Why did Lost Ark and New World fail?
because they are extremely fucking awful gamesnext question
I think risk:reward is the most important aspect, but risk:reward is only meaningful if there’s real loss, player interaction, and system feedback. Without that, you don’t have an economy or strategy -- you have a treadmill.>>738086738New World had good combat, good instances, and almost good economy. What else do you want?
>>738086382Why would you call your game Lost Ack, anyway?It's asking for it to fail.
New world had such an awful launch, it's over They can't rebound like osrs did
>>738086978You need loss. I don't mean full loot. It has its place. Full loot PvP servers would probably be popular, because PvP games are by far the most popular and hours played games. But what would require millions, if not billions, of resources is material repairs durability. People want to live in a world. Gathering, crafting, trading, and PvEing for resources and items is extremely important to vary activities. Gold repairs just makes everything permanent. A linear treadmill. Where you can see through the world because the only thing that matters is pushing your linear ilvl. If resources are important, people can fight to control zones. People can corner markets and look for the crafters with the best recipes. You need economy, so you need material repairs durability.You can also have much more power (size, speed, and power rivaling comics) if you can only keep it by staying alive or being rich. It's a win-win. Material repairs durability is central to a good MMO.
>>738086978>New World had good combat, good instances, and almost good economy. What else do you want?a game that doesn't feel like a money laundering system>good economyI remember the economy being ruined by a glitch or hackthe story was really bland and genericand in a game that supposedly had pirate/mediterranean inspiration etc, the sea was ugly as sin
>>738086978>New World had goodLmao. I see the Wildstarification of New World proceeds apace.It was a piece of shit that deserved to die.
>>738087117High-stakes PvP is probably the least popular kind of PvP aside from literal gambling, nobody wants to lose a portion of their life's work to some gatekeeping chucklefuck, especially not in a game with a leveling and tiered gear system
>>738087202>a game that doesn't feel like a money laundering systemWhat do you mean?>I remember the economy being ruined by a glitch or hackI don't. Also, money was only so useful because of limits on resource accrual, and all you had to do was control a market city to make lots of money. Any glitch was probably a pretty closed loop. A market glitch definitely doesn't stop millions of players from playing the game within a few months.>>738087832I think its biggest problem was simply not having enough to do. Keys were really hard to get, and you could wait hours for an instance. That's not the end of it. Leveling was sorta fun, but I don't remember the questing being very fulfilling. I think having leveling and linear loot accrual (even if you could change playstyles/weapons) was a huge problem; what are people supposed to do when they have the gear they want? They seemed to overrate how much people would explore different loadouts. I think a lot of it came down to how hard keys were to get.>>738087959Material repairs durability isn't necessarily high stake until you get to really powerful equipment.
A better question is: Why did Ashes of Creation fail?
>>738089267Kickstarter scam
>>738087116They could advertise the game instead of shutting it down. Maybe it should be redesigned. What do you think, /v/?I think getting resources and making money took too much time. Is everybody supposed to do lodestone and platinum runs?
>>738086382>Lost Ark>P2W Gook Chore Simulator + Amazon Censorship Niggerfying the game>New World>Jeet Coded Messpretty simple
>>738090531I think the socioeconomy deserves a "the Amazon MMO".
>Bought NW for $20 in a sale years ago>Never got around to trying itThink Steam will let me get a refund?
>>738086382woke trash
>>738086382New World's combat ruined every other MMO for me. I can't fucking go back to shitty ass tab targeting now. I swear, if ESO had New World combat, it'd be the best MMO.
>>738086978>New World>good combat
>>738091916grim
>>738091916this is just people trying to tag a single weak mob for a quest/drop. This is poor mob design
>>738086382>New World Disastrous launch with all of the duping exploits (makes the game feel un-serious, and like time you've spent is invalidated which kills people's motivation to keep progressing), lack of steady progression and story content, and not having a lot of the systems / changes / content design they eventually arrived at. The combat system was also bad for a long time (and still sucks desu, but I also couldn't tell you a MMORPG with 'good' combat). t.over 1,500h in release NW, having done everything except Nighthaven / the last 1-2 dungeons before it and capital S Sandworm. I've heard NH is supposed to be good, maybe I'll re-install and give it a go before the game shuts down in ~7 months
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?
>>738092827why do you keep posting this
>>738091916They HAD good combat and then they fucked it all in beta to try and appeal to WoW players, which is a terrible idea and they should have ignored all of the retard MMO players who complained that beta wasn't WoW
>>738091916Is that a world node? That's sorta disingenuous. The dungeons were really good, and the PvP had a lot of potential.>>738091746
WoW players are incredibly allergic to player interaction of any kind, including PvP. It evenspreads to other MMOs. Meanwhile every other popular online game is centered around PvP.PvE WoW clones is all they can play.
>>738092864he's retarded
>>738086382>New WorldAmazon>Lost ArkWho?!And since this is an MMO thread thread, here's a reminder that Tree of Savior private servers are finally here and will start becoming a thing in the coming years. And if that's not your cup of tea, the Ragnarok Online fan remake in Unity is also coming along and will fix everything wrong with that game.The only good things to look forward to in MMOs are private servers.
>>738086382Devs listened to paid actors instead of actual players. Many such cases.
>>738093241New World was supposed to be PvP, sadly they changed it at launch for the WoW audience.
>>738093370>Tree of Savior private serversnever played it. are ps a good entry point
>>738092995>the PvP had a lot of potentialI think 2s and 5s would have been a good addition to 3s, which probably should've had a higher TTK after they removed scaling (it should have scaling). The capture mode was a little blobby.
