>>737028798
Because indiedevs generally speaking don't know how to write stories, characters or anything to be honest.

you need to actually have a compelling story to get away with an RPG
rare to have gameplay so good as to overlook a boring story
we talk about final fantasy all the time but you don't really see us talking about how great the 4 niggas in a row gameplay was

What are you talkin about there's hundreds of RPGMaker games out there that play it straight.

menu based rpgs aren't as good at storytelling as visual novels and aren't as good at gameplay as genres like metroidvanias, they just aren't very well liked these days

>>737028798
You really gonna ignore Crystal Project?

>>737028798
the big secret to RPGs is not getting bogged down with grinding and I feel like every indie rpg fails at that. They always have slow ass menu combat so you drop them in the first 2 hours

>>737028798
>FF vibes
Because FF is garbage? Like seriously, its just weeb bait.

Gay as fuck settings
Gay as fuck characters
Just lame shit in general, none of them take any risks

>>737028798
Not sure honestly, because the indie metroid clones aren't very good.

The fact that you've called them "soulful" suggests that you (another others) are just being manipulated by nostalgia, because in terms of level design and gameplay none of them are as good as wonderboy 3 or metroid 3.

>>737029930
>another others
I meant *and others

>>737028798
Every time I try playing an indie RPG it ALWAYS has a very cringe and lame story usually with some reddit humor thrown in. It always takes me out of the story and makes me drop the games. Indie RPGs completely lack the sense of taking themselves seriously that the big name games have.

With Metroidvanias, most of them barely even bother with a story and just do "forgive me zanzibart" style lore drops in the background which are much easier to just ignore

>>737030065
>a very cringe and lame story usually with some reddit humor thrown
that describes Dragon Quest...

>>737028923
There are a lot of Final Fantasy games that have fun combat. I'd say 1-10 at least had good gameplay for when they came out, and some of those are timeless classics. Indie RPG clones don't take enough from Final Fantasy.

>>737030065
ARPG
But check out no rest for the wicked

>>737030065
>Every time I try playing an indie RPG it ALWAYS has a very cringe and lame story usually with some reddit humor thrown in
I love jrpgs but that describes basically every all of them

>>737028798
Chained Echoes feels like a mixture/ripoff of a lot of JRPGs but FF isn't one that came to mind when I played it.

>>737030260
You sound poor AF and an incel spree shooter. You just stopped playing them after 10, I bet you didn’t even play any of lightnings games probably because you’re like a rat person who can’t buy anything or touch any girls lololol you’re so fucking shit at life. Your life sucks compared to me. I’m an amazing person whose good looking as can be and my mom just buys me final fantasy whenever I ask for one. You’ll be wiping my shit up from the mart stall you fucking rat while your wife is fucking tyrone. Just suicide

Chained Echoes was pretty good. Sea of Stars was horrible. However, the best indie JRPG is Crystal Project, and it's not close.

>>737029060
this. Monster Girl Quest Paradox is better than any FF game released in the last 20 years.

>>737028798
It's hard to have good turn based gameplay when most westerners have never played anything but braindead final fantasy games

>>737028798
Metroidvanias are a genre and you're comparing them just to jrpgs with a FF 'vibe', it's a retarded question. There's a lot of jrpgs and metroidvanias.

>>737028798
>Final Fantasy-likes
You mean...JRPGs?

Most indie devs aren't good writers and that's a sorta important part of an RPG

Roguelites are easier to make and they are arguably the evolution of an RPG for the modern adhd brain. It contains all the slot machine gambling, numbers, equipment, leveling up etc without making you sit through 30 hours of screen transitions. Not that they are a respectable genre in the least

Pokemon is probably the most sold several African Americans picking cotton for their masters in a field row combat game. It’s actually not that hard to beat a Pokemon game though. If you want a more hardcore classic styled three nigerians smoking crack to solve their issues and sprinting down the street at midnight after stealing wine game try final fantasy. It’s a bit less known compared to pokemon, but it’s way more challenging. I think one of the best negro whipping sims is the fire emblem series, this one’s way more common than final fighter though and you’ve probably played this nigger whipper game loads of times while thinking about colonial monopoly.

>>737031356
Yeah they hate making roguelikes for some reason. Theres like not even one roguelike, nigger and negro souls isnt really a roguelike it’s more like a rogue light with Zelda elements. True roguelikes are cool as fuck in theory, but it’s lacking like a $600 million dollar investment for polygons.

Theres crystal project you know? That being said i feel like people tried and then we ended up getting something mediocre like i am setsuna. You will see people try to be the next E33 now so you get your wave of mediocre jrpg written by a lesbian landwhale.

I'd say there are too many indie metroidvania but not enough good ones - devs really love to force hk/fromsoft mechanics after all.

>>737028798
Reminder that Sea of Stars is troon trash. They could have left politics out but they didn't.

>>737028798
because FF is only passable as a franchise due to the enormous budgets the games receive that allows them to have gorgeous graphics, cutscenes, music, characters, etc. that stuff can't be replicated by a small team.

the stories aren't even good in FF it's just that the delivery lands the right emotional beats which only Undertale and maybe LISA have ever been able to do in the indie scene.

>>737031289
No.
Rag tag group from different walks of life team up, globetrot through fantasy world consisting of many different unique biomes and locations in order to defeat a big bad. A bit of romance between MC and main heirone. Gameplay is 3-5 niggas in a row with command-battles. FF9 is basically the embodiment of what I what I consider to be Final Fantasy.

Persona games are JRPGs (and for a lot of people at this point, probably the quintessential JRPGs), but aren't much like that what I described.

>>737028798
Picrel is why I don't play western "J"RPGs anymore.

>>737030803
Trying too hard nigger go back to pleddit

>>737032287
Keep guapping it up while you kick rocks poor, my mom buys me RMT cash shop cards and I get to also have sex once a week. Your life will be completed without any platinum trophies. Ahahahaha lmaoing at you aha haha hahahaha hahaha. Hahahahahahaha.

>>737028798
are you just not looking? There are dozens of quality FF likes on steam. They don't sell often, but they exist in quality

>>737028798
Nobody knows how to genuine anymore desu.
Every indie game I see has to have quirky millennial writing "haha, we're not too serious" humor. You see it leaking in anime now too. Everything has to be based off a certain meta trope that anime or games do.

>>737028798
Sea of Stars sucked

>>737032287
>Can't even detect the most obvious pasta
ngmi.

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>>737030803
Why was this typed in?

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>>737028923
>rare to have gameplay so good as to overlook a boring story
It's been known to happen.

