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He's right you know, people talk about how great Oot is, you ask them why, they say you can do the fire temple before the forest temple! Botw embodies that philosophy as a core tenet.

> Well, I do think we as people have a tendency to want the thing that we don't currently have

Yeah I was sure wishing they had made a racing game instead while I was play OoT

>>737254680
>you can do the fire temple before the forest temple!
But you still have to do both, whereas in BotW nothing is required to bumrush Ganon, so the game cannot gate any kind of content leading to a homogenizing effect.

>>737254680
I can explain what makes OoT great, AT LENGTH. You can interview me any time.

>>737254568
Aonuma is a subhuman. Twilight princess was dogshit. All of his games are polarizing

>>737255029
It doesn't really matter because Aonuma will be gone soon anyway. All the old guard is retiring.

>>737255463
but you had to do all the dungeons in TP!

>>737255528
>Aonuma will be gone soon anyway
He's only 63 and in good health. So we're stuck with him unless the next Zelda totally bombs which is unlikely to happen.

>>737254568
>Developer: Please Mr Aonuma, let me give this enemy a limp to signify his leg is a weak spot
>Or an exposed heart or lump
>Or a bandage, that's pretty telegraphed
>Aonuma: *clubs developer over the head with a billy club and puts them in a large cauldron filled with broth and bones*

I don't care if there's a set path or not, I just want cool interior exploration. If I can walk into a giant locale that takes as long to solve as your average survival horror game then I'm good, and if you're gonna touch yourself over having a world the size of a modern Zelda game then I would like to be able to find multiple such instances for my troubles. The overworld can stay, but if I climb that mountain and go down some stairs at the top I better be in that fucking place for the next 6 goddamn hours.

>>737254568
Tears of the Kingdom is an excellent game, I can enjoy Tears of the Kingdom and still think the dungeons were too easy/ short though.

>>737255829
holy based

>>737255998
Basically my take, the sense of scale is incredible, but everywhere I go is so one note. Hopefully the next game gives more attention to the individual places and the stuff done there, feel free to retain the size of the world it's great.

based
old zelda 'fans' just want the same OoT clones and gameplay

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I want both
BotW
>physics
>climbing
>no loading zones (excluding shrines)
>smarter enemy AI (somewhat)
OoT
>more thematic
>better music
>key items / progression
>enemy diversity
>smaller map
>no washed-out filter
>maybe a cute little companion

fuck this either/or mentality.

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Daily reminder, i your were one of those obnoxius faggots who shat on the oot formula for being boring and stale back in the day, you dont have any rights to complain about the botw formula now. You got exactly what you deserved

>>737256541
>wanting the companion
Navi is the worst thing about OoT.

>>737256551
I didn't shit on that formula. OoT, MM and TP are the best games in the series. That said, I do believe they've taken it as realistically far as they're going to, and there's no need to go back to it. I don't mind the general direction of games like ALBW and EoW at all, I think those show more discipline and intrigue than BotW and TotK do.

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>>737256662
Why? Navi doesn't stop you for anything. The only obnoxious partner has been Fi, but if they removed the invasive handholding she would have been fine. Having a partner is great, fuck you.

>>737254568
Aonuma is the biggest hack in gaming. The Zelda series used to be the most respected series in gaming by a long shot in the 90s. Now it's a joke because of him. It all started to go wrong when wind waker was announced in 2001

>>737256551
There's a difference in quality between games like ALTTP and OoT and other shitty garbage games like TP and SS. Shut the fuck up about Zelda formula, faggot

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>>737256981
cry me a river

this quote doesnt apply when we have been to the other grass, and it truly was yes, quite greener

>>737256896
There have been good companions - Tatl, Midna, Ghost Zelda - but Navi is boring as a character, tedious as a mechanic, and wholly unnecessary if you're over the age of 10.

Honestly always a huge red flag when devs say things like this, especially nintendo. If they're bringing stuff like this up, it's already a huge topic internally which means they already have the feedback and they've already decided they don't give a fuck.

>>737254568
Grim.

>>737257130
As a character, sure. Tatl has more character. Navi is just your mature guide. But tedious? I don't get that. Besides going HEY LISTEN some times (really not as often as people meme about it), she just offers optional info and technically serves as the z-target. The same as Tatl. Maybe she's not so amazing as the others, but I fail to see what there is to hate or dislike. You make it sound like you actively wish she was removed. Makes no sense to me, especially if you like Tatl. She's not a pivotal character but she adds a bit of flair and has some story presence.

>>737256896
Every time you push Z to target on an enemy you hear “HEY” or “LOOK”.

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>>737254568
>people just have nostalgia bias and won't accept newer things
>also these games are totally supposed to be Zelda 1-likes, which is suddenly supposed to be the sole gold standard of the series now

>>737257951
WATCH OUT
Every time.

Is it really that hard to make an open world Zelda but with OoT style dungeons?
Shrines are gay.

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>>737257951
>still complaining about HEY LISTEN
It's not fucking 2009 anymore. We can retire this meme.

>>737258115
Thing about BotW’s core design is it has the climbing so you can go anywhere from the onset. Zelda games before it was all about having items unlock more areas to explore.
I recommend anybody replaying the old games to use a Tracker to try to collect every chest, doesn’t even have to be for a randomizer. You learn a lot.
I’ve even 100%’d BotW, while I love it, I fear that it’s set the expectation that every game after has to at least be that large. Which is why TotK happened.

>>737258240
Went from “it didn’t happen” to “it did happen but it was a long time ago so don’t complain about it.”
We should say the same about the Holocaust desu.

>>737257226
They'll give a fuck again when sales start dropping again. TotK's sales and relevancy legs were already dogshit compared to BotW's.
>>737258115
Not at all. EPD just refuses to because they now treat their flagship games as physics toys with an emphasis on le player expression.
>>737257951
The constant sound bites from the Sages in TotK are no better. Tulin's is the worst because his is the most used power by far and, even when you have his avatar after beating the Wind Temple, it still makes his awful fucking whistle sound whenever you use it.

>>737255457
The floor is yours...

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>>737254568
>Remove huge labyrinth-like dungeons full of monsters and puzzles in favor 4 short, barebone dungeons in a 100+ hour game
>replace good pacing with lots time spent traveling through empty spaces and doing tons of busywork with recycled content
>Replace story and progression with a bunch of cutscenes scattered everywhere out of order, with the majority of them taking place in the past.
>"uh actually you don't want those things back"
I'll be nice and cut him some slack, obviously he's going to shill his latest game instead of admitting "yeah we did erase a bunch of beloved elements from this franchise, didn't we?" I distinctly remember after Skyward Sword they said motion controlled swordplay was here to stay. So much for that. If they have any sense they can acknowledge that you can build a vast, immersive world around an actual Zelda game, rather than replacing it with it.

>>737257951
Better than most modern AAA games where hitting the lock-on button gets you Witcher Yellow Paint Focus M Vision along with a bass boom that blows out your eardrums.

>>737257965
>also these games are totally supposed to be Zelda 1-likes, which is suddenly supposed to be the sole gold standard of the series now
I hate when people make that retarded argument. As if A Link to the Past wasn't 35 fucking years ago and only xoomer zoomer poomer oomers care about it. As if the vast majority of the series doesn't owe a ton to ALTTP.

>>737255528
Good thing Fujibayashi is only 50 and will train the younglings then.

>>737255528
>aonuma aonuma aonuma
FUJI GUY HAS BEEN DIRECTOR FOR THE LAST 3 GAMES,

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>>737254568
>But I also think that with the freedom players have in the more recent games in the series...there still is a set path, it just happens to be the path that they chose.
actual retarded take that i did not expect from someone like Aonuma
give me my fucking progressively complex puzzles reliant on literally ANYTHING that isn't already provided by the shrine and the starting tutorial holy FUCK I DO NOT WANT TO BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE EVERYTHING I ENCOUNTER THE FIRST TIME I ENCOUNTER IT

>>737255998
Tears of the Kingdom is an excellent game... if I had never played botw and didn't already experience 85% of what the game offered 6 years ago.

>>737254568
Only retarded N64babies think railroaded lock and key braindead puzzles with formulaic dungeons like OoT was good design. No one cares what they think, and that's a wonderful thing. EoW already showed that they can do BotW style emergent physics based gameplay with a LttP style map. OoT "structure" always has been and always will be complete fucking dogshit.

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>>737258904
He's producer. And producers are still involved with game design, especially at Nintendo.

>>737256272
nu-Zelda fans want everything to be open world shit where you walk 50 feet to find bokoblins, the 50th Korok under a rock, a guy holding a sign physics puzzle, and a shrine with 1 to 3 puzzles, repeat for 150 hours.

