It's fucking grim
If Steve isn't in his own tier it's a disingenuous list.
>>738402943SteveGODS...
Ultimate NS2 will fix things with more broken fighters in Fighters Pass EX!
>>738402943Roy’s should be like 6 spots higher. Mega Man should be damn near top 10.
>>738402943I miss when my nigga pikachu was top 10
Tier list made me think there's a new smash gameThere's no way people still play a game that's 3+ years old lol!
>>738403458Ultimate just had one of its biggest tournaments ever three days ago, Kagaribi 15. But there's a big asterisk on that, because the game is dying outside of Japan. The Japanese just fucking love Ultimate for whatever reason.
>>738403024The tier list was determined by top 100 votes. It's understandable that they'd need to gaslight themselves into thinking that Steve isn't SSS, for their sanity.
>>738403556It's literally the best smash game to date. That's irrefutable. Westoids obsession with Gaylee needs to be studied.
>>738402943don't care still playing 'dorf
>>738402943What makes Yoshi good and Marth bad? I remember Marth being good because he's fast.
>>738403787Not really, its just a matter of pride for smashfags that they never """had to""" ban a character before so they convince themselves its not ruining the game when it is, just like Bayo and Meta Knight did before.
>>738404180They've tried to ban Steve, but Nintendo steps in and tells them they'll shut down the tournament if they do.
Mega Men, I'm feeling good.
>>738403024>>738403075what does minecraft guy do thats so busted anyways?Im not a smashfag, I ask seriously if its some kind of obvious answer.
>>738404154Yoshi is able to just freely escape pressureMarth isn't fast in a game with sonic and having to space tippers is not worth it, his niche sucks now.
>>738404232Is that so? Got a link? Would be funny to see Nintendo actively making the scene worse rather than passively.
Why is Simon so low? Why are Mario and Dr. Mario so different?
>>738402943>top 5 characters are also the top 5 most annoying/cancerous to play against Grim
>>738403024if sonic wasn't a direct counter i would agree
>>738403556Japanese don't do hype, they are into things for the duration.Westerners dominated the SSBU scene in the first couple years after its release, but they get tired of any specific game after a while so they moved on.Meanwhile the Japanese just kept putting more and more effort into Ultimate, resulting in them dominating more and more of the rankings over time.
>>738404264Steve will camp you out of the game. He can build actual walls that lock you into approaching into one specific jump in point that makes you incredibly predictable and easy to punish. While you're trying to figute out how to even approach, he mines for materials to make minecarts, an incredibly fast projectile that hits like a truck and can stunlock you if you get caught in it, and diamonds that make his moves much more powerful.
>>738402943Jesus, what the hell happened to Villager?
>>738404421Dr Mario is Mario with dogshit recovery and less combo potential.
>>738404421>Simon He's shit in close combat and made to be a zoner but his zoning tools are crap because they take so long to come out>dr mario Terrible recovery only slightly better than Mac, far less combo game than base Mario, kill throw replaced with an underwhelming one
>>738404421If simon goes offstage he dies. In this game almost everyone has cracked recoveries, so the few that have mediocre or bad ones are really really bad.If simon gets too close to his opponent, he dies.
>>738404154>What makes Yoshi good and Marth bad?tl;dr Yoshi has the attributes of a good Ultimate character and Marth doesn't.There are four character archetypes in competitive Ultimate: characters who run away (Sonic, Snake, G&W), characters who kill you in one hit (Kazuya, Luigi), characters who run away and kill you in one hit (Steve, Min Min, ROB), and characters who are good enough that it doesn't matter that they can't run away or kill you in one hit (Aegis, Fox, Yoshi). Yoshi is one of those "good enough" characters because he has>extremely high lateral air speed and acceleration>big, lingering aerialsYoshi's lateral air speed is so high that he can short hop 5 ft. away, drift into your shield, fair it, and drift out without getting punished. If you're not one of the other three archetypes of character, Ultimate is all about spamming safe, auto-cancel aerials in neutral and spamming strong aerials in advantage. Yoshi does both of these well, and his lateral air speed makes him generally good.In contrast, Marth has low air speed and mediocre aerials. His grounded moves, like all grounded moves in Ultimate with a few exceptions, are effectively irrelevant. His tipper gimmick doesn't function in a game where you can't actually combo into tipper fsmash, or precisely space it in neutral / advantage. General mechanical changes in 4 and Ultimate really raped Marth's identity as a character, whereas characters like Yoshi who love spamming safe aerials benefited.
>>738404378I don't have a link, but there's been two instances in recent history. One tournament tried to simply ban Steve and Nintendo stepped in. Another tried to "balance" Steve by banning crafting, and Steve players reported the tournament to Nintendo. The TO said that he, "got the call from Big N," and the Steve ban was reversed. This was Let's Make Big Moves 2026. I can't remember the other tournament.
Notice how now that most of the rankers are Japs the tier list is 10 times more accurate than any of the previous ones
>>738404421>Simonabysmal recovery, and his entire gameplan is spamming ftilt and angled fair / bair. generally speaking, it is significantly worse to have hitboxes that are long and narrow than it is to have ones that are short and wide, because jumping is so strong in Ultimate. when someone is running at you with a knife, what do you want: a bolt-action rifle, or a pump-action shotgun?simon's damage and knockback are also extremely undertuned. he does not kill until like 180%-200% outside of specific setups.>Dr. Marioabysmal recovery and short, stubby limbs. lacks the stuff that makes Mario broken (uair, up B, fair). too honest.
What went wrong with woomy? I remember her being considered top notch early on. Was it the lack of kill power, being mogged by the pay2wins, or something else?
>>738404264its mostly just that his attack have insane frame data and hitboxes. he also cannot be reasonably whiff punished since he can also move while attacking and recovering so he can just spam attacks like a retard and win. he was supposed to be balanced around the fact that he needs time to get set up, but it basically takes one pico second to do it so it does not matter.the character is also generally boring to watch, which is worsened by the fact that he makes up most of the characters you would see if you watched ssbu. so he kinda killed the scene lol.https://ultimateframedata.com/steve.
>>738405826Pit 2.0 Has a bunch of good tools but no great ones to help push up. The ink gimmick doesn't help in a game where everyone is actively running away from each other so you're not likely to hit fatty high damage attacks.
Holy shit Steve is miserable to fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF2kocRELQs
>>738404264Steve, like other top tiers, doesn't actually play Smash - and he's the best at not playing Smash. If you don't approach Steve, he gets stronger by mining resources. Any resource allows him to place blocks, iron allows him to spam minecart and anvil, and gold and diamond make almost all of his degenerate moves even more degenerate. Minecart, by the way, is an armored burst option that kills at 80% and can be jump canceled into a lingering, projectile command grab that kill confirms on- or off-stage. Even if you don't play Smash, you can understand that this is an affront against god.Basically, you do not want to let Steve mine. The issue is that approaching Steve is difficult because he has safe, disjointed moves - some of which explicitly break the rules of Smash, like a utilt he can safely spam WHILE moving. And approaching Steve is even more difficult because he can place blocks. If a Steve player places a 2-or-3-block-high wall between you and him, you've lost neutral. You're now in a disadvantageous position, because every second you're on the other side of that wall, Steve is mining more resources. So you have two choices:>jump over the wallThis is a losing choice>break the wallThis is a losing choiceIt's a lose:lose, and all Steve has to do to force it is get 2 seconds of breathing room to place 2-3 blocks. Steve pretends to play Smash until it is no longer advantageous for him to play Smash, and when it isn't he just hides behind a wall and mines, forcing your hand in a way that's disadvantageous to you.He's probably the worst designed fighting game* character of all time, outside of kusoge like HnK.
>>738405826It's the kill power + zoners need some strong up close options as a backup to be any more than a mid tier in ult
>>738402943season pass 2 literally ruined the game
>>738405538It's not like the Japanese are infallible, though. They overrate Yoshi and Falcon because of local representation (2 Yoshi players and 1 Falcon player).
>>738406547both of these characters are complete fucking AIDS honestly. mega man is just as lame as Steve, Snake, etc.
>>738406547this is so fucking stupid looking, its like one person is playing single player and the other person is actually trying to play the game
>>738406981top tiers really just take turns one player gaming each other, even at the highest level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oNXxkZuqxQwhen i say highest level, i mean highest level. this is arguably the most competitive smash ultimate set ever played - the #1 ranked player vs. the former #1 ranked player, at the most competitive tournament of all time - and it's a complete fucking clownshow.
