Was the leveling system really that bad?
it wasn't, you just got filtered
yes, it's needlessly merciless and punishing for no reasonand unlike in morrowind you're constantly fighting scaled enemies instead of preset ones so you're actively getting weaker
Yea, you pretty much have to minmax levelups to not get your face kicked in by level scaled enemies
>>738474067It's annoying, but you can deal with it. Little kids managed to complete the main quest without minmaxing and metagaming.
>>738474067>Was the leveling system really that bad?it was worse, actually
>>738474662because they can lower the difficulty slider down to the point where the game becomes impossible to lose
>>738474662>Little kids managed to complete the main quest without minmaxing and metagaming.meta was to not level up at all, actually.
Yes. Why do you think the difficulty slider was introduced?
>>738474067its a better choice to not level than it is to level so yes
>>738474067I dislike level scaling because I cease feeling a sense of progression. I like going back to early game areas and one-shotting enemies
>>738474067>people actually put points into athletics and acrobatics
>>738474067I don't think it would have been a terrible thing in and of itself, but that + procedural loot gen and perfectly spaced POIs make the game feel as corporate as possible.
>>738474067Will someone say how the leveling works in this game or not?
>>738475062this thread isn't for you yet
>>738475062>how the leveling worksit doesnt
>>738475062it works well if you aren't a levellet and know what you are doingeven if you don't know what you're doing you have to be borderline mentally handicapped to have difficulties with the gameplay
>>738475483what benefit do you get out of leveling up?
>>738475062you have to methodically get 30 skill ups, 10 per attribute you want to increase, to max out your attribute gains and level up efficiently, that is getting +5 attribute points to 3 attributesthe skills that you pick as your main ones only require a total of 10 points to level you upso if you play with what you've actually specialised yourself as you'll never get a single +5 per level, let alone 3 of themso you have to grind your off skills every single level to get +5 to all three of your attribute increases
>>738475572cool flavourtext + more stamina (for jumping all over the place) + more mana for casting cool spells
>>738475572Quest rewards are dependent on level and you have to be at specific levels to do daedric quests
I don't get the right way to play Remastered but don't really feel gimped either. The dodge barely seems to work and their difficulty tuning seems like internshit quality
>>738475062TL;DR The higher your level is, the more powerful enemies become.You could level up by increasing your non-combat stats, it doesn't matter. Leveled up by fixing your armor or jumping too many times? Get fucked, bandits are now permanently spawning with endgame gear. Enjoy.
I remember playing this with a buddy and talking about it. I never leveled and he kept leveling up and he was constantly proclaiming how it was possible for me to beat everyone and everything despite me not even being high levels. I remember telling him something along the line of "skill issue" but in 2006 speak.I wonder if he ever found out about the level scaling. He brought it up almost every time we played games at each others house.
>>738475062attributes = stuff like strength, speed, luck, intelligenceskills = sneak, bows, magic schools, alchemyyou get attribute gains depending on the skill you use that is tied to an attribute when you level up this makes it so if you want to minmax in anyway you have to be super careful and not get xp in any other skills because that could fuck up your attribute gainbut what people also don't like about the leveling in the game is the ambient difficulty. after like level 20 bandits start spawning with glass armor and random hostile npcs are replaced with shit like minotaurs and land dreugh
>>738474067>WasStill is.You can recognize a shit game by its levelling system.Truly good games don't even need one.
>>738476589skyrim's levelling system is goodthe problem is that those levels go into boring as fuck perks that take completing a fucking dlc to respec
>>738474067The levelling system wouldn't be a problem if not for the outrageous level scalling
All of what is said is true. But fundamentally having to spam abilities to level them up is awful game design, I don’t care if it is immersive or realistic. The actual gameplay it encourage is not fun.
