>>737446708
You do all three of those.
You are responsible for healing yourself
You are responsible for avoiding/mitigating damage yourself
You are expected to deal damage while doing all of the above.
Guild Wars 2 kinda did it right.

>>737446708
what's the purpose of a tank in an mmorpg, i have never seen a tank working

>>737447210
what mmorpgs have you played

>>737446708
I don't play mmo, but I do play Xenoblade, can I speak up?

>>737448387
Yes

>>737446708
A+B=C
Red vs Blue
two clearly distinct and separate forces face off, compete, fight to win. A+B=C where C is victory.

>>737446708
>engineer
>rogue
>strategist
>scout
just add in more clases

>>737448781
>healer
>dps
>healer
>dps

>>737449085
engineers definitely aren’t healers. not sure why you’re too retarded to know this.

>>737448781
These are all actually one of the three in the OP

>>737447210
Tanks are an archaic role designed around the latency in MMOs. You always needed someone capable of taking the hits the stronger enemies dealt because it was literally impossible to avoid them. MMOs eventually created jobs entirely around this role, which also brought forth the dedicated healer capable of keeping the tank alive. DPS was simply "everyone else" since dealing damage was what they were reduced to. Tanks have since been fleshed out with abilities to disrupt and distract, but historically their role has always been to stand there and take it while everyone else does the work uninterrupted.

>>737449157
see >>737449148

>>737449148
Your dumb fucking face when I use the "Auto Medi-Bot" skill on the party.
Absolute fucking retard.

>>737449280
maybe design better engineering classes then libtard

>>737449280
Kek

>>737446708
i played as a bard, so dunno. support needs to be there.

>>737449335
so then the engineer would just be a different flavor of dps

>>737449389
thats dps according to OP

>>737448450
Well, I think the problem doesn't lie in the roles, but the very aggro system that create them.
I feel like different enemies should have different aggro system. Like, you have that giant wolf go to the physically weakest party members, and it can make all of the other wolves go after those characters.
Also, Attackers and Defenders should be the same "role", since I kinda find it silly that swordfighter can do damage, but somehow can't parry well. I know that balance and mechanics are the reasons why things are that way, but I feel like the trinity is just too damn restrictive.
Speaking of Defenders, they should have more way of protecting the allies aside from getting the aggro, like having a "cover" ability. Xenoblade 3 tried to have something like this, but I feel like its not that big of a deal. Imo, ideal for me is to have an active ability (like the art in Xenoblade) that let you intercept enemies attack when activated between them and a targeted ally. In fact, I feel like defense should be more proactive in general, not just in that real time MMO combat, but in most RPG in general where its just a stat you set up and then forget.

>>737449451
no it would not libtard

>>737447210
To keep being the main target of the enemies and survive attacks that no one else would if they aren't a tank

>>737449530
what would it do

Remove healers. Health should only regenerate outside of combat.
Healing is a crutch.

>>737446708
There's no reason to hate the trinity. There's only cause to hate how games utilize it.
>>737447136
>Guild Wars 2 kinda did it right.
At launch you had 4 DPS and 1 supporter and just learned damage mitigation through zoning and cornering like it's Diablo. This is still the meta for 5 man PvE content. When raids dropped with bigger groups they instantly brought back aggro mechanics, tanks, and dedicated support healers. Ultimately pushing MMO mechanics means you have to push players to optimize their builds and that almost always leads players in a group to maximize roles and congrats you're back to the trinity.

>You are responsible for healing yourself
>You are responsible for avoiding/mitigating damage yourself
>You are expected to deal damage while doing all of the above.
The most successful MMO that has done this and mostly kept to it has been Old School Runescape.

>>737449389
Did you support by increasing everyone's offenses? DPS. Did you support by increasing everyone's defenses? Healer. Every support can be reduced to healer or DPS depending on if they focus on offensive support or defensive support.

>>737449553
use your imagination you dumb nigger.

my engineer can build ladders to access areas we normally wouldn’t be able to.

