Case closed.
>>736891764why do midlife crisis uncs want us to take games seriously bro tears
>>736891764>how can x be y if z is a? Checkmate atheists!
>What's so bad about people wanting video games to be taken seriously as art?
>>736891764The Pathologic series already exists.
Requiem for a Dream is a stupid movie that sucks assBlood Meridian is very fun to read No one read Blood Meridian and said wow that was not fun to read, just because the content is unpleasant does not mean the experience of reading it is.
>>736891764>are you telling me Requiem for a Dream is fun?Yes. Stop mistaking the tone of a movie with how it's supposed to make the audience feel. Being in awe can be fun. Being scared can be fun. Being put through an emotional rollercoaster can be fun. There's a reason why overly preachy movies are criticized to hell even if the message is valid-- they aren't fun experiences for the audience and thus are not effective at their goals. Fuck you.
>>736891850
>>736891764he's right, but he's probably not talking about the games that are actually examples of what he's talking about
>>736891974Blood Meridian is a ton of fun if you appreciate good prose.
The game can have really dark themes or whatever themes it wants but if the act of playing it is unpleasant (not purposefully as in it's difficult or stressful but just dull and shitty to play) then it fails as a game and shouldn't be a game.
video games are toys, not art
>>736891764Games that aren't developed to be fun aren't games, they're "interactive experiences" that use gaming hardware to experience.
I'd rather a game be fun than interesting. I see value in a game like Deadly Premonition, however it is not a good game.
>>736892095That's my point, people are morons who believe you have to see the content of the material in question exactly the same way that it is delivered to you. Such a person would not even finish Blood Meridian. They'd get the ick because they're a feminized dipshit. If you confronted such a person with the suggestion they're being retarded they'd fall back on moral grandstanding and suggest there's something wrong with you for enjoying Blood Meridian. These people are not smart and do not think for themselves. Pure NPC unironically.
a story can be interesting while the gameplay is funall the really matters
>>736892178Deadly Premonition is a pile of shit. It can be interesting and entertaining in spite of that. But Deadly Premonition is a pile of shit.If it were delivered well it would be good. But it isn't. It is the literary equivalent of a book you really wanted to appreciate but the themes and ideas are poorly presented. Like a fifth grader trying to write Moby Dick.>Hey this could be good but it's shit.
>>736891764"Muh art's not taken seriously cuz I chose to shit up the video game market with it instead of making gay short films". Choose a different medium faggot, video games are more than just art.
have we changed so little in 15 years?
>>736892375damn it's been 15 years since I saw that post being made?
>>736892161>art has no objectiveBrainlet>>736892178Quality and capture are not synonymous in any media form. Sometimes something objectively bad can be enjoyable by nature of its shittiness. However, works in this category tend to be really polarizing because others cannot put up with the lack of quality.
>>736891974dude RfaD is a ton of fun.
>>736892375Grim.
>>736891764>Requiem for a dream>High artlmao at this retard.At least try to pretend being smart with a better pick like Persona or Satantango.
>>736891764depends on the definition of fun, when most people say fun they mean bing bing wahoo instant gratification slop and yeah, games shouldn't be like that. the average normalfag nowadays won't find something like ultima or even classic fallout "fun" because it's not a pick up and play garbage and requires at least some amount of investment and commitment. same with any kind of even slightly complex games even if they're fast paced action, if it requires skill and investment, the average goycattle won't think it's "fun"that's why this whole argument is meaningless, it's people playing old crpgs and arcade games trying to argue with roblox players
>>736891764and why should I listen to some literal who indie developer
>>736891764games arent art. they're toys. toys have to be fun.
A masterpiece just demonstrates that you understand fully the practical skills of the medium you're creating a piece for.And for the the record gaming has terrible unengaging pieces of shit for psuedo intellectuals to make themselves feel smart about made by dickheads that thought they were too good for the clientele they were making shit for.They're called Everhood and Spec Ops the line.
>>736891764Games have to be engaging. Hell the most popular games aren't fun, they're endless psychological manipulations where you runt through checklists and perform rote tasks every single day.
>>736892754Gachafag detected!
>>736891764>Hey guys, I don't understand that when people say games should be fun they mean engaging and entertaining.Midwits should be culled.
>>736891764And retards like the OPs pic is how we get depression filled trash like TLOU2 instead. Sure, it's not fun, nor is it interesting. It's a story about a group of horrible people being awful to each other until it ends on a wet fart. Very masterpiece worthy.
>>736892817That's not in praise of Gacha, if you didn't notice. Gacha games aren't "Fun", they are gambling for the poor and distracted.
>>736891764Do you get paid to post twitter screenshots or do you do it for free
>>736892817>literally says gacha games aren't fun
>>736892840now to be fair, Blood Meridian is also a story about a group of horrible people being awful to each other and everyone around thembut Neil Druckmann is a hack
>>736891764>twitter NPC doesn't understand their are multiple types of fun, one of the most obvious being engaged focus on a subjectThose movies are all fun to watch in their own way, if it wasn't fun it'd be as entertaining as watching paint dry or grass grow.
>>736891764A video game is a game that has video. It's not a movie. Its goal should be closer to a board game or RPG. So yes, it should be fun. And anyone who says otherwise legitimately does not understand the concept of media.
>>736891764>Blood Meredian>Not funThe only unfun part of it is McCarthy's refusal to use standard punctuation during any conversation.
>>736891764all the things he listed strive for certain degree of aesthetic pleasure. unfun games are like taking pictures of corpses and saying it's art and it's supposed to make you nauseous.
