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>>736854389
Also were humans hollow in their natural state or not?

We know that regular humans don't respawn on death. That is solely because of the darksign.

>>736854389
It's symbolic. You wouldn't get it.

>>736854389
Looks like anus w magma cum

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>Gwyn is le bad
The pygmies WANTED to get cucked. They WANTED to suck on Gwyn's big and mighty fire cock just to get a sip of his precious hot cum.

>>736853894
She's not guiding you to any conclusion, she is withholding information which would guide you to one. That is still manipulating your understanding of the situation, it is still lying by omission. What you keep skirting around where she implies something to push you towards a specific incorrect conclusion instead is not the only way to lie.

the cycles of Fire and Dark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch
Dark is entropy and Gwyn is a hero. He sacrificed himself for you.

>>736855224
>everything is le cycle

There has NEVER been a cycle.
>Age of Ancients
>Age of Fire
>prolonged Age of Fire
>still Age of Fire
>weak as fuck but Age of Fire
>never letting go of the Age of Fire
>fuck the dark all my homies do the Age of Fire
and then DS3 ends.

0 fucking cycles

>>736855192
No, she isn't. She is factually stating the events that happened, and nothing more. There's no lie and there's no misdirection.

>>736855224
>Gwyn is a hero
IN THIS HOUSE GWYN IS A HERO HE KILLED THE EVERLASTING HEROES IS WHAT HE DID

>>736855557
>>No, she isn't. She is factually stating the events that happened, and nothing more.
she isnt, shes giving a very specific perspective for a specific faction. As the story progresses, it does a 180 immediately. Not to mention it avoids everything in between the death of dragons and immediately goes to saying 'oh humans have a darksign btw'. Humanitys influence in history is COMPLETELY ABSENT in her version of the story. Rewatch the video and ask 'what does this have to do with humans' for each scene.
The origin myth of the setting is important for the atmosphere and the 'deeper layer' of DaS story telling, but not for the main plot which she avoids saying anything on.

>>736855828
No, she isn't, she's giving a completely neutral introduction to the world, summarizing a whole history very quickly in an overview.
>180 immediately
No, it doesn't.
>it avoids everything inbetween
Yeah, because it's a concise intro and not a movie.
>Humanity's influence in history is completely absent
Because the world was crafted predominantly by other beings and the nature of the dark soul and men's true being is forgotten to the larger world. Most inhabitants of the world do not even know about the Dark Soul.
>What does this have to do with humans for each scene
What the fuck are you even talking about? Completely schizo at this point.

>>736856042
Bro the whole intro is propaganda to guilt trip humans to be good sacrificial cattle because thats what Gwyns religion wants. Humans are denigrated to subhuman citizenry with no feats, and the nature of the Dark Sign, made by Gwyn, is not known to them.

The intro is LITERALLY spoken from the perspective of Gwyns indoctrination. In a manner that's very different from Demons Souls, Blooborne or Elden Ring.

>>736854469
Everything except dragons was hollow in the primordial world. So even Gwyn's natural original state is that of a hollow.

>>736856134
Bro the whole intro isn't propaganda and the intro doesn't steer you into doing anything, it outlines the world and the game explores it in further detail. None of it is contradictory.

All you have is "it's this because I say so" but you've not supported a single thing, you say things in it are lies or wrong yet they are not lies nor are they wrong. You're delusional.

>>736856285
>>Bro the whole intro isn't propaganda and the intro doesn't steer you into doing anything, it outlines the world and the game explores it in further detail. None of it is contradictory.
huh? The chosen undead is literally steered into ringing the bells so he can fulfil a fake prophecy made by Gwyn to collect sacrifices

>>736856157
Source?

>>736856328
Not by the narrator, you retard. The setting does that to him. The setting the narrator explains. That undead are rounded up in this land and sealed there until the end of time. She explains there is a prophecy in the land, not that it is right.

>>736856517
The narrator is spouting what the chosen undead (the player at the start) is meant to believe to be invested in the setting/plot/prophecy
And that story is the Gwyn censored version of history, so is the Darksign subplot, as the Darksign stuff was happening before the Chosen Undead left the Asylum.
The narrator is 'lying' because the PC is not aware of every item description at the start of the game.

>>736856451
Time and the perception of it are fabrications of fire, so it stands to reason that consciousness that can only process linear time are a fabrication of fire as well.

Dark Souls 3 is so gay

>>736856517
Gwyn controls the worlds religion and history in a direct manner
we know he is into censorship, like hiding info on his firstborn
we know he is into lying, like with the chosen undead prophecy

>>736856597
The narrator doesn't say anything about the details of the prophecy, the goal, or anything, merely that it exists and people believe in it. The details of the prophecy are given in game, not by the narrator, and only NPCs in game give you any guidance on the prophecy or your supposed quest.

>>736856630
>Time and the perception of it are fabrications of fire
Source?

I only remember that Light = Time from some Oolacine whore.

>>736856710
That's great but the narrator isn't saying any lies.

>>736856757
Time and space are both controlled by the fire. There are many sources, but DS3's convergence of the lands and the false "present" of the ringed city are explicit showcases of both these things being true.

>>736856757
Time is convoluted et cetera. The age of ancients was an eternal “now,” the age of for has past and present, and as the fire fades those lines are blurring again.

>>736856975
Fire*

>>736856873
>>736856975
Good answers, thanks lads.

Though I thought the stopping of time in the ringed city was because of Filianore's weird egg thing. Dunno how that works exactly but somehow it did.

>>736856787
The nature of the story she says implies metaphysical certainty to build upon superstitious notions of how the setting of Dark Souls works, which Gwyn needs to manipulate people for his own goals. Goals which do not truly have anything to do with metaphysically saving the world. If you remove the notion of certainty from the intro, then the impetus Gwyn uses to justify his version of the story ends up false. With that knowledge, you can take a non literal approach to reading the nature of the primordial world and notice certain things, like how Everlasting Dragons of an unchanging World Shrouded by Fog, only saved by Disparity from Fire were never true statements, only approximations as to further Gwyns goal. Other contradictions include 'killing Nito, first of the dead' who was not actually dead but just in a transfigured form that resembled death etc, or the nature of the pygmy that was actively 'suppressed' rather than easily forgotten.

The whole thing revolves around the point that 'a true nature' exists, and Gwyn is in defiance of it, destroying the world and fabricating history just so he can hope to control all of it in spite, and everything dangerous you see in the setting fighting back is a consequence of Gwyn.

Vaati is literally Gwyns Goebbles

>>736857104
It was stopped by it yes, or more accurately it was basically overwriting reality with a "timeless eternal present" because in the good old days they learned how to do crazy shit with the power of the flame.

you play as the furtive pygmy.

>>736857162
No, the world is just magic and they're true statements, just like everything in the entire world is dictated by crazy magic bullshit.

"Yeah I concede that this is a setting where a giant skeletons animate and dragons breath fire and the world has strong enough magic to create entire illusions which dupe entire cities into thinking it's daylight outside and that we the character can personally travel through time thanks to timeywimey fuckywucky magics, but the idea that the intro cinematic saying a fire just appeared and made everything that wasn't a dragon? Ummmmm sweaty, that's too crazy!"

You can spew your weirdo headcanon all you want but it's extremely baseless and ignoring the truth, that the narrator has never lied and the world is completely, utterly magical and not "logical."

>>736857468
? its part of the games story and cannon that Gwyn is a liar

>>736857316
Manus is the furtive Pygmy

>>736857634
andre is the furtive pygmy

>>736857619
And Gwyn isn't the narrator, try and keep up you idiot.

>>736857619
He doesn’t have the power to warp the omniscient narrators voice, or create an intro cinematic of things that never occurred. Anons correct she never lies.

Dark get thee gone. Gwyn is my lord and savior.

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>>736857720
It's actually Frampt and Kaathe, and you fell for their tricks.

>>736857858
What does the hot and creamy fire cum taste like?

I'm not a FAGGOT so I wouldn't know

>>736857162
Sounds reasonable to me.

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>>736857968
It tastes like over-ambition and regret

>>736857775
>omniscient narrators
The narrator isn't omniscient. She doesn't know what existed before Everlasting Dragons, or remember the furtive pygmy (because this part of the story is also censored by Gwyns men, as per Artorias of the Abyss DLC) or other stuff
Also Neto isnt really the first of the dead lol

>>736858374
There was nothing before the dragons. The dragons and rocks and trees were all there was. We see it, she tells us. She is omniscient and tells us indisputable facts about the world, facts never contradicted.

Nito is the first of the dead. There is literally no ambiguity in this.

>>736858374
>Also Neto isnt really the first of the dead lol
huh?

>>736858716
brother can't spell the name of a character but he can tell you all the bullshit he's made up based on nothing that contradicts established fact

>>736858374
> She doesn't know what existed before Everlasting Dragons, or remember the furtive pygmy

Yeah she does because she’s not a character, she’s the narrator. And *Nito* is what they say he is because there’s absolutely no reason to not believe what every single source calls him without contradiction.

>>736858790


At some point Nito would die, but, thanks to the power of his soul, was able to come back to life with necromancy, becoming a living mass of conjoined skeletons, earning the title "first of the dead"[2] ("dead" meant as a new species of skeletal creatures, not the first deceased being).

>>736858991
You could argue that Nito was the first one to actually die after disparity and life and death were a thing.

