Why is MMO still ruled by old games?Why can't new MMO be good?
I'm making the best mmo right now
>>737830978Any live service genre really only has room for like 2 or 3 front runners.
>>737830978Because mmos are built on sunk cost and where your friends play. Nobody wants to leave and start from 0 with an mmo your friends might not join, and that might just die out from lack of players and money.
>>737830978sunk cost
>>737830978You know how there's a new Call of Duty every year? Would you call Call of Duty from 2003 the same Call of Duty people are playing today? Because that's the difference between WoW in 2004 and WoW in 2026.
>>737831114There's a new season multiple times per expansion. WoW Classic where you start from scratch is insanely popular. Zero sunk cost.
>>737830978they cost hundreds of millions to make and are just a reskin of wow or xiv, the age of new mmos is overlotro was kino
>>737830978Instead of trying to be everything that WoW is they need to carve out their own niche, just like FFXIV did with becoming the tranny game.
It would probably take a GTA-tier budget to come up with something comparable
>>737831529>they cost hundreds of millions to makeno
>>737831713It does if you want to bait all the addicts from the other games. The only other choice is appealing to a new generation of gamers and the current ones are all stuck in F2P hell
>>737830978every mmo that is f2p is shitting the bed in under one year. wow and ff14 have a sub based model and this is why they are still around, but younger people wont get into them because zoomers dont like that.
Because the only people who play this genre are 35+ year old manchildren who just want the nostalgia. So obviously they'll just play whatever they did 20 years ago.
>>737831050Why?
>>737830978They've already got years worth of content, and an already established and invested playerbase.New MMOs will have to start from zero, and as such, won't have the budget immediately to make something on the same level as the existing popular ones.
>>737830978
>>737830978You can say that about every game genre. This isn't exclusive to MMOs.
>>737831114This
>>737831206Wow classic is not popular lmao
>>737837880This.
XIV came out not that long ago
>>737830978The old MMOs are shit.The problem is that MMOs are really hard and expensive to make. So, new MMOs either try to copy the "tried and true" formulas of the garbage modern MMOs, and fail because no one wants to play off-brand WoW over WoW itself, or they're trying to revitalize the genre from the shitheap that it has become, but die in the womb because they run out of time and/or money (or the company implodes or is bought out, etc)This isn't helped by the fact that the bulk of the "Modern MMO" audience are a periphery demographic of dipshits who don't even like RPGs or MMOs as a concept, as is evidenced by the direction WoW has been going in and the weird success of FFXIV as a "WoW alternative" when its whole draw is a bunch of singleplayer bullshit like cutscenes and a "Chosen One" storyline. Investors aren't going to get that there's a large audience of alienated and potential MMO fans and are going to insist that you make a game that appeals to these dipshits.
>>737830978all new MMOs are some form of inferior copy or barely even an MMOthat, plus 90% of them are ploys by the greedy, and if it doesn't immediately result in massive profits, they get snuffedonly the established mmos stand a chance in this ecosystem
>>737830978Because they all have shitty combat. WoW is the only MMO with actual fluid combat. The games who could be good, always have shitty action combat or whatever the fuck slow, choppy combat Final fagntasy has. If SWTOR had fluid tab targeting combat like WoW, it would be the best MMO in existence.
>>737830978FFXIV isn't even relevant lil bro
>>737840764>large audience of alienated and potential MMO fansNo, that audience is small and niche, which is why every attempt at a sandbox mmo ends up the same way.
>>737831556>>737841290Don’t you have a pride event to be attending?
>>737830978>Why can't new MMO be good?no clue
>>737840216>13 years old>16 if counting 1.0
>>737830978>WoW>Wow with a different nameWhy do consumers only want boring tab target shit?
>>737831081>where your friendsLolLmao even
>>737830978MMOs suck and the only people still playing have latched onto nostalgia or onto very specific aspects of games that already exist. Most newer MMOs just attempt to replicate the skinnerbox aspect and ignore the rest, making flashy combat and assuming that will be enough. Go and play Runescape, Everquest, WoW, or FF14 and see the story or lore aspects to all the quests and plot beats as you play the game. Now go play the latest MMO release and you'll see a generic "you are the hero legend" plot and a ton of repeatable quests that are completely irrelevant.New MMOs don't want to make MMOs. They just want to copy what's already out there and get money from it. The problem is, they only understand the surface level of what is out there, so that's what they always end up copying. It's a lot easier to make a flashy combat system and then require 9000 wolfass quests to level up over making a setting and a story and hoping that players will see it under the bland generic 2000s graphics.It probably doesn't help that everything is now free-to-play and monetized instead of just a monthly subscription to pay for everything.