>>738475062The question isn't really how it work, but why is it hated so much.And >>738476202 tell it to you>after like level 20 bandits start spawning with glass armor and random hostile npcs are replaced with shit like minotaurs and land dreughSkyrim barely do better.A long as you are low level, shit enemy spawn no where you go.Then you level up, place you've already passed by keep the shitty loot and sometime shitty enemyBut anything new that spawn will have loot tailored to your level, even if it means giving bandit ebony weapons.So you essentially break your own game unless you limit yourself.
level scaling defeats the purpose of having levels
>>738477089you just had to be there and be 11 years old type of gameevery bethesda game is
>>738475062There are two issues:>the leveling curve is brutal, enemies actively become stronger relative to the player when he levels up>you level up from leveling 10 major skills, but your attribute increase on level up depends on your total level ups (you need at least 30 level ups across major and off-skills to be optimal), so you are actively punished for taking major skills that you use too oftenIt creates a dumb scenario where your sneak thief inexplicably needs to take a bunch of skills as majors he never uses because then he can fine tune his level up, but it doesn't matter anyway because there is an inexplicable bandit meatwall with the best armor in the game that instagibs the thief because he focused on thief things instead of dealing with bulky enemies.
Yes, it's godawful. People already covered the worst aspects of character leveling, but it's not just that. The world itself is a homogeneous leveled soup. Every dungeon is the same and all chests / enemies are procedually generated based on your level. Unlike Morrowind which had fixed loot all over the place, and limited banding. There's barely anything worth exploring in the world, you get the same experience wherever you go.It's basically the same issues Starfield had but in the 00s. You need major overhauls that manually populate the world to make it worth playing.
>>738474067No, the scaling is what was bad
>>738476717Skyrim level is almost the same as Oblivion with only a few tweak over what they fucked up the most visually. Namely needing to grind by using said ability.You shouldn't even need to respect.I gave up on Besthesda a long time ago, I got Skyrim for a few buck and still feel cheated.
>>738478012thisMorrowind had the exact same shit leveling and it is playable (although still hindered by it)
>>738479005in morrowind it doesnt matter cause it just determines how fast you become OP
a lot of people dont understand that fatigue affects damage. when people complain about the level scaling i think its often because they are attacking with low fatigue and dont understand that is the main issue. of course, the level scaling has issues, but most players probably dont even understand the mechanics. you see so many videos and clips of people attacking enemies with low fatigue and wondering why they're not doing much damage. if you're not constantly keeping up your fatigue with potions or spells, you are playing wrong and getting punished for it.
>>738474662Well, yes. Many people will beat the game never going over level 10 or something. Those are who the scaling was optimized for. They never expected you to keep playing until you hit the part where you start seeing Ogres and Daedric wearing bandits everywhere.
>>738474413Just turn the difficulty down retard
>>738479492That's the whole point of the Morrowind gaslighting, whites used Morrowind to shit on minorities when it's the same shit as Morrowind and then move the goal points to levitating or something
>>738474067Yes, an RPG system that rewards choosing skills you won't use is an abject failure.
>>738479612>just stop playing the game
>>738479612>it's fine that every cave is full of bandits decked out in glass and daedric armor because, if you turn the difficulty down, you can one shot them (and then ship out pallets full of their armor to sell I guess)>this is fun and good game design
I have never understood why people complain about the scaling so much. It only seems to be a problem at higher levels like past 20. But if you play naturally it will take you hours and hours to reach that point. Leveling in this game is slow. You should be done with most of the content before the scaling is a big problem
>mystic dawn puzzle >lizard woman tells you the first word of each paragraph could be a clue>it's not; you're supposed to use the first LETTER of each paragraph>tells you to go to the "green emperor way">go there>puzzle tells you to go where "the tower touches the midday">no visible shadows, so just explore>puzzle ends with the prince's tomb, which is in the complete opposite direction of Green Emperor's Waywhat the fuck
>>738479959Morrowind is even worse after the ashlanders tribes questline
>>738479714>>738479752>heh I'm too much of a bitch to deal with challenging fights by playing with every system the game offers, but I'm also too much of a retard to make it easierOkay, retards
the scaling is actually fucked from the start. do the kvatch quest at level 1 and you'll notice the imps have shitloads of health, much harder to kill than the dremoras
>>738479882>I have never understood why people complain about the scaling so much.If you need to scale everything to the players level, why have levels at all?
>>738480260>you should balance the game because bethesda wasn't competent enough to do it
>>738474067I remember when i was a kid and i figured it out. I just walked around casting nonstop the cheapest spells from their respective schools until i became an ultimate gigawizard. I know swordfags have it way harder, sucks to be you i guess
>>738477493>>the leveling curve is brutal, enemies actively become stronger relative to the player when he levels upThis... honestly kinda fits looking back. Were it not for needing to metagame the fuck out of the level attribute system it'd fit thematically and be pretty cool. You're off fucking around doing a bunch of sidequests while the gates remain open and the world slowly gets worse.
