How would you fix archers without turning them into a mage adjacent class?
>>737310790what's there to fix?
>>737310962They only do what mages do but worse
I think 3H had a good idea with that skill that allows them to counter during enemy phase.
>>737311121i guess making the long bow distance the standard would be a way to even things out, or you can go full archer fanboy and make them attack from 1 to 5 squares of distance with not set backs like in the 3ds remake
>>737310790It's all in the map design.Make maps where you need a 2-range supporting you from the back or beyond a wall because, otherwise, your frontliers will be run over.Too much open spaces in NuEmblem. Games are way easy now. Of course Archers suck when you take away their utility.
>>737310790you turn the 2x flyer vulnerability to 3X so they have a perfectly good niche, then make them have fighter-level HP growths and bases so you can use them more aggressively. swordmaster crit mechanic or baseline 1-2 are copes
>>737310790Bows have advantage against flyers and mages afar.
Tactics Ogre had them be THE damage class while mages were a dual role of control and damage.
>>737310790Make physical/magical resistance more extreme instead of letting mages melt down demons and cultists as easily as they do knights. Give a reason to use physical damage.
>>737310790Archers were fine in New Mystery, Fates, Three Houses and they had a decent enough niche in engage. Hell having a bow is even useful in binding blade. Don't let low turn count trannies shit on you
There are games where archers are bad and mages are good.There are games where mages are good and archers are bad.They're no constant.
>>737313434They are both good in FE3.
Mages deal area damage, archers focus on a single target with either faster dps or higher crit chances
you stop giving them garbage stats and stop having every map amount to camping chokepoints on enemy phase
>>737311141>>737311341>>737311515>>737313252>>737313352>>737313662>>737313974All of you basically said "buff their damage". Make them more combat viable. Make them counter at range-1. nuEmblemers miss the point
drink bleach mass replying chimp
>Make them counter at range-1....so make them a half a melee class? why not just go all the way make them full-melee lol>>737314503lmao
>>737314347>buff their damagegood idea. this creates a niche where archers are specialized range attackers, making them worth using despite their weakness at close range.>Make them counter at range-1.horrible idea. this removes a defining feature of the class and still fails to fix the weak units.
>>737314347>Ask a question>Pissy that he gets an answer he doesn't like
>>737310790Archers should have 1-3 range, but cannot attack through walls. Other physical ranged weapons also shouldn't attack through walls.
>>737310790Give them overwatch.
>>737315102>Overwatch at only 2 range
>>737310790bows good against fliers, 2 range (3 longbows) can't attack adjacent squarescrossbows good against armor, 1 range (special heavy crossbow 1-2 like javelins) weak against flyers
>>737310790Fucking Berserk!!! I just got hit in FE8, my main just murdered his 2 Cavaliers and Paliden with his best spear. The game is growing on me.
>>737314347You're right anon, it was my bad for trying to give a combat class combat utilities. To make it more versatile rangers should be delegated to being the cum dumpsters of their respective parties, how does that sound?
>>737315723I liked 3 houses where they just made the archers crit machines that are also good against air.
Fire emblem
>>737310790I guess you should make their flier bonus so consistent that it's always devastating for a flier. That way even your Wolts have a niche use.
>>737315749I mean I dont hate it?
>>737313393Why do you forget Archer Emblem, I mean Shadows of Valentia?
>>737315749Yeah but they can also have combat class combat utilities too
>>737310790They need to be more like assassination units. Much higher damage. But I also think it's important to lock their range tighter. 1-2 range just makes them into mages and higher range pushes them into gimmick strategies and is frankly a pain in the arse balance wise. I think there's good reason to increase their durability too since they should be able to take a javelin or handaxe when fighting ponies.
>>737310790Give bows the debuffs shurikens had in Fates.
>>737310790Armor knights take 1/2 damage from bowsMounted units receive 10 crit from archersWyverns take double with 20 critPegasussy take triple with 30 critMake them the anti scalies and furries to nerf cav emblem
Berwick Saga has good archers, copy that game. Their bows are pretty average but they can also use different types of arrows. As well as basic damage arrows there are also elemental arrows that hit on an enemy's res stat, arrows that kill horses, arrows that ignore/break shields and sniper arrows that are incredibly accurate. These give archers versatility.
>>737310790Roy grew up drinking her breast milk
>>737310790Make their range 2-3 but put make the power and accuracy of the 3 range shots lower. Archers can now be safe snipers without getting countered, but at a cost of not necessarily getting a kill.
Archers are fine as is. The class that needs to be removed are myrmodins since they serve no point when mercenaries exists.
>>7373107902-3 range by default, and have 3+ range tomes be rare.Bring in Stratagems from Hopes, and have a common one be to deploy a Ballista at the starting location.
>>737314347>increasing range = buff their damageare you retarded?
>>737315749Doesn't go far enough, needs to be Azure Orphanage level where the entire party is a cumdump.
>>737322269>The class that needs to be removed are myrmodinsSwordmaxxing, cuck the Mercenaries out of Killer Edges. Give the myrmidons daggers with shit Mt as a ranged option.
>>737319515I forgot to mention, buffs to pegasus and cavs res
>>737318108because that game is dogshit
>>737313393>New Mystery,lolLmao, even
>>737313434They're both good in Fates.
>>737310790give them Lethality
>>737314347I dont think i understand the question because its fire emblem. I always figured class was irrelevant in fire emblem its down to the indvidual characters's stats that really matter. With a dab of rng to keep things interesting as they level up. If the real issue is "how do we make more people play archers" Then the problem is simple Give archers cool promotions. Drop an artifact bow with unique properties early. Make sure the archer wears a short skirt.
>>737322775Sniper/Horseman are good classes in NM.
