>BOTW comes out>it's just a regular template open world game but with a Zelda theme>tired of the series' long losing streak Zelda fans praise it as the best thing ever to stage a big comeback>say it's the most revolutionary and innovative game ever, claim it makes other games obsolete etc >Nintendo sees the sales and the praise and decides it's going to make nothing but BOTW-like Zeldas from now on>realization starts to set in for fans that they traded their series forever for a temporary win Was it worth it? Zelda will never be Zelda again
BotW is the second best zelda game ever made
>>737541357Not a high bar to clear
>>737541286Because without restrictions it makes the rest of the gameplay irrelevant. I can just hovercycle everywhere and there's no challenge
>>737541286>it's just a regular template open world game but with a Zelda themeLol what. The game has a shit ton of innovation in terms of open world design
>*mogs BotW and TotK*>*filters Aonuma*
>>737541286>it's just a regular template open world game but with a Zelda theme>hasn't played the game
>>737541727It'd be kino if they got whatever people involved in the original and put out a new game in this format for a few bucks. Like just make it an online store thing.Imagine it'd be very cheap to create these days.
Your staff:Executive Producer - Hiroshi YamauchiProducer - Shigeru MiyamotoDirectors - Shigeru Miyamoto, Takashi TezukaDesigner - Takashi TezukaProgrammers - Toshihiko Nakago, Yasunari Soejima, Tatsuo Nishiyama, Kazuaki Morita (uncredited)Composer - Koji Kondo
>>737541682>>737541820Play more games
>>737543752any recs?
>>737543895Just Cause 2, Prototype, Red Faction: Guerrilla
>>737541286The formula is fine, just add actual dungeons, change the combat, add more bosses and enemies, remove weapons breaking and you're golden.
Limitation breeds creativityJust handing over a set of random tools to solve whatever problems isn't fun initially, it literally becomes the meme "it gets better 20 hours in", but why would you want to be miserable for 20 hours and then MAYBE have fun later?How about I have fun right now, with a different game? I'd rather play Zelda 1, Zelda 2, OOT, MM, A Link to the past etc. than BotW or TotK
>>737541286>Zelda will never be Zelda againAfter this new formula will give two/three flops in a row they will bring back the classic oot dungeons.Or even something new, who knows
>>737541286
>>737541286sorry to break it to you faggot but BOTW's gameplay has way more potential than restrictive garbage like twilight princess
>>737543752>>737543895>>737545158Samefaggot cuck. all your games are shit
>>737541286>the game was ironically successful
>>737541286>BotW is just a regular template open world gameKek imagine still being bootyblasted by Nintendo milestone genre-defining masterpiece 10 years later.
>be me, tendie since the SNES era>bought Playstations as well, but always prefer Nintendo >N64 is iconic, but doesn't sell as much as PS1>GC might be my favorite console of all time, is commercial failure compared to PS2>Wii came out, it's weak, gimmick console with dumb ass wagglan controls>everybody and their mum buys it>wtf.jpg>WiiU is somehow better, but is again failure>"boy I hope we'll go back to normal console">motherfucking chink tablet comes out, everybody and theit mum boys 2>as second motherfucking chink tablet comes out I lose hope we'll get a proper Nintendo home console since retards are buying dumbass gimmick shit like there's no tomorrowand the same thing is happening to Zelda, you will not get another comfy adventure, you won't even get another Wind Waker open world, you're stuck with "see that mountain? you can climb it" open world slop because retards and normoids bought it en masse
>>737546809It's okay anon you can stop pretending
>>737546809Yeah, imagine still shitting your diaper like 10 years later because someone said that BOTW was just mediocre ubislop.
>>737547142>mediocre ubislop.So how come Ubisoft started making their games more like BotW? Make it make sense.
>>737547769Because you showed them that retards still exist and ubislop still sells.
>>737541682This is the fucking problem.Since tendies never got tons of open world shit on their shitty hw they think that Ubisoft towers and other generic shit is highly inovative.
>>737547769Isn't exploration mode just an optional quest tracker with vague descriptions you bypass anyway with a UAV hawk? How the fuck is that anything like Botw?>urinalist headlineoh nvm click bait and some retard just seeing the headline and spreading more bullshit to argue points around
>>737541682I see this statement and no followup examples every thread
>>737541286>template open world gameNot really. BotW feels like a game that reinvented the bicycle and came to mostly the same conclusion, rather than something following the trends. It's naive in many ways, but also lacks some cancerous appendages that regular open world games have grown.
Yeah maybe don't take 6 years to release a glorified DLC with 80% reused assets including the world map, and people would complain less.
>>737541286Aonumale needs to retire already
>>737541286deathknell of a designer is when they start doing shit like this.why have 2d animation when we have 3d?why have melee combat while we have guns?why have scripts written by human when we have ai?
>>737548903KekStill malding
>>737548830>glorified DLCSays a lot when a mere "glorified DLC" from Nintendo BTFO the enitre industry and humiliated every developer on the planet.
>>737549362You weren't even alive when the best Zelda games came out
>>737549426Yes, I too remember when tendies were blown away by 2004 havoc physics.
>>737549431>You weren't even alive when the best Zelda games came outPost your Zelda collection. You don't own a single game. KYS fake fan.
>>737549474>tendies were blown awayIt wasn't "tendies". It was game developers. Stay mad and seething forever.
>>737549658Which games did that dev make
>>737549658What exactly is so impossible? Everything from TotK was doable in gmod, though level size was much more restricted at the time.
>>737541286People blame BOTWs open world design and completely forget that the reason it sucks is because there literally is nothing that interesting in it.It feels really nice to traverse the world, but the payoff just isnt there>Solve a puzzle, reward is another puzzle which rewards you with a choice of HP or Stamina>Find treasure? Its another sword which will break on you, not like you want to do any combat with it anyway since you should be just ignoring all the enemies and running past them to get to the next room.People got completely stuck on the "Open world design sucks" and they completely ignore that it is literally the evolution of the Zelda games, atleast it is if you look at it from the lense of what OOT is and what the devs probably would have LIKED to do with it.Im not going back to playing railroaded story games, the old games are still good and i play them but it just lacks the thing every kid ever wanted games to be growing upBig worlds you can do anything you fucking like inNot >Story game that plays like a movie or a game with a very shallow open world, the illusion of choice (Open World in Dragons Dogma 1)
>>737549727>Everything from TotK was doable in gmodWrong. Please educate yourself.
