 20 in vanilla wow raids, instead its only warriors
>>736818010It is certainly shocking how willingly people accepted it. I was a player for almost 20 years and I only realized it when a friend of mine told me his habit of going to the shop and buying something once a month, looking at it once in-game, then logging out of his retail character until next month.
>>736815138Under this logic, Warriors should do way less DPS than Mages, Warlocks, Rogues, and Hunters, because those four can't tank. So Warriors should be in the cuck shed for DPS, too. But that's obviously fucking stupid.
>>736818554why would they make classic play like the most unpopular version of world of warcraft? retail is a ghost town
The aggregate of suggestions from this thread is fucking retarded.Like genuinely these opinions are necessarily from people with mental retardation. Unable to comprehend what the changes you are suggesting would actually do to the game.
>>736818996>/v/tards are stupid retarded idiots who can't walk and chew bubblegum at the same timeYou don't say
breaking news: its unironically over btw, hope you didn't spend any money.
>>736818991>why would blizzard do something retarded?
>>736791693Classic+retail is for people who want to give money to homosexual pedophile trannies. I will never give blizzard another penny and if you do, you are a faggot that supports pedo tranny homo jews.
>>736819116It's crazy to me that people actually spent money on private server cash shop in the first place. Like how could it end any other way lol?
>>736819116I had fun, haven't played the server in years though.
>>736791693you can't.you need to make a new game, and accept that it won't make as much money as wow.
>>736791693>he is excited for classic+retail
>>736819116TURTLE TRANNYS ON SUICIDE WATCH.. AGAIN
>>736819178wow paypigs know no bounds... the players are permanently ruined by blizzard microtransactions
>>736818991retail is the most popular version by far
>>7368191162 more weeks?
>>736819313its real, court filing was yesterday, they're donehttps://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71235075/56/1/blizzard-entertainment-inc-v-turtle-wow/
He killed millions
>>736793292You can actually create more and more difficult encounters that dont reward with powerful itemd that will trivialize the next encounter. You can just increase the hp and power of bosses, put short enrage timers, and do difficult mechanics, and not havr the boss give anything other than the glory to have killed it. But mentally deranged wow players are addicted to their power creep and their purple items, so ofc if blizz did this most of them would hate it. But thats not because doing that its wrong, its because the playerbase is wrong.Unironicall “you think you do but you dont”
>>736819558classic players are classic players because they want to avoid the difficulty of retailyou cant make classic difficult or theyll melt down
>>736802732dungeons were way harder in the private servers than in retail vanilla and people liked them. On nostalrius for example all dungeon enemies did elite level dmage, even the non elites, so deadmines non elite miners were doing like 5x the damage they do on blizzards version of classic, people thought that was just the way the game was made back then and it was one of the reasons people thought vanilla was a harder version of wow before classic came out.
>>736802732>>736803538posts made from zoomers who never played back then
>>736816021Balance druids are useless in raids aside from their aura which isn't really better than bringing an additional mage, they go oom immediately and deal basically no damage. In PvP all they can do is rot and run away, if they're indoors they can't run away because roots and travelform doesn't work indoors. Ferals can deal alright damage in pvp if they farm a fucking mallet from grnomer and use a craftable level 40 something blue head for the rest of the game and powershift with manapotions every encounter, obviously an unintended mechanic. In PvP they can't catch up to targets unless they can root or run fast which they can't indoors because they have no slows like other melee classes, they also need a lot of setup to deal damage and run oom instantly by shifting out of enemy roots so they're pretty useless there too. Just a few tweaks like allowing them to do shit indoors, a slight damage buff and a reduced form change MP cost would probably be enough.
>>736819687It WAS harder, but it was harder because the playerbase was much worse at the game.
>>736819819ferals can deal alright damage in PvE*
>>736819953crowd pummeler farming is the most soulless, contrived, retarded and asinine, un-intended mechanic exploiting, sad thing to do with your free time ever conceived
>>736819116TURTLETROONS IN THE GRAVE TONIGHTEVERYBODY JUST HAVE A GOOD TIME
>>736819819Also they can't* root or run fast indoors, I really should proofread my shit before posting instead of afterwards.
>>736819819No class is useless in TBC, you need to really get that through your head. You people scoff at the easy content but then you pretend like you need certain compositions to beat the bosses. Which is it? Easy game or hard game? No you only care about parsing. Go back to retail.
>>736818804healing and tanking aren't valued the same in vanilla logic cause tanking is worthless in pvp while healing is goat in pvp.
>>736820280I don't know why you're talking about TBC, I'm replying to the part about druids at the bottom of the post.
>>736820280>tbcThis thread is about vanilla.>>736820328Tank raid spots are extremely limited in raids, so if your class could only tank that getting invited to a raid would be impossible.
>>736791693I'd make the levels 1 to 100, and I'd have those levels represent a percentile of power scaling: a modestly geared group of ten level 10s could stand a chance against a fresh 100 with all greens. There could be a raid of level 1s doing Wailing Caverns, stuff like that.Instead of the extremely creative and innovative idea of "mythic but a higher number mythic", I'd incorporate special rewards for people who solo, say, Deadmines at level 80 or 100 (remembering that it's redesigned as being challenging for any group of players whose levels add up to a certain number). I'd also add the potential for gear progression at basically any level, which might make it so that an extremely geared level 10 could take on a level 20 or 30.In addition to this, instead of rereleasing every expansion as "classic", I'd retrofit content across multiple expansions into one, massive, game, with modifications to add depth and pacing. Opening the dark portal requires attunement from finishing bwl and aq, getting to Northrend requires attunement from black temple.The main idea behind these changes is to, in PvE, stop content from becoming obsolete or redundant, and, in PvP, stop low level players from feeling totally powerless in the face of someone who needs to gank lowbies to compensate for the fact they have buried penis syndrome. In PvE 20 man molten core at level 100 could be as challenging/rewarding as 40 man level 50 molten core. Zul'Gurub would eventually become a 5 man dungeon, whatever. And in PvP players don't have to rely on the kindness of another level capped player, and can gather other lowbies to fight against the ganker.This probably would work best as the first three games: Original, Burning Crusade, and Wrath of the Lich King, further content could conceivably be added, but the nature of this version of classic would make it difficult to incorporate the Cataclysm changes
>>736816021They need to make it so a weapon has some kind of meaning for druids, just being stat sticks isn't good enough. It works for hunters better since they still have a scaling weapon (main) but druids don't scale at all the moment they hit 60 and weapons do nothing but provide a little stat for them, Sod implemented a ton of druid weapons with AP attached to them and that worked better.
>>736820449In vanilla: pvp > pveSorry
>>736819819>In PvP all they can do is rot and run away,balance druids are like an S tier class for world PvP btw. A big problem for "balancing" balance druids in classic+ would be the fact that if they were any stronger they would be way to OP in PvP. You would have to basically just have some sort of mana efficiency thing added to moonkin form so they dont go oom so fast in 5 mans or raids quite as fast.
