What do you think the genre needs to realize it's true potential? It's maybe the 3rd best genre and will be played as much when people are all playing games together. Do we need an "everybody plays together" platform? Do we need a group leader that understands objective design and quality? How do we contact people who have the potential to make and advertise games? What do you want out of the genre?
>>737658627RTS needGameplay and rules design being top notchGood graphics and FXCool settingsWorking MPEnjoyable campaignAnd controls that don't suck assThey're the best genre of videogames though. Marries action with indepth strategy. Of course it filters many.
Blizzard should hire Chris Taylor for a 3rd RTS series. Give him like 10% of sales.
Just have a fun campaign and I will play it.
>>737659403What experimental is that for orange? It looks like an Ythotha.
I just think it's neat.
>>737659554it is
no they will never get buffed
>>737659431I really want the Kharak extraction RTS to be real someday
>>737658627RTS has been perfected by Zero-K.>https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/Cold_Takes/3_-_Fight_your_opponent,_not_the_UIFight your opponent, not the UI. Busywork isn't RTS. The result of this isn't that it'll lower the apm usage of people playing, but to allow them to create the most expeessive maneuvers possible with the same amount of actions, creating more interesting battles where strategy and tactics come into play.>https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/Cold_Takes/2_-_Quant%27s_RuleBuff strengths, nerf weaknesses. There are two extremes of balance that are uninteresting. One where everything is balanced, at the expense of any interesting unit variety. The other with interesting unit variety, but most can not be used in a viable strategy. By buffing strengths and nerfing weaknesses, there is a wide variety of units, every single one of them can be used in a viable strategy and every single one of them are distinctly unique.>https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/Cold_Takes/6_-_Physics_vs._FormulasUnit counters are based on emergent phenomena of the projectile physics simulation. A stinger counters recluses on flat land, but recluses can take cover behind a hill and hit the stinger with its curving rockets. Knights beats minotaurs in a brawl, but minotaurs can outrange and out speed them. The knights could be cloaked with a cloaking field so they can close in the distance by surprise. Skirmishers outrange assaults and counter them by kiting, but that can come at the cost of losing territory by needing to retreat.>https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/Cold_TakesJust read everything linked there. It's the greatest RTS ever made.>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHCXLuTix58This is what RTS looks like.
>>737658627>What do you think the genre needs to realize it's true potential?It needs me. But I can't be bothered to learn how to program in the little time I have in my day after by bullshit job.Sucks to suck.
>>737658627It's gonna be really hard to evolve from STARCRAFT 2. It's still the high watermark of technical evolution and design. Evolution from C&C, WC3, and BW all felt natural because of the evolution of computing. Meanwhile the only thing to happen in the last ten years is the ray tracing scam, upscaling scam, frame generation scam, and LLM bullshit. None of that helps with RTS. The only continuation is side grade aesthetics and design remixes by indie devs. RTS is basically doomed without a huge evolution from a giant dev.
>>737659702That Monkeylord's gotta circle strafe. Easy win, right?
>>737661202If is so great why it's dead?
>>737661091>Extraction RTSThe dumbest shit I ever heard in my life
>>737661439This is an RTS thread, not a MOBA thread. Get out.
>>737658627Better hotkeys so the games can be more about strategy and less about 400apm autism
Does anybody have some must watch Gyle videos?These are pretty good:https://youtu.be/yPYhWoPjXEw.https://youtu.be/CbnKOOZ2ZRA.
>>737658627The reason the genre died isn't because people lost interest, it's because the genre doesn't appeal to a wide range of people, so big decs stopped making them, just make a game for people who like RTS, don't try to appeal to casuals, don't try to market it as an esport, just make a decent game and people will play it
>>737661627>200 players online a few hours agoIt's not dead. It has a stable playerbase of true RTS enjoyers. How many RTS games have 16v16 battles? Not many. Zero-K has 16v16 battles very frequently.
>>737661635>This guy hasn't played DoKLmaoing at ur life nerd
>>737661627Cause it sucks and lost to BAR and SupCom
>>737662043I don't play with the awful victory condition on.
Zero-K's lances rapes BAR's starlight. Starlight is just a retarded pew pew laser turret that fires every 4.7 seconds that you amove. So pathetic and boring. Meanwhile Zero-K's lance fires the anal raper laser every 23 seconds, perfect for surgical alpha strikes of instant death.
when will the handcannoneer be buffed? only then, will RTS realize its true potential.overally, they need more coop settings or to focus more on teamgames, it also need a good mapmaker to make it last forever (as well as a good campaign obviously)
>>737661518Sure, but he didn't. The Ythotha died anyway because air was eating rocks and the flak couldn't get rid of the gunships in time. It did take down the monkeylord with it though
>>737661439>It's still the high watermark of technical evolution and design.SC2 is a small maps RTS. Surely you think there's a lot of innovation to be made. SC2 is the high watermark for polish and responsiveness, but SupCom FAF still surpasses it in scale, economy, and systemic depth.
>>737661869People don't know what they want. It's objectively like the 3rd best genre. The adrenergics are some of, if not, the best in gaming. You just don't get the same intense gameplay and tunneling in most other genres.
We need more napoleonic era RTS.
>>737658627Ditch the shit model it's been working off of for the last three decades, and go back to Herzog Zwei.
>>737658627What RTS needs is to forget e-sports ever existed, and give players a fucking juicy-good campaign, skirmish + multiplayer mode on dedicated servers, and dont fuck up technical side of things like keymaps and unit pathfinding. Also, ditch the retarded cartoony/toybox designs, and stick to visual clarity.
SC:BW is the most dogshit strategy game. I have no idea how it caught on as a gooksport instead of something like AoE2. It's all about clicking fast, not having any sort of strategy.
>>737661091So would it have metaprogression or not?
>>737665897BW was more of a strategy game originally but the game holds up to high APM like shit.
They need to be easier and more automated.Nobody is ready to hear or do this, pressing Q ever 30 seconds is not good or fun
>>737666651You are objectively right though, there is NOTHING less fun than hotkeying a command center or town hall or whatever and pressing 1 every 8 seconds to hit another hotkey to queue something up or lose because the devs think deficient UI is good.
the way you know it isn't ever going to come backthe popular way to do it would be to handle it more like an auto battler and less like a micro heavy constant brawl>multiple phases (building phase, combat phase, etc)>player build shit during the strategy phase>most building build units on their own, send those units during the combat phase towards enemy base>player only has very little control during the combat phase, most of it is handled by the AI, but maybe players can influence the AI in specific ways (maybe on a cooldown)>probably some sort of hero unit that the player controls directly during the combat phase>but that's not RTS anymoreyeah no shit, if you think RTS is coming back you're in for a rude fucking awakening buddy
>>737666648No, the entire game is based around clicking fast instead of having a strategy. The fact that they didn't update the basic gameplay with the remaster is proof enough. You can't do basic actions like rally a worker onto a mineral line, or control more than 12 units, or select multiple production buildings because the game WANTS you to click fast. This isn't strategy, it's gookie clicker.
>>737667176The game before Korea and after Korea are not the same thing, it was not intended to play the way Koreans played it.
>>737667358Then why didn't they fix it?For example, in AoE2 camels weren't supposed to take extra anti-ship bonus damage, so that was fixed in the remaster.
If aoe4 would auto build and assign villagers so I could focus on army and builds I'd play it all dayAre there any RTS that automate the mundane tasks? Or at least warn you about forgetting to build villagers because you were fighting. Mobas didn't kill rts they're just easierAll these stupid fucking devs thinking outdated game design is good because the classics did it
>>737667459Because retarded devs.
>>737667459Because Korea became their market not anyone else and Korea is autistic.
>>737667484Off the top of my head, Rise of Nations has worker automation (as long as there's a workable building like a lumber camp nearby). Tzar also has worker automation (they start doing random shit they can nearby), as well as AI assisted gameplay which can be activated to control parts of the game, but I never tried it out.Also just hotkey your TCs and rally the workers onto something if you're gonna be fighting.
A modern RTS would need at the very least:>WASD movementFaster response/scrolling, frees your other hand to control units.>An alternative to the grid controls since WASD is in useGrid controls are objectively the best, but not compatible with WASD.>AutomationSee Cossacks' infinite unit queue for example, there's no reason it shouldn't be a thing in other games. Infinite queue means you don't waste res on queued units, since a new one is queued only after the current one is finished.
>>737658627just give me more autistic map clearing shit with a veneer of strategy, I've been revisiting DoW1 frequently for almost 20 years because of that shit I have no interest in esports faggotry
>>737668208It's amazing how something as simple as strategic points make for a more dynamic RTS match.
>>737665897Koreans do not care about strategy, they care about epic plays and grinding. They ruin everything they touch and that is not an exaggeration.
>>737667931>Grid controlsWhat do you mean?
>>737669854The unit control buttons being mapped to a relative grid instead of random hotkeys like 'A' for attack move.
>>737670113Why wouldn't you have your nearest buttons mapped to formations?
>>737658627>It's maybe the 3rd best genreWhat are the first two?
>>737670397Formations like in AoE2? It works with Z/V for toggling between Line/Split formation.
>>7376707201). MMOs.2). Survival Crafting (Minecraft; ARK), especially PvP.
>>737658627Nobody here dares discuss the elephant in the room.
has any rts singleplayer topped wc3 yet?
>>737670898What are the top 5 MMOs?
>>737670984I don't think most people would play 1v1 instead of team games, but PvP games are absolutely more popular than PvE games. The difference between AI and real players is huge. Playing real players turns on so many systems that your head buzzes.
>>737670898Jesus christ no.
>>737663751If you think depth is bigger = better that's a misunderstanding of where depth comes from. You can stack resources, map size, and units forever and never arrive at something with the depth of play in STARCRAFT 1 or 2. Depth arises from platforming the interplay of opponents, which other RTS bog down by stacking piles of numbers. If you enjoy a game that "feels" bigger that's fine, but play in RTS should be stretching your attention so thin that you don't have time to appreciate what's happening in the moment. Appreciation is in retrospect for difficult games.>>737661653You are eye-wateringly retarded.
>>737671784see >>737661653The scope of Starcraft is ridiculously smaller than any real RTS. Even an AI has raped the top players of Starcraft. Starcraft is a solved game, it just comes down to mechanical skill and execution.
>>737671059I recently discovered BFME 1 and 2. The first game does a great job creating fun missions that recreate scenes from the LOTR movies.
>>737671784I do not play RTS to play a fucking action game.
Tried having a game of Warcraft 3 online recently. Fuck me was it stressful, I'll be going back to comfy empire total war thanks
>>737671784>If you think depth is bigger = better that's a misunderstanding of where depth comes from.You're making a false dichotomy: “bigger = shallow” vs. “tight = deep”. That’s not where depth actually comes from. Depth comes from meaningful trade-offs under constraint -- not from how small the map is or how fast you have to click.>play in RTS should be stretching your attention so thin that you don't have time to appreciate what's happening in the momentSupCom stretches attention with multiple fronts, economic scaling, long-term vs. short-term tradeoffs, and risk (adjacency, clustering, expansion). You would have to be godly to play a 10x10km map perfectly in a 1v1, and maps get as big as 81x81km.