>>737449389
Support is healing

>>737449690
that sounds like a positively terrible idea to base an entire job around when you could just attach that to someone who does something worthwhile outside of building ladders

>>737449690
So healer then.

>>737449598
But that's what I meant by saying they did it kinda right.
Every "class" has a skill to heal itself. Every "class" avoids and mitigates damage in their own unique ways.
I get it it wasn't perfect but they had the right idea. Just give everyone every single part of the trinity.

>>737446708
Does anyone actually calculate their damage per second even more? Feels like an outdated term.

>>737449463
well OP is a known faggot cocksucker, so don't listen to him.

>>737449569
Combat healing was a terrible mistake. That's why we have powerful sponges in instanced dungeons and so many bullshit unavoidable mechanics, because the healer can mitigate all challenge away.
And lets not even talk about pvp, it's not fucking fun at all when the most dangerous target can suddenly recover all its HPs 4 time in a row.

>>737449690
Yes that's what a healer does

>>737449612
yeah yeah, but mana regen, run speed, pulling, crowd control
it's a stupid trinity. and you're stupid too.

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>>737446708
REMOVE ALL DEFENSE MECHANICS (for players)

REPLACE HEALERS (with potions)

GIVE DPS (armor penetration)

>>737449569
actually not a bad idea and it works fairly well in games that have done it but it is harder to design them.

>>737450075
bundling all that under healers and just calling the role "support" is being generous because otherwise you're just a glorified consumable item and people already don't want to queue as a healer

>>737450037
no they don’t you dumb libtard

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>>737449946
>Does anyone actually calculate their damage per second even more? Feels like an outdated term.
There is always one THOSE faggots you will always get after every few parties who has the DPS tracker on who must/always seem to think it's that important to pust the DPS of the party in the party chat (only if he is the highest) in a game that has classes like Tanks, Healers, and Supports.

I see it a lot in WoW servers

>>737446708
There's nothing to fix because 95% of MMO players like the system
The 5% who don't quit MMO's and now just shit and piss and cry about wanting MMO's to change to suit THEM instead of the majority
Those people will continue to shit piss and cry not realizing they are the loud minority, everyone else doesn't give a fuck
Stop asking retards who don't even play the games and go around an MMO town and ask them if they'd want to get rid of the trinity
Everyone will tell you no

>>737449904
>Just give everyone every single part of the trinity.
Maybe that's the problem? If everyone is a jack of all trade, then what's the point of classes? Either go classless, or have classes excel in some eras while lacking in others.
For example, the Ironclad in StS got multiple way of healing himself on top of his relic. Meanwhile, the Defect only got one Power that is basically discount Ironclad relic and Silent's healing options are inexistent and rely only on avoiding damage.

>Main Tank
>Off-Tank
>Melee Physical DPS
>Magical Caster DPS
>Pure Healer/Buffer
>Dedicated Mezzer/CC

They never make this because it's hard to find 6 people to run regular content with, but this is objectively the best party configuration

>>737449904
GW2 did it a lot better but playing current fractals or raids don't really feel like they've escaped the trappings of the trinity. Without at least a healer and boon support you're gonna be failing a lot and most raid bosses are built around someone being some sort of tank (as in, having high toughness) or to be the one in charge of taking various hits and positioning. Everyone is expected to learn major and most minor mechanics of the content and engage with them to avoid damage or succeed various checks but FFXIV functions about the same while being more traditionally trinity typical. Again it's not really the trinity, it's the way that the games are made around it.

Heals can only set up shields and also do location based buffs/debuffs

>>737450721
bro your ranged physical DPS?

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>>737446708
>Since you hate this system so much, please give me a better alternative.
The only game I can think of was Asheron's Call, where you can make up an entirely new class all on your own, since the game didn't have archetypes but selective skills you can choose and level, meaning you can make a magic caster wearing plate armor.

