If you aren't playing as a shoto character, you aren't playing the game correctly, and you do not truly enjoy fighting games. The way of the shoto is that of the pure and honest.
The way of the ninja is far superior, you should play Ibuki instead.
>>737898039Projectiles are gay and ruin fighting games
>>737899261boy do i have a game for you
What about grapplers?
>>737899487Grapplers are goated in SFV.They're like whatever in SF6.
>>737899487Grapplers require a way to break grabs, but are otherwise fair.
>>737899621No way, if you get thrown by a command throw you deserve to lose the health.You shouldn't even be getting thrown by a character that decides the round on zoning and footsies at all. If you get thrown by a grappler, it's the basic law of the universe you lose a dedicated amount of hp. If anything, grapplers should have poison or burning effects added to their throws, so you avoid them more.
>>737899750Absolutely fucking not. Every attack type needs a counter, whether it's a block, parry, break, or dodge. Grapplers tend to have stupid amounts of hyper armor unless the devs just fucking hate them, so getting grabbed isn't a matter of if, it's when. Add on to the fact that grapplers tend to latch onto wonky hitboxes, so there needs to be a way out. Tekken has a decent grab system in that every grab type has a certain grab break.
>>737900139I don't agree. The whole point of a grappler is to teach people about how dangerous throws are. If you get thrown, you deserve to have the wind knocked out of you, especially by a grappler like Zangief or R. Mika.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQDqfNhSS3MJust look at how Goro survives with a single throw, you don't need shitty comeback mechanics in a fighting game when you create genuinely good fighters like Goro or R. Mika.https://youtu.be/dywBkM0Zlis?t=181
>>737900280You literally just proved my point on why you need breaks on throws
>>737898039I play rushdown, the fuck ur ryu gonn do against my Vega or my Cammy, bitchboy?
>>737898039So if i dont play a shoto in sf4 im playing hardmode
>>737900523We need breaks on throws because people can't break basic bread and butter combos with Blanka, and are forced to eat 50% of their health on wakeup due to level 2 supers being unblockable or just plain unreadable. You say every attack type needs a counter but you aren't feasibly correct, you're just implying that a counter would solution the dilemma without noticing where the problem comes from. Players that aren't adequately managing their resources are always gonna lose out to higher strategies, using a grappler isn't any different. If someone gets close enough to throw you, and you have six different types of projectile, it's your own fault for mismanaging your character so thoroughly. Proposing a loaded solution where they have counters only squares the problem, it doesn't subtract it. Suppose there's a counter for every throw, and every throw counter has another reversible counter, like in Tekken. Do throws do less damage in Tekken now that Chicken exists? No, throws are still very dangerous, especially with King and Armored King around.https://youtu.be/RZizdwPapUs?t=213
>>737900597Hadouken spam, probably. Then Shoryuken when you try to jump in. Like every other braindead shoto player
>>737900852That's the point though, throws should do fuckhuge damage but only if they get through. Every King and Armor King grab still has a way to break it, but it requires that you learn them.
>>737901170>>That's the point though, throws should do fuckhuge damageYou say they should do fuckhuge damage, but you also rescind that to say there should be a way out of them. I mean, if you get thrown, you deserve to lose a chunk of health regardless of whether or not you saw it coming. That's where we disagree. I don't wanna spend thirty minutes practicing chickens wondering if I could outpace my opponent's throw patters by breaking exclusive command throws. That's the same thing as implying I should practice breaking infinites or resets with Burst meter in Guilty Gear, no one wants to do that for starters; secondly, no one CAN do that.
>>737901293Of course they should do huge damage and at the same time be breakable. That's the risk/reward. It prevents you from spamming the same grab because then your opponent will (should) learn how to break it, and it rewards you for getting in close and completing the move. Should there be a baseline of damage taken for even breaking the grab? I think that can be managed, but it should definitely be far less than the full amount, maybe 30%. Like I said, everything needs a counter, you need to give the player options on how to fight back. Whether or not they use them correctly is up to the player.
>>737901618I feel like the risk is in doing the throw, and the reward is in it connecting. Once you start the reductionist logic of whether or not throws should be breakable, you lose the essence of what makes the character's moves intimidating. What if you could break Clark's throws, is he still dangerous at sweep range? Not really, I mean a small misstep could spell disaster, but it's okay if I just buffer a break or do an option select to shimmy out of his throw loop. Small hypotheticals like that make the game unplayable, and sequence the kind of logic that throws are inherently fangless.https://youtu.be/jC5VADmZdSI
>>737901794You said it yourself, King and Armor King are still dangerous in Tekken, and every single grab they have can be broken if you know how. The problem is in lazy/bad game design where there's a single button/combination to break every grab variation.
>>737899528Any game that doesn't have throw invulnerability on wakeup is dogshit.