>>737033919
>Is there any way to save her? Nope
Not playing that garbage. Pre-dropped.

Are there any Indy crystal chronical ripoffs?
I'd pay a mint for that

>>737028798
Try Quartet then, nibba https://store.steampowered.com/app/1307960/Quartet/

>>737028798
>Why did indie metroidvanias take off, but indie Final Fantasy-likes never did?
Because Final Fantasy and other story heavy JRPGs are dead.

>>737028798
>but indie Final Fantasy-likes never did?
There are tons of RPGmaker games, anon.

>>737028798
I wouldn't call Sea of Stars a Final Fantasy-like, or agree that it has FF "vibes". It's trying hard to be Chrono Trigger than anything else. I would call it a JRPG-like though. Just not a good one.

>>737029292
>menu based rpgs aren't as good at storytelling as visual novels
They're better, because they have some cinematic sensibilities to them and they don't ramble on for five years to excruciatingly explain every passing thought of the protagonist.

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>>737029930
>just being manipulated by nostalgia
saying something is "just nostalgia" is an oxymoron because most things are so unnoteworthy that you don't even remember experiencing them, much less develop nostalgic feelings for them. so its actually not as easy to dismiss as that. and anyway it's not even an argument, because nostalgia is a Sublime emotion, hence the need for nebulous terms like "soulful" to capture that ineffable je ne sais quoi.

plus it's kind of a lol that you mention "metroid 3" as a counterexample when it's in that same boat. apparently you can be nostalgic for things that are good, so implying someone only thinks something is good "because of nostalgia" is cope.

>>737028798
I think you might consider supply and demand. There has never been a shortage of JRPGs. But Metroid and Castlevania were both on hiatus in the 2010s, which is when Indie Metroidvanias had their boom and filled that demand gap in the market. So now the market is flooded with them. Plus RPGMaker has existed for a long time and most of those games are shovelware.

>>737029930
>The fact that you've called them "soulful" suggests that you (another others) are just being manipulated by nostalgia
It only suggests that to people incapable of comprehending soul.

>>737028798
>but indie Final Fantasy-likes never did?
E33 is a massive success though?
No but seriously. Few indie RPGs are actually anything like FF.
The biggest FF-like indie success I can think of Crystal Project, and it's like an FF5 or FF3 FF-game but with an even more minimalistic approach to story than even those games. So it isn't that representative of the FF-style anyway.
But Sea of Stars, while having plenty of merits on its own, is not like FF. It isn't like Chrono Trigger either though and I don't get why there are one million games media articles claiming that it is.


But if there were actually more FF-like indie RPGs I bet they'd be rather successful. It's a niche of RPGs that have been undersaturated and the fans have been wanting more.
Indie or not, unironically, E33 was a massive success because this audience still exists and is still hungry.

>>737029673
womp womp sorry troon you lost

>>737028798
Metroidvanias are inherently pretty fun. Jrpgs are complete dogshit and only appealing to nostalgic millenials/gen x. If you're a good enough writer to make a jrpg compelling you're better served just making a VN and if you want to make a real game you make an srpg.

>>737038142
>Jrpgs are complete dogshit and only appealing to nostalgic millenials/gen x.
Basically "I don't personally like it so I'm going to dismiss it as nostalgia". Okay, when did the nostalgia begin? If nostalgia is the only reason, and there's nothing of actual merit, how did that nostalgia get formed in the first place?
I didn't even like JRPGs to begin with. Why would I be nostalgic about them at all if they hadn't given me a good reason to change my mind?
>If you're a good enough writer to make a jrpg compelling you're better served just making a VN
If JRPGs are dogshit, VNs are 10x worse. SRPGs are slow as fuck and often have very little in the way of actual strategy.
Maybe it's you who's blinded by nostalgia.

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>>737028798
>indie dev tries to write a story
>cant help but add modern day politics into it or make it about mental health

>>737029508
play Andrew's game!

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>>737028798
most are legend of mana or chrono trigger-likes. few final fantasy likes. this one I played recently is pretty fun though

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>>737028798
Metroidvania are action games and AAA devs release them once a decade.
FF are glorified novels. No one is going to read your ultra dupa supa deep story and no one is playing FF for the combat mechanics. you won't find many ppl sitting thru it for 10 hours till your unique take on round based combat gets unlocked.

>>737038616
Final Fantasy was very popular before they destroyed it, and now E33 is.
So yes, people are going to play them.

>>737028798
Because they are shit. Form today's perspective, metroidvania are actual games. A mix of platformer, rpg, arcade and roegue~, souls~.

>>737038685
E33 had cinema story from the getgo and made it clear in the tutorial that you need to be active in combat. It's nothing like classic pixel FF

>>737038823
>E33 had cinema story from the getgo
So does Final Fantasy, and you'd know that if you'd actually played any before weighing in.
E33 is Final Fantasy with QTEs added.

>>737038792
>A mix of platformer, rpg, arcade and roegue~, souls~.
That sounds like a fucking mess.

>>737032503
dam dude you are lucky my mom only puts out once a month

>>737028798
You need to not be a sex-averse tranny goy to write a good story

>>737028798
The OP pic really sums it up. Because it's just a straight mystery dungeon rip. No creativity, that's why the RPGs are shit

>x-like
>Y-like
>z-like
>Most often, the game being used as an descriptor would be considered a X-like as well
Ran out of Latinx slang?

>>737038934
Are we talking about 1-6? because when it's about "Metroidvania" the topic is mostly about 2D and not their 3D titles. Even the loved FF6 is fucking slow. E33 is more like FF7 giving you options to play however you want with pictos from giving you damage boost for anything even taking damage for missing QTE
Classic FF combat is shit.

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Writing a compelling story is much harder than creating solidly fun gameplay systems and building a world that feels just good to explore and conquer. So when a dev puts up front their eggs in the story basket to the detriment of the other game elements is a net loss for my interest in the game.

Gameplay-centric RPGs with interesting enough world and locations design is more than enough. Captivating story would definitely be a bonus but is not necessary. That said, here are some gameplay-centric indie RPGs I've enjoyed lately:
>UFO50's Grimstone
>Rad Codex's games: Voidspire Tactics, Alvora Tactics, Horizon's Gate
>Look Outside
>Crystal Project
>SKALD: Against the Black Priory

>>737028798
RPGs require a lot more art and balancing one requires a math degree. There is also the question of what do you want to do that hasn't been done.

>>737028923
Story can only ever detract from a game, rpgs included. If it ever does something the player wouldn't, it's a negative. Storyfags are exactly why jrpg is a dead genre now.

