>>736956880
Every fighting game has some dumb prick who makes it unfun to play, whether it's riddled with infinites or not. Street Fighter 4 is the best one because at any level, it's fun.

>>736957028
all i need

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>>736956880
>New stuff seems to be the best in terms of balance and content
Unironically this is not true. +R has better balance than strive for example and way more singleplayer content. Not saying it to hate on strive or new games in general but the way they simplify things usually leads to a much stricter set of who gets to win at high levels. Anyway, I think +R is the best fighting game.

>>736956880
No youre right. Ive never heard a good argument against it it just comes back to old good new bad with these people, or at best some babble that amounts to Muh atmosphere muh vibe

>>736960443
This. It has kino movement and my personal favorite, the forever kino FRC.

>>736956880
Game design tends to improve overtime but there can be bumps along the way. Sf5 for example, was a bump. Tekken 8 and mk1 to me, seem like bumps. Having said that... these games are all still better than for instance, sfa1 or tekken 4 or mk4 and no one wants to admit that that the general level of quality has improved

People are spoiled by new games and literally dont remember how much worse these games used to be

>>736960921
Really good point. I had kind od talen it for granted that now, we get all these characters and costumes and we dont have to pay for the whole game again when they add content...

But people are gonna bitch because they miss sprites or their whatever mechanic so they can gate keep new players.

>>736960443
I think newer games are more balanced, but it's the kind of balance where there's less incentive to pick a low tier. In the past, picking low tier was more of an interesting option.

Old
>Yeah this character sucks but will do more damage than anyone else in the game if he gets in
>Pick this low tier to absolutely humiliate your opponent
>That low tier randomly counterpicks some super top tier character so there's a reason to pick him
>Some other low tier sucks but no one else plays like this character so I will play them to do unique and fun things

New
>The only reason this character is low tier is because they don't have a move of this property that comes out on this specific frame to punish these specific moves, but they're still almost as good as the better characters
>What makes this low tier play differently from the high tiers? A command grab. Also there's another high tier character with a command grab that plays like them so there's no reason to pick the low tier one anyways.

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>>736956880
>Whats the best fighting game?
All time? Third Strike.
Out of the modern fighters? Pic.

>>736961723
I think it’s in the sense there’s less room for you to outplay higher tiers with lower tiers. For example watch Hotta play Justice and win against even the best Zappas Testaments and Fausts, even if they definitely know the matchup. I’d also say the overall power level still feels more even too. I don’t think it’s just lack of incentive for low tiers, but in new games characters have less tools, movement is worse, and strong moves are more likely to be a “wall” of sorts that blocks off characters with weaker tools. Movement and neutral being worse is another thing because I’d say it’s one of the biggest player skill outlets, so you have more room to outmaneuver people in older games. There’s just more depth and focus on the player themselves I guess.

>>736960443
New games dont tend to be any more balanced, theyre just patched constantly to maintain the illusion of balance. Once they stop patching the games die, so no one notices theyre broken when they die either
>>736961846
3s is an ok game... but its overrated. Not a lot of variety in the roster, mostly a footsies and rushdown game. Parry shits on fundamentals too much. And the balance is legitimately terrible, almost every single major has been won by a chun or yun. 4 took what worked and kept it so i dont see much reason to go back other than hey this plays well on fightcade

>>736961846
this

>>736961846
Do you consider uni2 modern?

>>736961931
It feels like to me, the difference between the game types is that properties are toned down a lot, everything is sanded down to have a specific purpose. Because of that, having moves of certain properties becomes even more important. For example, having a 6f medium in SF6 for the purpose of punishing certain things, the rare moves that are plus on block without DR become more important, that sort of thing didn't feel like it was as big of a deal in older games. And in a way, it's more balanced in the sense that you don't end up with stuff like a 8:2 or worse matchups that old games would have on a regular basis. But since characters are more similar than before, there's no reason not to just pick what's the strongest. It's harder to surprise people or do something outside of the box because of it.