>>737830978why would they gonna waste money to make mmo if they cant do p2w
MMO's are a humongous time investment by design, in an age where even online-only games die fucking days after release, nobody wants to spend the time if the servers are just going to be shut down 2 years from now.The only MMO's people trust with their time investment are ones that have had established, stable (or at least high enough for it not to be a problem) playercounts.It's sad, there's so much potential for a HUGE audience but it's almost impossible to break into the genre.
zero innovation in the last 20 years
>>737830978>>737840764>>737842569why is it that whenever mmos are being talked about it's always just ffxiv, wow, and runescape? do you fags only play whats popular? cause that's what it seems to be the bigger issue here. meanwhile here i am, enjoying some City of Heroes. a mmos that's older then all your precious "WoW"
>>737830978The mmo fad has long since been overSame with mobasTeam shooters and battle royales are on their way outNow is the time of friendslop
>>737830978Ashes of Creation is going to kill both of these btw.
>>737831610>>737831872A few developers is enough to make a few mobs and a zone per day and have an MMO of content in a month or two. You could make trees choppable in a day.
>>737841412What A+ sandbox MMO had launched in the last 20 years?
>>737845363Black Desert
>>737842343New World had action combat and tanked.
>>737830978WoW and FFXIV are entrenched in the market.Any newcomer tries to copy these games, but without the crucial backing of a fucking absolutely massive corporation. If you have a choice Game and Temu Game people are just going to play one of the OGs once the new game fad wears off.It's still hilarious in a tragic way that the only fucking thing to come out to meet the need for a WoW classic type of game was a re-release of fucking WoW classic.
>>737842343Players want the ability to control the world.
>>737845451>Korean game.>Leveling.>Bind-on.>Enhancement system.Does this game even have an economy?
>asking this question for the gorrilionth timeIf you aren’t tired of this conversation by now just go to r/mmo it’s all those fucking faggots talk about. There is nothing new to add.
>>737844475>why is the most popular (X) always talked about when people ask about genre (X) is a part of?Are you actually retarded?
Because with live service games, you do not just have to be better than your competition (which they already struggle to do in the first place); you have to be so much better that you convince people drop potentially decades worth of investment. Providing a marginally better game, does not cut it as many have found out.
>>737845784There is no need for a wow classic like game, as evidenced by wow classic itself failing to retain people even with the insane nostalgia boost
>>737842569>Go and play Runescape, Everquest, WoW, or FF14 and see the story or lore aspects to all the quests and plot beats as you play the game. Now go play the latest MMO release and you'll see a generic "you are the hero legend" plot and a ton of repeatable quests that are completely irrelevant.What are you talking about retardXiv is literally you are the Warrior of LightEQ and Runescape are way less popular and WoW (like xiv) was riding on being an existing IP for its generic as fuck story
>>737830978im gonna have to ask u to be more specific because my answer is>chink slop is made for chinks not westerners>ncsoft is koreaboo slop>some indie mmos on kickstarter which are obviously scamsso technically if youre a chink youre probably eating good on MMOs but if you mean why dont westerners like new mmos its because nobodys making anything other than expansions for their older games like runescape gw2 and ffxivwhen arenanet releases guild wars 3 i will buy it and tell you if modern mmos suck how about that
>>737846912this argument applies to games in general desuyoure not competing with someone on your level youre competing with literally microsoft who owns a 20+ year old game that has 500 expansions a billion dungeons 10000 titles 1488 pvp seasons and 6900 mountsat least with a live service shooter or a moba or something your competition is somewhat on your level, but with mmos youre not only in the most time consuming genre where most people regardless of how much of a life they have just don't have more than 24 hours in a daybut you're also competing with games that have standing power which is important in an mmoone thing i didnt like it the wow private server community is pitching a fit that turtle died, and its because they dont remember the times where servers would spin up and shut down so fast you couldnt grow attached to anything. these are the core mmo players that want their achievements and more importantly purchases to remain in game practically forever
>>737830978People won't buy a subscription for a new MMO, only one they're familiar with and/or have invested time into. New MMOs need to be F2P to compete but will eventually turn into skinner boxes because other than monthly subscription that's the only realistic way to fund a MMO. AoC rug pulled because even though they were being funded by people who believed in the game they must have known those people weren't representative of the market.