>>736892754Books have to be engaging. Everything ever had to be engaging to be good. If the prose sucks no one cares about your shitty book either. All the great works are fun to read.
>>736891764He is 100% objectively correct.
>>736893038"videogames are art" faggots have single digit IQs. They're beyond retarded.
>>736891764>masterpieces>look inside>it's all literal who movieslop
>>736893120There are exceptions to needing quality prose or art or assets, like the endless fascination with Tails Gets Trolled.
>>736892053>Sunless SeaOne of the GOATs
>>736891764Why are some grown ass men so insecure about enjoying games?
>>736891764Requiem for a Dream sucks my cock
>>736891764These arguments stop making sense when you realize there are a bunch of artsy games (games like Indika or Bramble: The Mountain King) that aren't 'fun' but are more like experiences and no one is stopping anyone from making games like that.The ironic part is that because people like this don't take 'games' seriously it also means that those same artsy games rarely meet critical or financial success.
>>736893263noice
>>736891764Videogame aren't movies.Case closed.
'fun' is like saying 'im having a blast'
I'M HAVING A LOT OF FUN
>>736891764>implying Guernica isn't the funnest shit there isfag
>>736892178Only genuinely good thing about it is the protagonist and zack
PathologicHe's just a retard
>>736893038when people make this argument or talk about games and fun they use fun in the shallow "fun and whimsy" way and not in a more general the games being interesting and engaging way. that's why they say shit like horror movies or tragedies aren't "fun" but at the end of the day they're consumed for entertainment the argument is the same and most people agree with it, but there's misunderstandings because not everyone is using the same definition for the words used
>>736893318Blasthavers, our response???
>>736893379I'm having a fun
>>736892668Games and toys are strictly opposed by definition.A game has rules and a toy doesn't. Video games cannot be toys, even the most sandbox ones.
>>736892212It's not even his best book, The Crossing is. I might even put The Passenger above it. Don't get me wrong, I love the book still, I just wish more people gave his other works a read, too. On your point, I've heard similar multiple times, including a bookstore where a dude in a ponytail was telling someone that they shouldn't read Heart of Darkness because it was about a white male exploiting indigenous people. Even the woman he was talking to gave him a look lole "oh damn, he's retarded". It's crazy how people view works of fiction now, completely missing all context, let alone subtext. I mean, hell, it's not even from the POV of Kurtz, just a dude retelling the events, most of which he wasn't even a part of. Feels like the stage before ignorant book burning begins.
>>736891764He's right. That's why videogames aren't art.
>>736891764And why would I take video games seriously?
>>736893428Your FACE isn't art!
Roblox
>>736891764>le taken seriouslyThis normie is thinking that "3rd person cinematic press X to do an action" are games.think again bitch>twitter threadWho is this faggot anyway? OP's uncle?
>>736893481I took my role as bell keeper very seriously in Dark Souls 2, only let 3 through in my 250hrs abusing people trying to get through that door.
/v/ is so fucking shit now, no one here plays or understands games
>>736893372It takes about three seconds to think of titles which aren't about fun and whimsy either. Is a games like Endless Ocean fun and whimsy? What about Shenzhen IO? Is a game like Obra Dinn about hitting buttons to bing bing or the narrative exploration? There are plenty of pretentious walking sims too.
>>736893596it always has been buddy too many pedo anime freaks
>>736893596Nah, I understand video games. You press X, X, X, X, Y, Y, Y, X, X, and you will be suck.
>z0mg look at this engagement bait from twitter!!!!!Why are these threads not instantly banned? Give the OPs a full 30 day block from even seeing the website. Do the same to this >>736893519 spamming faggot.https://arch.b4k.dev/v/search/image/jtreaflDtNZE1Lo94qsNUg/
>>736891764yeah but I never want to rewatch those artsy movies. I want to rewatch fun movies and replay fun games
>>736893645Wooooooooow
>>736891764Fun, in the context of video games, is just a short hand synonym for "entertaining and engaging," and, just like movies have to be entertaining and engaging, so do video games. The reason the word fun became the default term is because things that are fun are automatically entertaining and engaging.Being interesting is not enough. The tax code and its history of most countries is interesting, it is also boring as shit and no one bothers to engage with it beyond the bare minimum unless it is their job. Interesting does not instantly make something entertaining or engaging, it just makes a thing a curiosity.
>>736891764this is why westoids will never make good games btw
>>736893045>anon spat
Downward Spiral is fun to listen to. Also Requiem for a Dream is garbage, the only won who didn't deserve it was the mom. Everyone else got what was coming to them.
>>736891764The hell does a movie have to do with a video game? What a retarded take. If my grandma was a bicycle she'd have wheels type shit.
>>736891764Why do I need games to be taken seriously?They're games. You play a game, any game, because it's fun.
>>736893624try talking about those games and you'll get 50 posts saying they're not real video games because they don't have gun and ball or bing bing wahoo, though I don't doubt that when the guy in the OP says "games are art" he means movie games and not games that actually understand and use the medium to its advantage
>>736892375has i really been that long here?
>>736893970The mom totally deserved it. She was absolutely obsessed with getting on TV and was willing to do literally anything to make it happen, including knowingly downing bottles of amphetamine. Literally everyone in that movie made the worst possible decisions and paid for it. I didn't realize until later I was supposed to feel bad and sympathetic for the morons.
>>736891764being interesting is "fun". if you are not entertained by the ideas presented, the game is not "fun", nor is the movie
>>736894148Yeah and for the most part I agree with you.