A big open world is fine but give us real dungeons, give us a good story (do NOT repeat the flashback shit), give us a sense of progression, make it feel like an adventure instead of like you're being kept on the loot hamster wheel to collect more weapons that break in 30 hits.

Most importantly, NO CLIMBING OR GLIDING EVERYWHERE. Make me walk, make me work for it.

OOT/MM/TP/HW type art style would be nice too.

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oh godfuckingdammit the goalpost-moving "nobody liked dungeons anyway" LARPing retard is back again

>>737256541
I don't even want the climbing, it limits puzzle and terrain variety, and for what? Wasting time watching Link slowly climb a cliff? Which also promotes more endless, empty wilderness with nothing to do.

>>737259227
Just make unscalable walls which needs special glove items. Where is your creativity?

>>737258779
To be honest, when I replayed OoT a couple months ago, I didn’t even realize it most of the time.
>>737258486
On the note about Sages in TotK, that reminds me of one main criticism I had about it. It repeated the whole “memories” aspect with the Tears, but done worse.
BotW’s memories were related to the location to piece together what happened. TotK’s didn’t really have a tie to the location and it feels weird seeing them out of order. Yes, I know one autist will bring up how the locations go “clockwise according to the map in the temple”, but no normal player is going to realize that and you’ll see most talk about what I did.
Oh and also each dungeon repeating the Sage’s backstory of them fighting Ganondorf 4 times. What the fuck was that shit.

>>737256551
It was all because Skyward Sword was a really shitty traditional Zelda game, and convinced everyone it was time to embrace open world slop. Yes I said slop, I don't give a fuck if I used the buzzword. FUCK. OPEN. WORLD. GARBAGE. I'M SICK OF IT.

>>737259261
Or bring back the Hookshot/Clawshot.

>>737254680
Difference is, the "fire temple" and "forest temple" in botw and botw dlc are fucking dogshit
I'll use the freedom that botw gave me and just go play a better fucking game instead

>>737256780
I haven't played EoW because I hate the art style and don't want to play Zelda as a summoner, but it does make me hope since it was leaning more towards traditional Zelda. But that could be because it's a 2D Zelda game, so I don't want to get my hope sup.

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I coveted that greener grass, I suppose.

>>737258367
We shouldn't, because it didn't happen.

>>737257130
Even Miyamoto hated Navi. He's based, no one is allowed to shit on him because technically the last game he directed was Super Mario 64.

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Why do OoTsnoys pretend dungeons were good? Nearly every discussion on the older games mentions the hatred of things like water temples and bloated or absent minded puzzles. They were always bad design in general.

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>>737259420
I really liked Echoes of Wisdom. It’s basically using all the different summons as items and it’s cute.
It controls really nice too. I played through it twice, 100% (because of autismo because Stamps order in the Stamp book). Pic is the internal sort order, there’s 5 of each, and I mapped them out.
https://imgur.com/o0RKDbD
I basically collected them in the sort order five times lol

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>>737254568
classic

>>737257226
For what it's worth, this quote is 7 months after Tears of the Kingdom came out, it's not recent. I don't know how much that would make a difference though.

>>737259292
You are the minority. If the old formula was so much better why was the popularity of the franchise nose diving with every game before botw?

>>737259261
but that would gate the player's progression which is a big evil no-no in nuzelda

>>737254680
Actually, I like Ocarina Of Time because the pacing, soundtrack, and atmosphere in that game is immaculate in a way few games made today, even Zelda games, can manage. The only part that sucks is the Water Temple. I don't feel like I'm in a sandbox video game developers made for me when I play OOT, I feel like I'm on an adventure in a *world* that would exist outside Link's presence, with NPCs that doo a good job at selling that they living their own lives independent of Link.

>>737259275
It really is impressive that BotW's wholesale world/cast reuse not only caused almost all the issues I thought it would, but also caused more I didn't think Nintendo would've been brazen enough to do. I really didn't expect the entire game to rehash so many plot beats and concepts from BotW.
>instead of ancient tech being at the heart of the setting and your abilities, it's... ancient tech from a different race of people
>instead of Ganon, it's... GanonDORF (it's also ass-backwards to start with unleashed mindless beast Ganon and THEN go to human Ganondorf)
>instead of going to dungeons where you activate 5 doohickeys in Hebra, Eldin, Gerudo, and Lanayru, you... go to dungeons where you activate 4/5 doohickeys in Hebra, Eldin, Gerudo, and Lanayru
>instead of going into blue Shrines for physics engine puzzles, you go into... green Shrines for physics engine puzzles
>instead of the story being flashbacks showing Zelda in the past, it's... flashbacks showing Zelda in the super past
>instead of the final fight phase being a borderline cinematic victory lap against an evil beast Ganon, it's... a borderline cinematic victory lap against an evil dragon Ganon
>>737259672
It came out soon after the Game Awards where he was visibly upset about losing GotY, too.

>>737254568
All he had to do was keep the open world, free reign aspect of BotW and have moments where the game restrains you with the dungeons. Have the best of both traditional Zelda, and nu-Zelda, but nah they did BotW 2.0 bolts and nuts edition.

The island in BotW was one of the highlights because it stripped you of everything, why couldn't they apply that concept with dungeons or al least make it so certain abilities can't be used? Just have ultrahand and fuse.

>>737258486
>TotK's sales and relevancy legs were already dogshit compared to BotW's.
20+ million is still nothing to sneeze at but I hope it showed them that they're not automatically guaranteed success just for releasing more open world sandbox shit, and sales will continue to decline if they don't try. botw somehow outsold tears one quarter, and it's not like the game was heavily discounted.

>>737259587
>water temple was needlessly esoteric
>some puzzles in dungeons were push block shoot eye
>this means all dungeons are always bad

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>>737254568
I find Anoumas candor here annoying because he can do all that old styled Zelda stuff he just needs to find a way to make the items available to you thats not a shitty fucking tablet.

>>737254568
I did not care for all of the empty open space in the world of BotW

>>737259867
And don’t forget about the price bump to $70. That’s hella good.

>>737259721
because it was stagnating
open world with proper dungeons would be perfect, but nintendo overcorrected and gave us open world with one-off physics gimmick shrines that you can do in any order and meme-mechanic """dungeons""" that only require one themed extra item and can still be heavily cheesed with wallclimbing and gliding
also
>popularity equals quality

>>737259721
If the new formula is so much better why did the very next game drop by a whopping 10 million sales?

>>737254568
I think people just need to realize that they tried something new and then it took them forever to do a sequel that was never supposed to be different from it. Yes the exploration focus is not going anywhere now but in a different setting they may just establish a better plot and dungeons, as long if they admit to themselves that unlocking story bits and item abilities should have a structure again.

>>737260030
>>737260048
>Move those goalposts!
>Deflect with shitpost takes!
>this sales data proves everything!
>popularity is meaningless!
Come on now really?.jpg

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>>737258779
I hate when games insist having gameplay mechanics just for the sake of variety instead actually making those gameplay mechanics fun. Who the fuck actually enjoys spending hours using Geralt's druggie vision to follow some blood stains while he talks to himself? Focus on the actual fun aspects of the game. Nintendo solved this in the 90s, then regressed and added the same retarded busywork to their games to artificially inflate the game's length.

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>>737254568
botw making the game open world did massive damage to story.
you just wander until you reach 1 of 4 towns, hear the small amount of story and do a toddler tier dungeon tied to it and that's it.
the biggest zelda games ever are actually the shortest games in the series.

and of course there's other flaws like durability, the lack of enemy variety, minimal music and lazy ubisoft towers.

I feel that people who like open world zeldas are the type of people who want to create their own fun.
and the people that like traditional 3d zeldas like videogames.

>>737260401
what goalposts? what shitpost takes? i'm literally just describing the design of the games

>>737258486
Every single Zelda sequel released on the same console sells less than the first one.
Do you think MM sold like shit too?

>>737258970
He's right about there being a set path, and the set path is just shit. And the game letting you do almost anything almost out of order completely removes any sense of progression in terms of the intensity of the dungeon's puzzles or enemies, if it actually had any. Sadly a lot of normalfags and faggots on here think it's worth sacrificing a properly structured game by just letting you do anything out of order. Open world games don't just fucking let you do the story out of order. You can go almost anywhere in games like Elder Scrolls and GTA, but you can't just go straight to the final quest/mission if you want to.

>>737260765
yeah but it also didn't take longer to make than its source game nor cost a fortune (it was famously made on a much smaller budget), yet somehow managed to still have an original world lmao

>>737259798
>The only part that sucks is the Water Temple.
filtered

>>737260834
BOTW only needed 2 million to make profit, I'm sure they're totally disappointed at those 20 million lmao.

>>737259123
It would be better if you had to walk 100+ feet in the next game, actually.

