>>738575727
It’s a crutch for sloppy enemy design.
Positioning.

>>738575727
there's nothing wrong with a short burst of movement
the problem with it is that devs want to have it make you invincible for no good reason

>>738575727
It's okay. You want some sort of reaction from the player when an enemy is attacking, and it works to have an invincible dodge so they press that button when an attack is coming. Basically the same thing but a bit better is ducking. It still works as the player seeing an attack coming and pressing a button to dodge, but there can be attacks that hit low enough you can't duck under them.

>>738575810
>Positioning
Nope, it will always feel good to dodge an enemy's attacks

>>738575921
This. When I first played DS1 I thought it was glitched when I "dodged" through an attack. Such stupid mechanic and encourages spam rolling instead of proper positioning

I have no problem with dodging.

I do have a problem with i-frame crap.

Replayed Alan Wake recently and it has a dodge mechanic but no i-frames and it is so much much satisfying to use than soulslop rolls.

>>738575727
MonHun handled it well.
Works the same way as Dark Souls but it's not a get out of jail card since the hotboxes aren't thin lines that pass over you in 0.1s

>>738575727
Bullet time.

it's good when the hitbox is always active
it's bad when there are i-frames
the alternative is active blocking

>>738575727
Making attacks dodgeble with just normal movement

>>738576096
A alternative would be a side-/backstep on a single button push and on double you'd roll for a short distance.

>>738576181
my impression is that those are just different flavors of dodging

>>738576181
Souls games actually have backstepping. And if you attack afterwards it's followed up with an immediate lunge attack. My experience was it was very effective in pvp because everyone just expects everyone to roll all the time because that's what you would do in pve.

>>738575986
I absolutely HATE faggots who act like it was always obvious how iframes worked in Dark Souls. They're all disingenuous fucks who looked shit up online and act like they didn't.

Lift shield for blocking but in return you take slight damage on hits + it increases your carry load and/or uses up one hand that could otherwise be used for another offensive weapon.
Dodge roll to avoid damage entirely but consumes stamina.
Parry for high skill players with high risk/reward ratio, leaves enemy open for riposte attack for massive damage.

Yes, Dark Souls perfected this simple but brilliant formula, and I don't mind seeing it in more games. For example, Resident Evil should just copy this system wholesale. It's good that they added parries, but they also need to add rolls and ripostes.

>>738576012
To get i-frames anywhere near the same ballpark as Souls generosity you have (maybe "had", can't speak for modern MH) to invest heavily into evade window. There's the dive of course which is naturally gigantic i-frames but the (frankly genius) limitation that you have to sheathe your weapon and start running away from the monster to be able to use it, followed by a recovery period in which you're vulnerable prevents it from being a brainless "I do not take damage now" button.

>>738575986
That's what I never understood about Fromsoft games. It has this rather grounded movement and controls. You can't do crazy double jumps or whatever but all of a sudden you are invincible when you roll.

>>738576339
good post
https://youtu.be/cFDvo9g5qK4

games arent all the same
different games should have different defensive mechanics.
People will have different preferences and thats fine

The problem is that somehow people making action games in current day dont get this. They dont come up with their own mechanics and balances that truly fit how their own game is turning out. They literally just copy the few more successful games and trends, most commonly whatever Fromsoft is doing. This results in games that are kind of a worse version of something else.
>braindead one-button defense in games where it feels even blander and more one dimensional than souls will ever be
>shitty estus clones in a game that should have something other than estus
>posture bar in a game that doesnt need it
And so on

An example of a game that does it way better is Hollow Knight and Silksong. Their combat was way better received for a reason, both during the easy early game and actually very challenging lategame.
>game built around dodging hitboxes with a fluid moveset and pogo, at most you get a very CD limited iframe dash at the last parts of HK1
>its own healing mechanic that is the polar opposite of estus, and the health balance that goes with that, which is way better for exploration and bosses (and pairs with charms)
>deliberate combat in a completely different package
This contrasted so well with the legions of subpar souls or sekiro clones that plague 2d, most of which with iframe or parry spam defense, a bad estus mechanic that kneecaps exploration and isnt fun or exciting for bosses, and its own gamefeel. Its not only its own unique game, its also way better than the competition, because they were actually making what fits it best.

