left or right?
>>737918640Man I fucking hated this on Fatal Frame 5
>>737918747Kek >go out of your way to hunt a ghost>you find an item just at the end of the map, nothing else>when you backtrack a ghost suddenly appears right where the item was>nope, you just missed it time to start a new game
>>737918640rightwait can I change my mind
>>737918640>better see what's down this side path first...
World of Warcraft seasonal PvP cosmetics.
It doesn’t even matter if there’s a point of no return. If the critical path and optional item path are indistinguishable in an otherwise linear game, it’s a shit game
I almost always go left as that is usually not the main path.
>you can't go to the other path if you go take the item
>>737918640Terrible game design thread?
>>737918640Depends. A game where you have nearly infinite resources like Silent Hill 2 I skip the item, if your resources are very limited like Silent Hill f explore every area thoroughly.
I think a good inbetween is unironically just giving you a "Point of no return Press A to confirm or B to turn back" screen
>>737920814>You feel an ominous presence.>Proceed?That is a good solution. Didn't SMT games do that?
>>737918640Right on accident, then to the title screen to load my save only to see my last save way 3 hours ago and all my autosaves are after I chose right, then to the internet where I bitch about getting locked out of an item because I progressed too far
>>737918640
>>737918640Go 90% down path left, get the impression it's the story path and go back and head down path right
>>737918902Diabolical.
I think I have special ability, my choice is always the progression one instead of treasure chest.
>>737918640>>737918902These are the same path, why draw them in two different ways?
Better check the other side in case this is the point of no return.
>>737921750You're retarded. Players are right to assume the path that stretches for long and far is the main route, so they should explore the branching path first for secrets or items. They are not the same. Op pic is an obvious coinflip, but most people, I'd say 80% would pic the shorter branch first due to the visual cue which ends up a red herring
>>737921620>>737922268Realistically, how would you solve this without yellow paint or making the game unfun and unreplayable? Missing items, hidden shit, and the breadth and depth of gameplay is what makes games replayable, if you make every path obvious then where is the fun?
>>737922761You’re don’t understand the issue or have the brain of your average shit designer. The trick is to hide the optional path or instantly put the puzzle for the reward behind it, so that if you discover it, you know that it’s not critical or instantly solve it to get the reward. People aren’t complaining about missing things, they complaining about either wasting their time, whether it’s back tracking or needing to replay it because your coin flip went wrong
>>737918902mk armaggeddon konquest mode right here
>>737922761Believe it or not, there’s a middle ground between a featureless grey corridor and a yellow paint splattered warning for retards. Imagine if designers actually put thought into how an environment looked and was structured, and it made sense for a new weapon or interesting bit of equipment to be in that particular room, within the setting of the world they’ve built.
>>737918902Let It Die
>>737918640This but two hours later the same sort of choice is presented but reversed
>look at me i am 200iq and know how to explore properly>i know that I should turn back and check the other path when it looks like one way is a point of no return>game gives a cutscene and forces you into point of no return if you so much as peak down the hallway
>>737922761yeah, like the other guy said. environmental storytelling, not hand-holding yellow map waypoints
>>737918640Right because when I started going left, my party members told me I was going the wrong way.
>>737921620MGS3?
>start going left>think I've been going for a while without finding anything so this must be the progress route and I should go back and check right for hidden items>boss fight startswhy do devs do this? do they think it's funny? are they somehow unaware of what they're inflicting on people?
>>737922761maybe devs should accept that you don't need to make players replay a 40+ hour game
>>737922761eliminate points of no return
>>737918640you are like a little baby
>>737922761like the other anon said, SMT games had a prompt whenever there was any sort of boss fight or major battlejust have the game give you a warning that there's no going back after you cross whatever line or open whatever door. it's not intrusive at all.
>>737925441A fucking prompt before a boss fight is intrusive as fuck and ruins the surprise factor are you retarded and out of your mind?? Wtf
>>737923451Finally, someone else gets it.
>>737921620deadmines?
>>737922761Optimal is via environmental storytelling, the player can probably guess the big imposing door with all the blood and skulls probably leads to a boss.The otherway is to stop the player and say something like >"you feel a impending sense of dread emanating from that menacing door, are you sure you want to continue? >Yes, I'm prepared. >No, there are a few things I have left to do.But that shit is very jarring.