>>737546561Just Cause 2 is not shit
>>737549851This was written by someone who has never made a game in their life though, you should educate yourself
>>737541286BotW is literally the Zelda game we dreamed about as kids.
>>737549851Educate myself with babble that reads like a quirk chungus reddit meme?Rewinding time is also 2004 tech btw.
>>737549912Schizo on 4troon is still malding years later lma0o Keep screeching into the void
>>737549925>he dreamed about choreslop as a kidDamn, must've had a shitty childhood
>>737549950Wrong again.Sands of time rewinds the gameplay.TotK lets the player reverse a single object through time while the rest of the gameplay plays out in real time around them. All this while still maintaining the object's weight, acceleration, elemental and systemic chemistry properties with the world around themYou clearly know jack shit about games. Is 4chan really this cringe?
>>737549614I own all the ones worth owning except totk
>>737546363So... 2050 or later?
>>737548903Will BotW 3 have bear sex and customizable genitals?
>>737550316>still hasn't posted his collection Fake fan doesn't own a single Zelda game.
>>737541286>it's just a regular template open world game but with a Zelda themeIts not tho and people saying this have zero idea what good game design is and why openworld slop is hated
>Yahaha, you found me!Holy kino! This content is such peak that I stood up and yelled "McDonald's"
>>737541682Name one innovation. A single one.
>>737541682
>>737550601>Name one innovation. A single one.It's been 10 years and you still haven't learned anything about video games.Embarrassing.https://youtu.be/vmIgjAM0uh0?si=4r4SGHZjeenfMegf
>>737551018>can't name even one innovationowari da..
>tendies are literal marketing botsLooool
>>737551018That's literally the guy from the OP who overhyped BOTW on release and is now crying about Zelda never going back to the real formula lmao
>>737551083It's been 10 years schizo. I ain't helping you. I literally posted a video from a ficking game designer explaining it to you and you didn't even watch it.Kek shit your diaper for another 10 years.
>>737551560Post that game designer's games lmao
>>737551591Which game designer's opinion do you want to dismiss first?LMAO 10 years
>>737551828Slop recognize slop
>>737551969>I hate video games! REEEEEEEEE!Kek 10 years.
>>737552054>I love slop! AIEEEEEEE!Kek underage
>>737551828>AI summaryHere's an actual quote>"I don’t think we took specific inspiration from any particular game," he said, "but I’ve personally played a lot of open world games that are considered classics of the genre, and I’ve been influenced by all of them.https://www.ign.com/articles/elden-ring-director-hidetaka-miyazaki-influenced-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-elder-scrolls-witcher-3
>>737552145What has been like, waking up every day for the past decade, into a world where BotW is considered the greatest game ever made?It still will be tomorrow. Make sure and come back to 4chan and cry again for another 10 years. I'm gonna go play BotW Switch 2 Edition at glorious 4K HDR 60fps.
>>737552581I wouldn't know because I'm not delusional
>>737541286BOTW style would be fine if they had legacy dungeons like in the old games. The beasts were lame and shrines are too short.
>>737541286>it's just a regular template open world game but with a Zelda themeIt doesn't even have a Zelda theme, that's the worst part, outside of having gorons and zoras and a few references here and there it barely feels like Zelda, might as well have been a new IP loosely tied to the Zelda universe, which is exactly what it is.
>>737547043Skyrim has more varied locations than BotW where the enemy encampments are all literally copy-pasted and the shrines are almost all braindead with no interesting gameplay or even flavor. The only good part of BotW's open world was the puzzles you'd find in the overworld that lead to a blessing shrine.
>>737552893BotW has more in common with the original NES Zelda than OoT. Sounds like you never understood Zelda at all. Oh well.
>>737553186The NES original had actual dungeons and permanent upgrades
>>737553248>The NES original had actual dungeons and permanent upgradesAnd BotW doesn't?
Why was it suddenly decided that Zelda 1 is supposed to be the sole blueprint of the series anyway (even though BotW isn't a Zelda 1-like but that's the narrative that was constructed)? Why not LttP, which was the objective and actual refinement of that formula?
>>737553396BOTW has 1 (One) Dungeon.
>>737553753>Why not LttP, which was the objective and actual refinement of that formula?Because BotW is the objective and actual refinement of NES Zelda.
>Ubisoft, EA, Rockstar, Bethesda, etc. have been making open world games for a decade or even longer>genre is stagnating>Nintendo shows up>having no background in AAA 3D open world development, they decide on a whim "Here, let me try that">right off the bat, Nintendo make the best open world game ever made on their very first attempt using a fucking toaster.This will never not be hilarious.
>>737554002It really isn't. Trying to claim it's a Zelda 1-like is "don't believe your lying eyes" level shit.
>>737554338Remember folks, we're now in YEAR TEN
>>737554338The only thing BOTW didn't take from NES Zelda is dungeons.
>>737552581>switch 2>hdr
>>737554598Also BotW S2 Edition is 1440p lol
>>737541682Essentially, it is an Ubisoft game without the auto dots on the map. It even does the same few enemies except their health and damage is higher (instead of their health bar, their skin color is different).What it does differently is a lot of small unexpected interactions and things you can do in it which the average player will never discover.
>>737546261>Limitation breeds creativityBOTW shines when this happens. The island and the trials were the best part of BOTW because it was basically a puzzle that you had to solve with the tools they gave you.
>>737553753It's just the narrative that BotW fags have spun up and stuck with. In truth, Zelda 1 was more of a topdown metroid where you find new items that further expand the area that you can explore while finding secrets to increase your combat abilities. In actuality, BotW is an open world where you can go anywhere from the very start of the game with zero limitations on your mobility. Secrets have been replaced with shires. Health upgrades have been replaced with shires. Damage upgrades have been replaced with disposable weapons that break in 15 attacks. New tools are non-existance because you get all of the games important tools at the very beginning. Dungeons were replaced with divine beast that amount to a scavenger hunt in a mcdonals play place. My favorite addition is the enemies now do insane damage unless you farm materials to upgrade your armor sets. The closest thing BotW has with Zelda 1 is that both have a bare bones story where the ancient evil awakens and the hero defeats it. But that's what happens when you remove any form of player guidance or narrative structure. You can't know where the player will go first so every story event has to have the same shit just incase. "Sacred Stones?""Imprisoning War?"It's dogshit. BotW would have been fine as a one off that was refined with the next game, but instead we got a glorified Mod with dumbed down dev tools on the exact same map.
