>dude Gwyn was actually evil all along
He was very obviously always morally ambiguous.>defied the natural cycle of light, dark, and entropy>sequestered and separated humans below Anor Londo>perverted the prophecy of the Dark Lord into that of the Chosen Undead, and dissipated it through the Way of the White, of which his uncle was the religious leader>purged New Londo because they still believed the prophecy of the Dark Lord and developed lifedrainIs it so hard to believe that a guy who was willing to incinerate himself to buy a little extra time for the status quo was willing to resort to other, less noble means to maintain it
>>739217848correct
>>739217848>Tried to troon out his sonHe was already evil you retard
>>739218762There is nothing evil about letting your son be what he wants to be
>>739218719>>perverted the prophecy of the Dark Lord into that of the Chosen Undead, and dissipated it through the Way of the White, of which his uncle was the religious leaderHey I also watched that video. It was very good
>>739218762wasn't that just noble crap to make succession issues defined
>>739218762he's cute thoughever so its fine
>>739218879wasn't he forced, through the Reversal Ring?
>>739218762Gwyndolin is a fucking sissy compared to the chad that is the nameless king.It would have happened either way. I bet Gwynevere did this.
>>739218972>hey boss where do we put the tranny ring?>put it somewhere trannish>you got it bossOMG ACTUALLY GWYN FORCEFULLY SISSIFIED AND BRUTALLY RAPED HIS SON WATCH THE LORE MOVIE!!!!
>>739217848>curse literally every single humanity from now until fucking foreverYes, he was fucking evil.
>>739217848I hate that ds3 LITERALLY spelled out loud what was already established in ds1.Nothing about that is new.Gwyn cursing humanity with the dark sign and shackling them to the fire AND shepherding them with the way of white propaganda was all ds1.
>>739219008>Boomers would rather put their kids on hormones than take them to a hobby shop and try to bond with themWowzers
>>739219084>until fucking foreverI'm the dark lord. Suck my dick, firecunt.
>>739218972he could have detrooned at any point after gwyn left, he clearly liked it
>>739219434>Gwyn cursing humanity with the dark sign and shackling them to the fireyoutuber headcanon
>>739217848You're a retard if you didn't understand that Gwyn was morally gray at best from the first cut-scene of DS1.
>>739220014yes, "gwyn was actually just evil all along" ruins the point of having a morally grey character
What's so evil about a king trying to defend his kingdom?
>>739217848He's an alien with alien powers (fire/light) in a world of Dark(ness), he's a colonizer trying his best to fight off the indigenous god of the world and its spawn. He failed.
>>739220078Cursing humanity or whatever tf DS3 said he did doesn't even make him purely evil. He was just acting in his and the other gods own interests. From his and their perspective he was doing the right thing to preserve their rule for as long as possible. Of course the player is a human/undead so we don't see it that way and view him as evil for acting against us.
>>739220301I don't think it's that so much as our character is wading through the consequences of those actions and we have the benefit of that observation. by ds3's time the world is so fundamentally broken the world itself is hollow and at the end of time all that's left is the desert of ash because there's nothing left to burn.
>>739219467boomers are too busy watching aislop while their troon kids hang themselves in the garage
>>739220301in the original game gwyn was an interesting character because nobody knows the consequences of the age of dark or about the cycles or whatever, so the fact that gwyn sacrifices himself to the flame makes it seem like gwyn probably believed what he was doing was the best solution to a hard problemds3 makes gwyn seem like a jealous tyrant who only cares about his legacy and hates the poor pygmies because he's racist or something
>>739220582lets be honest, if you got any substantial amount of power irl, you would also treat everyone like subhumans, because thats exactly what they are
Ds1:>Gwyn committed acts of good and evil. He died selflessly, yet afraidDs2: >The GREAT LORD was here. No one remembers who the LORD was. Was he even to begin with? Hmm, if only the BIG BREASTED GODDESS were here. She or the MOON TWINK would surely know…Ds3:>Gwynneth “Gwyn” D. Gwynderson was Literally Hitler. He spent his free time raping humans and roundhouse kicking pregnant women right in the baby bump.
>>739220686They think they're subverting a trope
>>739220686They're literally all ambiguous victims trying to survive eldritch god shenanigans, ESL speedreaderbro.