>>737310790>Crit bonus when promoted>Good skills>Boosted exp gains>More longbow variants with non dogshit stats (they still have to be rare)>Have fliers be present early onAll of these work well
>>737322269In GBA FE, memedons are even simpler to fix than archers: just make the magic swords not the rarest shit ever so that they have their unique form of ranged combat. Seriously, why is the Wind Edge the rarest weapon in these games?
>>737322269>FE1-4N/A>FE5Hero>FE6Myrm>FE7-8Hero>FE9-10N/A>DS FEMyrm>AwakeningHero>FatesEqual>3HNeither>EngageHero
myrm low defhero balancedarmor knights high defand make enough enemies counter each separately
>>737322713Yeah, sure but that's like one third of the games here.
Cutesythea
>>737323659>every class should be the same and have the same toolsLet me guess you're a 1-2 range bow fag as well
>>737323376>Sniper On normal maybe. >Horseman There are some niche uses for it on lunatic just due to being a ranged class with high speed cap, but for the most part NM is still a "1-2 range is king" game.
>>737323679hero is better in fe11
>>737324231Nah, Myrm hits 15+ SPD which is enough to double for a really long time.
>>737323981It wouldn't be the same, because the magic swords still suffer penalties at range (half power, no crit), would still be rare and would still require high weapon ranks (C for the weakass Light Brand, B for the good Wind Sword and A for the powerful Runesword). They're also locked to magic damage, making them bad against high res enemies.
>>737323948The problem is that Myrms get their niche squeezed out in games that have both Mercenaries and Assassins. At that point they are just the S rank sword bot
>>737310790Don't fix archers, fix the games.If a single unit can't juggernaught entire enemy phases with cheap, strong 1-2 range weapons, there's actual value in units that can safely take out a key target from 2 range.
>>737324569Players will always find a way to over level a character for as long as the game has a leveling system and a class with 0 counters
>>737324569They did fix the game pre GBA and post Wii, it was only that era where IS way overdid it with javs/handaxes.
>>737324569If you don't fix archers then that unit is going to be a mage or a javelin user (stats so much better than archer that the inferior weapon is still better at 2 range).
>>737324280There's only 1 point of speed between their bases, while hero has extra str+def+axes. And unlike fe12 the speed cap isn't an issue in fe11
>>737310790Your parents would fix their lives if they didn't give birth to you.
>>737324805>>737324231Speedcap matters on the highest difficulties. Hero doesnt cut it after a while.>>737324175Lmao at your entire post
>>737325265>Speedcap matters on the highest difficultiesno they don't. generic enemies do not hit caps or even get close to
>>737323376Agreed.They're great at dealing with all those wyverns and wyvern knights and they're good in general for doubling & killing all sorts of regular enemies.Most enemies have 1-2 range and kill your units in 2-3 hits so bows are sometimes your best for enemy phasing.A typical FE12 team looks something like>Lord>Dancer>Chameleon>Paladin>Dracoknight>Horseman>Sniper>four sages>extra
>>737321438Is that why he's such a shit unit in his game?
>>737310790Better movement and weapon effectiveness. Archers should be used for safe chip damage and as flyer killers.
>>737311121mages aren't athleticthey should have one less square of movement and get killed easieralso make them run out of spells twice as fastthere I fixed your problem and broke the game
>>737322332Cute pic. She hit one of these crits, scraping off 3/4ths of his HP in this one round of combat.
>All these anons falling for the romhack trap of 2-3 range by defaultThat shit makes maps both annoying as shit and easy as hell to cheese. It legitimately never works well
>>737326307Seems fair. Mages are still really good in Three Houses.
Make archers the chess horse. Increased range over mages but not directly ahead.
>>737310790Give them strong range 3 weapons, make it a player phase game (generally meaning fewer stronger enemies). Ballistas to give them a lot of chances to hax the progress of a mission. Merge their role with thieves if you still want an enemy phase game.
>Iron Bow, gimmick bows2 range>Steel Bow3 range>Silver Bow4 range>S rank bow5 range>Longbow3-5 range
>Lord>Dancer>Manakete>Myrmidon>Knight>Fighter>Archer>Thief>Cavalier>Pegasus>Mage>ClericIs this the bare minimum amount of classes needed to cover all of "essential" roles in FE?
>>737327419The only essential role in FE is Lord.
>>737327419brigand/piratedark magewyvern ridernomadtroubadour
>>737327419Manakete hasn't been an essential FE class in 20 years unc
Jack their hit rates to "almost never miss" rates when at 2 range. All bows can target 3-4 spaces but the hit rates take significant penalties for every space beyond.
>>737327871Yeah, I liked this solution in Three Houses.
>>737327754>20 years3H is the only modern game without a manakete function if you include DLC.>>737327742>Brigand/PirateThief can destroy villages unless you meant mountain/water walk.>Dark Mage/WyvernMage does magic damage and Pegasus covers flight>Nomad/TroubOther classes can cover them.
>>737327742>brigand/piratebetter to have one of these over the standard infantry axe fighter, the movement makes them more unique>dark mage>wyvern riderjust copies of other classes, unnecessary.not related to the current discussion, but I'd like to make wyvern rider distinct by decreasing its movement.>horse archer>horse healernot necessary but would be good additions
>>737328089Unfortunately awakening happened and nosferatu tanking is not something you can do with magesIf knight and cavs are separated then peg-wyv, nomad-archer troub-cleric should too
>>737328089Manaketes haven't been in the last 3 FE games. They don't even exist as a concept in multiple FE universes. Already a way worse track record than all the other classes you listed.
>>737328397>nosferatu tanking is not something you can do with magesNosferatu/resire is in other games too.>knight and cavsKnights are low movement infantry that wear armor, cavs fight on horseback.