>>737671784You're coming at this with the assumption that I like or appreciate Starcraft as a game in any way or that I think good RTS gameplay is only playable by autists on adderall. I do not.
TOTALTA-LIKEFAGDEATHIf you fucks played something else people wouldn't be so weary of coming here to talk about RTS like Command and Conquer Generals or Lord of the Ring battle for Middle Earth
>>737673786I own C&C Generals and thought it sucked total ass.
>>737673786Nobody (except maybe Zero-K schizo) is stopping you from talking about those games anon
>>737658627>What do you think the genre needs to realize it's true potential?It realized its true potential 20 years ago. Might as well ask when will jacks or hoop and stick will be reaching their summit
It's time to leave FAF.Leave behind the remnants of the past, the imperfect code that needs tweaking like an old engine constantly in need of oil.It's time to leave what that love behind to create something worthy of even more love. New engine, old experience. New mechanics, old balance. New game, old community, so on and so forth.
I think the major part is that the mechanics people did love about RTS games got spun off into their own genres.
>>737674078>It's time to leave FAF.Isn't that what BARfag(s) say all the time to convince people to play it?
Have all camera perspectives. Zoom in out. Global economy. Detectable environments. Mix of Call to Arms GoHO and Over the Top WW1, Bannerlord and BattleCry of Freedom. Dying fetus instrumental with some Megadeth Youthanasia
picture this:StarCraft 3.What would you want from it?
>>737674257>Global economyWhat do you mean?
>>737674257>Global economy.You mean the market mechanic from Sins of a Solar Empire right?
Any RTS games with a heavy focus on logistics? I not only want to take over the map, but choke the enemy supply lines.
>>737674272I could not give less of a fuck about the 'real' game, so an engine that's far less rigid than Starcraft's for the purpose of UMS and an arcade without Blizzard's money grubbing bullshit.
>>737658627>What do you think the genre needs to realize it's true potential?Stop trying to make the next big e-sports hit and focus on making fun campaigns with a lot of cool units. Make players feel like they're a brilliant commander doing awesome shit. Only a very small subset of spergs actually care about competitive RTS gameplay.
>>737674272I given up hope StarCraft 3's story being good after the dogshit that was StarCraft 2's Legacy of The Void ending so it being a completely Multiplayer focused game would be ideal
>>737658627Anime tits.
>>737670984I agree with this. I go out of my way to avoid playing with other people. The few muliplayer games i do play are only with friends
So, DORF rts says he's gonna try to release in 2027, how long will it actually take?
>>737674654>I agree with this. I go out of my way to avoid playing with other people. The few muliplayer games i do play are only with friendsyou don't have any friends and you will be forever a chickenCAW CAW CAW CAW CAW CAW
>>737673786I played other games and I didn't like any of them, at all. What more do you want?
>>737666027obviously
>>737661869>The reason the genre died isn't because people lost interest, it's because the genre doesn't appeal to a wide range of peopleIts not dead. Its alive and well. Plenty of people play SC, WC, AOE, BAR, and so on, its like you say just not a genera that is that popular. And that is fine because not everything needs to be mainstream and popular for people to enjoy it and have a good time. Of course its cool with esport hype but oh well.. >>737667110What you describe here exists, and they have even less players then traditional RTS games.
>>737674454Wargame style games, if you can prevent the enemy from resupplying some of his key units you can gain an advantage.
>>737667110>>player only has very little control during the combat phase, most of it is handled by the AIThis is fucking boring, I don't care about you wanting to larp as muh commanding officer sitting in his deck, giving commands to units is the core gameplay of RTS games.
>>737676163>This is fucking boringTo you.
>>737658627>What do you think the genre needs to realize it's true potential?Focus on campaigns and PVE experiences, not PVP bullshit.Actually utilize modern hardware to have large unit counts or complexities.Just to be clear, Homeworld (from the late 90's) has more unit complexity and COUNT than Iron Harvest (2020's)That's bullshit, modern devs are lazy niggers.Empire of the Ants (2001) had unit morale, temperature/height affecting unit stats, each sub-unit in a squad had it's own healthbar, complicated egg laying system, ant hill design mattered, etc.Empire of the Ants (2025) literally has no modelled individual units, 'squads' are just big floating healthbars that smash together until one dies first.
>>737676238>A game>But it plays itself
>>737676267Campaigniggers don't play games nor buy them
>>737676440Shut up BARnigger
>>737676440>Campaigniggers don't play games nor buy themThey are literally 90%+ of your playerbase and customers. Lmao.
>>737676163I actually played an RTS where you don't have the option to give commands to units directly and instead gave them higher level orders by setting action flags in an area that the AI would prioritize over other options Wasn't bad.
>>737676405>implying there's anything wrong with Mechabellum's gameplayThe only problem is that it's another fragment for the autochess genre when it's not big enough to maintain a competitive community when split among 40 different games
>>737676440Your kind are the reason why Sins of a Solar Empire 1 didn't have a campaign
just make a new battle for middle earth game
>>737676440As opposed to mpfags who play the same one game for 20 years?
>>737675025With that one extra dev he's getting through the kickstarter, the team will double in size so he could shoot for a 2030 release hopefully
>>737676440Is it a fucking live service genre? No? Then some campaignfag playing the game for 5 minutes but buying it at full price is preferable from a business standpoint to someone buying it 50% off and playing it for 10000 hours.
>>737674272Kill Modern Blizzard before they dare to soil Starcraft any further
>>737674272>What would you want from it?Starcraft 3Retcons the entire SC2 trilogyHas Kerrigan (Queen of Blades and Kerrigan are the same fucking person, why did SC2 think otherwise???) be the big bad.UED show up again, in full force to blunt some of the Zerg's rampage but even they are pushed back. Huge battles, amazing setpieces and lore, characters are treated seriously for a change.Final battle has Jim personally put a bullet in Kerrigan's head for revenge, for Fenix and for all the innocent souls she devoured in her quest for power.
RTS needs the following things to succeed>Good campaign >fun cutscenes>fun unit responses >responsive movements >good OST none of these involve multiplayer listening and pandering to compfags makes the game shit
>>737677102>RTS needs the following things to succeed>*List*Whoops sorry, didn't read.How about a SC2 clone with forced Esports and minimal singleplayer content, with all the factions being hyper balanced against each other so there's no nuance at all? That sounds fun right? That'll be 70 USD, plus tax, plus tip...Oh and heaps of microtransaction skins too!
>>737676459>>737676469>>737676530>>737676535>>737676584>>737676903>>737677102>Anxiety
>>737677192Sure, go ahead and make a game for 10% of the playerbase. You'll make GORILLIONS!
>>737677192What?
GameDev here I'm starting a new project which will be an incremental game mixed with an RTS. I'll add the high level blurb from my design doc.>You play as a clan of orcs that destroys human bases and loots them. Everything you destroy gives you gold and wood. Once you lose all your troops you go back to your base to spend the resources. Resources can be used on upgrades, new buildings and new troops. You then deploy your troops again and the cycle repeats until you destroy the human base.The design goals are to separate the base management and combat to give the player proper stress and relief. It is also to improve upon a lot of campaign designs where the best strategy is just to play defensive, get to max army and kill the enemy.At a high level does this sound like an interesting concept?
>>737676459>>737676469>>737676530>>737676535>>737676584>>737676903>>737677102
>>737677192most people have anxiety when it comes to competitive games, specially 1v1, that's one of the reasons genres focused around that are less popular than team games
>>737677621Still not buying your game, go broke.
>>737667484>Are there any RTS that automate the mundane tasks?Dungeon Keeper's imps are smart-ish workers.In the sense that you just click on what you want carved, and they decide by themselves if they want to help with construction, extraction, maintenance, fortification or expansion.Probably not exactly what you are looking for.
>>737677621>he thinks PvE automatically equates to being easy
>>737670984I agree with the idea but the bottom addition ruin the meme's structure.Should be added as just a regular part of the descriptions.
>>737677923>Implying easy games can't be fun?It's fine for games to not be cock and ball torture simulators.
>>737674272Same as Warcraft IV.Or Homeworld IV.The series has been raped way too deep to continue without officially declaring most of it non-cannon.
>>737677997I never implied that.
>>737678023Sorry then, it's just that the resident PvP-tard thinks that a game being remotely 'casual' is a bad thing.
>>737677621OOOH OOH GOOKCLICKER PRESS THE RED BUTTON NOW OOH YOU FORGOT YOUR QUEEN INJECTS OOH PRESS THE BLUE BUTTON NOWYOU WON! WOW, YAY, YIPPEE!
>>737677102>>fun unit responses How do I do that with no budget?Voice act that shit myself and use a voice changer?
>>737678018>Homeworld IV>Retcons HW2-3 from existence>Hiigaran civil war over who should lead the empire, various clans for a nice diverse range of ships and characters>'Bad guy' faction comprised of Imperial cultist Hiigarans and various pirate factions helping them>Final mission has you fight their fuckhuge mothership battlestar>All seems lost until a ship warps in>"This is the Kiith Somtaaw Warship Kuun Laan! How can we be of assistance?"
>>737678118Pull a Killing Floor 1
>>737678118>How do I do that with no budget?Literally friends, family and yourself putting on accents.Deus Ex did it and we love it.
>>737678140I hate you, because it's beautiful and will never happen.
>>737678272The Somtaaw being retconned out of the IP pisses me off because Cataclysm in many ways is superior to HW1...
>>737677875>>737677923>>737678105
>>737678617Don't you have more staff to layoff because your game failed to sell?
>>737678617
>>737676440>they hated him because he said the truth
>>737678757Nigger that ain't Jesus, that's Satan!
>>737678617>This is my hand. I can move it. Blood gushes through it. The Sun still shines. And I, a Chad PVP'er, im playing RTS with Death.
TAslopfags are way too confident when their games look like this
Reminder that Beyond All Reason's campaign is shit
>>737679015Why are you posting a crusty screencap of a meme match?
>>737679090What campaign? It's all just Furry nonsense no better than Casualties Unknown
>>737679103AoE2 looks good on stream
>>737679103that's how you play 99% of the time, zero SOUL
>>737679414Beyond All Reason plays close and personal actuallyLots of micro and dodging blastsThat is a special event match
>>737677568NoThat's not an RTS that's a city builder with extra steps
>>737677568So... WC2-themed Warzone2100, with the Assault missions being suicide instead of extraction?Why not, but that won't carry the game by itself. You will still need to nail everything else, it's not a very strong gimmick.I would at least give it a try.
>>737677568The concept is similar to games like ufo defense, Dominions, Total War and many wargames, you essentially have 2 layers, the tactical where the battles are fought and operational/strategic that serves to contextualize the tactical battles and provide a sense of continuity, you got the right idea, if well designed and balanced it can be really fun.
>>737658627Stop catering to Esports.100% effort into a massive single player campaign. Release custom tools later down the line for free. It doesn't need to be available at launch, all focus should be on the campaign.
>>737680418-100000000000% shareholder value fired & sued
>>737680418dust front soon brother
>>737661627no marketinglooks ass, graphics badmenu/lobby is pretty bad
>>737679414Big robots shooting big lasers is pure SOVL.