>>737554598>>737554682You're both wrong. Remarkable.
>>73755471410 (TEN) years folks.
>>737541286Yeah imagine having the restriction of not being able to use the clawshot. Or the Cane of Somaria. Or the Gust Bellows. Or any item found exclusively inside a dungeon with progression tied to using it right.
>>737541286Botw wasn't just a generic open world with a zelda theme, it actually fixed the main issues with open world games, which is how pointless is having the content being spread out, botw fixed this by making the traversal aspect meaningful and rewarding with the climbing and gliding mechanics, by putting ingredients out in the wild so you could make food that would give you buffs to resist a cold enviroment, give you a little more stamina to make a hard climb, and other effects. The reward for finishing shrines was materials to increase your base stats and make exploration easier, so one aspect of the game fed into the other, creating a feedback loop and made you feel like you were always progressing, and the physics and elemental interactions made the combat and puzzle solving more varied and fun.I do agree that sticking to this formula forever is a mistake, the next game should be like it and it should be in a new map, but that's it, they should come up with another formula after that, however, saying botw is just another generic open world is very silly, the game has more thought put into it than the average.
>>737546508It has the potential to be good. It sucks right now, but it could have been good.
>>737554793https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2025/07/zelda-botw-and-totk-are-transformative-on-switch-2-says-digital-foundry>Where dynamic resolution targeted 1600x900 on Switch 1 while docked, the Switch 2 release boosts that to a maximum of 2560x1440.
>>737541286>it's just a regular template open world game but with a Zelda themeName another open world game that's built around interacting physics systems, emergent gameplay, and exploration. Don't be a dumb nigger who screams that those things are gimmicks, just answer the question. That's why people who actually play video games enjoyed it.
>>737541286This already happened with Skyward Sword and BotW is just Skyward Sword 2.0.>Open world (Yes, the Sky is open world, deal with it)>Right-handed Link>Crafting>Durability>Parries>Stamina>Little collectables you can get whenever you want (Goddess Cubes, Gratitude crystals, Koroks)>Weird Miiverse/Wind Waker artstyle>New precursor race with magitech that is everywhere>Goddess Hylia instead of anything else>You can't fly at night/You can climb in the rain>Scripted story segment done in a rigid order>Self-contained freeform challenges like tadtones, stealth sections or shrinesThe only real difference is that BotW chose to dump most of its time into churning out shrines instead of having any dungeons at all.>>737547769Because these games have been in development hell for a long ass time and open world is a good way to delay the game being shitcanned if no one recognizes the stalling tactic. Ubisoft was literally just taking French government money in exchange for nothing for 10 years.>>737549836There is never anything interesting in open worlds. The point is to space out dense content, it's not supposed to consume actual development time.>atleast it is if you look at it from the lense of what OOT is and what the devs probably would have LIKED to do with it.Open world sucks because it phones in the illusion of choice by giving you a more open-ended agenda and not putting any work into actually selling it the way that the older games had to.>Im not going back to playing railroaded story gamesThey only got really railroaded when Aonuma took over.
>>737554859I know. It's insane it took them almost that long to make a sequel that almost entirely the same game but with Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts tacked on to it.
>every videogame needs to have a feature where pressing one of the face buttons on the gamepad teleports you to and instantly kills the final boss before rolling the credits and saying you the player are so brave and valid
>>737549727in regards to that image? iirc he was talking about how well everything worked. TotK's system had remarkably few bugs for how many moving parts it had. Like most players went the whole game without encountering any weird or surprising ultra hand jank.
>>737545158Anything fantasy themed?
>>737548204Fucking retards don't know what Ubi towers are
>>737554714>In truth, Zelda 1 was more of a topdown metroid where you find new items that further expand the area that you can explore while finding secrets to increase your combat abilities.That's Zelda 2, the one you think is the black sheep. Zelda 1 you can explore the entire world map with the exception of two screens without any items.
>>737553186Did you actually play NES Zelda or are you parroting what you heard? Go and actually beat it and then make a thread explaining why BotW is EXACTLY LIKE Zelda 1 on NES
>>737555324you can finish the game without ever getting the sword
>>737549727Cut down a tree in gmod, have it fall against something, then smoothly walk up the log. I'll wait for you to post a video since you're definitely familiar with gmod and not just a shitposting faggots bringing up games you aren't familiar with to cry about a popular game that you don't like because it isn't like the shitty games you played when you were 8.
>>737550601I liked how you can tackle the final boss immediately. Was fun to see the gradual optimization of figuring out how to do the gauntlet of bosses. I liked instead of ubitowers revealing every collectible location, it’s only a defog of the map. It’s not an innovation but what I really liked was how there were a lot of towns with a whole bunch of named NPCs with schedules. It really took my favorite thing of OoT and the other 3D Zeldas. I think what made BotW stand out is how its physics based interactions with the world/environment worked really well. Element interactions, rune interactions, stuff like that. The best thing to do with BotW is to go at it completely blind because there’s lots of hints of locations/places/guidance from all the characters.I liked it. I did replay OoT through TP 100% (I mention this a lot) and I really do miss the environment progression as you gain items. Wish that could still happen. I do have my criticisms sure, and of TotK. But damned if I didn’t enjoy it.
>>737554970It outputs at 4K. It's a 4K image.1440p upscaled to 4K is better than the 720p upscaled to 4K that PC fags have been boasting about for years.And PCfags don't even get the improved textures and draw distances.Yes, Switch 2 is the ultimate way to play this masterpiece. Feels good.
>>737541286And?Tendies are subbuman lobotomite cattle, so it's not like anyone will actually care
>>737555508Oh yeah. I’m sure another game did the paraglider before, but it is funny how suddenly so many games after BotW started copying it lol
>>737555309>Zelda 1 you can explore the entire world map with the exception of two screens without any items.Whereas in BotW and TotK you're restricted to the Great Plateau/Sky Island until you do their tutorial Shrines. You're not allowed to set off and explore until the game says so.
>>737554914>botw fixed this by making the traversal aspect meaningful and rewarding with the climbing and gliding mechanicsYou didn't play the game. When I played it all I did was climb, while resting on tiny inclines if needed, then glide to the next highest point I could reach, then climb again. That's all I did on repeat. Otherwise I rode a horse. Traversal was a meme from the start until the end.