>>737848515i always bring up guild wars 2 when people talk about things like stop killing games and how it relates to subscription mmoshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-_06Acj8Ythis was actually pretty innovative for the time, even though gw2 eventually went f2p and ffxiv has their even better f2p modelbut being able to pay 60 dollars once and play forever was considered really cool for the timesadly ross forgot that important bit of history and said oh actually that means you purchased the game literally forever, not just paying your sub up front
every new MMORPG does 2-3 things better than WoW but 15 things worse>pic related
>>737848903amazon is such a disgrace i stg
>>737830978Basically every single (modern) MMORPG is the same, so people prefer the ones they're familiar with
Anyone else remember Archeage? lol
>>737849086my friend and i were looking for an mmo to play like 8 or so years agowe werent gonna drop money on an mmo initially so we were looking for good f2p mmosarcheage was one, cant remember what other one we tried but both of them died, and then we tried gw2 and we still play it 8 years later
>>737830978because it's a coke and pepsi world nigga go ahead and be mr pibb if you want
>>737830978Because you can't find the combination of willingness to innovate/take risks and marketing power to draw in enough players. At the same time, no one copying existing formulas will invest what's necessary to provide a much content as those two mainstays, meaning people will always go back to those two. At least that's my guess since I've never played an mmo.
>>737830978A few reasons>Unwilling to start smallEvery new MMO wants to be the next big thing, and tries to start off as some massive incredible world that pulls in billions of players at the start, requiring tons of money that it can't afford for a player base that doesn't exist yet.>Lack of innovationMMOs aren't about mechanics, they're social games first and foremost, but when you just copy another game there's no point in people playing that game except its community, and the community doesn't exist yet. >Stifling interactionsIf an MMO is going to moderate chat to an extreme extent early on, it's smothering the baby in the crib. Weird conversations are needed to be memorable, people need to be unafraid to speak.
>>737831050Yeah because theyre all the same shit, make a real mmo old school style with todays standards for graphics and youll get a whole new generation addicted
>>737849086I played it on the ORIGINAL release with some /v/ clan, I remember the zones looking nice and the sailing stuff was cool, but it was just a generic asian MMO like every other one.There was one zone that was a forest with weird colored trees, maybe white but I don't remember. There was a small NPC hub in the middle of the forest and I just sort of hung out and looked around for a couple hours, it was one of the only times in an MMO I just really enjoyed the scenery and atmosphere.Also breaking the airships was fun
>>737837531I would love a single player RPG that just had regular content additions and paid expansions. I don't understand how this model can't or doesn't work.
>>737830978When you make a new mmo not onlt do you have to make a good game you have to have content to compete with 20 years of dev time.It is this simple.
>>737831206The sunk cost is in the knowledge, experience, and familiarity.
>>737849565doesnt bethesda and fromsoft do this
>>737849661yeah its the same way with wow private servers you chase fresh all the time but youre still mazed by the same game
>>737845218i dont think you understand the challenges involved in actually serving a "massively" multiplayer online game to scale
>>737837531I've never seen a greentext understand the MMO problem so well. Underrated.
>>737849851I tried classic when it came out. It felt a mix of fresh and nostalgia. But not necessarily a good kind of nostalgic. After thinking about it I realized the game (that used to be a mystery when I first played it all those years ago) is now effectively 'solved'. There's nothing new anymore. Just the grind.I made it until level 30 until I quit.
>>737830978mmos no longer feel like dynamic worlds. theyre just chore simulators with some lazy mobs that walk in circles. i tried final fantasy and it was some of the laziest shit ive ever seen.this is in part because people have grown up and are used to the formula.if someone can make a game that feels like theres an actual "world" taking place within it maybe something interesting will come up. maybe something will come along with utilizing AI to accomplish this sort of dynamic gameplay. but it will probably take much longer than expected for anyone to even try it because its uncharted territory and no one wants to take a risk with games, they only want to produce the same shit which guarantees a profit
>>737850204thats what ruined runescape for me people grind for the sake of grind and dont socialize that much, in fact they often get extremely toxic when you dare talk to them
>>737849252>MMOs aren't about mechanics, they're social games first and foremost, but when you just copy another game there's no point in people playing that game except its community, and the community doesn't exist yet.I disagree. MMO PvP has really high skill expression, and a game could have an esports scene if it forewent leveling. Also, a game can have a really good economy and worldbuilding. These three things could mog WoW and FFXIV.
>>737850095>Code and assets.I don't think what you posted is a rebuttal.
>>737830978You see the thing is MMOs are a genre that’s very hard to break into because most of the existing fan base is already entrenched in one of the old big ones and they have an incentive to hate any new entry because they are already so invested time wise into their current MULTI DECADE OLD GAME that they do not ever want to move on or else all that time was wasted.When news broke that Arenanet was working on a guild wars 3 I saw multiple posts from people not wanting it to be true because they had spent so much time and money on gw2 that they feel like would be wasted. And to be honest as an original Guild Wars player, I wish they never made that dogshit sequel so I’m part of the problem.
>>737830978It's a mix of a lot of new MMOs being shit and people that play old MMOs having schizophrenia and think they're doing all of this socializing, grinding, and exploration. So when a new MMO comes out and actually requires some or all of that the illusion shatters so they go back to their comfort zone. This more so only happens with WoW players though.