>>736962049
We do live in this shallow muh roll back meme muh graphics era so sf4 is fucked. Someday, someone will make a fightcade equivalent with memeback netcode for 360 games and we will be playing sf4 online again.

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>>736956880
Unironically Strive. 2.0 was the patch that just saved the FGC. The game is so fun now.

>>736963264
I should mention right now, not of all time.

That's Hyper Fighting

>>736963264
Every fg devs needs to take notes on the 2.0 update. In a time of more buffs we must also do more nerfs which somehow fg devs are scared of.

>>736956880
virtua fighter 5 it keeps getting rereleased so it must be good kek

>>736956880
>New stuff seems to be the best in terms of balance and content
Lol, lmao

>>736956880
>How can you prefer games with infinites and tods and banned characters?
That's because most of these "oldfags" don't actually play the old games, they just pretend they do so they get to feel cool online

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>>736963264
Hot take but I actually think Season 4 was a better patch and it only needed the further damage reduction, wallbreak meter penalty, and Wild Assault removal
There are too many universal changes that affect weaker characters more than strong characters, and some character changes are really weird

ie. Hammerfall PRC Pot Buster was crazy good, so instead of adjusting it so Potemkin won't get refunded due to the long animation by pausing meter gain, they outright kill PRC and now PRC mix is universally garbage
So for example now there's almost no reason to not jump Faust's Scarecrow PRC, because the return on the strike side is awful while the command throw still grants a setup

With the reduction in power level/damage or new/adjusted moves, some characters got buffed when they weren't even bad
For example Unika gets a third way to negate projectiles that also lets her either punish them on reaction, or get plus frames at worst. They also cut her midscreen combos short, but she gets more HKD so that's not even a nerf
Ky, Leo and Nago's new moves also just completely patch out what used to be counterplay to the character

Then there's character reworks, which are frankly terrible
HC needed to go, but the way they just made him still cancerous while also removing the hard/niche pressure he could get is incredibly lame, getting a hard lock-on after a couple seconds without needing curse is just as toxic and the new Steady Aim is flat out un-interactive
Likewise, Asuka chucking cubes fullscreen was not fun, but the rework doesn't seem very interesting either

>>736956880
>but old fans seem to really hate them for some reason.
because "OLD GOOD NEW BAD" but really they're just mad newer games are more successful and draws in newer people who don't care for the old junk, while also trying to look cool for ""liking"" the old gamer, +R fags are a peak example of this.

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>>736960443
Based +R enjoyer.

The problem with the classics is that unless you're an autist who has been playing for decades, you'll just get mogged by said autists, so you're stuck playing modern games if you want to play with people your level.

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>>736968341
Play 3rd strike there’s a fuck ton of new players who can barely do a combo. To the point I started checking profiles before challenging again to make sure I wasn’t challenging someone super new.

>>736967554
+R is just really damn good

>>736968657
Yeah those very popular games are an exception, but for example the older GGs are probably way harder to get into as a newfag even if they're better than the current thing.

>>736968752
Yeah those are a bit harder to consistently find low level players but +R usually has a good amount of new players during peak hours if you’re NA. Haven’t tried xrd much but blazblue also has a solid amount of new players.

>>736957028
fpbp

>>736956880
the ultimate version of sf4 is the best fighting game ever made

>>736960443
>+R has better balance than strive for example
Actually deluded lunacy. It's a better game in a lot of ways but balance is absolutely not even close to one of those ways.
>>736967268
Easy, high-reward PRC mix was one of the games' big problems.
>Ky, Leo and Nago's new moves also just completely patch out what used to be counterplay to the character
Ky's lightning strike is a complete meme in terms of actually catching intentional counterplay, it just means that throwing out stun edge in neutral isn't a death sentence against someone asleep at the wheel. Honestly the bigger change for it is the "kara" (no clue why everyone's calling it that but whatever) options giving him a lot of cool shit like reversal safe CSE oki or hit confirming into sacred edge.

>>736969598
It's not even the best version of SF4

>>736970597
I think people just see Zappa or something and think he’s impossible to beat like early HC or Luke but the gap between top and low tier in +R when both players know the game is much smaller than newer games.