>>736820596ok then ret paladins are perfectly balanced and there's no need to nerf them
>>736820638I agree, they should stay where they are. give them a taunt though
>>736820738taunt doesn't work on players
>>736820753exactly
>>736820541Swipe not scaling with anything blew my mind when I found that out. Not even with AP. Why the fuck would they do that?
>>736820624Balance druids aren't that great in pvp, all they can do is run away and rot for 20 minutes until you die. They can't do shit to you if you're indoors, if you got a buddy with you they can't do much because their CC is garbage. They can't swap moonkin against melee because they need NS in the talent tree, the only spec that works is a makeshift rot spec that barely utilizes any of the balance druid's abilities. It has to be rebalanced to a point where they can cast starfire in moonkin form instead of running away and going bear.
>>736820851le hybrid tax even though elemental shamans can oneshot anyone with minimal effort.
the year is 2006ret paladins and balance druids are complaining that their spec isnt raid viable because they want access to TFury and Ateishthe year is 2026ret paladins and balance druids are STILL complaining their spec isnt raid viable because they want access to TFury and Ateish
>>736821261No today they want balance changes to their trees and abilities, aren't you listening?
>>736821317and why do you think they want their spec to be raid viable, brainlet?
>>736821384To deal damage on par with the other specs and not chug 150 mana potions every raid even though they're only dealing 50% the damage of other classes?
>>736794079true
>>736795464you couldnt be more wrong. just play tbc for a couple hours. you would be surprised
>>736820328>healing and tanking aren't valued the same in vanilla logicdoesnt matterwarrior isnt a pure so it shouldnt be above pures. Some % of its weight should be going to it tanking so it should always be worse than a hunter
>>736816226>And a warrior can NEVER healBandges.
>>736796087all i want is more sprawling mega-dungeons like BRD-- no other MMO has done this typa shit before or sinceit was so peak
>no one in here can agree nor does anyone understand the "spirit" of classic.In the end retail will be the main focud. Enjoy the past versions but expecting blizz to change history for you is beyond retarded.
SOD was classic+
>>736821801because skipping most of the dungeon isnt good design
>>736821065>It has to be rebalanced to a point where they can cast starfire in moonkin form instead of running away and going bear.you just fundamentally dont understand wow pvp or the druid. you dont want to go moonkin form in pvp because it costs mana to go into moonkin and you dont want to be face tanking while casting spells anyways, you want to be able to go into cheetah, bear form, even cat form depending on the situation, that is how an actual hybrid works. not the retail type of "hybrid" where hybrid mostly just means you have different roles you can choose.
>>736791845Multiple generations of playersBoomers play classicZoomers play retailLook at the combined logs of classic and retail raids; that 9 million alleged sub number is absolutely true, that's before we even talk about paypigs - they made over 100 million from the $60 dollar mountI bet housing as well ensured Midnight was the best selling expansion of all time. it definitely will be up there if it isn't
>>73680861740 man raids are pure soul, the fact it makes sweaty euroNEETs seethe is proof
>>736821658Warrior is melee so it deals more damage than a hunter that can keep their target at range without getting hit>b-but rogues are less tanky melees and deal less damage than a warriorRogues beat warriors, they have tons of stuns, sap, blind, vanish/stealth, it all makes sense.What I'm trying to say is that vanilla is balanced for PvP, not PvE. What happens in PvE literally doesn't matter because pvp is more important. It's what you grind your gear for, the ultimate endgame.
>>736816893What series besides FF could even come out with an MMO that could combat WoW? My brother still fucking plays classic and retail I believe. He's told me it's just something he does now lol.I've gotten the urge but I've stopped myself.
>>736821848so only linear dungeon design is good design?can you explain in complete sentences why that is the case?
>>736795589Parse chasing shouldn't be a huge deal if there's still a community of casuals/hardcores that don't care to be chasing server firsts and shit.
>>736821946When you literally can't go into travel form because you're standing in BRM it doesn't matter does it? You can't root the warrior that's charging at you, you can't do anything but die. A shaman could kill everyone in the room instantly but a druid has to run away, that's not cool dude. A druid should be able to kill just as well as anyone else.
>>736822056It's impossible - there's no way an MMO can release in 2026 with a big enough budget where it would be worth abandoning WoW/FF14 etc and still be profitable, the playerbase just isn't there even in a perfect worldThere's a reason you would see a new MMO every 6 months 10-15 years ago and why they seem extremely sparse these days
>>736821848>you can choose between going through the whole thing or just going to whatever bosses you need>this is bad because...uh...it's not good
>>736822131shaman also cant ghost wolf indoors , druids can cat form and sprint indoors
>>736822128>transmogStopped reading right there, get that shit out of here.
>>736796456>>736798775WotLK and TBC but it's all 60 content.
>>736822336nah make 80 the level cap after all, more time spent leveling and bigger talent trees are cooler
>>736822272Shaman doesn't need ghostwolf, they stun everyone with a grenade, pop elemental mastery, chain lighting/earth shock people to death. Druids can't burst like that at all, all they can do is run away, if they can't run away they're stuck in bearform dealing no damage until they die. I beg you to see the light man, it doesn't have to be this way.
>>736822068you save development time not making stuff nobody will ever touch and can instead make more content people will actually play
As someone who main paladin during classic, tbc and wotlk period, i think tbc 2.4.3 ret paladin is best by balance wise. Slap seal of blood on alliance and seal of vengeance on horde and its good to go. Cuz 2.4.3 had perfect sense of being viable but no op in pve. Dps is at average at best but huge buffs (mana seals and %3 raid wide crit on target), tanking also same, not great boss tank but saves the day at trash and boss adds. About pvp, cant say the same at 2v2 arena but 3v3 and 5v5 also viable as ret and holy.
keep it approximately the same mechanically but lift some of the good ideas from ascension:>cool unlockable earnable cosmetics(NOT CASH SHOP SLOP) from doing challenges, like playing through the game hardcore or in "hard mode">ability to prestige your character and show everyone you completed hardcore X times on that character without dying once in any of those runes>some kind of rewards shop where you gain points from doing all these challenges to unlock more cool cosmetics, as well as unique ones thematic to specific challenges(ie ascension had one where if you are outside of rested zones for more than a few minutes you "fall asleep and never wake up" and it rewards you with an emote where your guy takes a nap, that's cute)>absolutely bring in that challenge where you need to clear every dungeon solo and your level is capped until you do, probably the most fun ive ever had in wowso yeah basically just add a bunch of solo content in the form of replayability to keep adding more stuff for completionists to do and more rewards for them to show off and compete with each other overi think it would be completely unintrusive(aside from the cosmetics possibly being garish) and give people cool challenges to aspire to
>>736822535>hey guys should we try to reproduce the dungeon design that birthed the most popular MMO in world history?>nah we should just make linear corridor design that every failed MMO uses, because complex dungeons require effort200 iq giga genius
>>736796456>>736798775You know very well WotLK and TBC were much more than "fixed classes and more dungeons and professions". I don't understand you people immidiately accusing anyone who wants better balance and more content as "they just want <insert_expansion>"
>>736794708>the modern playerbase won't like itThis. Modern video gamers dont like experiencing new things and learning things anymore. Gotta clear content quickly so they can get back to their dalies in some gacha.