>tier rankingswho do you trust more, a veteran game designer making all characters balanced or some chucklefuck internet autismos swearing no no x character is better than b charactertier rankings were always a meme by faggots with an overinflated sense of self importance
>>738407243>a veteran game designer making all characters balanced>sakurai>making characters balanced
>>738407243>Same 5 characters win everything>Same 15 characters get top 8 for everything>"Hey these characters seem stronger than others">ERM HOW MANY YEARS OF VETERAN DEV EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE?
>>738407243not that i don't appreciate it, but the thread has already made it past the point where you need to post blatant bait for it to survive
>>738407585>>738407574>>738407394not a coheremt argument in sight
>>738406927nah i don't think anything mm is doing is as lame as "i literally wall myself off while i secure my win condition"
>>738402943whats grim? that people make tier lists for party games? I agree and if a couple characters make the game miserable for compfags to play, then good, let them suffer for being insufferable faggots
my ninjas are never getting into smash
>>738402943Feels nice to be validated about Samus after all these years of seeing her potential. And no not because of wifi Samus players being shitheads. I am the rare character upplayer.
>>738408813It's hard for Samus to be a bad character when she's so good at what a character needs to be good at in Ultimate: running away. She's similar to Mega Man: they both do what good characters do, but because they're slightly worse at it than top tiers they tend to be seen as redundant. That, and I think people tend to underrate older characters.
>>738406870The A- tier shouldn't even exist. Corrin and Falco should be A tier, Falcon and Greninja should be at the top of B+, and Shulk should be wallowing somewhere in the C tiers but that last one will necer happen.
>>738409010Has nothing to do with running away, watch how the good Samus players play. Samus has busted ledge trapping first and foremost, but she shares a quality with ROB that also makes him good in the meta, she can quickly shit on Steve's blocks and make the matchup not totally miserable even if it is still unfavorable. I forgot what Steve player it was but the way Yaura moved with Samus, it was like he was smothering the Steve player.
>>738402943I remember when the consensus was Bowser over DK but regardless of patches I knew from day 1 DK had way more potential. His flaws are really bad though, but I think it's a good placement
>>738409342But, dude, Shulk has POTENTIAL
>>738403956>It's literally the best smash game to date. That's irrefutable. Westoids obsession with Gaylee needs to be studied.Steve turned Ultimate into kusoge, what are you talking about?
>>738409662He's probably a casual player, but even casual players are forced to fight Steve and Min Min online, so who knows
>>738404264Since no one else mentioned it, Steve can also break out of combos, basically you can be punished for landing a hit on him because he can cancel and hit you back before your animation even finishes.I think its like frame perfect to do it, but its still fucking retarded he even has the option if someone's good enough with him.
>>738409798Wasn't this supposed to be banned, lolThen again, the community can't even ban planking, so I shouldn't be surprised
>>738402943Its vindicating to see Snake in the top 3. I always knew he was broken as fuck.
>>738402943OH NO NO NO NO BANJOKES DON'T LOOK
>>738409662Yea? Steve is cancer, but top tiers in other games are objectively worse and more broken. Ultimate provides a wide range of cast members to play on top of it, the highest percentage of playable S tiers as well.
>>738402943Shulk will never not be an overrated piece of shit, will he
>>738404154The game is obscenely campy and marth doesn't get much from that.
>>738402943Last I checked Sonic was B tier, what happened?
>>738410091Some Shulk player beat a rusty Sparg0 a month or two ago. That's enough copium to last Shulk players the remaining 2-3 years of Ultimate.
>>738410195sonic gets to sit on one side of the stage just waiting for 80% of the cast to approach and take 40 damage for free with nearly no counter because this game is poorly designed
>>738402943And get ready for the next smash to suck even harder with cuts
>>738410195He was always good, people just learned how to play him and realized how broken it is that one of his spin dashes has a second of i-frames after it's released.
>>738402943>Cloud not in S tier>But Joker isI see you are spargo's last soldier.
>>738410195>Last I checkedWhat, in 2019 or some shit?
>>738404264CHICKEN JOCKEY
>>738404264He wasn't properly playtested.
>>738402943I remember when everyone complained about Pyra/Mythra like they were brawl meta knightThey are still S tier but at this point it's like complaining about melee falco or something
>>738410195I don't think there has ever been a point in smash where that cunt was anything but top tier. Never metaknight or bayonetta, but certainly top 5 if not top 3 material.
>>738410361Cloud isn't S tier. Sparg0 carries the character like Leo carries Byleth. While he does have the benefit of being anti-meta in some respects, it's not enough to offset his weaknesses, especially his recovery.
>>738407098>>738406547I watched this for like 3 minutes and couldn't stomach it any further, who the hell thinks this looks even remotely fun?PVP games, and especially fighting games, over the past decade or so have devolved to the point where it is less about both people playing the game and more about making it impossible for the other person to play the game. You see this in everything from Street Fighter to Dota and Deadlock.
>>738404147'Dorf is actually good if you are not playing against a sweaty pro player. He is only bad because pro players are so fast that he literally cannot get a single hit off, and then he is also one of the only characters in this game who has a bad recovery. Basically everyone in this game can just jump off the right side of the stage, fly under the stage and come back around from the left side. Except 'dorf. Ironic because he actually flies in his debut game.Also there's a hornet in my fucking bathroom just sitting on the closed window trying to walk through the clear glass.Lol.
>>738403024What I hate most about Steve is that he centralizes the entire metagame around himself. Every good character either plays well into Steve's stall/keep away playstyle or matches it. It made the Ultimate meta extremely stale as a spectator.
>>738402943Little mac will kick your characters ass every time.
>>738402943When did my boys G Dubbs and ROB get so good? I always played them for the memes and thought they were on the lower end of things.
>>738402943>5 character that I play are in S>10 character that I play are in A>9 character that I play are in B>7 character that I play are in C>7 character that I play are in D>1 character that I play are in Enot bad
>>738402943Seeing Luigi that high as a diet Kazuya is disgusting
>>738402943Aegis is unironically too low
>>738410832Ultimate players have Stockholm syndrome. They're miserable, they know they're miserable, but they refuse to play anything else because it isn't the newest Smash game. They already hate Ultimate, but as soon as Smash 6 comes out they'll drop it like a fucking rock and you'll hear a lot about how bad it was competitively.
>>738410948>name is little mac>you can literally jump over him as a hard counter to his offensewhat did they mean by this?
>>738402943man, the villains always get shat on in smash
>>738411389No, too many weaknesses. S- is about as high as the character should be
>>738411074ROB has everything you could want out of a character and is one of the most common characters in tournaments. G&W has a simple gameplan of juggling the shit out of everyone and a godlike recovery.
>>738402943there are games coming out that only have 14 characters, 14 being S tier is pretty fucking good
>>738411074>G&WBasically, it's because you can't touch his shield. There are other aspects of the character that are broken (nair, uair, bair, usmash, dsmash, neutral B, down B, ftilt) but playing "my shield is lava" is the biggest reason he's broken.>ROBBy far the most privileged character who's still fundamentally playing Smash. He has basically everything a character could want except a smaller hurtbox and a better out-of-shield option. Massive hitboxes, godlike frame data, an amazing projectile, another amazing projectile that's actually a lingering item that can confirm into kills or a 0-to-death combo, multiple kill moves, multiple kill throws, a DI mix-up that can kill, and a recovery that's just>I fly back to the stage, lol
Puff too low, she should be between Pac-Man and Tink
>>738404264If you want to know just one thing that's exceptionally disgusting it's his UTilt. It's fast as shit, safe on shield, spammable, and he can WALK during it. So even if you try to roll out of him Up tilting your shield he can just walk over during the animation and continue. It also combos into itself, his up smash that kills, his kill aerials, and since he can build blocks in the air laglessly he can just ladder you into the air with it, so any connection of UTilt leads to a free 70% combo for damage or a kill confirm from 60% up.And what makes it even worse is that that ridiculous scrapping move is on a character designed to camp you out and can reduce your approach options passively and better than most projectile chars with his block building. Any time you make it past his zoning and try to pressure him you need to be 100% sure that you're locking him down from using his Utilt or Jab (which he can also walk with) which is better close range scrapping than most rushdown characters in the game.
>>738411389scrub
I only use young link, i don't care that he's shit according to comp players. I like spamming B for free wins.
>>738402943I feel awful for the fox players to go through that torment in to get his results that high
>>738411926idk what the fuck they were thinking giving steve and min min the ability to walk while attacking. that's just something you don't do. regardless of how imbalanced steve and min min ended up being, it's so profoundly stupid to introduce a game-breaking concept on not one but two characters less than a year before the game stops getting support. insane.
>>738411074They've been good for over a decade.
>>738412219>introduceMega Man could already do that
>>738411389They are the only S tier with legitimately bad recovery and their results/representation has slightly gone down over the years, it makes sense they also go down slightly.
