>Genuinely love System Shock 2 and Deus Ex>Don't really like or care for Thief 1 or 2>All four are considered part of the same fake genrePlease explain to me why fucking stealth games are like two FPSes I consider to be the GOATs.
>>737740378Yeah I guess but let's break it down hereWhat characteristics should a certain Vidya have to make it be an "immersive sim"
>>737740378Deus Ex is GOATed but System Slop was trash
>>737740487t. bad at System Shock 2My guy, you are bad at a game where you can save literally anywhere
>>737740485No one has ever come up with a good definition of am imsim since people start pushing it as a genre. There is always some example game that fits the description perfectly but makes the poster to NYEEEHH
>>737740652there's no description that isn't fucking retarded and meaningless or completely ignores patient zero of this cancer that defined it as essentially an FPS RPG that has nothing to do with Thief
>>737740378>every person who likes rpgs MUST like every rpg in existanceYou are too retarded for imsims
>>737740378it's not a genre it's a design philosophy blah blah this bait is getting so tiresome
>>737740378>Don't really like or care for Thief 1 or 2What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little taffer?
>>737741214It's a bit too difficult compared to something like Dishonored.
>immersive simulationI'm too retarded to understand what this is as a genre.
>>737740485The defining feature of immersive sims is being able to pick up almost all small objects, with square, bracket, or corner elements on the HUD to show what object is currently targeted.
>>737740378I recently realized I dislike pure RPG imsims like SS2 or Prey and prefer imsim-adjacent, gear-progression oriented FPS like SS1 or Stalker
>>737741256You and I are opposites.
>>737741335Which Stalker is your favorite?
>>737741440Shadow of Chernobyl, to be honest I played the games more than a decade ago
>>7377412611. It's not a genre, it's a design philosophy.2. It's a design philosophy that stresses immersion through simulations. It's a philosophy all about systemicity, consistency and emergence. You get a whole bunch of systems like guns, melee weapons, explosions, light, sound, doors, crates and so on and make them all interact with each other, allowing you to get through levels or pass missions in unintended ways. Think obstacles (which have multiple solutions), not puzzles (which only have one solution). Games that aren't imsims are starting to dabble more with simulating systems in the past decade, which blurs the lines a little.>Why is the name so shitNobody has come up with a better name.>But seriously the name is so shitYes we know, people have said this for almost 30 years.>So is Hitman an imsimClose, but no. There's still scripted kills in there.>What about BOTW/The Elder ScrollsThough you can dick around a lot in those games, they typically don't let you solve obstacles in multiple ways.>Bioshock-Fuck no.
>>737741591Why are System Shock 1 and 2 immsims but Bioshock isn't?
>>737740378Haven't played Thief except that shitty 2014 reboot i never bothered to finish. But what i consider to be a core immersive sim principle is world interaction. The most basic thing in this is having open levels you can tackle in different ways. In the more RPG focused imm sims (Prey, SS2 and Dude Sex) it's also how you interact with things inside the world depending on what you speced into. Alchohol in System shock 2 is a basic but good example of what i mean. If you're just going for a gun guy alchohol is no different than any other food item, but if you go for a PSY build you actualy have to think about it's usage as you lose psy points after drinking it.
>>737741537Shadow of Chernobyl is also my favorite, I replayed the games a couple years ago and although I also like Call of Pripyat, there's a lot less danger in the levels and progression is too easy.One example, in SoC you got bandits, mercenaries, military, and monolith all wanting a piece of your ass from the get go, while in CoP you can play the entire game with everyone neutral until you see monolith in Pripyat.
>>737741741This is obviously heavily dependent on who you ask, but I don't consider Bioshock an imsim simply because there's barely any ways to actually interact with the world, and what little is there is heavily scripted. The series only got more dumbed down over time to the point Infinite barely resembles System Shock in any way.
>>737740487System Shock 1 is outright better than Doom and I will die on that hill.
>>737740378>imsimGo the fuck back to youtube, you stupid pretentious faggy zoomer
>>737740378They aren't. SS2 and Deus Ex are both shooters. Thief 1 and 2 are adventure games.