>>737658627it simply needs more RTS games to be made, then cream will rise and all thatthen everybody will eventually get what they need - campaignfags will get their campaign, mpfags will get their sweatfest, lorefags will get their story, custommaps fags will still play wc3 because the level editor is still somehow worse
'minder that over 90% of RTS players don't EVER touch multiplayer, and less than 10% of multiplayer games are PvP. Don't let /v/ sweatcucks speak for the fanbase just because they're more tryhard at pointless apm spam due to literal autism. THEY HAVE NO SAY IN THIS. They are the smallest niche of an already niche genre.Multiplayer game design is anti-RTS. Developers purposefully avoid cool units, mechanics and campaigns which are the heart and soul of RTS for the sake of le balance. The delusional elitist comptards have been killing RTS for too long.You may SEETHE, you may COPE, but RTS is a SINGLE PLAYER ONLY genre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XehNK7UpZschttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMrTgmivEk
>>737662043all the shots just phase right through the terrainits especially obviously with the bluewhite laser guns
The problem with RTS is there is no rubberbanding. Any advantage eventually snowballs into an inevitable outcome. You'd have to make the defenders stronger the more cornered they are.
>>737680994not as visible when you are looking at it from far above while doing 3 things and moving the camera around to manage fight and ecoalso they are small building sized railguns firing through the edges of sand dunes
>>737667484>Are there any RTS that automate the mundane tasks?AOE2 on Xbox sends villagers on tasks automatically.
>>737681089That's what TA reclaim is for actually. It works in both the attacker's and the defender's favor but it's easier for a defender to secure a field.
>>737681089why would you want to add comeback mechanics? shit like that ruins every game it gets added to
>>737681281Because 5 minute obvious GG no res are retarded.
>>737670984The truth is you need them both. A strong single player campaign with fun lore is what makes an RTS popular. The multiplayer scene is what keeps it alive decades afterwards.
>>737681310why? if they fucked up they fucked up, game is over
>RTS thread>look inside>fags proudly proclaim that they do not know how to play and cope how it makes them superior
>>737681089this is retarded, there are many cases when even a lost game can be turned aroundthe one with the advantage can make mistakes stillstop thinking in black and whitealso this >>737681272it's a great system, even if you have the lead you have to be careful and know how to use it
>>737681354Because if you're going to do that it should be done through an actual kill shot not an economic bleed it's impossible to recover from.
I wish more RTS games mixed the "strategy" and "tactics" aspects a bit more, treat each unit as important and treat each soldier in that unit as important.
Any RTS that only allows you to build in the immediate vicinity of your already existing buildings? This would make map control more difficult, bridging the skill gap a bit to keep it interesting.
>>737681505so just fucking concede if you know you are fucked maybe you should first define what you mean by advantage in what game and what situation
>>737681542You kinda have veterancy for that but it's not fleshed out enough.
>>737681567literally all C&C games except Generals?
>>737681323No RTS game is alive save AOE2 which has countless campaigns and singleplayer DLCs and where 99% of players don't touch multiplayer, retard
>>737681567I really like Perimeter's approach to map control and resources. You use energy for everything and you can only farm it from perfectly flat surface, and all your building must be connected to your sprawling energy grid. The more territory you control the more energy you have, but it also means more ground to protect. You can also steam shit by disconnecting enemy's energy grid and connecting it you yours.It also exists in games like Grey Goo and Earth 2150, where some factions literally have to connect all buildings with pipes for it to work
>>737681475Statistically speaking comebacks are insignificant in most games.
>>737671158>Playing real players turns on so many systems >that your head buzzwhat is the cheapest unit I can build with the most return in damage>your head will buzz
>>737667176The point os to be forced to choose where to spend your attention. Speed only helps in that it allows you to be more efficient, it doesnt solve the core idea of spending effort and attention as a resource. No pro RTS scene is half as interesting as ASL.Starcraft is also one of the best overall RTS campaigns, a major factor for its longevity.
>>737681323You just need custom map scene. Rts at its peak was what roblox is now, it was toolbox to play all the minigames made in simplestupid map creator with added bonus of having memorable campaign. Supcom, aoe and sc(2) fags lost the plot long ago.
>>737682079Statistically speaking slow snowballing matches with no hope of comeback for the losing side are insignificant in most games.
>>737682158See, you say that, and then I watch ASL and it's the most boring unwatchable shit I've ever seen.
>>737682319But not when you put them in a bucket with matches that are decided early and matches that are decided in the midgame from an early advantage. That's most of them because starting to lose means you start to lose options.
>>737682262You need a campaign too, otherwise people don't attach to the game and become emotionally invested. The base framework can only provide so much without a complimentary narrative. Sins of a Solar Empire's biggest problem is its lack of a narrative, and an announced campaign for the sequel being delayed by 2+ years is one of the biggest points of contention within the games dwindling community.
>>737682426Group C of the round of 16 was one of the most hype days in RTS of the last decade, featuring 3 players that defined their respective races, with fantastic matches and a storied rivalry.
>>737682457>matches that are decided early and matches that are decided in the midgame from an early advantageirrelevantthis is you:>I'm being outplayed>I can't win, my opponent is better and/or I made more mistakes>I know, this means the game is bad because it doesn't have systems to throw life jackets at me drowning after messing upfuck off and take your loss instead of making up these imaginary situations in a vacuum
>>737682549I do not careI literally do not careI am telling you outright I do not find Starcraft enjoyable to watch. I do not care about your meta rivalries or anything of the sort.
>>737682648There's nothing irrelevant about a statistical trend. I can't think of a single non-Smash fighting game that's as bad about it and some of those have no comeback mechanics at all.
>>737682698Too bad that it's the best. Nothing compares. You're loss.
>>737681272Reclaim is easily a snowball mechanic, not only you lose your uinit, you also give a massive resource advantage to the enemy,
>>737681850it also has a healthy competitive scene, seems like you need both
>>737683001It can be if the player's on the ball with reclaim in a way that isn't countered, which is a hell of a lot harder to pull off than it is to win a defensive fight where the wrecks are closer to the part of the map you control and where your reinforcements are streaming in much faster than theirs and reclaim the wrecks when you push them out.
The problem is nobody knows how to make a new game that is better than (or at least has an interesting enough gimmick) old ass games like AoE2, Starcraft, or Total War.
>>737683176>AoE2, Starcraft, or Total WarThose games are pretty basic in their mechanics thougheverbeitered.
>>7376586271. Ban developers from prioritizing catering to e-sports and multiplayer-centric players and focus first on the setting their game will take place in, the story, the characters, the campaign and overall single-player.2. Include a map editor which would be on the same level as the ones used in WarCraft III and StarCraft II to such a degree that people would create custom games of different genres.3. Invest in tech that would allow to enhance the gameplay and make it more interesting (like SwarmTech).4. Do not balance the game in favor of multiplayer. If something underperforms then just buff it instead of nerfing everything.5. Make each faction as distinct as possible and further improve on mechanics that exist in RTS games.6. When multiplayer is involved, allow it to grow naturally and organically. This only after you did single-player to be at least at minimum 8/10 in every way. Allow for cheesy tactics and unpredictability.7. Gatekeep your game so that people who are not RTS players, are not invested in the setting and who want to change it to fit their worldview won't ruin it.>>737678317Actually Blackbird acknowledged Cataclysm as canon on X back before HW3 was released.
>>737683703>Actually Blackbird acknowledged Cataclysm as canon on X back before HW3 was released.Who gives a shit what they think? How about they make a good game?
>>737683860>Who gives a shit what they think? How about they make a good game?If I remember correctly, Randy Pitchford probably let SBI waltz in and ruin HW3.Also don't expect them doing a good game after how hard they fumbled HW3.
>>737658627We need something to look up to. A C&C of the new generation. Indie games just can't have the same mass appeal.
>>737679090>>737679137>bar>furryHuh?
How do I play supreme commander? I'm super confused on what units I should be making and how many factories I actually need.
>>737684096their writer is literally a furry fanfic author
>>737680896>lorefagsWe need a Dark Souls RTS, with every mission objective written Zanzibar style and the game just rolling the dices every few minute to decide if you won.Then you let Vaati do his thing and marketing is taken care of for free.
How is this?
>>737682832I think it's really irrelevant as long as we are talking about a non-existent game in a vacuum and it's non-existent statistics.
>>737681089How do you do that in a way that:>isn't too easy to exploit so it doesn't end up favoring the player who is actually winning already>has an impact that isn't just "let's stall your defeat for 10 more minutes">has an impact that isn't "if you win, you lose" (blue shell goes here)Reclaim does fit, but it doesn't work well will RTS that use a lot of melee units and can be tricky to fit in some lore.
>>737684825>Castle defend from cheating AI the gameIt was okay.
>>737681395Sorry bro I have this comic that puts me as the chad and you as the virgin, so ummmm better luck next time
>>737681395Dark Souls thread are the same.PvEfags crying and shitting themselves about how they shouldn't have to learn the most basic mechanic and that PvPchads are sweatlords for just actually knowing what they are doing.
This game is pretty good but they keep adding DEI mud hut "civilizations" and Chinese mythology into it.
>>737685428I'm still annoyed we don't have a full Gael campaign, or a follow up to the William Wallace campaign
>>737681567RTS threads really need an equivalent of /tg/ "have you tried not playing DnD?"What you asking is literally the genre default. Stop watching nothing but AoE and Starcraft on Twitch.
>>737685138The first thing I can think of is morale that's easier to damage the higher it is.
>>737685524Nvm, I've just learned there's a full Robert the Bruce campaign
>>737681850SCII is plenty alive, thanks to Co-op.
>>737683582Mechanics, maybe.Production values however, make them forever unbeatable by anything that isn't a massive studio.A massive studio tend to aim for way more profitable shit than RTS.
>>737685543D&D is actual shit and doesn't even serve its own goals well for most printed editions.
>>737685428fuck off to pol
>>737685428>mud hut "civilizations"Yeah I don't understand why they added Vikings and Celts.
>>737686158White people
>>737667176blitz chess is also fast
>>737667176this is "tank controls bad" type of opinion
>What do you think the genre needs to realize it's true potential?Battle for Middle-earth III.
>>737667176Korean pros can talk all day about BW strategy and the meta continues to change based on it. You're a brain dead low apm shitter that can't play any game fast if your life depended on it.
>>737658627>What do you think the genre needs to realize it's true potential?Nothing.We have AoE2, Broodwar and to a lesser extent Warcraft 3.There's a wide variety of fun jank and exclusively singleplayer experiences on top of that, singleplayer in those three are also good.There's no other genre that has realized it's potential to the extent that RTS has.Developers and content creators are unnecessary at this point, but if they want to succeed they should stop chasing the high of 2011 Starcraft 2 esports.Delusional developers who lived in an sc2 bubble thought they would innovate the genre by making battle aces and stormgate, and content creators shilled for it because they could get their next pay check.
>>737658627all i know is i realised rts wasn't for me when i first tried to learn how to get good at age of mythology multiplayer as a lad and a soulful website instructed me to spam one unit at the enemy base while spending 15 minutes just mass producing villagers and i quickly realised that there's no fun to be had there
>>737674272>What would you want from it?Ritual suicide of any top level blizzard-activision employee
You now remember Starcraft 3
>>737660229>>737662967Get rekt
>>737686805Most people in RTS play team games and UMS games like tower defense, rpgs, dota etc. 1v1 esport sweat fest is just one way to play but not the most popular...by far.