>>737328508wyverns are heavy hitter tank air unitspegasus are either rescue bots or flier myrmidons minus the crit with maybe the option for meme triangle>Knights are low movement infantry that wear armor, cavs fight on horseback.what is archer and a nomad
>>737328402>FE1Manakete>FE2None>FE3Manakete>FE4-5None>FE6Manakete>FE7None>FE8Manakete>FE9-10Laguz fill the transformer function>DS and 3DS FEManakete, Taguel, Kitsune and Wolfskin. Corrin/Kana also use Dragonstones, so they count. The only game that doesnt have a transformer is the remake>3HNone.>EngageNel and Rafal in the DLC are similar to Corrin.
>>737328397Pegasus and Wyvern are primarily fliers. Hell, FE1/2/3 dont even bother differentiating them.
>>737328870>nomadThat was used for sacaean savages because of those games' lore, whereas in FE9 bows were just another weapon type for cavs and paladins.
>>737327419Anything that was in FE1 is a real nigga class, anything else is not. Simple as.
>>737329493I would like xane's class to return but ballisticians are unnecessaryI hate niggers btw
>>737329475Horseman has been a thing
>>7373107901-3(or 4) range.Bonus agianst Cavs, take less damage from fliers.
Tellius solved this, give them crossbows and more defence
>>737327419>essential>doesn't tell what essential meanIs it a class essential to beat the gameor is it a class that has been in every gameor a class anon personally likes to use
>>737310790Give them a bonus when attacking enemies that have been attacked or some type of chaser shot function.
>>737330258I like the idea of them being given the back-up function from engage where they participate in other units combat if they are in range. Gives them more to do since they usually only get player phase actions instead of having an enemy phase.
>>737310790Archers in FE are like Advance Wars anti-air but weak against ground units. They're not fun to use, and have a couple of niches other classes can perform as well.
>>737330023What's the bare minimum amount of classes to cover the "core roles" in a FE game.For exampleLord - MCDancer - RefresherMyrm - SwordsKnight - Lances/ArmorFighter - AxesArcher - Bows/2 Range specialistCav - HorsePegasus - Flight/Anti MageMage - Magic damageCleric - HealingThief - Steal/Chests/Anti Village
>>737330363So what you are saying is make fliers take almost no damage from melee characters
i used klein in fe6 and i have to say he was absolutely a joy to use since you get so many interesting bow options between his innate silver, the long bow, two early killer bows, and the +5 speed murgleis. i think gba archers get a bad rep but in fe6 klein igrene and sin all feel great
>>737330434If you want, you can fuse Thief/Archer and offload the anti village thing to Fighter but GBA FE's AI is retarded when it comes to "steal", so in that instance, steal would have to be character innate.
>>737330561Sin is awesome but I still don't really like Klein desu. One of the FE6 units I feel is the most overrated.
>>737330562>>737330434You can also fuse Dancer and Cleric by adding the Again staff.
You can dump thief, myrm since the lord uses a sword, and combine mage and priest for the bare minimum
>>737330561Don't forget the brave bow, you get it early and it's very useful because Klein doesn't double fast enemies
>>737330434There is only 2 roles in FE game, enemy phase units and player phase units, everything else is just flavor within these core roles. With over leveling there is only enemy phase units since everything gets ORKOd by enemy phase units without leaving anything for player phase units
I find it funny that thieves and archers tend to be shitters in FE when they're overpowered in most other SRPGs
>>737330757Japan and Nintendo really hates anything thief related
>>737330483Make it like berwick saga, where flying units cannot be directly targeted by melee units, but are vulnerable to counterattacks if the flying units are the ones to attack.
>>737331062Flying units are already busted and you want to make them untargetable too?
>>737330561>klein igrene and sin all feel greatDorothy has 50% STR growth and 45% SPD growth, and she has the best averages out of all the infantry archers.
>>737331208F- tier dung
>>737331208I don't care. Shin is good because he doesn't need to be babied at all. Klein's alright for similar reasons, but he doesn't have a horse, so I don't care as much.
>>737330650Again Staff would have to be incredibly limited though.>>737330727Leave
>>737331283Nah, just make it PRF to one Cleric and give it 1 range with infinite uses. Functionally identical to a Dancer. I don't have any problem with giving a Dancer a staff.
>>737330757Is your sample size just FFT and TO?
>>737331208Yes, for the low cost of 17 levels and a promotion item (while you're already training a far superior bow unit) you can get a marginal improvement over Klein
>>737330561Fuck off chud. You need to save those weapons for the last chapter of the game and use irons or javelins for everythign else
>>737331367>Is your sample size just [the only games that matter]? Not for me, but it wouldn't matter even if it was.
>>737331283>can't say I'm wrong
>>737331367Stella Glow, Arc the Lad, Triangle Strategy, Unicorn Overlord, etc. Retarded faggot
>>737330757Thief archetypes are generally overpowered in any game where Speed determines how frequently you can take actions. Ranged units are overpowered in other strategy games because they have 10 range.
>>737331416>the low cost of 17 levelsThat's correct anon, exp is more plentiful for base class units, so it is a low cost relatively speaking.
>>737331367>FFT>overpowered thieves and archersHave you played FFT?
>>737331518>Stella GlowRusty and Nonoka are good, Popo falls off>Triangle StrategyHughette is utility, Archibald is whatever, Trish or whatever her name is barely exists. Anna is solid.>Unicorn OverlordCavs and degenerate screen wipe aoes break that one. The archers/thieves are just decent.
>>737331476Honestly the silver bow is mogged by the killer bow which is one of the reasons Klein's high bow rank has sort of felt like a meme to me. Sin reaches the killer bow fast and can spam that for the rest of the game basically. I guess Klein is able to use the brave bow earlier, but his low movement makes it annoying to even get him to the targets you'd want to use it on.
>>737330561now play in hard you troon
>>737331736wow now klein is even better!
>>737331736I can't imagine anon found Klein's stats all that impressive without hard mode bonuses lol
ok what if 3 range but only if you don't move first?