>>738093824no they didn't
Damn I forgot about Bots Ark, that game was shilled pretty heavily for a few months. Lets see how it's doing...>6000 playersYikes dawg
>>738094332It's one of those MMOs that went through so many versions over the years that it plays different depending on which version you select.The core gameplay and feel of ToS is amazing, as is the art and music. The world and everything that goes in it oozes soul and love from the people who made it. But they could never figure out how to properly balance it. Every era of this game had glaring issues with pacing, balance and progression. It's not a clear-cut thing like Ragnarok, where most players can agree that there was a specific moment in time when the game went to shit. Some people like the beta test era, some like early steam release, others actually like the game post-ReBuild patch(tos' version of Renewal).The guys running the private servers for ToS have all decided that the correct answer was none of the above and have adopted entirely original systems.You have Seeds of Yggdrasil, which is made using a leaked version of the game. The only had the executables and not the source code, they were limited in how much they could edit it. But still, it's amazing how much he was able to customize despite that limitation. It's very grindy and challenging but the owner has no idea how to pace the scaling, so Lv60 enemies already have millions of HP because stats inflate player's damage by so much.And then, you have Laima. It runs using Melia, which is the open source ToS emulator (it's actually his unique branch of it), which means he has complete control over the game. The problem is that, although playable, it's still far from being complete. A lot of features don't work and the selection of classes is limited, but the pacing isn't as ridiculous as the other server. The level cap is 99 and monsters at that level have HP around 100~300k. It's significantly easier and less grindy but it's also mostly a test server for the ToS Emulator, which means that there are game breaking bugs, memory leaks that require frequent reboots.
Released with no end game. Very few people give a fuck about the story in MMOs, it's all about the end game (raids/dungeons) and people will rush the campaign as fast as possible to get there and if your game releases with no end game, or it's very bare bones it's a death sentence.
>>738095358For example, this is a bug that happened a couple of weeks ago, where players found out that you could use Revive on player anvils, which made them do this in town indefinitely.https://files.catbox.moe/ojo8wh.webmThe one I'm "playing" right now is Laima because, truly, emulator-based pservers are the only viable future for this game. I haven't logged in to play seriously in almost two weeks because I've run out of content to do, but it was enough to keep me busy for at least a month.
>>738093370this looks fun
>>738086738What does Blizzard have to do to make WoW PvP an esport? Remove leveling?
>>738095504The core behind Tree of Savior is that you can pick from different classes and combine them in creative ways. And yes, there's a lot of uniquely cool classes in the game. In that webm I'm playing a Cryomancer + Psychokino but there's so much more to choose from.That said, Laima only has 6 classes for each base tree, so the selection is still incomplete at this time.>Swordsman: Highlander, Peltasta, Hoplite, Barbarian, Cataphract, Rodelero.>Wizard: Pyromancer, Cryomancer, Psychokino, Bokor, Chronomancer, Elementalist>Archer: Quarrel Shooter, Ranger, Hunter, Sapper, Fletcher, Wugushi>Cleric: Priest, Krivis, Dievdirby, Paladin, Sadhu, Monk>Scout: Assassin, Outlaw, Corsair, Linker, Thaumaturge, ROgueSupposedly, the ones we're getting soon are going to be Falconer, Sorcerer, Necromancer, Doppelsoldner, Fencer, Musketeer, Cannoneer, Oracle, Squire and Schwarzer Reiter.
>>738086382>lost ark failno? game is good, new content all the time, new jobs, new bosses. everyone are playing lost ark this is okay game. like some alternative to ff14. but with more grind.
>>738086382They banked everything about new world on the combat and forgot everything else, including balancing the combat for pvp. PVP in mmorpg's is just nigger behavior btw. Maybe runescape used to be good in the ancient days but when it turned into sweats server-tick-perfect switching into multiple different special attacks, pvp went to shit.
>>738093370i played TOS lots of time on prerelease-release. well. this game is dead.
>>738093370>>738095914man, I really wanted ToS to be goodI played the beta, and the game itself several times in the span of some yearsthe game is fucking disappointing, really really badthe idea is really good but it's just a crappy as fuck MMOyour webm looks good thofuck them for not including centurion in the end
>>738096005Everyone who's playing the pservers believes that ToS has turned into a money laundering scheme because nobody is able to explain how this game is not only still alive but still somehow receiving updates. Every whale would have to be blowing 100s of dollars every month in order to keep the game alive.But there is a lot of people who like the game and don't play it because the options are shit. When PapayaToS opened three years ago, there was a ton of people who came to check it out. But they all left because PapayaToS was, ultimately, still just modern tos.>>738096137One of the better things we can do with Melia is restoring old skills and behaviors. And yes, we'll likely get Centurion class at some point down the line.
>>738095832it will never be a successful esport because the whole style is already superseded by MOBAs
Lost Ark had retarded difficulty for a game requiring other people. The monster hunter parts took way too fucking long to kill and had no feedback that you were doing any damage at all. Unending streams of botsCENSORING 3 LETTER COMBINATIONS CONSIDERED OFFENSIVE IN ANY LANGUAGE. You could not use normal words without this fuckery shitting things up.
>>738092827I'd love an actual game out of this styleGive me a beat em up or something
>>738089267Ran out of money.