>>737741741>Why are System Shock 1 and 2 immsims but Bioshock isn't?*pauses your game world*
>>737740378>imsimWhat a cringey gay word
>>737741880it's been a term since the 90s retard
>>737741820That's a hill? I thought it was just common knowledge.
>>737741895>*pauses your game world*system shock 1 did the same thing with cyberspace hacking
>>737741925Immersive sim has. Not fucking imsim. That shit was used by faggot youtuber essayists which then was popularized by try hard zoomers. It's fucking embarrassing every time I hear someone use that word.
>>737741953I wasn't that poster and I like SS2 more than SS1. SS2 never pauses the game world while hacking or playing the minigame cartridges
>>737741741System shock 1 isn't an immersive sim but it did lay down the groundworks for the phylosophy's future. Bioshock is not an immersive sim because every playthrough is nearly identical and the level design is much more linear than the Shock games. Every playthrough is identical because instead of having an inventory like SS2 you can carry everything you want with some gay ass item/ammo caps. You can't really have a specific plasmid or fire arm build since both upgrade systems work separately.
>>737741925>zoomer pretends to know what was and wasn't a term in the 90slmao
>>737741895So is Bio 2 an imm sim?
>>737742074>faggot pretending not to be a zoomer calls other people zoomers
>>737740378>tfw the exact opposite>love Thief 1/2 and can't get into dudesex and SSI am at my 5th attempts of trying not to give up on my playthrough of dudesex.it took me 3 attempts to start stalker SoC but when it clicks I marathoned the game in 2 days, I was hoping for a moment like that for deus ex
>>737742094I generally think Bioshock 2 is a big improvement over 1 and think it trends more towards imsim than not.
>>737742109I'm the same.Every time I play it I lose interest around chinatown.System Shock is crack to me though
>>737742109But do you consider Thief 1 and 2 to be stealth games first and foremost?
>Always have a bunch of ideas for an imsim>To lazy to actually make it
>>737742109get gmdx or revision but turn off the new maps. it's just QOL stuff and bug fixes mostly.
>>737742109Deus Ex was made because Warren Spector got filtered by Thief because he kept trying to kill the guards and getting his ass kicked. The devs said "hey retard, you need to stealth" and instead of just doing that and beating the game he fucked off and made his own game where you could do anything without punishment.
>>737742191Yes, to me they are definitely not in the same genre of the 2 other insims
Why does the immersive sim genre bring in the most pretentious pseudo intellectuals in all of gaming?
>>737742281that would be MMOs
>>737742042Thief and Dishonored don't have inventory limits either, just depends on how much money you have to buy stuff.
I did not care for Prey.
>>737740378Favorite 90s games bros?>Thief>Resident Evil >Homeworld>Freespace>Diablo>Silent Hill>Fallout
>>737742157>Bioshock 2 is a big improvement over 1I'm amused this is less of a hot take now, because back in the day people were sperging out how Levine wasn't involved with it. It took until after Infinite was out for a few years for most people outside of /v/ to realize Infinite sucked ass and that Levine was a hack.
>>737741591Is Ultima and DF primordial imsims?
>>737742341Yeah i was moreso comparing the Shock games.
>>737740378If imsims weren't real then Metroid Prime 4 wouldn't be one.
>>737742830>UltimaYes.>DFHow is DF primordial in any way? Its first release was in 2006.
>>737740378>I got filtered by Thief>Now I'm mad that it's part of the same genre as Deus Ex and System ShockI hate to say skill issue but... skill issue
Zoomers really hate idea of imsims being real for some reason, i suspect they parrot some eceleb who probably said that uncs are wrong, actually or something like that.