>>737260928
so you admit TotK was low-effort trash

>>737259019
Even so, a director still has the most creative input on a game. And it's too convenient to assume every bad aspect of a game is Aonuma's fault, and every good aspect was thanks Fuji, which there aren't a lot of honestly. Aonuma was director on Oot, MM, WW, TP: games I LOVED. Fuji was director of SS, botw, totk: games I was DISAPPOINTED by. I think that's pretty simple pattern recognition.

>>737260445
I liked both, where do I fit in

>>737259149
>give us a good story
Please tell me you think OoT or TP had a good story so I can laugh.

>>737259149
That's the issue, for the average normalfag they just loved the big immersive world and how interactive it is. That does not have to get in the way of a traditional Zelda game, those elements can coexist. But for some reason removing the good elements of traditional Zelda is somehow the right move.

>>737254568
2D Zeldas are all better than 3D Zeldas.

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>>737258115
Weird Zelda fans say stuff like this, but Metroid fans say NOOOO YOU CAN'T DO THAT. Super weird shit.

>>737258772
>replace pacing with pacing
The issue is you don't actually want pacing, you want rocket ship to the set pieces.

>>737261042
Please tell me you think botw and tears anime garbage mess of a story was better than Oot and TP's simple, but satisfying story so I can call you a retarded nigger.

>>737254568
This is the most retarded dogshit I have ever read, no wonder the games are fucking shit

>>737257965
Something was lost that the franchise desperately needed after Ocarina of Time. It's about time they started to get it back. Fags act like Zelda 1 is bad but Oot is god tier, but they're in the same camp, and we only recently escape the gravitational pull of the linear set piece fagging the franchise was stuck in.

>>737259149
>Make me walk, make me work for it.
Hella gay, super hella gay. You can walk all you want in Botw and Totk buddy.

>>737261186
>Oot and TP's simple, but satisfying story
Thanks for the laugh.
>complaining about "anime" and pretending OoT wasn't anime but rather a classic western fantasy story
You're the kind of retard who thinks it was a subtle coming of age story and not just a shitty story with flat characters that don't exist except to dump exposition and jerk off Link. No, Link making one shocked face doesn't mean there's depth to anything, and the series was always anime shit. OoT was even supposed to have dating sim mechanics. The girls in particular are all written that way and are terribly shallow. You're just a retard who thinks a thing you played when you were 7 is inherently good.

>>737260972
>Aonuma's been trying to upend Zelda conventions from the very moment he was given control of the series, with Wind Waker going for a markedly cartoony direction against Miyamoto's wishes and immediately pulling "let the past die, kill it if you have to" faggotry with its story
>Twilight Princess was a game made begrudgingly as surface-level fanservice since WW's sales were underwhelming and the three other toon-styled games before TP were outright flops
>he's the one who made the games massively railroaded, with SS (directed by Fuji) being the logical extreme of progression design that began in Wind Waker (directed by Aonuma)
Thinking that Aonuma's hands are clean in the series' trajectory is fucking retarded.

>>737259807
>this sequel.. is made of sequel..

>>737261370
>OOT story is bad
nta but i'm sorry it wasn't CINEMATIC enough for your modern tastes

>>737259721
uhhhhhhhhh shut up!

>>737259261
Unscalable walls are still limiting. There has to be some logical reason to why they're unscaleable that makes sense to the player. Are they just giong to put ice, wet, or metal walls everywhere? Again it just limits the freedom of what of kind puzzles they make, and also hurts the variety of environments. Do we really want 150 shrines again with the same goddamn design and music? I don't. And again, what's the point? What is so fun about slowly climbing walls? Limitations are what make video games fun, what gives them challenge. You remove all those limitations and you're just left with a sandbox where you're asked to make your own fun instead of the developers making a fine-tuned experience for you.

>>737261408
It was lacking the flat union voice acting of BotW and TotK.

>>737259839
That would be ruinous to the very idea of Botw. Unless the dungeons embrace the free form creative solutions that the physics offer, it's going to be that gay Oot clone shit that stagnated the franchise again. To hell with that.

>>737261408
>i'm sorry it wasn't CINEMATIC enough for your modern tastes
That's a nice strawman, but my favorite story and setting from 1998 that is still one of my all time favorites is Thief. OoT is simply bad, and you're a faggot.

>>737261521
you're gonna have to explain how it's bad

>>737260048
Show me a sequel that did better than the prequel, go on I'll wait.

>>737260445
>WONT SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE STORY
No? Zelda has never had a good story, and bogging the gameplay down with it would be fucking retarded.

>>737261509
>the kind of "people" that jerk off OoT and get mad at BotW are the kind of "people" that listen to dubbed audio
Explains a lot, actually.

>>737260787
>do almost anything almost out of order completely removes any sense of progression
dumb, you are dumb

>>737259798
>>737255408
>>737259340
Agree with this but what gets me about nu zelda is that awful item selection scrolling menu.

>>737258115
I love the shrines. They let designers flex their muscles over and over again to results that can vary from annoying to incredible. There can be a problem that arises when the amount of shrines takes away from the quality of the main dungeons, and I think BOTW really suffered for this, less so TOTK. But I do think that, if you cut the number of shrines in half and really ratcheted up the intensity of the main dungeons, there'd be far, far less complaints. Plus, there's a reasonable argument that the number of shrines in the game makes fast travel too painless and easy, making exploration not worthwhile.
>>737261481
>Do we really want 150 shrines again with the same goddamn design and music?
I want like 75 of them or so. But yeah bitching about the shrines is embarrassing, they're some of the best additions to the Zelda formula in years.
>You remove all those limitations and you're just left with a sandbox where you're asked to make your own fun instead of the developers making a fine-tuned experience for you.
What you're asking sounds more like an Uncharted-esque linear adventure game and I think that's the last thing Zelda needs as a franchise.

>>737259721
Twilight Princess went on to be the best selling game in the franchise. Then Skyward Sword released on the same console and sold half as much, because it was just mediocre and looked fucking ugly. And do you know why botw sold so much? Because it's a fucking Switch game, almost every Nintendo franchise sold way more than it ever has. Mario Kart sold 3x as much as the next game, as did, Smash, Animal Crossing, and Odyssey. Mario Party sold double the amount of the next best selling game. Almost every Nintendo franchise was record breaking success on Switch.

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>>737261553
You're gonna have to read
>>737261370
>Link making one shocked face doesn't mean there's depth to anything
>flat characters that don't exist except to dump exposition and jerk off Link.
>the series was always anime shit. OoT was even supposed to have dating sim mechanics. The girls in particular are all written that way and are terribly shallow.
I'll save us some time with the next 2 posts. You'll bring up the bottom of the well, and I'll post this image in reply.

>>737261186
NTA, but Zelda's memories in Totk is 100% better than the story Oot told.

>>737261481
>Again it just limits the freedom of what of kind puzzles they make
it's literally adding design freedom because there are more variables and types of obstacles to work with
reminder that the current paradigm is
>you can climb anything unless it's ice or raining
>if you run out of stamina you can consume one of your 50 stamina meals or elixirs to keep going
>the game lets you access climbing gear, but it doesn't fucking matter because you can just consume stamina foods whenever you want
>the game lets you access sticky climbing gear so you don't slip, but it doesn't fucking matter because you can just glide to wherever you're trying to go
hard obstacles that require key items make the game more interesting and make progressing through the game and acquiring gear meaningful

>>737254568
Oh fuck off. I never wanted Zelda to be open world and enjoyed the linear narratives it offered. I recognized open world for the empty husk that it'd be.

>>737260048
Majora's Mask sold less than OOT
SS sold less than TP
Zelda 2 sold less than 1

It happens every single time, has nothing to do with quality.
If anything, TOTK had the softest drop lol.

>>737261408
It was too cinematic for the franchise, and it was disastrous.

>>737257951
This was a normie complaint. Wasn't even that bad. At least compared to "focus M" stuff you see nowadays

>>737261384
dumb to blame Aonuma when the series conventions held each entry back until he finally tried something new and it outsold the whole franchise combined

>>737259807
>It came out soon after the Game Awards where he was visibly upset about losing GotY, too.
Thanks Geoff, your faggoty ass WOKE awards show just might possibly save this franchise.

>>737261787
>the depth is uhhhhh Sheik's sophomoric poetry when she gives you fast travel points

>>737261930
notice how you only talk about sales

>>737261481
>Limitations are what make video games fun
no
>what gives them challenge
no

>>737257951
People actually cared about that? I thought they were only annoyed about Navi's "talk to me!" prompt, which I easily ignored.

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>>737254568
>there still is a set path, it just happens to be the path that they chose
He thinks this sounds deep and profounds, but really it's just going full retard.

>>737261930
something new is when aping western open world games popular on PS3 and early PS4

>>737261787
>game from 30 years ago isn't a DEEP EMOTIONAL NARRATIVE
and?
thief's story is far more intricate but the presentation is dogshit
they're both good stories

>>737261679
You don't understand anon! in Japanese, Ganon uses this kanji which means something slightly varied to the English translation! coveting wind in Japan means allowing someone to sex your wife!