>>737331621that's 17 levels I can shove into lilina instead
>>737331660Archers blow chunks in FFT but Hunters/Snipers/Assassins are good in TA/TA2.Thieves are useful in all FFT games because of what you can collect with Steal.>>737331574Its funny because TO TKoL's archers blew chunks even though bows had mega range due to their stat growth issues. The best archer was a Hawkman with a bow.
>>737331514Summing everything up as le player phase/enemy phase is so stupid and reductive that you don't warrant an argument.
>>737331858>don't moveHmm I wonder why tanks were considered bad for so long even with good stats
Why do boomers only talk about FFT/TO like those games haven’t been dead for 30 years? Mewgenics is the latest SRPG to hit the market
>>737331518Popo's strength isnt her archery, its the fact that her song inflicts paralysis on the entire fucking map at the cost of not being able act while she's singing. Which then gets power crept by Hilda's screen wide stop, some enemies resisting ailments or you just generally becoming so strong that blitzing the map by killing everything is faster.
>>737331670Silver Bow actually gets one shots on wyverns. The might difference is very much significant.
>>737331882I haven't played TKoL in like 20 years, nonetheless I wouldn't focus on just Archers, the comparison is about what FE does differently with ranged units that makes them less domineering. I feel like people do overexaggerate anyway though, in a game like Tactics Ogre over half of your team is still melee dudes because White Knight is a good class.
>>737332016They're the only SRPGs they've played
>>737332016I didn't want to play an edmundified into the breachalike
>>737324569So Engage, the most player-phase centric game in the entire series?
>>737331946Try separating the units you are using in your current playthrough within these roles to see that it works greatly, no matter their classes or growths but their actual current stats. Even NPCs in the game will tell you that
>>737332121Think of the upcoming chapters with wyverns though>13 restricts you to 2 tile bridges making it difficult for him to even attack them>Has 2 move in Arcadia lolThen wyverns kinda stop existing until 21 where any bow user you've been training can use whatever the fuck they want. Silver bow has trash hit. I keep one in Sin's inventory, but I find myself clicking the killer bow the vast majority of the time.
>>737332409I mean, Sin gigamogs Klein for many reasons. It's moreso relevant for Klein vs Igrene comparisons.
>>737332147Archer is excellent in every version of LUCT except for Reborn due to stat scaling jank and even then its useful in the hardest chapter due to 100% Silence application.FE's archers tend to feel bad because they often don't have a practical niche and are understated.
>>737332229I think I did one successful run of max difficulty Into the Breach with that orange jet plane team and I could never find another team I liked half as much as that one so I called it quits there.
>>737332229maybe 3hrt would be perfect for you
>>737326367She killed fortomis in our ironman relay despite having like 9 strength as a sniper
>>737332519I played it for a pretty short time relative to all the other brain parasite indies like FTL and Isaac, but I did think it was good. Just not 100 hours good.
>>737332494In the LUCT speedrun the primary ranged combatant is Canopus. Archer is a great class nonetheless and Canopus is of course using a Bow, but that range combined with flight can clear maps faster than anything else.
>>737332658>ironman*
Mozu is actually good
>>737332767No
>>737330434That is a few too many roles for a fantasy medieval game, in medieval wars you'd get like <5 roles with mostly spear wall, flanking and archers. In FE you get support, juggernauts and bench warmers and a lord to seize I guess
>>737332767I'd give her B tier.
>>737332878>>737332341Neither of you should be allowed to make a strategy game.
>>737332229I hate roguelikes period
>>737332767I do like the class of "help them takeoff" units where if you want to do like a single level of nursemaiding they're high quality, instead of just sending them to F tier like barely usable units.
Honestly I think Unicorn Overlord did a better job distinguishing and balancing classes in its game (even if some classes are still better than others), than FE could do.
babygame trannies showed up
>>7373332983 Cav in the front + Druid solves everything.
>>737333343>Jobs to Rosalinde
>>737332878>No one who can actually handle sieges among other thingsFailure of an army
>>737332341Psued
>>737331518Thieves are pretty weak in UO. Yeah, I know they can cheese Amalia, but their combat is shit in a game that is all about a nuking the target before they can blink. Dodge tanking loses its luster rapidly after Cornia, as you start procuring insane field-clearing weapons and moves that eliminate the need to play defense. There are a lot of parallels with Yunaka, honestly.Funnily enough, bows and archers are the busted thing in UO (one of them anyway).
>>737333343>cavstackThis is such a fucking meme. Caveman shit. They're never actually the best at killing shit, people just like it because it lets you turn your brain off. But they're quite bad at dealing with a lot of enemy comps.
core FE player unit roles>Lord - goes from point A to point B>high DEF guy - point defender>high MOV guy - handles side objectives>vanguards - guys with good enough STR, DEF, and MOV who push the frontline up>high SPD/SKL guy - dangerous enemy deleter>filler combat units who take the heat off the vanguards>healer>utility staffer>thief/unlocker>refresher/rallyercore FE enemy unit roles>common soldiers>village raiders>escaping thieves>roadblock armors>high MOV flankers who can bypass your frontline>debuff spellcasters
All I need baby
>>737334184Needs "magic, monsters, and dragons" under enemies.also>no mages
FAP TO ME ANON!FAP TO ME!