>>738402943I play Smash like once a month when I go over to my buddy's house. I like pokemon trainer just because he's fun. Does anyone actually play him in tournaments?
>>738412528lemons aren't really comparable, and even then they're incredibly annoying
>>738412870I think Tweek likes him
>>738412219Min Min's walking is fine. She actually needs it because her attacks are so ridiculously laggy that her tilts would be actually unusable if they locked you in place like her smashes. Mega Man and Banjo also had (mostly) free movement while attacking and it wasn't a problem. It's just the fact that Steve's jab and utilt would be fantastic close range and combo moves without the walking that get placed into overpowered tier with how much better walking makes them. And as I said above, the walking really just makes Min-Min's kit function, it's the kit design in general that's overpowered
>>738412870He was really popular in the beginning, but he fell out of favor because people don't want to have to learn three okay characters when they can instead learn one really good character.
>>738405483>I don't have a linkSo it didn't happen. funny how that always turns out to be the case, eh?
>>738412870no, he's too honest. it sounds like i'm joking, but it's the best way to describe why he isn't played. pokemon trainer is probably the best designed gimmick character in any Smash game, because he's just three basic archetypes taped together: rushdown, disjoint, heavy. now look at the top tiers in >>738402943. in order:>camper, camper, zoner, camper, disjointed zoner, disjointed zoner, "kills you in one hit">camper, disjoint, "kills you in one hit", camper, rushdown, rushdown, rushdown with a comeback mechanicthere's three issues here: one, Charizard is dead weight; two, Ivysaur is a worse camper / zoner than these top tiers, even though the camper / zoner archetype is inherently good; and three, rushdown is the weakest viable archetype and, like Ivysaur, Squirtle is worse than top tiers.the flexibility of being able to switch between these three archetypes on the fly doesn't matter when you'd rather just be playing a fucking broken camper / zoner / camper-zoner if you actually want to win.
>>738411778>better out-of-shieldNair OoS is one of the best OoS options in the game
>>738413192kys faggothttps://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1or6or9/steve_will_be_legal_at_lmbm_after_initially_being/
>>738402943I'm happy for him. Came a long way from being trash in brawl to mid in 4 and now this
>>738405483>Another tried to "balance" Steve by banning craftingNo, they tried to ban Steve, but they used indirect language that they figured Nintendo (and normalfags like you) wouldn't fully grasp.
>>738413192https://x.com/MaxKetchum_/status/1986904185627967498https://x.com/NRWCup/status/1766500372099580174
>>738412870Only Quidd, but he's just not a high level player in the current meta. Same deal with Lucina and Mr. E. I'm not saying those characters are secret killers since everyone above them is clearly better, but if someone leveled up as a player like Peabnut did with Megaman you could maybe see them in top 8s here and there. But no one at the top level plays them
>>738413817ok
>>738413163>>738413540>>738413987That's a shame but my friend really likes playing Marth who apparently according to that chart is even worse than pokemon trainer so I got that at least
>>738412528Mega Man walking while shooting is the Mega Buster gimmick in the games. A lot of weapons stop Megaman while moving but the Mega Buster allows full movement so that he can dodge and attack at the same time. It would be soulless if they didn't port Mega Buster mechanics.
>>738402943
>>738404180Upcoming tournaments are gonna have rules that don't ban Steve but cucks his players by not letting them counterpick stages and shit
>>738413987The issue with Quidd is that he barely goes to anything, while Mr. E is a jobbing retard who was never in the same ballpark as Protobanham and switched to Aegis anyway.
>>738414228And Steve players will run to Nintendo
>>738414208>The honest Olimar vs the failure of game design Foxlol
>>738404264tr4.5h is a passive game, if you haven't noticed the top tiers are entirely characters that are the best at hiding, camping, and running away. Steve, Sonic, Snake, R.O.B... they are all good at being cowardly. The only honest man here is Luigi, everyone else plays dirty
somebody post the perfect smash character roster with a large count
>>738414146The tier chart only matters if you're tryharding. Everyone might as well be c tier if you only play once a month casually unless you're actively taking advantage of someone who has no recovery like the e tier shitters.
>>738402943I must be blind, where's Richter?
>>738402943dont care still picking dr mario
>>738414714with simon
>>738410415Yeah, there's now way you actually kept up with Smash all these years, right?
>>738414626>luigi>honest...
Why do MkLeo fanboys always make excuses when he loses?
>>738402943>Steve S+>Banjo C-
>>738404421Ever played the og castlevanias? He is molases. Doc needed to be different already
>>738402943Still too low.
>>738414853Just jump retard
>>738414958stinky steve
>>738414920A Leo win isn't just a Leo win, it's a symbolic victory over the competitive meta of Ultimate itself. It lets players deny the reality that Ultimate is a slow, campy, lame game where slow, campy, lame players thrive. Most people can't accept that, and they'd rather make excuses when Leo loses. The reality is that Leo's just getting older, and he's playing an older style of Ultimate even if he's using the best characters for that style (Aegis and Joker).
>>738404421>Dogshit mobility>Some great moves like Ftilt, Fair and Bair but most of his normals underwhelming>Maybe the worst grab in the game with mediocre throws>Bottom 5 recovery>Holy water is dogshit>Worst killpower in the game by a large margin>Cannot deal with short characters at allHe can play decent keepout at times but his complete inability to kill along with a godawful recovery makes him THAT bad
>>738402943I honestly think Ike is the worst character in the game, he legitimately has nothing going for him, I know he's already ranked low but it's still too high for him. This comes from someone who dropped him out of sheer boredom.Compare him to Ganondorf who is usually considered the worst. He has more competitive results than Ike, he has some genuinely okay moves (nair, uair, bair, dash attack, up smash) and for all his weakness he has the potential to actually explode his opponent in a couple of hits. His garbage mobility and recovery hold him back but he has actual strengths.What does Ike have? His gameplan is, unironically, spamming nair over and over and over again, and if he hits an opponent they take like 20.. Ike has worse moves, an absurdly predictable, linear, and boring gameplan and no explosive advantage state. He has nothing.
I only play Little Mac and Ganondorf, they are the most fun
>>738415370He's not only losing to slow, campy, lame characters.>>738415516Leo somehow got 65th at a tournament when he lost to an Ike a few months ago, so I guess it can still work.
>>738410809Leo also carries Joker. Literally no other person in the world plays him at that level.
>>738402943So the final dlc character will always be the most broken one
>>738415716no, because sora was the last one
acola is the best player of the final version of the game, which is obviously more important whether you like the meta or not. acola is the GOAT
>>738415754Oh yeah. I forgot clown shoes was in the game
>>738415837Nobody thinks Acola is the current number 1.It's still Doramigi by the end.
>>738416123NTA but he said acola is the GOAT and not necessarily the current #1 player. People will bitch that he's a tier whore, but it's true. Plus right now it is very close between him and Doramigi for #1.
>>738414626All smash games suffer from stalling because of the fundamental design flaw of platform fighters that there isnt a built in anti-stall tech.Traditional fighters, both 3d and 2d, knew stalling by running away is lame and made all walk/run/dash back tech be slower or cover short distances.No platform fighter has tackled the issue yet but the moment someone finds a good solution for it everyone will copy it
>>738404421Doc is pretty much Mario without any of his strengths, he's slow, has a terrible recovery, little combo potential, and one of the worst air speeds in the game. Mario is basically the opposite of that with his biggest weakness being stubby range (which Doc also has).
>>738406547Its cancer, but this megaman doesn't understand the MU either. He should be spamming his bair on the blocks and pressuring Steve with leaf and grabs rather than breaking the blocks just to try to camp him out (lol)
>>738402943Disjointed hit boxes are busted, WHO KNEW
>>738402943When did G&W get so high?? I havent followed smash in many years
>>738418972meta is now defined by stall and anti-stall around steve
>>738419120How about they just ban Steve
>>738419228SeriouslyHe's more busted than fucking meta knight in brawl
>>738419228Nobody ever accused smash players of being smart, hence why they do shit like continue using the most retarded terms possible like calling end frames "lag".
>>738419290LOL, no. Brawl MK can go under the stage forever and is better on any counterpick.
One day a Smash game will come out where Mewtwo is good, but I'll be dead by then.