>>738095936it has 6000 players, and knowing Amazon it's a only a matter of time before they shut this game down
>>738095032I think it was supposed to be a survival crafting PvP game.All the trade skills, especially logging and cooking, were so good.>>738092995
>>738095946WPvP was really fun, and it's not as if you were losing anything, plus you had to flag. The instanced PvP could've been better, a capture the flag mode, et al., but overall, the combat was really fun to explore over various weapon combinations. Again, they should've kept scaling, especially as the player count dwindled, or made different servers.>>738099003
>>738096620WoW PvP is vastly more varied:deep. See trinity and ability count.
Lost Ark was designed in the worst way possible for player growth. It's just constantly stacking new shit on top of eachother like a game of jenga except new players start from the very bottom and nobody wants to run content with them because everyone just wants to speedrun their raids for gold. If you cant do raids you cant do content because that is all there is your doing old raids to get geared for new raids but if you dont have the gear you aren't getting invited so your only option is to buy gold and get geared that way.Then there are 45 different completely rng progression systems that exist to consume all your resources nad give you jackshit.
>>738086382Lost ark has systems that are designed entirely to squeeze 100-300 dollars out of players every raid release. Even though its possible to do the raids without bis gear and extremely high ilvl, by the time vykas was released in NA the gatekeeping mentality and healer shortage really hurt the player base.There's no other MMO out there that doesn't allow you to target farm bosses for specific loot, and instead forces you to buy tokens from the developers to be granted the privilege of buying your bis gear from other players.
>>738086382becasue it lack content u need to keep a fresh carrot for people to keep playing these games.
Not good game
>738087117It’s the material repairs and upgrades faggot that uses AI chat bots to talk lol
MMO is such a trash genre they completely forgot they are supposed to be roleplaying games and it's all just combat combat combat with no real roleplaying subsystems. Skilling is just a shallow veneer of roleplaying and they just use that shit to augment the combat system instead.
>>738098385If only we had given the scammer more money...
>>738099679>>738095832It has the same issue every mmo with pvp that's been alive for a long time has, new blood gets hard filtered by a demographic mostly composed of veterans who've been pvping for years. Most people don't have the patience to fight through the initial knowledge gap and end up dropping it before they can fully tell what's happening on the screen.
>>738100593I hope you don't think leveling is good.
>>738086382New world wasn't made as an MMO. Some exec said "this is an free mmo now" and the indians had to creat whatever amazon wanted.WHY DID DARKFALL fail. fuckin powertripping GMs had their own guild.
>>738087117ffxi proved that you don't need thisa long grind with tons of side paths towards alternate classes with currency and trading being actually important because of costs and consumable is more than enough. equipment impermanence or item loss or anything stupid like that is not necessary.full loot pvp is always a fail game and it has failed utterly at every attempt
>>738100593Roleplaying is cringe.
>>738100831leveling is good and you are retarded if you think it isn'tpeople like you don't understand why mmos were ever successful because you are too dumb to even know what it is about them that appealed to people>>738100989another retard
>>738086382>Why did New World fail?Around launch? Because of all the exploits plaguing the economy due to duping. Because of guilds abusing wars to make the game shit for everyone interested in PvP. No real endgame PvE back then either. So PvEer, PvPers and lifeskill farmers all had something serious pissing them off and making them not want to play.Recently? Because Amazon scrapped their games division. New World itself was making a comeback and was definitely on track to becoming one of those fairly successful MMOs who sits at a steady ok-ish playerbase under giants like WoW and XIV. Kinda like ESO and GW2. Most of the problems that drove people away had been fixed and there was a decent amount of content, devs were communicating clearly with the playerbase and adding desired things. The game was logging 30k concurrents monthly on PC and about twice that on console before the last and final xpac was even released. And was building up a decent amount of hype again before Amazon broke the news. Had they kept it around it would no doubt had become a mainstay in the genre again for the next decade. It's a bit sad, but not unexpected. Assuming it kept being worked on and staying relevant in the genre and bringing in a decent profit. That profit is still small enough to be just a rounding error to Amazon.
why aren't (you) making your own mmo?
>>738100954>full loot pvp is always a fail game and it has failed utterly at every attemptNTA but partial player looting where you can snag mats and/or quest items is a pretty good middle ground imo. Creates a decent amount of friction. As long as it's in an optional area or doesn't stop someone from progressing completely. That's gonna kill the game due to rq.
>>738086382All answers are shit. the time of MMO is over, we don't need a fantasy world where you suck bigger cocks and ain't special, you already have social media and everything else for it.Single Player RPG with LLM for immersive world, will be the the MMO sucessor.Everyone will get to be Kirito, and it will be successful.
In regards to New World: Eternal grinding for marginal increases in equipment level sucked. Doing it while pvp factions can show up at any moment didn't make anything better. And then eventually everybody consolidates into one faction, so every conflict is a forgone conclusion.And frankly, the game wasn't that good in the first place.Supposedly the game has been improved since I left, but I don't want to go back to an MMO where I'll be years behind the pack.
>>738100383Lost Ark was nothing but carrot after carrot. Endless vertical progression, relentless grind for the next harder raid followed by even harder raid followed by THE HARDEST raid followed by EVEN MORE HARDEST raid
>>738101485Hopeless endeavor, the MMORPG playerbase is one that cannot be satisfied.
>>738086382New World was like the first game that FORCED people to play on w10 and didn't work on W7 for no reason at all.
>>738100817>>738101285Leveling massively filters players. In WotLK, 70% of trial players quit by lvl 10. Recently, 50% of lvl 10 characters made it to lvl 25. People should be able to start the game with all their abilities and talents and the ability to play with others instead of having 90% of zones obsoleted and not being able to play with anybody. At least without leveling, players would have time to learn PvP specs and matchups and test the game as their intro. I think it would be really successful, and with how simple but popular PvP games are (vastly more popular and hours played than PvE/singleplayer), it has a lot up on the competition.