>>737922761Put a bunch of supplies and a save point before big imposing doors. Make it clear that it is the story path.
>>737918640>Go to a dungeon/maze>Almost always find the exit immediately I don't know if this is a gift or a curse
>>737927069What about just "yes" and "no"
>>737923707>two pathways>On one side>You can see an item at the end of both>both paths are points of no return>game tracks item collection percentage and is purposely impossible to get 100%
>>737918640QUAD DAMAGE
Missable items are lame, by the way.
>>737927636EXCELLENT
>>737924929Add an autosave after going past the point of no return.
>>737927270Yes / NoReply to this post or your mother dies in her sleep tonight
>>737928068Suck my cock or your entire family is eaten alive by insects tonight.
>rpgmaker game clearly marks which tiles trigger a point of no return>multiple times in one playthrough i have to reload a save because i walked through them before exploring the side areasi might be retarded
>>737924929FF13 bros....
>>737921620>it's just a dead end with trash loot
>>737918640>try to explore path looking less likely to be main quest objective>fade to black cutscene, boss appears
>>737928230>You quit and reload>go the other way>theres an autosave and a significantly easier boss>the one from earlier was a missable optional boss with good loot.>cant reload because of autosave.
>>737928272>Doesnt vote>Game cant end until everyone voted>Ive saved everyones life.You're welcome stupid button pushers.
>>737928272so there's no reason to press the blue button unless you're suicidal, right? you live on red either way
>>737918902This is the sole reason that I favor objective markers in linear games.
>>737928306>Doesnt vote>since the outcomes save either red, or red and blue and you're neither, you end up dead regardless
>>737918640This fucking shit right here is why it is my entire goddamn philosophy to assess what looks like any and all "wrong paths" to take and explore those first. It is also why me and linear walk-and-talk style games do not get along.
>>737928337I'd just prefer not having gayass points of no return. Holy shit. Stop locking doors behind me or pushing me into cutscenes all the time that spit me out into the middle of nowhere. That sucks regardless of whether or not there are missable items.
>>737918640point of no return. because there might be an item there anyway.
>>737928272I would kill the person announcing this 'challenge' then reframe and repost it as >press the red button to live(guaranteed)>Press the blue button to die(maybe)
>>737918902The urge to murder is rising within me when I look at this.
>>737928317It's probably meant to be a moral dilemma or something but he failed to consider the fact that if everyone just presses the red button, then everyone will survive with no risk at all. Pressing the blue is a decision that can only come from either flawed logical reasoning or pathological altruism (but think of the poor retards who pressed blue, if i put my own life at risk then MAYBE i can save them!!!) aka mental illness.
>>737928317That, or you're retarded and fundamentally misunderstand the question. It's more likely that the blue button is seen as a way to end it all though.
>>737918902AAAJAAAAAAAHH
>>737922761The player should actually know where the fuck they're going and why instead of following corridors because that's the only thing they can do and it's a video game and that's what you do in a video game.
>>737928576>if everyone just presses the red button, then everyone will survive with no risk at all.This would never happen. With 8 billion people, some are going to press the blue button by accident or because they misunderstood the rules. By choosing the red button, you're sentencing these people to die, which makes me question your morals.
>>737928743Lowest IQ take I've seen all day.
>>737927581>game tracks item collection percentage and is purposely impossible to get 100%What game?
>>737928781NTA, but while this "dilemma" might not have intended it as such, this exercise is effectively Darwinism at play. Press the red button and you live, that's all there is to it. It's insane to factor in what choices or mistakes others may end up making when survival is genuinely that simple.
>>737918640always left first
>>737928869>one of many solutions>takeBrown retard.
>>737918640that sums up the entirety of the golden sun series
>>737929023Fucking Kirby games.
>>737918640reminds me of how half of tidus ultimate weapon is missed if you dont backtrack a bit after a boss fight and if you try to get it later you have to fight a super boss
>>737918640>going leftyou didn't beat the game. right only is the intended path the devs want you to take. taking the item is a test. you either invalidate the run by taking it and acknowledging you're playing on easy mode or you take the right path and actually play the game.
