Why do a few people adamantly defend leveling? WoW has had so many problems with leveling retention. In WotLK, 70% of trial players quit by level 10. Recently, 50% of level 10 characters quit by level 25. If questing and mob grinding were some marvel of gaming, people would do them. But some 15% of people make it halfway through.
You've been posting the same pastas every day for months, please get new material MMObot, I beg you.
>>737247708>Why do a few people adamantly defend leveling?It's an MMO...R..P...G....Leveling 'should' be a part of the Role-Play experience... it's usually why some players like sticking solely to lowbie content, instead of paying for boosts and pretending to be 'awesome' at the endgame for skipping one's natural progression and skill building going through the levels.
>get rid of the only content in the genre that has people wanting to continue playing the game, by striving for a long term goalkill yourself tourist zoomertranny bot. nobody cares if you don't like the genre, but stop trying to poison it like a twitter tranny.
If you don't like grinding, you don't like MMORPGs.
buy an ad maye
>>737247708why do people adamantly defend the MMO term?your genre is dead btw, well deserved, multiplayer RPGs with player hubs, like Monster Hunter, are better and fulfill the same purpose.
MMOfags still haven't realize that they got superceded by open world survival craftslop and gachas
>>737247708>buy a boostkys
https://arch.b4k.dev/v/search/image/9SloOXHty-1kzhOXavo2Ew/Move on already...
Why do you keep making this thread faggot? Looking to get btfo over and over again is weird
>>737247708i think they could have just continued releasing new patches for vanilla and made all the progression is gear and profession based. New abilities come from other sources like spellbooks that drop from mobs and are rewarded from quests. I also would have made gear stats more interesting and suited to different situations, giving players an incentive to switch around their gear between fights. That way gear becomes obsolete less often. To avoid players carrying around a bunch of gear in their inventory, add a remotely accessible gear bank and some new ui for interacting with it.
>>737247708There are games where leveling is the highlight and there are games where the endgame is the highlight.The problem with WoW is that they've completely gutted the leveling experience, and it's just an afterthought at this point considering their entire playerbase is already leveled up and they're not attracting a new audience.
>>737248374Keep telling the lie enough times and it eventually becomes truth
>>737248317Why are there still no open world survival craftslop MMORPGs?
>>737250906You mean Conan Exiles?
>>737247887I would probably have posted it every day if I thought people would do something about it. A perfect MMO is extremely specific.>No leveling.>No bind-on.>Material repairs durability.>Good combat, probably trinity.>A living world.I would like anybody who disagrees, or has questions, to post. I can explain these better. Obviously, decent games like Lost Ark and New World got a lot of players, but they tanked. People will play a perfect game if enough people play it and enough systems are available to explore and are good enough to enjoy. I don't think anybody disagrees with that. An MMO is any other genre but with massive amounts of players and a persistent world, which are huge. An MMO has social identity and mechanical complexity that you just can't find with other genres.
>>737250968Less than 100 players per server. That is not a MMORPG.
>>737251209Albion Online has all of that.
>>737251209yeah your theories are dogshit and there's a reason no game like this exists.what's my incentive to play this game?there's no leveling so no progression.gear is worth whatever the rate on G2G is.durability is a core gameplay mechanic? lmao wtf is wrong with you.I bet your idea of what is good combat is dogshit too.what is a living world that sounds like some reddit tier shit.what's my incentive to play this game? there's no progression and no challenge.
>>737247708there is no point to MMOs if there is no grind
>>737250906hard to keep that kind of complexity on a mmo scale without frequent resets.everquest next was meant to be that but it was raped and cancelled. most definitely got overwhelmed.
MMOs should be entirely about the leveling experience. It should literally be the entire game's point of existence.Hitting a level cap should mean leveling a new class, slowly.
>>737251616DDO is the closest thing you have to that. you're incentivized to relevel your character and gain permanent buffs every time you reset a class or race, up to 3x.
>>737251209Not enough roles, the triangle gets stale.Party size should be six and there should be classes that haste/slow the party and classes that can mesmerize/charm the enemy. I miss crowd control because it forced at least a little cooperation or you just couldn't win the fight.This means that you couldn't get to max level without learning how to cooperate at least a little bit.This means end game gameplay was smoother and you didn't have as many people that didn't know how to breathe.