>>737851876I think this is bullshit because every garbage MMO has a massive influx of new players when it launches. All streamers play it for a few days whether sponsored or not, people are that desperate for a new MMO.But then it turns out the underlying systems are all garbage or uninspired, because a good MMO is very expensive to make and publishers know this so they plan from the start for it to be a 2 - 3 year cashgrab. Almost all these new titles (mostly korean shit) don't fail by mistake, it's by design.You mistakenly assume that if GW3 came out they would shut down GW2 servers but that is not the case. Those players wouldn't lose their money, servers would still be running, and I guarantee you IF the new game is good most would willingly move over to GW3. But arenanet doesn't have the budget nor talent to make a new game, it's all baseless rumours for years and years. At least GW1 has had a resurgence albeit a small one but just goes to prove people really are not as tied to a specific game as one may think.
>>737851464>MMOs aren't about mechanics, they're social games first and foremost,And this is correct. If you want a new MMO to be popular the most important thing to nail is the "second life" social aspect. Content runs out, it always does now more than ever due to how quickly information spreads. You absolutely must convince people to log in for reasons besides content.And guess what all new MMOs lack? Social incentives and roleplaying features. You can't even play dress-up in any of them because all the skins are paid or simply non existent. I've never uninstalled an MMO quicker than booting up korean slop and seeing your armour doesn't change when you equip a different level item. Not to mention the lack of persistent worlds etc.
>>737830978because only old men like MMOslil zoomies dont have attention spans for grinds
FFXI mogs
I quit after dawntrail. Didn't do any extra stuff. Should I come back for evercold? The evolved combat is intriguing. But only if I can play evolved roles at low level too. I just want classes to go away...
>>737830978What do these two have in common?>established franchiseThat's all it takes. It's why the riot mmo is going to be a force when it finally starts.
>>737854515>Should I come back for evercold?Idk.>But only if I can play evolved roles at low level too.They said they wanted evolved jobs to have at least a full kit by level 50 unlike the current jobs.Or did you mean something else?
>>737840216Please stay calm and listenARR came out nearly 13 years ago
>>737830978The genre runs on nostalgia and not it's own merit. That's all it is really.
>>737854153nobody is playing an MMO to socialize in 2026 when they can just socialize on discord UNLESS theyre a tranny that gets hard off playing a slutmogged female character
>>737844475This thread is about why new MMOs seem to fail so often, not about private servers for old MMOs.
>>737841412>sandbox mmoI'm not just talking about sandbox MMOs. Even the classic themepark MMO is dead, and been replaced with whatever Frankenstein abomination the modern MMO has become.
>>737845451>Kslop
WoW is coasting off of compelling lore and world design from 20 years ago that they can cash in endless memberberries with, similar to Pokemon
I'm just waiting for GW3. I bet they're going to make it some off the wall shitty PvP focused game to separate it from GW2 though. If it's not a traditional MMO it's going to be a sad day.
>>737847590WoW Classic is a dead game, by which I mean that is an MMO without any "living" element to it. It has one batch of content and one game balance and one meta that is set in stone and based on a version of the game from decades ago. This means that WoW Classic is not like a true MMO, which retains attention through balance and content patches. Once you've gotten to Naxx, that's it. All the game has to offer and all it will ever offer. If anything, the popularity that a stagnant, unchanging game has enjoyed over the years is amazing and testament to the desire for more of this type of game.
>>737850204>After thinking about it I realized the game (that used to be a mystery when I first played it all those years ago) is now effectively 'solved'. I think this is the biggest issue with playing classic now, is that probably 80% of the playerbase has been playing the game for decades now in some form so things like PvP is completely out of the question for a new player and the endgame requires a mandatory penis inspection before anyone even thinks of bringing you with to a raid. If you picked the wrong class or spec you'll just get ignored outright.
>20 years ago the idea of playing a game with people around the country/world was still new, fun, novel, and not taken for granted>social media didn't exist, this was one of the few ways aside from forums to talk to people online>kids are playing online with people the second they get access to the internetMMOs are a dead genre and there was only a brief moment in history where they were going to be successful.
>>737855284The social aspect is the only reason to play MMOs in the modern day. If you're looking for mechanics, other games are going to be superior in every other aspect.
>>737859058no, MMOs (literally just WoW and XIV) have the premiere multiplayer PvE right now
>>737859157Do you play XIV using purely the single player tools provided? Would you play WoW as a single player game, everything else being exactly as it is?The social aspect isn't just "Idle and talk", it's actual interaction. To make a comparison, look at MMOs beyond MMORPGs. VRChat, Roblox, these are the growing MMOs of the modern day. MMORPGs need to understand that they're MMOs first, RPGs second.