Now apply this logic to all sorts of other things in games. HUDs, game progression, soundtrack style, multiplayer/teamwork features, enemy movesets, builds, level ups, whatever the fuck you think of. In almost all cases it applies in very much the same logic. 1/2

>>738576557
2/2
This is precisely the difference between the high-effort well made games that are kind of just alright and get forgotten after some years(most of them), and the ones that reach immense success that keeps being talked about for way over a decade and influences 848112 other games. Actually come up with your own game mechanics. Its fine to copy but if you are doing it right, you should often end hp figuring out ways to make it different and cooler. Not just for the sake of being different, but because it fits YOUR game better. If you just copy, youre trying to remake an existing game(s) and will probably just make a worse version of something else.

Not related but anyone notice how WuWa bosses are starting to do that stupid Elden Ring delayed attack shit? I took a break since Iuno and just realized that the Astronaut boss feels just like some ER sideboss.

>>738575727
I like it, a dodges with iframes attached, I think, get too much flak here. You can tune them for whatever style of action combat you want, slow paced or fast paced, with windows being tighter for slow paced games and more lax and more easily spammable for fast paced ones.
That said, some games do exhibit an overreliance on them, like Dark Souls 3 and especially Elden Ring, I like those games but they pushed the envelope a little too far, some bosses are fucking frantic, not very satisfying to fight imo. They probably could've stood being a little slower and the iframe windows could've been a bit tighter, as well as toning down on the delayed attacks.
I think Bloodborne handled fast-paced combat well, you can dodge as much as you want, but the dodge windows are tighter, enemies hit very hard, but you have the rally mechanic to counterbalance the damage you take, and you're probably going to take a lot of damage, with how aggressive enemies and bosses are in that game

>>738576732
Elden Ring unironically does the opposite, in a way. Bosses often have frame traps or chain hits that will hit you if you dodge in the wrong direction. Instead, shields, guard counters, tanking, poise, trading, defensive ashes etc are much stronger. So if you invest in your defense you are in for a good time. If youre planning to spam rolls you better be damn good at it

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>>738576732
>a dodges
Nevermind me, I'm retarded I guess

>>738576831
Yeah, I suppose you're right, that was just my experience with the game since I gave zero thought to defenses and just learned boss attack patterns and opening until I could kill them while only getting hit a handful of times

>>738575967
you didn't dodge, you were invincible for 2 seconds, the monster model entierely clipped inside your skull.

>>738576930
If you ever try it again, the cheapest/most surefire option is a nice shield and an ultra greatsword, or a great spear, or something of the sort. Specially paired with jump attacks. You might find yourself trading hits but you will bully stance so hard that you will have an edge provided you have good vig, armor and maybe poise
Alternatively play Nightreign if you havent. You have fancy character skills to help you out, while the nightlords have a different (and way cooler) style of attacks than typical elden ring shit.

>>738576482
Don't think about it too hard, it's not "lore" that makes you invincible during a roll, just a cheap way to ensure it works against the godawful enemy attack tracking and spastic hitboxes. Fromdrones somehow think it's s-tier gameplay tho

>>738576339
Re4make really isn't too far from that except the roll, but you do have an interesting option in the form of crouching which low profiles grabs and some attacks
Knife blocking and parrying is similar but obviously a bit easier, you do get a free kick after a perfect parry which is basically your riposte, or just switch to your highest damage gun and blast away
And ofc in requiem you have an actual riposte anyway in the form of your axe, a perfect parry always lets you instakill with it. Crouching to avoid attacks was removed though and parries literally just work on everything including grabs, which dumbs down things a little

>>738575921
DS2 solved this issue too by introducing adaptability: if you really want iframes you have to invest souls in a specific parameter. too bad it was dropped, DS2 is the real unsung hero

>>738576979
you're not a woman, you have a penis though it's 2 inches, the model of yourself as a woman entirely clipped inside your skull.