>>738418972>Mr. Game & Watch is ranked 4th out of 82 on the current tier list, placing him in the middle of the S+ tier. This is a drastic improvement from his placement in Smash 4 where he was ranked 38th out of 54, and is his best placement in the series. Mr. Game & Watch's most notable strength is his unrivaled out of shield game: Fire is arguably the most effective out of shield option in the game, as it possesses quick startup at frame 3, with large hitboxes that are positioned on both sides of Mr. Game & Watch, allowing him to effectively punish moves that are the slightest bit mis-spaced. In addition, Mr. Game & Watch also possesses a strong combo game rooted from his baiting and punishing with up special, into multiple follow up hits such as his highly damaging up aerial, which also serves as an amazing juggling tool. Complimenting his combo game is his KO potential, with very strong tilt attacks, as well as smash attacks that are safe on shield due to their low ending lag. His ledgetrapping is also among the best in the game, with an indefinite attack in the form of Chef, which significantly complicates an opponent's ability to get back on stage and gives Mr. Game & Watch edgeguarding and gimping opportunities. Finally, Oil Panic allows Mr. Game & Watch to deal with zoners and projectile users, as it acts as both a reflector and an absorption based move, and if fully charged, can be released on an opponent for a KO.
>>738419954Nah you're stuck in low tier hell forever with Link and DK
>>738419954Project M
>>738418972look up miya
>>738419954
>>738418972You basically can't touch his shield without getting punished for it
>>738404264There literally just isn't anything about him that isn't busted. Even if you took away his ability to literally change the map, he would still be excellent because all of his moves are just great. But he CAN change the map, he can create a choke point wherever he wants, and force you to approach in a very specific fashion which makes you perfectly predictable. And if you don't approach him he can just zone you out. Every single part of his kit was a mistake
>>738420007G&W is like the antimeta character. The other tippy top tiers all play the percentage game extremely well and are happy to trade hits most of the time. Meanwhile G&W is extremely light and has to outplay you to score a kill outside of super high percents. But his kit is so busted he can just win almost every interaction if you play well and the percentage game doesn't matter anymore.
>>738402943Based Luigi
If smash 6 doesnt come out in the next ten years people might finally realize Isabelle and Mii swordfighter are the best characters in the game
How can smash6 fix the stalling bitch meta
>>738404540>Westerners dominated the SSBU scene in the first couple years after its release, but they get tired of any specific game after a while so they moved on.Anon, many many many of the top players in the West are still playing. MKLeo, who was #1 for years, made Top 4 at Kagaribi this past weekend. Here's him playing the current #1 playerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SoKDI3zVFs
So they can't ban steve entirely because nintendo throws a hissy fit any time anybody suggests banning a character, but surely they can still make anti-stalling rules right? They did it for melee at least.
>>738404540Americans stopped dominating because so many of their big tourneys closed down like The Big House, 2GG, Summit, Frostbite, Panda, etc. with barely any good replacements. Burgers had all that shit, so they weren't bitching and whining about Japan being smaller and easier to attend majors in like they do today.
>>738402943Took an insane amount of buffs but I’m satisfied with Ryu’s spot
>This is the 2nd smash game in a row where the DLC characters completely destroyed the game balance and invalidated 90% of the castThis is going to keep happening isn't it?
>>738419228They literally can't ban Steve
>>738422457Why
i hope Smash 6 can free us from this, along with a new creative directorbut Nintendo's games take 10 years to gestate these days
>>738404264He can warp the terrain by building blocks. He can place blocks by a ledge to prevent a character from reaching the ledge. He can put blocks behind himself so that if you hit him with Smash attack that would kill him, he can survive the killing move by bouncing off the block, basically stripping you of another KO option. He can place blocks in the air to do Smash Attacks and shield despite having low mobility. And he has insane burst moves that can kill in the form of his anvil, that can reversal and kill you if you get too into the zone juggling him in the air and his minecart that can run you over. The mine cart also is a command grab that you can get caught with so he can run up to you to hit you with a Smash attack.But the biggest thing he has is that he can mine for resources. Among them is the diamond that lets him kill at ~60% in certain conditions compared to everyone killing at 120%. So he'll set up 3 blocks at the start of the game and hide behind them and hunt for it. This immediately puts the onus on the opponent; do you let him become super charged? Or do you try to deter him from getting materials? And because he can create a house, it makes it really risky and dangerous to jump it.https://www.youtube.com/live/mVflVyrWS5Y?si=mdLhYtCQe94JMRw4&t=18252
>>738422469Daddy nintendo says no banning characters or your tourney gets shut down
>>738421867The sole reason why Japs are better than burgers in the games they actually care about is just because their culture values keeping shit to yourself instead of whining on twitter.
>>738418972>mained G&W since melee>loved my quirky wholesome chnugus stickly figure guy>learn he's top tier in smash u>watch a match>the most dogshit boring shit.All because his out of shield option is busted. If they nerfed his Up-B to be frame 9 he would drop to C-Tier.They are doing my bro fucking dirty.
>>738414958and you still lose
>>738402943None of you fags are on your region's PR
>>738414228Watch the retards keep running it back to PS2. Why do ultfags have a fetish for that stage?
>>738422712>NOOOOOOOO I CAN'T PLAY MY CHARACTER IF HE'S NOT A SHITASS LOW TIERfaggot
On the plus side Steve is 100% not coming back for Smash 6 so that's nice at least.
>>738402943>Year of our Lord 2026 Anno Domini>Shulk still holding onto A tierGlad he's still sorta upper crust but who is fighting to keep him up there?
Was there ever a way to save stages online? I'm probably gonna delete all the maps from 2019 that you guys made just because I got nephews that wanna play Smash Bros now.
>>738422886...Anon you can't seriously think that
>>738422814tiers r 4 queers dumbass. The way people play G&W is what annoys me rather than tiers, matches are stallfests and boring. He is only top tier due to the current state of the meta being to outstall Steve.Try better next time LARPER
>>738422712Idc how good he is now. I dislike how they changed fair.
>>738422886nintendo would be retarded for smash6 to not just be ultimate with more dlc
Why are smashfaggots so averse to banning characters? Just ban Steve if he's so cancerous to the metagame. Traditional fighting game communities have had no problems banning obviously broken and unhealthy characters in the past.
>>738423073idc about the fair the WOKE mob censored this
>>738423110Because Nintendo will shut down the tournament. Read the thread.
>>738423110muh nintendo
>>738423110nintendo gets uniquely pissy about banning characters for some reason, and threatens to get your tournament shut down if you try.
>>738402943>halfd the rosters "top tiers" are actually mega booty shit but they just so happen to be good into stevethe absolute state
>>738423110Their hands are tied this time. See: >>738413876
Oh yeah bro I'm sure G&W's would politely stop skullfucking people with up b out of shield if Steve didn't exist lmao
>>738423107>nintendo would be retardedThey have shown many, many times that they are in fact retarded. They literally just showed it again yesterday.
>>738404147If I can still beat 95% of players as Ganondorf that's good enough for me. I still get angry when I play elite smash, but I remind myself I'm playing literally the worst character in the game at a high level, so that I don't break things like before.
>>738423158>PC activists snuffed out the sole Native American representative in SmashI thought they were pro diversity?
>>738419228>>738422469Major tournaments need Nintendo approval ever since they introduced some community guidelines a few years ago. Nintendo outright tells the big tournaments that try to ban him that they can't ban characters. Locals and maybe regionals could get away with it, but for big tournaments it's not possible.
>>738404421I was wondering the same. The range on his whip and his projectiles are cancer. I don't expect him to necessarily be with the top half of characters but also not one of the worst.
>>738413876It's weird how Nintendo wants to be at a distance from the competitive scene after all the pedo exposes but they still want to have the ultimate say on how the games are streamed
>>738423610>>738404421At top levels you need to be able to kill. Simon/Richter can win neutral through zoning though they have a number of unsafe moves. But the issue is scoring the kill.You'll get locked at the ledge and swatted off the stage but you'll go through the motions till 175%. This is too high and gives you too many chances to come back and take a stock off of Simon. Also, the one player who kills early, T3Dom, stopped playing. If he were more active and got placements, Simon would climb in the chart. A lot of characters are undersold because they don't have a top player showcasing what they can do.
>>738423017I have a confession bros. I... I like watching Ultimate (when Steve isn't there). I feel good watching Miya go for 5 nairs before hitting some freaky setup I've never seen. I feel good when Doramigi hits an offstage edgeguard clip from 3 feet away. I feel good when Raru grabs 3 times and ends the match in half a minute. I feel good when Sonix hits a fully charged FSmash and deletes a stock at 50. Every other cancer character I have found enjoyment in watching their great players do their bullshit. If I could watch Ultimate with no Steve and everything else the exact same I would be happy.
>leave your game in a broken, unbalanced state>actively prevent the community that plays said game from fixing the problems themselvesIs there a term for this kind of behavior?
>>738422886Even if he did come back, they actually do tend to nerf clearly broken characters in new entries, so I don't think he'd be as busted as he is in Ultimate.
>>738412018He is super good. Having a projectile you can spam and combo into is a helluva privilege.
