.
>>737199492Not defending yellow paint, but I think you underestimate how retarded most playtesters are. I’m thinking of Dishonored where playtesters got stuck because a guard told them not to go into a restricted area in a STEALTH GAME.I genuinely wonder why playtesters are so low IQ and where companies even get them from.
>>737199914In the preview event before Crimson Desert went live one of the youtubers invited noticed how a bunch of other people/journalists got stuck on the very first puzzle in the game. Pic related is from one of those guys. The funniest part is that the game literally has a giant yellow circle of where to aim but people still couldn't figure it out.
At first it was easier, but when the testers said "this is too difficult", I made it even more difficult.
>>737200169Anybody that watched Funhaus knows Bruce was always terrible at playing video games
It's still really fucking funny to me how the game to finally push people over the edge about this bullshit was Still Wakes the Deep, the one game where putting yellow paint on interactables actually made sense in context.
>>737200626I thought it was the FF remake
>>737200730Yeah Im pretty sure it sparked with FF Remake part 2 or whatever.
>>737200730>>737201580Remake Part 2 was the boiling point. Random yellow paint placed in the cliffs that you have to climb, where there's no other ways to progress?! How would I know where to go?!
>>737199914David Jaffe threw a fit on twitter because he couldn't figure out a room in Metroid Dread had a destructible ceiling right after there was text on the screen saying some rooms had destructible walls and ceilings.
>>737199492Anon, yellow paint is the least important thing. Modern games are made for the lowest common denominator and aren't fun in the slightest
>>737199914Because if you have actual IQ you go get an actual job.
Yellow paint is bad because it breaks immersion by being diagetic, and then you have to deal with the absurd notion that some lunatic is going around painting everything yellow.
Gaming never recovered from this
>>737203680Even if such a lunatic actually existed and was integrated into the game's story, it would still be an extremely hard sell and still scream handholding at the end of the day."Detective vision" is one example of justifying a handholdy mechanic, and the justification simply doesn't work. These things are impossible to justify. They break immersion by their very nature.
>>737199914controversial opinion: i don't think devs should be catering to such retardsif a 30IQ dumbass starts complaining about how they spent an hour stuck in a maze, no one's gonna think "oh i guess we've got to get rid of the maze then" they just laugh at the fucker and move on with their day
>>737199914Another example
>>737199492People that bitch about the yellow paint for the billionth time are way more obnoxious.
>>737203928Batman having detective vision makes perfect sense though
>>737204061No, they're really not.
>>737200169Never played this game but what is the puzzle exactly?
>>737204094It was a shitty mechanic used for linear scripted "puzzles" designed to pad out gameplay. Little more than visual flair.Also doesn't justify Joel and Agent 47 getting the same ability for no reason
>>737200169Moving cubes to power conduits. After it's done, the game shows you that the round thingy activates with yellow lights, indicating that you can punch it to finish the sequence.
>>737203959anon try to follow me here>companies only purpose is to generate profits>profits increases the more people buy your product>retards makes the majority of the population >mocking or not pandering to certain part of the population reduces the chance they will buy your producti think you can figure out the rest alone
>>737199914>I genuinely wonder why playtesters are so low IQBecause gaming has gone mainstream so developers need these retards to be testing game because they know a large portion of the playerbase will most likely be retards.
>>737204405Maybe your agent 47 gets it, but mine doesn't. I'm not a shitter like you so I don't play nuhitman games with instincts enabled.
>>737204061Wonder who could be behind this post...
>Outer Wilds>No yellow paint>Retards hate itGames that uses yellow paint knows that it's playerbase are genuinely perceptionally and intellectually challenged.
>>737204476well anon i want you to follow me on this>retards will buy games anyway because they are retardsi don't really need to elaborate on that, i think my point's pretty clear
>>737204405How would a puzzle not be scripted? But anyway, that's the problem with making mechanics that work, they get copied by others with no sense or reasoning added except for calling it "really good listening" or "assassin senses" or whatever they did.Batman has a special suit, he has special vision modes, normal people are not echo locating dolphins.
>>737204405eh i dont know trying to keep track of 3 different people in some fuck off huge place with a billion people in it sounds pretty annoying more than anything
>>737199492Consoles should add an AI buddy that helps you play the game.
>>737204594Oh no! Gameplay? In my game?