>>737028798
Sea of Shit // Sea of Shills is worse than the worst FF game so that's probably why it didn't do well. Also nigger protag and fag cook/third wheel party member.

>>737039320
They're all FF games. All of them count for the purposes of "Final Fantasy-likes", up until they stopped being Final Fantasy entirely, which is somewhere between 10 and 15 depending on who you ask.
FF6's combat is very fast actually. The NES games are slow, the first two SNES ones are pretty fast overall, and 6 is quicker than 7, 8 and especially 9.
The combat in these games isn't particularly challenging or strategic outside of some bosses, but they move along quickly and feature engaging customization to make up for it.

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>>737029508
Played it on hard. Absolutely do not recommend. Maybe it's enjoyable on normal.
Best jrpg of the last 20 years are Rance Quest, Enchant Farm, Black Souls and Sequel Blight.
Final Fantasy 15 is the worst game ever created.

So, anyone play Grime 2? The first one had some autistic 'hard mode hack' type fuckery. First boss in 2 is already annoying as fuck and one attempt at second made me go play something else.

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I love how the best stories in JRPGs are basically hero's jorney, about a farm boy who goes from a starting village who gets destroyed, then have to learn about a big awakening demon lord that he has to stop, then starts a journey to go into diferent towns to get diferent keys to open the final monastery doors where the final gear that can destroy the demon lord exist. Also, he founds a mini villain type mini arc in each town, where he has to fugg the town waifu, usign his clearly not a D&D cast of elf blonde who happens to be an archer, a dwarf that is a technician or tank, a white healer and a black mage.

It's so fucking funny to hear in this thread how "dificult" are JRPG stories to write.

>>737032232
Persona is a VN with calendar management. The jrpg component is less than 1/4 of the game.

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>>737033919

>>737034451
She is a gimmick character that evades nearly everything but dies in one hit. There are no story implications or tragedy. The game story is entirely in the jpeg.

>>737034505
Just play mana games? Do you want the retarded chalice part or having to redo levels over and over?

>>737034451
by "save her" they mean fix her shedinja stats. revives work in story so her demise is about as tragic as kenny from south park

>>737039569
You set dialogue speed on the start screen of the NES games.

>>737039809
It's the perfect genre for an adventure story light on big overarching plot complexity but stacked deep with fun, compelling characters that bounce off each other in entertaining ways that you can't quite get as easily in an action game focused mostly on one character. Considering how many of them still tend to be kinda shit despite that I think it might be on the more difficult side.

>>737040286
And they're still slow. Mostly because you're fighting large groups, can't rely on automatic retargeting after one dies, and can't rely on AOE spells as much.

>>737040319
because most people pretend they can write because they can type coherent shit on they keyboard.

Videogame writing is a joke compared to literature or cinema.

>>737039809
You can't name a single jrpg with an elf and a dwarf never mind them being party members or the archer and tank thing.

>>737039809
The actual plot is secondary in JRPG (and jap games as a whole). It's all about characters. And it's apparently hard for the average indie dev to write likeable characters. Probably because they themselves are unlikable people.

>>737039809
Much like many things, it is not difficult to do, but it is difficult to do well. How easy do you think it is to tell that story in an interesting and fresh way?

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>>737040419
>>737040427
>>737040434
>anime writing is dificult when is 99.9% template and genre architetypes, deres and standart thematic episodes like the japanese bath episode

>>737040501
Yes, difficult to do well, like I said.
You yourself are implying it's incredibly generic. So it stands to reason, if you're not stupid, that wrenching something good from that template requires ability.

>>737040580
dificult to do well, is like claiming that drawing anime tits and cunny is dificult to do well.

It all boils down to practice and study.

>>737028798
One genre is an actual game
The FF and its clones are not engaging in any way or form. >>>/tv/
go there

>>737040501
All writing is 99.9% templates and genre archetypes.

>>737039569
The point here is you can see the greatness and do a lot in Metroidvania games from the early stages. In FF it takes you hours to unlock normal play. I'm not saying they are bad games but it takes a long time to get absorbed into them.
You can't possible compare 10 to 8 to 7 to 6 or less. I don't even know where to begin. 10 didn't have stats equiptment. 8 had the fucking draw system and you couldn't even buy weapons.
The reason undertale, lb, corpse party and other indi rpgs got their fame is because of social media exploits and not because of their mechanics you unlock 10 hours into the game like a square game.

>>737040621
A writing teacher once said, that storytelling is like cooking, where there's no new ingredients, and the recipes already exist for most dishes.

But you still have a freedom of like picking he cooking oil, the type of salt, if use paprika or ketchup for a basic omelett.

In the end writing is about characters going throught trials againts a big villain.

I think the best stories are by example grounded on realism, mythology and history, over following anime dere tropes.

>>737040609
>It all boils down to practice and study.
Which means there is skill involved.

>>737040782
yes, but people just assume is magic shit.

What I don't like is the notion of divine talent some people have.

>>737038961
Hollow knight is a famous metroidvania and widely as one of the best games ever recognised. Plenty of goat games are metroidvania, maybe even more than in any other genre.
Unfortunately there's no rpg in metroidvania style.

>autistic gooner keeps posting and shilling the garbage rpgmaker game with porn pretending it's some sort of masterpiece

Lmao

I don't remember how this indie RPG was called but it was just constant references to FF6 and Chrono Trigger (there was a festival where you play minigames, the party split up, one of the bosses was the phantom train)
It was incredibly stupid, if your game has just to be memberberries you can go fuck yourself

>>737040501
Slime girl isekai was appealing but when they went timetravel and shit i noped out.
>You either die a hero or you live long enough to become the villain
I love the series I read but they all go to shit because they don't want to end and just keep going.
Free Money glitch

>>737030726
>>737041234
Chained Echoes!
Also fuck Evoland whose hero is named Clink because the game is just a fusion of Final Fantasy 7 and Zelda (CLoud + LINK)

>>737029930
based wb3 enjoyer

>>737040652
>In FF it takes you hours to unlock normal play.
A lot of games do this, but I don't think FF is really that bad about it. Especially compared to recent Persona games.
But let's see:
>NES games throw you right into it
>FF4 just has the castle section and the scrolling intro text
>FF5 is also quick unless you count getting ALL the crystals)
>FF6 does take a fair while to unlock espers and even longer to unlock freedom
>FF7 has you stuck in Midgar for a long time
>FF8 has a pretty long intro segment
>FF9's intro is even worse, with a lot of character switching
>10 is kind of slow
>12 seems not so bad (haven't played it much), >13 is fucking excruciating
Okay, so it's a fairly even spread of slow vs quick starts, but it's still not too bad.
>and not because of their mechanics you unlock 10 hours into the game like a square game.
That's overselling it a bit. The opening hours are engaging enough to make it work, and the mechanics are usually introduced earlier than you say. I think the bigger problem is that the games are too easy for the mechanics to really matter much.
>10 didn't have stats equiptment
It did. You could get % stat boosts on weapons and armor.
>8 had the fucking draw system and oyu couldn't even buy weapons.
Both good points. I found junctioning fun, but it did have a lot of busywork attached. It was annoying that you had to babysit it and rejunction so often, and it flat out sucked how characters without STR-J were so weak at attacking.