>>737676405mechabellum is just rock-paper-scissors with extra steps.
>>737686805look into RTT, no build orders, just fun tactical combat
>>737686158Celts made France.Vikings made ... Normans, which made France and England.
>>737658627Mechanically the genre will probably never go higher than it already has. That's not necessarily a bad thing though.
>>737686925i do vaguely remember enjoying dawn of war 2 multiplayer matches even though my teammates may have been hating me for not knowing what i was doing and just having fun trying to support them with my units>>737687050i'll have to look into that
>>737686741I don't care what Koreans babble between themselves about.
>>737658627RTS is fine. People need to just fucking stop pretending that they like RTS when they really don't.Fucking why does AOE2 still net tens of thousands of concurrent players every day while it's one of the complex and busywork RTS game out there? Just play something with less tiny units to handle like Warcraft 3 or Dawn of War but no no no rather just cry about things and force yourself to play the game where you don't even make any army until you've spent 20 minutes controlling 100s of tiny ants like some dumb sheep.
>>737685723Yeah that's cool and all, but I wish we'd see innovation instead of this relatively bland concept of units just being walking stat-checks.I wish there were more games like Supreme Commander. Where units have multiple "parts" to them. The humble Loyalist have 2 weapon systems that works independent of each other and sports a anti-missile system for utility.The Monkeylord having (pitiful) anti-air capabilities alongside (equally pitiful) long range cannons as sidearms for its main-cannon the microwave laser.The Aeon (spits) Colossus with its main particle beam and dual gravity-arms.Instead we see modern games continue to have simplistic units that can only attack OR move and can only target one unit at a time. It's just healthbar vs dps. Boring!Why can't we have units that can be crippled if their movement-system is damaged? Their main gun gets taken out? You target its defense-system and the shield/reactive armor stops working etc.I also wish games like Stronghold would've inspired modern games. The ability to actually "man the walls" instead of just being some garrison option where the units just enter a building and can disembark - a glorified (immobile) transport.Imagine if we could change the terrain and actually have units interact on that premise.But alas, we're stuck with a wall just being a high hitpoint building that's just an obstacle.
>>737674541Low IQ. You're not a real gamer. You do not enjoy RTS. Stick to moviegames.
>>737686869God, what a disaster.
>>737687327you will notice that all games you've mentioned are 20+ years oldRTS is not really fine
>>737686962Yeah the real redpill for peopel asking for RTS to be "easier to play" and not be "chink apm slop" is that once you remove all the mechanical skill barriers it turns into minmax spreadsheet game where instead of overcoming odds with some sick you rely on luck and then cry about bad luck when it doesn't work out.
>>737687447>overcoming odds with some sickovercoming odds with some sick moves*
>>737687334You're a great ideas guy but all you're making is a tech demo and then the novelty runs out quick. If you want a tight and balanced game you can replay forever the units get standardized and their interactions predictable.
>>737687446And what does that matter when you can't make the genre any better? And why do people still jerk off to aoe2 and cry about skillbarrier when it all could be solved if these "unskilled players" just started playing the games and played vs themselves.
Why do the Tau have such shit options for anti-tank until Tier 3? The IG stronghold is surprisingly harder than some of the other factions because of all the strong tanks they have and the Tau just have fuck all to deal with it until they get hammerheads or even Krootox out to deal with it. Broadsides are slow as fuck, shoot slow as fuck, and need to be entrenched before they can bring the big guns to bear while still needing a dedicated transport to get them around the map at a reasonable speed. Putting missile pods on Crisis suits feels like its wasting a lot of their potential dps compared to the flamers and they also shoot surprisingly slow with them as well. Leaving early T1 stealthsuits with fusion blasters and their emp grenades to harass and shut down tanks, but their dps is also painfully low that Leman Russes and the BANEBLADE mop them up fast if there's even a hint of detection. The blueberries rely on being sneaky little shits and on a map where you have to brave artillery strikes, infantry waves, and tank harass they're weaknesses start to become apparent.
is there a list of all the rts campaigns worth playing
>>737687447It doesn't though.
>>737687556You're supposed to keep your stealth suits alive and rely on them getting upgraded into the midgame, yeah. It is rough, it's the weakest point of the faction. Barracudas are alright.
>>737687519Because the interface getting in the way of them doing things makes the game unfun for themThere's the problemIt will never go awayYou cannot incentivize someone who is not having fun from competition primarily to overcome this.
>>737687626>click thing>give thing commandYou can't make things any simpler than this without sacrificing control.
>>737687626You're right but conversely that means games with that level of micromanagement are unviable for a general audience. Which I agree with, it sucks, but it's true.
>>737687514>Supreme Commander doesn't exist>Stronghold doesn't existOh my mistake. I thought this was the RTS thread and thus would be filled with people with an IQ above 100.
>>737687585How not? Think of turning a fighting game into turn based. Now every combo will be perfect and every suboptimal choice that happens is just because you guessed wrong, how fast you can think and move your fingers will have no meaning any more.
>>737687665It's not making it simpler, it's making the interface stronger for less friction. Better commands that make your clicks do more per action, multiple selection criteria, less APM taxes.
>>737686001>>737686158last update added literal south american loin cloth savages that never did anything of note in history, fuck you retards
>>737687793Can you give examples of such commands? Do you not know of attack-move? And there are modifier keys that let you select multiple units or units of the same type or save them into groups that you can then select with 1 button. Also in many of these games you can get around with surprisingly low apm when you actually know what you're doing.
>>737687604I haven't touched Soulstorm yet, not sure I will. I'm working on a hard DC campaign as Tau.
>>737687778False equivalence. You can see games where APM doesn't matter as much and it doesn't boil down to guessing games.
>>737687843shut up niggerfaggot
>>737687851>Select all units below 50% health in area>Command to instantly retreat wounded units to earlier defined retreat point>Auto requeue for building units>Persistent unit group setting between matches>Infinite looping commandsThese are all real commands that exist in real RTS.
>>737688001and "muh vikings" is your argument, lmaothey created ulfberht steel, invaded byzantium, sailed the world and discovered north americabrownoid or retarded
>>737687875Such as?
>>737688094you are a queer
>>737688169
>APMlets getting uppity againHow many times must this be told to you retards?APM MUST be taxed.If there's a game where you're able to reach the "APM-ceiling", that is, the part where nothing you do changes the outcome. You're completely and utterly at the mercy of the game's balance. This is terrible design. Attention is a resource.Speed is a resource.Being able to prioritize where you direct your attention and the speed of which you apply your commands is skill expression. You may not like it, but this is the core, the foundation, of REAL TIME strategy.
>>737688020So you're asking the AI to play the fight for you? Auto requeue doesn't work unless you constantly float resources which is already the losing position. And what do you mean by persistent unit grouping?, you don't even make same units in every game and they might not have the same purpose, you split units based on the current situation. Besides making groups is literally just selecting them and modifierkey + number.
>>737688020>spoilerThen why don't you mention from which games they hail from.
>>737687447Build raiders and maintain harassment of the enemy so you don't get blind countered.https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/334920/view/518611248440410918
>>737687843What did Vikings do of note, other than raping english women and looting monasteries?What did the Celts do of note, other than uhhhhh...
it needs meta progression. simple as. starcraft 2 did a decent job. i also like when units carry over across missions. starting w/ games like myth way back whensomething like dawn of war 2 arpg-like rts mechanics, starcraft 2 progression (or even more in depth stuff) AND actually advertising those mechanics as front and centerthis could save the genre.if you show me some faggoty mobile looking game where i know the game is just an APM test for geeks I SLEEPid also like actual soul/attention to detail autism like gates of hell, but id never expect that
>>737688401>and "muh vikings" is your argument, lmaoSo predictable lol
>>737688316>Auto requeue doesn't work unless you constantly float resources which is already the losing position. Wrong>And what do you mean by persistent unit grouping?Exactly what it sounds like.>Besides making groups is literally just selecting them and modifierkey + number.And what do you think happens when you have more units of the same type?
until then RTS will remain alongside the 'arena shooter' genre-- a million boomer fags asking for ye olde game but not showing up to buy or actually play it when it goes down>>737688424
>>737688306Skill expression is a loaded term.
>>737688357Yes so what then dictates the winner? Game balance and AI wonkiness.
>>737687447I think if you're making an RTS, you should always include a few easy to do, reasonably good early strategies that even the most braindead can pull off but a skilled player can stop without too much issue. It takes no real skill to do a Nod bike rush or a Zerg 6 zergling rush or even just a Protoss cannon rush. Something that's very basic, but can net you a win without needing all that super micro or macro skills, but if it fails you've set yourself back. Pros and cons, really.
Why is "skill expression" always used to defend the most retarded game mechanics possible?https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/Cold_Takes/3_-_Fight_your_opponent,_not_the_UI
>>737688483You're right. Next time I'll include a trigger warning.
>>737688468RTS are more alive than arena shooters, AoE2, supcom, BAR, warcraft 3 have actual communities playing it, generating content etc.
>>737688316Yes, thank you for effectively proving my point for me you fucking retarded faggot. You do not understand WHY these people do not enjoy the games you do.
Did you rike it?
>>737688306apm ceiling is NOT fine when it's like 80% macro. if it's like COH i will accept the apm reality gladlysc2 players with like 8000 hours have spent like 7500 of those hours doing the exact same fucking thing on repeat. slight decisions being made after 1 probe goes out
>>737688493Isn't rushing usually very micro intensive? You're betting on early fight that must go perfect or you're done for. Of course if your opponent doesn't know how to respond and they suck then you can also suck but that's not something exclusive to rushing or even cheesing.
>>737688527That's less the fault of arena shooters and more the fault of id software, Raven Software, and Epic Games being mega retarded during the transition to the 360.
>Being faster to click between factories and queue up vultures is 'more strategical' than being able to select 4 factories and queue up a vulture in eachThis is why everyone laughs at gooks/startards.
>>737688527people still play supcom? i had my gang playing zero k for awhile and it was sickthat being said, other than aoe2 those games are kept alive by 40 year old euroswhat im referring to is a second GOLDEN ERA
>>737688490>skill expression faggot wants things to be so simple to learn so they can comprehend itRetard. You will never understand RTS.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeFfu0CI0Yhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHCXLuTix58
>>737658627co-op modes, friendslop RTS
>>737688559You say that but meanwhile aoe2 is the most alive RTS today by large marging and it's very macro oriented game where you don't even really make any army before you have teched up 2 times and have close to 100 workers.
>>737688592>That's less the fault of arena shootersNo it isn't.
>>737688626>>737688490exactly, apm being key is so zoomie. consider the opposite end of the spectrum,https://store.steampowered.com/app/669330/Mechabellum/balance is always going to be a pain point (was in sc2 too), but there's some real competition going on in this game
>>737688584Depending on the kind of rush you're going for it can be, but early harass that wrecks the opponents economy enough you can take a big lead and turn that into a win is something just about anyone can do. I learned very early how easy it was to build like 2-3 attack bikes in CnC3 and just snipe the harvester before pissing off before the missile squads could get there to stop it. Though I suppose that begs the question of what are simple tactics new players can use to win that doesn't require that much effort on their part?