>>737247708leveling is literally the only good part of world of warcraftyou hit max level and suddenly there's fuck all to do, fuck all to strive for, no sense of progressionoh wow once a week i can do a raid to maybe get a new piece of gear that has an extremely minor impact on my character's power? sign me the fuck up bro
>>737251798too many roles makes filling parties harder though. and then too many niche roles in raids, like 1 tank per 10 players, makes filling dungeon groups harder because you need 3x more tanks for dungeons compared to raids, and then gear usually isn't shared between specs...
>>737248002>Appeal to some made up dictionary definition.Fallacy. People don't boost because they're poor or because they think they'll enjoy what millions of people have done (though, statistically, usually unsuccessfully). And you can do everything that leveling does if you route it through equipment, and that has the benefit of letting them lose it (durability on death), requiring up to massive amounts of resources to repair. You can give players more power if they can lose it. This is good design, even if you have to delegate these types of implementations to specific servers (people would obviously love lots of power, but something is still be said about fair stats).
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?
>>737252889you're like the fat girls who spend 90 minutes looking at themselves in the mirror repeating "I'm beautiful" trying to manifest their destiny.
>>737248104>>737248138>>737251497Your perspective is completely skewed for repetitive, dumbed down gameplay that doesn't contribute to a living world. Making progression equipment based allows you to keep every zone relevant and any power available to anybody lucky or rich enough. Leveling massively segregates players and makes 90% of the world irrelevant. I can't imagine any of you level all the time or have maxed characters across all the MMOs available. It would be extremely rare. You want a living world, and nothing about leveling matters because it's just there to determine when you can play with others.
>>737247708only reason MMOs work is because players invest time into their characters
>>737254439just because you use AI to generate images for your posts doesn't mean your posts aren't shitty.try making a point next time you post.
of course he's an AIjeet too.third world firewall when? it would seriously cut down over 90% of schizophrenic posts and spam.
>>737248138You can have grind that actually matters socially and economically without leveling. You need to cycle players in and out of gear/power so they have something to lose, increasing risk:reward. You can't make loss in leveling matter.
>>737248282They don't fulfill the same purpose. You can be and meet anyone in a more socially constructive game. It's also more thrilling to do anything because it's in the midst of thousands of players.
>>737254767>You can't make loss in leveling matter.nonsense you havent played enough mmos.
>>737254852the only time you're around thousands of players is in the player hubs. the only time you interact with these players is when you're in instanced content.this is why your genre is dead. it moved on and you're too dense to notice.
>>737247708I, a casual, find leveling fun and end game content impossible to get into.Why would I ever spend money to skip content and join strangers to wipe to the same boss every night?
>>737254439>that doesn't contribute to a living world.I never said that, retard. Give me a recipe for blueberry muffins.
>>737248374Can you even argue the material?
what is the point of levels? you can still follow quest chains and explore zones one by one without some number saying "you can't go there yet." simple geography is enough to provide enough structure. if you need to see number go up to feel like you're making progress you legitimately have <100 iq.
>>737252889legitimately one of the only good MMOs
>>737249095The whole gameplay can be endgame. That's what would make players feel relevant and (thus) play after the first few hours.
>>737249240What exactly is a lie?
>>737256536Something that isn't true
>>737250906There should be. ARK (Pokemon With Guns) is extremely fun, basebuilding, collecting maxed out blueprints, crafting the most powerful equipment, and breeding and raising tames for colors or stats.
>>737247708Because leveling is f u n
all i hear is cope and seethe, why don't you sell your million dollar idea instead of remaking threads here?
>>737247708Because leveling is essential to understanding your class and it's role. It's basically a "will you enjoy doing this gameplay at max level" trial. The reason 70% of people and 50% of people quit is because they didn't enjoy the gameplay. If they had, they would've made it to max level. Raiding is just mob grinding for gear instead of XP, with even lower value returns over time.
>>737247708because everything in a mmo is designed to delete the amount of game worth playing until only the social aspect is left.