>>736858991
His Japanese name is "The First One Who Died."
He is the first being to ever die, period.

>>736858991
The walking skeletons aren’t alive just because they’re animate and containing of a soul. They are, by the definitions of the world, dead. And nito is their progenitor.

>>736858971
But her instrument in the context of the game is knowledge the PC would know at that point
and the PC would only know the settings 'fabricated rewritten story'
Ergo the narrator is lying as she's representing religious ignorance
>>736859080
Haka-ō Nito, lit. 'Tomb King Nito'), also known as Nito, The First of the Dead (最初の死者ニト, Saisho no Shisha Nito, lit. 'Nito, First of the Dead')

>no mention of tranny souls 2
>india is asleep right now
HOLY SHIT I'M STARTING TO NOTICE

>>736859068
>>736859080
>>736859137
Nope, explicitly stated Neato is first of the UNdead, aka zombies, skeletons etc, not the first nigga who died. Neato was always the first Necromancer/Lich. There's a reason the DaS setting has no Heaven or Hell.

>>736859142
"最初の死者"
Translate it.

>>736859142
> But her instrument in the context of the game is knowledge the PC would know at that point
You’re saying this like it’s fact but it’s not. The intro cinematic is not subjective. It’s creation myth. It’s for the player to understand the fundamental building blocks of this fictional world.

>>736859197
No, he is very explicitly the first being to die and there is no ambiguity in it.

>>736859293
>The intro cinematic is not subjective
It literally talks about the pygmy as forgotten when that is rewriting history even pre DaS3 lore

>>736859349
It's not rewriting history, it's an accurate account of their state. The pygmy lord and the dark soul are forgotten. Maybe you didn't notice but almost no one you talk to in the game knows about this shit.

>>736859202
最初 (さいしょ / saisho) "the first," "beginning," "initial"

の (no) possessive particle, equivalent to "of" in English

死者 (ししゃ / shisha) "dead person"


THE FIRST OF THE DEAD
not The First One Who Died, period
Of the Dead is implying the undead here, of which Neato is the first (Lich)

>>736859413
>The pygmy lord and the dark soul are forgotten. Maybe you didn't notice but almost no one you talk to in the game knows about this shit.
Anon... they were literally the cause of a mass genocide just a short while ago...
they're not forgotten... they're being censored and erased from history... so humans don't realize their true origin and potential...
How can you not see you're literally affirming what I said

>>736859349
>It literally talks about the pygmy as forgotten
nothing in DS1 contradicts that, and nothing they say about Gwyn or the dragons is ever shown false over 3 games.

>>736859421
>implying undead

It’s funny that the literal translation you just produced proves you wrong so you just have to lie at the end there to save it

>>736859524
Because anon...
get this...
the term for "undead" in the Dark Souls setting (as opposed to DnD, Warcraft) refers to...
(You), the player character. Ergo chosen undead
'The Dead' is used in DaS to refer to walking skeletons, liches, bone monsters etc

>>736859421
"First of the dead people"
"yeah this means first of the undead"
No, it doesn't.

>>736859464
>they're not forgotten
>just no one remembers them
They're forgotten retard. People at large do not know the truth of the dark soul. That the world has forgotten the furtive pygmy is a true statement, fucking hell.

>>736859636
Would you refer to Osama Bin Laden or Hitler as 'one of the dead people' or just 'is dead'
Nito was never killed, he acquired the Lord Soul of the 'Death' Lord or w/e, making him a Lich. But he never had his living form get shanked.

>>736859727
>and the victims of Holdomor... so easily forgotten

>>736859732
They're dead people.
>Nito was never killed
We don't know that. Also being killed isn't relevant. He was the first to DIE. You can die without being killed. Acquisition of the lord soul is also completely irrelevant, he claimed it after death and rising back up as a skeleton. We see this. He did not lichify himself, he was already a skeleton man when he claimed the soul.

>>736859732
This autistic hair splitting is not only meaningless in regards to Nitos place in the creation myth, but does nothing to prove your overarching point that the intro cinematic at any point lies to us.

>>736859840
sure, plenty of people have forgotten it. It's pretty easily forgotten by most people in the world really, since I doubt a sizable portion of people on Earth even really learn about it.

>>736859849
We do, because we know that the 'identities' of the archetypes the Lords posses was taken from the Lord Soul
It was not something they made themselves. Nito pulled the 'Gravelord Nito' powers from the Lord Soul, the Gravelord Nito powers did not form around Nito dying just because Nito possessed a Lord Soul. We know this because the fire is what brought disparity and souls with it, and the Souls of Lords ARE the identities. Before having souls, "they' (including NIto) had no Soul.

Do note that no one who 'dies' in the setting becomes a Skeleton or Lich or w/e unless they are associated somehow with the 'death element'. Instead they either disappear or go hollow.

Gwyn is the good guy of Dark Souls.

>>736854389
It's a supernatural disease that was created to brand those afflicted with the undead curse but has taken on a life of it's own because of humanity's innate darkness.

>>736860074
Irrelevant. The primordial force that kills in this universe is of the same stuff that creates animate skeletons, and Nito is that force’s avatar. He was also the first to be exposed to it when recovering it form the flame, so yes, he is also the first being who ever died.

>>736859190
>enters a thread about ds1
>no touhous are being posted
WOOOOOOAH

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

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>>736860098
People give him a lot of shit, but I would rather live in a random point of his or his successors' age of fire as a normal person than live in an age of dark as a fucking hollow. I don't care if that's the natural state of man, that sounds like ass

>>736860074
>We do, because we know that the 'identities' of the archetypes the Lords posses was taken from the Lord Soul
You repeat this multiple times in this thread but you have 0 proof

>>736855351
The cycle is the resurgence of flame ushering in a new power structure that mirrors the previous kingdom. As the fire fades everything from every time starts collapsing into itself. Dark Souls 3 makes that blatantly obvious and you an utterly blind retard to deny the cycle.

>>736860074
>We do
No we don't.
>Nito pulled the powers from the Lord Soul
No he didn't, because he existed to claim it in his skeletal form. He rose in that form and claimed the soul. The lord souls are sources of power, they do not mold those who claim them but instead are molded by them, which is why his power was... death. Because it's what he is.

>>736860512
Do you know what a Soul is in any system or philosophy? Why Hollowing is associated with losing mind, life and identity?
Its why the original state of life is
>Hollows
then they got Souls, and became 'people'
and after the fire started going out, everyone started hollowing again, which is regularly associated with losing ones mind, identity, coalescing into ineffable blobs etc
The Soul of Cinder is an amalgamation of drained souls used to kindle it
Souls are equated with the Sun/Ego/Singletons and Fire
etc
like just google Soul

>>736860518
The only cycle was chosen undeads getting fooled and burning themselves in the first flame to prolong the age of fire.

>Fire blooming
>Fire fading
>Gwyn burns himself
>Fire blooming
>Fire fading
>Chosen undead burns himself
>Fire blooming
>Fire fading
>Chosen undead burns himself
>etc

That's literally the only cycle that happens in this game.

>>736860525
That's not what happens in the intro
The intro isn't them claiming their souls for the first time
If they were, why was Nito already a superpowered Skeleton, why was the Witch of Izalith already a baby making machine, why was Gwyn sorrounded by his knights
The Souls are what made them Lords
ergo
those scenes happened after they already claimed the Lord souls

>>736860643
hollow is not the natural state of existence. hollows didn't exist before the fire. we don't know the ratio, but an enormous amount of people in the world of every dark souls are not humans nor have anything to do with hollowing.

>>736860763
>hollows didn't exist before the fire
The furtive Pygmy looks 1:1 looks like a torch hollow and intentionally so
>hollow is not the natural state of existence
I don’t acknowledge DS3 retcons when discussing DS1 lore

>>736860763
>>hollow is not the natural state of existence. hollows didn't exist before the fire. we don't know the ratio, but an enormous amount of people in the world of every dark souls are not humans nor have anything to do with hollowing.
When 'they came and found the souls of Lords within the flame'
'they' are shown with the hollow model
also, the darksign is what makes the player get 'drained' of souls. That's what makes them go hollow at all. Its why you lose souls on death, and why using the Darksign kills you and TPs you to your bonfire.
similar to the Titans straining Ouranos
before that, the living were basically nothing, possibly to the point where they didn't even acknowledge themselves as 'subjects' but rather in some psycho-primitivist sense only lived as 'animals' ergo why they assume they didn't exist
similar to how Jews assume that humanitys existence can only be traced back 4000 years.

>>736860749
>Why was Nito already a superpowered Skeleton
He's just a giant skeleton and he picks up the flame the very first shot we see of him.
>Why did the Witch have daughters?
Because there is time between "the fire appeared and things started existing" and "these dudes got the lord souls."
You know, like time for something to live and die in the first place to make something dead. Or for Gwyn to have a host of knights.

These scenes did not happen after they claimed the souls.

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>>736859849

>>736860893
You don't need DS3, because even in DS1 it's not true that hollowing is the "true" state of things.
>>736860910
And non-hollowed NPCs use the hollowed model too, because hollowing isn't just appearance.
>being drained of souls is what makes you go hollow.
No.

>>736860942
>>Because there is time between "the fire appeared and things started existing" and "these dudes got the lord souls."
Then what souls did they have before they got the Souls of Lords Bluerays? Why did it take them so long to find the Souls of Lords when the fire was just a single fire etc.