>>736822707retail is more popular than classic right now for a reason classic cant succeed when good games are available, only in dead markets like 2004
>>736823026Like what? Flying mounts? Dailies? Rep grinds? Dungeon finder? Heroics? Centralized PvP hubs like wintergrasp? I don't want any of it.
>>736823421Oh and arenas, that's a good one. Who the fuck wants arenas in vanilla? Retailfags that's who.
>CLASSIC SUCKS RETAIL IS BETTER FUCK YOUWhy are you even in this thread?
>>736821993This is just typical Warriorfag cope about how it's perfectly fine that they're the best DPS, the best tanks, and one of the best PvP classes in the game by a significant margin for totally arbitrary reasons. At least with Mages they're willing to acknowledge that their class is broken and retarded, and people are allowed to hate Mage players for ruining the game.If you're going to argue that it's okay that hybrids are total dogshit because they can do multiple roles if they put in a lot of effort, then you're directly stating that because Warriors can tank and are objectively the most durable class in the game, they should do way less damage than squishier classes that can't tank. You can't then trot out "BUT MUH UTILITY" when your own argument shifts against you. Warrior has utility, too, but you'd be pissed if they did less damage just because they have Hamstring or Intimidating Shout.The fact of the matter is that the hybrid tax shouldn't be severe enough to make a spec nonviable, and a spec being actually garbage means that it's designed poorly. There should be no "trap" specs that troll you if you decide to play them. And that includes Protection being kind of ass. It's not fun for the spec/class you like to just be objectively dogshit, and it doesn't make for interesting balance or engaging mechanics. That's just a cope from minmaxing faggots that like that they're top dogs that get to shit on other people.t. Warrior main
>>736823665to make (You) mad
>>736823715>warriors can no longer dps>getting a raid spot is now impossible because only 5% of the raid needs to be tanks
>>736821993>Rogues beat warriors, they have tons of stuns, sap, blind, vanish/stealthNone of which matters to end game PvE, which is where all the best gear is. Warrior fags are just high off the fact that Furor buffed his own class endless across vanilla and Warrior ended up being the only hybrid that didn't pay the hybrid tax. Which is kind of based of him, but also needs to be fucking fixed for the health of the game.
>>736823715>This is just typical Warriorfag copeI main druid>t. Warrior main#nochanges would be perfect for you thenI argue that classes should have distinct damage profiles as long as there is a good reason for it.
>>736823918>Play Hunter>Getting a raid spot is virtually impossible because raids need like 2 and they haven't been optimal raid dps since 1.6 (or whatever)>Play Rogue>Getting a raid spot is entirely based on the guild not being able to attract enough Warriors
>>736814887>>shaman>no changes neededBut their PvE DPS specs are useless. Both of them go OOM in mere seconds.
>>736824018neither of those are hybrid classes
>>736824063Which makes it even worse, retard. The two solo physical dps specs are getting out performed in physical dps by a hybrid (who also get the premier tanking spot).
>>736824043Ele shamans can also oneshot players in PvP without much effort and kill full geared hunters with lighting shield, how would you balance this?
After never playing warrior I finally tried it in classic refresh and holy fuck it is on a different playing field entirely. The wombo combo you unlock towards 30s for that FAT AOE was such a great feeling. Don't even remotely understand the whole "woe is me warrior leveling r teh hard!" because just doing the basic dungeons once or twice was enough to keep my warrior gear updated throughout most of the levels. Corpsemaker covered the 30s for me since I didn't even try to make money either. Yeah I couldn't kill a red mob easily but neither can most classes. But I was crushing green pussy en masse with almost no down time just chaining infinite mobs.
>>736824168So what you're saying is they need a lot of work. Nerf PvP capabilities, buff PvE capabilities.
>>736823918You literally took the opposite of my point. My point is that it'd be retarded if warriors couldn't DPS, just like it's retarded that hybrids can't DPS just because they can heal/tank.Fucking dumbass.
>>736824163then buff them
>>736791693What's the best WotLK private server now?
>>736824258Sure. Of course now the physical dps is even more busted than the rest of the dps, and overtunned for all the content. Buffing them requires so much more work than just nerfing Warrior's numbers lol.
>>736824239it would be retarded if warriors couldn't dps because of how little tanks you actually need. if you needed 9 tanks for a raid it would be fine if warriors couldnt dps
>>736824319ok, so how about warriors, rogues, and hunters all do the same dps while ret and balance continue to be pvp specs. problem solved
>>736791782that's why you don't change itinstead you add more zones and things to do on top of it
>>736824401>Warriors still don't have to pay the hybrid tax>But Paladins, Druids, Shamans and Priests do.Nope, Warriors need their DPS nerfed down further, or they need to significantly overhaul the hybrids.
>>736824325This is complete nonsense because you're so brainrotten about Warrior being the best that you're operating from the idea that only they should fill those DPS slots and only they can fill those tank slots (which is accurate but they're the best at it). That same logic can be used to say that it's fucked up that classes that can heal do worse DPS than those that can't because there's only so many healer slots and a bunch of classes to fill the slots.You're implicitly agreeing that it's stupid that hybrids can't DPS and are forced to fill limited slots, but according to you it's only stupid when it's specifically Warrior that can't do both. Because Warrior doesn't pay the hybrid tax.
>>736824401warriors do not get to keep doing the same, because they are a hybrid and should pay the hybrid tax, right? They shouldnt be comparable to pure dps like rogues and huntersMages and Warlocks should be above warrior as well. Warriors can be down near shamans and shadow priest
>>736824490>tank slotsThere are 2 "tank slots" out of 40. I would be fine with warriors not being able to DPS if that wasn't the case.>because there's only so many healer slots and a bunch of classes to fill the slots.How do you not understand that more slots for a role means it's easier to get a raid spot as that role?
>>736824578Warriors can't heal, maybe that's a retail thing but there is no warrior heal spell in vanilla.
>>736823408>retail is more popular than classic right now for a reasonbecause there's like 5000x more people playing video games than in 2006 you retard
>>736824645hybrid means hybrid, it doesnt mean healerwarriors are hybrids
>>736824709and those people choose to play retail wow instead of classic because classic is shit
>>736824645So? Priests can't tank yet they still pay the hybrid tax and have abysmal dps.
>>736824606I do understand that, it's just completely irrelevant to the argument and displays that your distinction is just arbitrary. Warriors are the ONLY class that can tank raids, but there are four classes that can heal raids. So there's relatively similar number of slots. So if your argument is that it's fine that Warrior is both the best tank and the best DPS because they couldn't fill slots if they were only the best tanks (which is bullshit, because other classes are still brought along despite obviously being mathematically worse), then the same argument means healers should be able to DPS just as well as Warrior because there's a limited number of healer slots for more classes.It's just arbitrary and stupid reasons to say that Warrior shouldn't pay the hybrid tax. Which I agree with. They SHOULDN'T pay the hybrid tax. They should be able to do a lot of damage and be tanks. So should the other hybrids. You twisted the argument into being the opposite of what I said because you're so brainrotten of the idea that Warriors should just be the best for some reason.