>>737555528>It outputs at 4K. It's a 4K image. >720p upscaled to 4K that PC fags have been boasting about for years.It's absolutely insane how backwards you have this. The Switch 2 version renders a 1440p image and blows it up to 4k, whereas emulation let people render at a native 4k image. I know I'm probably wasting my time and you're just pretending to not understand things, but jesus fucking christ.
>>737555596Yep, just like all those classic Zeldas you love too. Guess they're not dead after all
>>737549925Except shrines instead of temples, which is the big problem in the end. If it had 9 temples most of the haters would be much more forgiving.
>>737541286Wind Waker was the perfect blend between old and new.
>>737555374 Bow Silver Arrows Bombs Raft StepladderRecorder Are all required to beat the game. The idea that you can just rush to Ganon and beat him like in BotW is retarded.
>>737555765>whereas emulation let people render at a native 4k imageYou cannot EMULATE fuck all natively. Do you even understand what the word EMULATION means?? There is no native PC version of BotW you retarded fucking moron.Even autistic emulator fags like Nerrel had to admit defeat. My God it feels so God being a Switch 2 owner.
>>737554242>right off the bat, Nintendo make the best open world game ever madeThey didn't. They just poorly ripped off westoid games, slapped a Zelda skin into it then told tendies what to think.>>737554486Yeah, year ten of Tendies filling up their diapers when someone says "BOTW bad'.>>737554914What a bunch of horseshit. The world in BOTW is empty and full of copy-pasted bullshit, all the "loot" is garbage tier, food buffs barely matter and shrines are horseshit.>>737555009Noita.>>737555374You can't finish the game without ACTUALLY beating it.
>>737555847There was nothing new in Wind Waker, it was just OoT but you had to do a song and dance every time you wanted Wood Epona to go in a different direction.
Nintendo gave up on Zelda because it would look ridiculously low effort compared to Dark Souls; and it is.
>>737555765Isn't 1440p already higher than the human eye?
>>737554914The pointless filler busywork doesn't suddenly become meaningful or fun just because it gives you an extrinsic motivation.The game is at its strongest at two points:When you are buck-naked on the plateau rubbing twigs together to set fires.When you are in Hyrule Castle and progressing through it with whatever approach you have chosen.Everything in-between those two points is irrelevant busywork, and while they're decent peaks to the experience, they're only a tiny fraction of it.
>>737555767When those games did it, it was consistent with the structure and mechanics of the rest of the game. When BotW and TotK do it (especially how much more funneled TotK's intro/tutorial is), it clashes with the rest of the games' design.
>>737554486>a remake of the original gameI cachinnate most vociferously.
>>737555902>You cannot EMULATE fuck all natively. Do you even understand what the word EMULATION means?? There is no native PC version of BotW you retarded fucking moron.That's not what "native" means in the context of resolution. You're laying on the pretend-retardation too hard.
>>737555009Elder Scrolls, Just Cause, Red Faction Guerilla, Grand Theft Auto, etc.
>>737555994Weirdest game for me. It was just a 200 hour 7/10 experience. No highs, but no lows. I actually didnt get sick of it till 20 min before the end in the castle. Thing is a 200 7/10 experience is not a 7/10 game.TotK though, peaks and valleys with a lot more and deeper valleys. Trash game.
>>737541286Such a dumb fucking question. Especially with Zelda where there's often completely different gameplay styles and atmospheric differences that can change the tone of the games entirely. They won't say this shit when they try selling you one of those plastic remakes though. These are the people ruining video games. Why play a game good at one thing when you can play one that is mediocre at 100 different things? Suck my balls.
>>737555948>Nintendo gave up... Because [game] would look ridiculously low effortNintendo directs are practically a meme in themselves and Nintendo wrings it's fanbase dry on a daily basisThere's no way Nintendo would drop an IP because it's "low effort"
Why is TOTK so hated?
I miss Pieces of Heart and the magic meter.
>>737555528>It outputs at 4K. It's a 4K image.Behold, Super Mario 64 outputting 4K
>>737555681Majority of locations are accessible by gentle slopes and pathways. When I did my 100% playthrough when I was doing each ubitower, I focused on “what’s the intended path” instead of doing a straight line to it. Quite a few of them have these pathways of dealing with enemies and constant traps, like the Lanaryu one, the Gerudo one, the one with gloom all over. It was really fun to do that instead of just paraglide over
>>737556851I got bored of fighting the same enemies over and over and over again to no gain so I just skipped them whenever I could
>>737553152the boss baby is literally not the worstboss baby is literally charmslop at its peak and i dont know how mad you can get legit get as all it does is say tongue in cheek the whole time
>>737549702MLB 2017
Why are tendies so delusional? I got a switch for my kids and the mario games are 8/10 at best. Mario kart is pure shit.
>>737541357*Second-worst, first being TotK
Totk used the exact same mapI’ve never seen devs that lazy
>>737541286If there are no restrictions then the game is fucking boring as shit.BotW and TotK best parts were the shrine puzzles that were restricted in some way.
>>737541286It's almost like a carefully curated experience is better than a wide-open nothing. It's like asking why someone wants to ride a rollercoaster instead of go walk in an empty field.
>>737557187They only play Nintendo games and therefore have very low standards
>>737556676This PCfag is seething so hard that my $400 Switch 2 runs BotW better than an $8000 PC.Why does this get me hard?
>>737545158I have played JC2 and Prototype, both great games. BotW is still a better open world game
>>737549986>he thinks his video games are anything but chores disguised as adult gamesKek.
okay so he actually is just pretending to be retarded, got it
>>737555915Noita came out after it, and it's 2D. But yes, the spell simulations and physics rules are amazing.>>737556262Of those only JC and Red Faction really lean into physics, and even then it's mostly just destruction physics plus the grapple hook in JC. They don't have nearly as many interactions and mechanics as BotW, nor do they use them for puzzle solving and environmental traversal. Do you actually play video games or are you just here to shitpost like a monkey? TES and GTA don't even pretend to be about physics. GTA having ragdolls does not mean there's systems driven emergent gameplay.
>>737557471>a carefully curated experiencelmao that's BotW. A game so meticulously curated that the placement of every single tree and rock was considered.
snoyjeet subhumans will never stop seething and dilating over botw aren't they?
>>737558034But you will have the same view as the top in the bottom scenario if you're two seconds earlier on the path though
>>737557471>carefully curated experienceTranslation: I'm a retard that likes shitty railroaded games.