The whole point of the statement 'they found Souls of Lords' is that THAT is what brought them from unga cavemen into this hyper-fantastical Renaissance Europe

The Souls are explicitly, NOT just 'batteries', they are in fact 'identities' and 'metamemories' and 'archetypes'. That's one of the aspects of 'disparity' of fire, personhood, difference between (You) and me etc.

>>736860942
they found the souls of lords within the flame
as in the first flame
together
the intro shows them wielding the souls of lords, at different places and times, far away from the first flame.
ESPECIALLY GWYN
Why did you gloss over Gwyn, whose intro cinematic does NOT show him in a state that can in any way shape or form be misinterpreted as him finding a Lord Soul for the first time.

>>736860763
>hollow is not the natural state of existence
Why do Gwyn and Nameless King look hollow as fuck when you fight them?
They aren't even "human".

>>736861130
>Then what souls did they have before
They had their own souls, precisely the same as the Four Kings had souls before they were bequeathed a fragment of a greater soul which gave them greater power.
The lord souls are not identities themselves. The fire gave everyone identities and differences from the onset.

>>736861130
Correct. Souls are able to retain memory, and can be transposed into weapons because they’re the anima. There’s nothing left in a hollow when the soul is extracted, meaning there was nothing in Nito to “flavor” his soul, it was always like that before finding its host.

>>736861232
Because the physical appearance of hollowing is the exact same thing that simply happens to anyone who grows fucking ancient, it's being emaciated and aged, it's not like it's some utterly unique appearance.

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>people dont notice that Souls in the setting literally ARE fire
>every time a Boss is shown holding a Lord Soul in the cinematic, they are holding a Flame
>like straight up, there is no single depiction of the Lord Souls as anything BUT fire

>you meet Kaathe in a black void
>you meet Manus in a black void
wow, the Dark looks so damn interesting man, I can't way to expediate the Age of Dark dudes!

>>736861375
the game makes it very explicit that Dark = scary unknown gentle potential
if it told you what it was, it'd
>1 - not be something unknown
>2 - not be something foreign to the world as it'd already be present in it

>>736861206
Gwyn's appearance in the intro is no different than any of the others. You presume because he has silver knights around him he must have had his power. I am directly saying otherwise. No one needs the lord souls to do this shit. You don't need them to raise an army or work metal or have a following. You don't even need them to do magic. They enable far greater things.

>>736861445
yeah, nothingness is sure gentle

>>736861336
>Because the physical appearance of hollowing is the exact same thing that simply happens to anyone who grows fucking ancient, it's being emaciated and aged, it's not like it's some utterly unique appearance.
Gwyndolin is probably around the same age as Gwyn and he still looks as fresh as ever,

Gwynevere is a bit older than Gwyndolin and still exists around the time of Dark Souls 3. You don't meet her in person, but there are item descriptions implying she is still actively doing stuff.

So no. Old = looking hollow is not true at all.

>>736861368
The fuck?
Was the part with the furtive pygmy always in first person POV?

>>736861525
>Gwyndolin is probably around the same as his dad
well obviously fucking not but also no, he doesn't look very great, he is sickly frail and weak and and has snakes for legs and is a quarter dragon, retard.

>>736854630
godhood propaganda

>>736861525
If you’re genuinely asking and willing to accept the truth it’s because Gwyndolin needed to be recognizable as a memberberry, and when they drew nameless king thy made him a mummy because it looked cool.

>>736861336
not true
Nito does not look hollow
far from it
>>736861449
That's completely glossing over the rest of the discussion and the plot of DaS1. Also you mentioned that in the intro, when the 4 Lords are named, it was the first time they got the Lord Soul which is false, as the moment in which it happens is when Gwyn is leading an army/preparing for war.
>>736861582
Its (Me), the player

>>736861583
We're talking about a time frame of thousands of years here. So Gwyn being like 50 years older than Gwyndolin doesn't mean shit.
Also Gwyndolins snake stuff has different reasons for being there. That's nothing to do with aging.

>>736861672
>nito doesn't look hollow
what do you think is in that skull? empty as shit dude

>>736861672
>as the moment in which it happens is when Gwyn is leading an army/preparing for war.
The moment it happens is him merely surrounded by silver knights. There is a cut before the war starts. Of course, it's explicitly said that it was due to the strength of the powers they found that they were then able to challenge the dragons, not "build castles and have knights and civilizations."

What lore youtubers are worth watching besides Hawkshaw?

>>736861801
>they were then able to challenge the dragons
I mean, the whole shtick of the Silver/Black Knights and Dragonslayers is that they killed Dragons, thanks to their training and gear, just like with Kalameet in the DLC. This was thanks to the Fire giving them a technological revolution, not just the Lord Souls giving Gwyn enough FTH to meet the Lightning Bolt minimum requirements

>>736861707
>Gwyndolin's snake stuff has different reasons for being there
No it doesn't. He is part dragon.
Gwyndolin sits around with a unique ancestry all his own and does nothing himself. We never see Gwynevere, yet you want to invoke her appearance thousands of years later that we don't see and is a very open ended question in the first place. Compare that to someone who lit himself on fire and is standing around forever in a shithole and someone else who has been fighting for such a long period of time it's unfathomable.

>>736861874
If Vaati had balls he'd be getting his lore from this thread and the previous one
>>736861923
Gwyn is specifically hollow, not old by the end of the game. Gwyn is missing his eye sockets and has the same skin color as hollows at that point.

>>736855224
Gwyn is... le Trump

>>736861874
Hawkshaw’s too baselessly confident in his schizo theories. It’s good as videos but bad as a source of actual information.

I like tarnished archeologist. He reaches a lot as well but he’s also documenting shit tons of evidence as he goes.

>>736861898
No, they're pretty consistent with Lightning being Gwyn's Lord Soul's major contribution to his forces and power against the dragons. It's said over and over again and it's shown in the intro. It wasn't the might to just be able to kill a dragon, it was the might to challenge ALL of the dragons and defeat them.

>>736861984
>Gwyn is specifically hollow
No, he's not, and he's never once said to be.

>>736861984
Vaati's earlier dark Souls videos are so bad, he gets almost nothing right.

>>736862032
Hawkshaw will seriously go down the most insane tangents because he realized a word could just maybe mean something different if he squinted and divorced it from context
He has some fun stuff here and there but holy shit he can get schizo

>>736862034
Yes but he couldn't have done it without a trained Army, and the DLC showed, clearly, that most of his Dragonslayers cannot wield lightning (neither the Giant, nor Artorias, nor the 4th small one)
But then how come the entirety of his army is also casting Lightning Bolts after him? FTH is tied to lightning, ergo belief in a centralized Authority (like a really large Fire that absorbs all other Fire?) to derive its power from it.

>>736862092
They don’t have to say it you can use your eyes and compare it to the thing we’ve been looking at all game.

It’s a very obviously intentional decision to draw similarities between the god of this world and the dregs he’s been oppressing.

>>736856975
>>736856873
he asked for source as in like an item description that supports what you're saying and you just kept pulling more shit out of your asses. You're not talking about lore anymore, you're talking about your personal fanfiction.

>>736862092
Because no one knows what Gwyn is doing behind the scenes until you come and kill him and PLIN PLIN PLON starts playing
because its a tragedy, the realization that the prophecy and the whole mythos around it Gwyn built up was not only an illusion but one that failed
Thats why Gwyn attacks you when you enter his arena, because he is feral. Not because the PC entered with the intent to kill.

>>736862172
He literally taught lightning to his followers. What are you asking? We have the explanation you're saying isn't there and avoiding. He had followers already, he shared some of his power with them to take on the dragons.
And you know, lots of Silver Knights still invoking lightning in Dark Souls 3 - the real Silver Knights and not Gwyndolin's illusions.

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>>736861368
Souls being fire has been a thing since Latin and Greek. It's also a pretty accurate description since it relates to a persons energy, rather than his or her corporeal vessel.

>>736861582
There's a first and third person perspective, it's the only one with a first person perspective though.

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>>736862092
>>736862270
>>736862189
Also, Gwyn starts out as the Lord of Sunlight
and ends as the Lord of Cinder

Cinder comes from the Old English word sinder, meaning "dross" or "slag," and is related to the Proto-Germanic sendra-, which also means "slag." The term evolved under the influence of the French word cendre, meaning "ashes," which is derived from the Latin cinerem (ashes) and Greek konis (dust).

Very similar to what this implies for the end of DaS3

>>736862189
It is very intentional to draw a comparison, but that does not mean they are one in the same. Behold the fate of even great lord Gwyn, now a burnt husk resembling even a hollow.

>>736862376
then why is he the Lord of Cinder and not Lord of Sunlight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bqLGebDRIY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIeqxGaZnFo

They didnt know there was going to be a dark souls 3 when they made dark souls 1

If your lore discussion doesnt treat these sequels as retcons then youre just wasting time

>>736862361
Gwyn is only a portion of the Lord of Cinder.
>>736862425
Because the Lord of Cinder is an amalgam of fire linkers and not Gwyn.

>>736862376
Ockham’s razor, anon. Don’t be an asshole.