>>736891764found this guy's favorite moviehttps://imdb.com/title/tt5375100/
>>736891764Pathologic makes a good case for interactive misery. it makes wonderful use of ludo narrative to sell the setting and scenario. that said it's not very popular exactly because of this. a miserable movie doesn't require one to experience that misery firsthand to see the film to it's end.
>>736891764Mid wit Twitter post games can be interesting, dark and complex all while being fun, its an advantage of the medium.
both sides of this argument is retarded, one side thinks games should be taken seriously as an art form and they're talking about TLOU2 and the other side thinks games shouldn't be an art form because when they think of art they also think about TLOU2they're both wrong, dodonpachi daioujou is art, ninja gaiden is art
I don't know why this is such a controversial opinion, we already have a perfect example of this. Silent Hill 2 is one of the best games ever made. Its gameplay and puzzles suck ass
>>736894379>Silent Hill 2I love SH2. Never played it, but it's great to watch.
video games are fun all video games are fun even the bad oneswe need to cease these foolish debates immediately
@literallywhohere's another excuse of why i hate video games: shit that has nothing to do with games. i'm going to keep making bad games and then blame everyone but myself.
>>736891764BANALLTWITTERTHREADS
>>736894482Some are only fun because you're experiencing their terribleness with friends. Desert Bus would be the equivalent of watching paint dry playing it solo.
>>736894154Why are you being disingenuous? You know very well that no one describes serious works of art as fun and now you're trying to change the word to mean something it doesn't just so it fits your world view.
>he thinks spicy food is scary and sad
>>736894482fun is just a buzzword people use when they can't explain what makes the game good and engaging
>>736891764The only people who want games to be "taken seriously as a medium" are talentless art major hacks who couldn't cut it in a "real" artistic field and have now flock to video games in an attempt to prove that they are not, in fact, useless losers.
>>736894819TRUTHNUKE.
>>736894482everyone participating in these debates are retarded and they don't understand what fun meansignore that retarded part and the argument is still the same, the guy in the OP is the dev of a shitty splinter cell clone, I think it's a good example. the average /v/tard nowadays would say splinter cell isn't fun because you have to play it slow and carefully instead of running around shooting everyone. I don't know when or how it happened but all video game discourse even on /v/ somehow devolved into people saying a game isn't fun if it isn't mindless entertainment like a nintendo game or dudebro shooters
>>736894612He looks like a cross between Gene Shalit and a child molester
>>736894819This post pegs these kind of people so hard they'd probably get off to it.
fun is a buzzword because fun is the very core of games. saying a game is good because it's fun is like saying some house is good because it has a roof. this is not what someone who appreciates good houses would say - a pleb without taste would.
>>736891764Paraphore meets this criteria and thus qualifies as "art"
>>736891764Interesting is a sub-category of being funFun is literally anything that you can derive entertainment from. Fun can be a deep piece of literature or a brisk hike in the mountains. Fun can be the process of making or eating a good meal. What this guy is saying isn't just wrong, it is fucking meaningless.
>>736891764>Requiem for a Dream isn't funASS TO ASS!
Video games are now just another medium where you can express yourself and have been for the vast majority of their existence.Some devs want to make art, some devs want to make games.This back and forth that vidya HAS to be one or the other is retarded. Let the art faggots get their gay ass walking sims and let the mechanics fags get their numbers go up games because those two things are not actually competing for the attention of the same people.
>>736891764It doesn't have to be fun, it has to be entertaining.
>>736892053This is how it usually goes. I agree with him on some level but if you ever ask for examples 99% of the time you get either last of us hollywood-aping slop or some kind of asian-american diaspora in the form of the shittiest preachiest indie game you have ever seen in your life.
>Books have to have good prose to be readable>Movies have to have good cinematography and acting to be watchable>Music has to have good sound design and theory to be listenable>Games don't have to have good gameplay because.... THEY JUST DON'T OK YOU HECKING CHUD
this is how we got a tranny simulator
>>736891764Why is that dipshit equating movies and video games. No one ever said nor implied that movies are supposed to be fun. They are movies, ie - a dramatic representation of some event, whether that even is happy, tragic, or any thing else. On the other hand, the medium is called "video game" where "game" is the key word. Games are meant to be fun or else they cannot be called a game but a chore. Now, that dipshit might be talking about a small sub-genre called movie games such as Red Dead Redemption 2 or Death Stranding but those aren't games. Those are movies that use game elements to move the sucker, I mean, player, from one movie segment to the next.
>>736891764The people that argue this are also often the same type of dudes that argue that games should have easy modes, because they ironically don't realize that challenge or friction is what adds to the "art" of the game they're playing. Games are a form of art, but the key part that makes them different from other mediums is the gameplay. "Games need to be taken seriously" fags are people that just want games to be more like movies or TV shows. People that actually understand that games are already art don't need to prove anything, because feeling you need to prove it can be taken seriously is a tacit admission that you're not confident in it and don't already believe they're art/masterpieces.
Most people with artistic vision worth experiencing aren't game devs. The fact that you almost have to be some kind of shut-in no lifer to even create a game filters out a lot of actually interesting people with something of substance to say.
>>736891764Just replace fun with engaging. Games need to be engaging
>>736891974>Requiem for a Dream is a stupid movie that sucks assBased>Blood Meridian is very fun to readCringe
>>736894138i hope you didnt forget, anon
the medium is the messagethat is all
>>736895445Bullshit. He's literally giving you examples of media that would never be described as fun.
>>736891974This.
>>736891764Why did subhuman cattle invade my hobby and want games to be movies for whatever reason?
>>736896518skill issue
>>736896732Video games are where writers go when hollywood doesn't want them.
