Why do souls fans love artificial difficulty so much?
>>737821097what is artificial difficulty?
>>737821146difficulty that's not hard IRL
>>737821146All difficulty is artificial
>>737821146Difficulty done in a way that they don't approve of making them decry it as "fake" or "artificial" instead of gitting gud
>>737821184Isn't that all games? Games aren't hard.
>>737821146cheap attacks, input reading, etc
>>737821097Which boss filtered you so bad to make this shit, OP
>>737821304>>737821274I member when I first booted up Elden Ring and my opponent was staying still and then as soon as I half-pressed a button he moved.Thats a fact.
Is there ANYTHING fromdrones won't defend?
>>737821385Okay TJ Henry.
>>737821304OP couldn't beat asylum demon in DS1.
>>737821226upload a video of a 100% run on I wanna kill the Kamilia 3
>>737821097so they can brag to other normalfags they beat le hard boss
>>737821423Dark Souls 2 was bad. We all knew it was bad but it's still Dark Souls which puts it down to a 7/10.
>>737821146A challenge that transparently arises from some developer trying to make a "difficult game". It's when immersion is shattered by something that was too obviously only done to get a cheap kill off the player, rather than as a natural-feeling component of the level or enemy.Some examples from Elden Ring, because it has just so many:>Attacks delayed or staggered to such a degree that it obviously ceases to be anything resembling a natural movement for the enemy>Input reading so aggressive that enemies react before your character is even performing an animation/react the exact same way every time on a reproducible trigger>Overuse of the exact same ways to cheaply chunk the player's HP bar, such as tucking enemies scripted to grab/combo in dead angles next to doors even when it makes no sense for the area, placing items on ledges with enemies hidden nearby to push you off
>>737821539None of this happened in my experience but I understand if you feel the need to blame the game instead of yourself.
>>737821146Bad design hamfisted into a game with the intent of arbitrarily making it more difficult for the player for little to no pay off or reason, or in a way that is not enjoyable to engage with.
>>737821206>>737821482trvke>>737821539I wish you a safe transition
>>737821539>>737821613Which games have had that?
>>737821609>None of this happened in my experienceWhy lie this poorly? All of these things are obviously in the game. Did you play blindfolded? Especially the delayed attacks are so overdone that they became a meme amongst normies. It was so obvious and cartoonish, even they noticed. Same for the input reading.
>>737821423Not only will I defend this, I prefer this.It is not stats that grant strength in a souls game, but knowledge.Once you know that you can't outsmart mimics in DS2 by attacking them from the rear, you won't ever get your tight bussy raped harder than the only boy in a Catholic choir in a small town in Florida again.
>>737821097e33 is what shitposters think souls games are, but that game gets a pass.
I'm glad I cashed out early on. I beat DS1 and BB and felt that was it for me.
>>737821146Bosses they can't beat because they're stupid
>>737821690There are delayed attacks but they are not overdone. They are working as intended and catching people who are asleep at the wheel.
>>737821690>cattle that get their opinions from youtubers and play these games once think something stupidI'm shocked
>>737821097>that little hammer shake right before he hitsthis is completely readable
>>737821690The fact that shitposters have to using OP's webm or glitched Margit instead of actual webms from the game is proof that they're arguing disingenuously.
>>737821097because without it they can't circlejerk about how they beat le hard games
>>737821712I agree with you a bit. But I'd use real life examples to illustrate my point. Swap the Priest with one of those Judean New York tunnel dwellers or a Muslim grooming gang or an atheist teacher.Mimics serve a vital role. They teach us about knowledge.
>>737821720Demons souls (ps3) is also worthwhile, but otherwise youre not missing out on anything
>>737821934Suicidal troons are acting disingenuous?
>>737821763Yes, the designer compromised on making enemies move in a believable way in favor of making it more "difficult" by trying to counter the player on a meta level. That's artificial difficulty.>>737821835Which is some interesting projection, because the only way you wouldn't notice that ER is riddled with artificial difficulty is by either exclusively "experiencing" the game through streams and videos, or by having so little critical thought in your brain that your opinion isn't worth considering.
>>737822058You might just be bad at these games.
>>737822034Every fucking time man
>>737822058>the designer compromised on making enemies move in a believableNo they didn't.
>>737821423Mimics in 1 and 3 are pathetic and almost always die before they can even finish their waking up animation. 2 making them open with an attack you can't fuck with was objectively good. Maybe it needed a different animation to better convey that it's a 360 degree grab, but it's good mechanically.
>>737821097it's crazy to me how delayed attacks and complex movesets buckbroke ds2 sissies so hard that they're still whinging about it 4 years later
>>737821953Ah yes anon, I know it's an overused bit and I've nothing against Catholics, I was only drawing from personal experience.Sans the rape part, all of the priests were exceptionally kind and fatherly to me, unlike Dark Souls games.
>>737822102These elements are in the game regardless of the player's skill. I can beat the game just fine, I've done so multiple times. That doesn't really change the fact that these things exist. Why even make an argument so obviously stupid? Will being extremely good at the game magically alter boss animations and enemy placement?
>>737821883>the lock-on is on the anklesREAD THIS YOU BITCH!
>>737822034Once you get a feel for these feints and rollcatches is when you ascend to a new skill level and it immediately jumps from being bullshit to enjoyable.
>>737822205I never experienced any artificial difficulty.
>>737821934every time you get into the weeds with these people they got filtered by margit, either actually dropping the game or he mindbroke them.
artificial difficulty is, like "obscenity", one of those things that's nearly impossible to define, but which is so intuitively and obviously true for any normal, healthy, sane human being that to deny its existence can be nothing but blatant, mendacious gaslighting
>>737822131You may lack the requisite IQ to understand what does and doesn't look like believable movement. Because an enemy stalling the momentum of their weapon mid-swing just to delay for a second before finishing the movement doesn't.
>>737822182DS2 really put a spotlight on how much the average gamer over-emphasizes "muh first time experience"As if it's not possible for there to be a game where you experience friction and frustration at first, but then get better at it as you go and learn to think outside the box to approach situationsShitters complain games are too easy and predictable but then can handle when a game doesn't just assume the position when they slap together a trash build and spam attack + roll
>>737822232
>>737822232I figured everyone dodged those attacks do people really get hit by them?