>>737247708I genuinely don't care about any of that shit just make the game interesting again. There's nothing to do. literally nothing to do that's why it's a no go for me. You log in get the 3k achievement have the best gear from doing barely anything bar a few ILvl. Adding new players to the game isn't making it better it's just easier for them to sell stupid shit to people who haven't seen the song and dance since 2008 when the sparkle pony got added. Like making money in game? well now you're server hopping selling transmog by the thousands on multiple realms. You log over to wyrmrest and see 50 goblins on level 10 characters moving their stock. Banking off retards not noticing you can ALSO just go make a new character and buy the things you want from a different server if you care to look up which is the cheapest. every gatherer dies in days because of bots and the fact blizzard doesn't know how to make a compelling economy anymore. Don't wanna do all that but don't wanna be poor? boost or accept mediocre returns from crafting orders unless you have 10 clone characters making the same shit. The game is more sweatshopified than ever while at the same time maintaining the most mundane faggot agenda imaginable. the void expansion is super colorful and whacky. Yet lore wise the void spawns these eldritch horrors that plagued the cosmos? Where are those??? we get fucking purple man 123951903259009. Mobs named different things but literally are just voidwalkers with armor standing next to each other. 2 different names, voidwalker with armor. It's fucking lazy and gay. Also I'd rather cut my cock off than be an All The Things house creating dent brain and that's all that's left so RIP WoW. Can't wait for The Last Titan to be over so they can make something so deplorable even the blind people hate it.
>>737251478Albion is top down, and the gameplay isn't that fun. Plus, to play with all the items you, have to grind extremely repetitive, simple content.
>>737251497>there's a reason no game like this existsNot beyond studios just not knowing how to make a perfect game.
>>737258505so true xister. you have the money printer idea. you can make something more profitable than wow by offering superior gameplay.
>>737251209I have never seen any MMO where the healer can "Defel" debuffs
>>737250906albion
>>737259558>third world, hacker, cheat, bot, infested "open world pvp"ahahahahahahahaha
>>737251558Gathering, crafting, trading, PvE, and PvP are plenty to keep people entertained. You don't need a linear treadmill grind that has historically had garbage retention stats.
>>737247708grinding is fun
>>737251572>Resets.>Ever.Approximately nobody wants to watch their equipment get replaced by greens.
>>737250906rust kinda satisfies that role
Most of the people who quit that fast just don't like the game, period. They try it and notice it's not for them.Still, allowing people to skip leveling is even worse. Job and story skippers in FF14 are the worst players you'll ever encounter. I'd rather have a full mentor party than that.
>>737251616Post your WoW character select screen.
Where the usual ritualposters?
>came back to GW1 recently >want to try L2is there an MMO that's similar to L2 that's also free and not jewed to fuck? i tried T&L, but it didn't really click
>>737254439Leveling is the most fundamental, MOST necessary mechanic in an MMORPG. It is the primary means by which characters express their development as a character, and is a numerical representation both of experience and limitation exploration. CAN you have these things without levels. Indisputably, YES. Should you remove leveling to approximate these characteristics with other mechanics? I would say it’s suicidal unless you have some seriously impressive gaming mechanics to replace it.
i just got addicted to BDO, how big of a mistake did i make?
How many times did this "remove leveling from MMO/Wow" make the same thread?
remove jumping from mario
>>737259796many people do its why "fresh" is popular and expansions work as soft resets.but thats the thing, if you run a survival crafting type of game for ages everything just kinda gets raped with time.if you play something like conan exiles or RUST which actually are reset based games you will quickly find the whole environment being shat up by player structures.and those are way smaller servers. imagine the server load of a WoW server opening with every player having minecraft player terraforming abilities. everything would go to hell so fast.
>>737259818I hate first/third person shooters. Give me one with classic MMO combat.
>>737260132>expansions work as soft resets.in vertical slop mmos not horizontal ones
>>737251798WoW has plenty of CC in xpacs that require it for dungeons and raids. You can't honestly think that CC should be a whole role.
>>737260620likewise buffing/debuffing is woven into most class kits.