>>737254568
>there still is a set path, it just happens to be the path that they chose
absolutely ridiculous bullshit. aonuma does not play video games if he thinks this is not a shit-eating retarded thing to say.

>>737261751
My objective critique would be that you could combined several shrines together, maybe hide them a bit better, and the ones that you go into and get a reward, that could just be a statue to interact with so there's no double loading screen.

>>737262186
>aonuma does not play video games if he thinks this is not a shit-eating retarded thing to say.
He famously didn't beat Zelda 1 (the game he pretends is the holy scripture that alone informed BotW/TotK).

>>737261787
>OoT was even supposed to have dating sim mechanics
>The Ruto, Saria, Malon, Zelda, and Mido love interest mechanic was going to be canon

>>737261754
>because it was just mediocre and looked fucking ugly
it required a new accessory you retard

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>>737261370
>The girls in particular are all written that way and are terribly shallow
Try going around a real girl.
They're poorly written and terribly shallow.

>>737262210
Instead of getting the spirit coins or whatever you’d call them that you can trade in for heart or stamina containers, would you rather just receive the heart or stamina containers themselves? Or like half of a container?

>>737259981
You would think that wageslave normalfags that come home to play video games for 2-3 hours before they have to sleep would prefer games to value their time instead of wandering around an empty open world, but it's the opposite, they fucking eat that shit up because "muh immersion! the bigger empty space the better!" They love watching videos of ultra hand contraptions and saying "this game is amazing!" then never make anything like that in the game themselves.

>>737261408
/v/ has been taken over by leftoid zoomers brain poisoned by the vaccine. They just don't understand why nu zelda fails compared to old zelda these day.

>>737261812
Few holes in your theory, let me reiterate the chemistry system in a potential next entry against the backdrop of your examples.

>can't climb ice or rain
Use a fire arrow or sword and melt the ice to climb it, drink a slip resistant potion for the rain.
>you can refill stamina
this isn't a problem the game has
>multiple options
also a strength of the game
>just describing good things about the game
wow

>>737256662
Some Asian lady speaking like three words in English is the worst part of the game? You sound like a faggot

>>737262112
>but the presentation is dogshit
The presentation of the story is done via background details inside of levels that are up to the player to find. That's a good thing.
>they're both good stories
No, OoT is not a good story by any stretch and you're a retarded strawmanning faggot for trying to turn this into a "You just like modern heavy handed AAA stories" thing.

>>737262027
as opposed to? your retarded taste? your illogical arguments?
Lets just skip over the rigmarole of
>game bad
>game good

>>737255408
I think my only annoyance with the option to bumrush Ganon or not in BotW is that there's no way to have a fight against him at full power without also doing the boss rush against the bosses you skipped beforehand. Taking out the bosses beforehand also rips off a massive chunk of his health bar which is cool, but makes the fight a little TOO easy IMO.

>>737262316
>fiction should be as shallow and disappointing as the real world
What's it like being gay AND retarded?

>>737262071
It's not meant to be deep and profound, retard. It's literally the game's design.
>"I uhhhh think the games were better when there was just one way to go"
>Well, you are free to go one way.

>>737262489
You appeal to popularity, a popularity that came overwhelmingly from people who didn't engage with Zelda (or likely Nintendo in general going off of Switch sales figures) before BotW.

>>737261408
OoT and Starfox 64 are two of the most cinematic Nintendo games. Anon is just retarded.

>>737261120
Minish cap wouldn't hold up well these days

>>737261639
>No? Zelda has never had a good story, and bogging the gameplay down with it would be fucking retarded.
>the story doesn't matter
>the dungeons don't matter
>enemy variety doesn't matter
>direction swings in combat doesn't matter
do you really really just like grass and gluing shit together?

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>>737262338
I mean if I were going into more nuanced subjective ideas, I would introduce more types of things to use the orbs for, like permanent walking or climbing speed increases. Health and stamina are abstractions, I would appreciate diving deeper into the raw stats IMHO.

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Any traditionally linear game that goes open world always fails to have the setting of deliver the same experience as it did previously.

FFX, FFXII, FFXIII compared to FFXV. Notice how FFXV is just copy paste? Too much freedom confuses devs for some reason.

Same with Zelda.

>>737262601
I played it last year for the first time and it was a great game.

>>737262558
You appeal to unpopularity, you got fucking mogged by people who enjoy the game while you mald.

>>737260972
>OoT
Had 5 directors
>MM
Codirected w/ Koizumi
>WW
Has the worst 3d dungeons out of all pre-botw games
>TP
Most derivative out of them all. Feels literally like a remake of OoT and to some extent ALttP. Also laid the foundations for everything wrong that SS did.

>>737259807
>>instead of ancient tech being at the heart of the setting and your abilities, it's... ancient tech from a different race of people
The half-assed explanation of why all the ancient Shiekah tech is gone between games was retarded too and felt like they slapped together 5 minutes before launch.
>Oh hey all the guardians, the giant beasts, and all the ancient tech that was in Hyrule a few months ago?
>Yeah it all just vanished. Completely gone. Literally disintegrated off screen when no one was looking. We don't know why it just did.
I'm not even joking, that is literally the in-game reason all the Sheikah tech is gone.

>>737262636
Botw and Totk are the best games in the franchise, I am sorry you are unable to enjoy them.

>>737262808
Witcher 3 had a brilliant transition to open world.

>>737262636
>items were always bad anyway
>dungeons were always bad anyway
>story was always bad anyway
>progression was always bad anyway
>music was always bad anyway
>the green hat and tunic as the iconic look was always bad anyway
wow the more you look into what Wildfags have to say, the more it seems almost like they simply didn't like the fucking series before
>>737262808
The problem isn't even going open world itself, it's that most devs who transition between gameplay philosophies think that almost everything from the old way has to be thrown out and treated like an embarrassment to the brand.

>>737261853
There's a valid reason for all of those underperforming. MM was very unconventional and divisive despite being an amazing game, it lacked the broader appeal of a grand adventure game like Oot. SS just looked like fucking shit and a lot of people were turned off by motion controls, and it released at the tail end of the Wii and a game like that looked too archaic for 2011. Zelda 2 was a side scroller and played entirely differently from Zelda 1, and has always been divisive. Why did TP go on to be the best selling Zelda game till botw? (If you count the GC sales, which I do because they released a month apart) The Wii's large install base was definitely a factor, but also because it was a Zelda game with broad appeal. It was big game, an epic adventure, with cool realistic visuals that gave Lord of the Rings vibes, which was hot at the time.

>>737262851
Why would the divine beasts and sheika shrines be around, what is your explanation for this after they are no longer useful?

>>737262043
Alright if you're that retarded you're not even worth arguing with. This is like video games 101.

>>737262964
Oot was a pretty good game 30 years ago, that's probably the bedrock of what us Botw chads think.

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>>737262470
Oot is one of the few stories in video games where time travel is good and furthermore the story alludes to the unconscious knowledge of Europeans vs Sand tribes that we all resonate with. The goodwill of the superior being taken advantage of by a rogue from the East. Then we get MM which was even more phenomenal based on the magic flute by Mozart. The story in the next games take the cheap path
>Everything is already destroyed so no need for building an active living world

>>737261408
It's funny because OoT is the original cinematic moviegame shit.

>>737263065
It's not, you just don't understand gaming as well as you think you do.

>>737256541
foggy washed out gay anime slop on the right btw

>>737262808
>FFX, FFXII, FFXIII compared to FFXV. Notice how FFXV is just copy paste? Too much freedom confuses devs for some reason.
FFVI is the most jerked off FF game by oldfags, and it had a completely open second half with tons of optional content. Perfect comparison, really, because Zelda also has young millennial fans pretending to be oldfags that didn't play the good 2D games but pretend to be series experts.

>>737262554
The issue with that is the main path is barebones and garbage, they put all their resources into the open world and shrines. If you took only botw and tear's main story and cut the rest out, it would be a terrible Zelda game compared to the rest of the series, it can't stand on its own. I would say it's just a terrible Zelda game regardless but I'm trying to be reasonable here.