>>737199914>I’m thinking of Dishonored where playtesters got stuck because a guard told them not to go into a restricted area in a STEALTH GAME.just like in court with a jury, where jurors are tested to see if they understand the concepts and field they'll be dealing with, playtesters that do not understand how a game and the genre work should be ruled out.Tailoring games for a crowd that isn't going to play that game is fucking stupid.
>>737204061t. yellow paint needer
>>737204608But every so often you have to stand up and yell McDonalds© to use it
>>737200169Bruce is dsp level retard
>>737199914Playtesters need to be "low IQ" as it allows the devs to have a base understanding of how an uninformed person would go through their game. Additionally, it also makes it easier to bug test as they will play the game in ways that "aren't intended but should be possible" if the game is designed right.
>>737204907WrongUnless the devs target market is "drooling retard mouth breathers" they should actively gate keep, belittle and shame retards who claim to want to play their game. At no point should a dev change anything to cater to some faggot tourist who wont play their whole game because they just consume product and move onto next product.
>>737204583you can only fuck over the same tard enough times before even he starts connecting the dots, even leddit has been shitting on AAA for a while now, and happy retards that can have fun with your game are more likely to meme other fellow retards into also buying the game>>737204636>walking around for 40 minutes to look for a dude in a sea of peoples, in places full of restricted areas before you can start to actually plan a way to kill him>gameplaypick one
>>737204517It actually makes sense for 47 to have such an ability since he’s a genetically engineered super-assassin with inhuman skill. Plus, in nu-Hitman, instinct is just a glorified real time map and means of tracking NPC movements, so it doesn’t break the game.The whole “X vision” trend started with the first Assassin’s Creed, and it made sense there too because it was there to give you a means to pick out targets in a crowded open world city. It didn’t highly interactables or points of interest though.
>>737205068>Unless the devs target market is "drooling retard mouth breathers"It unironically is, that's the thing. We're so fucked.
>>737205068>>737205116Correction: it’s not devs that want that target market, but publishers, since they make up a sizeable percentage of the population. A lot of accessibility features in games from the 7th gen onwards were added against the dev’s wishes.It all comes down to money and keeping the investors happy at the end of the day.
>>737205068>Unless the devs target market is "drooling retard mouth breathers"*taps sign* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SAgWHr5cQ8
>>737204061
>>737205068Two things: One, it is a business and games shouldn't gatekeep potential audience members by allowing for unintentioned behaviour to create bugs as that would discourage the "smart" players from buying their game.Two, devs may have overlooked a more efficient path/option that a "low IQ" stumbled into. Thus, if it isn't accounted for, the efficient method could ruin the gaming experience.
>>737204094>>737205092No it doesn't. None of that shit makes sense. Even if the game goes out of its way to explain it, you still know the real reason why it exists.
>>737205457Personally, I think playtesters should be a mix of low IQ and high IQ players. Both retards and absolute geniuses are capable of playing games in ways the devs never intended (see speedrunning autists who know the game so well they can break it in their sleep).
>>737205374>My garden is full of weedsClean them you lazy fuck
>>737204041>Greg Coomer
>>737205668Fair point.
>>737199914Same reason why burger flipping wagies are usually not the sharpest tools in the shed. If you have a low paying garbage job, it is usually because you are an idiot that can't get anything better
>>737204545Kek
>>737205659Yes, you know why it exists, but if it's going to exist the least they could do is come up with some real reason, like Batman's suit of bottomless features having several modes, for it to exist.
>>737205701You get called antisemite if you try.
>>737205374
>>737203680There should be a yellow painter simulator.You run around the open world level and paint the route for the hero.Hardest difficulty is named "Game Journalist Mode". Secret insane difficulty is DSP mode
>>737199492Maybe I'm just getting old, but I'm realizing the yellow paint is actually necessary because modern games look too realistic and there's a lot of handholding so it's difficult to tell when they want you to do something that's not some scripted event.
>>737205912>A man contemplates how he let his garden get so full of weeds and how he should get rid of them
>>737205780That's not true. The higher up you go the stupider people get.
>>737205832The thing is that the reason it exists might not even necessarily be due to dumbing down. If we go back to the Assassin’s Creed and Nu-Hitman examples, both those games have big levels and they’re games where tracking NPCs over long distances is important, so it makes sense to have this feature in some form rather than not and handwave it away as “heightened senses earned through training”. It’s also why Far Cry and MGSV allow you to mark enemies with Binoculars, as it’s a lot more difficult to keep track of enemies in an open world environment.