>>737740378I don't think Thief is an Immersive Sim. It's immersive in that you have to act like a thief but that's a pretty poor rationalisation for the genre
>>737740378Immersive sim's confusing cause it has 2 different definitions. 1. Is that immersive sims refer to the old Looking Glass Studios games from the 90s (Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Thief) and games that have followed in Looking Glass's lineage (like Deus Ex, Dishonored, Prey.) If you're unfamiliar with Looking Glass they were this super influential PC game dev from the 90s who made 3D first person games at the same time Id were making the very first FPS games except LGS's games were completely different and had some features and systems that wouldn't become commonplace until 10, sometimes even 20 years later.The OTHER definition is that it's a game that's been designed to encourage systems-driven emergent gameplay. Like for example say you come across a locked wooden door in a game and you can't be fucked finding the key so you figure, "Hey, the door's wooden, why don't I just throw a grenade at it and blow it up?" In most games that wouldn't work because that's not how doors work in vidya. In an immersive sim that will work, except now what was supposed to be a friendly NPC behind the door is now running around the room screaming cause some asshole just blew up his front door and every enemy in a block radius is now making a b-line to you because they're wondering "Wtf was the explosion?" You do see a bit of that kind of thing in other games now but keep in mind Looking Glass's games were doing that all the way back in 1992 in what's arguably the first 3D proper RPG ever.It gets confusing now as to what is or isn't one because Looking Glass's games were influential but they're old as fuck now. Like their games were 10-20 years ahead of their time when they came out 30 years ago. Oh and yeah, the name's shit (it should've been, I dunno, Looking Glass-like or something) but it's the one that stuck so what can you do?
Would an imsim with an internally consistent but completely alien logic work and still be considered an imsim?After all, one of main draws of such games is that you can do things that "make sense" and have them work.
>>737743298Actually Looking Glass described their own game as an immersive simulation, so Thief is more fitting of the title than all the other shit. But what they were actually doing is describing their design philosophy, not a genre. The game is obviously a stealth game.
>>737743383Isn't Cruelty squad kind of like that?
>>737743110tbf it was an internal term used at Looking Glass (and it was actually immersive REALITY rather than immersive simualtion but whatever) as well as another couple of studios that followed in Looking Glass's wake. It wasn't used by the general population at the time and didn't take off until Youtubers started making video essays about them in the mid 2010s (and said Youtubers did their usual poor job explaining/understanding it so that's just added to the confusion.)
>>737743298The actual definition was written by the Thief team dude. (I know it says immersive reality here but same difference.) Technically, going off of this Thief is more of an immersive sim than Deus Ex is.
How come nobody ever tried to make a cold war espionage imsim? I've been thinking a lot about a game like that.
>>737743372>but it's the one that stuck so what can you do?some youtubers back in the day called them "451 games" always thought that was a way better and less confusing name.
>>737742281trenchcoat-slop always attracts fedoras
>>737742743>Xcom>Blood>Duke Nukem 3D>System shock 2
>>737741261>I'm too retarded to understand what this is as a genre.So are the people who made up the term
>>737743608Nah that's unironically worse cause MOST of the old immersive sims don't even have that code. Ultima Underworld 1 and 2 don't have it, neither do the Thief games or Terra Nova. 0451 games is even MORE misleading than immersive sims (which is still a shitty name to be clear) plus it's helped lead to the misconception that System Shock started the genre (or design philosophy or whatever) and not Ultima Underworld.
>>737742281Hey, I just love Thief man.
>>737740378Just like any non-technical genre it's a list of design decisions. You don't have to include all of them to be an imsim. Some that I can think of are:- a coherent interconnected map- multiple ways to solve the obstacles the game presents- optional content- systems driven gameplay that leaves room for player ingenuity- real-time gameplay- immersive perspective, generally first person- some kind of character progression
>>737743526Devs used immersive sims as wellhttps://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/postmortem-ion-storm-s-i-deus-ex-i-https://www.witchboy.net/articles/the-future-of-game-design-moving-beyond-deus-ex-and-other-dated-paradigms/
>>737741820The initial floppy release was riddled with bugs, ran like shit on most PCs at the time, and didn't have the voice acting. The CD release a couple months later fixed some of the most outstanding bugs and added the voice acting (though it still ran at slideshow FPS for most people), but the damage was already done.
>>737743526I hate zoomers so much.>I heard this term from a youtuber so everyone else did too
>>737740485>What characteristics should a certain Vidya have to make it be an "immersive sim"Lot's of allied naval traffic to hunt.