>>738415837Before last week I would say he's a fraud carried by Steve. But then he beat Spargo's Cloud, a notoriously shit matchup for Steve, 3-0. What the fuck.
>>738423983Why is Cloud a bad match-up for Steve? From what /v/ says Steve is better than every other character in the game.
>>738422994No one. Shulk has never been good in reality. it's literally all theorycraft and middling results from Kome, who retired years ago. Pure gaslighting
>>738423983Steve doesn't have any bad matchups you retard.
>>738423919like the opposite of the valve strategyYou could do nothing and win, but instead you choose to do something which you could easily not do and lose
>>738424103Cloud has something he can do when being camped out, mostly
Steve's entire gameplan is to build a wall and mine. The majority of characters have no way to destroy this wall quickly since they either have small hitboxes or slow attacks. Cloud on the other hand has a back-air that's extremely quick to come out and recover from and with a hitbox that easily hits all of Steve's blocks at once. So Cloud just does 2 back airs (takes literally 2 seconds) and Steve's wall is gone. This puts him under a lot of pressure since he has to actually outplay Cloud and create distance rather to mine rather than just stall with blocks. Also Cloud's aerials have massive hitboxes and will beat Steve's busted options like minecart and his own back-air. In a way Cloud is basically THE anti-Steve character to the point that famous Steve mains like acola and syrup have pocket counterpicks just for him.
>>738423919To be fair it took months after Steve's release for people to realize how insane he is. That's when the meta was still rush down aggression
>>738424374Fuck meant for >>738424103
>>738420451>Meanwhile G&W is extremely light and has to outplay you to score a killlollmaoyou're talking about a character that can just spam usmash and dsmash in neutral and never be punished for it
When the next Smash comes around, what players will have worst time adapting? I honestly think it will be funny to see the Steves adapt if Steve gets nerfed to hell (or remove altogether in the next game). It will be like watching all of Bayonetta/Cloud players suddenly fall off the face of the Earth when Smash moved onto Ultimate from 4. I think Acola will probably be fine, but a lot of the western Steve players? Their fraud days are numbered.
>>738415241Ok. *gets hit*Now that happens for 10 minutes.
>>738424381Yeah people still thought Aegis was broken at the time and while they are very strong, they have clear weaknesses so are used more as a counterpick instead of a catch-all character. Still funny to me seeing literally EVERYONE have a pocket Aigis even after Steve's release.
>>738421359It won't, unless it's by accident. For god's sake, Sakurai still balances heavies around casual FFAs.
Steve plays every game the same way. He hides like a coward and builds a wall to hide behind. He hides far away while he mines. Then he walks forward while hitting you with his sword until you die or he throws a minecart at you and you can't escape and then die.Simon and Richter die easily and none of their attacks do real damage. They are weak and they die easily.Dr. Mario is slower Mario and also dies easier.Marth is good in Melee because he can literally fly, and he's strong, and his grab is really long range.In Ultimate, Marth is a bad version of Lucina, he is weaker, he can't fly anymore, his grab isn't good anymore. He's just one of the bad sword fighters, he's just a boring swordfighter but his swordfighting isn't as good as the other 300 swordfighters in the game.Yoshi is usually good because he is strong and he is defensive in smash bros for some reason so he can tank hits and he can also hit people hard.The tier rankings assume both players are skilled at the game. When one or both players are bad at the game then the tier list loses all its power.Sonic has always been one of the best in ultimate because he is just too fast basically, he hits you and then he hits you again and then he hits you again and then you're dead and you didn't have time to move during all that time.Game & Watch was always good in ultimate because all of his attacks got improved.The characters that are consistently the worst in smash bros are usually the heavy, powerful, slow characters. Not always, but the trend is, the top tiers are the fast and strong. The mid tiers are the fast and weak. And the bottom tiers are the slow and strong/weak.Lol.
>>738424223Do you mean banning Steve or modding the game? If it's the former I agree it's silly that Nintendo even tells TOs not to do it when they clearly don't care enough to foster their own competitive scene. If it's the latter I disagree since modding eventually just leads to people completely reverse engineering and making their own Smash game which turns into an IP nightmare for Nintendo. It's the same reason why all online multiplayer games are closed systems and if the devs feel generous they implement limited time modes by the community.
>>738402943Every smash game gets the most boring dogshit imaginable as its endgame meta.
i havent read the thread at all but a game having 14 S-tiers is pretty impressive, isn't that more than 10% of the roster? All general playstyles are covered too
>>738422359Meta Knight and Ice Climbers might as well be DLC characters as well. Ironically, Melee has the healthiest competitive meta. Fox is obviously the best character in the game, but he requires an insane amount of execution to play optimally. Melee's problem is that the bottom third of the roster is full of duds, whereas you'll occasionally see a character like Mii Gunner, Robin, or Banjo break into a top 8 against the odds. That said, those odds are much more against you in Ultimate because it's MUslop. There are too many fucking MUs in Ultimate, and many of them might as well be 90:10. Any sufficiently big tournament will basically always boil down to top tiers because of the likelihood of encountering polarizing MUs.It's going to keep happening, yes.
>>738424850Ultimate actually has a pretty good representation of top tiers, if only because of the sheer size of its roster. Compare to Melee where it's pretty much all Foxes, Zain's Marth, and the odd Peach/Sheik.
>>738410361Cloud's recovery is dogshit without limit, his disadvantage state isnt great either. He also doesnt have any reliable kill confirms, just call outs or stray hits. Joker is the embodiment of P2W, and still is even after he got nerfed. Funny enough with people memeing about Cloud's Bair, I think this faggot spams it even more.
Steve feels like a shitpost character to me. Sakurai is well known for disliking competitive play. Steve is like the most blatant middle finger he could have given to competitive Smash.
>>738424732mostly the first one
>>738425014Joker's recovery is dogshit when in limit and his only real kill confirm without Arsene is a back air at ledge or drag down into down/up smash (notoriously hard to pull off). There is simply no world where Joker is p2w when he hasn't won a tournament in years. Literally only one player still makes top 8 with them with all the other Jokers either dropping him or retiring (ie. Zackray).
>>738424850Broadly speaking yes, but the problem is that this tier list isn't fully representative of the power level differences between the top tiers. There should realistically be like 2 tiers worth of power gap between steve and the next highest tier character.
>>738425047Eh the trend with the DLC characters is Sakurai focusing on making them accurate to the source material rather than gameplay. Sometimes you get shit like Min-Min or Steve who don't even play the same fucking game and other times you get >>>Banjo
>>738424381Steve was basically Mr. Potential for a solid year. It wasn't until acola started competing offline that everyone saw how broken he was. You can watch his sets at the Gimvitational and hear the commentators acting surprised at all the shit he was doing which is now standard Steve stuff.
>>738422994>but who is fighting to keep him up thereShulk being good is a mass delusion. People look at the guy with the biggest sword and a weird gimmick and go>swords are good>gimmicks are good>therefore Shulk is theoretically goodIf you actually look at the top tier, you'll notice that, no, swords aren't good. Swords haven't been good since the first year or so of Ultimate, when Palutena was the definitive sword / disjoint character and people didn't know how to play optimally. Aegis, Joker, Palutena, and Cloud are really the only viable sword characters, and each of them has not only disjoints and a gimmick, but fundamentally good attributes.
>>738425267It took 2 years for Acola to start consistently winning offline tournies with Steve. He was considered a gimmicky character and slept on for awhile. Compared to Bayo who literally destroyed competitive Sm4sh on release lmao
>>738423919Being Japanese
>>738424850Steve is really an SS tier character and the S/A bias is the typical modern tier inflation
>>738425380He was winning offline tournaments as soon as he showed up.
>>738402943Some retard had said Inshiteroar was good, I guess that was a fucking lie kek
>>738414203>It would be soulless if they didn't port Mega Buster mechanicsThey raped Samus' arm cannon and missiles in the first two games and no improvement has ever been made. Mega Man got lucky.>>738423674>ultimate sayI see what you did there.
>>738423873Sonix makes Sonic actually look fun
Smashfags deserve it for bullying Hax and Etika, while defending Leffen, Zero, and Nairo and also for being an unlikable lefty cabal. There's a reason /vg/ never has smash generals anymore.
>>738425617He seemed good until his best player got banned for no fucking reason.
is there a reason why smash players cant have a gentleman's agreement to not play Steve? other fighting games can manage it just fine, but the average smash autist's tolerance for bullshit is way too high
>64 Pikachu>Melee Fox>Brawl Metaknight>Sm4sh Bayonetta>Ultimate SteveWho ruined their respective game the most?