>>737203959You're right>>737204476You're a condescending cunt, no better than the devs that have gaslit themselves into thinking that too.HL2 playtester, going around in circles for half an hour? The one that got it wrong, everyone laughs at and the devs changed the level because of.What you don't hear, or conveniently ignore? The rest of the play testers that didn't walk around in circles.Devs have been in this perpetual loop of>appeal to lowest common denominator>dumb games down>devs have convinced themselves they have to dumb games down now because all games are dumbed down>Regurgitate the belief that all games are dumbed down because ALL gamers are idiots or #iwannarelaxafterworkandhavealifeAnd we also have dipshits like you, pointing to the lowest common denominator as if that is the majority
>>737205668Ok but where are you going to get high IQ people to do tedious shitwork for pennies?
>>737205978If you’re not able to tell what pathways are viable at a glance, then that’s a level design and art direction failing. That’s all yellow paint is — a crutch for lazy level design and art direction.
>>737206234India?
>>737204476You'd lose more sales by insulting the competent players' intelligence than you'd gain. People who are too dumb to realize that conveniently placed climbable surface or unbarred door could lead to the next area shouldn't be playing video games in the first place. I miss when we (including the devs) laughed at these people, not design the game around them.
>>737206096If you had a solid eye in V it would have made way more sense how you were marking everything and everyone. Just hand wave it along with everything else.
>>737206234You just described programmers.
>>737199914Bad world design and cameracontrol is the problemRE4make needs yellow paint because it has climbable ladders and not climbable ladders, breakable boxes and not breakable boxes, openable doors and not openable doors.
>>737205457My steelman argument in favor of casualization is that, if you believe a piece of game design is actually timeless and successfully made, then it should, when taken in isolation, be comprehensible to a complete outsider.A rational being should be able to understand what a piece of game design does with no prior game knowledge or skill. Truly timeless things are such that they can be arrived at independently over and over again.However, the reason why this argument doesn't apply to casualization is that ALL games are, in fact, comprehensible and beatable in and of themselves. There is no game that is effectively unplayable unless you play some different game first. Games like that don't and can't exist.
>>737206234Interns and entry level devs.
>>737206096Correct me if I'm wrong but tracking them IS the fucking game. Sounds like that retarded feature removed the entire game part.
>>737206305Anon just said >>737206262
>>737205861Weird how my gardener keeps telling me weeds are good for my garden but I notice his garden doesn't have any at all.
>>737199492Who the fuck cares about yellow paint other than low rent game journos.Dont play games that have it if you care so much it really doesnt matter.
>>737199914>playtesterswhy don't they ever ask /v/ to playtest their games? we're smart.
>>737199492Yellow paint is bad, but gamers, no..., people, are stupid as fuck and even the retard that drew that probably is just as stupid. Smart people, how little a group that is, don't waste their time with video games, let alone make "yellow paint" a serious problem in their lives to the point of deciding time discussing how horrible everything is.
It's not enough that consumers have two brain cells, no, they have to announce how proud they are of their slop and defend the billion dollar company with their lives
>>737204061not really
>>737203062Nothing says "adventure" like every single pathway being marked with guard rails and safety nets.
>>737206394If they ask people who only play video games to playtest then games will only cater to people who play lots of video games.
>>737199914This is why I really appreciate the System Shock remake. Nothing was simplified, shockingly. If your IQ isn't high enough to keep track of things/figure things out, you just can't complete the game. It's inherently hostile to normies, but makes it really satisfying for
>>737205985>and chooses to continue complaining about it, doing nothing, and complain about it never changing
>>737206394Seems like a no-brainer honestly unless you are making unredeemable trash or are completely unwilling to listen to feedback; as most are. You'd get an automatic cult following off the bat.
>>737206412You don't need to be smart to deduce the path forward, assuming the level designers did their job properly. Even if someone isn't perceptive or bad level design makes things confusing, people will resort to trial and error until they succeed. Like they' did in the past. Instead game devs incentivize players to be lazy and condition them to shut off their brain.