>>736823715>i view the entire game through the lens of a 3rd party websitethanks for telling us you suck dick, nobody asked though
>>736824709>>736823408just to show you how retarded you are, if you want to use steam as a baseline for how big the pc market is it had 60k concurrent users avg in 2006now in 2026 it has 42 million concurrent avgThat is literally unironically a 700 times bigger market. Does retail WoW have 700 times more subs than vanilla? Lets look at the numbers>vanilla WoW: 5 million subscribers at around 2006>current WoW: 9 million subscribers if generous (most estimates 7m) So if you actually want a fair comparison then you can estimate that vanilla WoW was something like 400x more popular in the current market size than retail WoW is nowretail WoW is a retarded fuckup
>>736796087so turtlewow
>>736824221Doing both those things are a problem when PvP and PvE isn't designed separately. In vanilla you have different specs that do different things, Ele shams murder people in PvP and slay dungeons if they get to drink, they suck in raids because they can't keep up in mana usage. If they could both slay in pvp and pve they would be overpowered as fuck because that mana efficiency carries over into pvp. They would need to nerf the elemental shaman damage for pvp bringing it on par with mages and warlocks, this way you would end up with just another mage or warlock variant. They could design specs separately for pvp and pve but then you would end up with just another vanilla variant. So what is the answer?
>>736824606>There are 2 "tank slots" out of 40Four Horsemen requires 8. 3-4 is typically, with some, like Four Horsemen requiring way more.
>>736824893>>I think these classes that are shafted by balance should be made viable and useful, and it's bad design that they're not>YOU'RE A FUCKING PARSEFAGkys retard
>>736824909ESL?Nobody is talking about vanillaI said classic multiple times. Theyre directly competing right now in 2026 and retail is crushing classic. 2004 wow didnt have a better alternative, it cant stand up against real competition
>>736824964if you dont play vanilla then stop arguing about it
>>736824957>you would end up with just another vanilla variantretail variant*pardon my drunk
>>736825035Nice projection anon.
>>736824984Paladins are extremely viable and useful. The problem is that you're a retoilet player who doesn't understand that in vanilla you play a class, not a spec.
>>736824957>If they could both slay in pvp and pve they would be overpowered as fuck you mean on par with warriors and rogues> this way you would end up with just another mage or warlock variant. which is the better design, because nobody cares about PvP and ESPECIALLY nobody cares about dungeons, but raids have bis gear so raid viability matters the most
>>736819116then I'm just done playing WoW.
>>736819116shit i never got to do naxxramus, againgoodbye my friend, it was funt. ambershire priest discipline on turtle wow was so kino
>>736825094>in vanilla you play a class, not a spec.You dont actually, you play a spec and have to go back to your trainer to play a different speca ret paladin cannot heal or tankIf paladins were useful they wouldnt be the least popular class in vanilla.
>>736825075you're parroting outdated shit you read about vanilla because you never actually played it
Warriors being (potential) top DPS is integral to the game.They're the most frustrating class to level *unless being fed blue gear every level*, cannot farm open world content like other classes, cannot solo elite quests like other classes, cannot farm dungeons solo like other classes, cannot regenerate health like other classes outside of eating/first aid, cannot rely on spells or a pet and are at the complete mercy of weapon skill like other classes, are widely considered to be a free HK in world pvp if they are solo and even in full epics can be kited to death by a good mage in greens... the list goes on. If we were to take raiding out of the game, Warrior, objectively, would be the WORST class in the game and it wouldn't be close.People hyperfixate on an activity you do for 2-3 hours per week as if that's the only thing to do in the game. "Muh parses" *proceeds to piss and moan on the forums*. The entire discourse around SoD, 99% of the time, was menstruating about Warriors still being too strong in raids and *insert class* being too weak in raids. You want this shit, go play retail.I'd also like to add that Warrior stacking in raids blows if you're a Warrior because you can go weeks or even months without solid gear upgrades yet you're still expected to rock up every week with full consumes/buffs despite Warriors being the worst at farming gold.
>>736825096>warriors and roguesEle sham is one spec, warriors and rogues have 1 viable pvp spec each just like shamans.>nobody cares about PvPLmao, you don't care about vanilla, that much is clear.
>>736791693SoD, mostly. The thing people enjoy about vanilla or "classic" is the world of OG WoW. SoD had that and added to it with some fun gimmicks, while also experimenting with a shit ton of class changes that made the game much, much more fun to play for everyone that wasn't a warrior main.
>>736824984Shafted how exactly? What classes in Vanilla are not viable or useful?
>>736825175>the least popular class in vanillaThat's not true at all what the fuck are you talking about?>>736825223>go play retail.The issue is that retoilets who do not play classic try to argue in these threads for some reason.
>>736825175They're the least popular because a) they're only available on one faction and b) retards like you pick them expecting to be a Warrior with heals and a bubble. Shaman is also the least popular class along with Paladin because of faction exclusivity and a little of "retards picking spell caster expecting to be a Warrior"
>>736825339I think that the retoilet does not understand why paladins and shaman have make up a lower percentage of the population on servers because he doesn't realize that they're faction-exclusive.
>>736825223Warrior mains truly are delulu.
>>736825094>>it's stupid that some classes are just actually dogshit and are forced into doing one specific thing despite being "hybrids", especially when other classes are able to fulfil multiple roles easily>you're a retail playerNot being the retard allegations, anon.
>>736818448The guy who reworked WC/DM left in like 2023 or something. A big problem with Epoch behind the scenes is their talent left/got sniped by Ascension since Dutch wants people who know how to work with 3.3.5 and will pay them BIG.Vibe coders and ideas guys can only take you so far, which is why Epoch was pretty stagnant on polish/bug fixes post Beta test 3 which was 2 years before launch. Don't believe the bullshit cope about the core merge with Ascension was what introduced all the bugs, it was always known to be buggy in the beta tests and it barely changed for launch.
>>736825007Nobody gave a shit about sharded classic with retarded custom changes you stupid fuck
>>736825383you can add paladin and shaman together and theyre still far behind real classes like warrior and magethey arent valuable or viable, numbers prove it
>>736825175got another two decades of seethe in the tank?
>>736825207>Fights that have been optimized for years well beyond intended design prove that there will only be 2 tanking slots moving forwardYeah nice evidence bro. Not that it matters. If classic+ comes warriors will get cucked the same way they were in Wrath and for the majority of SoD. It's pretty much inevitable at this time.
>>736825223100%niggers complaining about warr dont and have never played 'nillasimple as
>>736825432>you can add paladin and shaman together and theyre still far behind real classes like warrior and mageno they're not. did you not realize that we also have access to population data and can easily see that you made that up?
>>736825223This is some top tier bait. 8.8/8 mate.
>>736825438
>>736825268All "hybrids" for starters, you lunatic.
>>736825523>refutation: not found
>>736825571the only useless one is druid, and even then they still have niches in certain pvp types
>>736825571explain
>>736791693I'd make the team figure out how to make tbc classes and specs work in classic to start with, then have them design the plus content around that. Vanilla classes are too one-note, tbc ain't motherfucking rocket science but it's still a great improvement on viable specs within classes and simply having QoL fixes blizz noticed over the course of vanilla like hunters trapping in combat.