>>736970597
>Easy, high-reward PRC mix was one of the games' big problems.
I kinda agree, but it wasn't identical across the cast which is why I don't like that their answer is a system nerf
And they still nerfed parts of those PRC mixes, eg. Sol can't do jP>jP from Bandit, Hammerfall now always loses to lows
Again back to Scarecrow PRC, you wouldn't see Fausts rob that many rounds from doing it
People are just going to switch to universally doing drift BRC mixes now and the game's going to look more homogenized

>Ky's lightning strike is a complete meme in terms of actually catching intentional counterplay
It makes his counter-zoning even more powerful since he gets a knockdown when he already didn't need more counter zoning options
Previously if you caught the startup of a poke/projectile with Stun Edge, you wouldn't get much, but it could let you condition your opponent, now he gets a better reward off his fireball than most zoners
Air Fireballs are now unusable against him when they used to cover against both Stun Edge and Stun Dipper (he could just run up 6P, IAD jS or Foudre Arc against this)

Catching jumps/air dashes seems a little gimmicky/difficult, but it's still a possibility
Overall it is an insane addition to a character that already was solid

>Honestly the bigger change for it is the "kara" (no clue why everyone's calling it that but whatever) options giving him a lot of cool shit like reversal safe CSE oki or hit confirming into sacred edge.
It is a real kara cancel, every special can be canceled into supers for the first three(?) frames, this is also how Chipp's rekka into super works
I think you could already reaction PRC after some super flashes anyway?
Not too annoyed by this, if he's knocked you down charging CSE with 50 meter on his side, you fucked up

>>736972228
>like early HC or Luke
Those two aren't even on the same planet.
>but the gap between top and low tier in +R when both players know the game is much smaller than newer games.
This just isn't true, and I'm fairly sure it's because you think newer games are massively, MASSIVELY more unbalanced than they are. Luke for example has genuinely never been more than a bit better than average in SF5 or 6, and his dominant period in 5 was just from being a *little* bit better in every category than other characters. Strive also has been consistently very balanced from S2 onwards (outside of HC being absurdly retarded), with the vast majority of the roster regularly seeing top 8 finishes which you just don't get in most games, especially old games.

>>736972406
>I kinda agree, but it wasn't identical across the cast which is why I don't like that their answer is a system nerf
It wasn't identical but it wasn't like it was only one or two characters that had it, it was FAIRLY consistent so a system nerf makes the most sense to bring people in line. Especially because there wasn't much way to hit it on a per-character basis without breaking stuff entirely.
>It makes his counter-zoning even more powerful since he gets a knockdown when he already didn't need more counter zoning options
He really did, zoning matchups have been some of his worst for a lot of the game's lifespan. Especially given Stun Edge was borderline useless in a lot of those matchups due to it having like, the lowest projectile priority in the game.
>Air Fireballs are now unusable against him when they used to cover against both Stun Edge and Stun Dipper
What air fireballs are we talking about here? I've not fought Bedman since the patch but Elphelt's will still reliably win by hitting Ky first unless she does it a decent bit later than him, which isn't unfair.
>Catching jumps/air dashes seems a little gimmicky/difficult, but it's still a possibility
If they're already in the air it's basically prediction and if you fuck up you're CH punishable for the next year so the risk/reward isn't amazing.
>Overall it is an insane addition to a character that already was solid
He definitely needed something to make his projectile game not entirely linear, and Ky pretty unambiguously was nerfed overall.
>f.S/2S change is brutal and leaves him with no long ranged normals that are above average in any way except 6H, despite that being his whole identity
>scaling hit on stun dipper is brutal since it was so important to him
>hit by PRC nerf both in foudre mix and on people jumping stun dipper
>one of the most hurt by WA removal

>It is a real kara cancel
It's not even cancelling the startup of a special, you hit the buttons on the same frame, or only press one