>>737822249Then you're a stream watcher and never played the game, lack critical thinking skills, or are plain retarded. Take your pick.
>>737821304>>737821482>>737822182>>737821609>>737821627>>737821835>>737822131>>737821934>>737822012>>737822271So true xisters
>>737821673elden ring
>>737822384I beat the game like 20 times over 4000 hours.
>>737822058>series conceptualized as difficult and punishing from its inception with demon's souls>naturally enemies are laid out to ambush and trap the player>this confuses and befuddles anon
>>737822332kek
>>737822034literally just block
>>737822435yes well acording to a very persuasive irishman, miyazaki said difficulty was never the point even though miyazaki has never said that.
>>737822432Well, there's two other options, so either one probably covers your damage, then.>>737822435Do I need to explain the word "believable" to you, anon? Also, if you played the older games, you'd know that they generally did a pretty good job signposting when an area was treacherous, or a type of enemy played dirty. It wasn't just a general assumption that applied to every area and every enemy.
>>737822502if you ever equipped a shield in any souls game you are a giant nigger
>>737822435They might not play many games from these devs and don't realize the devs troll as learning experiences.
I hate rollslop metaswings
They should change the invincible roll mechanic, because the only way they can increase the difficulty is with this fucked up timing
>>737821146Instead of making enemies smarter, adding new attacks, changing tactics so you can't cheese, etc.As opposed to "LOL make enemies fatter and give them more damage, also spam them everywhere".Technically harder, practically just boring.
>>737822640Don't care, had fun.
>>737821146RNG or one of those "Its as hard as you want it to be" of handicapping yourself to make it hard
>>737821539fromdrones are beyond reason, they're the CoDbros of RPGs
>>737822802Rolling was unironically a mistake. It was so broken in Dark Souls that they decided to nerf the baseline in DS2 and make it expensive to get a "good" roll back, and that caused the fanbase to shit themselves so hard that we got nothing but unadulterated rollslop since. They should've just killed it after DS2. Replace it with a simple hop that does nothing but create distance. Remove iframes entirely, put more focus on blocking, positioning, armor, and poise. The games would've been much better for it.
>>737821146mechanics that go against instinctual logic. ie hitbox misalignment, no consistency in what is blockable/can be parried, can’t roll between the legs of giant enemies because of collision etc. basically all of souls games
I simply do not engage with a game where the premise is "lol u mad?" and instead I play the superior action game, MH.
>>737823051>roars three times back to back
>>737823046souls games are consistent in all of that.
>>737823046>instinctual logicWhat is this?
>>737822949Reducing iframes and demanding stat investment to get more is one thing, but DS2 has a broken roll hitbox that prevents you from using rolling as a dodging tool unless you have iframes.
>>737823051based
>>737822949I disagree, I think the later games made it a point to make other options stronger relative to dodge rolling because people were relying on it too much.I think the notion that the later games are rollslop comes from people being unable to move on from roll spamming and seeing other options as unseemly, making the games unnecessarily harder for themselves. Elden Ring shields are stronger than ever and Ashes of War and jumping are better alternatives to avoid attacks than rolling in many situations.
>>737821724The first Dark Souls was perfectly tuned. It was a combination of learning the pattern, knowing the weaknes and knowing the opportunity window to attack.The problem is that once you understand that, the game is not that hard, it's fair.From decided to focus only on the difficulty aspect while keeping the same mechanics, but they only changed those aspects instead of creating other kind of strategies.That created a particular subset of players who autistically think that dying 15 times on the same enemy is part of the experience.
>>737823139A human being with a fully developed brain has an instinctual understanding of what does and doesn't make sense. It's a 100+ IQ thing, so you might not get it.
>>737823051somehow even more boring than bamham slop
>>737822232>skill level >PvE game Lmao what a loser faggot. Play a PvP game if you want to feel superior about your "skill"
>>737821304that clip has been around for years and its pretty accurate a lot of attacks in elden rang, lies of p, exp33, etc. not so much the original souls trilogy. soulslikes hadn't become completely flanderized yet
>>737821097This never happens in the games. Stop cryint.
>>737821146Anything too hard for soft ass casual faggots asshholes.
>>737823196>dying 15 times on the same enemy is part of the experience.It always was
>>737822949Roll is fine where it is as of Elden Ring/Nightreign, the problem now is players think they're owed no hit runs because they rolled through Taurus Demon swings 15 years ago.
>>737823182>Elden Ring shields are stronger than everUntil they're not and bosses rip through your stamina in half a combo, knock you so far back on block that retaliation becomes impossible, or in Malenia's case heal off blocked hits. Using any but the heaviest shields available in ER is just setting yourself up for misery, and it's still worse than dodging even then in most scenarios, because a dodge is not just full damage evasion (so no chip damage/status either), but also much cheaper on stamina and a free reposition that can be translated into a counter-offensive.>jumpingSure, but let's not kid ourselves. Jump is just a second dodge button that works slightly differently.
>>737823182Exactly, they should just remove rolling. They have 3 games with the same mechanic and Elden Ring became the epitome of rollslop.
i still find it funny how much people cried about waterfowl dance when blocking the first part, literally the only part that you can't i-frame the entire duration of, completely trivializes it. people really just refuse to use shields in elden ring for some reason, they are literally the best tool you have if you want to learn a boss's timings, just fucking block you god damn retards
>>737822232No it's still lame bullshit that made my roll my eyes for my entire playthrough.
>>737821097>It's never about the game difficulty. It's about your own lack of cognitive capacity. Something that plagues you, in your everyday life.Dumdums gonna be dumdumbs whether it's in video games or irl.
They should just remove i frames from rolling.
>>737823292my problem with elden ring is that there is a massive disconnect between the dungeon design and boss designthe dungeons are kinda cool(auriza side tomb, etc) but the enemies are too easyand then you get to the bosses and they have multi-hit combos where you engage in this process:>don't know how to dodge the combo>try going left>die>try going right>die>try going back>die>try going forward>die>try all the above with slightly different timings>find the one that works>repeat 10x for every new move in the boss' arsenal>this sometimes breaks because multiple attacks look like each other or cannot be reacted to consistently
>>737823139anything that immediately makes sense typically based on physics and anatomy
>>737823363>Until they're not and bosses rip through your stamina in half a combobarricade shield completely halves stamina loss on block and can be used by anybody>>737823453>don't know how to dodge the comboTHEN FUCKING BLOCK, WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE SO GOD DAMN STUPID
>>737823216>100 IQ+ people are midwits riding on vibesThank God I'm in the below average range then.