Good dodge = small hit of dopamine, simple as

>>738578018
good dodge = dogshit game, plus you're gay

>>738575986
Yeah, I remember struggling in some indie vidya, using dodge only for getting away from harm, as logic and experience would suggest. In older games you were actually the most vulnerable mid-dodge when you couldn't control your movement or attack, so miscalculating a dodge would be fatal.
Couldn't believe that you were supposed to dodge though normal attacks, ranged attacks, charge attacks, AoE attacks, poison gas, floor spikes, lasers, lava, just about anything that should hurt on contact but didn't.

>>738575727
>what is the best alternative to it?
i'd like a system that mixes souls, sekiro and for honor
i want weapons clashing and sparks, but not just katana vs katana

>>738578018
>still using dodge when he was invincible and was hit the whole time.

>>738576979 is right
i liked dodges in assassin's creed games
rolling through attacks has been over done

>>738575727
No simply because when you step back and look at it from a distance, dodge rolling in succession looks ridiculous.
Its funny Bloodborne addressed this before Elden Ring tossed the idea.

How about infinite dodge rolls with some animation delay except you glow red everytime you dodge after a single dodge to indicate you're vulnerable. A bar refills to indicate when you can do invulnerable dodges.

>>738576979
then it's working as intended, games never balance on models, only hitboxes

>>738575727
No dodges are shit. They're a one-button move designed to gaslight the player into thinking that they did something satisfying and skillful, just like QTEs and parryslop. The windows for reaction are so liberally plastered with iframes that execution barely matters.
Modern console controllers just aren't well designed enough to really play 3D games more complex than kid's 3D platformers, and the only reason they haven't been superseded is because of the constant post-2000s investment push into casual-friendly consoles that has long sinced morphed into people unironically thinking that the ewaste controller form-factor is good.

The alternative is actually designing games around better controllers and ignoring all the streamlined conventions set by 2 decades of shit games

>>738575986
I know iframes exist since some MMOs since 2006 already have the term iframes, and some fighting games have iframes too

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>>738575727
Dodge roll is a zoomer QTE for a low skill crutch. You press a button in the right time, anywhere you want no matter what, and it acts as a get out of jail free card.

Real dodging should be like Quake and UT. It involves positioning, movement, map knowledge and the mechanical skill to press all the inputs. You can't just dodge anywhere and you have to deliberately get to positions where you can dodge and wall jump. You get no animation advantage. You get no invincibility advantage. It's pure fucking skill.

Why did ""gamers"" accept this simplification and turned it into a retarded braindead QTE for everything that works everywhere and only requires 1 input? It's completely reactionary. Even a cockroach attached to a single button can be taught to press dodge roll in the right moment.

>>738575727
Dodge rolling is a great mechanic when it's optional. When it isn't, usually it has i-frames, and you NEED to use it to dodge every attack, which is retarded. Ideally, you should be able to dodge an enemy's attacks with good positioning, but if you fuck up you can dodge roll to save yourself. But it shouldn't be a perfect reliable way to do it. On the flipside, this allows you to play more aggressively by dodging better, but of course it has to have no i-frames for it to be interesting. Any game where you can just dodge roll in an enemy's face to evade all damage is fucking retarded

>>738581276
>more complex than kid's 3D platformers
These are genuinely the most complex 3D games and actually make full use of 3D space in ways other games don't

>>738576339
But wouldn't this just allow players who are good enough at the parry to compromise other aspects, meaning the game fails to provide a challenge for anyone willing to get good enough at it?

>>738581653
>Player usually constrained to a 2D plane with limited jumping
>Camera barely controlled by automated Z-targeting
>A 6DoF environment, controlled by 4DoF sticks that preferably restrain the player to 3DoF handholding
These are just isometric games with more LARPing.

Why do people dishonestly pretend like dark souls invented iframes and that this makes iframes bad

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Dodge roll makes no sense, it implies people can just suddenly accelerate their speed greatly but only for a moment which makes 0 sense. Rolling around shouldn't be faster than fucking running, it's a slop mechanic and I won't hear otherwise.

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>>738578009
this.