>>738474067No idea. I did the wrong spec thing by accident the one and only time I beat oblivion
>>738474067The leveling system combined with enemy level scaling made the game almost unplayable in the intended way, so if you want to have fun you have to either minmax or cheese the game
>>738479882The scaling worsens the gameplay in many little aspects, like how it doesn't matter that you're wearing cool daedric armor because even bandits have those. Or that fighting the same daedra enemies take X sword swings to kill each time despite how much you're leveling up, it fails to bring a sense you're becoming any stronger. oblivion in general lacks many new resources for the player to utilize as you level up so it just makes the gameplay more repetitive.
>>738482045It's hilarious how you can do every non-level-locked sidequest in the game but never sleep once, and Mehrunes Dagon will keep sending his feeblest most retarded minions to attack.
>>738474067No. It was pretty annoying, but zoomers who've never played the game inflated it's atrociousness after hearing about it via YouTube
>>738474067The levelling system is actually pretty good. The number one reason why most people think its shit is because they feel like they get weaker as they start levelling above 20 or so, and that's because physical damage has a soft cap that can't be overcome without stacking buffs on yourself or debuffs on enemies.But if you don't really know that or you refuse to multiclass into magic because it goes against your RP as a warrior, then the increasingly bloated HP of enemies eventually makes your warrior RP start to feel like its getting rapidly weaker. Enemies get more health, but your maximum physical damage becomes static. To keep up with the power curve in the very late game, you have to do custom spells and enchanting, and you have to know what custom spells and enchants to get. The levelling system is fine, but the overall level scaling and the fact you get railroaded into doing magic at some point is what's shit.
>>738477493Min maxing of attributes is probably the smallest portion of your overall power in Oblivion. If you do efficient levelling, you're essentially just front loading your attributes so you can dump into Luck and Personality by the mid-late game, which are the two most useless attributes and contribute virtually nothing to your overall power. The difference between getting +2 to attributes and +5 is so minor by the time you're level 15 or so that it makes efficient levelling so pointless.
>>738483215Puts into perspective Bethesda never made a TES game where pure warrior has been an optimal choice
>>738483860they made a helluva lot of games where stealth archer/sniper is the optimal choice instead
>>738474067It wasn't that bad liked how you had to sleep to level.
>>738483860maybe not, but in their games pure warrior is usually a better choice than pure mage or pure stealth. in morrowind especially. pure mage is bad because destruction sucks, and pure stealth is bad because sneak sucks. by contrast pure warrior is very good, very capable in combat, and the only thing you really need is to supplement it with buying some potions and scrolls that help you navigate.pure warrior is also not bad in skyrim. most survivability. pure mage once again sucks, and everyone loves stealth archer, but once you have to enter combat and hiding isnt an option, warrior is better.
>>738475062Enemy level scales with your. Except your damage, armor and health values have a cap. Enemies don't. At some point you will just get one shot no matter what.
>>738484413>liked how you had to sleep to level.Not sleeping makes for a hilarious cheese build.>Oh no, the world is being attacked by weak imps!>Save us, inexplicably skilled insomniac!I only had trouble with the Bruma battle because everybody on your side is just as weak and retarded as the enemies.
>>738484496There's problems with pure warrior in skyrim, like the cinematic finishers trigger the split-second a player or character starts a swing, not on impact, so against like a bandit chief or draugr uberlord with a stronk enchanted 2-hander you can just killed immediately with no counterplay, and it completely bypasses timed blocks because they trigger the instant the entity wants to swing, not on impact, before any visual indicators. Also the general bethesda game feel of "pause and drink 5 health potions every 10 seconds in combat" really sucks, more of a console problem iirc since you can hotkey consumables to numbers on PC or maybe that was a mod. Block only mitigating like ~40% of damage instead of transferring it to stamina was also kind of lame imo. People do no-hit runs on ARPGs all the time, like dark souls, nioh, bamham, etc because those are immensely satisfying but there's no way to do that in Skyrim except for playing stealth archer, it's just the best damage mitigation strategy that's easily accessible.