But Asheron's Call wasn't a traditional MMO; they focused more on PvP faggots, and dungeons were more "blast everything" and "how well you can use your abilities"

>>737446708
2/3s instead of 1/3s.
>Offensive: Tanky DPS
>Defensive: Tanky Healer
>Support: DPS Medic

>>737450204
>queue as a healer
>queue as a healer
>queue as a healer
>QUEUE
god i hate you cunty faggot zoomers so much. REEEEEEE

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How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?

>>737450804
uh oh melty

>>737450762
fair, I guess you can add them and make the mezzer/cc a melee class

>>737450870
LOTRO for example already sorta does that with burglar being debuffs/cc and off-melee dps

>>737450778
Say, did anyone try to do a MMO trinity version of Dragon's Dogma's vocation system?
For example :
>Hybrid
>DPS - Support
>DPS - Support
>Tank - Support
>Specialist
>Full DPS
>Full Tank
>Full Support
Then you had a jack of all trade and boom, 7 classes.

>>737450204
>people already don't want to queue as a healer
speak for yourself I like my instant queues. enjoy waiting 20 minutes on a group, chud

>>737450941
most RPGs/MMOs have nearly completely eliminated the dedicated "Mezzer" role and it's a damn shame

I like this system already, there's no need to change it.
t. healslut

>>737451012
i usually play tanks so i'm in the instant queue boat too though i usually just play with my friends anyway

>>737451008(me)
And yes, I meant DPS - Tank

Has anyone in the history of these threads ever actually worked as a game designer for a MMO company or are we having all these theorywank threads for nothing?

>>737451201
What do you think?

>>737451201
its just glow niggers trying to bait anons on modern game design. anyone with even the slightest background on it knows OP is wrong.

>>737451063
Tanking is chillest I admit but healing is also relaxing. On nu-wow your whole screen flashes if you're standing in something you're not meant to stand in as dps. Healing is just health bar wack-a-mole while you stand back and outside of all the aoe

t. healed since kara

why do you keep making this thread when you refuse to acknowledge any answer that doesn't fit your preconceptions of how mmos have to work, which includes a trinity class system?

>>737446708
It's best if everyone can be a solo beater like in SAO.
maybe you can't avoid the hp class being tank, in a conventional game, but you can make it less obvious with less tank skills i hear dnd does it but idk

>>737446708
>read thread
>retards think mmo holy trinity has always been like this
>some retard suggests something from DD
>talk about how your character should just do everything
Mmos used to have holy trinity + resource management guy + buffer + debuffer + puller + crowd control + guy doing hyper specific thing only their class can do
Its fucking amazing to see how anyone thinks the holy trinity is “standard”. It makes me think mmos are just infested by normalfags reined in by wow or wow just ruined the expectations of younger players with its dogshit design.

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>>737446708
Character does everything but has to manage a limited inventory and supplies for healing for any given encounter.

give every class the ability to do all three and then make specific fights and enemies that require different classes to do a different role every fight. like one fight needs a mage bubble tank and a shout warrior to buff and heal and then another fight needs a rogue dodge tanking with a priest blasting with holy damage

>>737447136
>Guild Wars 2 kinda did it right
Can you lead off with this next time so I can safely disregard your post without wasting time? I was literally starting to write a reply about how GW2 did this and it was horrible and here I see you just are fundamentally retarded and so can't be reasoned with.

If the role of a tank is damage mitigation, and the role of a healer is health replacement, than shouldn't a defensive buffer be considered a tank?

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>>737447210
The mob will attack someone. That's what mobs do.
You can let the mob decide who, or you can put a guy with overly fat armor and health to volunteer so no one else has to worry about that, and healers get a convenient "apply healing here" funnel for most of the mob's damage.

>>737452095
Depends on how well that buffer takes a punch to the face

>>737451604
EQ was the zenith of MMO class design. WoW jsut came in like a dump truck full of shit and for whatever casual cunty faggots (like OP) ate it up in such huge numbers that it became the norm.

