Why did ray tracing flop?
raytracing threads on /v/ continue to be tremendously fucking stupid, I see
>leftSoul, liminal, lived in, verboten>rightSoulless, insincere, artificial, neo-touyoistic
>>737388475Still not possible without smoke and mirror tricks and cheats, such as Temporal AA and super low samplerate. And it requires dedicated hardware.Also does not fit anything but extremely "photorealistic" games, which not only always look boring as fuck compared to more stylized titles, but also had reached perfection during the raster lighting era. Which runs way better on oldass hardware too, without needing any upscalers or FG.We had 100% dynamic lights and shadows already during DX9 days, in STALKER games, Crysis, Serious Sam and such. MGSV, TW3, RE7-demake2, Death Stranding 1... all excellent examples of what you can do with a mere GTX card from 2015.
>>737388475Movies spend so much time making their lighting unrealistic because it improves the experience and makes things cinematic. Why doing the opposite for video games would not improve the experience is easy to understand. Ray tracing at the end of the day is just offloading time and resources from baked lighting dev side to hardware requirements user side.
>>737388475Relies on temporal AA and denoisera to upscale from noisy 1/8th res at best. It blurs any texture detail and eats 1/2 of your frame rate for no impactful benefit.
>>737389240I have to lol at poorfags and their cope
>>737388475Unreal Engine 5 uses ray tracing by default.
because losing 90% performance so your game can look 10% better and 90% more smeared isn't a good trade-off
>>737388475Lighting isn't just something you enable and it works, you still have to design the environment for it and use it properly.Same reason old gave with RTX enabled look like shit, because they were designed for specifically placed lighting.
because nobody actually gives a fuck about graphics as long as the game is good. I'm not buying a new computer just to I can appreciate something for three minutes that I'll completely be ignoring afterwards.
>>737391818And there's a very large number of people who hate it. The smeary TAA making 4K look like upscaled 480i is not what I wanted from the future. And you can't even say "lol, poorfag" because UE5's primary use of raytracing is NOT RTX compatible. This is also why I said way back when the 20x0 was released that RTX was dumb, because it was baking in the WORST rt implementation into the spec and leaving all the cooler, more useful ones out in the cold. Now we all have "RT cores" that are trash and AI upscaling to turn the trash into a crappy image when we could have had SDF acceleration by now.
>>737388475How did it flop when so many new games have it?
>>737393605Its a default option in UE5 as lumen auto populates all the light sources.This is why your fps is 15 on a 5090 with extreme DLSS and frame gen x5. Its totally unoptimized by garbage vibe coding "devs"
>>737393605>>737396946it only exists to make the devs job easier. same with unreal engine. the drawback is shortcuts always lead to lower quality games.
>>737388475No one asked for it but we were forced to accept it anyway. GPU manufacturers are just pushing technology onto their cards for feature checklists to make suits happy.>but it looks goodI'm still turning it off, the hit to FPS is not worth your lighting.
>>737397004>shortcuts always lead to lower quality gamesIf you think that more effort will make games better then you are retarded
i've only played those rtx demos and my opinion is that it's horrifically ugly in exchange for tanking the performance to shitscreenshots don't do it justice because it's worse in full motion
>>737391378and we laughs against paypigs and their arrest
Have you ever actually tried to trace a ray? Shit is boring af
>>737401316But when you shoot millions of them, it's beautiful.
Dark Soul 2 right now is awesome and it doesn't rely on rtx remix hacky garbage. It's really beautiful, not noisy and runs fast.I also really like Quake 2 RTX, which also isn't built on rtx remix, see the pattern here?I think Nvidia's neural/ray reconstruction denoising sucks, as soon as you simply shoot enough fucking ray and have a decent denoiser it's great.
>>737391378Not all poor people are lawyers.
>>737388640'sup jensen
>>737404636Nvidia didn't invent raytracing you fucking retard
>>737405460You know, I wonder who actually did. Pixar? Disney? I'd assume it would be one of the bigger 3D Animation players. Dreamworks?
>>737405504>Albrecht Durer c. 1532Neat.
>>737388772>verboten Lol retard was trying to sound edumacated
Too costly and expensive and baked lighting looks betterAlso reminder that baked lighting can be generated with ray tracing during development. In fact, that's basically standard practice since the 90s.
>>737405542That guy? Built the pope's personal gaming rig.
The average gamer is on hardware from 15 years ago. Same ones who cry about VR constantly
>>737406232No shit anon, the issue is baked lighting takes up storage and memory in larger scenes and is only viable in statically lit linear sequences.
>>737388910>Also does not fit anything but extremely "photorealistic" gamesYou're retarded. What makes the game look stylized or not is the assets and shaders, not the lighting. Rasterized lighting tricks already emulate most of what raytracing already does or outright uses a neutered form of raytracing, like screen space reflections, just in a much more limited scope. Raytracing was always pushed forward by 3d cartoons like Ice Age and Monster House, or anything Pixar was doing.