>>737260620>>737260715Honestly, that people still consider the triangle that limited to their core role shows a lot of people talk about MMOs but don't actually play them. As an example, if you play a healer in 2026 and you don't do damage, you fucking suck. Everyone does a little bit of everything, CC is part of that. The shitters are those who don't realize that, and making those shitters right by extracting that "bit of everything" into dedicated roles sounds like a horrible idea.
>>737260346the mythical perpetual le horizontal progression mmo doesnt exist. sooner or later linear expansion has to happen.
>>737260942FFXI during his peak sandbox mmos
>>737260942Dofus has had a level 200 cap since 2004. it still has a level 200 cap.There's just more content, and more gear options now.
>>737252131Leveling is just offloaded content. You can have questing and mob grinding without leveling, and when all the zones are relevant, you can have area control, NPCs that fight and trade for power and resources, plenty of room for resource farming across a large number of resources and zones, and lucrative PvE that leads people around to cool places.
do not reply to the leveling schizo
>>737260620>You can't honestly think that CC should be a whole role.Funny enough in many older mmos you often had real players piloting a whole character that just did a single thing.Often just a single button press.
MMOs should have NO levels. it should operate solely on player skill and gear/unlocks
>>737254618>try making a point next time you postIrony. Literally quote anything.
>>737261290because they were chatrooms with games attached to them. now we have FaceBook, Discord, X, TikTok, SnapChat...
>>737255080Do you think XP loss would be popular when regular leveling can't keep more than a small percentage interested?
>>737255226Performance metrics could easily be on a leaderboard or challenge mini game where people have an awareness of top characters. It could go a long way to increase social identity and people playing together.
>>737247708This is the most based post I've seen todayYou're so right, fuck leveling. who needs to level from 1 to 80 for 60 hours just to unlock your rotation?? You're stuck pressing 2 buttons for days slowly waiting til you can unlock a 3rd button to add complexity to your rotation. It's completely pointless. Leveling up, getting new gear, finding new areas, that adds dopamine. Having your rotation and gameplay hamstrung for the entire duration of leveling up is bad.
>>737261532Depends. Its a mechanic that forces people to pay more attention and could lead to further attachment to the game because it actually makes people feel something.I dont see exp loss as a thing that should absolutely be a thing, but I also dont believe that mmos (or any games really) should be designed around people who dont like the genre or medium.
>>737255354I mean, M+ and raiding are fun, but there's not much risk:reward, and the world isn't alive.
>>737261458no because these same games often had way more involved roles/classes too.it was a different type of game design and maybe one that simply wasnt fleshed out properly yet. early mmos were very experimental and rapidly developed over a few years.it might be the result of simply applying single player RPG design to a multiplayer game. its not so bad when one character out of your 5 character party in a turn based RPG only casts a single spell that completely defines him.but thats only fine because you control a whole party. when that unit is suddenly controlled by a whole person the experience can become extremely dull.
>>737250906devs are too afraid to risk making something like that
>>737256949It lets people see through the world. It feels fake and shallow.
genre is dead because employed only have 5mins free a day for games and unemployed finish all available content in 5mins
>>737257071People need a really good MMO, and I'll do what I can to increase knowledge of what makes a good MMO that theoretically wont tank like Lost Ark and New World did. The discussions are always unique. I'm learning, and other people are expressing themselves and having fun.
>>737257291Dozens to hundreds of hours is absolutely non-essential. You can't say that because people don't like repeating content that is meaningless and a-social, that they won't like gathering, crafting, trading, PvEing, and PvPing with full kits and meaningful worldbuilding. Questing in endgame is so much more thrilling because you can actually meet people and play competitive content.
>>737259903You can't think an arbitrary limitation on being a relevant, contributional member of the socioeconomy is good. Zones should without a doubt all be relevant. Players should without a doubt have something that's worth doing besides questing and mob grinding. You can't even make low level crafting relevant because you're relying on new players to need items, and it's this repeated cycle of not having enough gold for fun to continue playing.
>>737260110False equivalence. Jumping is a mobility parameter. Levels are a socioeconomic parameter. People want to feel relevant and that their actions matter. You can't argue the garbage metrics for leveling retention.