>>738575727
It worked in Demon's Souls while even though it had some i-frames it meant to be a repositioning tool first and foremost (to the point that if you tried to roll into attacks like in alter games the lingering hitboxes could easily catch you still)
Too bad DaS turned it into a plain reaction check more and more in the later titles

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>>738575727
Dodges are a good mechanic which have been badly abused by an industry which wants to use them as a parry instead of a movement ability. The escalating arms race went like this:

>In an attempt to one-up DS and MH, newer games make faster player characters
>bigger and flasher anime moves with less commitment
>little or no stamina cost
>strong ranged options which don't require 3s cast time
>At the same time, players themselves are getting better at this genre
>This makes old slow DS style enemies impotent, so now enemies have to keep up
>Enemies get longer arms and bigger attack areas to challenge better ranged player options
>Enemies get longer combos and less recovery to challenge your endless stamina
>Enemies get better tracking and movement to keep up with low player commitment and expanded player movement

The end result is that, in order to challenge the player, bosses now hit everywhere all of the time with massive sweeping attacks and the average endgame/DLC boss is now a super-Malenia who flies around the screen doing vergil slashes. This completely undermines the point of a ***movement ability*** because you can no longer move out of the way. Instead positioning is completely devalued and dodges become invulnerability timing checks which are functionally the same as parries.

When developers realised their dodge had just become a parry button which only functions as timed invulnerability, they responded by just giving up and actually turning it into a parry, and now everything is parryslop. What they should have done is gone in the opposite direction and make positioning matter again so that the most important aspect of dodging is where you're moving to, not when your i-frames happen

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>>738575727
There is nothing really wrong with "dodge rolls" conceptually.
But this idea that giving everything iframes is kind of lame.

If you're """""dodge""""" rolling it should be to actually dodge something. Not magically phase through it with iframes.

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>>738582301
>Why do people dishonestly pretend like dark souls invented iframes
Because they're casuals who don't know history

>>738582301
>dark souls invented iframes
Of course it didn't. But would you sincerely argue that it didn't massively popularize iframes?

Why the fuck do so many faggots talk as if these game design choices are fundamental design flaws and not just a part of system design?
Like what the fuck do you mean "dodge rolls are bad"? That's as broad, and retarded, as saying "jumping is bad". Why is this even a question that's come up? People are missing the forest for the trees type of thing.

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>>738582365
>Dodge roll makes no sense, it implies people can just suddenly accelerate their speed greatly but only for a moment which makes 0 sense.
People can accelerate their speed greatly but only for a moment and this "Dodging" is a core skill in actual melee. The difference being that videogames are an abstraction and you do not control individual bodyparts like QWOP, you control the position of the entire player hurtbox as a single unit

Dodges are an abstraction of a sway, or a duck, or any other form of actual body dodge. You move the entire character because that's how the game visualises this action, but your ability to dramatically shift position in a short period of time but only over a limited distance is a 1:1 translation of this image. Not that it matters whether it's realistic or not, because being realistic is not the point of a videogame

>>738575727
it's bad because of i-frames and the design of enemy attacks around utilization of i-frames. it's dishonest game design.

>>738575810
but even MH has huge iframe dive. name 2 iframe free melee action games I can experience both as a gamer and as a game dev.

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>>738583548
>but even MH has huge iframe dive
Superman dive is a good mechanic because it takes so long to recover that you ideally never want to use it. It exists as a safety option which punishes you for not finding a better way to avoid an attack, and you can emulate this idea in a Souls game if you do something like
>First press of dodge is a quickstep with no invulnerability which recovers quickly
>Pressing again mid-quickstep, so double tapping, makes you do a big dive that has loads of invulnerability but takes ages to get back up

Nioh mid stance pretends to do this but still gives you so much invulnerability on the first step that you just step through everything

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>>738576684
Boss attack frequency is just higher across the board. You can just nuke and not engage with certain character lineups but it's there for Holograms, I guess. Think it's inevitable if you really don't want enemy motions to feel one-note.

>>738583282
Genuinely dumb post, I'm baffled

>>738581717
Yes, see champion gundyr and pontiff in ds3, they get absolutely eviscerated by parries

>>738583282
iframes were already present in DmC and all his clones since 2001.