>>737558146>handmade games are shitty railroaded games.Translation: I'm a retard that likes sloppy sloppa
>>737555948>Majora's Mask managed a complete package in one year of development>Wind Waker actively hid its artstyle from higher-ups and had to cut content to make deadlines>Twilight Princess was so directionless that it was focus-tested with E3 trailers and was delayed for a year>Skyward Sword fails basic principles of game design and was delayed by 2 years despite relying heavily on asset reuse.>BotW was ostensibly delayed for a year twice, but it's really obvious that the game itself was a placeholder put together from content that was nowhere near finished so that they would be able to say that they had a Wii U Zelda and a Switch launch Zelda.>TotK in spite of relying on asset reuse was in development for 6 years and was also delayed for a year.Nintendo gave up on Zelda because they accidentally blundered their ability to make them due to favoring the wrong man in office politics. Just within the timespan of confirmed delays alone they could have released 4-5 Majora's Masks.>>737558146>Can't infiltrate Gerudo village other than by crossdressing, any stealth is impossible because it will just boot you out when you cross a threshold >Can't get into any Divine Beasts unless you do the story mission because magic barrierThe railroading in the open world games is just more egregious when it's free form physics puzzles the rest of the time.
>>737558234>>handmadeExplain what about BotW isn't hamdmade. No, redefining what handmade means is not an answer. If you can't answer without moving the goalposts or pulling things out of your ass, you need to immediately kill yourself.
>>737558318You haven't played BotW, ACfag.
>>737558136>But you will have the same view as the top in the bottom scenario if you're two seconds earlier on the path thoughLow IQ. Fuck me lmao
>>737542358>Let's gets these 40+ year industry vets who probably have extremely high salaries, have them throw something together, and then sell their work for pennies. We live in a capitalist society that rewards merit, commie.
>>737557370Eventide Island in BotW was great because it actually limited you (it should've also taken your Champion powers away but hey hindsight is 20/20). The attempts to replicate its magic just don't hit the same mark though.>One-Hit Obliterator was cool, but it would've been better in a new area instead of the familiar Plateau (though I guess having to do the four new Shrines kind of substitutes for new areas)>the Champion's Ballad boss rematches are dogshit due to how wildly lopsided your equipment loadouts are (Fireblight and Windblight are jokes since they're squishy and you have good shit, Thunderblight is okay since your equipment is just "fine" and he actually puts up a challenge, and Waterblight absolutely shafts you with the worst equipment by far and makes you rely on cheesing with Urbosa's Fury or three-level Strength meals if you don't want to take a fuckload of extra time slogging it out with bombs)>the TotK Eventide-style Shrines are too confined and make it easy for you to get better equipment (though at least being Shrines also means they disable Sage powers, smartly)
>>737558318>trying to compare Majora's Mask to Tears Of The Kingdom Abosulte moron lmao. I often chuckle to myself imagine how many decades it would take other developers to make something like TotK, and it would still be a broken mess at launch.
BotW/TotKfags are the Rick and Morty fags of Nintendo. They even do the "to be fair you have to have a high IQ" shit but completely unironically.
>>737557998>They don't have nearly as many interactions and mechanics as BotWLol. They all have way more mechanics than BotW. Just take Elder Scrolls for example. It has spell crafting, a bunch of status effects you can apply on enemies in various ways, you can turn invisible, levitate, charm enemies, summon monsters and equipment, change your stats, etc. In Oblivion NPCs have actual schedules, towns are way larger and more numerous than in BotW, you can kill most NPCs and do what you want. Almost all items in the game have physics, you can even use telekininesis to grand and move them around. You have tons of dungeons that each btfo the main toy dungeons in BotW. You didn't play shit and it shows. You're coping hard with the baby's first gmod physics in BotW where you punch cubes to make them fly. Just Cause has way better gliding, better combat, vehicular you can climb and shoot from, explosive canisters you can shoot and ride like the gay ass cubes from BotW, etc. Red Faction Guerilla has destructible buildings, completely absent from BotW. Grand Theft Auto has actual physics that apply to the vehicules you're riding, unlike the static ass horse from BotW.You don't play games, you just suck off Nintendo shit
>>737558748You're trying way too hard and blowing your cover. Try being more subtle
>>737541286Innovation is overrated and a little pretentious at this point.
>>737555508Funny how someone that likes BotW, but knows the flaws compared to prior Zelda’s doesn’t get any replies because it’s not an extreme for or against.
>>737558637Hahahaha. Good one anon.
>>737558904>They all have way more mechanics than BotW. Just take Elder Scrolls for example. It has spell crafting, a bunch of status effects you can apply on enemies in various ways,>TES>physics systems>when LGS made it clear that they made immsim games specifically to be the opposite of TES gamesIf you wanted to be taken seriously, you should have said Ultima Underworld. Only a severely retarded person (you) or a troll would pretend TES games are built on physics systems. Tweaking RPG stats are not physics systems. If a fireball spell pinyin changes its damage and AoE and has no new mechanical properties, the game is a boring abstraction of pen and paper mechanics.
>>737559007Okay gun and ball gamer
>>737541286They're obviously going to change direction with the series (again). They've given both BotW and TotK facelifts and made the new version the best way to experience the games, and they will continue to sell them for a premium. And so because of that, they'll reinvent the series yet again (and the new concepts will be copied ad nauseum by the rest of the gaming industry for years to come just as in the case of BotW). Maybe it won't even take place in Hyrule?
>>737559614>They're obviously going to change direction with the series (again).After BotW sold 35 million and TotK sold 25 million. Sure thing.
>>737559497>those mechanics don't count because... they just don't, okay?The basic gmod physics and toy mechanics aren't impressive and what's funny is they barely even matter. They don't actually affect your gameplay to the same degree all the mechanics I listed actually do. You just got impressed by grass catching on fire a couple of times and then probably never used it again in actual gameplay. You googled and named Ultima Underworld but you know if I listed that you'd say "Um, you can't surf a shield so actually it has less mechanics". Play more games, please
>>737541286>why do you want to go back to a type of game where you're more limited or more restricted in the types of things or ways you can playBecause it allows developers to focus on it's gameplay better. What easier argument can be used than MGSV? Half the time it feels like you're cheesing the game in the open world and the few missions that are considered good were the ones you where you can't approach or make use of anything and everything, so you could only really play it like an older MGS title. You still had options of routes or using guns, boxes, ect but you weren't able to do complete bullshit either.