>deeply insecure adult plays a medium designed to entertain teens>deeply insecure adult wants to elevate said medium to 'fix' his insecurities
>>736891764>medium x isn't like medium yIs this nigger stupid
>>736891764>Who the hell said roller coasters have to be fun?!
>>736893318games are literally devices made to have blasts.
That's why games like Drakengard exist. They're not fun, they're not entertaining, they play like shit but they stick with you.
>>736891764I have never heard of these books until now.I assume they're shit based on that.
>>736891764>fear & hunger is funlol
Fun is shorthand for entertainment to non-autists.Media can compel, scare, excite, interest, relax, even disgust or enrage you, but if it fails to convince you to finish it, it's not entertaining.
>fun action movies usually sell more than arthouse depression movies>there is room for both, just don't expect the same sales numbersalmost like most people prefer fun and action
>>736891764>twitter shit
>>736892375I like the guy that coined qualityslop. Really pushing the game forward with that.
>No, you don’t understand. Drakengard being dogshit in gameplay ties into the narrative and the developers’ intent. You just don’t get it.Only midwits are like this. They are lolcows for high IQ people
>>736894612Isn't this that home invader? He shaved his stache?
>>736891764Never heard about any of these games, probably because they aren't fun.
>>736894605>serious works of artgo write a book or screenplay then you fag. video games aren't for you
>>736891764I mean, nobody's stopping that pretentious fuck or anyone else from doing that. "Fun" is what brings people in to play a game in large numbers though. If it's just some art project, you get that audience, and that audience neither buys shit nor turns out for you.Even worse demo to appeal to than "modern audience".
>>736891764Blood Meridian is a lot of fun, that's the only reason it's a good book.
>>736900080It's a really funny book, I guess ESLs get filtered or something
>>736891764it's just a game kek imagine taking it seriously jfc
>Requiem for a Dream is funSome parts of it, sure.
>>736891764fart sniffing pseud
>>736891764>I want a misery simulator!Actually fuck off?I play games to relax and briefly escape reality. So yes, that needs to be fun for me to do. If I wanted to be "challenged", I'd read a damn book.
i bet he's jewish too
>>736891764He's not wrong, but good luck playing games like pic-related back to back.
>>736891764People say fun but they should really say engaging. If a game isn't interesting to take control of and play, it isn't using the medium properly and would be better served being a movie or book or whatever else.
>>736891764This is why For Honor is the game with the most artistic integrity.
>>736891764As soon as video games started to be "taken seriously", they were immediately used as a way of pushing homos, trannies, ugly women, and other faggotry.I don't want a fucking sermon about social justice, you stupid fuck, I just want to have fun.
blast having is a requirement for a game to be good
Reminder that "artistic devs" are simply those who lack the knowlegde to make good gameplay so they just resort to walking simulators with a couple puzzles and walls of textThats also the reason why indie devs stay forever indie devs in 99% of cases, they have no place in a professional studio
>literal twitter nobody screenshot will get 400 replies because /v/ is miserable
>>736891764It needs to engage you and most games do that with them being fun for you.Everyone shat on the first tranny story walking simulator. No one talks about it anymore, because it's not a fun experience. Just a one time interactive story. People won't replay it, because it's not fun.
>>736893481Because you should take everything you do seriously. If something isn't worth being serious about it, it isn't worth doing.
Anon said it right. Games need to be engaging, not necessarily fun. I spent thousands of hours in fallout 4 not because I am having fun with it but something it does make my brain addicted to building shanty towns and scrapyards.
>>736893224Even then Tails Gets Trolled is still fun to read, and part of the reason for that is watching Lazerbot grow as an artist in terms of both art quality and writing.
>>736891764What is that retard even talking about? Games can have sad/depressing stories, plenty do. It's gameplay that has to be 'fun', which doesn't mean "bing bing wahoo", it just means it has to be 'good'. Bad gameplay isn't the equivalent of a downer plot, it's the equivalent of production errors, terrible camera work etc.
>>736891764'Fear & Hunger' is a brilliant example of a great game that's not fun at all. I was obsessed, angry & scared more often than not, but still sank hundreds of hours into it until I got 6 endings & felt satisfied.Not sure if that qualifies as "fun", but it was definitely an exciting brain taser to uncover as many secrets as possible.
Anyone who wants games to be "art" or "taken seriously" is a normalfag bitch who thinks gaming embarassing and finds the idea of playing a videogame extremely cringe, but also lives in a time when gaming is "socially acceptable" and games are "viral memes" so he has to play games despite hating them. In such a twisted situation, it's better to demand that the whole medium is reshaped so you don't have to feel uncomfortable anymore.Basically the same people who'd treat gamers like embarassing losers or future mass shooters back in the day are now "mature grown-ups who also play videogames" demanding gaming to be a "mature artform that gets taken seriously" while bitching and moaning about anything "immature" or "video-gamey".
>>736891764Yet another C-list writer desperate for approval from his Hollywood friends.
>>736891764>high school days>stay home from school because nobody cares>friends t-9 txt me they're coming over>one brought requiem for a dream on dvd>watch it on my ps2 while sunlight pours through the blindsmiss you shayne. why your mom spelled it that way i hate it
>>736892161>Frazetta and CorbenI was going to say anybody who brings up Frazetta is just a dudebro with a fake interest in art, but I thought I should be fair and look up the other guy. Big surprise, it's more pulp.It's like a guy who's "totally into movies" and his top 10 are all westerns or marvel movies.
>>736892161Jim is pusdo-intellectual and you look retarded for posting this.
I don't know what this guy is talking about, league of legends and wow aren't fun at all and tons of people play those.