>>736825484Yes it would've been popular if it didn't have retarded retail changes, how stupid are you
>>736825621dont bother. the only thing faggots like that care about is wowlogs
>>736825676no being EVEN MORE DOGSHIT would not have made it popular you disgusting favelamonkey
>>736825621The hybrids are useful for healing and buffs, and that's it. So they're not really hybrids, their glorified healers. Which was like the number of one complaint about vanilla at the time.
>>736825438Did Priests or Druids ever seethe as hard as Paladins have since the game came out? I seem to remember pinks always yelling the loudest about wanting to be Warriors when the answer was just, you know, rerolling
>>736825757shaman/paladin are the 2nd most popular class in the game when you adjust for faction exclusivity
>>736825621Paladin is just as useless, and Shaman is only barely rescued from the same fate by being not quite as poor a healer when compared to Priest. That's not going into the fact that all three of them are entirely reduced to (bad) "healer".
>>736825767To be fair on Paladins, they had the most incomplete and boring gameplay out there.
>>736825767Literally why would Priests ever cry, there was no period of WoW where they were not excellent.
>>736825790>paladin>uselesswe get it, you've never played classic
>>736825790>being a healer is badIf you didn't want to heal then why did you roll a healer?
>>736825836Because shadow is unplayable in raids, just like ret.
>>736825828That's actually the intended experience of paladins, they were designed to be the most noob friendly class in the game with the least amount of responsibilities, easiest damage rotation easiest everything. A literal class for retards is what paladin is.
>>736825514there are ~20k warrior parses on patchwerkthere are ~4k shaman parses and ~6k paladin parsestogether theyre still leagues behind warrior, the classes are objectively not valuable or they wouldnt be so unpopular. Theyre still behind mage and priest as well.
>>736825918No it's not. The lead class designer is on record saying it was a rush job that wasn't poorly thought out. And Furor probably gimping them to stop his fav from being threatened, but that's just speculation.>>736825876>Rolls a hybrid.>Why you so mad you only healing?kek
>>736825957>parsesare you fucking retarded?https://www.warcrafttavern.com/population/classic/us/whitemane/
>>736825767Paladin had reason to complain, because when you roll up the heavy armored holy warrior you don't pick it to spend 200 hours getting to endgame just to be told that you should put on a dress and heal like a worse Priest. On top of that, we know for a fact that the class was shafted right before release specifically because Jeff Kaplan is a faggot that has a grudge against Paladins because he was a raging autist that seethed for years about getting raped by Paladins in EQ. So when the class is boring, lame, and completely fails to do what it's sold as, then you have reason to complain.That said, Paladin players do tend to have a case of Main Character Syndrome, but so do Warriors.
>>736825767Priests had the mental acuity to understand that they'd be desired as healers most of the time. That, and the game does a better job of straight up telling you that "hey, you're a Priest, you'll be healing most of the time". Shadow, whilst being a meme in pve, was a monster in pvp/dueling.Druids had a lot more tools and were the original jack of all trades. You can tank/heal in dungeons but you were never as good as Warrior or Priest. DPS was a meme but it's difficult to beat a good Druid in wpvpPaladins thought they were going to be "holy warriors" and couldn't come to terms with the fact that they were healers/support. A cursory glance at your abilities and talent trees would have indicated as much, but I think they're just retarded. Lots of ESL browns play them to "deus vult" then get mad when Warriors upstage them. A good holy Paladin is a linchpin in pvp and reckoning is just fun. Ret in duels is pretty damn good too if you can LoS casters/ranged.
>>736826018>That warrior skyscraperlmao. I guess all the rogues and hunters finally got sick of not getting spots and converted.
>>736826018parses are real data not your made up shit website
>>736826039Paladins were shit at release but after a bunch of patches they eventually became good.
>>736826039bad Warriors can at least just be fed gear and kept around to be useful. bad Paladins are just insufferable niggers that never get a raid spot
>>736826039>uhmm why can't i do everything a warrior does guys?>"ok sure you can but you have to give up your immunities and most efficient heals in the game">REEEEE THATS OUR IDENTITY YOU FUCKING CHUD JUST GIVE ME DIVINE STORMpaladins are the niggers of wow
>>736826154it is literally impossible to be bad at pressing flash of light
The correct answer is TBC class design in Vanilla world. The only people who really get shafted in TBC are Holy Paladins, and honestly, nobody cares.
>>736826131They became good at healing but I don't think I'd say they were good at anything else other than the occasional Reckbomb in PvP (which is just a meme). That's not really the point, though, because them being awful is just part of the problem. Them only being able to do one thing sucks, and them being outrageously boring and lame is a bigger problem.
>>736826273Ret Paladins are still pretty shit without seal twisting.
>>736826228equal dps is not everythingstrange how paladin still has bubble in every other expansion yet it doesnt stop warrior from being good
>>736826291Ret is legitimately good at 1v1. Prot is god tier at farming. Again priests don't complain despite having the same exact situation.
>>736826265you'd be surprisedi've run with paladins that got to 60 and never did their redemption questwho never knew what downranking waswho threw a shitfit when they're asked, nicely, to reapply blessingswho didn't want to install pallypower to make their easy job even easierpaladins generally have a massive fucking chip on their shoulder and only played the class in classic because they knew tbc was coming
>>736826323As they should
>>736791693Just continue to make good seasonal content by building on what SoD did with improvements.
>>736826228>No you don't understand, if you complete change your spec and remove all your dps talents you will have good healing>Therefore you can never have good dpsFucking browns.
>>736826013they took crusader strike away from paladins in beta at the last minute which totally fucked ret
>>736826334then why was every second discussion around SoD about dps balance? why is that the focal point of discussion around retail 99% of the time?
>>736826228>Warriors are allowed to be the best DPS, the only viable tank, and a staple of PvP>if another class even dares to hope that maybe they could be viable as DPS or tank they're niggersNah, Warriors are the niggers of Vanilla. They get everything and then ask for more gibmedats because they're entitled but think everybody else suffers. And the only tax they pay is being miserable to play solo for the first ~30 levels. Paladins are whiny bitches that want to be the main character, but they're right that it's total bullshit that they're only viable as Worse Priest.Mages are the jews of Vanilla, by the way. And just like real Jews they actually ruin the world more than the niggers.
THEY JUST HIT TURTLEWOW
>>736826273>The correct answer is TBC class designNOOOOOOOOOOOPEFUCK KILL COMMANDFUCK STEADY SHOTFUCK SNAKE TRAPFUCK ICE LANCEFUCK ARCANE BLASTFUCK ELEMENTAL TOTEMSFUCK SHADOWFIENDFUCK SEED OF CORRUPTIONFUCK ALL THE GAY NEW ABILITIES THAT ARE STILL SHITTING UP WOW
>>736826421classes in vanilla are not defined by their talent trees>>736826439they couldn't figure out how to balance it because it used all your mana. if it was left in the game "ret" would have still burned through its mana in 2 seconds because they still have to gear like a warrior to even keep up with tanks
>>736826480>Warriors are allowed to be the best DPS, the only viable tank, and a staple of PvPAs God intended. Maybe start dealing with it, yeah?