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>>737451008
>Hybrid: REEE IM NOT DOING ENOUGH DPS
>DPS - Support: REEEEE IM NOT DOING ENOUGH DPS
>Specialist: REEEEEE IM NOT DOING ENOUGH DPS
>Jack of all trades: REEEE IM NOT DOING ENOUGH DPS
>DPS - Tank: REEEE IM NOT DOING ENOUGH DPS
>Tank - Support: REEEEE I DONT HAVE ENOUGH TANKYNESS OR HEALING
>Guild leader: Full DPS seems to be the best performing player, let's funnel him all the gear and only recruit Full DPS from now on.

>>737451008
What does a Specialist do that isn't Support, DPS, or Tank? Do they debuff? Because that feels like it could just be Support.

>>737446708
Git gud and don't get hit.

>>737446708
Tank+DPS+Control+Buff/Debuff/Heal

>>737446708
>DPS (Damage)
I fucking hate you motherfuckers for keep misusing this term. DPS stands for DAMAGE PER SECOND

>>737452634
Buff + Debuff + Heal as their own classes
Seperate Tanks into Tanks and Summoner (fragile but spam their own mobs to absorb hits)

>>737452937
But what if you do more than a damage per second?
Then does it become DSPPSPSPPSS?

>>737450165
/thread

>>737452458
I think the "Hybrid" and "Specialist" lines are supposed to be headlines for the three below each.

>>737451957
There is nothing wrong with the idea, GW2 failed in its execution

>>737453226
No, retard. You may be to young to get this, but in games like, let's say Warcraft, there's a buff which cause you to take damage over time like poison. That's what DPS actually means.

>>737454058
But what if more than 1 poisons per seconds?

>>737454169
The damage itself is still called DPS. Usually it depends whether the debuff stacks or not. Regardless, it's called DPS. If you're getting damage from regular attacks, that's just called a damage.

>>737454058
What if the poison ticks every 2 seconds? It's not DPS

>>737454058
no, that's a DOT. DPS is a measurement of how much total damage you are doing per second.

>>737454342
2 is just 1+1

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>>737454562

Tanking need to be more involved.
The archaic tank and spank is boring.
The role of tank should be the most active.
The monster AI should be more smart and actively target the player who is hurting it - the dps.
The tank should have to intercept the monster.

>>737446708
>Since you hate this system so much, please give me a better alternative
BE CREATIVE

Give out asymmetric roles. Let one player play an RTS, controlling minions, building towers, picking logistical routes to give players supply. Have another player play an infiltrator, who goes on a stealth mission to sabotage the enemy, eliminate towers, spawn points and such. Some players can have a flying role or a cavalry role on the ground, while others players are part of the main fighting force and advance with the bulk of them. There is no reason to have every player always be together and experience the same situation.

>but MMO players won't like this
Then attract a completely new crowd to play an MMO with this system. No reason to always cater to no-life groknards.
>but if only a single player fails his role, then the entire raid falls apart
Then don't make it so it doesn't fall apart.

>>737446708
make the healer a bot. too few people want to do that shit.

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I don't

I love it, because I'm a submissive healing bitch boy and I love it when my tank yells at me

>>737446708
Tank and DPS are basically the two roles/components of a Phalanx, the shields and spears respectively. The healer is an extra, as far as the principle that underlies the "trinity" is concerned. With this in mind, natural fourths include:
>fixer (repairer) who "heals" the equipment rather than the players
>buffer who makes the other three more effective
>wizard who accounts for meta-fuckery the other three can't do anything about (e.g. being cursed or teleported)

>>737454461
No, UGH. Look, it is damage over time, but in Warcraft's case, most of them are dealt per second, so that's how you measure it. The FUCKING point is, regular damage =/= (IS NOT) DPS

>>737446708
Gameplay degenerates into the "holy" trinity because devs refuse to force players out of their comfort zone.
It is as shrimple as that and I don't think you can convince me otherwise.

>>737446708
That base trinity is ok, but you can add layers of complexity to make it more interesting. For example, take terrain and movility into account. You can add a saboteur class, that has high movility but low dps to get past enemy tank and go for low health support roles in enemy team, or a sneak/invisibility power for the same reason. Add counter-saboteur class, such as a zoning-class that builds turrets or such to avoid enemies sneaking or one that alters terrain to make it harder to traverse.