>>737039338
Get a professional writer, they are cheaper than ever.

>>737040810
With all the best art, it is clear that it was pure luck that exists in spite of the creator. They then go on to hate their audience for their undeserved success.
In other cases it is simply someone producing a mountain of shit until some of it is good and then the popularity of that popularizes more and more of the shit building on itself; like Stephen King.

>>737040810
Fair point.
Natural aptitude does exist and can make a difference, but practice and study wins out every time.

>>737040963
There are jrpgs with tool based area traversal. Two of the greatest of all time even, Lufia 2 and Wild Arms.

>>737028923
bold of you to assume most smt/ff had a good story or gameplay lol. In fact whatever bullshit indies are cooking is usually heads better than any random one of those.

>>737028923
The first 6 final fantasy all had incredibly mediocre and barebones story whereas OP games blow them out of proportion

>>737034451
>he doesn't know
Get a load of this retard who thinks she's some frail little girl in need of saving.

>>737040963
Hollow Knight tried to be too many things, and it suffered for it. It was still a good game, but definitely flawed.

>>737028923
Not true at all. Etrian odysessy has the most basic story of all time, but the dungeon exploring and skill progression is fun so it's fun.
They trued adding story in the untold series and there was backlash because half the fun is headcannon between your characters. I even liked the untolds desu, but I also enjoy making my own stories just as much.

>>737039482
Yeah... There's a reason souls like storytelling is a thing. You mentioned one of the reasons
All in all I'd say it's better to have a good atoey than a bad story. Ofc a bad story can be cheesy and eventually gather a cult following. You never know.

>>737041234
It's hard to take indie homages seriously when they don't even try to have their own identity. It also doesn't help when they misunderstand what they're paying tribute to.
It's a weird mix of arrogance in thinking they can emulate or improve on something, but also worshipping that thing too much to just go in their own direction.

Can someone please explain to me what makes sea of stars "like chrono trigger"?
They seem very different to me. In both gameplay, narrative, game progression, and characters.

>>737041648
Indies have like references of 100 games.

>>737039574
>getting filtered by Crystal Project
Anon there's almost zero RNG in the game. Anything you're struggling with is entirely on you for not being able to figure out a way around it.

>>737041712
Just shows how important rng is

>>737028798
My problem with Sea of Stars is that every single move requiring a bespoke bing bing wahoo timing minigame really really quickly got tedious.
Just keep it to a simple QTE if you wanna make combat a bit more active.

>>737028798
Play Wooden Ocean

>>737041481
FF5 unlocks are not quick. You can't jobchange unless the story allows you to. In theory FF5 jobchanges are great so is FFTA or FFX-2
FF6 what do you mean it's slow to unlock esper. I quit the game 3 times before i even got the samurai. The story is fine but i want to play a game, if i want to read a novel i read a novel. They throw you around all the time you don't know who even the MC is. I just want a party and kill goblins in a dungeon is this too much to ask for?

>>737038934
>mash X to auto battle
Final Fantasy when it's action slop is horrible. At least the turnbased games had you press down to select magic.

>>737041535
Has there ever been a good writer that studied writing? This has nothing to do with games by the way.

>>737028798
Because Metroidvanias are fundamentally video games while Final Fantasy is fundamentally a turnslop menucringe book series. The Real Deal is mostly written like dogshit anyway, and the indyriffic knockoffs have all the same flaws, with a pile of very obvious r*ddit poison on top.

>>737042035
>Final Fantasy is fundamentally a turnslop menucringe
You are constantly in menus in sotn and the like. Having something like a ring in Rdr2 or the like might be better than an actual inventory.

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>>737041712
Sure bro just gitgud. Nevermind the first webm where it one shots everyone but happens to miss a char.

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>>737039482
>Story can only ever detract from a game,
That's a nice niggercoal take. Did you get it from the same TikTok montage your got your attention span, lil zoomerito?

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>>737041712
These aren't bosses. They don't have 'regular' encounters because those would be tedious.

>>737040427
>And it's apparently hard for the average indie dev to write likeable characters.
>Probably because they themselves are unlikable people.
Same excuse for the nips? Because I haven't played a JRPG post-2000 that hasn't been insufferable whiny retarded teenagers acting like faggots at tremendous length.

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>>737041712
Game was a complete slog.

>>737042119
>>737042154
>>737042198
>>737042231
>being a disingenuous retard
Okay I've seen enough to know that you're just dogshit at the game. You really didn't need to emphasize that point so much.

>>737041892
>FF5 unlocks are not quick. You can't jobchange unless the story allows you to.
? You get the first crystal early and you can change as much as you like. If you mean that you gradually unlock more jobs, that's normal. A LOT of games make you wait for all your tools. It's just standard progression.
>FF6 what do you mean it's slow to unlock esper. I quit the game 3 times before i even got the samurai.
Ah, I guess that's fair. FF games absorb me easily so I never had that problem, but I can relate. I've played a lot of games where I just wish they'd get to the point already. Especially in JRPGs that just want to meander and make you fuck around before you can even walk outside town and fight something.

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>>737041712
Attacks do more than maximum hp. Also level is capped so not really an rpg.

>>737028798
Was Sea of Stars any good. It looked pretty Golden Sun-esque.

>>737041976
Good question actually. I think with writing it's more about experience and exposure than study. Inspiration is important and you need to figure out what works for you and what doesn't, but more importantly you have to hone your craft.
"Studying" it is a great way for some faggot professor to push their orthodoxy on you and ruin whatever creative voice you had.
Studying writing is good if you just want to churn out product for corporation, I guess.

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>>737042154
>>737042198
>>737042231
Why do mouth-breathing inbred /v/iggers constantly repeat how all JRPGs are just press attack to win but then you post .webms like this and shit and piss your pants when you actually die in these games?

