How would (you) go about making evasion skills fun to use?Just saying "let's go gambling" isn't fun
>>739023309>How would (you) go about making evasion skills fun to use?Being able to dodge attacks is the fun part. What are you talking about?
>>739023354Sure until you lose the coin toss and die
>>739023528Then it's not a skill, it's an evasion stat you're talking about.
>>739023608I don't really care enough to get caught up on that little mispeak so okay
FF11 Ninja shadows and Red Mage blinkYou cast shadows on yourself and then you get 3 shadows that grant you 1 guaranteed dodge each. If you ever naturally dodge then you don't use up a shadow.
zero randomness, no % chance anything, all player skill and skill expression. you simply get out of the way. that's what dodging is.
>>739023309Stop making dodges chance based. Make them guaranteed but only for that turn or a certain amount of attacks.
>>739023309I wouldnt they're bad design
>>739023708Never played 11. Seems like that's pretty strong. Do they balance it out in anyway?
>>739023309God Hand did dodging well enough. Lots of bull, tons of intricate options, no matter what happens, you can still get hit.Another good game that did dodging really well was Ninja Gaiden Sigma. Lots of precision, almost exclusively moderated by stage design, and it's almost always fun to do.
>>739023309Ninja tanking in FFXI was fun.
>>739023901hah, no, they break fucking everything. That's why the devs just started making end-game enemy moves that delete all your shadows and hurt you anyways
>>739023309If it was about balancing it, I'd just make it a damage mitigation stat equivalent to armor or whatever, with some bullshit lore justification like "your evasion allows you to avoid the full force of blows you receive".
>HP tank: you know what's what>dev makes it shit by having high damage enemies>armour tank: you have no idea if it's good, your HP always looks so low>dev makes it shit by having armour piercing enemies>dodge tank: wow 50% is a big number!>50% is not a big number>95% is not a big number either, just look at real role playing games>stealth tank: not getting hit every other turn is great!>enemies don't attack that fast, rendering it pointlessI think FTL did an okay job as it was about attrition, not being one hit away from death at all times.
>>739023987Was that when the level cap was raised that allowed other tanks to get access to ninja shadows?
>>739024320you can get ninja shadows at like level 25 on subjob
>>739023309I still miss brewmaster monk, where instead of taking the full damage from attacks, you would take half damage and receive the rest as a dot.
>>739023309First things first, when you say evasion skills I will assume that the game doesn't already have a basic/universal dodge mechanic/maneuver.Now, aside from % of chance do dodge an attack, i think some form of mobility skill could work. Some skill that lets you maneuver faster than what other standard classes can.However i think that a "dodge tank" is a bad concept. For me, this type of thing makes more sense on high mobility squishy job. Maybe we could say that it is a "tank" because it hardly gets hit, but i wouldn't say that tank is the right word here
Make it so they have to get naked
>>739024273>HP tank: you know what's what>dev makes it shit by having high damage enemiesWhat? You wanted to say enemies that hit you for a % of your HP? High damage enemies don't make HP based tanks bad, if anything if not even a high HP can tank them these enemies will absolutely murder foes with low HP
>>739024273This is basically how combat in roguelikes works too. It doesn't matter if every fight drops your HP to less than 10% as long as you have enough HP/evasion/AC to win and hit the rest button.
>>73902330999% of "people" that like evasion tanks are just shitters that enjoy seeing the game play itselfa healthy industry would ban the very concept and never again feature any sort of evasion stat
Literally just make Dunban, one of the most fun characters to play in any RPG.
>>739024883>he hasn't seen Smough_Artorias.webm
>>739023309My first thought is to make the stat a threshold rather than a chance modifier. You could give attacks a “dodgeability” stat (I’m sure there’s a less dogshit name for it) that gets compared to the defenders evasion stat. If the evasion is higher, the attack gets dodged. If you don’t want to go through the nightmare task of adding a new parameter to every single individual attack in the game, you could use the length of the attack animation or the attack’s damage to compare to. And if you’re using the damage value, it could be inversely proportional so the more damage an attack does, the easier it is to dodge, plus a modifier depending on the enemy’s level (or an accuracy stat of their own) so that the final boss is allowed to hit a single party member.