>>736973735
>He really did, zoning matchups have been some of his worst for a lot of the game's lifespan. Especially given Stun Edge was borderline useless in a lot of those matchups due to it having like, the lowest projectile priority in the game.
You have a good dash block with great buttons
Stun Dipper goes under most projectiles
Foudre Arc goes over other projectiles
He was one of the more difficult characters to zone out
>What air fireballs are we talking about here?
Bedman/Testament/Asuka/Venom
The counterplay to Elphelt has always been to just run in her face and counterhit her since the projectile stalls
>If they're already in the air it's basically prediction and if you fuck up you're CH punishable for the next year so the risk/reward isn't amazing.
It's still an option
Any other zoner is screwed if their fireball gets jumped, why does Ky get to have an option that can bail himself out?
>He definitely needed something to make his projectile game not entirely linear,
You are responsible for your fireball game being linear
He's got plenty of options to play footsies on top of his fireball
>f.S/2S change is brutal and leaves him with no long ranged normals that are above average in any way except 6H, despite that being his whole identity
What the fuck are you on, they're still insane pokes, they're just whiff punishable now
>scaling hit on stun dipper is brutal since it was so important to him
Yolo stun dipper shouldn't be his gameplan and it's frankly deserved
>hit by PRC nerf both in foudre mix and on people jumping stun dipper
Yeah generally I don't like the PRC nerf
>one of the most hurt by WA removal
Get real lmao, they gave him consistent combos into stun dipper and HKD on Shock State in the previous patch
There are characters far more affected by the removal of WA

>>736968752
R+ is probably easier to get into for casuals than Strive because of all the single player modes.

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>>736956880

>>736974785
>He was one of the more difficult characters to zone out
He's difficult to zone out but his actual close range pressure has never been great so getting in matters a lot less.
But those characters usually stopped him doing well in the midrange where he's usually best, making the overall matchup fairly decent.
>Any other zoner is screwed if their fireball gets jumped, why does Ky get to have an option that can bail himself out?
"Any other zoner" has generally more options with their projectiles overall, certainly before lightning strike
>You are responsible for your fireball game being linear
Do you live in a world where Ky players were actually using stun edge outside of blockstrings or something?
>What the fuck are you on, they're still insane pokes
???
Actually look at them, man. f.S is subpar in every aspect except being 10f instead of 11f. It's very short and very minus.
2S has alright range but is fairly average overall.
Being so minus also means you basically have to cancel them now instead of being able to apply any sort of midrange pressure.
>Yolo stun dipper shouldn't be his gameplan and it's frankly deserved
Yes, obviously. It was well overdue, but it does make him a LOT weaker.

>>736956880
certainly, none of those in the picture

>>736973005
>just don't get in most games, especially old games.
I’m actually arguing the opposite here because you can see and always could see people winning competitive +R tournaments with any character except maybe Bridget. Venom, Robo Ky, and Justice all saw success. Hotta beats the best players of top tier characters regularly and sweeps tournaments while using Justice. Luke was ridiculous in early 6 but mostly because he was simply directly better. HC was near game breaking. But Zappa and Testament and Baiken and Faust and Dizzy are not nearly as far from the rest as those two were at their peak in their games.

>>736977672
>Luke was ridiculous in early 6 but mostly because he was simply directly better.
Luke has never even been top 1 in SF6 what the fuck are you on about?
Launch SF6 was JP and Ken all day long.

>>736977752
JP Is one of those characters where I have no idea what the fuck they were thinking.
>Let's give this projectile zoner great, disjointed normals, a setplay hell level 2, and a counter that's basically just a DP except it starts combos and lets him side swap so if you were cornering him, now he's cornered you
I swear to god every time this shit happens, every time there's some annoying cancer top tier, it's a zoner. It's always the fucking zoners. I don't know why all these fighting game devs have a god damn boner for this shit.

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SHOBU JA!

>>736977752
I feel like I remember him being even better though? I did play around that time but maybe I’m misremembering. My point remains the same though, you’re able to get a low tier in +R into the top 8 or top 1 in tournaments a lot more freely than in modern fighting games.