>>737918640I hate this shit because it breaks my immersion and makes me feel like I'm trying to game the system on a meta level. One might say that comparing equipment stats is also immersion breaking. but there's a difference between that, and trying to figure out what the devs were thinking and intending
>>737922761Bring back save points. Simple as.
>>737929054how bout this one
Most recently, Mouse did this and I fucking hated it. Doors kept locking for no reason. It was a very disgusting amalgamation of old shooters, modern shooters inspired by Call of Duty, and modern shooters inspired by nuDoom. The devs had no idea what they were doing.
>>737918640item
>>737929053There are no significant points of no return in the first 2 games. Its only the shitty 3rd one that's full of them.
>>737929145
>>737929115Literally nothing wrong with a video game feeling like a video game. Designers being obsessed with "un-gamefying" games is how you get movieslop with completely uninteresting gameplay.
>>737918640I always just pick any path and if it's going on for too long, I figure it's the main path and turn back and take the other one for the bonus item. Usually works for me 80% of the time with only some instances of me being bamboozled.
>>737928979What about all the babies in the world? They are forced to push a button randomly without understanding the consequences of their actions. You can save them by choosing the blue button or you can become a baby murderer.
>>737929284That's all well and good, but I don't think a single developer actually intends for you to second guess paths like these constantly. It's not a "mechanic" that you're meant to engage with nor does anyone find it fun. It's only ever a result of negligent game design.
>>737918747>>737918841that's every fatal frame, fuck trying to 100% any of that shit
>>737928940The one im developing.No im not ready to advertise it yet.
>>737922761Could just have the player character (or a sidekick character) ask if they're ready to do past this point, so you know it's a point of no return.
>>737929284Anon's got a point though - when I'm playing a good, well made game I'm rarely thinking about it AS a video game, as an assemblage of programming and creative choices. When the spell is broken and you start thinking of it in terms of its mechanisms and moving parts rather than a proper world, it kind of feels like reading a book and being unable to get past its shitty prose, or watching a film and wondering why the cinematography is so bad. The pieces have not been assembled correctly to immerse you, so at that point can it even be called good? The problem with "un-gamefying" games is that a lot of the time the end result often feels so patronizing or constraining that it paradoxically breaks the spell the moment you do literally anything the dev didn't intend.
>go down the obvious optional side path, long as fuck with mobs>it's just a fucking potion and you already have 99 so you can't even pick it up
>>737929583>it's just a fucking potion and you already have 99 so you can't even pick it up>can't drink potion to make space for it because your health is full, discard items or damage yourself
>>737929583Name one (1) game.
>>737928576It's not a moral dilemma, it's an intelligence test.
>>737929528Fatal Frame is my favorite series but FUCK the ghost lists in those games. The sheer amount of tedium they employ is ridiculous, not just in finding them and keeping track but having to load and reload because ghost #117 (out of 356 or some shit) will only appear for a quarter of a second as you turn a corner 5 minutes after your last save. I love actually playing the games but fuck this autistic shit, man.
>>737929694Elden Rind
>>737929484Then push that blue button if you're so great.
>>737929484blue button pressers think murdering babies is moral
>>737929896FF12
>>737929916i was thinking ff4 specifically but all of them work
>>737929581>When the spell is broken and you start thinking of it in terms of its mechanisms and moving parts rather than a proper world, it kind of feels like reading a book and being unable to get past its shitty prose, or watching a film and wondering why the cinematography is so badI disagree. I think of things in games in terms of the coding or the design all the time and it doesn't affect the experience at all, i can suspend disbelief and enjoy the story, worldbuilding, ambience etc. at the same time just fine. I don't get why it would be immersion-breaking, like, i can still vibe along with a song just fine even if i'm also thinking "damn this guitar solo must be hard as shit to play" if you know what i mean.
>>737918902AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>following a guide to get all achievements>here you will see a door you can go through>>>DON'T GO THROUGH IT YET>went through because of the weird spacing>encounter boss>there was a side path with one extra chest I needed and now I can't go backI fucking hate this shit.