>>737688640i did just mention that here; i didnt really finish getting my idea out. i still play aoe2 on and off, super casually>>737688625
>>737688651Yes it is. Arena shooters didn't die because the genre was inherently bad and loaded with annoying Q3 compfags, the most played mode in UT2k4 was Onslaught where casuals could contribute easy. It died because Quake, Doom, and Unreal Tournament all committed suicide with underwhelming games within a 3 year span with Doom 3, Quake 4, and Unreal Tournament 3 and that killed the genre's momentum.
I saw the ads on 4chan for Gold Gold Adventure Gold and decided to buy it.It's a Majesty clone with some rougelite elements. I'm honestly hooked and will shill for free. It honestly the best Majesty clone and it's clear the devs actually know and understand what mase Majesty so good. The rougelite stuff actually fits perfectly well and doesn't feel shoe horned in and has very interesting augments, such as "everyday your lowest level hero gets sacrificed to give your highest level hero permanent stat increase."The artwork and animations are super cute, specially the women. It's not much of a surprise they've been using the cow girl as a bit of the mascot.I'd highly recommend the game.
>>737688776nta but i genuinely think the genre just dosent offer enough. they were big in an era where multiplayer was still new, and features/gameplay was largely constrained by scope and technology.
>>737688625>people still play supcom?Yeah.The nerds made their own launcher and balance-updates etc.Shit's very impressive.Google Forged Alliance Forever (FAF).
>>737688817Fortnite exists. Offers a shitload less than UT2k4.
>>737688776It's not that it was bad but there wasn't much else out. Now there's so many games, many which offer more dopamine for less work, so why would anyone bother with arena shooter unless they're really into it.
>>737688776UT3 was a bit of a stepdown from UT2k4 for sure, the graphics were really good though and the hover board was aight
>>737688824ah, right. heard about this. man... supcom (and TA... and zero k) is the best. my favorite type of macro in an rts. i guess aoe2 is the original inspiration but i love how over the top it gets in these games. where it's about fucking THROUGHPUT or something
>>737688776>the most played mode in UT2k4 was OnslaughtYes, they tried to pivot into some battlefield at home and it didn't work.Arena shooters don't have staying power because what made them work in ye olden times was having a quick bout with your friends at a sleep-over or some shit.It's not a genre that works for multiple hours a day multiple days a week gaming.
>>737688867yea but... squad, tarkov, deadlock, overwatch-- everything in between. arena shooters seriously dont stand a chance. there's been 1-2 released like every year for 20 years and they all die. arenafags are DELUSIONAL
>>737688776Doom 3, Quake 4, and UT3 weren't bad games, many sold well and were well received by the public and critics alike, but I think you're missing a crucial element here. That being Call of Duty: Modern Warfare. That game was such a massive success, and cast such a wide shadow, that games for years after its release would start to imitate not just its gameplay, but it's setting, it's visuals, the works in the hopes that they'd get even a fraction of the same success. Why make an arena shooter or a corridor shooter when the modern day tactical shooter was selling like hotcakes every single year? It was a trend just as much as open world souls like games or hero shooters are now, with similar results of bottom feeders trying to get the scraps from the bigger fish.
>>737688887>i guess aoe2 is the original inspirationThe heck you smoking dude?
>>737688867I am a fortnite hater but you genuinely didn't play the game if you say so
>>737688401>What did the celts do of notemade it out of the stone age for starters unlike those south american tribals in the last updatealso vikings>>737688094
>>737688957for that brand of macro. aoe2 (at least in team games) is like 15 barracks waypointed across the map. im talking about how things have been iterated on. pretty sure bullfrog werent ignorant to AOE during development
RTS needs to embrace the Grand Strategy types of singleplayer modes, like Total War. Instead of grinding ladder, I should be able to start up a campaign (which plays differently every time) and have my battles influence each other as I conquer one area to the next.Total War perfected this. That's why it's selling like hotcakes.Total War is the natural evolution of RTS.
>>737689042>>737688957cavedog*... its been awhileRIP
gaymer
>>737689061>campaign (which plays differently every time)this is what I want too
>>737689042>Bullfrog???
>>737688973I did though. UT2k4 had a huge amount of game modes vanilla and a ton of mods.
>>737689061>campaign (which plays differently every time)If only there was a way to play against opponents that didn't follow AI patterns so that you could always be on your toes.
>>737689119>>737689085
>>737689061>>737689110From Dawn of War DC/SS to Warlords Battlecry campaigns like that have already existed for a long time
>>737689201personally I want something more like the SC2 campaign that changes every playthrough
>>737689034wtf I just saw this art googling medieval scotland.Some really cool shit that would make for an amazing mission.>England wants to cleanse you from the British isles>Fight back against them & win, alongside your best friend Douglas.>On death-bed, feel bad that you didn't get to partake in the Crusades, because you were shitting on the English>On his request, the best-friend embalms his heart and goes on a Holy quest to deliver Robert the Bruce's heart to Jerusalem >Stops off in Spain on request of their King to kill black people>He ends up getting surrounded, so throws the heart into their ranks to signify he'll die only if Robert the Bruce leads the charge.>"Forward, brave heart, as ever thou were wont to do, and Douglas will follow thee or die!"
>>737689061I hate that shit so much. The actual battles in TW suck too, that's why they just let you skip them.
>>737689061>Grand Strategy types of singleplayer modes, like Total War.lol
>>737688020>Select all units below 50% health in area>Command to instantly retreat wounded units to earlier defined retreat point>Auto requeue for building unitsWarzone 2100 has those 3, in case you have yet to play it.
i actually loved the near-arpg gameplay of dow2; it was probably my favorite single player rts campaign by a mile. my next favorite mightve been wc3 so it sort of tracks.it was a little flawed, but was so close to being the GOAT. dow3 was one of the most disappointing games of all time.
>>737689351Yep. I had that game and Spring in mind. Spring had even more out of the ordinary ones that weren't default like an auto Economy command widget where units would build economy in perfect proportion in a circle you drew. Wasn't as good as doing it by hand but saving yourself time made up for it.
>>737688401>What did the Celts do of note, other than uhhhhh...First sack of Rome, which is literally what pushed Romans to throw away their garbage Estruscan-style war gear and upgrade to the massively more modern one used by Gauls.People vastly underestimate how large of a threat Celts were, Caesar didn't get that glory for doing something easy.
>>737689042I'm not convinced.Basic bitch unit queues wasn't exactly a huge leap.
>>737689518you're probably right. they were just ahead of their time.
>>737688806Wanted to try the demo, then it told me my license had expired, so I gave up on it because putting a time limit on a fucking free demo is jewish and retarded.
>>737658627I think warcraft 3 is the greatest rts ever made and the entire industry went down the wrong path by trying to copy starcraft instead of warcraft 3.
>>737688306Skill expression was literally coined to justify League of Legends shittifying itself to appeal to adderall Koreans who want spectacle and not anything strategic. Fuck that shit and fuck you for using it.
>>737688806How much fanservice is there *actually* in that shit?The ads for it are 99% "touch the cow, do it now".
>>737689608there are war3 clones
>>737689702No there aren't.
>>737689702where?
>>737689702name 5
>>737689749nta but dawn of war 2 sort of was. and i think spellforce is. spellforce is dogshit though. i too want wc3 iterated on (not just rehashed by indie euros)
>>737689608Damn I wish the entire industry copied starcraft.
>>737688160BAR
>>737689608>the entire industry went down the wrong path by trying to copy starcraft instead of warcraft 3Warcraft 3 as we know it wasn't even supposed to exist.We only got it because they couldn't pull their original WoW concept during WCIII's pre-Alpha. So they decided to shelve the idea for now and make a standard-ish RTS with what they had already made.
>>737689839>dawn of war 2 sort of wasI don't see it in any respect
>>737689608I thought both of them sucked fat fucking cock.
>>737678617>a turn based strategy game with exactly equal sideshow does this help you?
>>737689929We were so lucky...
i love chokepoint maps where i can mow down enemiescoh2 with custom maps was great for thishave yet to find a newer game that has gameplay and maps like it
RTS games died because of insufficient diversity. The games barely ascended to female and black representation. Has there _ever_ been a genderqueer character in an RTS game?
>>737689820https://store.steampowered.com/app/319540/A_Year_Of_Rain/https://store.steampowered.com/app/1328990/Godsworn/https://store.steampowered.com/app/311290/SpellForce_3_Reforced/I don't have 5and there's older ones like armies of exigo that basically copied the look of warcraft 3
>>737689620>league of legendsSkill expression and micro was a thing before league had even started developing. Body blocks and surrounds in wc3 were like backdash cancel in Tekken. It's some extra steps to give yourself the upper hand in combat.
>>737690058Anon, any game (you) play has a genderqueer MC.
>>737690074godsworn is age of mythology-like, not wc3
>>737690128But I'm cishet...
>>737690194it has leveling heroes not quite the same
>>737689961the small army count and hero focus. levelling, items. further off from the multiplayer, but the campaigns were more similar. i see it as inspired-by, not like a clone.what aspect of wc3 would you expect or wnat to see from something iterating on it?
>>737690109Skill expression as a term started to be used for exactly what I was talking about even if you can use the concept elsewhere.
>>737658627Fun and engaging single player games. Pandering to multiplayer goycattle is what put the genre is on life support.
>>737690058>implyingHelper is a fat and very obvious fujo she would be instantly disowned nowadays.
>>737690290warcraft 3 players want literally warcraft 3 but not warcraft 3
>>737690316Well then you don't know what the word started means.
>>737690074nta anon but a good list, cheers
>>737690372Noone used the term skill expression. They used skill floor and skill ceiling. The term literally came into existence to describe Riot changing characters to use skillshots instead of targeted abilities because it was 'more skillful' and you could 'express more skill' with them even though it skullfucked characters who were balanced and eventually the game to the point of no return.
>>737689839>DoW2What? It's CoH inspired.>b-b-but experiencelol
>>737658627>What do you want out of the genre?Just more Command & Conquer games FUCK.Thank God for C&C's modding scene though.
>>737690346Best RTS developer (Blizzard) merging with activision (sold out) and turned into a woke console slop developer is what killed the RTS genre.
>>737690487tempest rising is funit doesn't have a kane though unfortunately
>>737690281You have one (1) heroe that can gain skills through experience and no itemization, yeah, and then everything else is like age of empires/mythology from the way you're open to have a large army rather than a smaller squad due to upkeep mechanics, and the economy is based on constant influx of peasants being shuffled between different resources based on what era you're in rather than constant focus on gold +tech breakpoints on lumber, global spells and passives like aom god's powers but sure, outside of all of its mechanics it's totally a warcraft 3 clone and not aom with a hero
>>737690448It's literally just newspeak for gosu imba micro etc.
>>737689669Not too much actually. It's not a very lewd game. But all the girls are very cute and the few sexy moments are nice. The game in general has a lot of personality and feels alive, and the gameplay is very solid.
>>737690652And my point is that anyone who uses any of that as cover for making a game strategically worse in favor of click more is a massive fucking faggot.