>>736978015
I don't think that's much of a pattern. Most of the time devs don't also give their zoners the best defense in the game like JP.
If you're thinking of HC, he really wasn't much of a zoner at all until the reload cancelling tech was properly worked out months after launch, and what made him so absurdly, comically broken was never even that, it was regular shots.
>>736978087
He wasn't BAD but definitely worse than Ken.
>you’re able to get a low tier in +R into the top 8 or top 1 in tournaments a lot more freely than in modern fighting games
Only to the extent that there's nobody playing the game particularly seriously anymore. People had started saying the same thing about 3rd Strike but when it came to Evo the entire top 8 was Chun/Yun/Ken barring one Hugo.

The biggest insult to SF6 zoning was nerfing every classic fireball into the ground, then making JP who gets to play zoning AND rushdown well.

Yes, I know Capcom's war on fireballs started with SFV

>>736956880
Despite the flaws of both games Strive and SF6 are really good.

>>736978809
SF6 is "good" if you pretend it's not a Street Fighter game. Nothing about the drive system plays like a Street Fighter game, but rather some SNK Arcsys hybrid mutant. Strive made some very, VERY controversial decisions, but it still keeps its identity thanks to the one thing the game didn't fuck with - the roman cancels. Hell, they're actually a step in the right direction compared to Xrd's yrcfest.

>>736978341
Maybe I just misremembered about Luke then. But still, it’s definitely not from lack of skilled players. Both because players have always been able to win in it with low tiers and because many of the top players I mentioned have been playing since well before +R, and many of them play with as much if not significantly more experience than anyone in modern games because the modern games change so much with updates. I don’t hate strive, I should say that again, but I don’t think players like umisho and leffen would be seen winning tournaments in it. And I don’t think anyone in the game is as strong as peak HC or Potemkin in strive.

>>736978341
>>736979046
I should say actually, maybe it’s wrong to say all old games are more balanced, but +R is definitely well balanced and I don’t believe any modern fighter will reach that point, and I wouldn’t say newer games tend to be more balanced than most (competitively played) old games. Not a great discredit to them either considering how long +R was in the making.

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>>736978015
His zoning and setplay are fine, you can see similar characters in other games and they're only top tier if they have some truly broken shit to go along with it
Amnesia is not fine, this shit would still be broken in an anime game

The problem with his disjoints is Drive Rush
The reward on hit becomes absurd from the a cancel
But it also means he is able to Drive Rush at you and beat your drive rush check just from unfortunate hitbox interactions
His character is also built on the idea that you have to drive rush at him to beat Ghost/Portal setup, but the disjoints completely make up for it

And then for whatever reason, he also has a lot of extra shit, like his +2 on block 5HK and its target combo, the high/low target combo, fucking SA2, his two different sweeps that can be hard to punish

It's pretty clear Capcom wants certain characters to be good

>>736978809
>>736979041
>it still keeps its identity
Strive 2.0 is unironically back to basics.

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OP is asking
>Whats the best fighting game?
Yet nobody said
>The Last Blade 2
Grim times.

>>736962260
Is it really modern when it's a 2015 (2012) game that's been receiving a decade of updates?

Reminder that +R is a glorified community rebalance patch that was a response to the previous definitive edition of XX, Accent Core. That edition, unlike +R, was an unbalanced mess, and remained that way for many years. It's a miracle +R was even greenlit to begin with considering Xrd was already well into development if not out in arcades.

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>>736981561
That's what makes it a miracle. Imagine 3S got a final tweaking when SF4 was on the way. Not only that, but they let the community fix the netcode and add features and made it one of the best pre-HD fighters you can still play.

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2xko went and killed their online tournaments due to incompetence

>>736982823
Damn. That was cool.

>>736981561
they should do another rebalance patch and also redraw the sprites in HD
i would pay for that
they added rollback to the game so it's not like they're afraid of it stealing players from strive or tokon

>>736956880
retarded

>>736957028
i did higest rank in arcade mode on highest difficulty with Jin and Lee
but man its tough. especially on characters you arent good with. at least its fun to play on keyboard. put those buttons on num pad and its smooth sailing.

anyway fk Tekken 8 fk SF6 and fk tranny gear strive. what a shitty generation