>>736826543they created this problem by making hybrid spells cost 2x as much mana as they should to tax them
>>736826509>KILL COMMAND>STEADY SHOTThese are fine. But Blizzard were cowards for not being brave enough to turn survival into a melee/melee weaving spec.
>>736791693Too many things to list them all, but the first change I would make is to make mana not regenerate at all naturally, the only way to regenerate mana should be from resting, potions, or dying and being revived by a spirit healer, not an in dungeon res. I would also make it so that if you do rest in a dungeon all mobs respawn.
>>736791693Just play retail
>>736826480this you bro?>>736825438
on nostalrius they accidentally made consecration scale with attack power and it made paladins an unironic S tier DPS because you did so much damage in AoE pulls and had so much utility, unless you had a damage meter and didnt know that paladin wasnt suppose to be doing the same damage as warrior/rogues you wouldnt know anything was amiss.The game really only needs little subtle tweeks like that to make the hybrids more "viable" but players are completely fucking retarded and want more more more and wow devs are also retarded (see SoD balance changes) and dont understand subtlety so you either get classic wow balance or retail balance which is why classic+ will only ever be retail- if they try and balance the game around hybrids.
>>736826273>every raid is an awkward "exactly one of every spec">rogues and warriors are only good at pvp>holy paladins are just fucking bad>shamans are the absolute fucking king of raids but at the same time garbage at everything elseTBC started the trend of treating specs as individual classes which would spiral into chaos and became a disaster.
>>736791693>cl*ssic devs scrambling for ideas on /v/ of all places when they suddenly have to think of something new instead of coasting on the coattails of their betters
>>736826612Spells should be expensive. Holy Light is a strong spell, thus it should be taxed. If you want to wear plate armor, you should be taxed for filling your health bar instantly.
>>736826543>classes in vanilla are not defined by their talent treesThen they should give back browns their 1.5 talents and see how viable they are. Talents matter and pretending they don't is stupid.
>>736826598Gigachad would play a dogshit class solely because he thinks they're cool and rise above adversity. Only niggers want their favorite class to be overwhelmingly stronger than every other option, because an Aryan spirit is not satisfied when victory is handed to them for free.>>736826657I don't like Paladin and I think Paladin players are faggots, they're just faggots that are right that it's stupid that it's forced to be a healer.
>>736826645they did and it sucks
>>736826763Warriors legitimately were broken since they couldn't actually do what the class was intended to do. Talents needed a rework. This does not apply to other classesImagine if mages were restricted to only using Fire in molten core. That's how 1.5 Warrior played
>>736826704>players are completely fucking retarded and want more more more and wow devs are also retarded (see SoD balance changes) and dont understand subtlety so you either get classic wow balance or retail balanceThere are tons of legitimate balance problems in classic, but people always end up making it retail instead of a more balanced version of vanilla.
>>736826796They didn't, unless you're talking about retail. Melee weaving was completely unintended in vanilla and TBC (although the deadzone removal was nice) and feels jank because of it.
>>736826793>chad is a moronYou aren't a chad bro
>>736826763warriors were better before 1.6 because sweeping strikes and retaliation didnt have charges. warriors were actually batshit insane OP in early vanilla
>>736826793>it's forced to be a healer.Only in raids, you can play ret when doing anything else. Same is true with priests and shaman but that's not a problem for some reason
>>736809273Do you play the same game mongoloid retoid?Aggrend made ret the best and warrior the worst pvp class in SODomy.How can you cry about warrior when they will clearly make ret the god spec once again.
>>736826837>Warriors legitimately were broken since they couldn't actually do what the class was intended to do.Imagine saying this unironically and believing the other hybrids are fine. Besides, Warriors could absolute tank prior to 1.6 so they were fine.
>>736826131They didn't become good until the end of TBC.
>>736826228Dunno, I only see one nigger arguing against a straw man here and it isn't a paladin.
I actually quite like the balance (or rather the supposed imbalance) of Vanilla because it encourages class interdependence. If I'm playing a Warrior, I can't solo the orange elite quest, so I need to party up with a Paladin who can heal me. If we're careful, we can grind down the mobs together without dying. If we want to do it faster, we can get a Mage dps. In retail you can just pull 50 mobs in an area, nuke them down and move on like it's nothing.
>>736826931>vanilla>ret is shit at raids, therefore paladins are shit>tbc>holy is shit at raids, but that doesn't mean that paladins are shitexplain
>>736826889>>chad is a moronLiterally yes.You inherently misunderstand the meme.Intelligence and doing what's smart is for virgins. Chad operates off of his own desires.
>>736826921Hybrids could heal. They were perfectly fine.
>>736827020>i operate off my desire to be a moronok sub 60iq Rwandan, happy for you
>>736826982That has less to do with some classes being dogshit and more to do with stuff actually being difficult.>In retail you can just pull 50 mobs in an area, nuke them down and move on like it's nothing.Mages are infamous for doing this all the time in Vanilla.
>>736826982Real talk, vanilla balance is much better outside of the dungeons and raids, and works much well in leveling, small group parties, and pvp. The problem was that even in vanilla, Tigole and Furor et al were pushing end game dungeons and raids as the main content, so it's not surprising that when more than half the classes are getting shafted in end game content people would be mad.
>>736827085Why do you think I'm calling myself a Chad just because I explained what Chad behavior is? How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast this morning?
To the RETranny in here, go play retoilet if you want Ret to be top damage while keeping their stupid utility
>>736826931Everyone that plays WoW or have played WoW at a point in their lives know that paladins are cattle and should be treated as such. It's the only way this relationship works.
>>736826645>These are fineNo they aren't they are boring and awful, pointless button clickers
>>736827089I don't really see any class being dogshit in Vanilla. They all seem to have uses and when I'm playing one class I can look at other classes and desire something from them that I don't have. I also only spend a few hours a week raiding and see it as a quick avenue to get some gear, nothing else.Mages can struggle doing that on pvp servers if they aren't careful. I've interrupted many a gnome thinking they can blizzard their way to 60 unabated.
>>736827032And warriors can tank, so we just need to nerf their dps, freeing up the primary dps classes to do the dps jobs and things are nicely balanced.
>>736826989the funny thing about paladin in vanilla is that your spec barely even matters for raids. you only really needed 20 points into holy to raid in vanilla, which left you enough to get the 31 point talent in prot or ret.
>>736826989Prot and ret are shit in vanilla, only holy is shit in tbcMoreover healing just has more space for balance. Because there isnt endless damage to heal more healing doesnt really matter, if you can survive the fight extra healing does nothing until you get to the point of dropping a healer entirely which is a bigger jump
>>736827108in raids everyone get pigeon holed into 1/10 of their class
>>736827148>Why do you think I'm calling myself a Chadi pay little heed to the muses of the delusional
>>736827108Vanilla balance in leveling and dungeons is just mages light-years ahead of anything else, its still dogshit
>>736827209Well except warriors.