>>736891764Zoomers call fucking everything they like a "masterpiece", so surely all games are art by this metric?
hey guys judge my joke i wrote in the style of norm macdonald"Hyperbole is getting out of hand"
Well they have to be ENTERTAINING, which you can argue on whether or not is a pure synonym for funThose films he listed still entertain
>>736901345 Yeah that's the part people pretend not to understand. "Fun" isn't always haha dopamine fireworks, it's just your brain getting hooked on a loop. FO4 settlements are basically digital legos for autists. You're not smiling ear to ear, you're in a fugue state wiring up generators for 3 hours because number go up and wall snap good. Same reason people nolife Factorio or Rimworld and look miserable doing it. It's not joy, it's compulsion with extra steps. Still engaging though, which is the entire point. If your brain keeps going "one more thing" the game did its job.
>>736891764If you are corporate marketing, having emotionally retarded slaves who easily emotionally attach to your products, and develop parasocial relationships, and convincing them that their emotional retardation makes them sophisticated and a higher class compared to others to create a closed circuit where self-awareness can never be developed to fix this condition due to pride and hubris, is the best scenario possible to grift and exploit the suckers. It doesn't matter whether it's corporate or indie art, ultimately all of it feeds into corporate marketing when it comes to grooming a class of emotionally attached sheep and suckers, it's the mindset that is vital to marketing, not the categories of where it's applied, because mindset tends to breach containment no matter what.
>>736891764Look at this pleb. He takes "movies" seriously.
>>736891764>>736891764then go make a movie, retardor cry about losing money on your 'it doesnt need to be fun' 'art game' flop
>>736892095its bad prose famous for being edgy af
>>736901693Well obviously, they don't want to be bullied for liking video games just like their peers who got bullied by them for liking video games 20-30 years ago, so the only way to stop that from happening is to assure people that playing video games is socially acceptable and demand to be taken seriously.
>>736891764Who said "fun was a requirement"?
Russians are actually specialists at making very artistic games with gameplay that feels like running sandpaper across your dick.
>>736891816Women stop talking to them in bars when they find out what they do. It's why the game press went to shit in the early 2010s too.
>>736891764All those things are fun. Great art is fun.
>>736897387Modern art it was
>>736902769Except that tbe market wants either toy games like minecraft snd roblox or some online friendslop fotm shit, or these addictive "hardcore" slotmachine games. And those are the vidya /v/ plays the most. Being anti narrative in vidya was edgy and rebelious in 2010.
>>736891764Blood Meridian is fun, yes. Not as fun as Shakespeare, Joyce or Pynchon, but it's an enjoyable read.
>>736891764I do think there's some truth to this. I don't care for video games as art and it's not due to their failing to live up as art but because artsy games tend to fail to live up as games. It's very difficult to have a cohesive vision also be good to play. Like the moment a game is open world it's pretty much surrendering any chance of being a coherent work because everyone is going to be engaging it differently.
>>736903604Movie market wants marvel and book market wants smut, so those media aren't art either? I assume nailing your balls to the pavement is the only thing considered art nowadays.
>>736891764He is right in a sense that "fun" for most modern gamers means just "I dont want to be challenged at any point in this game and NO I REFUSE to play at lower difficulties so you have to make it completely braindead on both normal and hard. And also I want romances and long cutscenes with dialogue choices."
>>736891764The lack of 'fun' is what has ruined television for me. More broadly I'd describe it as 'inspiration' that 'art' is lacking, but fun in games is often a part of that.I hate modern comedy that seeks to wallow in misery and the humiliation of the characters. I hate the 'morally grey' stories that want to tell you that 'life is unfair' where it just piles failure upon us without hope.I want stories with darkness and tragedy and suffering; but where we overcome. Where despite the odds our heroes struggle and fight. Some may die without seeing their vision fulfilled; but their struggle is what inspires and sustains the others unto final victory.We need to be inspired by stories. We need them to inculcate in us the desire to be better than we were. And in video games this often manifests as simple fun. The ability to jump over an obstacle or wander off the beaten path; the developer might not like it because it takes away from his pretty cutscene; but the player feels stronger, the player becomes more curious and indulges a desire to explore, appealing to that greater man within that is not content with what is merely about him, but which must know more. Muscle bound humans in WoW inspired me to do press ups during the loading screens when I was 15. Finding 'broken' combinations of weapons or talents; does this not inspire us to be better in life too? Rarely is 'fun' in a video-game not ultimately inspiring. As such it becomes the key aspect of the art. Regardless of art and my rambling though; the literal purpose of a game is to be fun.And these are video GAMES. Fun comes before everything else.
>>736891764"Fun" or not, making a video game and refusing to make the interactive part something the player wants to engage for one reason or another with is like making a movie and refusing to have visuals, just a black screen with an audiobook read out over it.Even the designated "we don't use the word fun" game TLOU2 made proper use of the interactive element of the medium, and put lots of effort into making the "gamey" parts like combat, exploration and "puzzles" way more frequent than in something like the tv adaptation. Because it's a video game.
and people wonder why western can't make good fighting games
ASS2ASS
>>736891764these people thought video games were stupid and lame in the 2000s and it was a good thing
>>736891764He's right on some level. A good example would be any competitive game. Most people who play those at any serious level will tell you that they don't play for fun, they play for the thrill of competition, improving themselves, and winning.
>>736894621good and engaging are just buzzwords people use when they can't explain what makes the game fun and enjoyable
>software created for sole purpose of providing fun>it shouldn't be fun!
>>736892008Why do people always cut out>the game is a battle. If it's not a battle, where's the fun?