>>737559881>which games have physics?>these>those aren't physics>well physics are dumbYou're a retard who doesn't like good gameplay mechanics. I get it.>You googled and named Ultima Underworld No, that's you arguing about games you don't play.
>>737559809they changed direction for Mario Kart after MK8DX sold 70 million copies and completely opted out of iterating on Super Mario Odyssey's success after it sold 30 million copies
>>737560168The difference is Mario and Mario Kart have never had a problem selling. Zelda has, until BotW/TotK.
>>737560168You are right they will definitely evolve it, but they arent going back. Also the lack of 3D Mario is do bizare to me. I'd love for someone in the know to explian why? My only hypothesis is the 2d Mario's sell 75% as good but take 1/10th the effort.
>>737560664You get one Mario / Zelda per generation. Sometimes 2 if you're lucky.Nintendo have done this consistently for 40 years why don't people understand patterns like this?
>>737560008Nope, I named open world games with emergent gameplay and physic systems that matter to the gameplay. Then you went on about mechanics so I explained how they completely overtake BotW in mechanics. Just because I think the physics in BotW are a meme doesn't mean I think physics don't matter in other better games. You got impressed by heat/cold, gmod physics and grass catching on fire, but please try playing games where the mechanics are actually relevant to the gameplay all the time and don't exist just to show off that your game can pull off 2004 era tech
>>737560664I truly think the movies' obscene undeserved successes have severely hampered any motivation to make new mainline Mario games ever again.>>737560904>patternfagging
>>737560904We are talking 2d vs 3d and you just said>You get one Mario per generation.which doesnt explian the 2d vs 3d, and I dont think is even true.Didn't the nes and switch get 3. There are 24 mainline games.
>>737547043Nintendo's not making another hone console and it's not even because muh gimmicks is stopping them. They lost and bowed out of the console market, plain and simple. Wii U was their Dreamcast moment. The company was already restructured around being a handheld only dev before Iwata died.
>>737560930>and physic systemsNo, you didn't. Saying it over and over won't magically make it true, nor will your pathetic attempt at the "they don't matter to gameplay" qualifier. You also very clearly don't actually know anything about gmod. Stop parroting games you don't play for shitposting.
>>737554242>right off the bat, Nintendo make the best open world game ever made on their very first attempt using a fucking toaster.You're acting like this is some absurdly weird thing, but Nintendo had pretty much always been ahead of everyone for years and Zelda was consistently THE series that taught everyone else how to create a proper real time adventure game, which nobody else had ever managed to match.You'd basically expect Nintendo to nail full open world gameplay before everyone else (GTA always has such fucked up gameplay that this should have been trivial), but they just faltered on the GC/Switch and never recovered the prestige they originally attained for years.
>>737541357BotW is the second worst "Zelda" game ever made. TotK is the worst.>>737541727Based. Miyamoto was crazy for handing over the series to someone who doesn't even like the classic formula and never even beat the first one because it's "too hard". A retarded crossdressing fetishist who's biggest achievement at the time was copy pasting A Link to the Past and calling it his won, sees Toon Link as his own OC and thinks making the protagonist into a feminine genderless blob is more important than making an actual good game. Even after hiding Wind Waker's art direction from Miyamoto until the last second, because he knew he would hate it, Shiggy still let him have it. lmao!Every series Miyamoto grew tired of, he should've just let Tezuka take care of instead of killing and burying them or handing them out like candy to retarded children.
>>737559007This but unironically, games don't need to be innovative to be good, and innovation is used as a synonym of "change" when change isn't inherently good, innovation is good when it's an improvement over what came before, but innovation is often change for the sake of change, and many franchises, especially nintendo ones, have suffered for this, also open worlds and crafting aren't innovation.TLDR; it's more important for games to be good than "different".
>>737558323The supermajority of enemies you fight are bipedal monsters that swing weapons at youWeapons have three total movesets of like five attacks each, every other property they have is algorithmically generated "here is a fire version, here is a fire version with more damage" shit
>>737562095All the games I listed have physics systems. Physics doesn't just mean punching a cube repeatedly until if flies off the map. Destructible buildings, vehicle handling and collisions, dynamic physics based animations, are all physics and they all interact with the gameplay in those games constantly. Please name the physics systems in BotW, I'm starting to think you're such a dumbass you're actually conflating shit like heat/cold meters as physics
>>737563215BotW haters are low IQ morons. Everytime.Weapons have functionality beyond combat. I always keep a flame blade handy for quickly lighting camp fires and staying warm in the cold.You think fighting a Lava Talus with a Ice Blade is the same as fighting one with a tree branch. Stay retarded.
>>737554242
>>737563486>weapons have functionality beyond combatThat functionality was introduced to you five minutes out of the rejuvenation pool when you first picked up a torch and realized it would help you stay warm in the cold area. And no weapon ever goes beyond that. A fire weapon out of combat is used for keeping warm and lighting fires for the entire game.>You think fighting a Lava Talus with an Ice Blade is the same as fighting one with a tree branch.If I'm getting the same moves from the same button presses and the biggest difference is that one is doing less damage, then it's not different enough for me to give a shit. Sorry.
>>737563486>Weapons have functionality beyond combat. I always keep a flame blade handy for quickly lighting camp fires and staying warm in the cold.And you just about named the only use they have outside of combat, which is irrelevant because you can just eat food to do that
>>737541286whatever, all Zelda games are KINO and PEAK!
>>737563745>which is irrelevant because you can just eat food to do that>>737563743You're a fucking retard. I don't care if you spend YET ANOTHER decade crying about this masterpiece (I hope you do). Sorry.But then you need food (certain food) do that.Isn't freedom wonderful? Its so sad that every other game is just simplistic baby-tier dogshit compared to BotW/TotK.
>>737541286BotW was great.TotK was the worst possible thing they could have done for a sequel.
>>737541286Why would anyone want to go back to when Zelda was fun? Who cares about fun!
>>737548349What a bunch of sensitive cry babies in this pic rel
>>737564497>Isn't freedom wonderful?When developers know what freedom actually looks like within their game, yes. Breath of the Wild was them giving up on that prospect and falling back on the simplistic general public perception of what "freedom" means in video games.Sorry an ice weapon is the exact same as a fire, electric, or non-elemental weapon except for the "ice" flag. That isn't handcrafted nor will it ever be.