>>737823412there are problems that aren't fun to solve, and you shouldn't make a video game out of those
>>737823196no what did that was the trial and error baked into the design since demons souls. the entire mechanic of having to get your souls back after you die is exactly that. >instead of creating other kind of strategieswhat do you mean? you have more evasion options than ever. every build has access to every weapon class. staggering that encourages the use of r2s and charged r2s. all sorts of buffs and consumables, weaknesses to exploit. there's more strategies than ever. if the player decides to stubbornly cling to the idea that they need to roll and r1 everything without a shield and struggle for it, that's on them.
>>737823292It never was, but the fandom was so enamored that it became that way, specially in ER.Most fights of DS1 and Bloodborne were interesting because they were different from each other. You would die once or twice but everytime you realized and learned the new mechanic quickly.
>>737823540blocking most "fuck you" combos like margit spin, gaius combo, midra spin, etc will just destroy your stamina>get a bigger shieldyes, this is why fingerprint+barricade shield is the retard easymode
>>737823591>it's not fun to be an idiot irl
>>737823540>barricade shield completely halves stamina loss on block and can be used by anybodyPlaying shield is playing constant whack-a-mole with annoyances. Sure, barricade shield is good, so is scholar's shield. But then you have to shuffle weapons, because using a shield with an ash blocks your main hand ash from being used, or you gotta have a staff in your main hand, and you still have plenty of boss attacks to deal with that will lock you in place or send your ass rolling backwards on block. Using the shields actually worth using all but locks you into a strength build, and... you could just as well roll and jump and skip all of that mess while having a much higher damage uptime.
>>737823182sure but it still has the problem of being a Simon Says memory game where any encounter is won or lost by making more than one consecutive mistake. I don’t hate souls because it’s hard, I hate it because a victory is just near-perfect execution through repetition, not something I earned during the fight
>>737823751tbf brass shield is only 16 strengthit's a little stupid that 16 strength, a common drop from any godrick soldier, and barricade shield from a beginner area night's cavalry 100% trivializes the game
>>737823701>>737823751then use the shield until you learn the timings and then you can stop using it, what are you not getting here? but like i said, barricade shield halving stamina loss will put you in greatshield guard boost territory
>>737823363>bosses rip through your stamina in half a comboI genuinely never had that problem even with medium shields. There are ashes and sorceries to buff stability and no reason for the player not to use them unless they want to gimp themselves.>Using any but the heaviest shields available in ER is just setting yourself up for miseryOverrelying on dodge rolling is what makes people miserable, the game literally gives you more options to avoid attacks than any other from games.>>737823681it literally always was, people have been spreading the lie that these games were never about the difficulty for too long
>>737823772>any encounter is won or lost by making more than one consecutive mistakelevel your vigor retard
>>737823891anon, that's not how it worksrolling has vulnerable frames, and carries you in a direction that either makes the next attack hit sooner or lateryou only learn the "standing still" timings with a shield
>>737823751An easy way to learn the game is play shield and faith for hp regen and defensive buffs. Instead of running into the boss as a suicide run you can artificial difficulty you can play slow and learn the moveset.
>>737823772sounds like you need more mistake allowance. I recommend you level vigor past base.
>>737823895>people have been spreading the lie that these games were never about the difficulty for too longDifficulty was always a component, but never the star. It was a means to an end, a way to sell the world as threatening, the enemies as dangerous, the challenge as to be taken seriously, exploration as hazardous and to be undertaken carefully. Difficulty in the older games existed primarily to kick your ass when you disrespected the rules of the game and its world. There's a vast difference in design and approach here that people tend to ignore in these arguments.
>>737823090>Equips earplugs on known roarersCheckmate.
>>737821097My personal issue is this design trend of giving bosses 10-hit combos that they can cancel or extend at any time. You get frustrating situations were a boss will do a 3 attack combo several times in a fight, so you start thinking 'right so that move they have is a 3 attack combo, so I can take my turn to attack after I dodge the 3rd hit', but lo and behold they actually have a 4th, 5th and even 6th combo extender just waiting to input read you. It basically means taking your turn to attack is a gamble unless you only ever wait for the full combo to finish before committing to an attack. It's becoming a very boring and tedious boss design to play against.
>>737823596>the entire mechanic of having to get your souls back after you die is exactly that. uhhh i guess that dying in any videogame is trial and error then>all sorts of buffs and consumables, weaknesses to exploitpoorly done, only bleed is viable from the start, everything else requires perfect knolwedge of where the scrolls/talismans/crafting recipes are aka finishing 90% of the game summons are a quick workaround for this shit but they make the fights way too easy
>>737824059>play DLC with 60 vig>get two-shot anyway lmao
>>737824025how many fucking attacks in this game actually require you to roll in a specific direction to block a follow up? i can literally only think of pcr pre patch requiring this kind of bullshit. stop bitching already
>>737824078i love when you guys pretend every single boss functions like margit and morgott when it's literally just margit and morgott that do this shit
>>737824124Your skibidi fragments?
>>737824078Moving away from bosses being able to overextend, commit to a long animation lock attack, and just plain "make mistakes" was a huge blunder that turned what used to be fun fights that were entertaining to figure out into drawn-out, overdesigned spectacle fests that are just kind of tiresome check list simulators.
>>737822502>downward swingNah, you roll forward, swinging down generally goes right through blocks and flattens you.
>>737824059While true those components were that way because the game world was highly abstracted so you needed to slow the pace with deliberate hardcore combat so the surroundings and the vibe could sync up. The game world isn't highly abstracted now so they can get right to the fun of the combat while having the same vibes. These games stem from hardware limitations that aren't there anymore and you want them to act like they still are.