>>737310790Make piercing damage great again
>>737311121they do ranged physical damage, what else do you need
>>737334184>healer>utility stafferThese are not separate units ever
>>737310790Give them AoE attacks around you that you charge up?
introduce a staff lord
>>737333131Let's see. Conquest. You get your first player phase unit as your lord while most other units will mostly attack during player phase, lord's enemy phase capabilities can fall off right about when Camilla joins and that goes unchanged until the second next lord appears. By the time you are at the end game you will have a full fledged team since your player phase team will get enough stats and maybe even skills to be capable of surviving the enemy phase while others will get enough damage to nuke something during the player phaseNow let's go with FE6You get Marcus and to some extent Dieck and Rutger to enemy phase and give the skills to whoever you want to, unless you want to spend 4 units killing 1 enemy during player phase instead of 1 to 1 (I wonder which one has a better effective action per unit hmmm when even the game devs already expect you to be killing enemies in a little bit over 2 combat encounters, because misses), and that is all the way to Echidna, Miledy and Percival, maybe the cavs are also good enough to enemy phase and you still get to kill things with whoever else you are bringing and either got RNG blessed or is good enough. By the end game you get a full fledged team again with the best units for player phase and the best units for the enemy phase. Separating units in these two main roles just works, for every single fire emblem game. Who would think using your enemy phase units to bait the enemies for your other units would work in a game designed like pic related and everything else is flavor to spicy up the gameplay because eating a bland cake is not very excitingEven pokemon can be separated in just a few "core roles" despite having over 400 different pokemons, and these roles get even smaller when only considering what most people play pokemon for which is "does it do a lot of damage" and "does it not do enough damage" everything else is flavor. And just because its flavor doest mak it bad, that's what makes the cake exciting
>>737334791Depends on the game, but generally speaking, for games that have offensive staves with hit rates like sleep, silence, etc. your best bet is to put the staff in the hands of someone with really high MAG, which is usually going to be a Sage or something, who should normally be attacking instead, not healing unless there's down time.
>>737335131You're simply not using offensive staves for the vast majority of turns. Healing is always going to be the main task for anyone with staves and subpar offenses, since freezing/sleeping/silencing is usually a limited resource that isn't strictly necessary or even particularly useful.
Just make them not suck statistically.
>>737335289>Nerfs speed growthShe's already trash - why are we lowering anything?
GhebFE
>>737335387It's in exchange for +5% HP and Defense and +10% strength.
>>737335449I'm saying why make "exchanges" with this dumpster fire of a character? Just buff the shit out of her she's horrifically bad.
>>737335513She also got +2 HP and Str and +1 Spd base.
I posted this a week or two ago but the reason fe is so slanted towards unkillable enemy phase units is because of permadeath. because of permadeath your entire strategy has to revolve around keeping everyone alive, which means a unit has to be able to survive 3+ enemy attacks without dying or else become a player phase only unit at best or a benchwarmer at worst. this also results in short attack ranges, because the longer ranges units have the more ability to be focus fired there is.
if people are scared of losing units they can always do a solo run. hell seth can do a solo run for the duration of sacred stones.
>>737335589No, it's slanted towards enemy phase juggernauts because enemy phase juggernauts are effective and powerful. If they didn't work against the formations in the game you wouldn't use them.
>>737334791those are implicitly supposed to be the troubadour versus the cleric/priest
>>737335659I cannot tell what you mean by this. Which is supposed to be which? They're both just healing 95% of the time.
are AO3 links allowed?
>>737310790Give archers/snipers a skill that gives them an extra tile of range on every bow,>2-3 range on every bow>2-4 range longbowKeeps them further away from the front lines.
>>737310790Questions like this are dependent more on what the mages do than the non-mages. So fix the mages and the non-mages will be fine.
>>737335638they are powerful because alternatives aren't usable because of permadeath. compare it to advance wars where you can have a unit that will wreck shit for a while before being destroyed but it's ok because it was expendable. in fe you have to invest in units that can survive because there is no other option.
>>737330434These core roles don't cover everyone in the FE franchise. Framme wouldn't fit anywhere. A mix of what the other anons said is better and would cover everyone independent of the game they are from
>>737310790give them a horsemake longbows easier to get
>>737335910we’re not women so no
>>737335989And also a lot of fates' units
>>737335964And it's a good thing for strategy that the game has a thinner margin of error. The alternative you're proposing is a less strategic one. If you disagree you can play Casual mode.
it would be so fucking funny if Sothis got in smash bros in place of alear to promote FW unless you're Dietrich.
>30th anniversary next month>no smash announcementI think Sigurd is still in the ballot. forget alear, we can just summon FE characters instead while Sigurd can Call forth the Holy War. here's another trivia, xander mobius voices smash bros announcer and arvis
>>737335589Like the other anon said, Fire Emblem tends towards juggernauts at a core mechanical level (not permadeath, which I dare say isn't "core"). It's because of the way the combat calculations and phase system works that you want these stat monsters who kill everything and never die. Even if you removed permadeath as a consideration, you would still see skilled players using overpowered juggernauts, because it's simply more efficient than not using overpowered juggernauts. Killing 5 enemies per turn, per unit, is better than killing 1 and then wasting that unit's enemy phase sitting on his hands and doing nothing.To "fix" this would require an upending of Fire Emblem's core gameplay identity. Double attacking, bi-phasic turns, additive damage formula - all of it would need to be revamped and it's not clear to me that it's worth it to do this, when much of FE's appeal *is* raising units to be able to have these monster enemy phases where they delete half the map while barely taking any damage.
>>737310790Speed capped flier enemies.
>>737336296Oh, and the simplest way to stop juggernauting would be to remove the incentive to fight a lot on enemy phase - give enemies annoying anti-kill skills like Wary Fighter, or even remove enemy-phase retaliation entirely. Which sounds fucking awful, doesn't it?
>>737336296Could just make growths low and make exp scaling extremely harsh.
>>737336437Harsh enemy scaling actually encourages juggernauting / lowmanning. See: Awakening, New Mystery.
>>737336202no, it's less strategic because it wipes out entire dimensions of strategy. the entire game becomes nothing but counting squares and doing simple addition to make sure that none of your characters can die.
How about something like giving extra range based on con vs weight and having a small penalty in dmg with more range.For example cap it at 4 distance with a short bow, a small dmg penalty, but a speedy archer can still double with the bow and do decent chip damage. Then take the opposite with a Silver Bow and have a cap of 2-3 range with a bulky unit that has high enough con to clear the threshold for the additional range and good str to negate the range penalty, but shit spd so they won't be able to double.