>>737206371In the case of Hitman, things NPCs can do on one side of the map can affect things that happen on the other side of the map, so it’s handy as a tool for making sure an NPC is in a specific position of you’re trying to pull off a more complicated strategy. It’s why you’ll see speedrunners keep that feature on even with the other accessibility features turned off because it allows them to confirm when a target is about to die when they’re miles away from them.
>>737206412Fedora pseudbabble
>>737206528The last panel is him lost in thought about whether killing studios one-by-one would be best, or if firebombing the entire field and starting from scratch is worth the losses.
>>737203747someone please post the side by side video of a bird doing a similar puzzle in real life
>>737199914>I genuinely wonder why playtesters are so low IQ and where companies even get them from.you need to remember that the average iq is 100
>>737204061>don't discuss games in the games board
>>737206326While my argument uses aspects from casualisation, it wasn't the main point. I was more arguing in favour of testing every possibility to find hidden flaws in the code/bugs in the level.
>>737206412but this logic you consider yourself stupid and therefore are not worth listening to
Yellow paint is better than having an obnoxious exposition fairy telling you how to solve every puzzle or reach your destination.
>>737206229>>737206263maybe the average gamer is smarter than a sub human retard, I'll concede that, but its as you say, the lowest common denominator, you can appeal to total retards along with norml people, do you think that half life 2 players knew there was a maze that was cut to appeal to tards? no but tards definitely appreciated there wasn't any maze even if they didn't knew it was ever there and while its more obvious thanks to modern developers being incapable subtle its extremely probable that for any gamer that is petty enough to drop a game over yellow paint there are 5 retards that dont refund the game 30 minutes in after getting stuck
>>737207281and people complain about that as well, what's your point?
Why do retards act like you need to be a genius in order to play games? What is this hokey Mickey Mouse bullshit?Instead, how about just: "I won't blame the game if I get stuck"? Or even: "I'm gonna give an honest effort and do my best"?My brother, you are here to play a fucking game - I don't care how smart you think you are - why would you expect it to take no effort at all?
>>737203343David Jaffe is a moron who refused to use the aiming mechanic in the game and repeatedly tried to play it like mega man instead. David Jaffe is probably the best example to use outside of DSP
>>737206726
It's a good thing actually to force people to use their brain. You do them a disservice by holding their hand.
>>737207542a lot of people, instead of limit testing or actually experimenting will just be completely unsure of the constraints of the game world and get stuck because they just won't try anythingalso a lot of people do not actually want any kind of challenge, they just want to grind digital pointsIt's sad, but it is what it is.
>>737206528>doing nothingturns out that's the best way to weed out bad video-games
>>737207646The bird didn't jump and dash mid-air so it doesn't count
>>737203959Another Kornheiser for my kollection
>>737204643So if I play the retard I can get out of jury duty?!Thanks anon, you're a life saver!
>>737208597All you gotta do is say something comically biased like "I don't believe the cops arrest innocent people" and they have to give you the boot.
>>737200169Bruce generally sucks at video gamesis he still banging autumn?
I’m a working developer, that doesn’t mean my opinions are any better than anyone else’s, but I am exposed to a lot of of these conversations by other professional designers, and I think a lot of them are missing out on some of the opportunities that stuff like the Internet provides for puzzle design. There’s a lot of bemoaning regarding people looking up the answers to things, and a couple of recent puzzle games have introduced random elements or at least large numbers of possible scripted changes to combat just googling the answer to a puzzle. However, I actually think that that’s a valuable player decision that should be expanding the types of puzzles we can put in games. The average puzzle or navigational challenge in a video game can be solved by looking up the answer. Since this is an option that players have, and that players are never directly compelled to take, we should be able to put basically any puzzle in games, since people can opt out when it stops being fun. The problem is unironically journalists. Nobody wants to do this because making stuff that journalists can’t solve is seen as a failure because journalists will complain about it rather exclusively. You’ll never ever find a game review where somebody says that they couldn’t solve a puzzle, and that this is proof that the game is good. I’ve theorized that arbitrarily evoking ARG’s and similar explicitly collaborative game mediums through narrative devices in a game might reframe occasionally googling the answer to things as an intended part of play, but obviously you don’t want to encourage people to skip your puzzles, even if leaving it as an option might be valuable.apologies for the rambling.
>>737208597I've been an adult for 14 years, and I've never received a jury duty summons. I'm not a felon or anything like that, so what gives?