>>737690650fair enough, though I think upkeep is unpopular enough for future devs who liked warcraft 3 to not include it
>>737676048>What you describe here exists, and they have even less players then traditional RTS games.No, it doesn't.Mechabellum is the closest thing we have, and it's still too far away from traditional RTS, you can push the needle further towards the RTS aspect and get an interesting result>>737676163>This is boringI don't care about what you think is boring bub, I find the idea behind extraction shooters boring and frustrating, that doesn't make them not popularYour starcraft 2 zerg days are over, it's never coming back because there's no money to be made in that field, people do not want to learn how to micro hundreds of units and that's never going to change, well, not until we got CPUs in our heads or something, the only way to make it work for the average joe is to automate as much as possible and lean more into the strategy and thinking long term and less about the micro managing, people still love and enjoy base building and that's what you need to lean into if you want to make it>but what about meStick to warcraft 3, the game's fine
>>737690768Clicking is fun. Following build orders not.
>>737690768you saying it's strategically worse doesn't make it so.
>>737690827Clicking to do things that matter is fun.Clicking to do things that are an attention tax is not, and instantly ruins a game. Manual injects is one of the worst offenders but not the only one.Build orders are mega gay.
>>737690768>skillshots are less strategic than point and click abilitywhat the actual fuck am I reading, what the fuck happened to your brain bro
>>737690918every RTS has build orders, it's basically training wheels for people who don't understand the game at a deep level
>>737690074just letting people know that spellforce 3 is great, but the other spellforce games are also great and feel super unique, even the 1styou could totally play the 1st and not feel like it's old and sloppy dogshit
>>737690957pros follow build orders
>>737690950Deemphasizing macro play in favor of micro is making a game less strategic.
>>737690995sorta, usually one pro comes up with something sick and people copy it
>>737690957>it's just how things areNo, it's how they've been, cars used to need ignition and combustible fuel to drive around, guess what?Things can change, and build orders aren't something people want to learn, you can be mad about it all you want but that doesn't change anything
>>737658627define "true potential?" For me, having an active modding scene and watching those web video shorts featuring my favorite rts franchise that is good enough for me lol>>737690613I thought their kane was both aleks and domovoy, and their scrin is veti.
>>737690957Not in the way you think they do.
>>737691025even making cereal has a build order, man, as long as there's a sequence of events you have a build order
>>737690918Then don't do the things that don't matter. Now you have more attention to spare.
>>737691007>it's one or the other?why would skillshots remove any macro concepts in any way shape or form?the only, the ONE, single, argument I could give you is being able to queue up casting a spell on a specific unit so that you don't have to do it in the moment (since trying to do that with a skill shot is not going to end well), but even that's reserved for only a very select few people able to pull it off, so what the fuck are you saying bro
>>737691038>I thought their kane was both aleks and domovoy, and their scrin is veti.the character's in tempest aren't as charismatic as kane is what I meant, also veti are bit different to scrin they're more human-but-not-human
>>737658627>What do you think the genre needs to realize it's true potential?this is what ruins the genre and why all new RTS games suck balls. because the developers think they need to keep fixing shit that isn't broken and "redefining" the genre, 20 years ago RTS games were perfect and didn't need anything more besides additional content.
>>737691072Because you have moved the thought process to something else that has nothing to do with strategy.
>>737691052Even with cereals you're wrong, because some people put the milk first and some put the milk last, and then some don't even use milk, and some use yoghurt or whatever the fuck, so, no
>>737691120those are all just different build orders
>>737691110maybe you should play chess
>>737691120But that's just their build order.Some might be inefficient. Some might be off-meta. They're still build orders.
>>737691120>retard hates build orders but doesn't know what they are
>>737691145No, because opening practice to get gud is extremely shit. If I was going to study anything it'd be shogi.
>>737691136>>737691161>circular argumentThe point is that people don't want it to matter, if your point is 'well there's a build order so everyone needs to learn the best one', then my point is 'shut the fuck up retard, most people don't care to learn it', it's that simpleThis is akin to having to follow an excel sheet in your ARPG of choice, nobody wants to deal with that shit, it's that simple, you can be mad about it and you can screech about it, you can claim 'it's impossible not to do that', and to that I'll say 'that's precisely why RTS as a genre is dead'That's all I'll add to this retarded conversation
>>737691253>well there's a build order so everyone needs to learn the best onethat's not my point and in a good rts there's no such thing as "the best build order", the available viable builds constantly evolve
>>737691253How do you know what the best build order is?
>>737691253>I'll say 'that's precisely why RTS as a genre is dead'Well it is then unfortunate for you that the RTS genre is not dead.So you're wrong on both points.
gacha autobattler RTSsimple as
>>737691305In a good RTS build orders stop mattering almost immediately and require no effort or practice to execute.
>>737691253You have clearly never played a RTS competitively.
>>737689034>>What did the celts do of note>made it out of the stone age for starterstheir progeny went on to assimilate with romans and later the franks, and embody the culture that created europe as we know it. all the architecture, literature, and historical legacy of western europe is heavily influenced by the celts, most people just don't know why that is the case because there is no common understanding of history whatsoever
>>737691456Name one (1).
>>737667484>are there any RTS that automate the mundane tasksisn't that just what RTT games are, RTS games with buildorder and economy shit stripped out?
>>737691505Beyond All Reason.
>want to play some RTS>maybe C&C collection on Steam?>remember that it still require EA application that runs in background>maybe Age of Empires?>Arxan Anti-Tamper included, next to zero info online if it's just as harmful as Denuvo>gets back to DoW Dark Crusade campaign. Again.I hate myself.
>>737691564>Failed on the first hurdle
I'm sorry, but England WILL be going home.
>>737691564XDDDD
>>737691505>put down spawn near metal>queue mexes>queue energy intermittently, which kind of energy is dependent on map/risk averseness>queue factory>queue some more energy>guard factory to build units faster>immediate branch based on whether you want rushing, balance, or greed>everything past that point is a fucking free for allThe first point which you need to click during active play is at some point during step 4 to queue the units you want to build.
>>737691083>not charismaticthey should have more missions to flesh both of those characters out. If I remember the dynasty campaign, it would be real great for them to interact in the field, I'd like to compare and contrast them in relation to the soviets from world in conflict - Vladimir Orlovsky and Nikolai Malashenko, vastly superior characterization and charisma regarding their scenes alone and with each other. I think Domovoy doing "the behind-the-scenes shadow leadership" feels too detached, sure, he's powerful, but I agree with you, not as charismatic. dynasty still cool-looking.>they're more human-but-not-humanI remembered in one of the guides they're based off of an evil masari, along with the golden ancient human motif. Also, kinda bummed I can't capture or use Veti tech in the campaigns post-dlc. Even for lore impacting gameplay reasons, if a nod or gdi engineer can capture scrin tech, the dynasty and gdf should be able to take over veti tech easily for rule of cool reasons.
RTS died because of the same reason Arena FPS died, the skill gap is too high
>>737691601Please tell me you haven't been playing the game without knowing you can queue actions before the game starts.
>>737691795But skill gap depends on the players, not the game. Arena fps was popular, there was no problem finding opponents of your level, but players still fled when new type games started emerging.
>>737691564>>737691456I think the bee in your bonnet is just starcraft fags, when a new player asks "how do I deal with this?" and the response ends up being "just do this build order and practise it" which leads to players burning out, not learning the game at all or developing their own style and preferences which is mega gay no doubt, but that's not the fault of build orders as a concept
>>737691863That's not just Starcraft that's also AoE and Warcraft and C&C.
>>737691724>>737691835Turns out you really don't understand what a build order even is.Well that's just hilarious.Guess we're not going to achieve anything from this conversation. You're simply too retarded.
>>737691756veti campaign is coming in the future, I could believe you'll be able to steal their stuff at some point but who knows
>>737691863>>737691905It's any RTS.Someone pumped out military units while you were busy building your economy? Shucks champ. That's a build-order loss and the way to avoid that is to not be as greedy or scout it.
>>737691795>rts deadhow is it dead in the sense like not as popular anymore? or conversely, how is it dead in the sense that it is as in lost technology?
>>737691905I think the motivation is to get someone playing stairway to heaven ASAP to hopefully get them to find the joy of playing before you bog them down with 300 books of music theory, unfortunately playing one song is not very fun
>>737692006fortnite, roblox, LoL and whatever the top 3 games on steam currently are is the bar for alive game, sc2 has been a dead game since 2012
>>737691915Does it stop mattering? Yes, at step 7 less than a minute into a game.Does it take any skill to execute? No, it's queued before the match starts.Is that a build order? Yes, and it's the standard build order for most matches. Sometimes people do different ones but they also take no skill to execute.
>>737692016And if someone tells you they think playing guitar sucks because they don't like moving their arm to play, the rational response isn't to call them a casual faggot who hates music it's to hook them up with an instrument they can play without moving their arm.
>>737692121also worth mentioning that the most popular game type in BAR atm is big multiplayer games with like 8/16/300 players which gives you a lot of breathing room to goof off
>>737692003Nope.
>>737692267Stay in your lane barfag.You don't even know what a buildorder is.
>>737689061I liked how Emperor: Battle for Dune did the campaign. You have overall map split into zones between 3 factions where each advances in turn-based fashion. During the battle you will get unit reinforcements from adjacent friendly zones, so planning out a few turns ahead might prove useful, but you also could rush forth into the enemy stronghold to end it early if you're feeling confident. Most maps have side objectives that can give you access to sub-factions, like escorting a unit or destroying a second enemy base in given time. And there are unique missions for each faction outside the map.It's a big shame that nobody really did anything like that. Sub-factions alone are pretty much a unique feature for that game I think. It just shows how much potential the genre has that nobody really cares to explore.
>>737692308I do not care what definition you invented in your head, there is an actual definition that exists independent of you.
>>737692398Then perhaps you would do well to learn it.
>>737691924cool. looking forward to it. In all honestly, game feels too incomplete without a veti campaign. I was floored with bliss when I was able to unlock the scrin campaign after beating both nod and gdi in tibwars. Hope that can be done the same with tempest rising. Man, hope I can check out more of their unit models, they're hella cool to draw, lol.>>737692061>popularity means there are active souls playing the gameNice, at least rts isn't lost technology yet lol.
>>737692452>A build order is a specific series of steps that one takes in the early game to achieve a specific strategy.
>>737692490yeah same I wish the campaign(s) were a little longer, they had to cut down some missions due to delays, hopefully with veti it will feel pretty complete
>>737692542Thanks for proving my point.
>>737692006yes bro I know it's not 100% dead, some people even play Quake stillbut in the 2000's Warcraft 3 was one of the hottest games
>>737691863>and the response ends up being "just do this build order and practise it" which leads to players burning outWhich is never the case unless they're asking specifically for a build order. A sc1/sc2 game is way too complex to just reduce every noob question to uhhh...do the build order.Build orders only last the first 4 mins or so and you must immediatly react to what your opponent is doing so "just do the build order" doesn't work.
>>737692736If your point is that you're the one who doesn't know what a build order is, sure.
>>737692913routinely I've seen people ask "how do I beat carrier" and the response comes back "make more unit" or "your macro sucks" which isn't helpful and the player already knows they need to improve those things
>>737690820>Your starcraft 2 zerg days are over, it'sThere can be some nuance between gook clicker and your shit idea.