Its just building layers upon the base trinity to create more emergent strategies and make battles more chaotic so new players feel there is a lot of different ways to play and hide the fact that the whole game is all just a slightly more complex spreadsheet.

>>737455190
Yes it is. DPS is an overall measurement. No one, and I mean no one, refers to damage over time effects as DPS except when including it in the overall calculation.

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>>737446708
There's about a billion games in every genre including MMORPGs that don't use Metzen's retard trinity. Why are we pretending its obligatory still when games that use it are dead to the point of only being played by 1k subscriber youtubers and ERPers?

>>737455467
You described Spy and Pyro.

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Dofus nailed class variety
>Damage
>Healing
>Buffing
>Debuffing
>Positioning
>Summoning
And you can split those and specialize even further, so there's a variety of each.
Damage dealing alone has 8x specific roles.
Healing is simple, but not many classes can full heal for instance.
Buffing can be offensive, defensive, mobility, or some other unique statuses.
Debuffing is the same.
Positioning has so many gimmicks to it.
Summoning can encompass all of the above, but with the caveat of abusing summons to lock enemies or block LOS and abuse summons as their own health pool.

>>737455483
It was cribbed from EverQuest and they just removed the need for an enchanter on top, by giving some limited crowd control abilities to a lot of classes.

>>737449612
Sure, everything can be dps and healer if you twist words to mean whatever you want.

Actually, lets go further on your logic, every class is dps.

Dps is dps because it deals damage.

Tank is dps because it distracts the enemy so the dps can deal damage for longer thus the total damage output of the party is higher.

Healer is dps because by healing tank the party deals damage uninterrupted for longer thus higher total damage output than without healer.

See how dumb your logic is? You're literally doing the meme "Every card in slay the spire is a block card".

What if you could only heal yourself. You could have "support" classes that gives buffs to others but for healing it's all on you. No more blame game or avoiding accountability.

>>737450037
Healers focus on healing. They don't build ladders. Its not their defining trait. A class centered about terrain manipulation is not healer class. If you think you you're just stretching the definitions of the words to the point that words lose their meaning.

>>737455623
Yes

>>737455847
That's a bit dumb.
Why wouldn't there be classes that can heal others in a pinch?

>>737446708
If WoW is a "hard trinity" then the solution is a "soft trinity". Don't force players to choose between predefined combat roles that dictate the way they play, instead design a more generalized system where players can customize their class/build to fit any role that might arise within an encounter.
Limit the effectiveness of healing, give players defensive abilities to compensate. Make enemies able to strategize and pick their own targets. Enemy behavior should be dynamic instead of scripted, require tactics and creativity throughout the encounters. Victory shouldn't depend on your group composition but the plays each individual player makes throughout the encounters, how well they all cycle their cooldowns, position themselves, crowd control, cooperate with each other and perform encounter specific mechanics. Such a system has greater room for creativity within encounters because they don't have to be designed with the usual trinity roles in mind so it won't be as boring.

EverQuest? Oh wait, you don't actually care and just want to shitpost

>>737453858
There is everything wrong with the idea. An mmo where classes don't actually have any reliance in eachother makes nonsense of group dynamics. You turn pve content into a ball of samey people doing the exact same thing as one another, which is exactly why the most complex group fight mechanics in that game were "throw object" or "use object." If everybody is a tanky DPS healer, then nobody is, and this severely limits developers with ways to actually challenge a party that doesn't hinge on insta-death hopscotch mechanics.

You are retarded. Stop ruining my genre because your retarded ass got hooked on mmos instead of Monster Hunter for whatever reason.

>>737446708
Mabinogi. The end goal is to do oodles of damage. Through gear optimization you learn to tank/CC which lets you set up your damage.

>>737449904
So why do you need other players if you can do everything by yourself?