>>736862361
And if you treat names as having meaning but only speak in english terms you're also just wasting time

>>736862460
that's cool but did you know you can have ideas for a project that didn't end up in it but end up in the sequel you didn't plan

>>736862468
>>736862460

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>>736862468
nigga youre talking about the Soul of Cinder in 3

>>736862270
>Because no one knows what Gwyn is doing behind the scenes until you come and kill him and PLIN PLIN PLON starts playing
>because its a tragedy,
this

>>736862520
I want you to think carefully on the matter

>>736862478
Occam's. I'm not. He isn't a hollow. He is supposed to have a similarity to it, because what he's done has left him in a similar state, but it is specifically not the process of hollowing and it is not his natural state.

>>736854389
>How does he do it?
the entire human race is cursed. they're tied to the flame. if it fades, the sign appears and they start going hollow. the existance of the undead asylum implies that it doesn't appear on everyone at the same time, and that the "sick" are carried off, away from the "healthy". but if given time, surely everyone would get it and go hollow

>>736862537
Oh yeah my bad. He's the Lord of Cinder because he's what's left after linking the fire. He burnt himself out. He is a cinder.

>>736862672
Why did that take multiple posts jesus tap dancing christ

>>736862582
right back at you anon
one day you too might create something and realize a sequel having new information doesn't mean it was never intended

>>736862376
It literally doesn’t work on a storytelling level if he’s only LIKE a hollow. The point of the comparison at all is that he couldn’t beat entropy. that for all his hype, he met the same fate that awaits everyone else.

>>736862734
Im retired in my 20s and own my own llc

>>736862686
Because Soul of Cinder and Lord of Cinder are extremely close, what can I say
>>736862762
It literally does work on a storytelling level, you just have a headcanon you're fond of.

>>736862762
Dark isnt entropy its the unknown, the reason Gwyn was averse to it is because light and fire is what saved him from the Traumatic life under the terror of the Dragons, and after defeating them and hoping for eternal peace and stability, he is met with a much greater threat, one that he is worried would usurp him from the unknown

As life came from the first Dark of Disparity, usurping the logic of the world at the time

So too would some greater life be born in the new dark, and would usurp Gwyn as he had once usurped Dragons

>>736861874
Tarnished Archaeologist is good.

>>736862801
that's cool, I'm 30000 years old and own my own lord soul fragment. bout to go kidnap more maidens.

>>736854389
He cursed the Dark Soul itself, and because every human has a portion of it in themselves, they're all cursed.

>>736854389

No idea, but somehow the Witches of Izalith created a whole different breed of beings by mixing humanity with lord souls, creating Chaos and Demons.
Gwyn may have done a variation of this, instead of Merging with humanity, he trapped it in the light of his flame. Binding humanities fate to the age of fire

>trying to make sense of fromshit lore
Even chatgpt could come up with more interesting lore than fromshitware
furthermore, the lore in any of the games does not even matter one bit

>>736863002
the post you just wrote doesn't matter one bit but I still read it and you still posted it
man life is crazy

>>736862889
That doesn’t contradict my point. Entropy in DS1 is the fading of the fire and the inevitability of whatever comes next.

>>736863002
Name 1 game with better lore than From that isnt TES, New Vegas or VTMB

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>>736854389

>>736863078
Dynamix's 1999 hit mech sim Starsiege

>>736863002
the reason we talk about it at all is because it's so open ended. you see in this thread why people think Gwyn was good and others who say he was not. This is unironically a great way to tell a story in games. Putting it on the player themselves.

>>736855351
DS3 ends with the coming age of Dark, but the Firekeeper tells you that eventually a new flame will spark and usher in the age of Light again.
The game is what happens when you don't let things cycle.

>>736863187
some people are too creatively bankrupt to imagine that the point is the story you take away from it

>>736863187
There’s an upper limit I’d say. You need to give players something to cling onto. DS1 succeeds but I am so fucking sick of Elden Ring lore threads because you can just cobble together whatever schizo Fancanon you want from the shreds of incoherent information the game provides, then claim you’re the only one who’s cracked the code. every thread is just that ad-nauseam.

>>736854389
Thematically, no, it seems to be humanity's choice. We even see unkindled ash voluntarily take the darksign up again so that they can become hollows. Gael up until the very end of the world chooses to be a Slave Knight using Gwyn's miracles long after Gwyn is dead. He is the archetypal man. Up until the he needs to sacrifice everything to gain the Dark Soul, he chooses to carry all the burdens of his past servitude.
No matter what Gwyn's intentions were, the Pygmy lords chose to accept Fillianore as a gift. They even try to crawl to her for help when it is too late.
Shira, who should be in the know, seems to view Filianore as an honest gift for the benefit of mankind.
>They who are ken to God’s name are surely ken to the terrors of the dark. Please, I bid thee take not from the Princess her peace or rest. As the fire waneth, does she lie by the dark, all for the sake of Man.
She may be lying, but she views you as a traitor in the end, not as a mark who woke up.
>Art thou to bed with the dark? Never would I ever... forgive thy lowly kind.

>>736862939
Maybe dont be such a little shit

>>736854510
>Real life black hole looks that
Eat shit, Chud

>>736854389
is Gwyn = Jews?
humans = goyim?

is this what Miyazaki is trying to tell us

>>736863376
Elden Ring frankly went too far. There's just honestly not that much to latch onto. There's plenty of cool shit still, but in the overall the left out pieces aren't half as interesting as Dark Souls. A lot of stuff is either really straightforward, or has too much cut to do anything with. There are still fun questions but there's also just way too much that comes into conflict with the peculiarities of random crap everywhere.

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I'm replaying dark souls 3 which i never finished back in 2016
And am rapidly remembering why it's the only fromsoft game I never bothered to complete

The first half of this game is absolute fucking dogwater and I'm not going to pretend otherwise for some kind of faux gamer cred
Everything is so fucking brown
The textures and distant environment visuals are absolutely heinous
Level design is ass
soundtrack might as well not be there
Every single enemy encounters is just
>10 niggas in a room
> a nigga around a corner
Worst of all the bosses are all kinda dogshit (other than abyss watchers, they're pretty cool)

Road of sacrifices/crucifixion woods in particular is just ???
How are people not giving this area as much shit as lost izalith?

I sure as hell hope it picks up after the catacombs, which is where i dropped it 10 years ago, because holy shit this is a 4/10 game so far.

>>736861368
Nito holding his flame might be the coolest image in any vidya ever

>>736863503
why, what're you gonna do faggot? can't hear you over the sound of my sick ass record player btw, don't bother responding I've got a crystal to stare at

>>736863638
Unironically the single best area of the whole game is when you step out of the catacombs.

>>736863403
I don't believe Gwyn was a giant schemer who outright enslaved everyone. He gave humanity gifts which they became used to, but could never really hold onto because of their nature. Time comes from light in Dark Souls. As that goes away, time is leaving, too. A human as we know it can't exist.
This is part of what angers Aldia. He knows that this fake human life is better than what awaits, but it is a lie.
Dark Souls is more about a pagan fatalism than grand conspiracies, although there are conspiracies. Even the abyssal serpents seem to fail in the end. We see hints of Seethe and Gwyndolin just to show that they never finished what they were working on.

>>736863743
>irithyll

NTA but I don’t agree. It’s the best vista by far. But the cool looking part of the map is the 1 road up to the church where you get ganked by pontiff knights. The rest is more swamp and unremarkable interiors. Irithyll as a level is highly overrated even compared to the catacombs right before it imo.

>>736863638
>Road of sacrifices/crucifixion woods in particular is just ???
>How are people not giving this area as much shit as lost izalith?
probably because it's nowhere even fucking close to the level of lost izalith's shittyness? I don't really even know what there is to get so worked up over in that area. It's a fun little place. More fun with an active online though.

>>736863584
Judaism and Monotheism traces its origins to Sun God/Fire worship
Polytheisms main God is usually called 'Breath' 'Sky' and 'Storm'
Gwyn had access to lightning but only temporarily, and lost it as his fire faded
Besides the 'Titanomacy' everything Gwyn does is very akin to the Bible God, so it seems that the story of Dark Souls is
>Gwyn starts out as a Zeus figure
>becomes greedy like the Jew God and forces the world into the dark ages out of fear and jealousy, almost destroys it
>loses his Zeus like status
>becomes a zombie central to superstitions across the entire world

>>736863893
I like pretty much all of it but I agree that in level design and enemy placement it's not that impressive. The visuals are stunning though and I enjoy going down to the swamp and the interiors honestly, the whole place is cool. I like the dungeon a ton as well, even though I think that might be one of the most griped about areas of the whole game.

I agree that the Catacombs are also pretty good anyways though. On a pure level design basis it's quite good. Probably not as good as the DS1 catacombs but that's a really high bar.

>>736863890
>>I don't believe Gwyn was a giant schemer who outright enslaved everyone.
He was, that part is explicit
Aldia was not written by Miyazaki and DaS2 does not follow the mythological, metaphysical or existential framework of DaS2. Most likely, Aldia can be seen as a Christcuck - and his fear is the fear of his dogma breaking ergo why he never explicitly tells you WHAT the scary thing is, only that it justifies regression.

>>736856757
>Asking for sources in a Souls lore thread
Lol. 90% of the shit people spew about souls lore is personal interpretation with little basis.

>>736864093
Everything to do with Aldia of actual substance came with SotFS which Miyazaki was involved with, so unless you have some specific quote or source of him saying "I didn't write anything to do with Aldia" I'm going to call bullshit. It's more likely he did write him or oversee his dialogue, but I'm not going to stick my neck out and claim he 100% did because I sure don't know.