>>736827180retoilets do not understand that raiding in vanilla is not 100% of the game. this is why when they see a spec not being viable for raids that think that means that it's unplayable
>>736827196Warrior is a primary DPS class thougheverbeit. Moreso since only 1-2 tanks are required for most group content.Hope that helps!
>>736827150Why is warrior allowed to have great utility but also deal damage while nobody else is?>inb4 demo shout, tclap, sunder armor, commanding shout and battle shout + ability to tank just by slapping on a shield isn't 'real' utilityThat was what you're gonna claim next, lil nig, we both know it.
You will don the dress and heal pink retranny.
>>736827312Raiding is the only thing that matters, thats why it has the best gear
>>736827108i think warlock was the only class that could use all their talent trees for every raid and be viable? maybe im wrong.
classic plus rogue should be able to make more gadgets/tools, vanilla just scratched the surface with lock picking, poisons, disarming traps.
>>736827354>Raiding is the only thing that mattersIn retail
>>736827354>i've never played this game but let me tell you what playing it is like
>>736827284ahh yes, those DPS prot warriors, oh wait, DPS warriors had to go fury. well at least they can go prot to tank, oh wait they were expected to go fury too.ok well orc warriors who had windfury pocket shaman in their ground could do an arms slam build i guess. so you had fury and slam and maybe 1 warrior in the raid could go prot if raid leader was feeling spicy?
>>736827392No in retail m+ has bis gearUnfortunately vanilla is just a very shallow game
>>736827359>viable?Based retard, MC can be cleared by lvl 55s in greens, everything is viable, you could likely clear naxx with only shamans if you wanted
>>736827180I'm the one saying they're dogshit and I actually do agree with you and that other guy in that the balance is best while leveling, where utility gets to shine more and the classes are more unique (rather than how homogenized they got with each new expansion). It's FUN being a rogue and being able to just skip certain quests since you can sneak past them. The problem is that Blizzard is retarded and focused way more on endgame and that being the thing to put all your attention on. So it's fucking pointless to have a class that is good at leveling content because that just means you have a smoother route to being useless dogshit at endgame. Pure vertical progression means that having an easy early game just means you get to your weak point easier. If it was more focused on leveling and non-raid content like a lot of earlier MMOs it wouldn't be an issue. Blizzard invited the problem, though.>>736827312I like how we can easily just dismiss any post that has "retoilet" in it because it shows that it's made by a retarded brownoid.
>mfw I was tank for the first ony kill on Whitemane as a bear tank with MCPSWe were truly the ELITE of the ELITE until warriors started actually collecting gear after a few weeks.
>>736827482>No in retail m+ has bis gearnobody cares
>>736827108Vanilla balance in like MC gear and below is basically perfect for all the "viable" specs. It's just the dogshit hybrids that need some changes.
>>736827487dont start a semantic argument with me you fucking retard. you know what i mean when i say "viable"
So funny that RETrannys want to have the best utility CDs, the best off-healing and on top of that want to be on top of the damage meters.This kind of thinking is why warrior is completely useless in retoilet when you can just play ret.
>>736827492>post something>someone responds with a statement that demonstrates that they've clearly never played the gameWhat am I supposed to infer from this?
>>736827585Yeah I know what you mean and what you mean isn't actually the definition of the word you present to others, thus I'm making fun of you for being dishonest, moron.
>>736827324If tanking doesn't count, why do warriors get exclusive tanking privileges?>thougheverbeitdumb brownie
>>736827589Both warrior and paladin are good in retailPaladin is dogshit in classicClearly classics balance failed unlike retail
>brown nigger keeps screaming bullshit into the voidLove to see it.
>>736827730Well you're technically correct.
Classic plus should probably change druid tanks to allow them to parry. If fucking wild beasts can do this then why not druid forms?
>>736827730>it's bad because i cant play ret in raidsYou are a retoilet if you think that raids are the only thing that matters.
>>736827793>Should classic+ design for balanced experience were classes are balanced in both leveling and end game content?>No how dare people suggest that.
>Pink sissys buck broken from donning the dress.Kek
>>736827949Again, if you think that raids are the only thing you do in endgame then you do not actually play the game.
Retail didn't happen because Blizard woke up one day and decided to ruin everything. It happened because they listened to player feedback and made things simpler until we received the pozzed Disneyesque abomination we all know and love today.Any theoretical Classic+ will go the same way. Even the entire idea was birthed by player feedback. YOU are the problem.
>>736827793Ret is also dogshit at leveling (not a mage) dungeons (not a mage) and pvp (not a rogue/lock)Balance in vanilla is objectively bad, raids just make it the most obvious and make you coping shitskins squirm the hardest
>>736828132>not being the best means it's shityep, it's definitely a retail player.
>>736828062>made things simplerRetail is 100x more complex than shitnilla though? Why do you boomers always try this nonsense
>>736828062You're in a thread with retail players who keep talking about how much they like retail.
>RETrannys want to have top damage.Okay now give warrior, charge in combat, mop secondwind, spell reflect and make wall, reckon and ret 5min cd + not share cds.Suddenly the RETrannys will scream that warrior for some reason can't have any of that.
I often wonder what WoW would have been like if they didn't naively let those retards Tigole and Kalgan in to fuck everything up. A world where you didn't have their retarded vision hardcore constricting the entire game world in a vice grip. Ahh, well. That lives on in a better timeline than we deserve.
>>736828172Being magnitudes behind the best means its shitCan ret kite out a whole instance of mobs like a mage? No? What about most? Half even?Nope ret is just shit
>>736828349Can warrior run around immune to everything? No? okay time for warrior to have bubble.
I wouldnt. Because "Classic but more" developed by the people that didn't make the game back in the day will simply be "Classic but retail" instead as they seem physically unable to not inject modern garbage instead of strictly more content.
>>736828429You mean modern fixes to the dogshit vanilla design
>>736791693>WoW Retail>WoW Classic>WoW Classic:Specific Expansion>WoW Classic: Season of Discovery>Now there's going to be WoW Classic +How many versions of the same game can you sell before people realize you're selling the same shit but on a time delay? When are we getting to WoW Shadowlands Classic?
>>736828419Warrior and paladin are just as good as each other in retail without both having bubble, so clearly its not necessaryRet does need crusader strike, way more damage, and access to AoE though along with nerfing warriors
>>736828276According to Tigole himself the actual developers of WoW left during or soon after vanilla WoW and let subpar devs like Tigole took over the lead positions. The game did turn into an endgame hell after that happened so he must be telling the truth.
>>736828465No, because that's not what the classic people want. Even if you were able to argue that those are objective fixes (and some are) to the vanilla design, that's the clunkyness the classic people want in the game. They don't want experimentation at all.
>>736828429Apparently everything is retoilet with the exception of ret keeping its utility while gaining top dps. Fat fuck ret main Aggred will once again fuck up balance and make ret the god spec and everyone will say how much they love tranny+
my favorite way to level paly is holy/prot tanking everything up to around scholo when it becomes unviable
>>736828532>Ret and warrior do same damage but ret have 5x the utility of warrior.>Wonder what always gets picked for groups?Stop being a little disingenuous rat, you know as well as me that in retoilet warrior gets passed over a lot of other specs because of its non-existent utility especially when it brings subpar damage to the table.