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>>737447136
>You are responsible for healing yourself
>You are responsible for avoiding/mitigating damage yourself
>You are expected to deal damage while doing all of the above.
What the fuck are my party members there for, then? The whole point of these kinds of games is your character can't do it all. This means you need to work together to do dungeons, and when it comes to 1on1 PvP you have to deal with the shortcomings of your class while playing into its strengths.

>>737449206
>but historically their role has always been to stand there and take it while everyone else does the work uninterrupted.
You have to be talking Everquest or even before then. Threat has been a thing since day 1 in WoW. You have to keep your threat high and keep the enemies off your healer and DPS. If you can't keep them off the DPS sometimes the healer has to heal them. Of course, the way most fights are designed combined with modern min/maxing means if anyone is pulling aggro off you someone fucked up and is going to get kicked. Whether that's the tank doing too little damage, not knowing how to taunt, DPS/heals pulling extra packs, whatever. But since the early 2000s the tank has done a lot more than just sit there and soak damage. In classic pugs its not even uncommon for geared ganks to out DPS noob DPS players.

>>737452095
> than shouldn't a defensive buffer be considered a tank?
Not really.
A tank role isn't "just" reducing overall damage applied to the raid, it's also to be able to eat in the face specific mechanics that would way too problematic to get immune too for everyone, it's also to be able to place & orient the boss/mob in a way that's convenient (like turning the dragon's head *away* from most of the raid), and also to make sure only one healthbar is in need of serious constant healing (the whack-a-mole game for healer is only fun when it's light-mid, not when it change into a game of "guess who took aggro and is about to need everyone's full healing output RIGHT NOW").

>>737457096
There are plenty of ways to make classes rely on each other beyond healing or tanking. For example, an immobile caster needs someone to keep the enemy pinned down while they fire their nuke. It's all about synergies, the tank/heal/dps is just the lazy way of doing it.

>>737457442
To speed things up. Especially in big dungeons? To enable new tactics?

Sure I can kill everyone 1 by 1 or I can just get a teammate to help group and aoe. All depends on the game. You can't think of it like WoW or FFXIV removing their roles but still keeping their designs.

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>>737446708

>>737457729
>>Sure I can kill everyone 1 by 1 or I can just get a teammate to help group and aoe.
Terrible dungeon design if you can kite every single pack into 1on1 fights. The concept of a class not being able to do everything isn't unique to WoW or even MMOs, its a pretty core tenet of RPGs. This is why grognards shit on stuff like modern Bethesda slop which lets you make a Level 999 shitbird who can excel with every single weapon and armor type. Being limited makes the game more fun. And that blanket statement is true for pretty much every genre ever. Racing games wouldn't be very cool if you had noclip enabled.

>>737446708
They could stop designing games to mandate specific group comps. It being mathematically impossible to complete a run without a tank is unfun. Tanks being unable to do a lot of damage is unfun. Allowing support such as debuffs and buffs to be useful is fun.
Freedom good.

Change Healing to Support and I'm fine with it. There should never be a dedicated Healer role.

>>737457898
Racing games suck, they don't have any tanks, healers or dps.

>>737446708
Every character has to do all three roles. You can only achieve the efficiency of three pure builds by working together constantly.

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>>737458148
>DPS
speed
>tanks
body blockers
>healers
cocksucking roasties

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>>737458148
>he didn't play Carbon

>>737458112
When Overwatch came out I mained tracer to spectacular success but sometimes I had no choice but to play healer if I wanted to win and Mercy was actually kind of fun even if the gameplay was just alternating between giving people piss and blue mountain dew enemas. I can kind of see the appeal, maybe. Its was less stressful than having to get super sweaty pushing solo to carry a bunch of a retards that's for sure.

>>737446708
ranged dps
melee dps
hybrid dps

>>737446708
There isn't one with the current formula of MMOs

Every MMO that tried to deviate or do away with it was heavily criticized and ridiculed

The issue is the healer. By having a healer role, you need somethign for them to do, which means you need unavoidable damage, which means you need a tank etc etc.