>>737743818Oh sure, but at Looking Glass for most of the 90s it was "immersive reality" rather than immersive simulation along with a few other variations of it going all the way back to Ultima Underworld. It's just lead to some confusion because a lot of people seem to think the term was coined by Warren Spector in his Deus Ex postmortem and it wasn't.Case in point here's the last page of the manual to Ultima Underworld 2, a game form 1993. I know they're not saying immersive sim yet but they're already talking about combining RPG mechanics with simulation elements and it's pretty bang on to what the definition is today.
>>737743742I would add the criteria that the game's default state is that of non-combat. NPCs aren't arbitraily enemies to kill unless you break some rule that would logically result in a confrontation.
>>737744195eh nah. That doesn't quite work cause that excludes the System Shock games.
>>737743479If you replace the wacky textures and models with something mundane, then Cruelty Squad isn't that crazy. In fact, it has fairly intuitive in-game logic. I.e. guns shoot bullets, enemies hear gunshots and get alerted, trying to find you, you can loot weapons off killed enemies, you can stack objects to get over obstacles, etc...I mean stuff like really alien logic that you put together as you go. There's this disgustingly hip term for knowledge-gated games, metroidbrainias, where you explore the game to find hidden rules and special interactions that are always there, and only require knowledge to activate.What happens if we apply the same line of thinking for each system in the imsim pattern? Would it still be immersive?
anyone here has any hope for Thick as Thieves?
>>737744096I tend to associate simulation elements with the Ultima MMO/RPGs and Molyneux talking about god games and it confused me that it's mostly used to talk about games like Thief... so that's the connection. The devs from Ultima coined it when they made a fps kek.
>>737740378The term "immersive sim" originally comes from Ultima Underworld that was autistic about simulation elements and making it feel like what it would actually be like to be stuck in a fantasy dungeon and having to find your way out (although you could just call it a dungeon crawler RPG and you wouldn't be wrong). But when people use the term nowadays they are basically saying "game by Looking Glass Studios" or more generically talking about first person shooters with RPG elements where are there multiple ways to achieve an objective. It's really just a marketing thing
>>737743607LGS was working on one called "Deep Cover"
>>737740378Thief isn't an imsim, it's a goddamn stealth game. An insim is a game that strives to achieve a level of realism by letting you do a bit of everything. The Nomad Soul would count an imsim. If we listened to people who abuse the shit out of the word, Sly 3 would be an imsim just because you can crawl in vents.
>>737744451r e t a r d
>>737744464n i g g e r
>>737744404>The devs from Ultima coined it when they made a fps kek.Nah, not quite. Just a real quick correction but Ultima Underworld was made by an entirely new team (Looking Glass) separate from Origin. They were still kinda joined at the hip at least initially but they're different people. But yeah, it's an ancient fucking term that dates back to when Origin was still a thing and people still took Peter Molyneux seriously.
>>737744450https://www.unseen64.net/2016/04/26/deep-cover-pc-cancelled/Looks cool
>>737744451Yeah but Thief does let you do that.
>>737744451Thief is an imsim made by stealthsissies.Deus Ex is an imsim made by loudchads.It really is that simple.
BG3 is the best Imsims
>>737744545It does have a lot of imsim elements.
>>737744451are Far Cry 2-6 immersive sims? Feels like people dont wanna call them that only because they're "not as good" as "an actual immersive sims" but they let you do just about as much when it comes to infiltrating camps and outposts and shit.
>>737744616Far Cry 2 is in the grey area definitely. And it's no coincidence because the lead dev, Clint Hocking, was a massive Looking Glass/Deus Ex fanboy and publicly talked about how he took inspiration from those games. He was also the director of Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory which took several of its best cues from Thief.There's less of a case from Far Cry 3 onwards though just because those elements got a bit streamlined plus it just started turning into its own thing (well namely the open-world Ubisoft sandbox formula) but there's definitely still some influence felt through there.Also the other guy's wrong and Thief is an immersive sim but that goes without saying.
>>737744783If thief is an immersive sim why shouldn't Metal Gear Solid count too?
>>737744886No. Metal Gear Solid V there's... kinda a case for but as far as the rest of the series goes, no not really.And instead of listening to me I round a really good write-up here from Marc 'MAHK' LeBlanc one of Thief's lead designers circa 1998 - just days after Thief's release. He's the guy who programmed Thief's Object and Act/React systems (which is basically what we'd call an Entity Component System nowadays except this was about a decade before ECS became a thing in games.) So instead of listening to me here's someone who actually made the game talking about the difference between Thief and MGS.