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>>736863638
Lothric and Undead Settlement are pretty good areas, and some of the later one like Irithyll Dungeon and Boreal Valley are honestly super well done. Road of Sacrifices, Farron Keep and Carthus Catacombs is torture one after the other, and makes the Caelids look like bubblegum by comparison. I ran through those areas without fighting a single enemy and I don't regret it. Just treat those areas like the outside of Cathedral of the Deep, there's no point in killing anything there.

>>736864257
Only Toshifumi Nabeshima is listed as the writer
https://www.mobygames.com/game/72129/dark-souls-ii-scholar-of-the-first-sin/credits/windows/

>>736862228
>pulling shit out of your asses
>pointing to exact things happening
here's your item description you worthless faggot

Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries.
Repairs equipped weapons and armor. Includes weapons with exhausted durability.
While the effects of this spell are rather subtle, its foundations are a well-guarded secret. Light is time, and the reversal of its effects is a forbidden art.

>>736864445
He's not listed as a writer for Dark Souls either bro...

>>736864746
But he is the director, which means he gets to do everything he wants, and he's always the one cited as coming up with the setting, story etc.

>>736861368
Lord Souls are literally fire, that's why the Fire is important, it's a primordial force of chaos, It's some cosmic power granted by actual malevolent deities to make over ambitious cucks like Gwyn dance in the palm of their hand. Anything souls that isn't fire are just souls or the Dark Soul.

>>736864834
And yet he still supervised SotFS and is responsible for a number of the changes it made compared to DS2.

>>736863890
It's also worth pointing out Father Ariandel, who seems to be a thematic stand in for Gwyn. He constantly whips and bleeds himself dry in a fruitless effort to keep the world going, while he slowly loses his mind and outsider themed advisors start running the kingdom.

The Dragons were never unkillable, the DaSPeople just couldnt kill them
The implication that fire is important for disparity, for the ability to kill the unkillable, for the disparity of good things as opposed to bad things is CLAIMED as a metaphysical feat of fire
when in actuality it is simply the byproduct of DaSPeople acquiring essentially the industrial revolution
Gwyn extending the Age of Fire is a parallel to pollution - the monsters of the Dark are a byproduct of the Fire being extended, not the Dark itself
Also Fire is not the source of metaphysical disparity but rather social, its a hungry maw, a black hole that eats everything. And in the realm of Chaos/Demons, Fire actually 'merges' things together. Its why the Last Demon in DaS3 has the MINDS and MEMORIES and ALL TRAUMA of Demonkind.

>>736864895
He's credited as supervisor in both DaS2 and DaS2:SotFS, so you can't deduce anything from that.

>>736865075
no, the magical fire that appeared was actually magical fire that made everything and dragons didn't die or do much of anything except drag on

>>736865075
essentially, if fire implies convergance and devouring, Gwyn wants people to worship fire so he can keep centralizing his power. But the fire devours him, as
>the greater the Fire
>the more it needs to be fed
Have you not thought how odd it is that Fire has ALL creation attributed to it?

>>736865128
We can deduce that he supervised both games.

>>736865128
But we have his own words that he took on more of a role with Scholar of the First Sin than he did DS2, and if there's anything in the lore that reads like Miyazaki did it then it's the extremely important character that got all his lore added into it that was then expounded upon in the very next game he made.

>>736864303
Which is probably why I don't like Dark Souls 3 that much, that game isn't designed for you to kill everything in front of you.

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>>736863245
That's a base game ending, the real true ending of the Dark Souls series is when Santa slurps up all the dark souls and becomes THE dark soul then you put him out of his misery and take the dark soul blood to his daughterfu and she paints a new world with it because the one we're in is DONE. (Yep, she painted the world of The Lands Between, if that wasn't obvious).

>>736865132
Fire didn't make the people who used it. The 'DaSpeople' existed before the fire but they were insignificant, primitive, ontologically non existant.
That's why even though they came from the Dark, they needed to walk to the fire and find Souls in the FIRE.
See the contradiction? Fire brought disparity, DaSpeople are made of Dark (their source) and Fire (their Souls), a merger of 2 opposites. The story is clearly incomplete regarding how the DaSpeople actually came from the Dark after Fire brought Disparity but also Souls, separately from the Dark of the individuals which claimed the Souls.
They literally became their souls, and evolved their Souls (fire), but not their Dark Souls (Darkness).
The Fire didnt create Disparity, mankind did, by Rising from Dark to the Fire, rather than Fire appearing out of nowhere and creating disparity - DaSpeople only started to recognize disparity as they decided to walk to the fire.
Similar to Adam and Eve in Genesis (who were fed the notion of disparity by a Snake, and before you add, in pre-Christian Jewish theology the tree of Knowledge is not of Good and Evil but literally of disparity between what is to Nourish vs what is made by God to destroy/punish)

>>736865320
It actually is though. There's one area of the game where that's not true and that's it. If you're a really dedicated autist you can still even do it there. (Cathedral of the Deep)

>>736865347
Ackjually it was Yharnam

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>>736865320
I think Myiazaki figured out that people rushed his gauntlets, and simply didn't bother as much in DS3. At least the bosses are cool.

>>736865525
Nope, no "people" existed before the fire appeared. It created life. There's no contradiction, you've been at this for a while and you're just a nutter.

>>736865613
>It created life
Dragons are alive
To prove it: Dragons can both become Undead, as well as Zombies/Skeletons/Corrupted by Darkness, and are intelligent as per Seath and Kalameet.
Seath has a Lordran citizenship and is considered legally alive.

>>736865673
>Dragons are alive
Dragons were affected by the fire coming into existence. They were not alive. They simply were.

>>736854389
I really like the ringed knights, the cucked military force of the human race that is obliged by their lords to kneel to fire/sun but keeps a veil on their eyes as a sign of rebellion, really cool and tragic.

>>736865613
How did Gwyn kill the Dragons
>Death was enabled after the Fire
Umm if Dragons were unchanging, why would Fire change them?
Either way, that means before Gwyn killed them they were alive, and while they were alive was when the Age of Ancients was going on.
Clearly Gwyn is lying about doing the impossible seeing the invisible row row fighting the power

>>736865823
>if they were unchanging, how did this thing happening that changed everything change them?
I don't know chief, I'm gonna have to get my top men on figuring this mystery out.

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Why did DS3 add not 1, not 2, but 3 more Gwyn kids with 0 buildup in the previous games? That felt kind of cheap, like they're just throwing shit at the wall. "Oh, you riked Gwyndolin and Gwynevere, here's their long forgotten little sister, also she's sitting at the doorstep of Anal Rondo, member Anal Rondo, yep here it is". And then Nameless + Filianore.

>>736860525
>>736860512
Nah, he's right about them.
The Souls are what make the men, not the other way around.
The Witch of Izalith didn't imbue her Soul with the power of life, it had that power and that is what made her who she was.

Nito didn't make a blank canvas into the Death Soul, he is the Grave Lord because he has the Soul of Death.

>>736865916
Nope. Wielders of souls impart their essence into them. It's why Seath's fragment lingers on as a great soul from his madness and obsession despite not even being his in the first place.

It's why you can make your character however you want, because souls are simply raw power channeled into the wielder's desires.

>>736865347
You are right, but I don't think she painted Elden Ring's world.
It's meant to be a relatively nice, but not too nice ending to the series. She will paint a place that is cold, dark, and very gentle. And a goodly home.
Elden Ring's world isn't doomed like Dark Souls, but it still undercuts the ending if that was the resulting world.

>>736854389
it's spread through humans via embers like a disease.

>>736865872
How would 'the metaphysical property of change' appear in an unchanging land without change? Its like saying the world started with the Dinosaurs and THEN THE METEOR APPEARED
Unless Gwynanity is lying about Fire bringing about disparity and being responsible for creation and order, the only way for this to make sense is contradicted by the ability of Dragons to change as much as Humans, including absorbing the Dark Soul, being undead, being spellcasters and being zombies.

>>736865984
You player can absorb and apportion power as they wish, but they can never free themselves of their Dark Soul, nor what that means with regards to their species or capabilities.
You are a Human because you have the Dark Soul and that Dark Soul has certain characteristics. Just like the God Soul and Gwyn and what type of person he became.

>>736866098
>I don't get it. How can magical things happen?
By writing a story where they did.

>>736865984
The Lord Souls were drawn from the original fire though. Literally plopped out of it

>>736865823
>>736866098
Dragons, trees and rocks at the beginning are representative of a world without entropy/in equilibrium, once fire (aka disparity) was introduced it changed everyone, even dragons, with the oldest being closest to their unchanging selves while later fags (like the gaping dragon) are heavily modified by the world having things now.

>>736865873
Nameless King was [REDACTED] way back in DS1

>>736866115
You refuted nothing I said with no basis, you just said "nuhuh" with a lot of words. It's what we're shown. The lord souls were just powerful sources of their power which were changed by their aspects. Once again I point to the place where this happened, and why everything you ever get a soul from can be used to forge something related to the bearer or for general power, and why souls which had no relation to their bearer are tainted by their attributes when reincarnating.