I don't think they idea of a frontline fighter is bad, but what you need are crowd control fighters, and falnking fighters, and ranged (skill based) fighters. Replace healers with CROWD CONTROL and short buffs.

Vermintide 2 did it right

>>737447136
It was so fucking bad in GW2 that it made me become a Trinity believer forever

>>737446708
Tank
>Threat is an integer that builds from zero but constantly decays over time
>No one player can hold aggro 100% of the time for a variety of reasons (incoming damage too dangerous, too many mobs, aggro abilities are short/weak in general)
>Therefore a balanced party needs several tanks (~1/3rd of the total) to coordinate cooldowns and switch off targets
>Some tanks are better at lots of little attacks, some are better at infrequent large hits, some are better at physical, some at magic, etc.

Support
>Players need a variety of stats to deal damage effectively (accuracy to not miss, power to pump the base numbers up, pierce to get through armor/resistance)
>Same thing on the defensive side (move speed to get out of dangerous areas, HP shields to survive hits too high for base HP, Heal/Regen to recover from constant incoming hits)
>Therefore a balanced party needs several supporters (~1/3rd of the total) to cover all their bases and activate the important buffs for the situation (they can't have every support ability active at once due to MP/cooldown/cast time constraints)

Control
>Encounters come in several varieties, swarms of little enemies, tanks that knock players back while ranged units fire behind them, single giant dragon with directional attacks (fire breath front, wing buffet side, etc.)
>Enemies are tuned such that if all of them attacked the party at full force, the players would absolutely die
>Therefore a balanced party needs several controllers (~1/3rd of the total) to juggle short duration abilities that slow/knockback melee units, interrupt/blind ranged units, and weaken giant bosses
>There's a magnitude system in place that limits the degree of control effects, multiple slows for large targets, once a control effect has been successfully applied it goes on internal cooldown before it can be applied again

There we go, a functional MMO. I accept payment in yachts.

>>737447136
>guild wars 2 kinda did it right
my friend group played that when it launched and the trinity was so bad most of them quit or straight up boycotted doing dungeon content

>>737458727
I can't think of a worse game to do PvE in. The entire point was WvW. That's like playing XIV to do PvP.

>>737457780
Powerful.

>>737446708
Frontline. These are close quarters combatants responsible for their own safety and damage as they fight enemy melee combatants.

Backline. These are ranged combatants that support melee combatants from afar by providing covering fire against enemy melees and picking out ranged enemies. The melees need to physically tie enemy melees in combat to prevent them from rushing their ranged allies. No aggro maintenance, just positioning and physical prevention.

Healing takes place out of combat, but some combatants may specialize in buffs and debuffs and maybe temporary shields to help their allies gain an edge over their enemies.

If it's a massive beast of a boss, once again make it fight the melee combatants, but make everyone responsible for their own safety. The beast may try to tailswipe at one melee, then clawswipe another. It could try scatter the melees and try to rush the rangers and the team would need to use traps or environment to avoid that, or just plain run away until it's surrounded by the melees again.

The lamest parts about the trinity are:

Fighting an opponent that isn't fighting you. That's lame and gay.

Using wellbeing as a resource to fill or deplete. That's lame and gay. Battle wounds should be something that affects your performance and something you try to avoid.

Being attacked by enemies but not being able to fight back against them is lame and gay. If your game's tank doubles as a DPS - then your trinity is broken anyway.

My favourite class system in an MMO was City of Heroes.

Your class doesn't fucking matter because everything is piss easy we just here to ball

>>737451201
The latter.
Admittedly it's fun to discuss game design to some extent but yeah, these endless theorycrafting threads are so pointless. I've seen them being posted almost daily for months, and I'm pretty sure it's mostly the same person. At some point if you aren't a dev or willing to become one, you've just got to accept the genre isn't for you and move on. Like seriously, what are we accomplishing here?

>>737455190
That's not even true. The DoT/HoT tick timer on WoW is every three seconds impacted by haste, it has never been once a second outside of stuff like floor AoEs. Stop making shit up.