>>737744886The Phantom Pain arguably is one.
>>737744340>What happens if we apply the same line of thinking for each system in the imsim pattern? Would it still be immersive?Yeah it would be. They are about consistent rules in a world.
I never liked the way Deus Ex nor System Shock 2 implemented their skill upgrade systems. Thief appeals to me precisely because it doesn't waste my time with that fluff.
>>737743372>The OTHER definitionIt's not a genre, and so it's not about there being properties that give you options. It's about the fact that the games were fundamentally designed from the ground up to be comprised of those systems, and the gameplay is the result of dynamic interaction between those systems.It's moderate investment for high reward because when you make your gameplay out of interacting systems, then all of the gameplay variety arises expotentially on its own as you increase the interaction. Whereas in games like VTMB, nothing is systems-based, and so all of the variety has to be manually implemented which causes a combinatorial explosion as complexity increases, and that's the reason that game falls apart halfway since the devs didn't have time to manually add the concept of player freedom, one option at a time.
>>737745224Well yeah, I never said it was. The example with the door and all the AIs reacting to it is just an example of multiple different systems interacting with one another in neat ways.
>>737744886metal gear solid is a movie game retard. its a good one but still.
>>737745003Mahk commenting on MGS made me finally understand why some people think that Metal Gear Solid is a stealth game. It came out the same year as Thief, but both games failed at being stealth in different ways. There had never been proper and true stealth games yet, everything was some form of stealth action, and Thief was no different. All of those monster levels with vast arsenals of specialized weapons to deal with them, and puzzles that require the use of high explosives near enemy patrols making it impossible to remain undetected. Very erratic monster patrols in bottlenecked level design. The game wasn't truly designed so that stealth gameplay is the main assumption even though in most cases you can do it because it's dynamic enough to give you that room to maneuver.Metal Gear Solid failed in a different way. By having the storytelling be in conflict with what the gameplay wants the player to do. In the levels you're supposed to employ your rudimentary stealth by pac-man maneuvering your character around the ghosts in the maze and around their 5m long ability to see. And then there's a cutscene and your character just walks in front of an enemy commander, the commander challenges him into a duel and the character submits.So, MGS must be the same kind of game as Thief and must be among the topics of discussion when it comes to stealth, because Thief wasn't a perfect representative, so a deliberately bad representative must count as well. On top of it counting as a videogame despite being 65% cutscenes and codec calls by volume.
>>737745605you are all kinds of dumb and retarded
>>737745656Because you want the moviegame that's 10% stealth gameplay to count as a stealth game next to Thief? Or because you don't think that Thief's stealth design is degraded by its monster level design? Empty announcements of disagreement with a post have no value.
>>737740378You best start believing in immersive sims Anon, you're in one.
>>737745165Point allocation in skills allows the player to express himself through the character.
So what's the most "simulationy" immersive sim? For me it's Mooncrash.
>>737743110Are you retarded? Ecelebs love "imsims". Just look at the 24 hour videos they make on them just detailing the plot
>>737746174I get the concept. I just didn't like how it was done in those games. They feel half-baked compared to proper RPGs.
>>737745009>knock down power poles in mgsv>doesn't cut power to a base>disappointed
Are Bethesda games imsims?Are Hitman games imsims?>>737743607>>737744450Alpha Protocol isn't Cold War but it's a pretty neat spy RPG
>>737747368>Are Bethesda games imsims?According to Colantonio, yes? But i don't see it. The mission structure is very linear and most NPC's are unkillable.
>>737747368>Are Bethesda games imsims?I mean considering both Looking Glass and Ion Storm cited Daggerfall as an example of what not ot do (in interviews around the time of Thief and in the Deus Ex design doc respectively) then probably not.>Are Hitman games imsims?Debatable. If not they capture the spirit more than most other games people cite as being one.