>>737823226Filtered
>>737824249so you've never even tried using a shield, got it
>>737821423should have 2 handed his weapon
>>737821146Difficulty derived from lack of authenticity to make a game more difficult than it would be, assuming everything made sense.For example, enemy swings a sword at you, you dodge under it but you still take damage because the hitbox is considerably in front of the sword itself.So your character is cut in half despite never having touched a sword.
>>737824190Definitely more than just those two in ER, but I'm noticing this type of things in other souls-like games. Lords of the Fallen has bosses who do exactly what I described.
>>737823772You can make plenty of mistakes and still win if you're prepared.Get yourself a decent armor, a shield, some defensive talismans and level your vigor and you'll never struggle again. You don't even need perfect knowledge of the game to pull this off, just general caution gets you very far.>>737824059>"Hardship is what gives meaning to the experience"This has been Miyazaki's design philosophy since Demons' Souls. Any other reason is fan headcanon.
>>737822232>Sir, another roll catch animation on top of it all just hit the game.
>>737821539>>Attacks delayed or staggered to such a degree that it obviously ceases to be anything resembling a natural movement for the enemy"artificial" in the context of a videogame would be to forcefully adapt a gameplay mechanic to fit any sort of graphic or "natural looking" visual animation, literally the opposite of what you are saying. Do you also think that all fighting games are artificially hard because active frames, recovery frames and hitboxes are not 1:1 with the sprites/models? Or that platformers are artificially easy because most of them allow you to strafe mid-air?You should apply to be a videogame journalist, IGN would love your takes
>>737824428feel free to name them
>>737821146nah, it just means they can't actually design compelling battles
>>737824243they still do all of that. I walk around half of mohg's attacks lol. there's plenty of opportunity to get full charge r2s in on morgott. you people are just bad at identifying windows and spacing.
>>737823051>G / Master Rank>Melee>Mobs have no openings without flash bomb, spam>Time limit.>BoredomIts shit. The alternative>Use guns>Die in one hit>You WILL get hit in G-RankIs worse. MH is bad.
>>737824429>This has been Miyazaki's design philosophy since Demons' SoulsHow does this in any way go against what I said? In fact, it actually agrees with me. Yes, hardship was there. It had a purpose. And it wasn't the core of the experience, but just a means to give meaning to the experience. That's specifically the point I'm making. The experience is still in the foreground, with difficulty being used judiciously and carefully to enhance it. The goal wasn't to drive up that death counter by any means, it was to provide a coherent experience that evokes a certain feeling in the player, and part of that feeling is the lethality of the world they navigate.
>>737821627Elden Slop is literally body type A-B troonslop lol
>>737822502>blocking>in le souls game
>>737824319>try to block downward thrust from gargoyle fight in DS1 outside of NG+ (without having a maxed out stam bar or ring of favor)>saps all of your stam if it lands on top of you and flattens youIf the downthrust is made from a standing position, you roll back to clear the impact spot.If it's made from an airborne position, you roll forward to get behind the boss and get easy hits in.You block horizontal swings and projectiles, unless it's a long combo or heavy hit, at which point you roll to keep close to the boss while negating damage without a massive stamina cost.
>>737824638And how does that not apply to Elden Ring?
>>737821146It's game journo's favourite buzzword to pass the blame unto the game when anything is too difficult for them for little brains.
>>737824638>And it wasn't the core of the experience,it is. >The goal wasn't to drive up that death counter by any means,weird how demon's has a death counter then lol.
>>737824683>has to specify dark souls 1 even though we're all talking about elden ringhmm yes i see
>>737824768I'm not gonna reiterate the thread for you or try to make you understand things you're not equipped to understand. Either you get it, and have the ability to spot a fundamental shift in design philosophy, approach to and treatment of difficulty in the games, and the way they achieved it mechanically, or you just don't. In which case, enjoy your video game.
>>737821423>Is there ANYTHING fromdrones won't defend?Your ass for sucking at the game. Git gud.
>>737821146There are different skills to be testet in games. Sometimes it is your knowledge that is being testet, sometimes it is your reflexes, sometimes your muscle-memory, or your multitasking and some more. Often serveral things are being testet at once. So what is artificial difficulty? There are many possible answers and it greatly depends on who you ask, but I guess most would agree it is any kind of challenge that just feels unfair. Like a "gotcha"-question, not designed to challenge you, but designed to fuck you over. OP's pic is an example where the player is led to believe that his reflexes and timing are being tested. But in reality, the only way to react properly to these many fake-outs is to know exactly beforehand, when the actual attack comes. So it is a knowledge-check disguised as a reflex-check, just to fuck the player over. The player isn't given an honest try. If he faces this situations the first time, he is going to get fucked for no other reason than not knowing better. Actually, it is not even the many fake-outs that are the problem, as much as it is the players inability to punish them. Imagine you could go in an smash in the bosses face for fucking around so much. If the boss had to take an actual risk for playing this stupid game, it would be much fairer. But that is not the case. You have to wait for your turn, but never know when your turn is.
>>737821097I find this funny too.
>>737824801Look up the difference between core and component. The pieces will hopefully fall into place for you from there.
>>737821423DS2
>>737824467Red Wolf of RadagonMaleniaElemer of the BriarNight CavalryGodskinsCrucible KnightsVirtually every boss in the dlc
>>737824979you haven't presented a shred of evidence that there even is a distinction. miyazaki has been consistent about this from demon's to elden ring.
>>737824852>"When I’m playing these games, I think, This is the way I’d want to die – in a way that is amusing or interesting, or that creates a story I can share,” he says. “Death and rebirth, trying and overcoming – we want that cycle to be enjoyable. In life, death is a horrible thing. In play, it can be something else.">"I'm a huge masochist, so when I make games like these… this is how I want to be treated," he added. "It's just that sometimes other people don't understand it; it's for my pleasure.">Demon's Souls was born out of a desire to return gaming to its fundamentals - that is, to re-embrace the trial and error and difficulty that we used to take for granted, and leave the player to work things out for themselves.>"From the outset, we started making it based on a 'back-to-basics' concept," says Miyazaki. "We wanted a 'game-like game', something that was fun in the way games used to be, and we were confident that we could do it.This is true of every game he ever designed, including Elden Ring. Sorry your special loophole definition of what is at the core of these games is irrelevant to the discussion, bud.