>>737901949It's still lazy game design if the whole point of the throw is to mock the player's knowledge of the game. You said it too, throws should test the player's incentive to learn. But if the game has option selects or throw buffers, it doesn't matter how much you learn, the situation remains the same.https://youtu.be/5YaYpcKwD-s
>>737902089Every fighting game is just a series of knowledge checks, there's no way around that. The player that practices and knows more wins. That doesn't mean that there can't be outliers, but 9/10 times the more experienced player will come out on top. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be tools to defend against X type of attack just because somebody might not know about it.
>>737902505It does mean that though. More knowledge checks will always lead to a more responsible playerbase. People will take notes, and the notes will have to apply, games that have more knowledge checks will have to respond to player application and some knowledge checks will work while others will become obsolete. X should be countered by Y, but in the situation when X becomes obsolete, guess what? Y needs a new counter, and sometimes Y resets the entire argument down to Z or X again, which makes X viable as a basic choice.
archetype tier list>s tiercharge characters, rekka characters>a tiershotos, setplay characters>b tierzoners>c tierstance characters, install characters>d tiergrapplers
>>737902637That's the entire point of fighting games. Modern games are completely ruined by spectacle, unlimited combos, and 15 second ultimate moves at the press of a button, when they should be a constant back and forth. For every in, there should be an out. For every attack, a counter. That's what makes games engaging, trying to figure out your opponent instead of just spamming a flowchart combo.
>>737902940Flowcharts are the entire proof that knowledge checks have staying power and conceptual application. If I pick Ken and Ken's flowchart works in a round, it's because my knowledge of the game is extensive with Ken.
>>737903074Or it's because there are no viable counters. If someone genuinely has no idea what they're doing, they'll never win. But options matter, and getting locked into a 30 second combo that takes 80% of your health with no actual way out is fucking dull.
>>737903242But that makes no sense. Flowcharts work precisely because they run analogous to the player's knowledge of the game, not because they run perpendicular. If the readout of my playstyle is fluid, and very rational, it's because I want the game to work for me, not because I'm trying to make the game into an unplayable mess. This example is from SFIV, a game I don't even like, and it's still viable.https://youtu.be/a1ASBOHUEwI?t=68
>>737898039You dont even know what shoto means, it just comes from Shotokan Karate. Which isn;t even used in MMA because it sucks ass. Kempo and Kyokushin Karate are viable though. The only "Shoto" I will play is Akuma. Because he is not honest, often he is broken as fuck.
>>737899261play Makoto she is busted and has no projectile
>>737903456That's called bad game design. If there is no way out of a combo that can take someone from full health to staggered/dead short of them fucking up, then those are shitty devs. There's a huge difference between no options and options someone isn't aware of.
>>737903765The game's design could be bad. Strive is a good example of flowcharts having little to no report on the touch of death situation. https://youtu.be/kdgmUqmQAUk?t=289
>>737898039>don't like missing basic tools>don't like weird character gimmicksThus I only play Shotos and basic rushdown characters.
>>737904368I will toss the entire toolshed out the fucking window if I like ONE move a character has.
>>737903892I know this is high level gameplay and probably not representative of the overall playerbase, but Strive is far better in terms of defensive options than most other modern fighters. Even if it's just a generic burst that resets positions, it's something that gives an out. Even better than that would be Soulcalibur's Guard Impact, a high risk/reward parry that can be thrown out, plus the fact that SC doesn't have long combos.
>>737900139>You shouldn't even be getting thrown by a character that decides the round on zoning and footsies at all.grapplers for the last 30 years of fighting games have had some combo of massive health, the ability to erase projectiles, and moves that hit half a screen away so they can just mindlessly keep jumping into fireballs until eventually you lose the coinflip and they can 30% you with one move
>>737904651Strive's touch of death situation is insane to me. It forced me to pick characters like Anji Mito and Ky-Kiske because of how lewd the dustloops could be. Even if you block right, your opponent gets visibly angrier for your correct defensive options, almost as if they know the touch of death situation is there, but, they're angry they can't fully represent it in their game through you.
>>737902816Where do puppet characters fall under
>>737902940I disagree with this, what you're describing is samsho and not much else. Like even jabs are minus in that game and in the actual good ones oki is typically weak. But in a lot of old fighting games if you get put in blockstun you're fucked. Like look at super turbo or marvel. That's all neutral and the second someone makes contact it's over. In jojoban there's no true reversals and you're at the total mercy of your opponent on a wake up, and there's a slew of unblockables, command grabs, and guard breaks, and typically you have to rely on push block to get out.
>>737905418>reversals*wake up reversals
>>737899750>lose a dedicated amount of hpBut half your health bar over one throw like Potemkin?
>>737905648Hell yeah!
>>737904890i'd put them in b tier, they can be good or they can be complete degenerate aids
>>737898039Why have a roster then lol