Maybe I should become a playtesterclearly the bar to entry is somewhere in the core of the earth
>>737209001I’ve got bad news for you. Companies intentionally sort play testers into different groups based off of demography and expressed skill level. You being especially good at games, or even average, does not make you more appealing than people who are bad, they need a certain number of each group no matter what. Average players are the easiest to find, and this the least likely to be hired externally, when they can get the janitor or people working on other parts of the game to fill that role.
>>737209001You think you want to do this but you don't unless you're the type of autist who can load up any game and have fun searching for glitches. Game testing is an infamously bad job. You think of it as getting early access to a bunch of your favorite games when in reality most of what you test will be borderline shovelware.
>>737209424That's testing, not playtesting. Testers are usually paid "professionals" in the non-indie game development industry.Playtesting is similar to a market research. The playtest lab will go out of its way to create test groups depending on age, familiarity to video games and involvement in the game industry.
>>737207542chicken and egg problemvideo games are streamlined so the player doesn't ever get lost and confused ----> players have less experience getting lost and confused ----> video games are streamlined so the player doesn't ever get lost and confused
>>737210145That's not a chicken and egg problem, that's a positive feedback loop but the feedback makes games progressively more automated for the incompetence of retards.
>>737199492This is why gaming is such a cucked hobby now. The devs think they are above the general players and treat everyone like they are stupid. If they stop catering to the lowest demographic people wont be so stupid. As an indie dev I think you should just make it how you want and if the players can't complete it then it's probably not for them.
>>737203959as video games became more lucrative, more retards began to play them. Tragically, not catering to retards is like throwing away money.
>>737199914I remember watching one of those "made my girlfriend play" videos of BG3 and Lae'zel told her to not touch anything on the Nautiloid so she didn't interact with anything for the whole sequence and was shocked when her BF would point out an interactable.>but she TOLD me NOT to
>>737205912
left>just use these assets we bought from the store, and use substance painter to quickly paint some yellow paint on them so the player knows where to goright>let's build an immersive environment where the player has hints on where to go based on the objects in the worldIt's not about giving a hint, it's about the effort put into giving players any hints.
>>737208984I'm 31 and have gotten 2 so far. Maybe you just live in a low crime city?
>>737204325You put cubes on a cube shaped pedestalA ghost hologram shows you punching an object into a wallYou punch that giant circle with the ability it tells you. That's it.
>>737203959>make a game>it filters retards>they return the game in the 2 hour limit>make no moneyMonetization model drives game design. How you plan to profit affects your game at an integral level. The only way to make the game you truly want to make is to make a passion project and accept you may get no sales.
>>737203680>He doesn't know about the serial pisser
>>737203680i mean if we are considering it to be diegetic just put a subtle flash on whatever item they want you to focus on
>>737205374I don't know if people understand that the centrist position is an average across all positions, not being down the middle for every single issue. You could theoretically be a centrist if you have the same amount of far-right and far-left beliefs, but nuance eludes the modern politics golem
>>737200169Watched a friend of mine be stuck here for over half an hour.
>>737206676I honestly think the games play way better with instinct and it often comes off like a kneejerk reaction when people complain about it. It can be a neat change of pace without it or on like a first run but when you actually have a plan it's way better and means you're not stuck waiting around for the targets to move nearly as much. Even from an immersion standpoint, it means you can actually walk around like you belong rather than hugging walls to make sure you don't run into an enforcer.
>>737200169Is that Bruce? Bruce was always the weak link of the three when I came to playing games.
>>737208198Same reason why some boomers are good with computers and some boomers are bad. And now it's not even the elderly but younger kids too.People who are too scared that pressing the wrong ribbon on Microsoft Word will cause a computer meltdown won't experiment and never learn how to use a computer. People who aren't afraid to experiment will be better off. What's worse is there is always the option to look things up nowadays, but even people can't bother with that.
>>737214169the first KCD focused on a niche and did wonders for how obtuse it's combat was and unforgiving thr saving is.
If you need yellow paint type shit, hell even waypoints and GPS, video games aren't for you, and trying to cater to your low IQ so they could get more money is what ruined the industry.
>>737199492That comic fucking sucks. This guys got the crappiest writing style and jokes ever. He knows how to draw squares and circles decently at least, putting that expensive drawing tablet to good use.