>>737336296This is +/- the same problem with pokemon, everyone just uses whatever is fastest and hits the hardest because otherwise it would get annoying to play a wall the entire game or set up shit every battle. Mashing A / blinding moving forward with the strongest units is just the easiest way to play FE by design it is a game made to be easy for the most part, higher difficulties just give you less juggernauts while trying to make sure you can't ORKO to force you to play the player phase with the other units
>>737336506Exp scaling. Like the exp gain drop off from being over-leveled.
>>737336630blindly*
>>737336296Is there a squad tactics game that's kind of like fire emblem but just doesn't have unit retaliation so every enemy phase is a dead loss
>>737336563You're arguing that the game should let you be able to make more mistakes. Using people as cannon fodder is a strategy, sure, it's also more braindead than the counting squares and simple addition you often have a lot of trouble wiht.
>>737332767Yeah you just have to baby her a little on her join chapter and you get a unit that can counter rape the ninja cave
The simplest way to discourage juggernauting is designing maps that require you to have competent units in multiple different places at the same time.
higher accuracyalways 2HKO fliers, often 1HKOing them or leaving them crippledhave a sidearm (dagger) for melee & counters, but it does like half damage.
fire emblem needs a spin off with final fantasy. can you imagine Tiki dressed up as Terra or vice versa? Imagine Terra transforming into a dragon.
>>737336296>Killing 5 enemies per turn, per unit, is better than killing 1 and then wasting that unit's enemy phase sitting on his hands and doing nothing.you don't get to deploy 15 juggernauts though. you get like 4-5 at most and then the rest of your army is player phase only attackers or support characters. 15 characters that kill 1 enemy per turn is the same attrition rate as 3 that kill 5 per turn and also allows for way more unit diversity.
>>737336838They should have cut C25 Conquest's turn limit down to like half.
engage solved the juggernaut problem until it didn't
>>737336732it's only a "mistake" because permadeath means character's aren't allowed to die. without permadeath losing a character in exchange for taking out multiple enemies or one important one stops being a mistake and becomes a strategic decision.
>>737336860Gimme a Tiki broship with Rydia
>>737336838people will just send everyone to one side. if you do get a game over because of a failed objective then they won't do it because they know there are people who funnel exp into one unit and they don't want to soft lock players because nintendo and no kids left behind policy
>>737336871doesn't everyone actually enjoy juggs for a while even if they pretend not to? Even in games where the minimize the possibility like high difficulty conquest everyone thinks it's cool to set up invincible Ophelia or the lesbo
>>737336862You kinda cut to the heart of the issue, though. It's basically impossible to get 15 units that consistently kill 1 enemy per turn - and even if it were realistic, it would require intensive efforts to both achieve and maintain. It's a lot easier to raise 3 giga niggas that curbstomp every punk that breathes in their general direction.
>>737336978>if you do get a game over because of a failed objective then the devs won't do thisbetter phrasing
>>737336871Engage does have some of the best anti-juggernaut tools on display though.
>>737337120And then it gives the play the strongest juggernaut tools ever seen like Lyn and Lucina.
i dreamt with camilla
>>737336962So take the inverse of your argument. By removing permadeath you're removing a layer of strategy that involves keeping your own units alive. It's almost like you want an entirely different game than what Fire Emblem games set out to do from the ground up.
>can't juggernaut if you don't know who gets to become a juggernaut and the game doesn't give you one ready to goJust stop spoiling the game for yourself
>>737337036it's hard because you have to hold back with your low survivability characters. there are constantly times where you could be attacking with a character but have to hold back because there's a chance it might die when you hit end turn.
we need card games in fire emblem
>>737336647Oh, I read it wrong. But anyway, this doesn't necessarily work either, unfortunately. Fates has very harsh exp gain dropoff but you still see crazy juggernauting in it.
>>737337250even without permadeath there is still incentive to keep units alive. there can be a resource cost for losing units, or it can be a simple matter of needing to have enough firepower for the end of the map that you don't want to lose too much in the first part.
>>737337415Just play casual mode dude
>>737337415How does that pan out in Casual mode? Would you say it's a more or less strategic experience?
>>737336293Kill yourself smash won't be until 2028
>>737336982power fantasy is real but it also only lasts for so long. a lot of the potential units only start coming online very late because generic enemies don't scale well. but you can also start juggernaut-ing pretty early if you know how to sooooo, blind playthroughs best playthroughs?
Juggernaut SRPG: you kill 10 enemies on enemy phasepermadeath SRPG: you kill/weaken a couple enemies on enemy phase, then the rest of your team swoops in to finish off the rest, except maybe one enemy who is blocked off from reaching your most fragile unitsNo-permadeath SRPG: you kill/weaken a couple enemies on enemy phase, then the rest of your team swoops in and gets a few more kills, then the enemy kills a few of your units, then you kill some more, eventually all the enemies are gone and you have at least one unit remainingBoth permadeath and no-permadeath styles have their fans but I never see fans of the former telling the latter to change their games to satisfy a different audience
>>737337301>you have to hold back with your low survivability charactersWell designed FE maps have enemy placements that create zones that limit movement anyway, because even the strongest unit will get shrekt if he enters the range.
Fuck Rebecca in the ass
>>737337784If people want to cannon fodder their way to victory quite a few older SRPGs do that, Langrisser comes to mind.
>>737330434>Myrm>essentiallol
>>737310790Let them class up into ballistas.
>>737337440>>737337447casual mode sucks because the game isn't designed around it. actually removing permadeath would mean designing maps with the expectation that the player is going to lose some units every time.
>>737310790to start.. just give them better starting stats
>>737338050Yes, that is the core of the issue. You want Fire Emblem to not be like Fire Emblem.