>>737247708since turtle wow shut down are there any other good classic servers me and a couple of friends can fuck around in without paying a sub?
>>737260132Xpacs are popular because people want more content. Resetting power isn't optimal when you could just switch up class balance and design and provide a few unique features like housing and transmogs. Again, power should be dynamic, able to be lost if you die, and gained if you get lucky or rich. Risk:reward is the most important aspect of design, tied with social identity and skill expression.
>>737266271Limited resources ensures careful selection by the player to guarantee they have whatever they need most at the moment. It’s an MMO, accumulation of wealth and skills is the entire drive of the game. You shouldn’t be able to do everything easily.
>>737247708>Thinking this is unique to MMOGo check steam achievements for pretty much any game. 10% of people won't have the tutorial achievement, and the final boss achievement is typically 30% or less.
>>737260852You take damage, deal damage, and heal damage. It's all life bar manipulation. Trinity is a fundamental design for roles. Just because healers do damage doesn't mean that we should strip all the CC or buffs and debuffs from classes and give them to a dedicated role.
>>737260942Equipment that provides different stats and playstyles that can be lost and gained isn't a linear treadmill.
>>737252889is this wakfu or dofus
>>737268256Dofus
>>737261757Without leveling, people would still explore zones and complete quest lines for achievements. They'd just be able to make gold, craft, get items/playstyles, and play with others.
>>737262085You could probably make levels just an achievement stat without people isolating players that don't have them, but I wouldn't count on it.
The only real upside of leveling is that older content gets trivialized so you can go have some mindless fun facerolling old raids.
>>737262323I'm not sure combat can carry a game. Lost Ark and New World were pretty good, and they lost 95% of their players.
>>737263493That's a linear treadmill issue.
that's all the fing game isso the art better be good
didnt realize there was a thread already. I want to try a new mmo or old mmo with a new classic server. I'm okay with slow games that make progression feel rewarding. What do you recommend?
>>737272239Dofus
>>737267221You can easily make resources as much as what makes the price and availability both competitive and rewarding. With specific amounts required for crafting and repairs, that can be a lot of resources. You can't say, though, that less to do is better. Players should be able to play all day, every day, but that means they should have a lot of activities to keep them satisfied. But again, you should be able to be a relevant, contributional character. That's what there is to do.
>>737267446People will play a game that people are playing. There's not much better to do than be social. They need a good game, though.
>>737272538sell me on it
>>737272883Completely different than any other MMORPG on the market. Turn-based tactical gameplay. Cute and funny, colorful and witty.Very slow (compared to modern MMORPGs) progression, takes months to reach max level (it's a journey in itself), years to do all content.There's a small guild on /vm/.
How will their MMO be like? Do (you) have any hopes for it being a big hit and revitalizing the genre?
>>737273121It will be unfathomable garbageRiot is only capable of copying from their bettersAnyone expecting anything besides either a WoW, FFXIV, GW2, or Korean-slop clone (or some combination) is going to be disappointed.
>>737273061
>>737273292They should copy New World but better.
>>737273890
>>737273292but would they have the balls to copy oldschool mmo design?
>>737273121Riot is known for PvP games. I'm not expecting the MMO to be a PvE themepark WoW clone. It will probably be a lot like Albion Online.
>>737274379I disagree here. They already have multiple successful PvP games with a big e-sports scene. I believe that the MMO will be an attempt at grabbing the PvE crowd.I think that Riot knows pretty well that PvP focused games in today's day and age are better done with the e-sports format. A MMO with focus on PvP would not attract the PvP players of today, they would just go play League of Legends
>>737273121It's probably going to be shit. They will fall into the themepark trap and copy WoW. The only thing unique about it will be the setting
If Riot goes with the themepark WoW FF XIV clone design, will they put the game on consoles?
>>737260942What vertical progression has GW2 had? Stats still have the same cap as they always did. Legendaries have the same stats as exotics, they just have the convenience of being able to swap to the specific stat you want for your build.
>>737274879MMO PvP is really good. I don't think Creep Farm Simulator 1 and 2 are enough to keep players satisfied if people are all playing X MMO.
>>737247708>Trinity.I think it's won.