Didn't New World actually start to become somewhat decent and fix their problems, and got an influx of money and then Amazon just canned it?
>>738100954You can't honestly think that people will have enough to do if resources don't matter.
>>738100848>New world wasn't made as an MMO.It was, and it was way more hardcore before it launched as a linear treadmill.
>Lost Ark Rush to end game to then check off a list of random dungeons and raids you have to do for stairstep gear checks>New WorldCompletely mutilated game from its initial inception of a large scale survival crafter MMO + dungeons and siege warfare - into prebuilt city slop and almost insistently non stop nerfs to fun meta like hatchet, musket, and hammer
>>738093241>WoW players are incredibly allergic to player interaction of any kind, including PvP. It evenspreads to other MMOs. What he actually means>I LOVE SHITTING ON NEW PLAYERS WITH MY OP MAX LEVEL GEAR AND ONE SHOTTING THEM OVER AND OVER AGAIN EVERY TIME THEY RESPAWN. I ALSO LOVE CHEATING, GRIEFING, AND BOOSTING.pvp should never be the focus of a mmo go play league, dota, or csgo or a real completive game retard. a pvp focused mmo will always die because a mmo needs much more than just pvp to be successful.
>>738095832remove global cooldown
>>738104960Its mostly MMOs with PvP that's alive today, PvE MMORPGs nearly all die.WoW the most popular MMO got popular because of all the PvP stories you heard, when you watched that South Park advertisement episode it wasn't about the kids playing PvE, it was all about PvP. All the popular e-celebs and videos back in the days was about PvP
>>738105162you are delusional
>>738086382MMOs just are not profitable
>>738101897The genre needs some form of mediumcore or hardcore gameplay. Risk only matters if it creates loss, demand, and player-driven outcomes. Otherwise it’s just scripted progression.
>>738105262hardcore is just streamerbait, nobody actually plays that shit
>>738086382I played New World on release for a month and I played it a lot. 290 hours in 4 weeks. I was the best healer on my server with the faction that dominated the map. The reason New World failed, and why I left only after a month, was all of the game breaking bugs.Here were some of the bugs people would employ:Put your game in windowed mode, grab the window with your mouse and wiggle it around. As long as the window was moving you were invincible. People would use this to sit on capture points.Send an image or unknown characters to someone with a private message. This would crash the recipients game to desktop while the sender was fine.Moveswap your healing staff to turn the about 1 shot per second projectile into a 900 rounds per minute machine gun. A machine gun that did damage to enemies and healed allies in a little AoE.Send a hundred reports about someone and oops the automated bot would ban them. If you were lucky Amazon would fix it in a few DAYS.I stopped participating in the war when my guild started using the bugs too. I have no interest in fighting each other with bugs.Then the economy bugs surfaced. Duplication glitches for both items and straight cash. In a 100% player driven economy. It was devastating. Wars and all PvP were just knowledge checks about who knew the bugs and who didn't and now the economy players had their game ruined too. Players left in droves. Only the third worlder and chinese cheaters stayed that get off on that shit.Amazon eventually fixed the gold bugs but... people had their money. The economy never recovered. The final nail in the coffin was when the player counts were so low that Amazon merged servers. Sounds fine but this is a player owned map. What happens to the people who owned the map on the server that got shut down? They got fucked is what happened and just lost their shit.You don't recover from a launch like that.
>>738105231nta i never played vanilla wow but several pvp events gained so much notoriety that people talked about it outside of wow>angwe>some r14 war>some rogue montage>funeral pvp raid>the spreading of aids in wrath(?)
>>738102021An MMO is any other genre with amounts of players and a persistent world, which are huge for skill expression, worldbuilding, and social identity. You don't get that with other genres, but you can have everything from other genres in an MMO.
>>738105262everquest is the direct result of people not being able to handle gear fear
>>738104960>>738105162bookmarking these posts for when the Runeterra MMO and Guild Wars 3 release lolololol
>>738105406those events are fun to talk about and watch but no one is going to stick the game for those reasons alone and wow is also the best mmo of all time like i said in my other post having a variety of things to do is key. wow without it's pve would fail.>>738105517if those games are pvp focused they will be dead in a year and on maintenance mode .
>>738104224They can, they still play the old games.
>>738105789You might be right, Tencent released Honor of Kings World as a PvP gacha game after sharting out Hytale.
>>738105789>no one is going to stick the game for those reasons alonemy friends and i played classic wow explicitly for pvp. anything pvm related we took part in was a means to an end in preparation for pvp. mmos do need some form of both though so i can agree with you there.
>>738102960>Eternal grinding for marginal increases in equipment level sucked.I agree. I was making about 2,000 coin an hour farming lodestone, and I don't think platinum was much better. I wanted to buy low, sell high, but getting more than 1,000 weight in my city inventory disallowed posting on the trading post, so if too much inventory came in from buy orders, I would have to drop multiple inventory loads in front of the trading post to get under the limit and then post them in 3.5 minutes each.>Doing it while pvp factions can show up at any moment didn't make anything better.You didn't have to farm flagged.>And frankly, the game wasn't that good in the first place.I really liked it. I think the resources were too "1 person at a time grinding this 20 minute route" and would have been better as an area based mass of nodes that people could fight over, or at least didn't have to look up on YT. If they made resources more abundant, the price to mass craft equipment rolls would go down, and people could get into crafting more easily. I didn't like trophies, but maybe I should just have to deal with it. I don't know why it lost so many players, but I would love to have it back.>>738099587
>>738086382Amazon game studios
>>738105423as long as the bots can react, they will be just a good or better than other persons. When was the last time you had an actual meaningful positive interaction with a "Random"?Mind you, all Mmos that exist now at the mainstream, are lobbies, they are as much as meaningful as CoD or Fifa.