>>738584836
Iframes following knock-downs or damage taken or whatever was always relatively common.
But compare the number of games, or ratio of games being made, that featured player-induced iframes as part of the player's core moveset, before and after Dark Souls.

>>738575727
She would be bruised to hell and back after that

>>738576012
>Works the same way as Dark Souls but it's not a get out of jail card since the hotboxes aren't thin lines that pass over you in 0.1s
You never played a single MH game

It's wild how much FromSoftware has mindbroken this board.

>>738576346
The i-frames are the same, I think even older MonHun games had more of them, but with lingering hitboxes you'll be only able to make use of them if you're on the very edge of the attacks, in DS it feels like skipping rope especially since the attacks track.

>>738585083
Projecting much?

>>738585216
Ever since oldgen you could roll through roars, fireballs, tails and beams and you can STILL do it to this day, fuck off poser

>>738583427
>"Dodging" is a core skill in actual melee.
You can't dodge in real life if that's why you imply. Unlike what soulslop taught us melee attacks don't have a telegraphed windup, at least slow enough for us to react. What people do in the ring is try to make it harder for opponents to strike their weak points with form and hard to predict movement. It's all mindgames bullshit.
It's simply a bad mechanic and makes no sense thematically in any way. The fact dodges are faster than running in most games is already incredibly stupid, in some games spamming dodge allows you to traverse long distances faster even! What the fuck? Why can't you just give characters fast movement speed instead?
Death to all parry and dodge slop games.

>>738585251
>Here's some edge cases that prove my point
Can't hear you with Earplugs while you try and fail to roll through roars

>>738585297
>You can't dodge in real life
pfft, amateur

>>738575727
Dodge/dash mechanics are pretty standard these days and ain't impressing anyone so it's more about adding additional mechanics on top of it instead of looking for an alternative.

>dodge moonwalk
>dodge c-walk
>dodge bunnyhop

There's plenty of options, get creative.

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>>738585319
Edge cases my ass, nobody used earplugs especially back in the days because you could roll (or guard) through roars and shit effortlessly, everyone rolled through shit like Gravios beam sweeps or 90° tail sweeps because it was easy as piss, people rolled through hipchecks and fireballs too because it was the optimal defensive option, MH has always been chock full of i-frame bullshit, entire weapons like DBs are literally built on it, there's entire skill subsets that are all about giving you more i-frames.
Even in the early days of IG they gave it built in earplugs at full stacks so you wouldn't need to invest on it, in fact Earplugs only became relevant extremely recently with Milds because they made mons a lot more aggressive and generally faster than older games so that they can actually pull off roars that do something, and they also nerfed built in Earplugs/HA somewhat.
I want to fucking strangle you posers.

>>738578009
This is even fucking dumber since you'll never know how many points you need to get an iframe. You'll have to try until you figure it out, just like the rolling in DS1 but with extra steps.

>>738581015
>it's intended to be shit!
lmao

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>>738585436
>I will react to a jab in 0.01 seconds, no problem
Sure buddy

>>738575727
Like any mechanic it depends on how its used in the game.
A bad roll will suck. A good roll in a game where it makes sense will not.
It would be like adding monster breeding like in dragon quest monsters to something like armored core. Its nonsensical so its a bad mechanic in that context.

>>738585680
The positions people move between during a boxing match aren't random, ranges are chosen relative to the distance at which jabs can reach you before you can respond to them. You aren't reacting to the extension of a fist, you are reacting to the body movement necessary to get that fist into striking range, and the massively overextended punch in the last frame of your comic can be comfortably reacted to because it requires a forward step and a shift in the entire body

>>738575727
>then what is the best alternative to it?
Teleporting

>>738575727
No mater, the moment it feature a nigger, you won at life!

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>>738576684
I just tank everything in that game, for better or worse. Reactor Husk is a fucking NIGGER btw

>>738575727
Just make it so that jumping gives you iframes. The difference is that it's faster and shorter so the timing matters more, but besides these defensive attributes, you can also choose to commit to being in the air by doing aerial attacks

>>738575727
Change the dodge roll to having always female characters and the dodge button instead flashes the tits to the enemy or stars masturbating, it causes the enemy to be distracted and slightly move his attack off, you still need to time or position to avoid the attack and it is hot.