>>738425684>smashfags are one personSmash fans got bullied for missing Etika, remember how furious how snoys got when Etika got a pinned thread? Beneath Steve behavior
>>738423983Acola can actually play other characters who play Smash. Doramigi, Miya, and Hurt are all more dishonorable than him. Hurt and Miya have secondaries, but they're degenerate characters that don't play Smash.The evolution of Japanese competitive Ultimate is pretty funny, though>the first Japanese prodigy was Zackray, who played ROB but gradually became a GigaChad who just plays shit like Pit / Dark Pit>then Acola's Steve and secondaries started winning everything>then Miya's G&W>then Hurt's Snake>now Doramigi's Min MinIt's just a gradual arc towards the lamest shit possible.
>>738425617He's as good as Cut in the next Smash Bros anyways
>>738425773Nintendo doesn't allow character bans and people will never agree to not play a broken character if there's money on the line
>>738414626>The only honest man here is LuigiStatement from the utterly deranged
>>738425783Meta Knight by a landslide, at least the other 4 take some kind of skill Meta Knight only had to Side B, he was on another level of broken
>>738425864Nobody played Happy Chaos in EVO Japan even though he wasn't banned and had an infinite off of any blocked hit
>>738425576So 2 whole years after Steve's release where no one else really got results.
>>738424472I'd say Steve players, but the reality is that there will always be lame, non-interactive characters in Smash. They'll probably find someone to pick up.
>>738425684/ssbg/ actually briefly came back BECAUSE of the Hax death drama, but before that it was dead as fuck outside tournaments because it was full of shitposters.>>738425845Miya has a capable Wolf. He's beaten KEN and Shuton with him.
>>738402943where's Vault Dweller (body type A)?
>>738425773Steve is retarded, but not thay retarded. If you ban him people will just move onto the next hated character like Snake or Sonic.
>>738425783Probably Smash 4 Bayo. Meta Knight was just a fast character in a shitty slow game full of bad characters. Fox is bullshit in his own way, especially with controller mods, but still exploitable. Pikachu's most cancerous trait is just his recovery and ledge stalling, but he's probably on Fox's level when it comes to top tier balance. Steve is cancer, but so is Min-Min, Sonic, and Rob. Smash 4 Bayo just obliterated her game's meta even if it wasn't all that great by being a retardedly easy and overtuned character, letting plenty of nobodies win with her.
>>738425783Anything that isn't Steve or Bayonetta is wrong.Tripping killed and ruined Brawl infinitely more than Meta Knight did.
>>738425930>no one elseOnin literally won Smash Con that year.
>>738425783bayo by a landslide
>>738402943I thought Sonic was suppose to be nerfed from Smash 4. What the hell happened?
>>738426061fastest character in a game with input latency
>>738425783Steve, because despite Bayonetta and MK, Smash 4 and Brawl tournaments still had tons of sovl. Ult has been insanely boring after the DLCs finish. Now with Ult not only do you have cancer top characters, but a sovlless community where you can't banter or the smash HR will collectively ban you from everything.
>>738425783Every single top Smash 64 Pikachu player can play the whole cast at a top level. He's easily the least fraudulent character.
>>738425783Bayonetta is the only one who killed the game in the literal sense. While sometimes I think Steve is even worse to watch the game has a lot of players for being so old now and at a big tournament it felt impossible for any character except Bayonetta to get first.
>>738426061>I thought Sonic was suppose to be nerfed from Smash 4That's what people assumed at first, but it turns out Sonic is still fast and has a ton of combo and mixup potential off his specials.
>>738426061He has way better combos than he did in Smash 4 and his recovery is also way better because of being able to airdodge to ledge. Not being able to cancel spindash with shield anymore ultimately didn't matter anyway, he can still play just as lame as before if he wants to.
>>738426294desu I wonder if Sonic might have been even higher on the tier list in 4 if Sonix grew up in America and we got to see him compete back then.
>>738424103He can chop a wall of blocks no problem, has range to swat at Steve, a really good Out of Shield Up B to reversal him and otherwise solid attacks. That being said, Spargo, Cloud extraordinaire, says the match up is even because Steve can reversal you at any point and take a stock.
>>738426431Yeah, he plays Sonic like 6WX, but on crack lol, he probably would be higher in 4
>>738426431It took a while for Sonix to get really good in Ultimate. He grinded the shit out of wifi tournaments during lockdown. I wonder how different the current landscape of top players would've ended up without covid.
RIP Hax$Every single top smashfag is spineless and gay, genuinely not 1 redeemable top player/TO/community figurehead
tired of talking about smash I wanna play itID: LS86FPassword: 1122If nobody joins in 5 minutes I'm closing and doing something else, pick relatively legal stages, but dreamland and stuff like that is okay
>>738427146Sorry, I'm playing Namco Museum for Gamecube right now.
>>738425783The problem with Bayo and Steve is that, during Smash 4, Sakurai got it in his head that he needed to make the newcomers as true to their home series as possible, which meant most of the new top tiers were basically playing a different game than the rest and just generally felt like shit to play against even if they arguably weren't as dominant as, say, Brawl Meta Knight.It's one thing to have overtuned stats and moves. It's another thing to be loaded with unique mechanics and gimmicks that most other characters are literally not designed or equipped to handle.Watch literally any competitive Ult match with Steve and nearly all start the same way. The opponent just kind of helplessly rushes down Steve's wall while he mines, because that's literally the only option most characters have.
Is it true that Leffen fucks trannies?Also lmao that he got cancelled
>"Play Rivals 2." - Plup
>>738427436>>738427436I don't like leff but I agree with him there. It's all a nothingburger, those same people mad at leffen for misgendering that troon probably made fun of hax daily at the peak of his mental decline
>>7384257834 Bayo, easy. I don't think any other character has damaged a Smash game's rep like she did.>>738426003>even if it wasn't all that great by being a retardedly easy and overtuned character, letting plenty of nobodies win with her.Smash 4 pre Cloud and Bayo was probably the best it would ever get.
>>738427146>shut down automatically well I got bored of waiting, later niggers
>>738425328You have made a lot of good posts in this thread regarding archetypes such as rushdown, OHKO, camping, etc. And I've generally agreed with you. But I have to disagree with you here. Shulk IS the best character in the game. No human will ever make Shulk good. But Shulk IS theoretically good. Do you seriously believe any TAS character could beat a TAS Shulk? Played perfectly, Shulk is god tier. And I realize now after typing all of this how irrelevant it all is. But people who say Shulk is the best character aren't incorrect. No one is switching modes mid-combo consistently, is the real problem.
>>738425783I have never seen a playerbase more upset and demoralized than Smash 4 circa 2016-2018. Everyone fucking hated Bayonetta and just wanted the game to die by the end of it.
>>738402943>DQ Hero that highwho is actually practicing with the RNG meme character, bringing him to tournaments and winning with him?
>>738427436>forget to add s to the beginning of word to appease trannies>cancelled from fightansAnd the trannies wonder why all the games they like are dying.
>>738404264Imagine an sword game where you can basically nullify the main gimmick because you have a semi instant kill gun.
>>738427985Turn it into an instant kill gun and you've got Bushido Blade 2.
>>738427786Akakikusu, Shion, Beastmodepaul
>>738425783I don't know anything about 64 to comment on Pika, but comparing Fox to the other three really reminds me that having a top tier that's combo food is actually refreshing
>>738424223??? valve killed tf2 by fucking around with everything and leaving. at least soccer guy just shat out steve, did a few patches and left. valve just raped the game and then came in its eyes and fucked off.
>all these people saying the top tiers should be more striatedThis is how I would order the tier list, broadly
>>738425783Meta Knight > Steve > Bayonetta >>> Fox > Pikachu (and Kirby)
I play Kirby because I like using the camper faggots neutral Bs against them, and he's fun
>>738426003Meta Knight is fun, but he's so obscenely broken that he completely killed competitive Brawl. Well, him and Ice Climbers. The same can't be said for Bayonetta or Steve, as lame as they area.
>>738427531I'm taking a break until Slade is a usable character
>>738427786As it turns out, being able to recover from literally anywhere on the screen is pretty bullshit - along with all the other forms of bullshit he has up his sleeve.
>>73842848964 Pikachu is actually combo food as well, but his up-b has like a million years of invincibility so his disadvantage isn't horrible, but I'd say 64 has pretty all right balance for an old fighter. >>738428902Meta Knight is definitely the outright most broken character in the Smash history, and he had the ability to be really fucking lame due to his busted shit and Brawl's own mechanics, but Brawl was just a game filled to the brim with cancer like chain grabs and an even worse version of wobbling. You really can't fault MK alone for Brawl being tossed aside so easily. It was just an abysmal game due to its gameplay alone, and Brawl's low tiers are somehow even worse than Melee's.