>>738106089i'm just saying stuff like this has been polled before people play and prefer pve in mmos by a good amount it's probably a 80/20 split.feel free to google it if you don't believe me
>>738106176that's nice that the majority prefer it but i have noticed a trend over the years of observation that they stick to pvp serverswhen classic wow launched pvp/pvprp servers filled up instantly whilst pve servers remain localized to one or two mega servers.
>>738106142Fortnite released Persona in beta, they're fine? Idk if it's economically feasible for an MMO to be meaningful. Arcs having ML training in Arc Raiders didn't matter to most people.
>>738106320I think in 10 years will we get AAA Rpgs with immersive worlds with llm bots, so everyone is reacting to everything (There has been plenty of advances on memory and local machines).It will be a lot like the games we had in 80's and early 90's but good.I think that it will be the next big thing on RPGs, I mean you can already mod WoW with llm bots to have a similar but shittier experience right now.
>>738093370>fix everything wrong with that gameI mean, last I knew Doddler wasn't going to do anything about the absolute dogshit class design, the gear breaking from upgrades that wasn't designed to "encourage a booming and healthy economy" as our resident threadschizo would say but rather to make people play longer so they could siphon more sub money from them, or any of the other smaller issues like how certain stats become pointless after the first 20 levels. Sure not having to deal with infinite poslag will be nice, but just taking straight oldschool RO and porting it to a working engine won't suddenly make it a modern day diamond.
>>738093370I played Ragnarok private servers and didn't know Tree of Savior and the Ragnarok remakes were a thing.
>>738101471>exploits plaguing the economyand pvp. don't forget the instant kill or invincibility glitches
>>738104407Correct.
>>738107018
>>738104960I love how somebody always posts this when it almost never happens. In Classic, I never got ganked, even in Hillsbrad. In retail world quests, the other faction and I would help each other train down mobs. Realize that people are going to trend toward objective quality, and killing lowbies simply isn't that fun. And even if it does happen, you can just switch characters. This is all referencing leveling existing, which is heinous, and you can't argue that. See >>738104342. Not to mention, factions shouldn't exist, and everybody but group mates and guild mates should be killable.>>738106176Almost every popular game is a PvP game, and BRs and extraction shooters are extremely popular while requiring people to start over every match or lose equipment if they die before they extract. Also, see Rust, Minecraft PvP, and ARK. You can't say it doesn't translate to MMOs, because you don't suddenly lose the thrill of PvP because the game is a massively multiplayer persistent game. People love playing other players because they're unscripted. Beating a real player is much more rewarding. MMO PvP has some room to build the world more, but an MMO is going to be the most played game when we're all playing games together, and PvP is going to be the most rewarding content.
>>738105117It would be a lot to rebalance melee vs. ranged.
>>738105246A few devs could make a few mobs and a zone per day and have an MMO of content in a month or two. That's for millions of income monthly.
>>738105343More loss potentiates more power. You can give players more if they have to stay alive or pay to repair it. Introduce players, and you have more adrenergics than any other.
>>738108372>>738108645no one is more retarded than mmoids lmao. u are the lowest of the low. below tendies, even
>>738089267Wild incompetence which lead into opportunistic scamming
>>738107018You could use the old school engine for physics and logic with a modern engine for graphics. The Oblivion remaster did this and runs like shit for reasons unrelated to using the old school engine.
>>738105367You don't lose millions of players in a few months because max level PvP was bugged and the economy let players buy out markets and craft a bunch of gear. Something about the game wasn't compelling, and people couldn't really do dungeons, and making money was extremely slow. Crafting was high end when people probably weren't even reaching max level. Playing the market was obtuse. I think the game deserves more, but I can't say the combat can carry mediocre designs for almost everything but dungeons.
>>738101485Because I'm not fucking suicidal idiotI can't compete with the likes of WoW and OSRS, they have neckbeards who have been playing them for 20 years. They eat bigger MMOs for breakfast than I could possibly make
>>738106142>as long as the bots can react, they will be just a good or better than other persons.Delusional. Almost all of the top games are PvP. We are nowhere near AI to match the thrill of playing other people, and even if we were, it's only something you would do if you don't want to be social. There are so many reward systems building up playing other people, it's incomparable.Honorable mention to playing PvE with other players.
>>738109316Anon did not claim this was happening anytime soon.
>>738108804Not an argument.
>>738086382mmos are expensive, niche, and have an incredibly entrenched market with WoW at the head
>>738107943you have the brain of a five year old. I love icecream and I love meat, so if I put both together it will be good!BE LESS RETARDEDALL MMO PVP GAMES ARE NICHE OR MADE FOR THE RETARDED. LITERAL FACT.>>738108804Looking at this thread, I fully agree.>>738109316do you consider single player games top games? because they will be the same but on steroids. Yes, Actual PVP games like CS, DOTA and LOL are top games. they are also their own thing.>>738109430I think we will start to see something in ten years, the tech will be in like 4 years, but then someone has to pitch, an AAA studio has to greenlight, and they have to develop the game.