>>737930223this is why i play on emulators so i can rewind back
>>737918640Tgis is dogshit game design
>>737930060In a critical thinking/reflective sense, that's fine. I don't want to be in the middle of a game and screaming "Why did the dev do it this way?". That's a problem. There's a difference between appreciation and frustration, a difference between "damn this guitar solo must be hard as shit to play" and "oh god, why did they use that annoying ass synth on the bridge" to use your own example. Or for a video game "why did they put this point of no return next to an optional path and then autosave it behind you, fuck me for picking wrong I guess". That's thinking of it as a video game through a lens of frustration, and that's a vibe killer.
Valkyrie Profile has this exact problem>one path leads to an item>the other leads to a busted bossfight against a mythical creature that oneshots your party
>>737930223>guide says to go right>you actually need to go left
>>737930459>tjanks for readngs my guide!>t. Alberto Barbarossa
>>737930459>guide says you need to do something specific to progress>doesn't say how to do it
>>737921620Final Fantasy IIIThis game was so frustrating with this kind of nonsense. It's unreal.
>>737930223>>737930459>>737930543>using a guide
>>737929896i fucking hate ff3
>game has no unique gear in chests so missing things in dungeons doesn't feel bad
>>737924728maybe players should accept that they don't need to get every item or unlock every secret.
>>737928337Or a save point before any point of no return so you know to turn around and check the other routes if you want
>>737922761Various methodsFirst one is to make points of no return obvious in terms of gameplay, like a drop you can't go back up from because you can't jump that high, slippy slide, door that you can tell is only one way.Second is drawing players attention if signposting like if you know you are supposed to go to a big building that is your objective and you can see bridge that leads to it and you can see path that leads to the bridge and you can take it or you can take small barely noticeable hidden path.Third is giving you a message that you can't go back either just a popup or some npc can tell you.Points of no return are only bad if you get a sudden cutscene or door closes for some reason, or floor collapses and you can't predict them.
>>737918640>Play game >reach a point where you either have to take left corridor or right corridor.>no indication which progresses the story and which one is for a collectible/upgrade>move a bit to the left, game autosaves>move a bit to the right, game autosaves>flip a coin>pick left>health upgrade>go right.>point of no returnI hate it I absolutely hate it it makes me seethe and mald every time to the point that i stop playing and watch funny videos of jeets getting killed by trains just to cope
>>737918640>go left>"wait, what if this is the main path, gotta check the other first">go back and go right>realize it's the main path>go back and go left again to grab item>go back and go right
>>737928068>>737928125
>>737929145first run of a kirby level is for learning the level.second run is to get almost all the secretsthird run is to appreciate the scenery and get that last secret you messed up on run 2.kirby kino
>>737922761press button get guidance, go opposite way.dead space did it REALLY well.
>>737932021no that sucks. finding a secret might greatly increase your enjoyment of the game so it's retarded to make finding it essentially come down to random chance.
>>737918640>go right >unskippable 5 minute cutscene happens>can't pause while cutscenes are playing>alt+F4, restart game>autosave puts you after the cutscene
>>737933006when i was a kid the value i get out of hearing about a secret i missed FAR exceded the joy of just finding something.i would think about it all day at school until i got home and had a chance to go try out the way to get an unbreakable biggoron sword.or when i was a late teen and learned about the halo skulls and spend HOURS trying to get them with my mates.now it literally impossible to NOT know about a secret zone, even before the game is out, theres no way i can get excited for shit.playing silk song i ALMOST got to reach act 3 without knowing about it, but some dickhead at work just KEPT telling people about the streamer he watched getting to it, which is the opposite of fun.
>>737933170>autosave puts you at the start of the cutscene
>>737927797PERFECTACCURACY DENIEDIMPRESSIVE HUMILIATIONIts only 27 years ago bros :(
>>737933179I just get pissed off. it's like finding out there was a discount code after you just bought something for full price, or when you finish a project that was really frustrating and someone shows you a way to do it that's easier.
>>737933684heres the thing though, imagine now you get the chance to go back and do it right.like, you can go back with the discount code and they'll give you a refund, or you can do the project again in half the time.
>>737933871>>737933684i love how this is actually a thing on steam, and you can specifically request a refund for something that just went on sale after you bought it.
>>737933871there's no such time machine. if you want to see the thing you missed you have to replay the entire game, which can be over 40 hours. when you are a kid and you only get 4 new games a year it doesn't matter that you have to start a new game to see if mew is under the truck because you already played the game 4 times already and don't have anything else to play until christmas. I'm not a kid anymore. I'm an adult and I have a long list of games I want to play. I'm not going to spend even 10 hours replaying a game because the devs think they are still making games for grade schoolers.