>>736904686Eh I'd argue fun is such an objective thing that it's hard to discuss anything related to it in good faith.If people play for thrill of competition or to improve, it means they're in a way have fun doing this. That's what they enjoy.Fun doesn't equal easy.
>>736891764Rather than just singling out "fun", a better way to phrase it is art needs to be "engaging". There are many ways to be engaging, and the interactive nature of games is an excellent way to do this. Giving someone control of their experience can add tons more meaning for each person. And with this framing, fun is absolutely a valid way to get engagement out of someone. It doesn't have to be the goal, if you would rather engage the player based on certain emotions or themes that's great too, and here the interactive quality of games can still add a lot to the experience. But you can totally have a meaningful experience derived from having fun. All of this shit is valid, and it's stupid to single out only one kind of engagement as good and others as bad.Something like Before Your Eyes, for example, is a perfect example of how an interactive video game can be used to tell a story, deliver themes and emotions, in a very fun way using novel gameplay, that can truly only be properly told in this exact video game format. You wouldn't get any of the impact if you weren't directly in control of the experience. And I had fun playing it too!
>>736904914>If people play for thrill of competition or to improve, it means they're in a way have fun doing this. That's what they enjoy.Most people who play at any serious level will tell you that they aren't having fun most of the time. They're doing it to improve and to win. It's very similar to going to the gym. Most people will not say that them going to the gym is fun, but they enjoy the aspect of improving themselves and the end result of looking and feeling better.
>>736895483I was going to write that
>blood meridian isn't funbut it is
>>736891764He's not even saying anything.If you're interested or entertained then it's fun. "it" here being anything: games, movies, books, knitting, jerking off. Whatever.
>>736891764Case in point.
>>736905337"Reading isn't fun" is a claim mostly said by people new to reading. Or the readers of those dreadful realist novels, I have no idea how people can stand the author droning on about the subtle social faux pas and the intimate psychological profile of a woman engaging in adultery. Osbie Feel stands in the minstrels’ gallery, holding one of the biggest of Pirate’s bananas so that it protrudes out the fly of his striped pajama bottoms—stroking with his other hand the great jaundiced curve in triplets against 4/4 toward the ceiling, he acknowledges dawn with the following: Time to gather your arse up off the floor, (have a bana-na)Brush your teeth and go toddling off to war.Wave your hand to sleepy land,Kiss those dreams away,Tell Miss Grable you’re not able,Not till V-E Day, oh,Ev’rything’ll be grand in Civvie Street (have a bana-na)Bubbly wine and girls wiv lips so sweet—But there’s still the German or two to fight,So show us a smile that’s shiny bright,And then, as we may have suggested once before—Gather yer blooming arse up off the floor!
>>736893163You are 100% objectively a retarded niggerfaggot.
>>736891764Replace fun with entertained. You don't need to have fun with games/movies but it needs to keep you entertained
>>736891764Big if true
>>736891764no but they have to be interactive, otherwise there's no point in them being a game.
>>736905604>"Reading isn't fun" is a claim mostly said by people new to readingLet me expand on that a little bit.>"Art isn't fun" is a claim mostly said by people new to artThere you go. This applies to every artistic medium. The people who have the least contact with art are usually going to be the biggest pseuds about art.Art is simply above them, they don't understand art and they get no joy from it, and so all they can do is romanticize the idea of it.They are never the problem - surely art must be above other people, too. Art must be some impalpable, magical thing that nobody understands.
>>736903408He's not wrong, he just delivered it incorrectly. Concord is an excellent example of qualityslop. Its gameplay was polished, its characters high fidelity, the game ran well. But it was utter dogshit from design standpoint that no one wanted to play because it, because it was revolting to look at due to awful designs, poor colour grading and dysgenic, ugly characters that no one could ever care for.
>>736906339I always thought classical music was gay and lame, I was more into prog and metal. Then I actually learned about the subject and found out that all the greats were innovators, and all the things I enjoyed about prog were ten times as vivid in classical music.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFG70gFbvOg
Why are these people so desperate to take the "game" part out of "videogames" by comparing them to things that aren't games?
>>736891764fun isn't a requirement for a game any more than being enjoyable to watch is a requirement for a movie, or being enjoyable to read is a requirement for a bookit's just something that people shoot for often, for really obvious reasons if you think about it for like 3 seconds
>taken seriouslyvidyagames are children's toys and wanting them to be taken seriously is like wanting pokemon to be taken seriously
>>736891764But they do need to exemplify the strengths of the medium in some way: a film that is shot poorly, or with the lens cap on for half the runtime, is not a good film. A song that cannot be heard is not a good song. A game that does not exemplify the strengths of the medium (interactivity) cannot be considered a great game. Games need to be fun.
>>736892053Based Sunless Sea poster.You're right on the money though anon, these sorts of people don't actually want games to stand out as a separate medium, they just want sad movies where you occasionally get told to press a button.May as well just let them play around in a DVD menu for all its worth.
>>736892375Is this anon posting about fun?
>>736907147Because they don't actually care about games as a medium, they're just failed screenwriters and "ideas guys" who seethe about getting made fun of at parties and hearing a sarcastic "oh that's reeeeally cool man, what's happening with super mario lately haha" when they tell people they work for video games.
>>736891764Who is this and why are you sucking him off?
>>736891764no fun=no buy
>>736891764neck yourself twitter tourist
>>736891764these are the "people" trying to convince you that shit games are deeper than you think
>>736905603It's both not fun and not interesting.
midwit moment
I don't know if being fun and being artistic have to be exclusive of each other
>>736891764why do so many people mistake the word "fun" for "joyful" or "playful" or whatever?I see it all the timeare we reaching a point in general illiteracy where arguments about misinterpretations just pick up like this?