>>738110014*blocks your path*
>>738086382because mmo is a genre of sunk cost fallacythats why top titles like wow ffxiv gw2 eso are all 10+ years old
>>738110169Literal irrelevant game that no one cares, and is governed by a boomer californian lawyer, you surely showed to me.
>>738086382new world - lack of pve content. combat system that was bad for pve contentlost ark - good combat and raids, abysmal progression, raid based progression without soft resets so people can t come back
>>738086382Because they were both lockdown multiplayer games that were dropped for the slop they are when covid ended.
>>738109940You don't need 500 person studios. 10 is enough. You know what you can do with 1,000 man hours (2.5 weeks)? That's 12.5 zones and maybe 25 mob varieties. You could make forests choppable in a day. You could have an MMO of content in a month or two.It's only as niche as its design and advertisement puts it up against other MMOs and doesn't surpass them.WoW isn't that good. Targeted features would mog WoW.
>>738110014So you're a carebear?
>>738110285It has a 1.5d 27k concurrent average.Goons don't really affect much.
>>738110390>combat system that was bad for pve contentThe dungeons were extremely good. 5 man was kino.
>>738111693So you're a no-games? because tell me what successful game caters to you.>>738111814I like Eve but is small, niche and will never get any innovation anymore, they tried back in the past with Dust, never again.
>>738086382New World died because of shitty updates that made it into a treadmill, and a shittass community of guildwars 2 expats who would just bandwagon and zerg servers until all the content dried up, then server transfer and do it again.
>>738111693definitelythere's four camps>pve enjoyer>pvp enjoyer>people who enjoy both>mentally ill tranniesthat guy falls under the fourth category
>>738111443Maybe idk, I think you’re underestimating how hard the art is. The art is where the real money is being spent. Low budget MMOs just have this cheap look about them that wow and xiv don’t have. Also pvp scripting is probably hard as fuck, xiv didn’t even have pvp for the longest time apparently it has pvp now or something. Not that im gona play them again or anything, im waiting for the new mmo. Im sure eventually they will make a new one that’s good. Im not playing a 25 year old game lol thats for sure. Maybe they wont ever make a new mmo because its too expensive, when i look outside dude i dont see enough money to justify an mmo3 coming out. I just see like lots of ugly as fuck people dude everyone’s so fucking ugly and poor compared to me.
>>738112117FFXIV always had PvP. Since before Heavensward days, PvP is just so irrelevant and infested by trannies that can't play a real competitive game that you fooled yourself into thinking the game didn't had pvp.
I miss the new world launch month…It was the most fun I’ve had since vanilla worlo
>>738091885ESO literally has NW combat
>>738112214It didn’t have pvp when I played. Thats funny that heavensword is like your benchmark, the game had already been out for a very long time before that expansion.
>>738087117The bigger problem is most people like the IDEA of playing these games, but the moment they end up receiving end of unfair PvP they quit. That's not a way to maintain a healthy player base. Unless you're EVE or something where you can be an anonymous asteroid miner oblivious to the factional warfare going on around you.
>>738111814keep in mind anyone serious about eve has multiple accounts so those numbers are inflated
>>738112276Anon. 1.0, to the trash it goes, A Realm Reborn and then Heavensward.Yeah I only realized they fixed the game when they did a expac for a game that was known so far for have failed and died just like Concord for example.
Cowards. All of you.
>>738089267other than the money thing?The devs made the classic mistake of thinking you can satisfy hardcore PvP players and PvE players on the same server.FACT: a large amount of PvE players will simply not play your game if they will be engaged in unavoidable PvP. Regular human beings dont understand how autistic hardcore PvE players are, these are the sort of people that get pissed off if their perfect PvE game has an optional PvP server that is quarantined from the rest of the game. >How dare you have optional content that might make a PvP player feel a sense of joy I-I mean that development money could have been used on something else! thats why im seething!Crimson desert was pretty unattractive to the PvE only crowd because PvP players could kill them at almost any time. the fact the PvP player would incur a bounty if it was non-consensual PvP is entirely irrelevant to the PvE player.Also the system was abusable for a few different reasons.I think this is a key reason why Dune failed imo. They tried to put PvE and PvP players on the same server.There are basically two types of gamersPvE players>they only like PvE>they might want to try some quarantined instanced off consensual PvP one timeand PvP players>they might want to do PvE content for 99% of their playtime, but they like the threat of PvP so they pick PvP servers, this still makes them PvP players.You can not please everyone of both parties unless you have dedicated PvE/PvP servers or a dedicated PvP zone that has no rewards a PvE player would want for any reason. There are zero exceptions to this.
>>738112276Heavensward is a decade old you dumb fuck.
>>738112428It's funny because Warhammer Online figured this shit out. You make PvE and PvP players contribute to some overall goal by doing their activities without having to do what they dislike. Every quest you do, every player you kill in RvR, every won match in PvP, etc. all feeds into war effort that unlocks your opposing factions capital city as both the ultimate raid and ultimate PvP zone.
>>738112428Even if Ashes worked. the game would be led by streamers and celebrities. Do you play videogames to suck cock?
>>738112347>>738112432Xiv was already finished by the end of arr. That was it, that was the entire game. These extra expansions are just designed to juice people’s wallets by reusing lots of old assets and code. We had over 3 years of arr.
>>738112428They also made the mistake of lying outright about the style of game it was going to be. World PvP focused except you're punished if you engage in it. Oops! >>738112536It's such a shame Warhammer Online was dead on arrival. EA and Bioware did it so fucking dirty. And imagine if it wasn't on a piece of shit engine like Gamebryo.