>>737549658>it was developersLiterally who? his smug face here cracks me up.He looks so fucking stupid.
>>737564497Holy dunning kruger
>>737555508>I liked how you can tackle the final boss immediately. Was fun to see the gradual optimization of figuring out how to do the gauntlet of bosses.Oh wow chrono trigger did this better and made it meaningful. >I liked instead of ubitowers revealing every collectible location, it’s only a defog of the map. They're still ubitowers, this changes nothing.>It’s not an innovation but what I really liked was how there were a lot of towns with a whole bunch of named NPCs with schedules. It really took my favorite thing of OoT and the other 3D Zeldas. So nothing?>I think what made BotW stand out is how its physics based interactions with the world/environment worked really well. Element interactions, rune interactions, stuff like that.An innovation needs to be new, this ain't it chief. >The best thing to do with BotW is to go at it completely blind because there’s lots of hints of locations/places/guidance from all the characters."The best way to tackle a game about freedom is to play it the way I think it should be played so that you won't figure out it's shallow and shit." Thanks dumbass.>I liked it. I did replay OoT through TP 100% (I mention this a lot) and I really do miss the environment progression as you gain items. Wish that could still happen. It can't happen in a slop open world devoid of context and meaning, because that requires the developer to understand what makes their previous games fun while also not shitting up their concept with open world slop.You are a moron.>I do have my criticisms sure, and of TotK. But damned if I didn’t enjoy it.
>>737563215What kind of non-sequitur is that? Nothing you said precludes a game being handmade. Learn what words mean.
>>737563470>vehicle handling is physicsGod damn, you are stupid. Stop talking about game mechanics and srguing about games you don't play.
>>737565541Okay, you're a retard. Don't know why I even bothered talking to you
>>737565463>enemies and weapons being made generic enough that an algorithm could place them proves nothing about it being handmadeSure thing buddy.
>>737565692>not-handmade means things I don't likeThat retardation aside, a single bobo in BotW has more behaviors and reactions than the entirety of the enemy roster in your favorite Zelda gane.
>>737541286I thought they said they were ditching the gameplay style for the next main game.
>>737565889>not-handmade means genericYes.>a single boboDoes nothing of actual relevance other than walking up to me and sloooowly telegraphing a melee swing. I'm sorry, that enemy's morning routine doesn't matter to my gameplay at all, because he poses no threat to me and never has, so there's no good reason to worry about doing anything but run up to him and smack him to death.
>>737565889If I wanted to watch behaviour and reactions I'd play Tomodachi. I don't care if the chungus pigs söyface over wild boars and goes and takes a piss behind a tree every day on a schedule. Enemy character variety is shit, enemy type variety is shit, and fighting them is not fun.
>>737564701>Sorry an ice weapon is the exact same as a fire, electric, or non-elemental weaponThe absolute of this seething schizo IN YEAR TEN.Yeah, go fight a Ice Talus with an Ice Weapon and pretend it's the same as fighting with a Fire Weapon. How mentally ill can one person be.LMFAOO who are you trying to convince IN YEAR TEN?
>>737566130>YesNo, it means made procgen or with some kind of automating algorithm. I know you're an angry, stupid little monkey but you don't get to redefine words to pretend you made an argument.>>737566563>I don't want more enemy behaviorsThat's fine. There are plenty of games with shit AI and mechanics for people like you.
>>737566686If I get to do the same moves at the same enemy and the only difference is how much damage I get then that isn't enough. Simple as.
>hey guys did you hear me say "year ten" yet???BotW fans are proud of this because they just learned how to count to 10
>>737566902You're retarded. It's been 10 years. I can't believe you wasted an entire decade of your life being jealous of a video game.
>>737566823>No, it means made procgen or with some kind of automating algorithmSo like every Bokoblin camp in BOTW could've easily been? Yeah that's what I was saying.>it's shit ai for the enemies to not have a daily routine where they wander around campLmao
>>737541286Where you around when Skyward Sword launched?Twilight Princess was already a desperate way of Nintendo trying to copy (and failing) the magic of OoT. The famous 8 from Gamespot was accurate, it was the first time someone told the king was naked.Skyward Sword launched and there were some 10s but people knew it wasn't true. The constant awful fight against the imprisoned, the weird "cute" artstyle, the stealth sections.Zelda traditional template run its course, an Nintendo had no idea how to fix it.Metroid is going though the same issue right now, with other devs making even better games using that template ( Silksong being the current gold standard).Breath of the Wild was a genius move. They moved away from that samey structured path, while keeping the exploration and puzzles. It wasn't perfect, the rewards of some puzzles were underwhelming, lack of enemy variety but the exploration aspect was unparalleled.TOTK fixed some QOL issues of the first one, but it lacked the finesse,while having the same problems of the first.I have no idea how they are going to tackle the OoT remake, but hopefully a smart combination of both would simply perfect.
>>737541286>say it's the most revolutionary and innovative game ever, claim it makes other games obsolete etcMy favorite part was how all games were going to copy the "botw formula" from now on. And how whenever someone mentioned it, it was always, "It's still early, it's 201X, games take years to make, in a few more years we'll see the clones." 2026 and... next year for sure!
>>737550601weapon degradation!
>>737567115>So like every Bokoblin camp in BOTW could've easily been?>could've easily been>>737558323>pulling things out of your ass,It's handmade. You being an assmad literal (not metaphorical) retard doesn't change that objective, immutable fact. You're done arguing now.
>>737541286>>it's just a regular template open world game but with a Zelda themeI'm tired of faggots spouting that disingenuous non sense
>>737567429This coming from faggots who call SS an "OoT like" to dishonestly paint OoT as the source of SS's issues?
>>737550601GliderYou know the thing every open world afterwards copiedNow kill yourself
>>737567310The reason not being handmade would be bad is because it would require all the parts to be generic to fit together algorithmically. All the parts are generic anyway.
>>737567804Just Cause did it first, and better
It's now 2026.
>>737568051Asscreed and the Arkham games also had gliding before BotW. what's funny is that BotWfags could actually have a halfway logical counter to this, but the fact that they don't use it is quite damning.
>>737567143The issues with TP and SS weren't an OoT formula problem, they were an Aonuma problem.
>>737541286Yes it will. They heard the feedback that the dungeons were still not good enough. You have to remember that even OOT had something of an open world. Even Zelda 1 arguably did. That will always be in the series DNA, but it won't be BotW clones until the end of time.Doesn't mean the next game will be a return to Majora's Mask or something. I just think they'll eventually find a decent middle ground of explorable world + satisfying dungeons.