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>>737446708
Pure int and faith build rpg with static amounts of hits allowed with only armor buffs giving extra hits and immunities

Everything revolves around damage and dodge abilities

>>737457898
Which nigger was talking about kiting? Maybe that's a method but surely not the only method. You can think of more methods right?

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>>737446708
>support/control
>damage
>survivability
each class can build 2 of the 3. buff enemies to require multiple tanks or supports to fight effectively.

>>737460096
Not a bad idea

>>737457442
With more party members, it's easier cuz you can deal dmg with two peeps, 2>1. If you have 1, you can survive but only if you're a solo beater like kirito from SAO. and yes Bethesda is true rpg. WoW is fake rpg

>>737463065
>and yes Bethesda is true rpg.
True RPGs have a level cap, requiring you to use your levels efficiently to build a useful characters. True RPGs do not let you be a herculean martial fighter, god tier sorcerer, and genius artificer all on the same character. I'd go as far to say that the only reason shitty single player RPGs like Bethesdaslop let you do this is because you specifically can't play it with your friends, so your guy has to be able to do everything.

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>>737446708
there we go, fun for everyone

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Add a meaningful scouting role, add fog of war by hiding enemy information from players, elemental weakness, HP, mana etc, have a line of sight mechanic like in a RTS, the scout class will have skill to reveal that informatin for his allies, a spy class will be the opposite, it will have abilities to hide or spoof that information, I imagine lots of emergent gameplay from these mechanics

>>737446708
The issues is with NPCs, and encounter design overall, more than PC class and group structure.
Almost every fight is designed as pass/fail for those specific roles.

The truth is that the trinity is designed to reward players for completing difficult tasks through a simple framework.

The hard truth is that most people fucking suck at video games and are barely capable of managing themselves in one simple role among a group of three roles.
Giving people MORE to think about in a power fantasy clicker? Hell nah, never going to work. You dipshits can barely handle "don't stand in the fire" as it is.
The first "M" in MMO doesn't work if you scare of the playerbase by exposing the fact that they suck or by consistently rewarding them for trivial encounters. People will not play.

We have to put "walk/do not walk" signs on traffic lights because a significant number of people can't figure out how to not walk into oncoming traffic. Think about that shit the next time you try to add more complexity to something that's already working.

>>737464586
so an entire role for being a glorified camera
why would someone bring this to smaller groups and why shouldn't it just be a function of another class?

>>737446708
DPS with DPS buffs, DPS with control spells, DPS with healing/lifesteal buffs

>>737446708
Just make everyone a DPS with some support skills. Combats should be mechanics-based and not aggro-based, as the latter is an archaic and extremely limiting formula that was only worth it in the older days of slower connections. Even global cooldowns and the likes need to go.

>>737446708
A character should be able to deal damage, take damage and heal damage. Specialization is for insects.

>>737465439
you are too dumb to even understand the gameplay possibilities afforded by having hidden information

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name the game

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>>737466628
actually a pretty fun game

>>737463480
True, it isn't like you're meant to be all these at once. You become an even strongerer god tier sorcerer at sorcery. You then depend on potions from an artificer to do heal but it isn't as good as the potion used by an artificer. something like that.
But like with 1p, the amount of grinding to solo monsters cuz you have a high level is big, a nolifer does it and become Jedi. You go and become a legend of the server.

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>>737446708
There is nothing wrong with this system and the fact that people think there is is why you get brainlet takes like >>737466252 that lead to trash like Guild Wars 2.
The problem is that people try to subvert this system or use it as a crutch, rarely do people try to expand upon the system by making each roll more complex than
>take focus
>do damage
>do healing
That's not a problem with the system, that's a problem with uncreative, lazy devs. There are countless things you can do to make each role more rich and complex, like changing the way tanks hold focus, giving them more complex mitigation systems, adding complexity to how DPS deal damage, treating healers like supports and giving them more options for things that support the team outside of healing like CC and temporary buffs.