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>>737262851
imagine the genuine pants-shitting terror if there were a few Guardians in obscure parts of the Depths after being assured early on that they were all gone or repurposed into the Skyview Towers, and now enhanced by Gloom and with an off-key rendition of their original theme, the one time asset flipping would've been cool and they refused to take it
>>737263019
If TotK is going to be a direct sequel set in the same world as its direct predecessor and just a few years later, then casually and wholly handwaving a major fucking part of the worldbuilding established by the predecessor is a fucking stupid decision ALMOST LIKE IT SHOULD'VE BEEN A NEW WORLD OH MY FUCKING GOD

>>737263085
>Oot is one of the few stories in video games where time travel is good
No, it's very poorly done and Ganon's "reign of terror" amounts to a couple of desolate streets with corpses. There's absolutely nothing interesting or profound done with the concept.
>and furthermore the story alludes to the unconscious knowledge of Europeans vs Sand tribes that we all resonate with.
No matter how hard you try pushing this idea, it'll never be a European/Germanic fairy tale style story. It's all incredibly shallow and surface level visual theming which is par for the course when it comes to most Japanese media.

>>737262997
TP wasn't a direct sequel like all the others.
Much like BOTW it was also the big launch title of a very popular console.

>>737263292
Don't agree that it should have been a new world, do agree that gloom guardians would have been a sick idea.

>>737262416
>here are some problems with your design philosophy if the next Zelda has completely different chemistry mechanics from BOTW and TOTK
ok?
>>you can refill stamina
>this isn't a problem the game has
yes it is
stamina replenishing foods and critters are found practically everywhere, constantly, and usually in quantities of more than 1
cooking is free
your food inventory is enormous
food consumption is instant and does not interrupt animations or actions
one of the CORE ways the game gates you at ALL is through stamina... it's such a core resource gate that stamina is one of the TWO things you exchange your Lights of Blessing for...
and yet it doesn't matter AT ALL because you can just cook up some elixirs in the first hour of the game and glide continuously from a sky island all the way to the ground
every limit the game has is surmounted by grinding a resource no matter how much or how little progress you've made
and the funniest part is that all the buff armors in the game are expensive, and the best way to farm them is to cook food and sell it
you grind to farm up consumables to bypass checks, and you ALSO grind to farm consumables to acquire permanent items that let you bypass the same checks
it's a fucking stupid design that appeals to CONTENT CONSOOOOOMERS and makes everything a monotonous meaningless slog
>multiple options
all the options are the same! everything is stamina or a proxy for stamina! hearts or a proxy for hearts! oh boy i get a free dish with the standard regional elemental buff for sticking ANOTHER wood panel under this guy's unbalanced sign! CONTENT!

for the record i actually think TOTK is quite good, i'm playing it right now and having a great time, it's a good and fun game moment to moment
but the endless collectathon grind and the gimmick shrines nothing but hearts and ambers is simply not rewarding at all and it's a fucking SHAME that TOTK didn't solve or even attempt to address any of the obvious shortcomings of BOTW

>>737262668
At that point they might as well just make it an RPG and let you level up. I don't think that's what Zelda should turn into, but if they're insistent with the open world shit, I think those mechanics are kind of necessary. They have all these enemies scattered around the world and there's no benefit to engaging with them beyond some money and resources that quickly become pointless, or just because you feel like fighting.

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>>737254568
TLOZ's modern titles' biggest problem is casualization.

Even if they went back to a small overworld and big dungeons it wouldn't fix the lack of challenge of the combat and the puzzles. I'm not saying Zelda should be like Dark Souls or Elden Ring, but it shouldn't be a cakewalk either.

>>737261787
no but ganondorf is deep and poetic because he said he coveted that wind once or something its very deep ok!?!?

>>737262261
For $20 more it came with a brand new controller with built in wii motion plus. But thanks for giving even more reasoning for why it sold like shit.

>>737263352
Public reception of Hyrule during Ganon's reign of terror showed that kids back then were terrified. Remember the theorizing that that one knight was the poe collector?

>No matter how hard you try pushing this idea, it'll never be a European/Germanic fairy tale style story.

What do you think Hyrule is based off of? A blond haired blue eyed boy that doesn't fit in with a bunch of forest tribesmen? A desert boy born into a tribe of women and all the men are outsourced? Come on Anon why do you think it sold so well. The setting from Kakariko to Malons farm to the music you hear in young links Hyrule is all medieval European. The final piece is the main enemy being a desert dweller. Look at Berserk with Guts vs all those Muslims.

>>737254568
It's just the Zelda cycle at work like it's always been

>>737263705
botw was easily the most challenging zelda has been since the 2d days, and I say this as somebody otherwise very critical of that game

I think a lot of the exploration complaints would be alleviated if the glider was replaced by an upgradable hookshot with its own physics system. Something close to nearly Spider-Man like, or I suppose Bionic Commando. Being able to swing off of large structures to enter combat would be a really fun way to shake up the combat formula. Pulling enemies in or even swinging them over your head with the right upgrades, pulling yourself to larger enemies (this would also go great with a more involved climbing system for larger enemies, something akin to Dragon's Dogma/Shadow of the Colossus), and this would still gel perfectly fine with the "bullet time" mechanic when aiming in the air.

Gliding is cool at first but ultimately wore out its welcome, I want something that'll make the game feel faster, more dynamic. Plus, I was a huge fan of the increased air combat options in TOTK and want even more.

>>737263768
>kids back then were terrified
see
>>737261787

>Come on Anon why do you think it sold so well
It was the first popular game that went all in on casualization and treating the player like an idiot. That's why journalists and dumb kids liked it.

>>737263816
>botw was easily the most challenging zelda has been since the 2d days
Majora's Mask.

Maybe people can't say BOTW/TOTK were bad because they're the only games that stood up to Sonys big hitters. Maybe a lot of the anons who say they like nu zelda HAVE TO say they like nu zelda.

Akin to losing the battle to win the war.

>>737263947
I don't give a shit about console wars and most Nintendo games since the SNES have sucked. BotW was just a good game.

>>737261751
>I want like 75 of them or so. But yeah bitching about the shrines is embarrassing, they're some of the best additions to the Zelda formula in years.
Holy fuck, kys. The shrines are by far the worst idea BotW ran with and TotK even doubled down on them. Everthing about them is awful:
Terrible theme repeated 100 times and more, terrible puzzles, terrible forced cutscenes repeated ad infinitum, terrible rewards, terrible lore, terrible everything.
It's the laziest addition to the game, shortly behind Koroks and breakable weapons.
They were filler content in BotW but in TotK they had six fucking years and that's the best they came up with.

>>737263827
god you're such a holier than thou faggot
you're the first person in my entire life who i've mentally labelled as a snoy

>>737263292
>imagine the genuine pants-shitting terror if there were a few Guardians in obscure parts of the Depths after being assured early on that they were all gone or repurposed into the Skyview Towers
Would've been cool but their role got replaced by Gleeoks and Phantom Ganons being strewn around the maps. Not a bad trade either, once you learn you can parry guardian lasers they're less of a threat than normal enemies.

>>737255998
agree with this, botw and totk are brilliant
all we need is more expansive dungeons like old school 3d zelda

>>737263827
Those "dumb kids" grew up to expect standards while gamers like you probably support neil druckmanns "games shouldn't be fun" tlou2 slop

>>737264207
>god you're such a holier than thou faggot
And you're a retarded N64baby.
>you're the first person in my entire life who i've mentally labelled as a snoy
What a genuinely pathetic tendie. Sony has made nothing but gay garbage for well over a decade at this point and their last good console was the PS2. I couldn't care less about them. You're just a faggot with shit taste pushing your absurd headcanon about a shallow game that quite literally was designed with the express intent of being simple and "cinematic" which is exactly what you'll pretend it doesn't do but shitty modern games do.

>>737264380
Swing and a miss, retard.

>>737262414
botw was being shilled even more before the rona so I don't think that theory stands. but botw was more tolerable, until tears came along and doubled down on everything people hated about botw, and made people lose hope in the series.

>>737255463
Twilight princess was objectively good. Certainly better than Windwaker, SS or the switch Zelda’s

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>>737263520
>it's a good and fun game moment to moment
I think this sums up my issues with BotW and especially TotK - individually, moments are good. But they do not add up to a fulfilling game in the end (nor very cohesive in TotK's case, which is both ironic and fitting given its focus on indiscriminately sticking shit together).
>[don't feel like fishing a particular part to quote about meals]
They absolutely need to be redone if BotW continues to be the groundwork for future games. The idea I have is that you can make a bunch and put them in an inventory box style system that can be accessed from bonfires and beds (a mechanic that needed to be a thing in some capacity to begin with in these games), but you can only actually carry a limited usable amount with you at a time, and selecting them requires you to stand in place briefly to consume them to receive their effects (maybe with more potent meals requiring more chow time). I'm of two minds on how to handle slots:
>A: you have separate slots for meals accessed with D-pad down (though remapping whistling to something still acceptable will be a challenge), and you can get more from Hestu (give some of those extra Korok Seeds an actual use); probably have them cost more per-slot than the weapon slot add-ons
>B: you can substitute existing sword/shield slots for meals (BUT also give you more than four goddamn shield slots from the start)

>>737264437
Never was designed around cinematics. It was designed around MECHANICS.