>>737824917Another indicator for artifical difficulty: When the enemy is clearly not playing by the same rules and restricitons as you are, and for no good reasons. That last part, good reasons, can be difficult to judge. Since AI is not as good in most games as human players, it needs a bit of an advantage to be able to compete with a human. Chess is the only game that I can think of at the top of my head, where the AI doesn't need any help whatsoever and is not only even, but actually superior to humans.
>>737825282>>737824852
>>737825090>red wolf of radagonno>maleniano>elemer of the briaronly if you keep your distance from him does he go apeshit>night cavalryno>godskinsno>crucible knightsfuck no>virtually every boss in the dlcno, not virtually every boss in the dlc actuallyare we having some kind of disconnect here because every boss here has clear endings to their combos that you can consistently exploit
>>737823175God I miss old non-anime bow. It was like lance where it was one-note and methodical, but in a way that made it feel really nice to just get your positioning and aiming down and hit every shot perfectly in crit distance on the weak spot
>>737825364>When the enemy is clearly not playing by the same rules and restricitons as you areSo like the goombas in mario?
>>737822232its not skill, its trial and error just to memorize the enemy movesetpre elden ring/ds3 yes, you could reliably dodge enemy attacks you weren't familiar with purely by timing
>>737825668You can't do that in er? I do it.
>>737825390vibes aren't evidence.
>>737821146It's like a sandbag.
>>737825090how do you get filtered by the fucking crucible knights of all thingsjesus fucking christ dude
>>737825668>its trial and errorWhen your brain has no capacity to think but just to keep rolling the dice until you hit it right.Anon, that's an impairment. You can get yourself mental health disability benefits for it.
>>737825668This. There's honestly very little skill involved in these games. Only memorization. Clearly amplified by all the le epic spooks you all have to remember. Just watch a playthrough of it and you have the same 'skills' as advanced souls players
>>737821146I didn't kill boss on first try so it's artificial difficulty
>>737825397Either our experiences are wildly different, or you're being disingenuous, because each of those bosses have attacks or combos that can cancel or extend at any time in response to you pressing a button
>>737821097I'm sorry you uninstalled after getting raped by Margit OP. Maybe try gitting gud next time.
>>737825965>Implying
>>737821146when you have to air dash to get past the obstacle in the cuphead tutorial>moving in the air is not a natural and intuitive physical phenomenon in the real world, not resembling any natural movement>trial and error design to nail the timing, just keep trying until you memorize the pattern>simon says level design, you either do the air dash or fail>the ledge isn't restricted by the same rules as the player for no good reason, you can shoot the ledge and nothing happens but if you get hit once you die
>>737826105the game doesn't input read, it animation reads. and that's important minutia because you can use that to bait and space or create a window. that's also how it works for the player. you start the flask animation to heal on neutral against a crucible knight it will do the thrust attack as a punish. you do it from a certain distance and you can make it whiff. if you're in pvp and someone heals at neutral in front of you what do you do? you do a running r1 to punish. you try to spam a ranged attack against a lion at neutral and it evades over and over. you have someone spamming glintstone pebble on you in pvp and you roll it every time. it's all the same design.
>>737821539>Overuse of the exact same ways to cheaply chunk the player's HP bar, such as tucking enemies scripted to grab/combo in dead angles next to doors even when it makes no sense for the area, placing items on ledges with enemies hidden nearby to push you offThis is perfectly fine. It forces you to stay alert in a dangerous environment. You should know better than to carelessly approach a shiny seemingly unguarded chest.
>>737825978Unironically yes. The game's combat is deliberately designed to be simple to level the playing field. The difficulty comes from trial and error and the player is expected to overcome challenges through experimentation and persistence. That's the core of these games.
>>737821146>what is artificial difficulty?If only OP had posted a video that supported the topic we might know what he meant.
>>737826792yeah if only that happened maybe the question wouldn't have been asked.
>>737821146Soulslikes
>>737821097It is really revealing how many simpletons think this is some kind of a gotcha. They will literally pace left and right stressed out of their mind while the boss charges its attack for ten seconds instead of hitting it about seven times during that while.Have you people really hardwired yourselves into believing you are legally only allowed to hit a boss when it is kneeling down and wheezing after an attack, preferably with glowing arrows pointing at it and an NPC off screen shouting "NOW IS YOUR CHANCE!"?
>>737821097Souls does some inherently trial and error attacks but delayed attacks are not trial and error. you can tell the boss is about to bring the weapon down because they take a step forward and their shoulders relax. I have dodged multiple delayed attacks the very first time i encountered them just from watching the bosses.The problem with the shitters is even when they are right about something they are wrong because they dont know the difference between what is trial and error ("artificial difficulty") and what is something that simply requires an iq above 90 to intuit.
>>737826842>maybe
I love these types of action RPG's, but I will say this method of difficulty is growing stale. Demon's Souls was very hard for most people at the time because "soulslike" wasn't an established genre, but now that people consume soulslike combat regularly there's an arms race to keep the games challenging to experienced players. Now bosses move so unnaturally that you basically can't trust your muscle memory at all.
>>737824059>Difficulty was always a component, but never the star.I think this is what's been lost in translation for the series as a whole.You can compare the starting areas (after the tutorial) in DS1 and DS3 for a good example.In DS1:>enemies telegraph their attacks well but hit hard, making the player fish for openings or strike first>run into the spear hollows that push you to try parrying to get an opening>slowly builds up to enemies that can parry and attack a bit faster>each encounter is a learning opportunity that tries to teach the player an important lesson in combat, including when to avoid itWhile in DS3:>teleport onto a wall full of undead>immediately running in to dogs and enemies that can quickly 2shot you>parrying enemies still has a chance to deal full damage to the player even if it lands and you get the riposte>no shield with good physical damage resistance>assassin hollows swing fast enough to stun lock you and show up in the second guard tower, with 2 attacking you the same time another large axe hollow does>knight launches into a fast combo the moment you get in melee distance, and any time they're not swinging they have their shield up>after you get through all that, the game spawns the second phase from the tutorial boss again as a regular enemy for you to fight on a tiny roofDS1 feels like exploring a dangerous world where you need to pay attention to every fight you get in to.DS3 feels like exploring a world specifically designed to kill you repeatedly until you memorize every inch of it or outlevel the enemies there.