>>737692913It's not thoughLegitimately the best advice you can give a noob who wants to get better at the game is to familiarize yourself with the units and then practice a macro heavy build order until you can execute the early steps perfectly, then play it over and over and over until the macro sinks in. It doesn't matter if he eats shit and dies in the midgame from doing it because he couldn't adapt on the fly, that's not the point of doing it, the point of doing it is to make the most important game skills second nature.
Are there any fun scifi RTS lately? Zero interest in multiplayer just want a cool campaign where you can upgrade stuff.
>>737693019Go ahead, tell me how to fix it then
>>737692914>actually it's not a build order because hurr de hurr hurrAstute arguments as always from your low IQ mongrels.
>>737692994and what would be helpful?
>>737661202these devs are retarded
>>737693105If you want to argue with the liquipedia definition go ahead, but that'd make you the retard.
>>737693041>campaigneternal waiting roomstormgate diednu homeworld was weirdzerospace isn't out yet>>737693124unit compositions that deal with carriersmicro tricks for fighting carriersetc etc
>>737693131Makes sense to me.
>>737693159You're the one trying to redefine it dumbass.Your argument is that it's not a build-order because it can be pre-made.Kill yourself.
>>737693131Who are the devs behind it?
>>737693215>unit compositions that deal with carriers>micro tricks for fighting carriers>etc etcall extremely common advice that is handed out like candy
>>737693224You are inventing an argument I not only never said but said the exact opposite of, in order to get autistically mad at it. I hope you cause yourself to stroke out.
>>737693271when it comes to new players I mostly see the macro advice, you don't see people offering real advice until you hit masters
>Mech shitI shan't play your game. Get a more inspired and less generic setting.
>>737693215>unit compositions that deal with carriers>micro tricks for fighting carriersWrong answer, because the right one is 'don't let them get built'. Which goes back to 'make more unit' or 'your macro sucks'. It's an execution issue not a knowledge issue, knowing how to counter carriers mechanically is piss fucking easy.
>>737693407there's safe builds that get carriers out comfortably
>>737693310Your argument was laid out here >>737691456And you've tried to redefine it ever since.>th-that wasn't meDon't care. Stop replying then.
>>/vst/Go back to your containment board
>>737693393Would you like a WW2 RTS where the war didn't end in 1945? It doesn't have mechs...it has WALKERS
>>737693317How would they know your rank? This information is given anywhere bw/sc2 is discussed. Stop lying.
>>737693464I thought that was a WW1 game>>737693478there are people in this thread who are artefacts of the exact phenomenon I'm describing
>>737693464I've played it and it was mid from what I recall.
>>737680914top is Starcraft GookclickBottom is AOE2DE and every other rts, including Battlezone 1 and 2
>>737693452Does that look like I said that's not a build order?
>why come people don't explain at length how to deal with X Y or Z unit???Because most of the time it's a literal skill issue. Your macro sucked and so you couldn't build the units that countered his shit in sufficient numbers.You accidently your entire army into him and that's what killed you - not X Y or Z unit.You forgot to actually build the units.You started building the units too late.You went too heavy on the eco.The advice is cookie-cutter because there are too many parameters and more often than not whoever is complaining about X Y or Z unit is omitting crucial details like "I'm low bronze" from the equation.
Are Terran players simply retarded? How do they lose with the most OP early/mid game units (Vulture and Siege Tank)? Literally nothing can counter these units if made at the earliest possible time.
>>737693218It's like saying that steering wheel is what makes the car move. Disguise is a mostly cosmetic feature, and UI does not "see" the game the way player does, game logic doesn't care about how a unit looks, it knows perfectly who it belongs to at all times.
>>737693653I don't disagree with this, but it helps people move past mental road blocks to have a plan for specific situations
>>737680914The chad option only works if mechanical skill and APM are a factor. Otherwise it just boils down into following the best moves. Imagine football where you cannot outrun or trick your opponents, instead you just choose where to move and if the choice was suboptimal you lose.
>>737693795The purpose of AA and ZK was to have a game supported by the strongest UI within reasonable means. Their argument makes sense, a player using that would catch spies every time.
>>737693913So let them catch spies every time.You'd think the same would manifest in Starcraft 2 and yet it doesn't.
>>737693215>unit compositions that deal with carriersaka macro to build said units to deal with carriers>micro tricks for fighting carriersright click the enemy when you have the units that can actually deal with themunless youre betting on having specific spellcasters who have their own energy costs / investments which require macro
>>737692592Nice. Hope it's latest and last update would include modding support for that potentially allegedly limitless replayability.>>737692749It sure was, right now it's better to judge the appreciators by their quality over quantity atp. Hope I still get to watch RTS new game news channels 5, even 10, years from now haha!
>>737693979Then you have a game with a useless unit. SC2's UI is infinitely weaker than Zero-K's and the pace of the game is much faster, a unit CAN slip in just from you not having the actions to catch it happening. That doesn't happen in ZK.
>>737693913Pretty sure spies in RA2 were equally easy to spot by a player. The point is that other units would normally ignore the it and let it pass unbothered so you have to pinpoint it manually.
>>737693993nah the units you make to deal with a ground protoss army is what you'll most likely be making, to deal with carriers you have to deviate, no one is making mass viking/corruptor unless carriers are coming and in BW the amount of goliaths you make is drastically different depending on if they're shuttle or carrieralso in sc2 vikings can kite carriers really well which requires micro, you don't just a-move
>>737694130No, not even remotely to the same degree. RA2 doesn't have strategic zoom, spies can't be defeated in all of 1 second by you zooming out and box selecting your base then noticing a unit wasn't selected.
>>737694118>That doesn't happen in ZK.Why not?Unless this supposed Strong and Robust™ UI literally plays the game for you a spy-like unit would be able to perform its duties due to player-attention being elsewhere.
>>737683703We need devs to go back to this thenhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcd0jkHT9BYIn fact i wish someone could decompile the xbox 360 arcade remaster release and port widescreen back to pc
>>737689896>all rts would be a e-slop gooclick hellthey did and RTS died blizzdroneYou fags doesnt play rts games, you fags wants to play starcraft only
>>737694276I wish dark reign 2 wasn't just a sick OST
>>737694373>they didnope
Remove fog of warMake it less tedious to playMake games 10 minutes long maximumSingleplayer focus
>>737694275Because, the way you think they should be implemented, they can be countered in under a second by a player doing the obvious thing. In a game where the pacing isn't on crack and you have plenty of seconds to spare at any given time, have a large scale view of the map, and so on.This leaves you adjusting the unit. Are spies potent enough to make up for this? Now you've incentivized unfun gameplay where players intermittently check their own base for spies when the point of the game is minimizing checks like this. Are they not? Now there's a bad unit in the roster.
>>737694240That's fair I guess. I don't really know how that game operates but that quote had some really poor wording, UI isn't directly responsible for unit control.Also, spies in RA2 are automatically countered by dogs so there could be different ways to implement this feature.
>>737694240>[spy-like unit can] be defeated in all of 1 second by you zooming out and box selecting your base then noticing a unit wasn't selectedSo you need to divert attention to spot the odd one out. You need to keep this in mind and perform this little prop-hunt at odd intervals. This saps your focus even if it's there or not. The spy works.
>>737688424Homeworld was the best of them, the ability to steal units combined with carrying them forward AND carrying forward finite resources was amazing.
>>737694596>Now you've incentivized unfun gameplay where players intermittently check their own base for spies when the point of the game is minimizing checks like this. Are they not?Oh my mistake. I didn't know the point was that spies are not fun to deal with.The original post seemed to imply that spies would be easy to spot and thus wouldn't be able to perform their function due to a Strong™ UI.
>>737694702Zero-K is literally the worst game to apply that logic to because it categorically rejects APM taxes.
>>737694874>it categorically rejects APM taxesNot possible unless the game literally plays itself.
>>737694763It's both. It's not 'spies are bad game design in RA2' it's 'spies do not work with our game's design on a UI level or a fun level'.
>>737694962the game literally plays itself*
>>737691253There will always be things that you need to do in a certain order, and there will always be more or less efficient options. That's how RTS function, you cant have one that doesnt have build orders, even if people haven't mathed them out in a given title.
>>737692542Anon, a build order is the order in which you build things.The better you are, the more specific the timing can be due to consistency, but thats literally all it is.
>>737694962This is the game that has units that can auto skirmish to dodge enemy fire and behave rationally on their own, has unit quotas to rebuild if you run under a certain amount, infinite queues with complex factory rally actions, and like 20 different unit state commands. If there was ever an RTS you could try to accuse of playing itself it's Zero-K.
>>737689061More like embrace a Risk-style campaign combined with SCII non-linear take on mission select and campaign progress.Those and add the whole plays differently every time.>>737694276Why make a remaster if you put it only on XBOX360 of all things?
>>737695080>that's just how it is and there's no way to change itYou're a brainlet and you need to expand your mind, you think exactly how people thought of the sky before we invented planes 'BRO WE'RE NOT BIRDS WE CAN FLY LOOOOL'You lose the argument by simply removing the concept of time during the build phase, if you don't have a schedule that you need to meet to be efficient, your idea of 'build order' goes out the window>b-b-b-but I don't like itI don't give a fuck, stay on topic and read the rest of my posts, I don't care about your redditor "uhm ackshually it's technically still a build order XD'Fuck off
>>737691579>>>remember that it still require EA application that runs in backgroundBut Anon, it doesn't do that
>>737695080Not only is that not true, it doesn't mean RTS will always boil down to practiced openings like you're playing chess.
>>737694142The bigger problem here is that the answer to>how do I beat carriers in BWis>kill them before they have enough carriers to stop youIf you are asking how you might be able tl win anyway, its just>build things that shoot up and target them when you canSure, you can get more specific or talk about running them out of minerals, but without a specific VOD and knowing exactly how you ended up against carriers its impossible to answer.
>>737695280>build phaseSo you dont want RTS, but RTT. Which is fine, but not the same genre
>>737695389it's definitely a more complicated answer in BW specifically
>>737670984me on right
>>737695354RTS very rarely comes down to build order wins, and when they do its usually an all-in or vulnerable of detected cheese, which are both strategic decisions that lose to proper scouting and counterplay.
>>737695354>it doesn't mean RTS will always boil down to practiced openingsIt never has
>>737694962>>it categorically rejects APM taxes>Not possible unless the game literally plays itselfnon-sequiturplaying the game is not an APM tax, having to constantly queen inject or chrono boost or mule drop is an APM taxShit that could easily be automated by the game but isn't, whether intentionally or incompetently not, is an APM tax. TA likes have the exact opposite of APM taxes, they actively give enough controls so that you can reduce building dozens of structures to singular clicks. Want to drop 2 dozen mexes? Here's a circle tool that you just scale up to cover all the metal zones in an area and your builders will automatically pick the most efficient path to build them. Set up repeating build queues that take into account the patrol routes of the previously built units. Hell, some units do automatically micro themselves to dodge shots. The entire point of that style of strategy is that every single action is a meaningful one instead of having to click 400 times a second just to get all your workers mining and dragoons down a ramp
>>737695548I should have probably put 'having' before 'practiced openings', the intent wasn't to say that they're 100% build order. But there's a large stretch of lower skill play where it basically is build order.
>>737695280The order in which things are made is literally a build order, and no game that involves resources, time and the building of things won't have build orders.Any game that doesnt involve all 3 isnt an rts.