>>738112536the main problem being faction imbalance. especially back then huge guilds would coordinate for specific servers and completely outweigh one side over an other. if no one wanted to play the "good guy" faction on your server, which was most of them, you were boned. there was also stupid stuff that killed pvp in general like AoE working through locked gates and such
>>738112710most egregious was backcapping gates to bypass all faction mechanicsRUIN ruined both servers I played on because they would overwhelm everything through mass zergingt4 was unplayable dogshit
>>738112638>Its such a shame Warhammer Online was dead on arrival. EA and Bioware did it so fucking dirty. And imagine if it wasn't on a piece of shit engine like Gamebryo.As someone who literally played it at launch, the biggest problem was they did 2 factions instead of 3 like Dark Age of Camelot did. 2 faction pvp is always a mistake because it is an extremely binary situation. Either your side is getting stomped or their side is getting stomped, there's almost never any ebb and flow. With 3 factions you get the wild card factor that leads to less stompy gameplay. Maybe one side is dominating and so the two lesser sides ignore each other to focus on the dominating faction, so things start to even out over time. You saw that shit all the time in DAoC.It didn't help that low level pvp was genuinely and unironically more fun than high level pvp. I made so many fucking alts to play low level rvr, I literally ignored my high level main because it was way more fun to play at low levels.
>>738086738There's a good game under all the bullshit of Lost ArkDuring launch it was extremely funIt's the gook koreans that made the game super shit with all the systems surrounding it
>>738107018It sounds to me like you don't want to play RO in the first place.
>>738112901No, the problem was that internal company politics caused such a rift during development that they had to shunt out the game while it was unfinished. EA played a major hand in that. That's the reason why endgame/high lvl RvR felt worse.Mark had his company usurped under him prior to the Mythic-Bioware merger. That "stepping down" community letter was just PR bullshit.
>>738112901>>738112993I think people legit forget WAR launched with missing classes and capital cities. Classes were at least implemented. This lead to Empire, for example, missing a tank class. Any game today doing the same would get absolutely crucified.
>>738113076Yep. I don't know if having the slayer and choppa at launch would have made much of a difference, but the lack of the Blazing Sun was definitely felt at higher levels. Chosens, if there was less than two Bright Wizards, could run through unimpeded which was crazy.
>>738095832>What does Blizzard have to do to make WoW PvP an esport?A different combat system
>>738086382Ffxiv has proven time and time again that mmo "gamers" detest gameplay
>>738111938>So you're a no-games?I've been talking about all these cool games like BRs, extraction shooters, MOBAs, WoW, Minecraft, Rust, ARK, etc.>I like Eve but is small, niche25k concurrent is good.>and will never get any innovation anymoreApparently they're making a survival MMO.
>>738112383They only recently added abilities. It was a light-heavy melee spam MMO.
>>738114929WoW's tab target class fantasy is good. It's had better iterations, like MOP and WOD, but as long as they keep 4+ abilities, they'll have a better combat system than MOBAs because of trinity and ability count.
>>738086382>lost arkThe unfathomably greedy monetisation. The game was actually really fun, best gameplay of all arpgs imo.
>>738086382Lost Ark lost everyone at the endgame grind because it was so absolutely fucking atrocious and they refuse to fix it. Pretty much everyone I know loved that game and would at least consider going back to it if it would let you actually play it. Instead it's just blueballing you at every opportunity.New world no idea, seemed boring to me idk what the appeal was even supposed to be.
>>738086382Lost Ark went all in on raids at the expense of all else in the game, and predictably died because of it. Nobody wants to deal with that bullshit.
>>738117963>make solo raids as concession>they are year+ behind the regular raidsI fucking hate dev raidfags so much.
>>738091746>>738092995>>738099003>>738099587looking at these images for ants actually make it seem like they have somewhat of a foundation, but since it's a modern game (let alone an mmo) I already know it's not fun to playcan someone confirm?
>>738118174That was never going to fix anything, even if it was current with the latest raids.
>>738093241>every other popular online game is centered around PvPPopular online pvp games are almost all strictly organized team & matchmaking based. This is important, in part because it allows people to mentally cope with losing.>it was my teammates' fault >we had bad match ups>people were afk >someone picked wrong and should have picked x class instead >we were up against a smurfers >that was a bad map for our group comp>etc.Games that feature 1v1 and pvp that isn't organized team matches typically experience massive drop offs in player retention (like fighting games) and only manage to retain a small subset of ultra-serious players.
>>738118216
>>738093241Not a single RPG-adjacent game that includes PvP in it is more popular because of it. In fact, PvP is the first thing to die in every single online community accross the board.PvP is only good in PvP only games, and therefore only popular within that medium. This is a distinction that, unsurprisingly, you seem to stupid to understand.
>>738119612this looks appealing to me>go to steam pagelolforget I asked
>>738086978>New World had good combat, good instances, and almost good economy. What else do you want?A good world design, a good storyline/worldbuilding, NPCs in towns and a consistent sense of an environment worth investing your time into.What it was, was an empty set of towns devoid of life, whatever storyline and design from the actual team there was was atrocious, and everything design wise (See: armour looks, character appearance, house decorations) was ugly as fuck so why would you spend time and effort getting it?You can make a pleasant enough set of mechanics, it doesn't matter if it's applied to a hollow environment that feels uninspired and cheap.