>what the fuck this highly dangerous enemy clearly marked with the "fuck around and find out" level disparity icon just one-shot my entire party with a fire attack! this game is so fucking gay!
>hehehe most of the people looking at this video won't realize i'm underleveled and there's an easily accessible hard counter to fire damage in the form of completely nullifying it for multiple turns i'm such an epic troll

>>737042103
>You are constantly in menus in sotn and the like.
NTA but that's not really the same.
>>737042035
Menus are just a way to let you directly control multiple characters at once without everything getting too chaotic. They're fine. It's a bit strange if you're just controlling one character like in Dragon Quest 1 though

>>737028798
>Why did 60 hour RPGs not catch on???

Ain't nobody got time for them.

>>737042154
I freely admit to being filtered from what is probably a very good game, but I really, really hate the way this looks.

>>737042535
Obviously not, as in ff you can't attack without menus.

>>737042225
Admittedly they do ramble on a bit

>>737042123
No I got it from playing hundreds of jrpg over 4 decades. They got away with story because it was good vs evil where what you should do is obvious and nobody would object to it. The more they forced in story the worse jrpgs became and then they started copying western degeneracy where you are supposed to just continue on no matter how morally abhorrent the characters are.

>>737042574
The overworld is minecraft blocks and the main gameplay is figuring out how to get from one place to another by finding the one place you are allowed to climb.

>>737042620
Agree, JRPG stories are almost universally terrible. The best JRPGs are those where story takes a back seat and it's mostly just gameplay and systems (SaGa, SMT, Wizardry clones, dungeon crawlers)

>>737042581
>Obviously not, as in ff you can't attack without menus.
In FF you are controlling multiple characters.
You're giving them orders instead of controlling directly. That's not for everyone, but it's not inherently bad.
But it would be nice sometimes if there was more difficulty and strategy to justify it.

>>737042574
I hate the voxel aesthetic but I ended up loving the game because it has one of the best worlds I've had the pleasure to explore and it's constantly rewarding you for not being a drooling retard who just sticks to the main guiding paths.

>>737042675
I keep thinking I'll give it a try and then I look at it and... ugh. Yeah the navigation sounds terrible too.

>>737042506
They engage you after jumping down. They are not visible beforehand.

>>737042727
>and it's constantly rewarding you for not being a drooling retard
Guess it's not a game for /v/ then

>>737042727
Thanks, at least I can have some hope that it's not as bad as my brain tells me it is. I'll probably have to try it eventually since it keeps piquing my curiousity

>>737042724
Exactly. Ff is brain dead easy. It doesn't have to be. I wouldn't say adding block to 4 niggas in a row is the way to go, see e33. Ladiw did bring some spice to the combat, albeit it's still too basic.

dont even try to discuss jrpgs on here when at least half of /v/ is actually illiterate and are incapable of understanding subtext and themes. Being unable to understand stories written for literal teenagers is proof.

>>737042770
>Yeah the navigation sounds terrible too.
That anon is either retarded or trying to make it sound way worse than it actually is. Navigating the world is easy. As you get more traversal options it's pretty obvious where they allow you to go. The only time it ever boils down to very specific locations is "sequence breaking" or finding secrets but even then it's mostly a matter of being aware of the environment. You're not just spamming jump while hugging walls hoping you can get up somewhere.

>>737042910
I always say that turn-based combat has to require thinking, be fast or be infrequent so it doesn't get in the way. In FF's case, at least it's pretty fast so it flows well.
You get games like Octopath Traveler where combat is constant AND slow AND mindless (the bosses are ok) and it's just such a fucking slog

>>737042825
>They are not visible beforehand.
Yes it is. You can see it from pretty far away as you're maneuvering around that fort. The more you post the more you make it obvious you're the type of person with a dysfunctional peripheral vision and you are incapable of perceiving anything unless you are staring directly at it.

>>737042983
I was kind of turned off the idea of it having platforming in the first place, but I guess it could make exploration a bit more interesting than the typical JRPG where you're just glued to the ground.
As long it's not like Xenogears where an incoming battle can eat your jump and make you fall down several flights, lol

>>737043128
If you're actually interested try the demo. The tutorial area is like a microcosm of the overall world design. It has a fuckton of hidden stuff to find that most people won't even know exists unless they come back much later.

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>>737028798
Probably another anon already said it, but metroidvanias are more fast-paced and dynamic by nature, not to the point of appealing to ADHD faggots, but just enough to be entertaining (or better say, to avoid being a boring back and forth between areas)

Meanwhile, indie JRPG-styled games are usually back to good ol' "4 niggas in a row" gameplay setting which, while not bad per se, unless it has a really interesting or unique feature both for combat, exploring, graphics, etc, it really fails to get the attention of newer anons willing to play it.
That's the reason games like LISA, Undertale, Hylics and many more managed to at least stay relevant: they really tried to make something somewhat different instead of feeling like "RPG Maker geimu #1982704"

Has there ever been an indie RPG with gameplay closer to Secret of Mana, or Tales of Phantasia?

>>737043224
>If you're actually interested try the demo.
Didn't know it even had one. Thanks anon, I'll give it a look.

Any recent RPG maker games worth taking a look at? Could be some shit released yesterday for all I care.

>>737039976
>not spinning water to the front and hitting with the knife you had on
It was a fair loss, your fault for trying to use a physical attacker for magic.

>>737042983
It's not very clear where to go most of the time, other than everywhere. The world is entirely connected, the only thing stopping you from going somewhere is blocks being too high. I definitely ended up doing parts out of order unintentionally. There is never an indication where to go or that you could go somewhere else.
Whether any of this is a positive or negative depends on the person. Personally I think that is the best aspect of the game. I started out by saying not to play on hard because it really does ruin the experience. You will not be able to experiment and play around with classes; there is just no leeway for that.

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I use this random fag's website for finding metroidvanias: https://www.demajen.co.uk/retrospective.html

Scarmonde is an FF-like.

>>737035145
This dev has another cool RPG he released beforehand and even made an older-style strategy guide PDF for it.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1037860/Shadows_of_Adam__The_Official_Players_Guide/
>>737039809
FFI had the best FF story.
>>737041839
>dev keeps adding shitloads of updates while I drown in other games + lethargy and anhedonia
Hmm... nyo!
>>737042387
Insultingly boring.

>>737028798
cause jrpigs have shit gameplay which cant stand on its own with no franchise and nostalgia and high production value to support it
Sea of Stars is quite successful but took a very long time dev and it also plays on nostalgia

>>737028798
>but indie Final Fantasy-likes never did?
Content-heavy in term of writing, char design and vertical progression.