>>736891764This guy is a Neil Druckman glazer, isn't he?
>>736892008>the gameyou son of a bitch
>>736891764Blood Meridian is fun to read, he should have said 2666 or something. I find it odd that millennials always immediately jump to Blood Meridian when they try to talk about literature, is it just because it is so short and easy to digest? They don't have the patience for anything truly dense.
>>736907550>>736907147One of the major problems truly is ego wankingDevs, journos, and influencers are all circlejerking trying to elevate vidya as an artform solely for selfish reasons, they all want to seem more important and by making vidya into "high art" as it is known they seem like less of a joke
Videogames are toys. But toys are art, too. Skateboards? Art in both form and function. The wear and tear on a wooden toy car tells its own story.
>>736891764Shakespeare's plays weren't taken "seriously" when he wrote and staged them. It was all for fun (and money)
>>736891764They made survival horror and puzzle games and mobas
>>736909221Shakespeare would be completely insufferable if all the "fun" was stripped away from his plays. If something, anything, isn't "fun" it most likely fucking sucks. I don't know where this anti-fun iconoclasm came from, all the best movies, books, plays, paintings, etc... are fun. There isn't a single one that isn't "fun" in some way, either grammatically, or cinematographically, or in the way your eyes flow over a canvas, or in the flow of good prose and poetry. It's all fun. If it isn't fun it's bad.
>>736891764Nah gamers bullying should be brought back. The industry has gotten too big and bloated. Not to mention the whales have gotten too comfortable giving away money for mtx and dlcs, they should be bullied and shamed to suicide for that shit.
>most miserable niggas seething all over a threadhow dense you are anons, to not understand that games are not/should not be a single monolyth?some games can be just funsome games can be just artsysome games can be fun and artsy
>>736891764It’s fun because it’s interesting but it doesn’t have to be interesting to be fun. Simple as.
>>736903218middle aged men care much less about what women think than you assume
>>736891764>you're going to tell me that a bunch of [good books] are funYes, faggot. Blood Meridian is better than TLOU. Reading and letting my imagination recreate scenes from a good book in my mind's eye is more entertaining than some trashy Sony game with unskippable walkie-talkie sections.
Guernica IS fun though, it's got a ton of little details and funky shapes that makes looking at it entertaining.
>>736891764Blood Meridian was fun for the Judge.
>>736892053Sunless sea is still fun in its own wayPeople who can't make fun games shouldn't be making games
>>736910397It’s funny when you realize that it was supposed to be a painting about the death of a toreador, and Picasso, realizing just how stupid the UN autoriities are, simply added a lightbulb and a window to pretend it’s actually an interior scene (without bothering to change the main theme of a toreador’s death) and sold this piece of shit for a few million. It was one of Picasso’s biggest scams.
>>736891764>You're telling me requiem for a dream is fun?Well yeah
>>736910828Wait fuck I'm retarded I was thinking of a midsummer nights dream
>>736910397hilarious how goycattle believe this is ""art""
>>736891764Because they grew up with nothing but games, so they expect games to grow up tooThey're manchildren trying to pretend to be adults
>>736891764>Requiem for a Dream>not fun
>>736891764Depends in the context. What example am I given of an interesting game?Fun has practically become a buzzword at this point to describe a game that fits the persons opinion, therefore “fun” is mostly subjective at this point since whats “fun” can vary from person to person.I need to know what type of game he’s creating and judge it based on other games in the same medium.If he’s talking about a game with a good story then that purely depends on whether its a visual novel or not, story is the least important part of any other type of game unless the story interacts with the gameplay in some way.
>>736891816Because they clung onto and made their whole identity about video games and now that they are 40 the only justification they have to not look like retards is to convince people video games are art.They wanna let go of their toys yet cant do it because they would have to admit to themselves they clung onto childhood for far to long.Me, I just like to have fun every now and then, but I understand what games are, Resident Evil is no more different then Madden now with yearly releases.
>>736891764remember anons, when engaging in these sorts of talks it is best to define your terms so that all parties have an understanding of a topic's centering anchors and meanings
>>736893657can we also get the ericschizo while we're at it
>>736910371i would agree with you otherwise but a certain kind of man continues to be self-conscious well into later life. basically everyone within reddit's sphere of influence since those people judge each other so fucking much and need a ton of validation for everything, and the men there specifically have internalized low self worth compared to women
>>736891764>only reference to a book is “Blood Meridian”Holy pseud. BM is fun though. It’s literally a cowboy novel with action filled shoot outs
>>736903218Are you saying this as someone who doesn't have this problem? Who the FUCK are you to talk down to how I live my life?
>>736891764Sounds like a failure to realize the difference between fun and entertaining. It’s all entertainment>taken seriouslyBy who? Niggers? Foidsluts that won’t have your children anyway? Something here is being taken unjustifiably seriously and it ain’t video games
>>736910886Hello pseud gaylord
>>736891764Pretentious artfags thinks that things don't have value without them. Video games keep trucking with or without you.
>>736891764Games should be fun. They also need to have the right amount of challenge to be so.The issue is that people with losers mentality complain anytime anything requires any amount of brain usage.
Do these asshole not understand that you still derive pleasure from something good even if it's making you feel negative emotions? "IT'S NOT FUN TO READ BLOOD MERIDIAN BECAUSE.... BECAUSE IT'S VIOLENT AND DARK AND THOSE THINGS AREN'T FUN OKAY?" Why are they all so retarded?