>>737262836
Aligning your preferences with the hordes of retarded normalfags botw brought in is nothing to be proud of. They have shit taste.

>>737264164
Fuck off, man. The puzzles don't bat 1000 but they've got a lot of great ideas and fun mechanics and I'd much rather keep and iterate on them than just throw them out.

>>737261751
Once you do 5 shrines, it becomes boring. Not sure what the fuck you were smoking you faggot.

>>737264437
>a shallow game that quite literally was designed with the express intent of being simple and "cinematic"
it's mechanically a better game than most games that followed it in the last three fucking decades and its cinematic-ness just means that it ALSO executed its cutscenes really well
things don't have to be narratively complex and dark and mature and adultified to be good

>>737254568
>>Aonuma: Well, I do think we as people have a tendency to want the thing that we don't currently have
the total counter to the statement is, that we do have those things currently, just because you're not selling it doesn't mean we can't access what we have

>>737264693
I was smoking that shit that makes your attention span last longer than 15 minutes.

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The effects of "Sequelitis" can still be seen to this day.

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>>737254568
>You have the freedom to choose in which sequence you complete 120 shitty shrines and collect 900 Korok seeds
Fuck off, Aounuma. Ubishit game design was a mistake and you are a senile old fart. Hand over the torch to somebody who is younger and actually plays video games.

>>737263137
If I was playing a shooter and I can just drive a tank through the entire campaign and obliterate everyone with nothing that can stop me, would that be good game design? No, that's some shit only a 5 year old would have fun with. If I'm playing a platformer and I can use a jetpack to fly over all the obstacles and completely invalidate the game, is that good game design? No, that's fucking stupid. Video games need limitations.

>>737264778
>I was smoking that shit that makes your attention span last longer than 15 minutes.
The shit that also makes you convulse with ADHD assrage when dungeons exist and consist of more than just a couple rooms with 5 macguffins?
>>737264792
>Egoraptor and DSP literally became the primary target audience for mass-market games
it's extremely depressing when you realize this

>>737264797
How can people call this a Zelda game?

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Even the CDi games were better structurally than The Legend of Openslop.

>>737262454
Considering how generally solid OoT is, yes. The only thing arguably as annoying is Kaepora Gaebora.

>>737264971
because they want to be considered part of the Zelda fanbase but without having to actually touch those icky old games (besides, don't you know the Gerudo in OoT are heckin ORIENTALIST?... I don't know what that is. But it's bad because it's an "-ist" word!)

>>737263371
Then there's no good example to compare it to. Because all those sequels have some catch that hurts its broader appeal. Tears was on equal footing with botw, it was just as grand, it was just botw, but more. And yet it didn't perform as well.

>>737264792
A true Hegelian dialectic with BOTW/TOTK being the "solution"

>>737264541
>Never was designed around cinematics.
Objectively wrong.
https://shmuplations.com/ocarinaoftime/
It was literally designed around making everything cinematic with the automated animations and camera pullaways.

>>737264710
>it's mechanically a better game than most games that followed it in the last three fucking decades
Absolutely fucking not. It's mechanically anemic and railroaded. Very boring.
>things don't have to be narratively complex and dark and mature and adultified to be good
You're right, but video games do have to have solid mechanics which OoT does not.

>>737264942
>The shit that also makes you convulse with ADHD assrage when dungeons exist and consist of more than just a couple rooms with 5 macguffins?
No, I love those dungeons too. I want both. I think TOTK nearly got there but the main dungeons didn't have enough meat on them. It's why my initial argument was cutting the shrines in half but still keeping them. I love short form puzzles, they're fun and allow for a lot of creativity.

>>737262851
I bet it's going to turn out that they vanished because of a different timeline, calling it now.

>>737263567
>At that point they might as well just make it an RPG and let you level up.
Yeah, it would be neat to have either Zelda 2 remade, or some kind of successor adhering to the format.

>>737265257
>It's mechanically anemic
disingenuous faggot

>>737263705
Name hard Zelda games
>nb4 Zelda 1 and 2 which Botw is designed like

>>737264797
I loved Nuts and Bolts.

>>737265367
You're a fucking retard. It's a bunch of simplified and streamlined automated movements and extremely limited lock and key style mechanics. On what planet is it not mechanically anemic? There isn't a jump button and there's only one very scripted and obvious way to solve almost every puzzle.

>>737264693
Much like the previous games, where you do 3 dungeons and you've experienced all of what the game had to offer.

>>737265345
I would love a Zelda 2 remake because I admit I get filtered hard by the difficulty, but love the gameplay.

>>737265474
right it's only got mechanics when it's a HARD game for MATURE ADULTS where you have a dedicated jump button to perform jumps from the ground to six feet in front of you on the same ground

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>>737254568
The open world isn't the problem, the problem is that you see all the cool shit during the tutorial and then what?
>Go underground to collect stupid amiibo costumes from better Zelda games?
>Ride a horse or build a vehicle in a world that is 70% mountaineous terrain?
>Build a plane that desintegrates after like 30 seconds?
>Discover a cozy ranch/village with cute characters that motivates you to go save the world? Nope, you get generic ninja clan in a european fantasy setting and a degenerate farming village that got taken over by a mushroom fashion cult instead, with no way to restore it to how it was in BOTW.
Zelda would be fine as open world if they actually filled that it with cool and pleasant stuff, not an avalanche of mii-faced homunculi that make me want to side with Ganondorf.

>>737265423
Zelda 1, 2 , AlttP, OoT and MM are harder than BotW.

>>737265257
Actions speak louder than words. If you play the games, you see how so many new mechanics were added that are necessary and vital to progressing in the game. Many of these are removed in openzelda and all you are left with is zelda weeping

>>737265652
>right it's only got mechanics when it's
When the game doesn't automate everything and lets you use different mechanics in different ways. It doesn't need to be particularly hard, but if everything is streamlined, simplified and automated it's shit.

>>737265714
>Actions speak louder than words.
Yes, like how they made the game.
>you see how so many new mechanics were added that are necessary and vital to progressing in the game.
Which new mechanics? A bunch of scripted, canned animations are not "mechanics".

>>737265423
Few Zeldas are hard but prior to Wind Waker they had a difficulty curve that at least existed. OoT's by far the most forgiving of the lot but it was designed as if it were one's very first 3D adventure game so whatever. It's possible to see a game over in any of them otherwise.

>>737265725
it literally only automates the jumps
next you're going to say z targeting "automates" aiming which somehow makes it a bad game for babies despite the fact the N64 only had one analog stick to work with
you are a disingenuous faggot

>>737265459
Amazing how people back then didn't eat up nu banjo but zelda fans eat up anything. Look at the HATRED for Bonanza. Did Rare just have a more intelligent fanbase?

This further proves it the new generation that loves this shit and not the old

>>737258115
>Is it really that hard to make an open world Zelda but with OoT style dungeons?
no, aonuma is absolutely trolling. he's probably getting bribed to tank the franchise and i mean that with 100% sincerity. there is no other explanation for botw and totk

>>737263875
Pretty easy outside of some bosses.

>>737265791
>it literally only automates the jumps
And the climbing. Now you can pretend that these actions weren't manual inputs in contemporary games at the time.
>next you're going to say z targeting "automates" aiming which somehow makes it a bad game for babies despite the fact the N64 only had one analog stick to work with
you are a disingenuous faggot
No, that's not really automated. It's just shit playing with one analogue stick and aiming. The first person aiming is horrendous.
>disingenuous
Why do retarded pseuds from reddit love spouting this like it validates they're retarded and objectively wrong crying about things that can easily be verified, like game mechanics?

>>737254680
I consider people who dismiss every open-world game to often have the shittiest taste you can imagine and want all games to be turn-based while acting like they are superior to everyone around them.

>>737265890
Still harder than BotW.

>>737265793
As someone who got into video games through Banjo-Kazooie, Nuts & Bolts can go fuck itself. Tears of the Kingdom can also go fuck itself.
>I have seen a beloved childhood series of mine devolve very specifically into open world vehicle crafting slop twice now

>>737265921
>And the climbing.
Half-Life "automates ladders" in the exact same way
pressing a button to start climbing adds NOTHING to the game
you're a retard

>>737266051
>Half-Life "automates ladders" in the exact same way
I mean climbing up ledges. And if you want to bring HL up as an example, it has more mechanically involved movement tech with crouch jumps. Try again, retarded redditor faggot who doesn't actually play video games.

>>737263705
Nothing wrong with easy games, BOTW/TOTK are harder than the other 3D Zeldas if anything.

Then again
>Porn addict

>>737265921
Jumping wasn't a manual input in A Link to the Past either.

>>737254568
how the fuck are japanese devs so clueless? we just want classic zelda formula. it doesn't have to be extremely linear, old games gave you a good degree of freedom, and i think ALBW really nailed the marriage between the classic formula and giving players more freedom

Looking back on it Aonuma always felt like he had weird complexes about how popular OoT was.