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I just wish we got to MAUL and DESTROY the fucking serpent snakes once and for all in DS3 like it was originally planned. Gael is pretty kino and cool and all BUT not eeeven close to the payoff that would have been if Primordial Serpents were the target in the DLC. We known those fuckers since DS1 so many years ago. Got to know that all of them were huge bitches and basically the ones behind it all. Such a missed opportunity.

>>736856134
Did you forget your morning meds? It's just a summary of some past events.

>>736866164
Yeah. That's not contrary to anything I'm saying. They got these lord souls and used them, they were not used by them.

>>736866151
Anon no one is talking about that. We're talking about Gwyn lying about Fire being responsible for disparity when in actuality Gwyn is mixing metaphor and metaphysics
What GWYN says by altering history
>Fire is metaphysically responsible for change and disparity
What IS ACTUALLY IMPLIED BY THE EVENTS THAT TRANSPIRED
>Fire can grant power from coalescing if fueled, and in doing so Gwyn fed it a LOT to defeat the Dragons and change the world.
>Gwyns attempt at lying and altering history is Gwyns attempt at feeding the Fire ALL OF HISTORY of the DaS setting
>But fire is not the one primarily responsible for setting metaphysics in motion, instead Gwyn is basically Jesus telling you the world started 3000 years ago

>>736860910
>>736861046
>>being drained of souls is what makes you go hollow.
>No.
It is part of it, but not all.
You can go Hollow while having a ton of Souls, because its about losing motivation.
But most people go Hollow after they die and lose everything because only the player's avatar has the chutzpah to do salty runbacks.

>>736866361
No, actually, we're talking about how you're delusional and keep trying to repeat that the narrator is an agent of Gwyn, but this isn't true and you are literally the only person trying to say this despite every single bit of evidence you try to provide for it being wrong in just about every way you could be.

>>736865823
>Umm if Dragons were unchanging, why would Fire change them?
Light started to exist and infuse the world, and time/life comes with it. We literally see the dragons have degenerate descendants. Miyazaki said this in an interview on the gaping dragon:
>it’s part of an ancient race of mineral based life forms, existing since long before the emergence of mankind, yet, despite its superiority over us, its time has passed, and it finds itself alone in the world, the last of its race forced to survive in any way it can. As to what triggered this change… well, the emergence of life corrupted it, it was warped by emotion and desire…

>>736866443
>the only person trying to say this
not true lol
Remember Gwyn Lord of Cinde- I mean Sunlight's firstborn? Me neither.

>>736866505
Would you say he was forgotten?

gwyn is trans

>>736866583
Look up 'unperson' or damnatio maemoriae

>>736854389
I thought they just appeared on you

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>>736854389
Dark Souls lore is a little lame coming from Elden Ring.
>whole world depends on this small unassuming bonfire that's hidden somewhere below the Firelink Shrine
>you need to burn strong beings (preferably gods) on this bonfire or the world ends, just like that
>btw the sun is fake, all of the light in the world comes from that tiny bonfire somehow
Like this shit don't even make sense. In Elden Ring it's an alien parasite providing great power, but the world can go on without it, you just kill it anyway.

>>736866664
So would you say he was forgotten?

>>736866484
nothing stated there contradicts anything anyone in the thread said though? In fact that affirms that Dragons were not metaphysically unchanging, rather merely being more ancient. The whole arguement is if Fire is metaphysically responsible for change and disparity, or if this is a metaphor Gwyn turned into another one of his many religious lies used to feed the Fire.
The proof was the Dragons, the nature of fire, the nature of things in opposition to fire, the notion that there even is opposition to fire, Gwyns degradation, Gwyns conspiracies, censorship, lying and the end result of DaS3 + the nature of unreliable narrators in the setting.

>>736866771
Every game has a reliable narrator and nothing in your second sentence provides any backing otherwise or for any of your argument.

>>736866875
>>Every game has a reliable narrator
???

>>736866293
If the man defined the Soul, then you'd be able to reject the Dark Soul or reforge it into something else.
You can't make Souls into random things. You can't take the Moonlight Butterfly Soul and use it to make a Fury Sword. The Soul has an archetype to it, it can either be consumed or sold or it can be made into something that reflects its essence.

>>736866901
If you can't understand that sentence I don't know how I can make it any clearer. Perhaps if I said the opposite and overlaid it on a cinematic you might arrive at the point somehow.

>>736866976
you're genuinely retarded

>>736866771
You asked why Fire would change them. I gave Miyazaki's stated reasoning. LIFE corrupted them. They were not alive.

>>736866682
Its possible that the First Flame is only destroying the world through the Faith stat, whose death would have otherwise not meant anything until Gwyns religion took over the world and tried to sacrifice literally everything to it, to the point of destabilizing every other facet of nature.

In other words, Gwyn was basically making CERN in hopes of controlling everyone's thoughts just like that one Alex Jones rant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJixMjW_Os4

>>736854389
>be dragon
>huge boner for chests
>fuck everything that moves in the chest aggressively with the power of a thousand retards
>YUUUUUGE dragon chestpies everywhere
>post nut clarity hits
>other dragon bros will definitely come to notice this
>other dragon bros will DEFINITELY judge and shame you for this
>come up with stupid bullshit for your cream spilling out of everyone
>the low IQ humans completely buy it
>pheeeeew.jpeg
>fly away

>>736866971
The man defines the characteristics of the soul he possesses, not all elements of it or its nature as something else. The Dark Soul is the only "special" soul and that's more of a fact of what was done to its bearers than its soul.
You can make souls into random things. It's called eating them and turning those into whatever you want. Go eat Gwyn's soul and go level up strength, you've made it your own.
Once again, Seath showcases this explicitly.

>>736867113
Can you source the OG Japanese for it?

>>736867056
>t. retard who can't conceive of "and then, despite there being nothing, something happened"

>>736867203
Its both? Its fuel, but with catalytic ability to be more efficient/explicit/identity if taken towards its specialization
Just like in IRL Alchemy

>>736854389
Best set in the entire franchise

>>736867272
The souls you get within the game are both. The original lord souls within the fire were not, they were untainted and the first of their kind. It is by being possessed by their wielders that they took on properties and were shaped.

>>736867352
>The original lord souls within the fire were not
They are called Souls of Lords
there is an implication that in the fire, the proto-Peoples of DaS found 'archetypes and identities'
Gwyn wants to be Sol Invictus (IRL Roman Sun God who ended up absorbing the original Roman pantheon claiming himself as ALL the Gods and as the Sole God, eventually leading to Christianity) except with literally all the Souls of the Fire.

>>736867205
You can look up the source text of the Famitsu's Design Works Interview if you wish. I'll not do any extra digging that you haven't for any of your claims.

>>736867456
No, the implication is that the first flame created identities by creating life in the first place before they found lord souls.

Well, it's not an implication. It's stated.

>>736867113
'Life' is a systemic category here, similar to Animal vs Plant, but does not imply metaphysical life. Similar to how Gwyn lies about the nature of Fire - obv Miyazaki is going to explain things in correct context of the settings terminology and not spoil the twist. In fact Im p. sure Miyazaki never gave out a spoiler that wasnt explicit Foreshadowing (Like Marika === Radagon in the very first Elden Ring teaser).

>>736867540
In Christianity, the soul is the immaterial essence of a person — unique because it is created by God, eternal, and the seat of identity and relationship with Him. A soul is “saved” through faith in Christ and God’s grace.

>>736867690
That's great.
This is a video game.

>>736854389
i think the implication is that having power over bonfires allows you to cast the Darkness curse over all of humanity. So Gwyn did so when he linked the fire.
Before then, it was a manual process (besides the Ringed Knights, there were already Undeads before he sacrificed himself)

Different religions conceptualize souls in different ways. Buddhism generally teaches the non-existence of a permanent self (anattā), contrasting with Christianity's belief in an eternal soul that experiences death as a transition to God's presence in heaven. Hinduism views the Ātman ('self', 'essence') as identical to Brahman in some traditions, while Islam uses two terms—rūḥ and nafs—to distinguish between the divine spirit and a personal disposition. Jainism considers the soul (jīva) to be an eternal but changing form until liberation, while Judaism employs multiple terms such as nefesh and neshamah to refer to the soul. Sikhism regards the soul as part of God (Waheguru), Shamanism often embraces soul dualism with "body souls" and "free souls", while Taoism recognizes dual soul types (Hun and po).

The soul has been a central area of interest in philosophy since ancient times. Socrates envisioned the soul to possess a rational faculty, its practice being man's most godlike activity. Plato believed the soul to be the person's real self, an immaterial and immortal dweller of our lives that continues and thinks even after death. Aristotle sketched out the soul as the "first actuality" of a naturally organized body—form and matter arrangement allowing natural beings to aspire to full actualization.

Medieval philosophers expanded upon these classical foundations. Ibn Sina distinguished between the soul and the spirit, arguing that the soul's immortality follows from its nature rather than serving as a purpose to fulfill. Following Aristotelian principles, Thomas Aquinas understood the soul as the first actuality of the living body but maintained that it could exist without a body since it has operations independent of corporeal organs. In modern philosophy, the three main theories that describe the relationship between the soul and the body are interactionism, parallelism, and epiphenomenalism.

>>736867203
Using your willpower or whatever to absorb the power of a Soul to empower yourself is not the same as changing the essence of that Soul.
Strong Souls with 'character' cannot be changed regarding that character, you can eat them and make them a part of yourself, but not make a God's Soul into a Demon's Soul.