>>737827593True, I don't think there's anywhere left to go after ER without abandoning the mechanical simplicity and trial and error arcadey design. I could take maybe one more game in this style but I hope Miyazaki does something different and puts this formula to rest for a while.
>>737827593An entire "new" genre of games where the difficulty comes from retards not understanding its not level scaled like the vast majority of other modern RPGs and beat their faces off of encounters they're underleveled/undergeared for. 70% functional illiteracy rate in adults is an entirely believable statistic.
>>737822232Calling them feints is such a cope since they don't actually present any meaningful mix-up or mindgame, just an arbitrary timing that's the same every fucking times. A one-off, static gotcha.
>>737821423The way he looks at the camera gets me every time. What a fat fucking loser.
>experience is... falling for the dev's rusessoulstards were kaizofags all along
>>737821097This feels more like e33 than souls. Souls sometimes had bullshit buildup, e33 exclusively has bullshit buildups
>>737821146Artificial difficulty is when people online seethe if you criticize a game's way of handling difficulty.
>>737827593In my experience most of the difficulty in old games comes from the fact that the game wants/forces you to play slow and you in turn get impatient and sloppy. Almost all my deaths were because I got greedy and tried to rush.Elden Ring might be harder but at least those bosses are done in 2-3 minutes. Much more satisfying to retry/replay imo
>>737828994E33 has so many audio cues. I was perfect parrying everything towards the end. Its pretty mindless so idk if the comparison works. Also in ER your positioning in 3d space can subtly affect the timings and that's not going on in E33.
>>737821097Juat admit you cant handle it and move on. Its clearly not your game friend.
>>737821146Trial and error. If the game has not adequately prepared you for a better than 50/50 chance of overcoming the next challenge then it is just overtuned garbage. Like 5,000 hours of Fromsoft game experience cannot give you a 1% chance of beating Malenia on your first try.
>>737821097Kek
>>737829278>audio queuesIt was disappointing finding this out. I played the whole game with the volume very low and in only one ear so I missed all of them.
>>737829351Artificial difficulty was used originally to refer to the bullshit ganks or the entirety of sen's fortress. Applying it to boss mechanics sounds strange to me. Why would anyone play a souls game to first try every boss? Sounds boring.
Being able to beat a fromsoft boss the first time you fight it means the boss was too weak.People the complain about trial and error just want easier games.
>>737823302No it's not fine, rolling into attacks is retarded.
>>737822232>you expect the feint and don't roll right away >enemy immediately cancels into a different, much quicker attack you should have rolled through
>>737821097That's an easy attack to dodge, there's a huge tell when the hammer reaches his leg and starts to move in the opposite direction.
>>737821146One type is getting thwarted, harmed, or killed in the game by "act of God" type things. For example, a trap that you can't possibly detect without having prior knowledge of it. Or, for example, trial and error based combat, where enemy attacks can't be reliably avoided without prior experience with them, due to deliberately misleading telegraphs and/or faster than human reaction time (or input lag) actual attacks, or bullshtit hitboxes. Ie:, OP's vid.The other type would be just stat-boosting enemies to a level that can't be justified by in-game logic, making them damage sponges and do unreasonable amounts of damage.
>>737821097Stockholm Syndrome.
>>737821097Gesundheit.
>>737821097>it's 2026 and shitters are STILL getting filtered by delayed attacks because they can't control their impulsesGut. Gud. No, seriously. You need to fucking git gud. There's just no excuse to crying this fucking much about such an easy fucking mechanic.Get good at pvp and delayed attacks will stop being a problem.>>737821146It's a buzzword to make casuals feel better about being shit.
>>737821146Pseud term made by retards who think they’re to smart to just call a game unfair or bullshit with it’s challenge
>>737821712Trans kid, you meant trans kid during trans reading hour .
>>737822034>guy swings axes forward>roll backwards (where the axe is heading)have you tried rolling to the side
>>737821146Back in the 80s it was putting as much bullshit ennemies spawning next to your character and terrible platforming to make you shit as much coins as possible into the arcade booth and it worked tremendously.Nowadays it's "hard mode" with just increased hp and damage for every ennemy NPC without ever thinking about balance because devs design the game with normal mode in mind. Sometimes normal mode is inadvertently piss easy and harder mode are the most pleasing way to play the game like in ME2 or Dead Space.Bloated hp pool is usually one of the most common example of artificial difficulty. MHfag like me have thousands of hours on classic MH games but none of us who are sane will defend some G ranks monster or lv120 in MH4 who's only difficulty are hitting them for 50 minutes straight without interruption.
>>737821097Retards here will defend it but truth be told those games have become retarded arms race. From is doing more delayed roll catch attacks and reading inputs for the game for it to have any semblance of difficulty which results in okay game for people who follow series and shitfest for people just entering.Most of the bosses in Elden ring aren't hard even with that fuckery, but would I call it fun? They have no idea what to do with formula going further for fights to be more engaging for veterans of the series.I completed Elden ring on release and the only fights I remember as cool or good are Godrick, Malenia and Radahn and maybe Malekith and Loretta rest was so forgettable that I only remembered them after looking at achievements.They tried to shake it up with jump but it was ultimately pointless and if they won't have any brilliant idea next souls game will be even more spastic.I think Sekiro is the best recen game of From for the time being and I will die on this hill. At least it had fresh ideas instead of making demon souls for 5th time but more difficult
>>737821097This is more people who attempt to make Souls-like games. 0 understanding of what makes a game difficult, they just try to trick you. Lies of P does that shit and people praise it for unknown reason
>>737838709im fucking stealing this.
Fromsoft games are some of the worst games I've ever been subjected to and I will never be ableto fathom the love and hype they recieve.
>>737821097The npc awkwardly walking around after killing the player gets me every time
>>737821097Series has been about punishing returning players since DaS2.They literally fell for the Dark Souls is very hard meme themselves (I blame the PR faggots for this)
>>737821097>>737822332genuine question, is there a souls-like game that leans into these goofiness and silliness elements? I'd love to see one made, like a Black Baby kind of vibe with more technical complexity
>>737840264>They have no idea what to do with formula going further for fights to be more engaging for veterans of the series.They literally do, that's what Nightreign is.