>>739220686they represent fundamental flaws of humanity
>>739220686Vendrick wasn't evil, and most of the great ones in Bloodborne weren't evil and didn't intentionally cause harm.
>>739220961"ESL" is just a general insult now
>>739217848He was not directly evil but certainly fucked up a bunch of shit just so his shitty age of fire didn't end.
>>739220961>>739220989>umabigi>thinking the comma is improperQ.E.D.Thanks for confirming.
>>739220686mike y. zaki has been remixing the same flavor for over a decade, and the tragic ruler corrupted by this or that is a fairly common archetype anywaymuh immortality muh desolate world is a way more trite repitition imho
>>739220961Shut ESL nigger, kys
>>739220686Thats what happens when you let an atheist write story
>>739220686Would you rather not have boss fights?
>>739220686Maybe I'm misremembering, but the Ivory King wasn't evil. He was unambiguously good, right?
>>739220686you make the bossfights important characters in the world so you have a reason for people to write notes or do crypitc ghost speeches about them.fantasy worlds mostly revolve around kings and churches.thats it.
>>739220686Vendrick and Ivory King were good, they were led astray by DARK pussy
>>739218762>"if you wanna act like a faggot them I'm gonna fuck you like one"- item description on the Ring of The Sun's Disappointment
Man, I really can't get the idea Gwyn being bad in anyway. He wasn't just some power hungry asshole. He literally sacrificed himself to continue what he started for others.He was the one that usurped the everlasting dragons and made something that was not static.The Undead Curse and prophecy literally gave humanity a purpose so they wouldn't go hollow and gave them hope.It's like Gwyn and the Age of Fire was the "Big Bang" - "Let there be light". And the Age of Dark is the heat death of nothingness and endlessness.
>>739222059dumb retard
>>739217848Yes. Fucking retard.
>>739222059You are correct but tricking humanity to burn themselves alive was p. fucked up. Giving humans dementia whenever the fire fades is also p. fucked up.
>>739220686Don't be retarded.
He wasn't evil. He was utterly devoted to his ideology and he sacrificed his own family and his life for it. Yes, he effectively enslaved humanity to the first flame, but he genuinely thought that was the right thing to do, and there were VERY compelling reasons to think he was right. He didn't anticipate that the first flame would eventually eat the world, but that was many eons in the future.
>>739220686Marika was just trying to fix the problem she created. She was at best an anti-villain. Anyone who doomed the world to eternal reset would want to find a way to progress. She was evil in the same way Majora was evil, but not wholly damning. Just unlucky.
>>739222059And the pigmies got a cool ethnostate city to chill until the end of time on their deal to help with the dragons, i wish our leaders did the same.
>>739222531yeah, I'm uncertain about that. it's said that humans by default are immortal (so they're undead)? hollowing is when you lose purposeness? I would assume an immortal being would lose purposeness pretty easily.I just assume the darksign weakening is just humans reverting to what they would be without the darksign. it's less a curse and more of a boon when it's actually strengthened by the Flame.
How many people in this thread right now even formed their opinion on the souls "lore" on their own and not through different types of youtube channels that spun their headcanon or took what that idiot vaati stole from 4chan speculations in threads many years ago?Some people talk about DS like they got their lore info out of the bible when it was really just something somebody else stated as a fact (not including the stuff the games explicitly tell you)
>>739222059He genocided the dragons and chilled in his castle throwing other people into the fire until there were barely any left worth burning, and only then did he burn himself
>>739222825Isnt that just life? Your own findings+what you learn from others+what was already written down.
>>739220686The trend started in King's Field games much like the Moonlight Sword.