You can just say open level design The closest I've seen in a while is Abiotic Factor
>>737747368Hitman I'd say so considering how the levels are laid out
>>737746212Normal Prey 2017 for me. I can't get immersed with a procedurally generated level no matter what. I know it's literally a simulation of humans trying to induce the concept of empathy into an alien mind, but that shouldnt' be a story gimmick that lampshades the fact that the level design is blatantly a randomly generated videogame level rather than a place where humans work.
>>737740378Immersive sim is more of a buzzword to describe design sensibilities rather than a genre.
>>737747368>Are Hitman games imsims?The correct question is were they designed along the imsim design philosophy, and the answer is... almost ? They have all those mechanics regarding different damage physics, alert propagation, NPC routines and influencing them, but what's really diametrically opposed to the philosophy is the 100% authored navigation.Hitman's movement is so strictly designer-driven that it doesn't even have a jump button. You will only ever walk down paths that someone has given you as a manually implemented option in a list of options. There is no geometry-based mantling or freeform level design based on simply what is physically reachable. Nowhere you can go is in any way emergent based on your freedom. You are only picking from a list someone gave you.The only emergent movement is when you glitch 47 with physics objects to stand on top of a railing which lets him fall down. Frankly it's surprising thet the character even responds to gravity at all since no falling is normally possible. It's probably just because that tiny bit of systems-based movement activity allows one to avoid 99% of instances of simply getting stuck due to not meticulously checking every navmesh.
>>737748267I think you hit the nail on the head of what is it that makes me not like the Hitman games despite them sounding like somethiing that I would love on paper, for me it feels very gimmicky, the social stealth aspect is cool, but a lot of the time it just feels like looking around for the level's gimmick to interact with it.
>>737740485imsim is a low IQ term for people who just cant describe the actual gameplay in detailits like "fun"
>>737748393It's actually ridiculous that even Ubislop like Ghost Recon Wildlands actually has a geometry-based freeform mantling system that lets you climb any architecture that your character can physicalyl reach and isn't blocked by razor wire or something. And Hitman, a franchise about sandbox murder plots, has never had anything resembling navigation freedom beyond the ability to shoot open locks.
>>737748028The levels are handcrafted though. There's just random hazards and some doors are locked in different ways.
>>737748028> I can't get immersed with a procedurally generated level no matter what.Nta but the levels of Mooncrash are static. The thing that crashes from reset to reset (not in between characters in a same loop) are enemy positions and quantities, loot, hazards (ruptured pipes, the fucking tentacle nests, etc), blocked doors, power shortages, etc.(To be fair, some of those can kick in mid loop, like enemy spawns in other areas strengthening with corruption level increases and blackouts hitting in areas that were fine before)
Jagged Alliance series had a whole bunch of immersive mechanics, non-linear gameplay, and playfully useless stuff like mercs that steal from you, get randomly drunk, or exist just to be a joke. You could even send flowers to the queen just to piss her off.
>>737740378This, I can some-what understand System Shock and Deus Ex being similar, but Thief felt more like autistic Tenchu than Deus Ex
>>737740378Imsim is not a genre it's elements
>>737748398midwits cant into simple english words
>>737749303Does it have RogueLITE mechanics? Meaning that some progress remains after you die? I've never enjoyd that kind of game design. I know it's justified in the story but I dunno, it still feels wrong to me. Death should be game over, and you should have to do better with what you had, not try again but with what remains after you died. Feels condescending. You couldn't deal with these parameters? Oh, then you can try again but with these other parameters.
>>737740378Not really a genre, but a design philosophy.
>>737749526More specifically it's the reason why certain elements are chosen. You don't design three ways to open a door for the sake of gameplay variety. You design objects with properties and behaviors, all objects share that fact, and some of those objects end up being defined as 'doors' and they perform the functions that doors perform. But because they're based on systems and properties, then there are many ways to deal with that object using other systems and other properties.
>>737749813don't be such a sperg
>>737744006Sub game? What title I'm intrigued
>>737741286Is fallout an immersive sim?
>>737750130>just spam the vita chambers to kill the Big Daddy. Dying 30 times is fine if each time you take away 3% of the enemy's health :^)No thanks. Games are supposed to have rules. You get enjoyment from being able to overcome challenges based on rules. If there are no rules, or the game changes the rules to help you win after you fail, that reduces or eliminates entertainment value.