>>737821146It's when the game kills me without my consent
>>737842447Sorry, I don't play multiplayer games but as far as I checked they didn't introduce new mechanics, unless I'm mistaken
>>737821146Imagine playing a game but someone keeps slappnng the controller while you're playing.
>>737821097See, if you played these games since Demon's Souls then there's not a lot of things left aside from delayed swings and combo swings these bosses can do because perfect i-frame dodges will eventually trump every attack that's thrown out so tricking the player from fucking up their roll is a pretty natural conclusion in turning these fights harder.When circle strafing and backstabbing was so trivial in Dark Souls they made enemies to expressly say fuck off to that tactic in Dark Souls 2.
>>737821146Artificial difficulty is Elden ring because it was coded to make the bosses delay their attacks in mid swing to hit you after your roll because they have input reading. That’s why if you stand still the bosses won’t even attack. Shit game.
When a game has nothing to do with your skill or reflexes and relies on dying to learn patterns, that is artificial difficultyEvery game should be able to be beaten without dying if the player is good enough
>>737821146In a souls game's case it's the fact that they refuse to make any input cancellable
>>737823159>but DS2 has a broken roll hitbox tit doesn't
>>737823182the later games give you overpowered rolls and then design enemy animations to be unintuitive so you still get hit by them even if your rolls are OPThat's why people are rightfully complaining. it's designed backwards. Nay, scratch that: it's NONdesigned
>G-git gudLmao
>>737844416memorization is a skill; its just boring fucking game design.novelty is what made des, ds1, and ds2 great.
>>737821097>recently finally played through all Fromsoft souls games>loved first game,second was fine and third was bland as fuck >elden ring is basically spastic AoE 15 hit tracking combo on every bossDo people really like that shit? Old games were graceful mechanically and when it comes to enemy moveset design while Elden Ring is straight up retarded lmao.
>/v/ is still, to this day, triggered by Soulsbourne gamesJust admit you suck at them and get on with your life>>737822034>guy swings axe>you don't roll to the sideyou could also run away from the big chungus mcdungus ultra combo, too>>737822207>fights bosses with lock on enabledlmao you learned nothing from the Darkeather Midir fight>>737823175>For the glory of Ashina!!!
>>737846782slower high-commitment combat is typically more interesting
>>737822034Nioh 3 started adding a bunch of this bullshit too.So fucking gay.
>>737826696It's input reading. It isn't reliant on LOS
>>737840357And the people who have attempted to make the most are Fromsoft
>>737846846Im an action fag so I disagree i like my animation cancels and fast pace but as I said i geniuenly have no idea why people praise Elden Ring so much. Oh and Sekiro was turbo kino best From game by very far in my opinion.
>>737846782No you are exactly right. 1 and 2 are good and ER is overhyped garbage. Haven’t played 3
>>737821539You're gonna really make the elden sisters mad with this trvthnvke.
>>7378471313 has basically no identity by itself and is mostly grey and brown outside of irithyll and archdragon peakbut it has the best bosses in the series
>>737846326The rolls have been nerfed, if anything, to encourage people to use other options which have been buffed to compensate.Equip a shield and you'll see that the game will make much more sense.
>>737822435there's a difference between designing a zone to trap unaware player's (sen's fortess) and just placing 'fuck you' mines every where just to be a douche dev.
>>737823090your shield to block? your superman dive? your earplugs? your intelligence to not sit under a roar spammer's ass?>>737823051only if you mean mon hun from 4ult and earlier. gens and forth are pure shit.
>>737823139Not dodging TOWARDS the big sword being swung in your direction.
>>737823175I truly hate how gens raped this series and you niggers cheered for it and world.
>>737821097they found ONE game they were good at and now they are hopelessly engaged with it
>>737821539>Artificial difficulty is when the level design keeps me on my toesactual subhuman retard
>>737823196>The problem is that once you understand that, the game is not that hard, it's fair.Your issue and From's issue is that you faggots think this is somehow a problem to begin with.It isn't.
Big enemies should be slow from our perspective.
>>737823815always been that way. just like claymore in ds1
>>737821146Boss reduce HP to 50% in one hit.Boss has massive weapons.Boss has no weakness.Boss is immune to stun.
>>737821097Isn't this just Margit?
>>737846782>Old games were graceful mechanically and when it comes to enemy moveset designlol
>>737846846Not sure I fully agree.I utterly loathe modern mon hun (gens, world, rise, wilds). It's faster paced, it's more over the top. Less deliberate.But I hate it because it simply is NOT what Monster Hunter is. The series completely bastardized itself for wider appeal which fizzled out rapidly.MEANWHILE. God Eater from its inception was designed to be faster, more over the top, anime like, and such.I find God Eater3 to be a really great game myself, but GE is sticking to its core design choices. I could as easily play Mon Hun Dos, 3ult, or GE3, despite the first two being slow, deliberate and commitment based abd GE is less so.And this is the issue with Dark Souls/ER. Dark Souls started out as slow and deliberate and sorta stopped being that way by 3. And while ER is a fully new IP and could try new ideas...the player character doesn't actually have the tools or speed to keep up with the bosses and their more over the top attacks. It's disjointed. Enemies, bosses, and player characters all need to be slow and comitment based or faster and reactive.Hell Bayonetta and DMC are very fast combat games and well adored.Combat speed on its own is NOT the issue. It's making changes that don't mesh well together or throw out series conventions to chase a player base that doesn't actually exist.
>>737821539Bro the idea of Dark Souls is basically boiled down to the YOU DIED screen.You are supposed to get fucked and get mad.Not many games can illicit such an emotional response from you.On the opposite side aswell, say when you finally beat Malenia for example. You feel on top of the fucking world.
>>737821097It honestly wouldn't be as bad if it didnt have hardhoded randomized attack speeds for every animation
>>737848398Yes. He filters boomers and their embarrassing reaction time and memory pretty hard.
>>737849381Good thing it doesn't then
>>737822949iframes are fun and they make poor reaction time shitters seethe.
>>737832430Just headcanon it as you're jumping over the attack. The only difference is it isn't some AAAA studio forced animation and it looks like the attack is clipping through you. You people have no imagination.