Seath doesn't show case this.
The shard of a Soul that Gwyn granted him is not said to be tainted by his character.

>>736867614
He did explain it in the correct context, both in game and out of universe. The dragons were not "alive" as we think of them, they were eternal beings in an unchanging foggy grey land of stagnation and then fire created life, death, and everything that isn't a rock, archtree or dragon.

>>736861248
The 4 Kings had Dark Souls, which is why they were weak to the Abyss.
Not at all the same.

>>736867871
>The shard of a Soul that Gwyn granted him is not said to be tainted by his character.
Men develop the most peculiar fascinations.
Sometimes their fascinations seem to take control.
Till there's very little man left. Hee hee hee…
Oh, it's like that awful traitor long ago.
He coveted what he did not have, and it drove him mad.
What a curious conundrum. Hee hee hee…
The Writhing Ruin keeps searching as we speak.
Searching for its heart's desire.

>>736855351
it's the firelinking cycle you DS3fag antiDS2schizo

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>>736866329
Get cucked FEEBLE CURSED ONE ʰᵉʰ ʰᵉʰ ʰᵉʰ...

>>736861368
it's because they are linked to the First Flame, and literally burn. This makes them powerful when the Flame is strong, but weak as it fades. Normal souls are in contrast to this, since those can crysyalize to some extent to preserve energy

>>736854389
eldritch ways of rape

>>736866329
it will never not drive me completely insane they don't actually fucking appear again and the only cocksucking thing we actually get is Yuria pleading to Kaathe
I will forever hold a burning dark sign of my own that the most important fucking characters present in the fucking first game's ending never appear again in 2 fucking games and 6 DLCs

>>736861874
Tarnished Archaeology, Crunchy (not as active as others), Nameless Singer, Silent Ellipsis and Scum Mage Info (true schizo tier but very intriguing) are all pretty good

>>736867907
>The dragons were not "alive" as we think of them
But they are killable, bleed, can become Zombies, Undead and many other things and can even breed and reproduce (including with other species)
The division of ArchDragons between alive and not alive is basically just a naming scheme, except used for religious purposes. Not to mention, the unliving Dragons got killed a short while after the rise of the 'living' before the Archdragons had their time to 'regress/degenerate' as stated in the interview.
What youre posing as being 'alive' as opposed to not alive, are the "DaSPeople". But DaSpeoples origin story is itself shrouded and censored by the same origin myth claiming the Dragons werent true life. And the only characteristic of True life is that its an 'us with our exclusive characteristics' vs 'them Dragons'
Except the Dragons turned out to be capable of having all those characteristics too
Shit, in DaS3 humans start reverting to miniature Archtrees as the world ends. The category is derived from the story, and the story is the source for the story's affirmation of the truth and category - its cyclical sourcing

In other words, the only thing affirming the story is the story itself, re framing the disparity between the post-fire People and the pre-Fire dragons as a bigger metaphysical gap than it actually is.

>>736861874
The only lore guy that ever caught me was Tarnished Archaeologist for applying a thorough and unique methodology to examining these game's worlds. The amount of real life references his videos caught compared to any other stuff I've seen is amazing.

>>736868568
>But they are
Now. They weren't. You have an incredible problem with understanding that the appearance of fire changed the very nature of the entire universe in setting.

>>736861874
I like these two channels that Youtube recently sent my way
>https://www.youtube.com/@krzoftheabyss/videos
>https://www.youtube.com/@MoonsPointlessProductions/videos

>>736868648
thats literally what we are discussing?
The fire claims to have changed everything by bringing disparity, yet its feats were
>burning wood
>killing animals though unkillable before
and
>containing in it a bunch of Souls and identities, which gain power the more they converge (this can lead to FTH Miracles which gain power with collective belief)
None of which truly imply the main notion of Fire as basically God itself, but rather a tool used by Gwyn

>>736865045
Father Ariandel is literally Allfather Lloyd
https://youtu.be/JMCzZl7rhzk?si=bEcT3t4Z8HapwwAB

>>736868789
Its feats were creating everything, including the passage of time, people, and the very concepts of living and dying.

>>736868484
>Scum Mage Info (true schizo tier but very intriguing)
I fucking love schizos unironically

>>736868862
>including the passage of time, people, and the very concepts of living and dying.
and thats where the implication gets messy. Because we know Darkness is associated with the unknown and evolution, and the Age of Dark demands the Fires go out.
The DaSPeople 'came from the dark' but werent explicitly created by anything
And the 'death' created as per Nito is just another Soul/Archetype in the Fire, while no one in the setting has a prospect of their individuality, which is why they can be strained and have their Souls literally taken from them and used as a power up, or a crafting material for Big Swords.
The implication on all of these is left ambiguous, especially since most of the Fire we do see in the game tends towards very specific modes of function, and a lot of things that aren't caused by Fire are attributed to Fire, and vice versa.
Fire is claiming itself as the First principle, yet cant prove it.
It does have the power of coalescing, and Gwyn who controls the collective consciousness of people, abuses it in hoping for more control yet destroys the World and all existence

And yet the Dark still exists, agitated by the Fire. Even in the origin myth in DaS1, the concept of Darkness is snubbed and hidden. And the metaphysics imply that Darkness is gentle yet hurt a lot by Fire.

>back to back based Dark Souls threads
You guys are alright on this Sunday.

>>736869107
It doesn't get messy at all. It is incredibly simple. Fire isn't claiming itself as anything. An omniscient narrator is telling us the facts.

>>736869218
>An omniscient narrator is telling us the facts.
A narrator tells us information from the PoV of a character in the setting

>>736860509
THE NATURAL STATE IS NOT HOLLOW!!!
STOP BELIEVING GWYN'S PROPAGANDA.

The Dark is literal entropy and I haven't been convinced otherwise.

>>736869272
No. Here we are again, you simply asserting it as something it's not without a single thing to back your claim.

>>736869353
She spouts the Gwynianity version of the pygmys story, gives no place to humanity in the origin myth and is clearly spouting the darksign story in a way thats emotionally charged, not factual in any way.
And also makes the very metaphysical claims we're disproving. If shes lying, then she is lying a lot more than it seems.

Ill add another to the pile
>IF humanity had to thrive to destroy the dragons, why did the Dragons simply let them do so for so long? Why did the Dragons wait so long? What even was the point of burning down all the Archtrees
>IF humanity had immediately destroyed the Dragons upon acquiring the Souls of Lords, where did Seath the Scaleless come from? How did humanity end up so deeply organized

>>736854389
>CTRL+F Way of White
>0 results
These niggas don't know...

>>736869649
Elaborate

>>736869620
She gives a completely neutral synopsis and does not lie nor propagandize and says only verifiable facts that hold up through every game.
>why did
We don't know.
>IF
They didn't immediately destroy them. They waged a war.

In typical Japanese trope
>YOU MUST DESTROY THE GODS AND THE CHURCH
This is no different. The gods are evil and enslaved humanity and genocided the dragons. Don't be fooled, humanity's "darkness" is life, creativity, love, and the power to endure and overcome

The gods want to trap everyone in an infinite cycle that gets slightly worse every time just to hold onto their power over humans

>>736854389
>make a cool final city DLC place with some sick knight enemies
>make 90% of the DLC about some shitty meme swamp with meme enemies instead
what were they thinking

>>736870058
Both of DS3's DLCs ultimately let me down. I should replay them soon and see if my opinion has changed.

>>736870000
holy fuck
checked

>>736870058
the swamp is pretty small and doesn't slow you down or poison you, it's just for the vibes

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>>736870000
nice digits

>>736870000
THE DEMIURGE AND THE MONAD

>>736868824
Whether true or not, it's not really the point. That is the in-universe facts, but I was talking about the author's narrative intent with Ashes of Ariandel. It is a microcosm of the Dark Souls world and gets the player ready for the final DLC which ties into all of that history. People are free to disagree with that, but it seems to be the purpose to me. It's kind of a pointless DLC if it isn't. We learned uhhh that Sulyvhan had a tree mom.
As a side note, I don't think that Lloyd theory is true, just based on something else Miyazaki said which is that (at the time of Dark Souls) he considered the painted world Corvians to be followers of Velka whos bodies morphed from devotion. That could have changed, but it doesn't really track with Lloyd unless he had a change of heart. I guess he was revealed as a fraud, so he could have done some soul searching, but it's a stretch. I don't think it really changes the story one way or another.
>I always thought of the Painted World as a place where things go to escape and the bird men are no different. They were originally designed as worshippers of the Goddess Velka whose bodies were warped by their devotion. I think this obsession makes them really interesting characters.

>>736870058
>what were they thinking
The whole world was sinking in a festering, bug-ridden swamp, and ends in a near lifeless desert. Shout out to that one Ringed Knight.