>>737750436my post did not defend bioshock
>>737740378>>737740652I've taken to understand it means when you balance a stealth game with a shooter.
>>737749813Unlocked neuromods, sim points and character unlocks are the things that stay between resets. Sim points you can use at the start of a run to start with gear (afaik literally everything you can get with those you can easily find during a run). You can transfer some items between characters of a loop by stuffing them into an special operator... or by dying and then killing the phantom your corpse turned into. But all those items are gone once the reset hits.
>>737749813>>737750521Don't use the sim store. It completely breaks the game.
>>737750097I think I get it, in classic CRPGs like you have a locked door and you can try to find the key to open it or use the thief ability to pick the lock or use the option to try to and force the lock, but those are discrete gameplay options you choose as if from a limited menu of options, in a immsim, the door would be asigned the material wood and you could make it catch fire or do actions that deal damage to destroy it, someone will figure than you can grab a heavy object from a different place in the map and throw it at the door to destroy.
We're never going to get a sequel are we
cant help but notice you don't love system shock what are you some sort of a fucking loser!?
Thief is a stealth game. simple as
>>737750603I don't, at most I buy the jetpack and nothing else so I don't lose that much time pussyfooting around the crater in the first char (and then find one immediately after)
>>737749303Sounds like Nosferatu Wrath of MalachiThat game was cool.
>>737750765There's always a jetpack as soon as you leave the spawn.
>>737740378>>737740487Deus Ex is the weakest of the 4 games in OP's image and im tired of pretending its not.
>>737750490It does. You rejected criticism of post-death progression, so you defended Bioshock.>>737750521Even though the story justifies loops and so there isn't the problem of post-death progression breaking the immersion, I still would prefer to face the challenges of games on their terms and not terms that change after failure. It's just my preference, not even an opinion strictly defining it as bad design.For example Fromsoft games effectively maintain tension in dangerous levels with the prospect of potentially losing resources if your character dies. So, an unimmersive inter-session mechanic keeps the gameplay more tense than it would be if there was regular saving and loading. Sekiro is even better because your character is canonically immortal, and retaining any resources past death is up to Ōkami's karma and the gods.
>>737750848i always thought it was shit. it's like if you threw SS1/2 and Thief in a blender and made it shittier.
>>737750876no I called you a sperg
>>737750840That'd explain it. Also the amount of points they give you is a bit absurd.
>>737750219Silent Hunter 3
>>737740378Correct, “imsim” isn’t a genre but it’s generally used to describe games with similar design philosophy For example when I say my perfect game would feature imsim elements I mean I want basically the world and everything in it to be simulated and I play in that world according to its rules and am able to do anything I want as long as it doesn’t violate those rules
>>737750907It's okay, you don't need to hide and defend your poor tastes. You don't need to try to compel others to share them to pretend that they're not poor tastes.
>All four are considered part of the same fake genreThat's because Imsim is not a genreIt's a design philosophy
>>737741261It's not really a genre but it's convenient to treat it as such to find games that do similar things."Immersive simulation" is more design philosophy. The best way to think about it: >Make your game as consistent as possible The idea is that if you shoot a gun it does "gun damage" instead of triggering some scripted behavior and by developing the game like this,you end up with a game that can have unique combinations thought up by the player and they should as much as possible consistently result in expected outcomes for the player. For example recently I played Arx Fatalis ( great game, spoiler ahead ). It has a part where you need to get some information from the goblin king, he is locked in his throne room. You can either kills his guards and bust in or learn that he is allergic to wine and it gives him the shits. There is a cook goblin feeding him pies by sliding freshly baked pies under the door. Now you can either bust in, or put wine in the pie dough. But because this game is designed to be consistent you can also just interact a pie on the door and slide your own pie under it, It doesn't require you to use the scripted cook. You can also put wine in a pie yourself again bypassing the scripted cook. You can also just cast a trap spell on a pie and slide it under the door and attack the king like that. All of this works because the game is designed consistently with the immersive simulation philosophy
>>737752601PS>muh simulationactually imsims are not about simulation at allthey are about immersing the playersimulation is one of the tools to do that but it can fail in hilarious ways and it's not the only tool
>>737752130nigger
Imsim is the Dogme 95 of vidya
real talk. Are system shock 1,2 good on ps5?