>>737043418
>the only thing stopping you from going somewhere is blocks being too high
Unless you're waiting an excessively long period of time between each session you should be able to remember at least vaguely where each upgrade allows you to progress because the entire game is designed around them. This is no different from playing a metroidvania, getting the double jump and immediately wanting to go back and check out the numerous areas you couldn't reach before. There's nothing esoteric about any of the upgrades and even in the cases where you have no idea what you're getting into, like the owl spots, the game at least drops obvious enough hints that you should take the leap of faith because you're going to find something.

>>737043376
Look Outside is good, even if the developer keeps making annoying incremental updates to it. That's not really a traditional RPG structure, but it goes pretty heavily into resource management and gradually exploring a location in a metroidy kind of way, so it's pretty cool.
Hero's Realm is an older one that's more traditional, except it lets you create four parties (one hero character and three custom members in each, chosen from 12 classes) and despite being a bit jank (RPGmaker 2003, please understand) it's great.

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>>737043069
Here longer version.

>>737028798
Games like FF need an entire fucking world, you need to make assets for multiple dungeons, towns, over world and different biomes.
In metroid vanias you can make the whole game take place in a single location and its always inside. They're side scrollers which is also easier to make assets for.
RPGs also need to be way way way longer, its normal to beat a metroid vania in a couple hours.

>>737043376
wooden ocean. Not recent, but still updated almost weekly since release. Has the best exploration in an rpg that I've played.

>>737043058
Ot is disgusting. I don't get how anyone actually enjoy this crap. Bosses might be better than regular enemies, but it doesn't justify a playthrough. Stagger mechanic reduces combat to puzzle.

>>737043765
I'm not sure what you thought you were proving here anon. You have plenty of time to react to that. If you want to make disingenuous ragebait you should choose something like that fucking seahorse or whatever it is under the bridge.

>>737029508
As I am sure lurkers have undoubtedly ascertained from the past couple hours of this thread, CProject has an obnoxiously defensive fanbase whose idea seems to be that insulting others for not worshiping every aspect of the game will make other people like the game more and play the game (see: Deltarune/Undertale and Hollow Knight fans.)
Also, these literal newfag's entire idea of promoting and advertising the game was to spam <name>'s game then throw a fit and act smug when asked for the name of the goddamn game, like they were in a cult talking to their friend circle. They especially spammed the absolute ungodly shit out of /vrpg/ during release time.
The only notable <name's> game will only be bob's game.

>>737043962
If people are going to be disingenuous retards they deserve to be called out for it. I don't care if someone likes or hates the game but I'm more than familiar enough with it to call out bullshit and someone is dumping a whole lot of bullshit.

>>737028798
>Why did indie metroidvanias take off, but indie Final Fantasy-likes never did?
This may upset a lot of JRPGfags but the reason FF has dominated the genre so much is because they presented a level of polish and quality that hasn't been matched.
The run from 7-10 set the bar so high that even they themselves realised that they would never reach it again, so didn't bother attempting to.

People may point to more obscure PS1 JRPGs which are fine or more weeby stuff that isn't widely appealing like persona but we just aren't being honest if we're saying that anything in the genre holds a candle. People even claim that E33 is the biggest challenge to date and that game is a solid 4/10 at best.

Same reason we haven't seen 3D Zelda clones since OoT, you'd assume that'd be a golden formula easy to replicate... Nope. 30 years later, not a single competitor

>>737040052
>>737040248
>>737041582
Not playing your slop, faggot

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>>737043069
Here's 3 hours later when it's a blue flame.

>>737043505
>Scarmonde
There's an retro 8bit ff with a greenish filter, not gameboylike, rather nes. Any idea of the title?
Is scarmonde worth a play?

>>737043386
Water got converted to blood near the beginning so I wasn't used to using them.

>>737044095
>has a fucking Cleric in the team
>died to the fire attack despite Cleric having the hardest hard counter to fire damage in the entire game
Disingenuous. Fucking. Retard.

>>737043376
Aside from what has been mentioned, Exit Fate is a good Suikoden.

>>737043128
I don't think that ever happens but I guess it is possible.

>>737043919
>Stagger mechanic reduces combat to puzzle.
Puzzle implies there's some thinking involved. Sadly it's just tedious busywork, where you can do fuck-all damage until you bust an enemy's 7+ shields. The game does its best to prevent you from doing that efficiently by having 10 elements, constantly palette-swapping enemies with different weaknesses, giving each class fuck-all abilities, and limiting how many people can use each class.
To do semi-decent damage without all that nonsense, you still need to wait several turns to buff and gain battle points, just so you can do on turn three what most games let you do on turn 1. Everything worth doing requires multiple turns of setup.
And this is for EVERY RANDOM BATTLE because everything is a fucking damage sponge. It's terrible.

>>737043946
React how? Reset? How is that different than game over?

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>>737044043
Could you explain why it's bullshit? NTA but when I played I was having fun with the exploration, but most of the enemies have strong aoe spells that just nuke my party before I can get the chance to do anything, so I drop the game because of that.

>>737044346
>enemy's 7+ shields.
Wtf is even that? My armor has 14 layers of soak, hurrdurr.
>The game does its best to prevent you from doing that efficiently by having 10 elements, constantly palette-swapping enemies with different weaknesses, giving each class fuck-all abilities, and limiting how many people can use each class.
Tedium the game.

>>737028798
I think many indie devs who are inclined to make an RPG get caught in the trap of RPG maker. RPG maker does make it easy to produce something but all the games feel like RPG maker games. Even stuff like Lisa that has a lot of effort put in still feels like RPG maker at the end of the day.

>>737044050
Square didn't want to compete with pokemon when they were spending 500x the budget.
Nintendo doesn't want to compete with Dark Souls.
It's just japanese hubris. Never admit error. Can't fail if you stop competing.

>>737028798
Because no one cares if an indie metroidvania is 5 hours long, but most indie rpg's are short as fuck.

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Is octopath traveller a good 'beginner' jrpg? If not what would be a good starter?

>>737044939
paper mario

>>737044939
Babby's first JRPGs:
Final fantasy 4-7, 9, 10
Persona 3-5
Chrono trigger

>>737044531
>Could you explain why it's bullshit?
There isn't a single enemy in the entire game that you can not beat with guaranteed zero deaths assuming you are fighting it at the appropriate stage of progression. You are always have access to equipment or classes to help overcome a challenge. If you are the type of person who goes into an RPG doing nothing but spamming your strongest attack then Crystal Project is not the game for you. It expects you to understand your available toolkit and how to use it.