Is this the thread we get to highjack FE discussion to talk about TO and UO?
>>737338169Sure, I love all these games.
>>737310790Look at Cra in Wakfu, they've got a bunch of trick arrows that include ones that move enemies or allies in a way that lets you strategize unit placement outside their own turns.
>>737338050The second you remove permadeath, people's expectations completely shift. I had a demo for an SRPG where I made it so you could revive units but at a high cost. My thoughts were that it's basically permadeath and should be treated that way but with a little wiggle room, a little bit of forgiveness. Players didn't see it that way, they played it like a game where you could expend units and then complained that the revival cost was too high
what the FUCK was his problem?
>>737338169It was a dogshit thread anyway.
I will celebrate when they finally kill off permadeath it seems gayden and 3H are the right steps for it.
>>737338169she needs to smash my balls
>>737338117so then you have to go back to the original argument and accept that juggernauting is a core part of the series and it's impossible to get rid of it
>>737338275how is TO compared to FF Tactics
FE Expo may be dead, but at least Alear, Kurt, and those four FW characters aren't on the list.
>>737330434Myrm over Mercs/Hero? Hell naw, even Navarre was origionally a Merc.
>>737338275>dad is an alcoholic >village was razed to the ground>his people are opressed>girl he likes only cares about her brotherWhat WASN'T his problem?
>>737338361at this point there's 3 different versions of the game and they all play completely differently. in general fft is to that's both more refined but also more dumbed down.
>>737338346I never claimed that juggernauting was something that had to be solved anyway. That has more or less been my argument since the beginning of this conversation, yes. You're still incorrect about it being an effect of permadeath itself, permadeath has 0 bearing on whether or not you can juggernaut, the thing that lets you juggernaut is the enemy and your units.
>>737338328This is a 19 years old.
>>737338361feels like it's the beta test of FFT. but it's still good.i prefer the classic version over the remakes but a lot of people feel differently.
>>737338408>they want us to forget colgate chanbros....
>>737338361Narratively it makes a point to show you the consequences of your actions and the horrors of war. FFT has some things to say but at the end of the day Ramza is an objective good guy that never has to make hard decisions. Denam the protagonist of TO on the other hand has to make nothing but hard decisions and cut down the people in his way whether they deserve it or not.
>>737338361I've never been able to get far into Final Fantasy Tactics but Tactics Ogre Reborn had me gripped instantly.
>>737338408https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EozuC9UBnwk
>>737338548threesome with nina and anna
>>737338679Eek. I tried TO (the one on the PSP) and absolutely hated it. Haven't played FFT but if it's wose that's enough for me to stay away.
If any TO heads are looking for a replay and haven't tried it already I HEAVILY recommend the One Vision mod for the PSP version. It's the definitive version for me personally.
>>737338621padi :DD
>>737338783That's fair. Over the years I've watched enough of FFT to know I'm not interested, I do think it has an engaging story, but I like TO better there too. I do think TO is the better game in just about every way.
>>737338786Did the dude developing it finally overhauled the endgame dungeons?
>>737338786What's so definitive about it
>>737338864I think so? It's been in development for like 10 years and I only found out about it 2 years ago. I spoke to the dev on discord and the mod is basically finished with only a crafting overhaul somewhere on the horizon.
>>737338361The appeal of FFT is the job system. You reclass and gather a bunch of skills on your main units and stomp the rest of the game. You can only deploy a few characters and every map is very short.Tactics Ogre feels pretty different and it's a much slower game. You don't do much reclassing, you deploy more characters per map, and enemies don't usually die in one hit. It's more of a typical srpg.
>>737338834>>737338834Dew's daughter is so hot
>>737338925Mostly just balance. No more OP archers from PSP are wonky damage numbers like in Reborn. Things work how you should expect them to work and every class and weapon type has a niche. Magic is diverse and not just reskins of eachother. Lots of the tedium was removed like failure on crafting. It's my favorite way to play even over Reborn.
>>737339197I'd prefer Holyn.
>>737338169I bought UO with the promise of it being like FE, but there was a distinct lack of gays. So basically, I was tricked.
>>737339197yeah larcei is hot
>>737339247Sorry bro. UO was for the straights.
>>737334767A reason to use them? In return for being able to shoot from two (sometimes THREE!!!!!) spaces away, they are almost completely fucking defenseless if anyone just walks up and slaps their stupid ass faces
>>737339338and animal fuckers
my own clone!
>>737339361
>>737339207does it make valkyries the hybrid attacker they're supposed to be or does it shove them even further into a weird niche?
>>737339492>lyn
>>737339748>Chrom
>we'll never return to 2010s /v/ discussion of fire emblem.
>>737339875It's mostly better now.
I think we need another time traveling FE game, but this time to the future.
>>737339953I want MILF Nowi.
>>737339875did we ever get a definitive answer to whether or not lyn wears panties?
>>737339910Maybe if you are from planet retard.
>>737340017There's actually much less of those around and the waifufags that do try get bullied so I'm all for the current state of things.
>>737334280Built for BBC (Big Byrce Cock)
>>737339875It's better now. Back in the pre-/vg/ era you couldn't talk about many FE games because no one had played them (except me). And there wasn't much gameplay discussion since everyone was super casual. And there was way less fanart so the same handful of mediocre lyn pics would get posted every thread.
how different would Awakening have been had Tiki not been in the game? would Nowi or Nah have taken her position in her divine dragon role? She was pushed in last minute. Meanwhile we have thees rabbit like humans to represent Laguz and we know nothing of them. what if FE20 is the first exalt game
>>737340198Yeah, now only the autists remain. I'll give the waifufags one thing, they're as obsessed as I am, just in different ways.
Is juggernauting a problem in other turn based strategy games without the ability to counter like FFT?