>>737695280and this no time build phase has a resource restriction of some kind? then there will be a build meta
do we need more tug-of-war games?
>>737695080>There will always be things that you need to do in a certain orderYes and shitty gookclicks like SC2 have the game be decided before that order is even concluded. A basic marine/medivac timing push will cover 95% of a match and the remaining percent is just sending the units in, it effectively removes all strategy
>>737695609I understand your grievances against Starcraft, but it sounds to me like you're missing my point entirely.I doubt that you're able to keep track of everything going on in the game at all times. Surely it is still at its core an RTS.So why wouldn't a spy unit be able to perform its function?
>>737695738control and execution always matter and you can outplay an opponent with a better build order
>the eternal bronze players are coming out of the woodworkDamn shame.
>>737695475No, because RTT isn't playing in real time and RTT completely removes the base building aspect more often than not, not that it matters, I don't 'want' anything, I'm simply partaking in the discussion about what the RTS genre needs to move towards to gain appeal before it just completely dies with our generationThis argument is precisely why the RTS genre is dying, RTS fags are way too stuck in their ways because they can't think of anything past 'efficiency', but when you try to change or remove a concept their brains blow a fuse and all of a sudden it's all 'hurrr this can't happen, that can't work'But it doesn't matter, at the end of the day I'll be proven right because some game will provide exactly what I'm talking about and you'll be left scratching your head and/or screeching on here going 'omg not real RTS, stop shilling it, fake game, no skill expression' etc etc>>737695694What's the 'build meta' for mechabellum?Right, there's none, sure some units are stronger in some patches and worse in others, but you're still left with options and you have to directly adapt to what the opponent is doing, thinking in terms of 'build orders' isn't going to lead you anywhere>but mechabellum isn't an RTSI never said it was, but something in between an RTS and mechabellum would be one and would serve the same purpose, again, see my point above about needing to expand your mind and get out of that box you forced yourself into when you learned to play SC2 when you were 12
>>737695821because you can see the entire map and all units will be traveling one direction from your factories except for that one blip
>>737695871>but you're still left with options and you have to directly adapt to what the opponent is doingSounds like StarCraft.
>>737695738You only say that because you don't play.In most RTS, a build order is used to try and gain a specific advantage that you then leverage to a win. Build orders are meant to give you an angle at which you have some way to overcome your opponent, whether thats via a specific unit, positioning or timing.In a game of 100% equal skill, the decision of which strategy to employ, and which build order gets you to a place in which you implement that strategy, the build order can have a large impact. Most games are not 100% equal in skill between players.
>>737695871>What's the 'build meta' for mechabellum?there's a meta but you don't build stuff and the units you get to choose are randomisedI guess you could have randomised units available to build in a regular rts
>>737695904Oh you have maphack too? Yeah I guess deceptive play is impossible then.
>>737695923Yeah and it sounds like cs go as well, what's your point?
>>737695871You haven't actually given a single idea outside of>turn it into a different genreGuess what, people agree with you. Thats why ASSFAGGOTS, RTT and Total War games exist.They arent RTS, but they all are branch genres that share a common RTS ancestor.
>>737696008have you seen zeroK/BAR/supcom before? you can scroll zoom all the way out
>>737695904>>737696008Also the point of a spy-unit would be redundant if you already have complete map vision.
>>737696069there are invisible units, but not spy-disguised-as-friendly units
>>737696056I thought it would work similar to SupCom. SupCom has fog of war and takes its intel-gathering serious.I thought zero-K would be the same, but if you have full map vision then yeah the point of a unit that gathers intel via deception is completely unneeded.
>>737696008You can make the game look like this in a split second. That's the piece you're missing.
>>737696158>you can even see the enemies income as wellOh it's worse than I thought.
>>737696203No, that's someone casting a match. ZK has fog of war.
>>737696237>ZK has fog of warThen why did this guy state that it doesn't? >>737695904
>>737696296I just didn't communicate properly
>>737696329I forgive you, but then my point which I stated here >>737695821 remains unanswered.
>>737696000>you don't build stuff, you just buy them with resourcesNobody cares about the literal act of building, baka-kun, I'm talking in terms of concepts here, conceptually it's the same thing, you get resources by doing X, you buy units and/or unit makers with that resource, it's literally the same thing except that you don't see a villager hitting something with a hammer in between.I don't think randomization is a good idea though, maybe for a single player game but this is a thing that a lot of people disliked about mechabellum and understandably so.Rather, I'm mostly talking of the rock paper scissor mentality, which has always been a thing, in AOE archers kill infanty, infantry kills cavalry, cavalry kills archers, etc etc (ofc with some variations here and there), war 3 perfected it even more by adding asymmetric races, but you could have all of this and still completely change or remove other concepts that are, so far, intrinsically linked to the RTS genre.>>737696043>But semanticsDoesn't matter, nobody's ever going to agree with you or anyone else on anything related to genre naming, things change and people call things the way they want to call them and there's nothing you can do about it, the roguelike/roguelite/metroidvania debacle proves that point, you'll screech that it's not RTS anymore, and I'll shrug it off and still tag it RTS on steam, sorry not sorry
>>737695871redditbellum the shitty auto battler isn't blowing anyone's minds here. I'd rather RTS be exactly where it is right now (BAR is awesome) then turn into that casual garbage.
>>737696382In theory you could make one work. But they rely on the UI not communicating things it is supposed to communicate to you, in a game where the UI is designed to be maximally powerful. It's at odds with how the game is designed.
>>737696465Not relevant to the discussion, unsure why you felt the need to waste your time replying
>>737696449People dont usually call all the offshoots of RTS, RTS. Your insistence that RTS can only live by being something else only shows that you dislike RTS, or at least believe that most people do.
>>737696578move along shitter stay out of RTS threads
>>737696449>Rather, I'm mostly talking of the rock paper scissor mentalityWhich does not exist in RTS
>>737696517Well I feel we're going in circles.The UI communicating or not communicating the presence of a spy still requires the player to actively watch for it, which is the same concept as changeling (sc2) or spy (RA2). These units are not uniquely difficult to spot in either games, but they do require a certain level of attention. Which is really all that is required for the unit to function in that role. As explained previously.
>>737696697there are definitely RTS with rock paper scissors elements
>>737696449For the record, I personally think the next big evolution of RTS will be commanding AI units instead of controlling them directly. Even just extraploating current implementation to include voice commands would be a start, but long term I foresee telling your fighter wing to screen your ship and that your bombers should launch after the initial dogfight, all without any direct control of units.
>>737695941Not him but I absolutely played an RTS where different factories were RPS against each other and you had to commit into an RPS decision before you could build so much as a scout. It was fucking horrible and I ate shit at the start of a match so many times just from picking wrong.
>>737696754You think there is.
>>737696793yeah that's why I said it
>>737696778very vague thank you
>>737696778That's fair, I should clarify good RTS and skilled players. Poor players can be unable to overcome even small advantages due to lack of skill and bad RTS can feature poor design in which scouting isnt useful or is impossible.
>>737696829ya it's funny
>>737696793The very basic unit design of AoE is intentionally RPS. Im not even saying its a bad thing, but its a core feature.
>>737696951You can see the opponents units
>>737696978why are you shitposting my man
>>737696589>least believe that most people doYou don't?What makes you think people like RTS?The way I see it, there's three types of people; the people that think RTS is cool but never played one and will never play one because it's too much work, the people that are old enough to have had to play one and disliked them, and then RTS fags which are still in denial that their genre can be popular again and that their new games never popping off is always something unrelated and there's always a new excuse for them.>>737696697You never played a RTS in your life if you think that, get bent faggot.>>737696759I agree with you, I think it's either going to go the 'pawn' route (like you'd see in dragon's dogma or in FF12, aka you set a ruleset on a per unit basis and tell them 'okay when this happens you do X and you target X in priority' etc etc) Or it'll be stupid AI that you can somehow affect during the battle phase but only so slightly (like you see in mount & blade for example, except that you wouldn't be able to precisely tell them to do X and Y but instead give general orders like 'archers retreat' and 'cavalry flank and charge' or something) It just needs to replace the current constant micro that's required in most of the games with a bigger focus on the macro aspect of the battleThe voice command shit was tried with tom clancy's end war btw (tho it was kinda shit, and I couldn't speak english that well back then), unsure how english speakers felt about it in general but seeing as I never ever see anyone mentioning it on here, I'm thinking it was garbage to everyone else too
It's insane how 95% of RTS made so far lack the basic shit required to be enjoyable in the long term. You can count the RTS that are worth getting into nowadays on your fingers.
>>737697007RPS is a blind guess. AoE is not.
>>737697016>You never played a RTS in your life if you think thatOk autobattler fan who wants basebuilding removed from RTS.
>>737697138>stupid autistic niggerismshut the fuck up faggot, everyone knows what people mean when they talk about a RPS systemand even then, you're still wrong because fog of war is a thing 'hurr but you can scout', you can, but it's still unknown you retard
>>737697246Yes scouting ruins your RPS argument.
>>737697016Voice commands historically arent worth implementing due to the technology not being there. Thats true for everything, not just RTS, even shit like Hey You Pikachu! suffered from it not just working. Voice detection has vastly improved, and the LLMs are fairly good at both intaking speech, but also translating it to a usable form. It isnt perfect, and a game made now probably wouldnt work out, but its a progressing technology. It will, almost assuredly, reach a point where an AI can interpret any language into commands that function within a game engine for even complex commands.
>>737697292You are intentionally misunderstanding common genre terminology.
We need a Snowbreak RTS.Bam, 6 gorillons newcomers into the genre.
>>737697382anyone who says rock paper scissors if one unit is weak to another is an idiot
>>737688354late but I'm sure anon is just glazing Zero-K againrightfully so
>>737697583It isnt just being strong or weak, but the implementation of the interaction.It isnt RPS just because a unit is ranged, or cant hit up, or is invisible.Its RPS when a unit does drastically increased or reduced damage to specific other units.
>>737697307I don't see it personally, because it's just too slow.Voice commands work for some things, and not for others, I'll use elite dangerous as an example; I can ask it specific information about a stellar system I plan to visit or news about the current community event going or something while I fly around, this is fine, that's like telling gemini to play a specific song when you drive around your car; but when I want to land somewhere, deploy landing gear, activate jump drive, doesn't matter; it's slow as fuck because I can do it in the press of a button, rather than speaking the words and then waiting for the computer to figure it out.Now imagine when putting it into practice for a genre of game like an RTS where you're required to have an APM over 100 in the first place; how would voice ever work here?You could limit it, you could make it so that people HAVE to use voice to give specific commands that are impossible to give otherwise; but then people are just going to be like 'what the fuck just lemme press a button for it'.It's a cool sounding gimmick, and it could be cool if like you played a mount & blade game in VR or something and you could get to shout your orders, that's cool as fuck, but competitive?Fuck no.
>>737697683The idea would be (boring in that specific case) that you tell your ship to land, as you would be the captain and not the pilot.Picard doesnt tell his crew HOW to perform their tasks (usually) but rather when to do so.Its a distillation of the genre to be literal to its name, responding to ongoing real time action and deciding on strategy, but removing the mechanical act of direct control.Im not advocating for this specific setup for all RTS, but i think smaller forms of it will spread through the genre after one successful title.