>>737044939
No, it's a bad rpg. Try ff2 psx or ff4, the proto rpg.
>>737045071
Or the other one mario rpg.

>>737044939
Octopath tends to be kind of love it or hate it. I fall into the hate camp. That said, it's not that complex. If you'd rather try something else, my recommendation would be any of the following:

Final Fantasy 5, 6, or 7
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy 10
Dragon Quest XI (pretty long)
Romancing Saga 2 Revenge of the Seven (more gameplay-focused than the others here)
Tales of Arise (action RPG)

>>737045071
Not a fan of mario but thanks.
>>737045075
>Chrono trigger
Is there a big difference between the ports or is it a just grab whatever?

>>737045129
>>737045176
Thats a lot of stuff thanks.

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>>737045104
I guess bro maybe I did play it wrong, i'll give it another try sometime down the road

>>737045264
Emulate the DS version. The steam port is notoriously buggy on modern hardware.

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>>737045264
Here is a handy sign.

>>737045104
This is not true at all. I think there are even enemies where their attack does multiples of your maximum hp in damage, as in your maximum hp is in the calculation of how much damage it does.
>well if you look up a guide for every single enemy you could grind out specific jobs for it
lmao no

>>737044939
>Is octopath traveller a good 'beginner' jrpg?
No. It's not hard or anything, but it's very tedious and it will likely turn you off JRPGs before you even get started. It's also a bit "thin" in that doesn't really have all the foundations of a proper JRPG, it's kind of a referential thing made to invoke nostalgia.
It does some interesting things, but I wouldn't play it first. Or second, or third, or fourth.

>>737028798
zoomers are more easily captivated by metroidvanias because you immediately go out and start pressing buttons to make numbers go up. They don't have the patience for turn based games.

>>737045812
>This is not true at all.
Yes it is.
>you must use a guide
The fact that this is your immediate thought is extremely telling. Are you old enough to be on this site?

>>737038612
Speaking of shitty story

>>737042276
>>737042493
NTA but what's he doing wrong?

>>737044121
It has a demo, it's a decent FF1 clone

>>737046262
He's fighting boss-level enemies while underleveled or completely lacking preparation. For example he posted multiple videos of the Rampart Demon wiping his team with Fire Breath but one of the starting classes has an ability that completely nullifies all fire damage against everyone for multiple turns.

It's basically DSP level stupidity while bitching about the game being "unfair."

>>737044939
Octopath 2 is very fun, but I think it might be the kind of RPG you need to play after having played other RPGs. I recommend the SNES Final Fantasy games. If you don't like those then classic turn based RPGs probably aren't for you.

>>737046549
Fucking lmao. I now understand the mindset of players who whine about these games. They simply do not want to engage with the systems. It's like someone playing a card game but not understanding anything about card games and just playing the card with the biggest number on it each turn. Absolutely embarrassing.

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>>737028798
Epic Battle Fantasy is really fun. Makes status buffs/debuffs fun to use, and equipment valuable throughout the game with mixed elemental resistances(you heal from elemental attacks if your resistance goes over 100%)

>>737046585
>I recommend the SNES Final Fantasy games. If you don't like those then classic turn based RPGs probably aren't for you
They're dog shit. Bad gameplay, story, pacing. Not even particularly pretty. The only thing they have going for them is Uematsu

>>737046947
>Bad gameplay, story, pacing
I disagree with the gameplay and story but I can see why you'd think it.
But they've got great pacing, better than just about every other JRPG. So I find that odd.
>not even particularly pretty
Maybe not 4 and 5, but 6 looked great when it came out and still holds up pretty damn well.

>>737046681
The average /v/ user has been conditioned by shitposters to think that you can beat all JRPGs by just using the attack with the biggest number and grinding and then they are surprised when it's not the case.

>>737046947
4 is one of the only long games I beat as an ADHD retard child back in the day so it must have been doing something right. Maybe it's just nostalgia goggles.

>>737046681
Except as the video shows, it's an enemy you don't see until there is nowhere to go to avoid it and you get killed before you can use abilities.

>>737028798
Actual answer: JRPGs take more time and resources to make. The opposite is true for shit like Metroidvanias or Roguelites (especially Roguelites), which is why they're so popular.

>>737048178
>the disingenuous fucking retard is still going on about this
There are numerous ways to ensure you act first so you can use the ability which completely shuts down half of his attacks. Stop being a fucking moron and think about things other than "hurr durr how me make big number".

>>737028798
>Why did indie metroidvanias take off, but indie Final Fantasy-likes never did?
We had a small break from Metroidvanias. As much as 4NARfags bitch, we never got a break from FF-likes; even discounting the RPGM craze, you still had about 10x more of these games on portables like GBA than you did Metroidvanias.

>>737028798
Sea of stars is the perfect example of why indie games could never recapture jrpgs of old, the game is so fucking gay with no bite or edge, just a safety blanket where everything is sanded off and smooth in case you ever felt any amount of discomfort. Gay nigger reddit tranny fucking game.

E33 literally won a fucking nigger award ceremony. Also final fantasy is the most bottom tier jrpg series with some good games and godtier music

I thought Chained Echoes was really good, loved their battle system. Wish the mech gameplay was better, but other than that it was great.
Too bad the dev decided to spend years working on DLC instead of starting with a new game in the same universe already.

>>737029598
In the RPG I’m currently developing, 80% of the enemies (including some bosses) can be instantly killed with a specific spell if you’re REALLY struggling against them or just want to cut to the chase, with the trade off of depriving you of any of their drops if killed this way.

>>737040419
>You can't name a single jrpg with an elf and a dwarf
Final Fantasy
Tales of Phantasia
Tales of Symphonia
Suikoden
Suikoden III
>never mind them being party members
Suikoden V
Shining in the Darkness
There's loads of games with just elves, but Japanese people only like putting sexy things in their games for the most part, so dwarves get shafted.

>>737049110
sounds gay

>>737028798
I don’t enjoy turn based RPGs unless the music is really really good. The gameplay doesn’t stand on its own. Metroidvania gameplay is always appealing to me though.

>>737048825
They don't make writers like they used to.

>>737049451
Well I think YOU’RE Gay!

In all seriousness though, this mechanic is still very much a work in progress, and mainly just exists to give any dopamine-fried retards (and normal retards for the matter) that happen to pick it up a chance to play too.

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>>737039574
Funny cause I had the opposite experience. You just sound like a bitch. I thought Crystal shit was whatever and it wasn't till I put it on Hard I found some fun with it. Not a bad game.