>>739025105In a perfect world and a well-balanced game, Poise and Defense would not be stacked high on the same armor set. Instead of realizing this, they immediately made Havel's get staggered by a fly.
Make dodges guaranteed but evasion tanks can't pull aggro from multiple enemies.They can work great against a powerful boss but they can't redirect attacks
>>739023309
>>739023309never give the player too much dodge power. when the player has spammable iframe dodges, all the enemy design ends up being homing aoe spam, and the combat turns into a lame clusterfuck.
>>739023309FFXI Ninja is blink tank. They have a spell that gives 3 shadows on a 30 second cooldown, and another that gives 4 shadows on a 45 second cooldown. You gotta keep count of your shadows while managing the spells cooldowns.
>>739023309rock paper scissors >boss uses rock attackuse the paper dodge, using any other dodge and the boss hits you
>>739023697Your thread is fucked because your English isn't good enough to ask what you're trying to ask. This is now a dodgeroll thread.
>>739026531FFXI vet here (2004-2008), and they really just boiled down to being stat merchants. You have enough natural evasion to allow the cool down to come back up or you don't. Once you do, it's just how much money you save on materials / reliability of tanking. There's not really any skill involved (I say as a 75 WAR/NIN, 75 WHM/SMN).This all aside, I prefer active dodging. Short dashes or gap creation / kiting / slows and roots. I find that sort of active damage mitigation a lot more engaging
>>739026624Yes, Viewtiful Joe was a good game, thanks for reminding me
>>739026743Seems to be going fine anon. Be faster next time
>>739026624This isn't terrible, but it does depend on the implementation. As difficulty scales, enemies in games like this tend to end up being>3 second wind up for Dodge 1>0.2 second follow up that is either Dodge 2 or Dodge 3 with no tell And that kind of shit just gets frustrating because it doesn't feel like it's asking you to solve interesting problems. It's just "do you have a sufficient reaction time while we bait you into patterns we switch up on the fly". In essence, it can "feel cheap". It's all reactive. I prefer games where MY actions dictate the tempo
Lazy way to handle it is just to represent the evasion chance as its own hp bar. If you don't keep it up your stance breaks and you get hit
>>739027072I've legit never seen this don't, but that sounds like it might have neat potential
>>739029586I'm sure there's a game out there that lets you put up a shield or energy barrier for characters.Could work the same but maybe an evasion barrier has different properties on being attacked where as a normal one just acts as a separate health bar
>>739023309>evasion skills with active i-frames>evasion skills that passively build up dodge stacks that nullify damage>evasion skills that build up graze stacks that reduce damage takenOn paper, good evasion tanks are the same as good standard tanks and it's just the flavor of being a fast monk using his fists instead of a beefy guy with a shield.
>>739023309god TnL had the absolute worst stat system of any mmorpg in history>build evasion so you can dodge hits>new weapon gets released that has naturally high hit rates>you need to spend one gorillion dollars to re-roll >build endurance so you can tank hits>new weapon releases that counters your endurance>you need to spend one gorillion dollars to re-roll >build cc resistance so you can avoid being stunned>repeatfun fact: nobody knew what the skill in OP's image did for the first three months because the korean translations and tooltips were garbage
>>739023309Xenoblade 1 and Metaphor were great examples of agility tanks being really good and fun to play.
>>739029986>Dodge tank has to use hp recovery like skills that only he can use to keep up his dodge meter>If he lets it drop or draws too much aggro at once he can risk breaking and has a cool down to dodging Could be fun
Dunban/Shulk in Future Redeemed are the most fun dodge tanks.
If you have a grid and simultaneous action selection before the turn plays out you can make it an entirely skill based system through trying to get the correct read without relying on rhythm game tier parries or abstraction based on your stats
>>739023309>>739030343>>739024963Should have been the first post
>Game keeps slyly winking and nudging at you to take Heismay down the Knight path the whole game.>Grabbing a Taunt from the knight classes makes him ridiculously overpowered, instantly wiping out boss turns entirely if he dodges anything with his natural high evasion and excellent skills and accessories.
>>739023309Built in oneshot protection via a buff or the like.