>>737821146>what is artificial difficulty?Faggots who unironically limit and lock themselves from mechanics within the game with the justification of, "You didn't beat the game."
>>737821146Nioh 2 underworld depths. Regular mobs have like 100k HP and do 5k-15k damage on light melee attacks.
>>737850596that's not what it is at all
>>737821539TRVKE
>>737821274>>737821385>>737821539>>737821690>>737844272>>737846979>input reading is... le bad!But why?
>>737821097The shitty walk animation right after cracked me up.
>>737822332lmao
>>737846963Nioh 2 had some of it too. Some of the special attacks would have the enemy hold them for 5 seconds and then jump across the room in 2 frames to hit you. The only strategy is to use brute form if close, phantom form if you have the reflexes of a cat, or feral form if you you're good at guessing.
>>737828473If it's the same every time and there's no mindgame involved then why do players get hit by them so much?
>>737833662Enemies can't cancel attacks in Elden Ring
>>737851062It makes it feel very "video-gamey". I think it would be better if they had something like three attacks that would be selected at random when they respond to the input rather than the exact same attack every time. It would go a long way to making the fight feel more natural/dynamic and like it's an actual opponent reacting to your actions rather than a computer going "if x then y"
>>737851531>It makes it feel very "video-gamey"Well it is a video game after all> I think it would be better if they had something like three attacks that would be selected at random when they respond to the input rather than the exact same attack every timeThat's how it already works. If the boss input reads you while you're far from them they'll do a lunging attack, if they input read you while you're close to them they'll do a close range attack. When Malenia input reads sometimes she will do her stab, sometimes she'll do her grab, sometimes she'll start her light attack combo. Depends on where the player is standing and what moves Malenia used recently.
>>737823051>Bamco markets the game as 2hard4u>Ruins the discourse foreverThe premise isn't "lol u mad" it's "the human spirit is indomitable." It's not some kaizo shit just because you can run into skeletons at level 10. Worse, the marketing surely made people think "oh yeah, this is intentional" and keep bashing their heads against a brick wall instead of looking around or giving into the wonder of exploration, which is rewarding.
>>737850948Literally is. You artificially make the game more difficult for yourself by imposing an artificial definition and restriction of what it means to "beat" the game.
>>737823257Elden Ring literally has PvP you fucking retard.
>>737851062I'm not one of the people you're responding to (ontologically superior of course) but like anything it's about context. When the Night Rider sprints at you because he sees you healing? Makes perfect sense to me, I'd do the same thing. When Isshin sheathes his sword and does one of two attacks based on how close you are to him? A little videogamey, takes away from the fantasy. Maybe it's because I play fighting games (see previous parenthesis btw) but I'd like it if really skilled enemies had some level of adaptation. It'd be annoying if every grunt was punishing your success, but Isshin absolutely should trick you for trying the same thing twice. He should pull the gun out earlier on NG+ at least.
>>737852123artificial difficulty is what normies cried when they entered sen's fortress for the first time. It's a criticism of the game itself not the fanbase.
>>737851752I mean that even within a given range, they shouldn't do the same attack. Malenia always does her hop then stab attack at mid-range in phase one. The Godskins always do their fireball throw. I think making them switch it up would be more fun.
>>737821097>>737821146thread themehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Rz57sd2dg
>>737852264Fair enough, I agree
>>737821097Thanks for the laugh, faggot.
>>737821146Your mammalian pattern recognition center has an intuitive understanding of how the world works. It knows big things can go fast but big things need a lot to stop. It knows little things can quickly go fast and quickly stop. It knows heavy hulking heaving bulk doesn't start fast, get slow, then go fast again.That's the artificial difficulty of modern soulsshit. The physically impossible abuse of physics and the human brain that isn't wired to interpret a world where a two ton gigahammer can magically turn off the rules of reality so you move press circle too "early" when everything in 5 billion years of evolution tells you when you can dodge.
it makes them feel tough even though they're just pressing buttons bing bing wahoo
>>737851382No, they just have two attacks that start exactly the same, only one is a delayed to catch you rolling and the other is immediate to punish you for not rolling.
>>737853053Feel free to give me an example because I'm pretty sure that's not a thing
>>737852868Realism doesn't belong in video games and I'm sorry you found the game so frustrating that you had to post this.
>>737822034missing the two sweep attacks in a row, then it leaps like 50 miles away so you cant properly followup
>>737823182This. All the people seething about getting punished for very poorly timed rolls in ER are just exposing themselves for trying to play the game like its still DS1 and refusing to engage with other movement/defensive/attack options that are often much better than rolling in many situations.
>>737852868if you have 3 digit IQ instead of 2, you can learn how to recognize patterns in video games which are different from real life. i hope this helps.
>>737821097>he got filtered by Margit THIS hard
>>737824428Is Lords of the fallen a good game despite that? Thinking of buying it on sale.
>>737821146When Lobotomy Corp starts to error because of memory leakage >B-but it makes a certain fight easier The fact that some people even bring that up as a lukewarm defense is disgusting
>>737821423Love DS2 so much, unironically and uncontrarianly>>737821534Wrong
>>737824450>hitboxes are not 1:1 with the sprites/modelsYes if you play Kuma or Panda or Fahk you deserve to be hit by highs while crouching
Artificial difficulty is anything you can't reasonably be expected to beat the first time you encounter it regardless of skill level.
>>737838962I just tried he switched directions in midair
>lock on camera>target jumps over your head
>>737851152Nioh 2 definitely had some of them. But Nioh 3 eventually filtered me. I think it was some point after the ice chapter after the capitol where I beat a boss after seven attempts and realised the only difference between the first attempt where I got bodied, and the seventh attempt where I won, is that I had memorized all the stupid delays in attack animations, and that the last seven bosses had all been the same thing.
>>737846782"Prepare to die edition" was a mistake.
>>737853232>Optional heated seating
>>737821712Not only do I prefer it, I'll say they should have gone a step further and say they should have randomized which chests are mimics.
>>737821097souls games aren't actually that hard, they're just the most accessible game genre that isn't so easy babies can beat it.no one but mentally ill players enjoy games like the kaizo games.If souls fans literally couldn't make progress because it was too difficult they wouldn't be playin the game.