>Wind Waker completely ditched OoTs artstyle and was about moving on from OoT and not living in its shadow
>Forced to make something like OoTs realistic style again but everyone is ugly as sin except minds
>Skward Sword he gets to make the entire origin of the series
>BotW no past game really matters because it's set so far in the future

Idk it's just really weird to me his first game was so meta about OoT being so popular.

>>737266137
oh man if only OOT had a jump button then i could press it when i'm against a wall that doesn't have a grabbable ledge! and then link would try to grab a ledge that isn't there and return to his starting position! it'd be so COOL and such a good mechanic! it'd add something really meaningful to the game :)

>>737254680
Botw is just ubisoftslop, of course they love it because they can be lazy with it's design

>>737266176
"Contemporary games at the time" means other 3D games from around the same time, but a 2D game from 7 years earlier.

>>737266282
>if only OoT had manual control over actions instead of automating everything, it might actually have real mechanics that lead to fun, unscripted gameplay
Correct.

>>737262851
I'm legitimately surprised by didnt get cancelled for that. Imagine a game set in real life where all the indians just literally evaporate into the air. I know everyone hates natives/aboriginal Australians/eskimos etc. Including me but it was fucking weird to see. It's like their tech had a build in holocaust feature. It was really fucking weird.

>>737266360
the only things it automates are """decisions""" on the level of pressing start on a game's splash screen

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>there still is a set path, it just happens to be the path that they chose

Jesus Christ that's some Todd Howard tier PR word salad nonsense. Literally just saying words that sound nice but mean nothing

>>737265282
>Aonuma caring about timelines

Most retarded post in this thread congrats

>>737262823
Well I played it last year for the first time and it sucked ass.

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>>737266413
OoTrannies are the kind of "gamers" that actually agree with this drivel.

>>737266360
I know what contemporary means. The point is a sequel to a game from 1991 carried over some of that game's mechanical implementations. It's not that OoT ignored the trends of the time, it kept what its predecessor did, which is automate jumping. Granted, LA has Roc's Feather so they didn't have to, but maybe they felt no real need as Zelda isn't exactly renowned for its platforming sequences.

>>737263816
Water temple final boss shits on all nu zelda bosses. And don't bring up cheesing him

>>737266167
>BOTW/TOTK are harder than the other 3D Zeldas if anything
BotW and TotK are harder than the Zeldas that came after Majora's Mask. An improvement for sure, but still lacking.

>>737266536
nu tomb raider is a shit game with no decisions, it's a completely different situation

>>737266571
>The point is a sequel to a game from 1991 carried over some of that game's mechanical implementations.
Carrying over mechanics and design choices from a game that worked in 2D into a 3D game is blitheringly stupid. That would be like if SM64 didn't have air control.
>Granted, LA has Roc's Feather so they didn't have to,
Thanks for bringing that up so I didn't have to.

>>737266628
>nu tomb raider
Thanks for the laugh, tendie. I really mean that. You guys really live in a special little bubble.

>>737266589
In terms of challenge, there’s not a single lynel that the water temple boss is harder than.

>>737266613
To put it in simpler terms: TLOZ became easier and never recovered the level of challenge present in its NES, SNES and N64 titles.

>>737266613
I would say Skyward Sword is harder than the likes of OoT, WW and TP simply because it does go out of its way to punish mistakes. If you play badly, you do eat dirt for it. Also, it gave the series Hero Mode.

>>737266589
Thunder Blight Ganon was the first good boss fight in a 3D Zelda game. OoT specifically has some of the worst 3D bosses I've ever seen in any game in any genre.

>>737265770
Z targeting, epona, time travel and the ocarina. Even collecting things was better in Oot. Skulttulas and Poes had a satisfying reward for completing their collectacthons

>>737265979
>Banjo was killed fiscally
>Zelda was killed spiritually

>>737259227
honestly, one of the most impressive things about BotW's design was... you could beat it without climbing at all. in fact the hardest part of doing so is escaping the first room.
Personally i like climbing, but think its the glider that actually ruins exploration. Climbing is a lot more fun when falling means you die.

>>737266796
oh it's thief
ok anyway

>>737266850
>Z targeting
Lock on wasn't new.
>epona
Horses in games were not new.
>time travel
Watered down version of the world jumping in LttP.
>collecting things
>Skulttulas and Poes had a satisfying reward for completing their collectacthons
>SKulltula reward
>satisfying
Oh, you're joking. You really had me going for a second.

>>737260445
>botw making the game open world did massive damage to story.
no, the devs awful choices did that damage. there's no reason an open world game has to have a shitty told out of order story, they just thought that was a good idea for some reason. memories could've had a required viewing order, they were just too lazy to think about how to make that work.

>>737266796
But it's not "blitheringly stupid" because the game is designed around it. It'd be one thing if you tried to do that in Tomb Raider, a series where climbing and jumping comprise 75% of the entire game. Even the later casualized ones still don't automate jumping, even though they do everything but. Zelda is not that kind of series though. Platforming is so far down its list of priorities (aside from the Oracles, weirdly enough) that automating jumps actually does get the job done. Context is important, not all mechanics are of equal value in all games.

>>737266938
It was new AND well received for ZELDA games. Nu zelda gave NOTHING worth having. Larger rupee wallets were very satisfying to have and the skulltula family was nice and grimdsrk

>>737267030
If platforming isn't important at all, then you're saying that large, 3D spaces with verticality in their exploration are not a focus of the game.

>>737265687
Then why didn't I die in any of those, I mean except Zelda 2 I died a lot in that, got one shotted a lot in Botw that must mean it's pretty tough

>>737265773
When you say difficulty curve, do you count the enemies going up in grades, or the requirement of beating the big enemy bosses to upgrade gear?

>>737267139
OoT very distinctly explores verticality through its use of the hookshot. It had a mechanic in place for that.

>>737267139
you don't need the ability to arbitrarily jump anywhere to have platforming and 3D navigation
in fact you are completely free to trigger a jump straight to your death at any of the game's plentiful open ledges
you are a fucking retard failing to force the idea that OOT is a bad game

>>737265979
>he hated Lego Racers
ngmi

>>737266249
>we just want classic zelda formula
yeah!
>i think ALBW really nailed the marriage
yeah!

>>737254680
No, that's not the reason. The issue is that everything in BOTW and TOTK is copy paste filler shit taken straight out of Ubishit's playbook rather than feeling like actually good hand crafted level design.

But hey, it's Nintendo and has a Zelda skin so Ubishit is good now.

>>737266938
>Lock on wasn't new.
Lock on that worked like Z targeting kind of was. I see people say other shit did it first, but every time i look into the games they recommend it works totally differently. Meanwhile Z-targeting works exactly like the lock on still used in games today.

>>737267220
The sense of challenge in general. Games like WW and TP threw new enemies and environmental traps at you but rarely did they feel like proper upgrades due to how overwhelmingly forgiving the games are. Usually, the only real challenge in these games is solving puzzles and NPC interactions to forge your way forward. Aside from the 50 floor gauntlets in each, combat was largely window dressing. It felt good, but was fairly easy to breeze through, certainly compared to the gear scaling of the first 3 games or even some of the boss designs of a game like MM.

>>737267230
Except the hookshot sucks, and it isn't even something you have for the whole game and as a result, most vertical movement isn't built around it.

>>737267312
>you don't need the ability to arbitrarily jump anywhere to have platforming and 3D navigation
You're right. You can have some kind of rocket jumping in lieu of that. But you need one of the two.
>you are a fucking retard failing to force the idea that OOT is a bad game
No, I'm just someone who actually plays video games and doesn't feel the need to defend shitty mechanics and design in the 1 single 3D game I played when I was 8 years old on Christmas and my parents were fighting in the next room.

>>737266589
>And don't bring up cheesing him
Why? that would be the equivalent argument that fags bring up about Botw.
>Botw is difficult!
>nuh uh, you can cheese it
>Totk is difficult!
>no way, you can cheese it too

>>737267508
>But you need one of the two.
you literally don't
keep trying dumb bitch

>>737266837
I was shocked how much SS beat my butt when I missed inputs, or the times I got lost during the lead up to dungeons when you have to do some task. People make it seem like it's this super casual experience, while they are filtered by the very controls.

>>737267508
You get the hookshot 10 minutes after becoming an adult, and the child dungeons are basically a long string of tutorial sequences. The game arguably starts when you're tasked to acquire the hookshot.