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>>738585680
Are you stupid?

>>738575921
>>738575986
It was hilarious when AC6 came out and Soulsbabies threw a fit because Quick Boost didn't make you invincible.

>>738583157
Is this game fun?

>>738583773
What game is that?

>thread is shitting on I-frame DDR
I never thought I'd see the day.

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>>738586362
>>738586392
that's No Rest For The Wicked

>>738586251
I am no boxer. But after the first couple of punches, why didn't he instantly pivot to chest or liver punches? Afraid to open himself up?

>>738586106
will try him tomorrow. I just rented Shrekeeper and start tanking everything.
>>738583781
Sure, was just noticing. The boss in the Mornye's quest also got the Khazan Viper's moveset in which the air arounds you turns into mist and the nigger start to jump towards you with flashing eyes - not that I'm saying they copied Khazan (too lazy to find out which was there first), but it was nostalgic.

>>738584960
>iframes were already present in DmC and all his clones since 2001.
You know that both DmC and Dark Souls could (and did) popularize things, right?
Even if DmC popularized it, Dark Souls popularized it again by taking it even further.

That said. You make it sound as if DmC clones were common or something. They've always been kind of niche and they've never been anywhere close to as influential.
And iframes existed before DmC too. But by the end of the day, Dark Souls absolutely massively popularized the idea of player-driven iframes.

>>738575986
And when DS2 came out, the whole "shield bad" shit started become more popular and Bloodborne hammered it home harder. Suddenly rolling through attackd was cool gameplay and defending and positioning was "boring"

>>738575986
I am still quite miffed about how how Sekiro's NG+ hardmode, doubles down on parrying instead of disabling it.
Sekiro is real fun if you play it without parrying.

>>738575727
>the best alternative to it
Like in a true fight, lean back, side and back steps, and a duck under movement

>>738575727
>what is the best alternative to it?
walking

iframes only became a "problem" after /v/ got butthurt.

>>738576557
There are a lot of games that would be improved by taking something from Dark Souls. That could be basic combat design of an enemy doing a telegraphed attack to dodge, or very specific things like healing potions that are set to a certain number at a checkpoint with no way to buy more. You're right that some people are just copying whatever Dark Souls does because it's popular, but fucking up the design so there's no real point to most of the things they copied. I remember the original Lords of the Fallen, which was transparently trying to be like Dark Souls. Just attacking and dodging and shit was miserable to do in that game to the point things that should be fun just aren't. I don't think there's any one thing in Dark Souls that's like a loud warning "ANY GAME WITH THIS WILL BE BAD." It does make sense to play a shitty Dark Souls clone and not want another one, though.

No one ever complains about dodging or blocking/counter mechanics in games like DMC, NG, KH etc.
I think Iframes are a necessary evil in 3d games, because otherwise you can't really have that many attacks (beyond maybe extremely basic thrusts and slashes)
or the player will just sit at range/use whatever weapon has the most reach.
Souls problem is simply that the defensive mechanics need to be depowered, the roll needs to have less i-frames and consume more stamina or something. Put more emphasis on the jump andpositioning, and maybe tell people about low profiling.

>>738589081
https://youtu.be/CKtAZPm1yw4

>>738575727
Dash

>>738575986
This and replies to it have to be some kind of larp, right? No way people were discovering what iframes are in Dark Souls (2000 + 11)

>>738589445
It actually makes sense.
For a lot of people, Souls was/is their first experience with this sort of (japanese) 3d action combat.
They were probably hot off of Skyrim or other games.

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>>738576096
>it's good when the hitbox is always active
it's redundant if you remove the iframe training wheels for babies

>>738589445
That game in particular seems to attract a lot of Redditors who have never played an action game before in their life, so a lot of them probably were surprised that the dodge roll is invincible at the start.

>>738589445
Hardcore gaming became much bigger in the 2010s. Souls and its clones since around 2015 became "baby's first" "hardcore" game. You can look at the sales of most profitable games by console through the ages.