>>736871808
>but it seems to be the purpose to me. It's kind of a pointless DLC if it isn't
Never really thought about it that way

>>736865347
>>736866071
If I wanted to be a crackpot I would say ER is a very distant prequel to souls, placentasaxophone retvrning the world to rock and dragons at some unknown point

>>736854510
Bayle paizuri

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>>736872259
And DS3 could be a prequel to ER, making a complete circle. Hyetta looks very similar to the DS3 Fire Keeper.
>placentasaxophone
lol

>>736872187
I think it's the same thing FromSoftware did with Shadow of the Erdtree. The lore additions weren't as important as the thematic resonance it has with the rest of the story.
It re-emphasizes a few times the narrative of grudges -> division -> betrayal/war -> both parties left grievously wounded and filled with grudges.
People get lost in the sauce of "oooh, I'm going to find the secret person who had the secret plan that caused everything". That is definitely something that can be happening in the background, but Miyazaki also isn't creating an arbitrary puzzle that says nothing.
This causes disappointment when people go into the DLCs looking for Zanzibart behind the curtain.

>>736870000
HOLY MOLY
SO TRVE, KING

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>>736872259
>>736872712
There was a video one this on youtube I watched like a year ago explaining this "theory".

Basilisks present in all games was a huge thing they got into + dragon scales being anti-time meaning it makes sense for dragons to outlast everything + beeg trees forming the foundation of the new works, etc. etc.
Been looking for that vid again for a while if any anons know the one and can find it and link it.

>>736873059
Who cares about the Basilisks, my favorite universal constant is Patches.

>>736873108
Most games have patches, even ones that arent made by FROM

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>>736873108
Need a 2 hour video essay with a buddhism angle where Patches is one of the Buddhas who achieved enlightenment but chose to not escape Samsara, so he can retain his consciousness through reincarnation.

>>736854389
Humans were made by the furtive pygmy. The one who found The Dark Soul

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>>736873108
He's the highest IQ NPC

>>736873218
And this is why Clerics are universally evil and should be reviled.

>>736855351
The dark ending suggest that embers will reginite for another age of Fire inevitably, so it is somewhat a cycle. We have no indiciation of this cycle happening before that however.

>>736872259
I definitely entertained the idea and wondered if the frenzied flame ending might be a prequel to Dark Souls. Ultimately, though, I think it's just call backs and Fromsoftware's design language. It's a shorthand for them to communicate ideas. It's not 100%, but they kind of rhyme with each other.
They like to recycle and recontextualize themes. For example in Shadows of the Erdtree they did an unusal thing and said "if rot is so bad, then why do pickles taste good?". It was more a Christian take on rot compared to how they usually handle it, which caught me off guard, but I guess it is more appropriate for Elden Ring.

>>736854389
>How does he do it?
Zenorf radiation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnhegREEQfk

>>736873473
>"if rot is so bad, then why do pickles taste good?". It was more a Christian take on rot compared to how they usually handle it, which caught me off guard, but I guess it is more appropriate for Elden Ring.
No thats not it
Rot is Fermentation
Fermentation is used to make wine etc
Dionysus is the God of Fermentation and Wine and Immortality (and Merry making). Becoming Dionysus is actually the core of one of the "Denominations" of Hellenism (the Greek religion) known as Orphism.
And Japs have some weird spiritual habits with alchohol as well.

>>736873597
More of a Christian take in the sense of "all created things are good" as opposed to Fromsoftware's more usual Shinto sense of rot BAD we need flowing water NOW.

>>736873352
>The dark ending suggest that embers will reginite for another age of Fire inevitably
Never happened. Not canon.
Just like killing Gwyndolin in DS1. You can optionally do it. But it is not canon. It never happened in the story.

>>736854389
It's in the intro of DS1, the Way of White brands dead bodies and they get revived as hollows. Solaire's dialogue is weird in that it suggests he sought out becoming undead as a means to find his sun. So he pretty much figured out that there is a process to it.
After the Chosen Undead links the fire the next ages of fire start to unravel reality at the seams and Gwyn's backup-backup plan comes into play as the dark souls has only grown over time and is now shortcutting people into being hollows as humans try to turn back into pygmies. They feed more of their humanity into bonfires but it's like balancing two scales with ever-increasing weights, it's totally untenable.

>>736873597
w-what

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>>736873521
>exactly 0 seconds of radio silence
Enough to make any man crestfallen

>>736854389
There's a funny meme about how real communism hasn't been tried but communism replaced with the age of dark. Would be cool if someone found it and posted it here.

>>736873780
>>More of a Christian take in the sense of "all created things are good" as opposed to Fromsoftware's more usual Shinto sense of rot BAD we need flowing water NOW.
That's still a polytheist take - Christianity does have evil 'things' its just that what they are or how they work changes depending on the day of the week. Idolarity, Blasphemy. Communion with Polytheist Gods or even reading their stuff, Forbidden Knowledge, Pharmakeia (psychoactive potions) are all 'evil', as are any objects sourcing themselves to such things. The whole evil as privation thing is selectively enforced based on cognitive dissonance. Its why so much polytheist content was burned.
Eventually, Catholicism bent the knee and reframed this as 'nothing is evil except evil itself Aka Satan and Demons and anything associated with them and things that defy God (which still included a lot of things as this was very arbitrary)' but that's historic revisionism on their part.
Polytheist religions are the ones who think 'anything can be purified, healed and thus can be made holy and divine'

>>736873906
Scarlet Rot is fermentation, Wine is made by Fermentation
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Orphic-religion
https://snakecult.net/posts/orphic-cosmogony/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#fn:9

>>736854471
Then explain it to me please

>>736873847
The metaphor is pretty simple
Fires grow by being Fed
Fires that Grow are bigger
Bigger fires need more fuel to maintain themselves

>>736873059
I think I remember the video you're talking about but I can't fucking find it either, it was from a really small channel and was just kind of an off the cuff schizo theory type vid.

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>>736873521
>american's perception of anime game is just sony movie

>>736874059
I think you are getting caught up too much in the Christian part. It was just a comparison, man. You clearly understood what I was going for when you bring up evil as a privation.

>>736874429
I saw that as "Miyazaki is being apologetic to Christianity/Monotheism" (which he is normally not) when the point was actually still polytheist which is what Miyazaki writes around, ergo ergo

>>736870512
it takes fucking forever if you wanna clean out all pickups and see everything there is to see. (its mostly irrelevant)
Matter of fact though is that theres a billion more meme enemies than cool knights. You get barely any of them

>>736863584
He's more like classic pagan chief god like you'd see in a myth such as the Atrahasis.
Where his rule is more about maintaining order and stability over modern concepts of pure benevolence and paternalism.
In this case, his attempt to hold to that order and stability had the backlash of treating the world itself as a fuel for the fire.

>>736873816
The Dark Souls 3 ending has 4 endings, the dark ending being among one of them. There is no "canon" ending, its the last game and the logic promotes that embers will reignite again eventually if you do it. Things that happened and things that are possible are two different things. Its possible to kill Gwyndolin even if it didn't actually happen in Dark Souls 1.

>>736874675
No, it was the other way around. Miyazaki/Fromsoftware were straying from their usual Shinto (and not universally pagan) portrayal of rot. It's more appropriate for Elden Ring, because an inherent/intended unity of all things underpins much of the story.
Dark Souls doesn't really have that. It has a fatalistic world at least after the Age of Fire, and some things have to go forever.
The only solution to the dying world discovered in Dark Souls was to universe hop through a Super Mario 64 painting.

>>736875129
>>He's more like classic pagan chief god like you'd see in a myth such as the Atrahasis.
>Where his rule is more about maintaining order and stability over modern concepts of pure benevolence and paternalism.
Huh no he's not, he's literally pre-Judaism Yahweh, when he was still a polytheistic God whom the Jews wanted to turn into a Sun God.
But Yahweh was not a head God at the time.

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>>736875395
>Miyazaki/Fromsoftware were straying from their usual Shinto (and not universally pagan) portrayal of rot. It's more appropriate for Elden Ring, because an inherent/intended unity of all things underpins much of the story.
Shattering of a Tree, then fixing it is the main concept of Kabbalah.
It is an event representing the World trying to comprehend Gods plan and creation, which shatters upon failing and must be fixed and restored to 'improve it'
Kabbalah is Jewish
Judaism is Monotheistic
Miyazaki is anti Monotheism

(unless you are a Dungeaterchad) Ranni is clearly the Good ending and she's a Witch serving the Polytheist Moon cult styled after Greece and literally named after the place from which Greece got their most important of Moon Deities from (Caria).

>>736864006
>but only temporarily, and lost it as his fire faded
Where and when did he lose it?
First time I'm reading this.

Why did the Nameless King never lose it?

>>736864006
How do you know all that

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>>736873780
This. Do you have any more takes or favorite sources for your studies? I feel like you have a firmer grasp on what From’s actual narrative intentions are

>>736873473
I found that interesting too.
Corruption is something that FromSoft games are pretty clear is horrible and has to be prevented at all times.
But then Romina and her rot is very different from typical corruption.

>>736874149
I said you wouldn't get it...

>>736875410
He has nothing in common with Yahweh, even in its early forms.

>>736875585
Gwyn Lord of Sunlight downgrades to Gwyn Lord of Cinder by the end of DaS1 with a Fire moveset instead of Lightning centered one.

The Soul of Cinder does actually have lightning moves, either being an oversight or implying that eating the Chosen Undead/Lords/the whole world made him powerful enough to have lightning again.
>>736875848
Its because Scarlet Rot is not 'corruption' its literally 'fermentation' the same one that makes wine. In previous works, Miyazaki does not compare Dragonrot (which would better translate directly as 'decay') or anything to the nature of Fermentation, but since Malenia's Scarlet Rot thing is partially based on Dionysus (immortality and all) he probably thought to differentiate them.