>>737918640>meticulously search everywhere before I think it's the point of no return>I still miss shitFuck you RE4R!
>>737934067back in my day anon, game secrets were rarely behind points of no return.usually it just meant you had to load the mission selector, or use the post game unlocked cheat menu to get straight to the mission.the recent style of "keep the tutorial item until 50 hours later" is bad game design.
>>737920964Reminds me of FFTA going>this is a point of no return, would you like to save? And then putting the save after your choice. Absolutely evil, I wonder how many people had to restart the entire game because of that
>>737918902this is like half of metro
Final Fantasy had solved that problem 40 years ago by always pointing out "wow this looks like a BOSS DOOR" it's amazing how rpg devs lost this simple trick and their only options are "straight line corridor" or "ha ha you missed the treasure get fucked *SAVING CHECKPOINT DATA*"
>>737918640Ideally left, but usually right, Alt+F4, launch game, load save, left.
>>737934176it just comes down to the question of who are the devs actually pleasing with these secrets? when you have some kind of content that comes down to exploring left instead of right you basically end up with 4 groups of people with different experiences:>group a goes left by chance and gains some degree of enjoyment from it>group b goes right by chance and misses the item and the enjoyment it provides>group c goes right at first but returns to go left either by backtracking before it's too late or replaying the game. they get the enjoyment of finding the item, but it is lessened by the annoyance of backtracking.>group d gains enjoyment from knowing there is missable content whether they find it themselves or notputting this kind of content in games is basically making games for group d at the expense of groups b and c. if the goal is the maximize enjoyment for the greatest number of people you have to assume that group d is larger than groups b and c. I don't think it is, but devs themselves are boomers with nostalgia for hearing playground rumors so they keep making games like that.
>>737934548group B and D only finds out they missed it because they look it up online later.the problem anon is that you get told about things you missed now.in the past you only found out because your friend excitedly told you about it, making you excited to find it, OR when you spent $30 on a guide and you get the excitement of reading through all the bits you DID find, to get to the ones you didn't, and most of those old guide books were split into "hint" and "guide" where you could find out about a secret in hints, and find out exactly how to get it in guide.its a new game problem, especially with the internet.
>>737930459
>take left>Go down hallway>Keep walking >Music changes>Health items appear>"Oh fuck this must be where the level progresses">Go back>Turn right>Cutscene plays immediately
>>737918640I hate missables in video games so much. Every game should have a way to teleport back to earlier areas no matter how lorebreaking it is. Just frame it as the protag thinking through his memories or something
>>737922761Game design is a lost art
gamedevs almost solved this but they always make you look like a retard with characters saying"UHHHH ARE YOU SURE THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY????""THIS WAY DOESNT LOOK RIGHT. LETS HEAD BACK!" everytime you go into a loot path.
>>737918902Thankfully they already solved this problem... now to stand in front of the door after spending several minutes looking for a switch and look up a guide on how to open it.
>>737935759>cutscene shows door opening>it's actually a different door than you thought but the environment is so cluttered you cannot tell what door or where it is
>>737935929games in the 90s were just built different
>>737935929Fire Emblem 5
>>737935929fun fact, most of those were added so your second playthrough would go fast, since i have the best weapon right from the start.
>>737918640this is such a huge fucking problem in mass effect 3>you are doing something and it's supposed to be urgent>go the wrong way and look for items
>>737936017You go for the Brave Axe or the Handaxe +1?
>>737936457The unique axes in the beginning level
>>737935929nothing will ever beat FFXII when it comes to this kind of bullshit
>>737936727You gotta pick one, Brave Axe or the Super Handaxe.
>>737936827Ranged axe weapons are hard to come by, and will serve you a lot longer. Brave axe will just trivialize a handful of fights.
>>737936789I've been playing through FF12 recently and it's actually really funny how fucking OP you get if you do the side content as it becomes available to you instead of instantly progressing the story. Like I'm just doing all the hunts as soon as I unlock them without checking a guide as well as fighting most enemies in my way and I'm able to one shot every boss with quickening at this point. I feel like all that missable super weapon shit is superfluous.