>>738589817
Like, there are tons of games where dodging doesn't do this and the game gives you tons of defensive options without explaining shit. Zelda and Darksiders don't give me iframes at the start of dodges, so why should I expect this to?

>>738576181
This.
There's a lot of shittiness in Witcher 3's combat but the dodge system is based

>>738589961
Zelda does have invincible dodge rolls. Rolling in Ocarina of Time makes him invincible for a moment.
I played a 3D Ninja Gaiden shortly before Dark Souls, so I was very used to dodge rolls with invincibility. That game isn't crazy popular, so it makes sense that someone interested in action games hasn't played it. DMC has invincible dodge rolls. Kingdom Hearts has invincible dodge rolls. Not every game has it, but it's common enough that a move that makes the character roll on the ground probably is invincible.

No. Shield.

>>738589961
>>738590183
Zelda's dodge even without its Iframes cover a shitton of distance, too.

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>>738575727
>what is the best alternative to it
I know it's a foreign concept to dark souls players who are used to having a god mode button but hear me out, it's called moving.

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It's a good mechanic when it's used for movement and NOT just a "you're invincible for x frames" button.

>>738590602
>posts dmc, a game that has absurd i-frames on both the dodge roll AND jumping.

>>738590932
Shhh, shut up. You are not supposed to tell them that. They only play souls slop.

>>738575727
The dodge roll is just a continuation of Batman Arkham Asylum's system of enemies glowing red and force you to press a button to not take damage. It was even a topic of debate when it came out and how popular that system was and people realized that it dumbs down gameplay to just one button

>>738581717
>if you are good the game gets easier
Well duh.

there's nothing wrong about it per se, but it should have an opportunity cost and not be as free as it has been in games since dark souls 3 slopified souls games.
Ideally it should be long, commital and have a decent recovery.
In exchange, enemies should actually commit their attacks to a certain direction instead of the magnetized tracking bullshit that fromslop is famous for.
The way enemy tracking and dodge iframes centralize the gameplay experiences around themselves have just made souls games plain unfun for more than a decade now and it's just disappointing. The worst part is that elden ring enemy design exploits that, by technically having ways you can just force whiffs on some notorious enemy attacks and get better rewards than from a dodge (which is good) but the enemy animations so poorly communicate where the hitboxes that you wouldn't normally expect those to even be possible, they just look wrong or are reliant on wonky interactions between the enemy tracking and the player lock on.

>>738575921
this
dodge roll, dashes etc are good and make the game feel faster
but invincibility frames are just slop which makes you keep spamming it to escape

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>>738590602
>I know it's a foreign concept to dark souls players
kek, this bitch

>>738591403
Some games, especially in genres like this, are meant to still challenge a skilled player or still incentivize these players to do better. That's why something that could serve as an all-around solution that you can grind out and use to ignore the rest of the game is an issue, because that breaks the whole point of playing the game. Some games are made with the idea that you should just be rewarded for getting good enough, but players looking for a challenge are usually disappointed by those in the long run due to what was described above.

>>738591767
modern game enemies have too much tracking on you, can't just move away, plus they do much wider attacks

>>738591250
>The dodge roll is just a continuation of Batman Arkham Asylum's system of enemies glowing red and force you to press a button to not take damage.
Pressing a button to not take damage was not invented by Arkham Asylum.
I have problems with Arkham combat, but they have shit like knives, uncounterable attacks and even guns so the game doesn't turn into just pressing the "not die" button with the right timing.
>It was even a topic of debate when it came out and how popular that system was and people realized that it dumbs down gameplay to just one button
Dark Souls is reasonably criticized for feeling like you just press the dodge button at the right time in every fight. That's not really true, though. You have projectiles and armor and shit so you can kill an enemy not caring that they're trying to take a swing at you. There are shields that can sometimes completely nullify all damage, and even lowering the damage by like 70% is a huge boon. Certain attacks can be parried, which is generally way better than rolling through them. Enemies can flinch in pain when hit, so sometimes just attacking is the best way to not get hit. Dark Souls also seems to go out of its way to let the player avoid attacks by just moving away from them, while some other games decide that an enemy attack must always threaten the player and make tweaks so it can't be avoided by running.
An armchair intellectual might think that it's super smart for a game to not have any invincibility at all. In practice, it's not whether the game has an invincible dodge roll, it's whether there are other things worth doing to avoid damage besides that. Nobody was bother by the DMC invincible dodge roll. They just found plenty of other more useful things to do.