>>737406459Ya and gay tracing takes up $2000 video cards
>>737406664Better than 1tb of data for your lightmaps
>>737406232>Also reminder that baked lighting can be generated with ray tracing during development. In fact, that's basically standard practice since the 90s.No it wasn't. They weren't raytracing baked lights in the 90s, especially not for any sort of GI effect. Maybe the late 2000s
>be RTX>make things look slightly shinier>add loads of noise and flickering>halves framerategee I wonder
>>737388475ghosting, slow lighting adjustments to the slightest movement or lighting chagne, and the weird speckles that look like tv static on everything all make it look like ass
>>737388475I know the non-ray traced age looks "incorrect" compared to real world, but it looks better. Why?
>>737407550Increased contrast, stronger lines, bolder colors, etc. ray tracing can and does do all that and more when used properly. Unfortunately too many devs these days are incompetent or overworked, or both, and have no idea how to use the tools they're required to use. Some shareholder tells the board that ray tracing is the newest tech, the executive forces the game to include it, marketers hype it up, devs add it, and nobody involved knows what the fuck it is or how it works, except maybe a handful of people who have too much other shit to worry about, and this is how popular features get forced into games because some random faggots want to make more money
>>737406590NTAI think you need to work on your reading comprehension. He said that kind of lighting doesn't fit the style, not make the style.
>>737407550The indirect lighting example is exaggerated. The sides of the boxes facing the colored walls are too saturated with their respective colors.
>>737388993Not really, modern movie productions blast diffused light on the scene. It's a scourge.
>>737388475Because when you move everything traced turns into a smudgeThis wasn't ever solved and at the same time they want to push for more path tracingHave you ever played cyberpunk in PT mode? I urge you to turn on the setting and observe the floor at night time. When you strafe left or right it's gonna completely blur and once you stop it's gonna take like 2.5 seconds to fully stabilize and finally show detail
arrived too earlycomputers are not ready to run ray tracing at 60 fps
>>737388475I think the biggest issue was that we could already "fake" the lighting since the 360/PS3 days and most people actually playing the game won't notice the difference. Also the earlier tech is way cheaper in every regard now.
>>737388910Pretty much every game uses ray tracing, even the non-realistic looking games, its just baked at build time. Problem with baked lighting is the entire scene is rigid as iron. Back in the old days before proper lighting, games had the possibility of fully dynamic geometry, something we lost.
>>737411234Great until you want anything in the scene to actually move.
I just want to go back to stencil shadows
>>737388475Real life is rgimWe want video games to look like video games not realistic
>>737411265I played Indiana Jones and The Great Circle, my first game that required raytracing hardware. There's a room that has a lot of trinkets, including some mirrors, surely that room mare use of the hardware it requires... nope, it's a static room, and the mirrors that are there reflect jack shit. Raytracing is a meme.
Component prices went up 300% so nobody can afford ray tracing.
this confuse the /v/irgins and the poors (pleonasm)
>>737388475right has a bunch of artifacts and blurs when utilized
>>737388475It's cool but pretty hard to notice and appreciate in many situations. The thing is depending on the materials and intensity of the light source you can have setups IRL that look pretty much dead on to the left as well as to the right. So the "whoaaaa it looks so much more real now" impression isn't even achieved, it's more often "ok it does look different now, it's better I guess but I didn't mind how it looked before, it's not a game changer." If anything people like sharper more dramatic lighting more.
>>737406114He means it resembles the style of Paul Verboten, obviously.
>>737388475The Jews made computing several orders of magnitude more expensive. Plus, why would I ever upgrade my graphics card? To see the nasolabial folds on shaniqua in 4K raytracing? Fuck you.
>>737388475by the time it arrived, art departments were already so good at lightmapping that it wasn't really even necessary anymore.
>>737411361>Great until you want anything in the scene to actually move.Unless you're specifically making a game with world destruction elements this is totally irrelevant.And even then you'd want "fake" lighting to help with visual clarity in a game like that.You know something we already knew about Minecrap with shaders years before hardware ray traced minecrap was a thing.
>>737414415Minecraft shaders all look dogshit
>>737388475more like gay tracinghomo faggots
>>737414464You can say they're totally impractical to actually play it with, and some of them DO look stupid, but you're full of beans if you just want to say as a whole they look "bad".
>>737411234>we could already "fake" the lighting since the 360/PS3 daysThe other thing is irl you don't even notice anything other than hard shadows typically, and your eyes automatically adjust to varying light levels. So having a complex light gradient on an object that goes from 10% to 30% darkness Vs just having it be 20% dark all over isn't even noticeable
>>737414505They ALL look dogshit.Only absolute mouth-breathers like them.
>>737388475>whyray tracing is just light simulation, aka realismand like all realism in games it will age the game and doesnt replace proper art direction.a good art style will be more memorable and striking to the eyes than any realism shit ever. That and its a shitty hard to run technology
>>737388475Not worth the performance hit even if it looks better.