>>738415754Oh yeah, that disappointment happened.
>>738428868I have fucked over a hundred women and while most of them were from me negging them in mario kart at barcades, there is something weird about Kirby girls. What is it about girls and spamming down B then getting horny when you step slightly to the side and fmsash them? They act angry as if its novel, and they also act angry if you tell them to stop being retarded, but then they get angry over you saying "retarded".
>>738427436You know, Big Leff has always given me the vibe of a dude on borrowed timeHe has no genuine charisma, he can’t reasonably be a top FG player forever, and he surrounds himself with insane backstabby people on top of having already been a psychotic dickhead for many years, feels like somewhere within next decade he’ll get thrown under a bus once his perceived value drops
>>738428706this is pretty accurate doe
I haven't played Smash since Brawl came out but I'm happy to see my boy DK has gotten better
>>738427146Bro, I just got off of Elite only to see this.
>>738420116I miss the busted long tail
>>738429297It's wild to me that Leffen hasn't became a lolcow yet. He's done objectively way worse things than the majority of gaming lolcows like DSP, LTG, etc. How is this dude not getting relentlessly bullied? Does being a top fighting game player really give him that much leeway to act like a whiny nigger?
>tfw Min Min's a new series mainstay>tfw Min Min's even stronger in Smash 6
>>738427436leff's original claim to fame was getting canceled
>>738423919trolling
>>738423983He did his homework and adapted. He also has the best parry game out of all players.
>>738402943I mean Banjo and Sora are lower compared to the last tier list.Clearly something's going right here.
>>738423983>a notoriously shit matchup for SteveSteve has no bad match-ups.
>>738425684based
>>738426026I wouldn't call the guy who won a bit, then started getting btfo so badly he claimed he would retire, consistent.
>>738430619Kameme hasn't been playing and people keep saying no one is implementing the tons of Sora tech posted on Twitter (that I've yet to look for).
>>738425328shulk is theoretically top tier but it'll take melee-tier longevity for people to get good enough to play him and in reality ultimate will die instantly when the next smash releases
>>738414626Try to run away as rob vs a good player and see what happens retard.
>>738432601The claim was that no other Steves were getting results. Onin was another Steve. A jobber, but he got results.>>738433136He has been playing, but he's a giant jobber now because he's a single father who barely goes to anything.
>>738404378It happened to Let's Make Big Moves in January 2026The hilarious part is a freak snowstorm happened around the venue and all the top Steve players, who booked a hotel together, were unable to make it to the event and got DQ'd. God does what Nintendon't
>>738433476>Barely scratched top 32I don't think I would call those results..
>>738433639Those are Kameme's results.
>>738433605I'm glad the smash circuit got shut down, smashfags don't deserve anything nice. Hoping big N rapes the coinbox next
>>738433605They were all staying at Syrup's house. Fun Tourney tho
>>738414626It was obvious that Yoshi and ROB were busted from wifi, why did it take pro players so long?
>>738433707I just looked up Onin's results and he didn't start placing high until about the same year as Acola.
>>738402943Krool AND Villager are D MINUS? I know Krool isnt godlike but there's no way he's actually worse than Dr fucking Mario.Also how in the world is Ice Climbers B+, I've always wanted to play them but they just feel like dogshit
>>738419228Smashfags are simply retardedThey couldn't get Metaknight banned in Brawl, and no other character in Smash history will be as meta-defining levels of bullshit of that character in any other Smash game. SO no character will ever be banned in a Smash game, because Metaknight is the benchmark. At best they will ban specific techniques/exploits/glitches of a character in order to limit what certain characters can do (and even then, pros will STILL break the rules and do the exploit if they think they can get away with it; there are documented examples of players like M2K and Zero using the Infinite Dimensional Cape exploit in Brawl in tournament matches despite it being OUTRIGHT banned)
>>738434315Can you desync with the Climbers?
>>738434315>I know Krool isnt godlike but there's no way he's actually worse than Dr fucking Mario.Doc is still part Mario which is fucking dangerous, but they are in the same tier so the difference isnt that big.>Also how in the world is Ice Climbers B+C tier character at best with moments of S tier explosive damage thanks to desyncs.
>>738425264To this day I believe Sakurai purposefully made Ridley and Banjo feel like absolute putrid boring dogshit to play in order to spite the more autistically vocal fans. Playing Banjo is pure suffering, he sucks so much ass and plays like watching paint dry
>>738404264My nephews and I play Smash, one of them started to main Steve and I had to make him drop that shit by playing Steve myself. He hates Steve now.
>>738425783Bayo and it isnt even close. No one was anywhere near her level, she carried shitters more than anyone else, and effectively killed Smash 4 thanks to that faggot Zack. Hoo Hah, Shiek, Rosalina, or Cloud never got anywhere near as bullshit as Bayo did. Chu is mainly bullshit because he has the only good recovery in the game and best camping move in the game (T.jolt). Otherwise everyone else also has TOD bullshit, but his stuff is better, but hes more than beatable and actually loses to Falcon.Fox is Fox.Even if you get rid of Meta Knight, then Icies becomes the uncontested god tier. Brawl's problems were much worse than MK anyways.As much as people bitch about Steve, he isnt end all be all, nor is he the campiest character in the game (Sonic is). He wasnt even the first uber cancer character that skewed the game heavily (Fuck you Joker). He's just the result of overtuning and no patches.
>>738434845The metas that kids playing each other make are really funny. My friend's kid said meta knight was the weakest character in the game so I bullied the shit out of him with him.My brother and I always made Cpt. Falcon the NPC and beat the shit out of him for being gay.
>>738434315Doc has some grime, and has some power behind him.Also Pills.
>>738429713Their personalities. Leffen is introverted, dsp and ltg aren't. He doesn't put himself out there enough to be easily bullied, nor are his antics funny. DSP flubbing through video games? Hilarious. LTG ragequitting while telling people to kill themselves? Hillarious. Bullying leffen? You gotta have milk from a lolcow.He's a megastoner offlline, and tends to be couchlocked and giggling most of the time. It's a complete shock if you didn't expect it, since he doesn't come across as DUDE WEED LMAO. His bark is 100% worse than his bite, and he talks shit online because he can. There's no real point in getting in his face either, he's kind of a pussy IRL.
>>738434981We banned Olimar and Snake specifically because one guy was so good with them that we thought they were top tier. Coincidentally, we were right, but that guy ended up being a pretty talented Melee player later in life so he was definitely elevating the characters. We were more scared of Snake than Meta Knight.
>>738434370>They couldn't get Metaknight banned in Brawl, and no other character in Smash history will be as meta-defining levels of bullshit of that character in any other Smash game.4 BayoEven Sakurai knew he fucked up with her.
>>738402943I thought isabelle was bottom 5, what changed?
>>738402943People still play this old garbage?Kek
>>738435003Doc also has the absolute worst recovery in the game, worse than Mac
>>738403556Just wait until the next game comes along and renders this bloated garbage obsolete.
>>738435304She's still bad, people just realized that all her unique moves are better than Villager's and she's better at ledgetrapping than zoning, which is more valuable if you're not a good zoner.
>>738434981My nephews are 16 and 17 and love playing higher tier characters, but we play all random, and they will rage if I get>jigglypuff>ganon>dr mario>zelda>dk>any projectile characterOne of my nephews also like to play on only battlefield, but I made a random map set that removes maps with super obnoxious hazards and auto scrollers
>>738404147Still playing Little Mac
>>738404264>what does minecraft guy do thats so busted anyways?
>>738405826Definitely the Pay2win shitters
Steve feels like a playable assist trophy.
>>738406547>Steve gameplay is pushing the other guy away so he can go jack off in a cornerBooooring. I wish pro level play was still like how you played with your friends but just impossibly good at it. If someone pulled this on the couch we'd make them switch immediately. Certified not fun>>738427146>>738427652Average post-hack 4chan experience
>>738407995My Linkle wife is never getting in Smash
How the FUCK is Hero A tier? All his normals are slow and he's heavily reliant on luck.
>>738435627>Spats and steel toed leather bootsImagine the smell
>>738422776fr I was watching some tournament and in some sets they don't get out of PS2, I thought it was like dreamland in 64 for a moment
>>738404540Keep in mind that prior to Ultimate, competitive Smash in Japan was fairly niche. The west had a big Smash 4 scene that carried over to Ultimate immediately while the Japanese scene was only really starting to grow when the game came out.