>>738583548
>>738575727
Still requesting 2 games to improve my action game literacy..

>>738575727
Dodge rolls are good.
Iframes are bad.
There should never be iframes on anything but an all in dive with huge animation and recovery frames. Everything else should require actually dodging the attack.

it shouldn't even be a roll
it should just be a sidestep
who the fuck rolls in real combat, just makes you more of a target

>>738591767
you can't do that when locked on. every boss in every souls game falls apart if you do it without lock on.

>>738592647
rolls make sense when you want the entire animation to be slower and more vulnerable. DS2 rolls make sense. They make considerably less sense as an animation the less recovery you give them

>>738592828
yes you can retard

>>738592942
walking backwards is too slow to move away from that

It's fine if a bit overdone, but I'm really tired of people aping arguably the weakest part of Fromsoft games (the combat). The combination of relatively slow player movement with lots of windup and recovery frames where you get stunned by almost everything, versus enemies that ignore getting smacked and move very quickly, offset only by precise iframe timing is really annoying.

>>738592990
YOU'RE too slow

>>738575996
Anal Wake has i-frames, the dodge timing is a bit weird but you can tell because it does that slow-mo effect when you get it right. You can tell because even if the swing from the Taken clips through your body, it doesn't hit if you triggered that effect. Enemies don't track you perfectly though so you can still dodge effectively even without getting that perfect timing every time.

>>738593014
wtf rude

>>738575986
Anyone shitting on this anon, keep in mind that I think he means that a gigantic sword visibly passing through your body but not hitting you because of the iframe timing isn't very intuitive.

>>738575727
Dodge roll good. I-Frames are gay.

>>738575986
>>738575921
This.
It also makes devs incredibly lazy. Attacks don't have to make sense, neither do hitboxes, because the player is just supposed to ghost through them anyway.
Dark Souls and its ilk are just endless QTE slop, where positioning doesn't matter in the slightest.

>>738591972
Yet the fact remains that people speedrun the game naked rolling every attack just like the average player would like to. Meme builds are not common even if possible and the game quickly breaks when you do them as it was designed for rolling in mind

>>738587032
LITERALLY for the love of the game.

>>738589445
I played it bit after it coming out.
The thing is that it just felt strange to have so much iframes where positioning and having to block seems more important. I just don't like it as development idea to have such generous iframes when the dodge roll should be a dodge, not "become invulnerable and reposition for free". The whole mechanic becomes more dominant and too meta and easier with lesser risk compared to defending. Especially since most bosses you are supposed to hug all the time to make them easier. If it just was a dodge move without iframes, it would make the game actually challenging. And if there was like a ring or something that would double damage taken but give iframes it would make sense.
Now defending is clunky and costly while dodgerolling is the absolute meta and easiest way to play

>roll in video game
>think it's for getting out of the way of an attack
>Silly me, it's actually for phasing out of existence for a moment so attacks can pass right through you
This always felt wrong.

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>>738575967
Dodge rolls are shit in most of their applications because of i-frames and heavy clipping, and they're just goofy to look at since having to dodge roll implies you're pretty much desperate to live. Reactive strafe dodges are cool though. Those make more sense since you're still keeping your eyes on your opponent and it actually looks like you're reading them and creating space without turning into an animal flopping around. Need more types of dodge like you're straight out of the matrix. Cyberpunk had that wacky thing where the juiced up cyberware enemies would jitter around (and t-pose) to dodge as much of your mag dump as possible.

I'm more of a parry enjoyer because there's less cognitive dissonance involved with parrying a hundred foot skyscraper sword compared to rolling into it as it phases through your entire body and the giant mob also face sits you at the same time.