>like 95% of people want dual spec in vanillahuge mistake, dual spec ended wow as an rpg
>>736791693This something I've thought about a lot.When it comes to class balance obviously things need changed, hybrid tax is a neat idea that makes sense on paper but is dog shit in practice especially when warriors when warriors are the best DPS AND tank. Truth is warriors need a nerf, they are so strong they can tank without a shield. Every other class needs a buff except rogue who could also receive a nerf(or melee classes be brought down to spellcasters level or vice versa).Content wise I like what we got in SoD but I dont like low level raids. The new raids should be bumped up to lv.60. I liked incursions as a rep grind but it fucked up leveling so I would move it to 60 aswell. Leveling in classic is fun but there are some dead zones with very little quests where you either have to run all one end of the world to the other over and over again doing 5 quests per zone or dungeon spam until you hit 40 so I think we just need more quests lol.As for new raids I have to agree with the people that ask for horizontal progression what about raids that need different resistance gear. Its an idea that. Should at least be tried.
>>736828746So why should paladins have everything in classic+ and warriors shouldn't? If you were a class designer you would be shot in the street.
>>736828707ok, let me rephrase it so that your goalpost moving is relevant to anything I said>No, because that's not what the classic shitskins want. Even if you were able to argue that those are objective fixes (and some are) to the vanilla design, that's the clunkyness the classic shitskins want in the game. They don't want experimentation at all.There you go.
>>736828746No warrior does not get passed over
>>736828801mages dominated classic anyway, warriors are a meme
>>736828819Warriors deserve all the suffering they get.
>>736828845And theres no reason for blizzard to listen to shitskins instead of try to attract new/returning players by fixing the vanilla fuck ups
>>736828959>t.
>>736828534>>736828276super unpopular thing to bring up and you always have that 1 always online guy that begs to differ but the truth about vanilla wow was that like 90% of people didnt actually like raiding back then, it was a forced meta that people put up with because it gave the best gear. less than 10% of people completed vanilla raids back in the day and it wasnt because they were impossibly hard or the playerbase didnt know how to play, it was becuase people didnt care enough or enjoy raiding enough to do it for 4-5 hours a week every week for months on end. Most people just wanted some gear to PvP with and then never step foot in a raid again. Player retention for raids was so bad that DKP was seen as the absolute best loot system you could possibly have because it was best at encouraging people to show up for raids.
>>736828959>Kaboom>Splat>AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHThis is you
>>736819116That's sad.
>>736829038>or the playerbase didnt know how to playBoomer retards spent 2 decades insisting vanilla was super hard, its clearly because they were shit
>>736819116About time, parasites get what's coming to them
>>736828972>theres no reason for blizzard to listen to the shitskins that play their dated gamemode that no one else asked for because they have retail for thatYou seem awfully invested in this. Do you want to pick up the shitskin gamemode or something?
>>736828027And again, why do you think it's okay for such a major area of the game to be unbalanced? While we are at it, same with mages and 5 mans.
>>736829038>it wasnt because they were impossibly hard or the playerbase didnt know how to playnot true, the average player was fucking garbage. keyboard turners, people who had no idea what gear to use, not using consumes/world buffs, on top of that entire raids held back by tanks who had no idea what they're doing because 99% of tanks prioritized mitigation over threat
>>736829128They didn't get everything there was to know about the game from youtube videos, it was a better time.
>>736829193>healer that can't run out of mana>this is supposedly bad
>>736829128Look, vanilla isn't as hard as people remember, but when you don't have patch 1.12 and you're playing on dial up modem things are a bit different.
>>736829038Yea, everyone I knew was a pvpfag, they watched vurtne videos and creamed their pants. That's what WoW has always been about, not this weird poopsocking 'hardcore' raiding shit. What you're saying isn't weird at all.
>>736829263>raids are actually secretly balanced because Paladins can heal.Retard.>>736829367Well that's what happens when every expansion pushes more and more end game dungeon and raid content.
>>736829128Most the reason that vanilla raids were perceived as hard was because the internet back then was very slow. There was a ton of input lag, not everything rendered, the tank would DC, etc... thaddius had a sound clip that would crash the server so you couldn't even get near him lol
The same pinkoid RETrannys that want ret to do warrior damage would cry if blizzard also would give warrior ret levels of utility.
>>736829494>this class is really good at raids but it doesn't countWhy not? just respec.
>>736827793>You are a retoilet if you think that raids are the only thing that matters.This doesn't even make sense.Retoilet is what made raids sort of irrelevant. Anyone playing it currently is more than likely engaging with M+ as 'content' rather than raids. If anyone is going to scoff at the idea of raiding as the only thing that matters is retoilets.
>>736829539Look at any video of people playing back then, people were bad at the game.
>>736829720>>736829539for anyone who doesn't believe me:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYkqw6BjPcwThis was considered one of the best guilds in the world. This priest is keyboard turning, has no keybinds beyond the default, and doesn't even downrank. No consumes either beyond a few mana potions.
>>736829624>Be hybrid>Have to pay a gold tax along with the hybrid tax>Also druids are still shit in raidslmao.
>>736829834ok then add dualspec so you can respec for free :)
>>736829924Honestly a huge improvement. Still not sure why Warriors are allowed to be not just viable for 2/3 roles, but the best at those two though. Hardly screams balanced.
>>736830028>BalancedRetoilet is that way pink tranny.
>>736830253>Brownoid has no argument
>>736829830Why would he downrank? At no point he needs to, you can clearly see his mana pool in the video. Well, "clearly".
>>736795464WHY AARE YOU ALWAYS POSTING THIS IMAGE
>>736830402Just a troon posting their troonsona
>>736796697Alas what? You can play it.
>>736791693Just finish the shit they planned for the original game but had to cut. Azshara, hyjal etc. they sort of are doing some of that now but it doesn't have the cavalier sort of feel to it. The real vanilla experience was sort of janky and unpolished with broken shit and tricks everywhere but that is sort of what made it fun. Glitching out the Booty Bay guards and using a macro to weapon swap your dagger to a Krol Blade as a rogue and one shot or otherwise effortlessly dispatch anyone not a warrior. The fact not everyone knew that that was a thing or what was worth devoting effort to or not with world pvp and people just duking it out in groups because they're pissed at getting ganked and not just ignoring each other to farm or power level soulessly.The magic of vanilla was when we didn't know what we were doing really and the devs also were desperately trying to fix and work on shit and the game still felt like a serious work in progress when people were getting MC gear before the intended models dropped, and when they did it was just jaw dropping inspiring seeing the tier armor for the first time which seemed impossibly strong because it omtotally was vs anything attainable in 5 mans or ubrs and there weren't that many welfare epics and crafted stuff could be kinda nice but still really inferior. And classic+ won't bring that back. Nothing will short of a time machine.
>>736829830>This priest is keyboard turningYou can see him strafing and moving the camera normally within the first 10 seconds in the video. What are you smoking?