>>738411527Smash needs more competent villains
>>738435648Fish with DownB until you get stat boosters and he's pretty busted turns out
>>738422886he will b back and he will be shit.See Kirby in melee, fox in brawl, metaknight in early 4 and bayo in ultimate. In ultimate at least they nerfed bayo without making shit utter shit unlike the others so they are learning, but he won't be king anymore
>>738435889Sheik in Ultimate as well
>>738435889I'd rather Steve be put in the eternally shit tier with Meta and Kirby
>>738426475I don't think Steve has good reversals (I assume this means specials) against Cloud actually. All he has is minecart and Cloud can easily swat that away. What really kills Cloud getting vortexed into a back-air or caught by a random anvil.
>>738435889Kirby wasnt king in 64 though, Pikachu was and hes been good in everygame.Though it did take time before he was realized in Melee.
>>738414958Banjo is S tier in the looks department, while Steve is an F tier. I don’t play Trash Ultimate. I only judge by looks.
>>738436379In the Japanese version's early meta they thought Ness was the best character so it did still happen.
>>738434370>meta knight and bayo don't get banned in 4>wobbling banned in melee (icies have never won a supermajor btw)
>>738402943I see my goat mr game and watch is right where he ought to be
>>738436787Wobbling deserved to be banned
>>738436808don't get grabbed
>>738415012Tastes just like her Ramen!
>>738429413>He missed Windy Kong when the scene was still flirting with Customs>He missed the invention of the Ding DongDidn't DK also get a Melee renaissance too?
Mac bros, we were always meant to suffer...
>>738406547Toon is the most degenerate of all the Steve players
>>738435517looks busted, but i still dont understand why nothing is happening
>>738437325nvm im dumb, read through wall of text and i understands now
>>738402943Isn't it kind of ironic that Sonic is almost the number one strongest character in a Nintendo game?He really does what Nintendont
>>738435569Terry, BK, and Hero can stay.Terry is straight up the best DLC character smash ever added. Fun character that isnt horseshit GO! is nowhere near as bad as other retarded comeback mechanics, even baseline ones., the absolute best DLC stage with a hilarious gimmick thats actually fun, and several albums worth of music.
>>738428706Has a heavy ever been good?
>>738438576Snake (is a superheavy in Brawl), ROB, Kazuya
>>738438576Not a true heavy, no. Snake is a zoner who is coincidentally heavy; ROB is not a heavy despite his weight; and Kazuya is, well, Kazuya. There's more to being a heavy than weight.I think 4 Bowser and maybe 4 / Ultimate Donkey Kong are the closest that a true heavy has come to being good. 4 Bowser was basically carried by his pivot grab and one true combo, and DK was / is in a similar position.
>>738438802>heavy = fat fuck
>>738438802Snake in Brawl literally weighs more than Dedede
>>738439036>There's more to be a heavy than weight
>>738404147Based.
>>738439294Whom are you quoting?>more to beGood morning, sir!
>>738410840Is that murder hornet? Do what must be done. Do not hesitate- show no mercy.
>>738414208>Olimar>Pikachu>Roy>honest play
>best players in the world>all japs and two mexicans that are enough consistent to reach top 8 most of the timesWhat happened
>>738402943The last time yoshi did anything noteworthy was pre-steve era. The only guy doing winning with peach got banned for life from the scene like 6 years ago. The people who vote on these lists are retarded twitch viewers. If your character doesn't have long range tools that let you practice one-player neutral like snake and minmin you are fucked in this meta
>>738439727>The only guy doing winning with peach got banned for life from the scene like 6 years agoThere's a new guy "doing winning with peach", although the previous guy's ban just expired. Realistically he should stay banned, he's a 50 IQ golem.
>>738425783>>738425910>>738426003>>738426018>>738426027So basically>64 Pikachuhonest>Melee Foxhonest>Brawl Meta Knightinsanely fucking RETARDED but the entire game was just a bunch of dogshit characters + tripping fucking them even harder>4 BayoLegitimate the most dishonest as it carried the biggest shitters, basically NO skills>Ult SteveThe second most dishonest nigger at the same level as Bayo, carrying shitters as well with NO skillsCan we ALL agree?>b-but muh sonic campDidn't askAlso why do all shitty tournaments get ERECT while mentioning "DUDE X IS RANK 1 IN THE WORLD, NOW Y JAP IS RANK 1 IN THE WORLD, NOW Z JAP IS RANK 1 IN THE WORLD WHILE PLAYING NIGGER SHIT LIKE MIN-MIN"?
>>738438802Snake, Kazuya and ROB are heavy, retard
>>738439610The good burgers were all a clique from 20 years ago who got old and retired around the same time
if sora wasn't in this game, i would have stopped when they released joker. i HATE this game but my job is to kill scrubs online and make them rage quit which gives me dopamine hits.
>>738439727The people who vote on these are top players, retard. Yoshi is high up because he does well in Japan.
"Heavy" is a Smash-specific term for a character archetype. Heavyweight is specifically in reference to the character's weight. It would be more accurate to call heavies "bruisers", but heavies have been so shit for so long that the term heavy has become synonymous with "slow, fat fuck who's balanced around casual FFAs".If you're going to argue that being a heavy is based on weight, here are characters that are more "heavy" than Snake or ROB (and their actual archetypes):>Piranha PlantSetup character>SamusZoner>Bowser Jr.Setup character>TerryBrawler>WarioSetplay character>IkeHeavy disjoint>RidleyHeavy disjoint>Simon / RichterZonerIf you can't see the design difference between a character like Donkey Kong and a character like Snake, your opinion is irrelevant.
>>738410914>He says as he then proceed to watch melee again >>738402943If Steve is so great then why is he lacking in grand final wind?
>>738440294Also, yes, Ike and Ridley having good disjoints is legitimately significant enough that they probably shouldn't be considered pure heavies. Characters aren't definitely one archetype. Even though Dedede is a true heavy, he's still like 50% heavy, 25% setup character, and 25% disjoint character. Ridley is like 70:30 disjoint:heavy, and Ike is closer to 50:50.
>main G&W>drown in pussyis it that simple?
>>738438576Min Min's fat ass is pretty good.
>>738440550The Japanese top player all look like chigyu except for Zackray, who randomly became a Chad twink. Miya is pretty funny, though.
>>738427786When people discovered his RNG could be manipulated he went from clown character to high skill character
>>738402943Maybe if people didn't pick PS2 ALL THE FUCKING TIME Steve wouldn't dominate them so much
>>738440294THEN DON'T FUCKING CALL THEM HEAVIESSMASH IS A GAME WHERE CHARACTERS HAVE WEIGHTS OF COURSE A NORMAL FUCKING PERSON WILL NATURALLY ASSUME HEAVY WILL REFER TO THAT AND NOT SOME SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE ARCHETYPEBUT THEN AGAIN>>>>>ENDING LAG
>>738440294>Another commonly used weight class is the "super heavyweights", which describes the heaviest characters in each game, who also typically have the largest sizes and hurtboxes. These characters commonly include Donkey Kong, Bowser, King Dedede, Charizard, King K. Rool, Incineroar, Snake (Brawl only), and Ganondorf (Ultimate only). >This classification is commonly used to distinguish the more extreme half of the heavyweight archetype from characters such as Wario and Ike who have above average weight, but often have more playstyle variety, mobility and smaller hurtbox sizes compared to the heaviest characters.Wario and Ike are considered heavyweights. You are thinking of the super heavyweights, and even those guys are purely weight based(Brawl Snake is a super heavyweight no matter how he plays)
>>738441393I'm just the messenger
>>738441595>(Brawl Snake is a super heavyweight no matter how he plays)maybe, but he's no longer a heavy
>>738438576Yoshi is pretty heavy
>>738402943>female CorrinThe image's creator's pronouns are xey/xem.
>>738445902male corrin is fucking ugly
>>738445983While female Corrin sounds and acts like a bitch, in addition to not being the default costume. I'd take male in a heartbeat.
>Hated her on release>Turns out to be my favorite character to playi usually hate these types of slow characters, but her moveset a lot of fun with each attack just being really satisfying to land
>>738445902Female Corrin is the canon one, get over it
>>738402943>ridley and k rol the most waited chars are in low tiersBullshit!
>>738416956Just put a big magnet on all the characters that will continually and constantly pull them together when not in hit lag. Done.
>>738416956>All smash games suffer from stalling because of the fundamental design flaw of platform fighters that there isnt a built in anti-stall tech.>No platform fighter has tackled the issue yet but the moment someone finds a good solution for it everyone will copy itMaking players fight over objectives on the stages that grant major advantages to those who achieve them, or perhaps adding hazards that threaten players on the outer parts of the stage, would be easy solutions. But no, compchuds would riot because it's more than a flat stage or a flat big platform with three smaller platforms.
>>738433605>the top Steve players, who booked a hotel together...were they... you know?