>>736891764Okay Neil, you need to move overNEXT GUY
Sadness is a form of enjoyment or else no one would watch those films. Same with horror. Thing is, video games are an active experience so you need the gameplay to be enjoyable or else it may as well be a book or film.
>>736891764>Case closed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGI1rk-lMMI
>>736891764>you don't get it bro, Generic Sad Dad Walking Simulator 5 is a masterpiece>You're not doing childish things like... s-s-stomping... koopas...!>It's a genuine reflection on the human condition where a man has to come face to face with the question of "What if my sexy daughter gets bitten by a zombie and I can't protect her?">It's like super dark and serious and gritty and made me cry le manly tears>I am very smart
>muh interactive media products need to be taken seriously by some trash normalfagsSince when has this ever been a valid perspective?
Mother 3 btfo this stupid argument 20 years ago. There's an entire dungeon that's full of the most intentionally unfun mechanics that drags on forever as a joke to make a point about society and how work crushes the human spirit. It's the worst part of the game by far, yet modern game devs look up to it and try to make their games even more shit so they can preach their social commentary.
the "game" part in video games implies fun. It having or not having deep themes has no relation to that. Its like complaining that animation has drawn pictures because cartoons are "inherently childish". Just plain pseud nonsense. These clowns should pick a different hobby
>>736891764Being engaged is what makes anything fun, and engagement does not require happiness.
>>736914021I remember seeing someone frustrated that no one took him seriously when he said Avatar The Last Airbender was considered by him to be the greatest piece of fiction ever made. A lot of cartoon fans are nuts bro
>>736891764Huh, so that's what /v/iggers look like.
>>736894482I think the big issue with that reasoning is that "what is fun" is about as subjective as anything can be. I think any lifelong gaming enthusiast would see that even their own taste over time reflects this. There was a time when I would've said Mass Effect 1 was my favorite game, but now I'm of the opinion that there's more gameplay value in Ninja Gaiden 2's first room or a massive amount of classic Doom levels than in all of the Mass Effect series, which is the game equivalent of treadmill walking to me now vs mountain hiking. There's also the consumerist pressure of saying a game you bought at full price is better than it is, because see I'm having a blast, just to avoid the discomfort of admitting you got scammed by the industry again, which will obviously get worse with increasing prices because the only people with sense will just withhold their money completely.
I still don't understand why anyone who likes vidya cares whether anybody else classes it as art or not
>>736909504Based Vorticism enjoyer. What isn't fun about turning ship camouflage into a giant art project?Also, I think most artists would reject the attitude that Neil Druckmann-types espouse - making art for the sake of the label rather than the practice.
>>736891764he's right, watching aerith die was fun for everyone and that's why ff7 is remembered. we need to change that or something
>>736891764We're not doing this shit again, Groucho. All it did was invite snobs that want social justice and more niggers in games where they don't beling.
i don't want games to be "serious" or taken seriously, and i don't give a fuck what some faggot normies think
>>736892053This. I play Horror Games for a sensation other than fun. I play Puzzle Games like Layton and Baba is You for the brain teasing than for fun. When I play a game like Duskers, it's routine, deliberate, and anxious, rather than fun, and I love it for that. They're games that engage and enthrall, not just entertain.But then yeah it's usually like this anons says>>736895540they instead usually only just care about shit that doesn't have any mechanical engagement at all, instead just being the basest level of an interactive experience
This is just funslop. You only like it because its fun
>>736902026I specified fantasy art so I think he pulled them because it's most applicable to video games like Elden Ring. Corben fucking rules, by the way.His broader point is gay, though. Yes, concessions are made to "framing" when you're free to move in three-dimensional space, but equating that with the impossibility to be aesthetically pleasing is retarded. Real life isn't designed with framing in mind, either, yet photographers seem to have no problem making work.
>>736895483I really wish the well hasn't been poisoned, because yeah, this is true, and greater context around it is this: gamers are unironically way too entitled and narcissistic. They feel every game on the market has to be for them, or is implicitly marketing to them, and whinge WAY too hard about how "oh what a waste they could've been making a game for ME instead."But this has been said by the wrong people in the wrong way over the years while some mechanicsfag games have been eroded into artfag games, so now even just "let people enjoy thing" has become a fucking meme in its own right, and what chances to actually sober up and not be cunts have passed by
>>736891764Fun is not the requirement, entertainment is. Videogames are an entertainment medium. But surpise surprise, most people go to videogames because they are looking for fun (a category of entertainment), and go to movies for other kinds of entertainment. Sure, videogames can be thoughtful and philosophical instead of being fun and you might be able to get an audience for that, but most people will not be interested in a game like that because it's not why they play games.
>>736891764Unc really thinks his shitty walking sim is the next Blood Meridian
>>736896370Viper, you know what to do my man
>>736891764Dude is using a logical fallacy to make a point. The world isn’t black and white. Not all things have to be fun to be enjoyable or good. Emotional responses aren’t fed off fun or unfun. This dude is a troll, a moron, or both. And he/they/it looks super young. Fuck them in their bussy
Some people like visual novels which is fine but if I'm going to sit down and pick up a controller or mouse+keyboard I want to be actively engaged in gameplay.I dont understand how people can sit through visual novels or pure storytelling "games"
>>736891764TRVKE. Horror games aren't fun, they're scary and yet people still enjoy them because being engaging is the most important thing.
>>736891764I remember a time when gamers were DEMANDING that videogames be seen as a legitimate medium for art.But that was over 20 years ago, and now it seems like gamers don't give a fuck about that anymore.what happened?
>>736891967>people keep telling me this series is not supposed to be enjoyed>play it>have a fun time even with the occasional frustration>planning to try a more efficient playthrough in the future