>>737043765
>>737042119
>>737039574
hate games like this desu. old devs rewarded you greatly for experimenting with unorthodox mechanics, they don't punish you for it like new fans do

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>>737030726
>>737030813
>>737041282
>>737048935
>unironically shilling chained cuckolds
Ah yes, the game which message are
>if you gf wants to fuck that nigga she should be free to do so bro
>raping is ok if you're poor and it should be forgiven because being poor justifies it
and
>you see that guy who pretended to be your friend but screw you over and over because he's a literal narcicist psychopath? he deserves another chance, surly he's going to do good this time
peak modern western indie writing, then people ask why western jarpigs never succeed

>>737029292
based post
you could play a strategy game
you could be reading a good VN
you could be playing some good ass action game
but not jrpg menu slop. it combines the worst aspects of all three

>>737038572
nigga all jrpgs have political stuff in them

>>737029292
>>737050131
I would not enjoy persona if it was a mindless dungeon crawler with almost 0 story/dialogues. That's why i don't like soulslop
I would not enjoy persona if it was a power point presentation lacking the rpg features and the demon collecting gameplay. That's why I don't like VNs
rpg offer a combination of both, so it doesn't get stale, regardless if you think that games focusing in only one aspect execute that same aspect better than rpgs

>>737029930
>indie metroid clones arent very good
silksong is orders of magnitude better than any metroid

>>737048091
>Maybe it's just nostalgia goggles.
I played it recently and it's still great

>>737048825
>the game is so fucking gay with no bite or edge, just a safety blanket where everything is sanded off and smooth in case you ever felt any amount of discomfort.
And the Steven Universe-ass character's constant forced relevance makes it impossible to ignore.

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>>737039574
>Best jrpg of the last 20 years are Rance Quest, Enchant Farm, Black Souls and Sequel Blight.

>>737028798
Both of these types of games are irredeemable dogshit and I am perpetually weary of 60 IQ stinky FF autists and glorified platformers equally.

>>737049110
sounds cool
But I think you should do something more than deprive the player of drops, unless that's a big sacrifice. Like you do it too many times and it causes negative story consequences or makes some other bosses stronger? Idk it's your game

>>737043765
Holy fuck the """art"""style of this game fucking sucks
STOP DOING THIS SHIT

>>737028798
Metroidvanias are built to be games
'Final Fantasy's' are meant to be stories.
Older final fantasy games the likes you want to see paid homage were written and directed people an audience that didn't have experience with games as story telling mediums, nor the technical capabilities to simply recreate movies.

They are a very specific place-and-time production that can only be reproduced by someone who has virtually no gaming experience, excepting maybe having played ONE Final Fantasy to get the 'gist'.
And even then, we are still talking about original writers/directors having non-self referential writing that infects everything modern. So this hypothetical person would also need to have been limited to mostly older movies, and probably books.

The present landscape is one of utter soullessness top to bottom. It is not the environment any of the original staff existed in when making those earlier Final Fantasy games.

>>737028798
Been waiting years for some Secret of Mana clones, but it turns out most of them are just shitty craft/farm sims with fighting attached at the last second or never multiplayer.

I was praying Trials of Mana would have been coop but instead it was just solo for some reason. So fuck it.

>>737051467
>'Final Fantasy's' are meant to be stories.
They're meant to be adventures. This means both story and gameplay are important. The gameplay is somewhat indirect in nature, but functions well to facilitate the adventure, and doesn't indicate a lack of experience from the developers or the audience.
But I agree with your points about self-referential writing and soullessness.

>>737048568
And you're supposed to know all this about an enemy you haven't seen without a guide.
I think you have brain damage.

>>737048898
E33 is discluded from jrpgs for having twitch reflex elements.

>>737051467
>>737052071
They were mean to be dumbed down console versions of western crpg games like Ultima niggers. Which in itself were meant to be a digital version of p&p dungeons and dragons.
Metroidvanias are just mario with extra steps and sometimes with some light rpg mechanics

>>737052446
I guess super mario rpg and paper mario arent jrpgs either?

>>737051320
But I think you should do something more than deprive the player of drops, unless that's a big sacrifice. Like you do it too many times and it causes negative story consequences or makes some other bosses stronger? Idk it's your game
That’s exactly how I plan to implement this mechanic over the whole game, on top of the resource drain from using it too much eventually soft locking you, and of course there’s obstacles immune to it you’ll have to beat properly to make progress.

>>737052696
That does sound pretty cool then! I look forward to seeing more about it

>>737028798
Because you need compelling characters driving a compelling story.
Indie devs might be autistical in gameplay and art design, but that same autism will destroy their story/characterization.
Even FF struggles to have good stories nowadays.

Even half the people in this thread think jrpgs are about story so yeah, dead genre until AI can make them. Then we'll have a golden age. Should honestly be one of the easier things to build an AI tool for, then you can have a world created as you go kind of thing and play forever.

>>737050039
Chat is this real or is he baiting

>>737052559
Correct. Mario RPG is even worse for having all the platforming which fucking terrible given the dpad input, isometric view and non-cardinal movement requirements. I believe you can also more or less ignore the game mechanics if you can master the bouncing; making it player skill rather than character skill.

>>737052696
I've only seen such a thing in eroge. Isn't knowing you are a failure enough of sacrifice? One company puts a little dungeon that gives pity drops and easy experience and then puts a big loser label over your status if you go into it.
The whole point of rpgs is that the player can level and determine the difficulty. The grind if any is to incentivize challenging yourself instead of wasting time.

>>737053317
>One company puts a little dungeon that gives pity drops and easy experience and then puts a big loser label over your status if you go into it.
kek, which game is this?

>>737053159
So does that mean all the Tales Of games are not jrpgs as well? It's only about spreadsheets and attack commands while staring at pretty visuals?

>>737053473
Eushully does this in their games.

>>737028798
>Why did indie metroidvanias take off, but indie Final Fantasy-likes never did?

They did, but it's before your time. Japan had this RPG maker thing in the early 00s that allowed people to make indie FF games.

>>737053551
Yes those are arpgs. See also Dungeon Crawlers, srpgs, crpgs, wrpgs, roguelikes, roguelites, soulslikes and more I'm forgetting.

>>737042310
>Attacks do more than maximum hp.

Wooow the enemies can kill me
Motherfucker wouldn't last a second on MGQP paradox difficulty

>>737055609
Don't think I finished the second one and my understanding is paradox isn't translated. The first game was entirely a puzzle game, you had to perform actions exactly in order until near the very end when you could get away with a bit of alteration. Second was better in that regard. The art the creator did himself was all terrible though. No excuse for that any more with AI. That's exactly what AI is for.