>>737339665Yes hybrid classes completely work. Spellblade/Valkyrie is an extremely flexible class that can lean damage, utility, or even tank because they can wear heavy armor. Trust me when I say everything works. The only thing the mod couldn't "fix" was the class based leveling system. The game is much less tedious but is still a bit of a grind. Easy accessible cheats do remedy these problems somewhat.
>>737340316Games with meaningful status effects can usually shut down juggernauts.
>>737340596>laughs in Ribbon
>>737340618>being a queer or a woman
>>737340631A jug is a jug, as they say.
imagine a game where tiki is the center protagonist. what genre would it be.
>>737340748Corruption h-game.
4/20 thought of the day: do you like the old scrolling preview of maps that went away after FE6, or was it a good change to get rid of them?
shadows is what fe x smt (or persona) sould have been
>>737341213The scrolling preview was a good idea, it was a good way to have the player think about the map design before playing on it.
>>737341213I have no idea what you're talking about so I guess it doesn't matter to me.
>>737341480the game would go clockwise starting from your units to each corner of the map and then back to your units.
>>737341649I'd prefer that not exist, I looked at the map before the chapter started.
Marriage with Marianne!
Sexo Tharja bikini
who would direct a fire emblem movie? would it be CG like the cutscenes or live action?
>>737334184All staffers get lumped into one
>wanting scumwood to touch your soon to be pozzed franchise
remember when Ike promoted to Lord in PoR and never saw that costume ever since, not even Heroes?
>>737342149Heroes isn't a Fire Emblem game because it doesn't have permadeath.
>>737341828It would definitely be CG. Nobody over at IS comes off as being live action adaptation guzzling faggots. Live action is saved for shitty stage plays and commercials
>>737336152>>737335989The only major "role" that's missing is rally slut, maybe aura if so much. But those can be folded into a subset of the above.
>>737342223Debuffers and puppeteers/summoners
>>737337931Retard
>>737337931Moron
>>737337931Intellectual
>>737340316fft has counters. it also has a deployment limit of 5 so you can't really afford to have characters that don't do anything.
>>737338419>FE1-3One and the same class. Primary role is being a fast and accurate infantry swordsman>FE4"Hero" is a strictly worse SM>FE5"Heroes" get Axes but they still share the same root class>FE6The formal Merc/Myrm split exists and is carried over today
https://x.com/ell_0314/status/2045851763383877848/photo/1
>>737342280Summoners are mostly an enemy function. Players only got to play with them like once.Debuffing doesnt need its own class, it can be a weapon property or added to staves to give them more shit to do that just heal.
Why haven't YOU made a Fire Emblem and not some shitty mod either?
>>737342707/vfeg/ already made an FE hack
>>737342707Because apparently none of you all can make a good one. Looking at Steam and it's pretty grim.
>>737342752That falls squarely under the "shitty mod" umbrella.
>>737335989>Framme wouldnt fit anywhereCleric. Just add Chain Guard as a personal skill.
>>737342752>and not some shitty mod>>737342776even the "good" ripoffs like fantasy maiden wars are
>>737342851Fantasy Maiden Wars is a ripoff of SRW, not FE.
>>737342752Still kinda bummed the relay for that didn't take off, but I suppose at that point there was already too much on the plate and shit being thrown around. Not to mention FE8 hasn't been legit been beaten. Last I checked anyway.
>>737342851FMW isn't a FE clone. It's SRW.
they autonigga'd us
>>737342884It got decently far? To like Valter or so, right? Farther than I expected considering it was a rather low-effort character swap hack.
>>737342707Because nobody wants to move beyond GBA.>Have to make sprites>Backgrounds>Story>Music With GBA most of this is already done for the end user
>>737342851FMW (and Battlemoon Wars) are SRW clones. The only major FE derivative is Dark Deity.
Sage
>>737342980What about Gales of Nayeli?
>>737342980Also SRPG Studio games.
>>737342842no one uses her for healing anon
post pregnant young tiki or no?
>>737343089kys instead
>>737343089Live yourself chad
>>737343102based
Total Janny Death
>>737343089always
>>737342939
>>737343570ramily
https://litter.catbox.moe/0riktcahikngsx3a.png
>>737343669god
>>737343669uh... that isn't the relay save
>>737343669i look like left
Anon delivered, I guess...
https://x.com/LewdMandala/status/2031788736384507934/photo/1
sleepy
new thread NOW
>>737343961nah
I don't wanna go back to /feg/...
>>737344030it's been 3 years since the merge
>>737344063And I'm still mad about it.
>>737344063and the discord troons are still shitting it up
>>737344030I don't blame you, that place is a shithole.
>>737344063
>kemono party hasn't uploaded in months>images wont load to bigger size when clicked>now the forums are apparently dead.shit.
Post porn
>>737344030/feg/ went to shit shortly before Awakening's english release
>>737344161>used kemono for true crime patreon vidsI'm too autistic for this world
recommend gimmick challenge runs for FE gamese.g. FE4 substitutes only, FE5 minimum recruitment
https://baraag.net/@Icecr
>>737344547Jesus Christ, I didn't even know this much dolphin porn existed.
>>737344607just go here insteadhttps://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/130740050
>>737344547Puddle porn
>>737344494FE12 no reclassing
>>737344494No Royals Conquest. Include only using Corn as a pair-up bot.
>>737344779That's a good one
>I only come to this shitfuck board for FE threads
i can't stop gooning to FE hentai
No one wants this sloppy seconds character
did you know adding copper in the water would turn blonde hair into green?
>>737344892>>737345135Sex
>>737344494kill yourself
>you will never have sex with your childhood friend and instead she rather have a fairytale ending rather being stuck with whatever you're doing in your life, gooning away.
>>737345475no
>>737344118You are even worse or the same
>>737345525No, I only spend like 1% of my time arguing about which Fire Emblem characters are gay or not.
>>737345524You should, just saying.
>>737345575kill yourself.