>>737267429
>Meanwhile Z-targeting works exactly like the lock on still used in games today.
Really? Which games feature a lock on that changes the camera (not just centers it) and then changes the enemy AI? If you mean lock on that hard locks and toggles and allows strafing, OoT didn't invent that. Skip the reply where you move the goalposts from "OoT was the first one to do this exact style of lock on that everyone copies" to "OoT was the first game I played that had these few features but also it doesn't matter that modern games all drop the other features it had." Besides, lock on is a bad crutch for game design. The director of the best action combat already said so.

>>737266848
I hope they make shrines longer and cap some off with bosses like thunderblight.

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>>737267624
Yes you do, dumb little tendie who doesn't play games.

>>737267659
So this is the non-tutorial real gameplay in the adult dungeons with 3D movement and navigation you're talking about?

>>737267737
again, feel free to run towards any ledge you like and trigger a jump to your death

>>737267737
And now we've devolved into shitposting. Good talk, I guess.

>>737266837
>Also, it gave the series Hero Mode.
True, as a new game+ difficulty. I'm talking about the base game (also the reason why I omitted the Master Quest edition of OoT) which is what most players will experience.

>>737267158
>Then why didn't I die in any of those
I find that hard to believe given you had to be reckless to get one-shotted in BotW.

>>737267373
if they're going to insist on open world, ALBW would be the way to do it

>>737267826
>posting unedited gameplay from the part of the game in discussion is shitposting
You and everyone else who deifies OoT is mentally ill and you don't play video games. Great talk.

>>737267874
There's literally no way you didn't die in Botw early on. Getting armor is practically a big event.

>>737267928
You are harming my nostalgia of the game, this is literally a microtransgression on me

>>737267959
You're expected to die in ALL games a number of times. It's not a landmark of difficulty but the bare minimum.

>>737267928
I didn't deify OoT. I said that it wasn't the first Zelda to automate jumping, and then I said that it utilized a different tool to explore 3D verticality - the hookshot. Something that merely getting into the Forest Temple, as well as its very first room, communicates to the player.

>>737267671
>If you mean lock on that hard locks and toggles and allows strafing, OoT didn't invent that
yeah you always say that, and then it turns out the games that did it first had retarded wonky controls for how it worked, like Megaman Legends rooting you in place and requiring you to use shoulder buttons to strafe, fully disabling the ability to walk forward or backward.

>>737267928
why would anyone here have a cache of webms that show off specific dungeon puzzles just so we can disprove the retarded disingenuous assertions of some random faggot anon who hates everything but thief 2?

>>737265926
Yeah, I can build up a retarded straw man in my mind too.

Real question is why can't we just have both versions of zelda co-existing instead of just putting your eggs all in one open world basket. Variety is the spice of life and all.

>>737268065
This is going to be hard to hear, but everyone who calls you an idiot isn't the same person. I've never once said MML invented hard lock on.
>fully disabling the ability to walk forward or backward.
And that's not even right.

>>737268060
>I said that it wasn't the first Zelda to automate jumping,
Yes it was. LttP didn't have jumping. LA and Zelda 2 did, and they didn't automate it.

>>737261291
Well said

>>737268182
>And that's not even right.
it's exactly how it worked. MML lockon disabled movement aside from the strafe buttons.

>>737268219
You run off ledges into a jumping animation in ALttP. Same input, same idea, and it is used frequently to traverse between floors and enter caves.

>>737268052
You die in games because you did something wrong, it's not mandatory. It's not really possible to argue that Botw is easy, just because you mastered it. Enemies do a lot of damage unlike the other games. Nothing drops health pick ups like the other games.

>>737268247
You need to play MML again.

>>737268219
>LttP didn't have jumping.
actually sweaty, Palace of Darkness definitely has ledge jumping over pits

>>737268342
>You run off ledges
That's called falling. Show me actually jumping over something in LttP.

>>737268524
I'm not going to record footage because fuck that shit, but there's a cave in Kakariko Village that requires you to jump from a higher ledge to enter. You also jump from the highest points of Death Mountain to further explore its cave systems.

>>737254680
oot gives the illusion of freedom but in the best way possible. there is very clear developer intention and the world feels way larger than it actually is. it feels way more open than it actually is. it’s designed to be backtracked over dozens of times while constantly finding new secrets.

modern zelda by contrast is truly open but there is little rewarding sense of real progression as a consequence and the design of the world makes it into a glorified checklist by comparison. you never have a reason to backtrack and you can always do literally anything wherever you are because if you couldn’t it would violate the extreme open world philosophy of the game, hence why weapon durability that everyone hates is a necessity, because you have to be feeling like you’re making some kind of progress somehow and getting some kind of reward. it can’t be something that actually changes how you navigate the world beyond minor conveniences and because of that, hour 3 of the game plays exactly the same as hour 25. it is the game design equivalent of being stuck in purgatory

>But I also think that with the freedom players have in the more recent games
There is no freedom, other than that of movement. They took away proper dungeons and level design and replaced them with almost nothing. Even TOTK's potential as a creativity toy with the zonai contraptions is ruined by modern Nintendo's obsessive compulsion to tie every mechanic to expendable resources. BOTW and TOTK are games where you spend dozens of hours grinding to more efficiently and effective bully different flavors of the same 5 enemies over and over again, while being fed the laziest and worst written stories Nintendo has ever produced.

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>ALTTP secondaries get 8 remakes of their game but then throw a fit because Nintendo finally decides to make a game for fans of the original games

>>737268648
>but there's a cave in Kakariko Village that requires you to jump
No, it requires you to fall. Do you not know the difference between falling and jumping? Link falls down that hole, he doesn't jump into it.

>>737268859
ALttP is a better homage to Zelda 1 than BotW/TotK are.

>>737268395
>You die in games because you did something wrong, it's not mandatory
Not necessarily. You die in games because they're designed to surprise you with new challenges and situations that you've to overcome I..e they have difficulty curves with spikes.
This is why dying in a game a number of times is to be expected. If a game didn't have difficulty spikes or its difficulty curve was too flat it would get extremely boring and very quickly.

>It's not really possible to argue that Botw is easy, just because you mastered it.
When one is judging the difficulty of a game, one is COMPARING IT to other games within the same franchise and/or within the game's genre or subgenre.
Enemies doing a lot of damage doesn't outweight the fact you can stockpile healing items like there was no tomorrow, whereas in other games you had more limited resources and thus were forced to learn each new challenge without that safety net.

>>737268780
>They took away proper dungeons and level design
The only proper bit of 3D level design in Zelda before BotW was Stone Tower. The shitty 3D dungeons you grew up on were never good.

>>737268925
He jumps from a ledge. Is this really the sort of semantic hill you want to die on?

>>737268859
maybe the original has the same shortcomings as BOTW and TOTK

>>737266249
All they had to do was make a traditional Zelda game, except with a much larger seamless world now that they had the means to with stronger hardware. Instead they divided everyone.

>>737268468
okay
>boots up MML
>it works exactly like i said
huh... yeah good call anon.

>>737254568
I'd be happy with BotW/TotK if it had proper dungeons. Instead we get 100+ puzzles.

>>737268978
>Stone Tower
Great Bay is a better use of 3D space. It's interesting that you flip the entire dungeon in Stone Tower but the actual structure of it is fairly simple to compensate. Great Bay has you manage the internal currents and pay attention to the colored pipes in the wall to maintain proper bearings, you actually have to plan your course in 3D with that dungeon.

>>737261136
>but Metroid fans say NOOOO YOU CAN'T DO THAT. Super weird shit.
Metroid Prime 4 is completely linear though. That random dialogue bit of Myles saying you can go where you want ended up being a lie.

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>>737268954
E.g. In BotW you can trivialize its challenge by farming items.

>>737254568
>le make your own fun
This retard needs to fuck off

Why has it been decided that Zelda 1 is the sole be-all, end-all of Zelda design, anyway (ignoring that BotW/TotK aren't Zelda 1-likes? This wasn't done with SMB1 for Super Mario, or Metroid 1 for Metroid.

>>737269074
He's probably confusing it with MML2.

>>737254568
>guy in charge of Zelda gets destroyed by Octorocks in Zelda 1
>guy in charge of Mario can't beat World 1-1
Fuck Miyamoto.

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>>737265423
>The hard games don't count as being hard cause the easy game is based on them

>>737254680
>They say dungeons and actual level design
Fify

>>737262851
It was their pathetic attempt at trying to make the game seem like it wasn't a glorified DLC of botw. If all the blue sheikah stuff are gone and replaced with green sheikah tech, surely everyone will see it as a brand new game. They also changed malice into gloom even though it's literally the same shit.

>>737254568
If the next game is going to be more open world slop all i want is for them to at least add real dungeons, better music, better enemies and for Link to not look like a tranny like he did in botw/totk

>>737254568
no one has problems with open world zelda

the problem is that no one gives a shit about sheikah puzzles and nonexistent dugneons, its fucking absurd that majora's mask has more detailed dungeons than TOTK, a game that is 26 years old