>>737414656Imagine if we had always done lighting with RT and baked lighting was invented yesterday, everyone would be talking about it like it was the most revolutionary tech ever
>>737388475we've moved on to path tracing now
>>737414729Raytracing was invented in 1532
>>737412369soul
>see an article about improvements in PT, now 2-3X faster with better quality>still low fps>looks slightly less shitwow!https://research.nvidia.com/labs/rtr/publication/lin2026restirptenhanced/
>>737414818This is the output that the denoiser gets run on then you get all the smudging and ghosting and whatnot.
>>737388640FPBPAnd reading this thread proves it
>>737388475It's 10 gorrilion gigaflops for shit that's a marginal improvement in image quality. It's mostly just tech for devs who don't want to actually make their own lighting.
>>737388475When you take a step back, you begin to realize something.Is ray tracing really that much of an actual, necessary generational leap if it's something that people can easily disable in the settings? Even on Consoles via "Performance Mode"?
>>737406232Standard practice was radiosity, not ray tracing.
>>737411265Before baked lightmaps you had baked vertex lighting + light/shadow drawn on textures. The dynamic lights were added on top. The question you should be asking is why can't dynamic lights exist on top of the baked lightmaps? The answer is... they can, and they do. Any game with a flashlight has a shadowcasting dynamic light that interacts with the baked lightmaps. So why is it that as soon as the dynamic light isn't a flashlight, the dev's brain leaks out their ears and says you need RT?
Raytracing and pathracing are so fucking cancerous.
>>737414209Retard cope
>>737414582Your face looks like dog shit lel
People figured out the scam, more accurate didn't necessarily mean better but it did mean devs could put in a lot less effort and offload the massive performance hit to players.
>>737388475We had better looking games before with 3 times better performance
>>737412369>"just place some point lights and animate their intensity and pos-">NOOO WE NEED RAYTRACING FOR THAT SAAR
>>737388475>Hmmm I think I want to cripple my framerate from 144fps to 30fps to have better reflections
>>737412191The hybrid nonsense that modern games do is not proper raytracing.
>>737422176>We had better looking games beforeNo
>>737414415> Unless you're specifically making a game with world destruction elements this is totally irrelevant.Fully static environments becoming the default is a form of Stockholm syndrome.
just turn the brightness up nigga
>>737411393Stencil shadows were objectively shit.They didn't look very good and the performance costs ramped up very quickly with scene complexity. It doesn't scale well.It's just objectively inferior in almost every regard. You may as well be wanting to go back blob shadows.
>>737422790>>737422846ALL lighting is reflections. The goal for realistic lighting means the simulation of realistic reflections for every kind of material.
>>737388475Because it loses to 20 year old game tech in features while requiring 20 times more powerful hardware.
>>737423465Fuck off>Muh realismMake every game environment a ghetto and simulate shit and pee odor then
>>737423512Except it doesn’t, because 20 year old game tech isn’t selling, modern game tech is. Fat fuck contrarian dipshit.
>>737423634>>Muh realismObjectively the best thing a game can aspire to.It's always funny to see retards like you shit on "MUH REALISM" with one breath and then go onto claim games like Silent Hill proves you don't need "MUH REALISM" when Silent Hill WAS MUH REALISM for it's day.
>>737423634Hell, what I just said applies even to unrealistic lighting or stylized approaches too, unless you don't want persistent dynamic lighting.
>>737423760The classic is when they bring up F.E.A.R. or Mirror's Edge
>>737423853>or Mirror's EdgeWhich is especially stupid because the main reason it looks so good is DICE bought ray tracing tech for the game.
>>737405460Nvidia are the ones who used it as their marketing feature and pushed it everywhere, including paying off retarded shills like Digital Foundry, who then resulted in low IQ NPC regurgitating their bullshit.
>>737423749
>>737424002Oh look, it's another retard
>>737414349That game use rt.
>no argumentConcession accepted.
>>737414818This is actual scientific research. 2-3X is great. Research is an iterative process. But yes for gaming RT and PT, I'm glad the hype's died down.
>>737388475path tracing is good
>>737423512>>737423749Raytracing isn't modern tech. The technological concept predates computer graphics itself. It isn't even new for video games either, it's simply become a lore more widespread as it's getting possible to do it in real-time.
>>737424237>a lore morea lot more*
>>737421862>Massive performance hitThis isn't even true anymore. Spider gay's RT run on fucking consoles.
>>737424281Yeah but he can't run it on his 15 year old PC therefore it's bad. These threads are all cope from poorfag retards.
>>737424281Yeah, at 540p.
>>737421862>couldn't even do a planar reflection that would only include the player character as that would require having a brainThis is the reason brownoids like >>737424371 are pushing this garbage.
>>737388475because there's no benefit for the consumer, it's purely tech that lets devs be lazier and instead expects consumers to spend more on their hardware to cover up the slack.
>>737424537>projecting
>>737424626Yeah I'm projecting my above average IQ on you.Retard.
>>737424237>The technological concept predates computer graphics itselfOrly? Care to expand on its origins?
>>737425116Read the thread
>>737425040>I'm projecting my above average IQpfffft. OK kid