>Zelda will never be Zelda againDidn't they make a game where you play as Zelda and it was like traditional Zelda game?
>>737569204The video lumps it with BOTW and TOTK for lacking focus
>>737541286It would’ve been his fine if ToTK was a real game and actually addressed BoTW’s shortcomings like it was supposed to
>>737541286>it's just a regular template open world gamePlease share with the class a few open world games that are even half as polished and fun as BOTW.
>>737569204It was a lot more traditional than Breath of the Wild, but it still had a huge inventory of physics options and "puzzles" about putting them down.
>>737569135Exactly, he only addressed the most surface-level complaints people had with WW to quell criticism in the short term while doubling and tripling down the game design tenets without being aware of how doing so would just burn people in the long term.Oh hey, I guess history repeats itself.
>>737543895Genshin :^)
>>737550381Seriously, I've probably only got a few of these left in me.
>>737541286Video games need limitations to provide you a fun challenge. I don't want to spend my time imitating mundane things from real life.
getting all the tools to do every puzzle in the game in the first like two hours just makes progression too boring to want to meander around an open world for 100 hours, especially when there is no meaningful content to actually utilize those mechanics in id be happy with the open world formula if we had actual progression in terms of item unlocks and dungeons
>>737548204That argument doesn't work when botw sold like 4x more than the next best selling Zelda game. The majority of nu-Zelda "fans" are new players. Normalfags will eat up any open world shit because their tastes aren't refined and they just care about superficial shit.
>>737549426>>737549658Game developers being impressed by the technology doesn't make it fun. It's just pretentious.
>>737570224This is a big reason why they need to scale back open world design and intricate physics interactions - it's fucking up their devtimes and staff allocation.>TotK was a world/asset flip that took 6 years and nearly double the devteam of BotW>MKW took 8 years and wasn't nearly as large of an open world nor featuring elaborate physics interactions, and took about as many devs as BotW>DKB took about 6-8 years (we don't have an exact year but them saying it started "after Odyssey" implies they didn't wait too much longer) and nearly as large of a devteam as BotW>Tomodachi Life Living the Dream doesn't even have this kind of shit but it still somehow took 9 goddamn years
>>737541286I didnt like the "dungeons" and how the Master Sword was setup. Havent played Tears yet cause it doesnt look interesting at all. I really wish Nintendo would stick to the "Todays episode in Hyrule Fantasy" format. Also, Link falling through the sky after Zelda and catching her made me ball my eyes out.
>>737570502Had the same experience with Botw as Elden Ring. All these "new" games by legacy developers feel just like "best of" compilations of past enteries. Atleast companies are now some what honest about their future plans with remakes and remasters. You can finally accept that these once massive video game companies have shown they are not making new games.
>>737549836>Solve a puzzle, reward is another puzzle which rewards you with a choice of HP or StaminaThat is line with Zelda. The problem is all the actual good puzzles are confined to shrines, which all look the same and have the same music, and are 1-3 puzzles instead of combining them into varied dungeons and mini-dungeons with their own aesthetics and themes. And the majority of puzzles outside of shrines are low quality korok puzzles where you put a rock in a hole, or jump into a circle of plants in the water, or pop a hidden balloon. And "puzzles" where you just spend 1-2 minutes putting together a vehicle to get from one point to another. Even with the shrines in tears that is half of all puzzles, just building the correct, intended contraption to get through an obstacle.
>>737569135This, there was never anything wrong with the formula and it was never one of the problems with any post-Miyamoto game. Only Aonuma ball washers keep seething about how muh OoT formula bad and old and we had to move on, like it's Call of Duty, FIFA or some shit.>>737569204>>737569742Every game since Aonuma (and now Fujibayashi) took over has either been fine but with several drawbacks that take away from it, or just complete dogshit. Echoes is so botwified and bloated that it enters dogshit territory.
>>737570684>The majority of nu-Zelda "fans" are new playersIt's funny how they post series sales figures constantly while not realizing how that exposes the truth of the matter. The Zelda 1 purist larpers are especially baffling, becuase even if we assume a 100% rate of series retention/return from people who bought Zelda 1 40 years ago, the odds of purists being legitimate and not larpers is very low. Then it gets MUCH lower when you factor in the reality that the retention/return rate from Zelda 1 isn't going to be anywhere close to 100%
I'm cool with the direction of BotW but I need something a little more fresh and a little more competent than TotK.
>>737571878The OoT formula was always shit, and no, it's not the LttP formula.
>>737559809This isn't Sony, anon. They're not endlessly chasing trends pushing out live service trash (who are just now wizened enough to make their own Switch).Nintendo's whole philosophy is to not compete in the same arena as everyone else.They made a weird open-world Mario Kart instead of just the normal schtick like 8. They opted for an older IP for the 3d mario team instead of Odyssey 2. They aren't going to make games that are mere copies of games they are selling for a premium in stores today.
Durability is a restriction
>>737541286i'll always hate aonuma's line of logic there because its inherently anti-zelda>hand crafted dungeons that ask you to use your tools in a given way?>LOL!!!>who needs those! they're too restrictive, here's a 500 shrines that pretend to be difficult when they give the answer to you.>actual defined tools and weapons?>LOLZERS!!!>who needs those! just pick up the unique weapons that break in two hits (dont need them for anything, btw.)>any sense of progression?>LOLLMAOLOOOOOL!!!!!!!>WHO NEEDS THAT? WE'LL JUST GIVE YOU ALL THE UNLOCKS IN THE FIRST FIVE MINUTES AND LET YOU PLAY AROUND IN A SANDBOX!!!!!!!!!!!if i want a sandbox, i'll just play gmod.if i want a structured experience, i'll play zelda.i do not want gmod in my zelda.and now im going to get samefagged because the faggot that posts shallow comparisons to original concept art and article titles from retarded journalists is in this thread.
>>737573379Tell me you're a botwbaby newfag without telling me.
>>737574052Started the series with LoZ. You can proceed to get mad now that LARPing as an oldfag won't work.
>>737541286>complains traditional Zelda design is limited>BotW and TotK are hamstrung by being limited by the tutorial toolset because open-world design doesn't want to dictate where you can goA Link Between Worlds' rental system was a better compromise than stunting your design potential for the length of the whole game.