>>738479648>>738479492The problem is that most people will go around fighting stuff with unenchanted swordsIn Morrowind even a shit tier character with like 25 blunt 30 strength can grab a 2-handed hammer, power attack enemies and kill them in 2-3 hits (Yes even considering the miss chance)In Oblivion the damage formula is so fucked the same enemy now takes dozens of hits
>>738482227Play a Mage and blow up enemies with destruction spells that do hundreds of damage
>>738483860Morrowind kinda is actually, considering non-enchant mages have to deal with casting chance and magicka not regenerating on its own, alongside reflect spam amd casting times
>>738484856Your allies don't have level scaling for the Bruma defence quest meaning it actually gets harder if you level up a bunch before doing it to the point of becoming nigh-impossible without utilizing cheese like chameleon suits or magic weakness stacking
>>738485386your atronach birthsign? your hunger summons that you can aggro that will cast non damaging spells at you that you can absorb?morrowind mage rapes the game from the get go if you know what spells to make
>>738484856>two malnourished scamps outside city wallsBY THE NINE! HERO OF MYCROTCH SAVE USSSS
>>738474067yeah
>>738474067no. don't treat the difficulty slider as a permeant difficulty like a retard and adjust it each level up as needed. game can be broken with enchantments anyway so who cares how shit your attributes are.
>>738485590Well I don't know how that stupid nigger Martin kept dying and I had to reload like 5 times
>>738486068>Martin kept dyingno
>>738486361>I was at tower crafting poo amulets when jaufre ring>"martin spetum is kill">"no"
>>738474067Not unless you try to minmax like an autist retard
>>738479882Because it's a stupid system that can just as easily fuck you over as it can be brokenI remmeber I did a conjuration mage except I made non of the relevant skills as my major and minor skills, meaning I was able to summon stronger and stronger monsters but everything remained weak as shit everywhere
>>738475738Smaller bonuses have a bigger impact when you're early level. It's the reason for the level 1 meta.
>>738478493Skyrim at least allowed you to use smithing and enchantments to increase your damage output to match the increasing health of enemies. In oblivion by the time you were level 20, your physical damage capped out and Even enchantments didn't help much.
>>738474067yes
>>738485386morrowind warriors are just mages with their spells as enchants
>>738476717Skyrim levelling system is utter dogshit. You get to choose between dungeons being full of fodder who dies if you yell at them and reasonable bosses, or else reasonable enemies and bosses who can cutscene kill you from max HP.Oh and lets not forget frost mages or "If you are playing melee you have already lost" mages.And of course the choice between HP (Always needed), Stamina (Always nice because it's a dogshit game and sprinting out of combat comes at cost), or Magicka (Wasted level that can be completely negated through enchanting when needed)/>>738488139>Skyrim at least allowed you to use smithing and enchantments to increase your damage output to match the increasing health of enemies.Yeah, it's so dogshit that the amount of damage you can get from enchanting eclipses the amount of damage you can get from literally everything else.Perks are nearly all dogshit "+% damage nonsense" that doesn't do anything other than make number go up and from a gameplay standpoint just gates alternate gear/paths rather than makes the path chosen more involved, and magic classes being subject to a few hard chokepoints rather than gradual progression. I think maybe 2 handed had a reasonable one like ignore % armor.Skyrimlovers really do swallow shit and thank Todd for the meal holy shit what a dogshit game.
Most people didn't play enough to really even notice it. Or if they did they just lowered the difficultyThat said, it is a really big flaw thats a little ridiculous that it got through
>>738474067Leveling system? No. It's the same as MorrowindsThe infinite scaling and leveled quest rewards? Yes. It is that bad.
>>738489968this. most people who played the game never even noticed any of this.
>>738474067Everytime a good game is made, 10 or 15 years later there is some faggot on this board who tries to tell you it's dogshit or it has some unplayable flaw. If I could, and I truly mean this, I would shoot every last fucking one of you.
>>738494915>oblivion player thinking he has the qualifications to know what a good game is
>>738494967I have the qualifications to know you're a fucking faggot and even if a game fit every nitpicky list of criterias you would still be unsatisfied because none of you actually like games, like why are you even here why haven't you strung yourself up from a tree yet?
>>738475062The more you level, the more enemies become damage sponges and new types permanently replace the weaker ones, actually cucking variety. Same with gear.Still the best comedy game of all time.
>>738495032doubt it fool
>>738483682It seems that the complaint comes from the psychological effect of merely knowing how the system works and the perceived gap in power if you don't engage with skills you'd rather not to keep those +5 coming rather than it being a massive balance issue.Not that the balance is great, however...