>>737752785dont say that word
>>737741261It's a game where you can interact with the environment a lot apparently.
>>737749813>RogueLITE mechanics? Meaning that some progress remains after you die?That's not what that means.
>>737741261I'd say its any first person game with simulation like elements that allow a couple solutions to given problems. You don't need to overthink it. I always think of that clip of a guy shrinking himself and throwing himself through a mail slot in Prey as a peak Immersive Sim example.
Thief is a stealth game and Deus Ex is a RPG.
This message makes me sad. Knowing what a shitshow Redfall was.
>>737741256It's easy as piss, you might just want to go kys
I played BioShock for about an hour and I hated it. Way too linear and almost no freedom to do anything in a creative way. You get a lightning power and then fight a bunch of enemies that jump in a pool of water. You get a fire power and then fight a bunch of enemies that stand around in oil. It's closer to Zelda than System Shock with this square peg, square hole bullshit. Also they were just trying wayyyy too hard to make the surgeon guy LE DISTURBING, it's executed very poorly compared to something like finding out that the female staff in System Shock 2 were being called away one by one to be turned into cyborg midwives.
>>737753270>That's not what that means.Roguelite explicitly means that some amount of progress does preserve after death. In Roguelike games death is game over and you start from the beginning with a fresh character and nothing transfers over.
>>737740485you can click on many objects
>>737755049It doesn't. That's just a common misconception from spread around by Berlin Interpretation spergs and midwits.Roguelites are games that borrow some elements from Roguelikes without going the full hog. There is obviously a large amount of Roguelites that have meta progression.Out of curiosity what do you call Roguelites without meta progression?
>>737753270Tell us the official definition then
>>737755869>Official>UsYou are not very bright
>>737746212what i really liked about mooncrash is that you really get to know all the areas and to try out all the abilities
>>737755869>>737755803
I feel like Imsim as a genre never really got to mature and there are still core issues that need to be sorted out.The main problem I have with the core idea of the genre is that it's seemingly impossible to provide the player with a proper sense of progression and pacing.What is good pacing in a game? A game with perfect pacing is Space Invaders, it is the game that gave origin to the idea of pacing itself, the game gets progressively harder as you play at the perfect pace to always offer an amount of difficulty to challenge the player without being too overwhelming or boring, the best arcade games do this as does something like Diably, but these are simple games.Going back to Imsims, in the perfectly designed imsim the player would learn or come up with new tricks at a steady pace to deal with new challenges provided by the game's setpieces or levels, the issue is that due to the unpredictable nature of the genre, there's no way for the developer to design the game to provide that kind pacing consistently, the game is going to be the most overwhelming at the beginning due to the player's lack of knowledge about the systems that are in play and as the player advances the amount of tools and tricks he will acquire are likely to outstrip the ability of the game to provide a proper challenge, the player may come up with a trick that is so good (like stacking crates) it can be used everywhere and then any sense of pacing and challenge is gone forever.
>>737755803>Out of curiosity what do you call Roguelites without meta progression?Not Roguelites because I have never encountered a Roguelite that doesn't have meta progression.Also, "Berlin interpretation" is cope by retards who want something to belong under a definition that doesn not define what they want it to define. When a game is like Rogue, it's Roguelike, and when you don't like that because you're retarded, you call it Berlin Interpretation instead. Someone who really wants their game that isn't tile-based, turn-based, dice-based, procedural, permadeath or ASCII really wants their game to be called the same as games that are those things. And as they're rejected they invent a slur
>>737755803Name 5 Roguelites without meta progression.You can't because meta progression is the main way which they differ from true roguelikes so the term has become synonymous with that.
>>737757503https://gprivate.com/6ks1u
As per usual this thread sucks. Can we talk about how cool Thief is instead? I love Thief.Or Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Deus Ex, Dishonored - y'know? Whatever floats your boat.
IMO, Deus Ex ruined the term.
>>737740378How Can Immersive Sims Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real?