>>738086382No idea about lost ark, never got around to playing it.New World was a lack of content at launch, that devolved to mindlessly running laps around a high level area for gear.Leading to a collapse of the player base when they hit end game and a struggle to find players to do content when it actually released.Literally every single MMO has had a shitty launch, including WoW and Classic WoW. It's to be expected.
>>738086382Always weird reading these threads and seeing 0 mentions of any reason I personally play mmos... which is just to talk to people, hang out in crowded starter towns, role play and explore cool worlds. I don't think I ever seriously thought about pvp or end game raiding content ever. If I cared that much about gameplay I wouldn't be playing an mmo...My favorite memory in any mmo was from star wars galaxies. My brothers and I rolled three wookiee dancers and it was just funny watching the furry chicken nuggets dance and go out to harass random people in town. Eventually we got invited to dance on a spaceship and the interactions we had with the role playing crew was the funniest shit ever. I guess galaxies also had a pvp / faction system but it wasn't the reason I loved that game. I dunno. I personally played lost ark and I didn't get very far because the experience was just blast through story quests...and unlike something like maple story or swtor where at least the worlds you visit are cool, ark was just forests and deserts. Or in wow or ff where every area has cool music and lore to set the tone. lost ark was just boring. New world likewise just looked like generic survival crap with trees and mountains and wood forts. I don't want that stuff. I knew ashes of creation would fail for the same reason...too generic looking. I want the place I'm spending a bunch of time in to feel "cool".
>>738086382because mmos cost more money than they could ever profit from
>>738086382new world has a guaranteed success story skeleton but needs a decent dev to really hammer and chisel it.
>>738086382Because every single person that thinks the problem with MMOs is target combat instead of action combat is just a tourist that fundamentally doesn't like MMOs so they ride the hype train for a couple months and let the game die.
>>738120590realm of the mad god seems to be doing fine
but then again, Lost Ark is totally alive game, with fucking lots of players, and lots of new stuff every time, new raids, new jobs, everyone are playing it>muh steam 6000 onlineyes maybe, but on mail.ru servers, or korea, there are thousands of players daily.it is not best game ever game, but is it alive and totally okay
>>738120548PvPers will tell you players want to have the fear of death anytime they are logged in. PvEers will tell you players want to poopsock engame raiding for a title and a glowing weapon. Yet all the massive success mmos are the ones catering to lifestyle players that collect minions and spend all day in towns comparing glamour.Best part of mmos will always be leveling for me, only one Ive stuck around in for over ten years thanks to some cool dudes I met while leveling.
are there any mmos where you control a whole party?i've only seen this in granada espada where you control 3 characters at once, but i want more
>>738093370>The only good things to look forward to in MMOs are private servers.Nah, private servers could theoretically be the holy grail but to this day both rAthena and Herc have CHOSEN to become more clunky and stiff than the official servers for some retarded reason.Content wise yeah sure I fucking love classic and doing the old content instead of the screenwide 17x17 nuke solo fiesta, but any time I play a fucking melee class or try to mystic amp in a private server I want to kill myself.
>>738086382The endgame was chest runs. That was it. Yes it had pve content but the best gear in the game dropped from specific roll combos that were not present in any other part of the game or were not worth the time and effort. Chest runs were far too efficient.
>>738122647And they were fun because it was a world activity and people could form up to mess with them.It had the correct format for a pvp mmo; it was a rewarding easy activity that caused emergent conflict and required organization.
>>738086382Amazon is a bad publisher.Coincidentally there are no good mmo publishers other than self published games.
>>738086382I liked Lost Ark but bots and RMT related to them ruined the market.
>>738086382because gachas replaced mmos since you don't need to depend on mentally retarded team mates to fight shit
>>738086978>New World had good combatI played it when it first came out and all I remember is the fully bolt-action muskets and melee being your character doing dork souls moves on enemy mobs, and enemy mobs never staggering and just sitting in your face stabbing you
>>738123387but bots cannot go into raids
>>738093370>The only good things to look forward to in MMOs are private servers.Thirdie cope. When I play an MMO it's imperative that I can have a reasonable expectation that my character will still be there 10 years from now, I don't pick this genre to play for 3 months while it's trendy, the genre's whole point is being a persistent world. Private servers, with very limited exceptions, are way too volatile and corrupt to call home.
>>738124735I have never heard of a person returning to playing an MMO after years with the same account. Not even once.
>>738086382Lost Ark did great they made like 1 billion dollar from whalesNew world was shit though not sure why you would say they "failed" when LA profited greatly>>738105246Dumbass
>>738112954I played it on launch, it was already so fucking bad
>>738086382in general we can ask 'why are MMO failing?'and the answer is easy: gachas finished what sites like discord started. devs see MMO's as too risky lolits why nowadays most MMO's still around are either 2.5D stuff like wakfu/dofus and that other third one that i forgot or older 3D games. The only BIG mmo's around is like FF14, WOW and PSO2NGS and some i'm forgetting probMMO's are genuinely interesting but in the current modern climate? they aint gonna fly. Maybe we might see more adoptions of MMO's as a way to circumvent online censorship with most first world nations pushing ID identification on the interweb. but even then they'd just be glorified chat's like what happened to transformice kindaAnyway pic unrel, i just really love the alien queen
>>738086382New World was the most soulless game i've literally ever played, it's exactly what I expect AI created games to be like in the future.
>>738119653>Not a single RPG-adjacent game that includes PvP in it is more popular because of it.You don't have the numbers for that.
>>738119771The storyline was serviceable, and towns had crafting benches and faction NPCs -- other NPCs would have cluttered it. The armor sets also weren't bad.