>>739218762you gotta admit that's fucking hot
>>739222872>He genocided the dragonsAssuming he had to in order to stop the stagnation and create his civilization I think this would good>chilled in his castle throwing other people into the fire until there were barely any left worth burningI don't believe this is true. I've seen nothing saying he did so. The only person Gwyn through in the fire to prolong it was himself
>>739222801It's not quite clear, but it seems that some humans die forever and some are branded by the dark sign and become undead. This is generally seen as bad because you eventually lose your mind and can't die. That's a pretty shitty situation, being condemned to Alzheimer's. It's implied that when the first flame is linked, the dark sign or undead are seemingly no longer under threat of hollowing. If this weren't so, then undead have no reason to link the flame.Dark Souls 2 (rightly) makes it so humans are physically drawn to the first flame, which solves the issue of "what if nobody did anything?" It also adds to the notion that the natural state of humans is in fact being hollow.Dark Souls 3 introduces the dark sigil, which seems to be a pocket dimension of darkness applied to undead so that they'll never lose their minds no matter what. The tradeoff is you'll still look shriveled and old, which they have a ring for.
>>739220078From his POV he was entirely justified.
>>739222825>AAAAAAAAA NOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT OPINION SOME YOUTUBER HAS HAD THE SAME OPINION REEEEEEEEEE NO I CAN'T TELL YOU WHY THAT OPINION IS WRONG IT'S JUST BAD THAT YOU HAVE THE SAME OPINION STOP IT STOP FORMING OPINIONS IN WAYS I DON'T PERSONALLY LIKE
>>739217848>Dude who fought the very fundamental nature of the world everyone is beholden too for selfish stagnation on top of the food chain>is le badYeah no shit you retarded mixed breed
>>739220930Yeah my favourite thing about Bloodborne lore is that the Lovecraft monsters are generally benevolent despite their effects on people, with the exception of the Moon Presence who's actually malicious.
>>739221567Yup. He went nuts trying to keep Chaos contained and he was such a goody Good Guy that he unironically redeemed a shard of Manus sent to seduce and corrupt him into a wife who dearly loved him. He's the biggest chad in DS2 for sure.
>>739220192We are playing from the POV of the people getting enslaved and killed
>>739220502>by ds3's time the world is so fundamentally broken the world itself is hollowSource?
>>739217848Was there ever any doubt to be had about this? It's like you people only comprehend good and evil based on whether someone has protagonist appeal rather than, you know, whether they had anything to do with getting everybody killed and ruining the entire world.
>>739220686It's a kino trope. That's all.
>>739217848If you didn't immediately catch on to this from the opening cinematic, you were probably on the short bus in school.
>>739223504Don't be retarded.
>>739220686Didn't Allant only become evil after he got possessed by a demon?
>>739220686>why do corrupt people who are willing to step on others get into powerAlso, most deities in real life religions have been complete assholes.
Do humans go Hollow in their natural state or is that a feature of the darksign?
>>739221828>they were led astray by DARK pussyThe only weakness of so many strong men
>>739220290Ge's literally just a human that got a different, bigger soul at the start.
>>739218921Link to vid?
>>739223619No, the guy was a power hungry faggot who brought on the fog by fucking with soul arts.
>>739221139>and the tragic ruler corrupted by this or thatGwyn wasn't corrupted
>>739223728Unbelievable how something as basic as a pussy has the power to bring down entire kingdoms.
>>739223686Hollows are just the real forms of humans and gods. The reason the darksign fucks humans so badly is that it completely robs them of their fundamental soul. You're pulling the essence of humanity out of a human and now they're what they were.
>>739223619you don't get possessed by demons you either become one by fucking with soul arts or one manifests through the old one.
>>739223789Well, isn't Hollowing just Undead that lose purpose? Are Humans naturally Undead, or is that a feature of the Darksign? If it is a feature of the Darksign, then was actually is the natural state of Humans? It's not those floating black guys around Manus, is it?
>>739223812I guess I just remembered his son saying that his transformation was very sudden.
>>739217848he was a king and a conqueror. can't fret over every egg.
>>739223837You hollow when you die, whether or not you lose purpose. Hence the player character looking like jerky but continuing. You physically hollow from the darksign, the mental hollowing I assume just naturally follows.
>>739222825dumb retard
>>739223837Those are humanity phantoms which are disembodied fragments of the dark soul, think of them as like heartless from Kingdom Hearts while hollows are nobodies
>>739223837Humanity is "Humans", in that the Dark Soul gave humans their form, just like Life and Death gave witch bitch and neato their forms. Gwyn got light, and passed light onto his faction of gods. Pygmy got dark, and gave it to basically fucking everybody.
>>739223101>natural state of humans is in fact being hollow.The natural state of humans are these little dudes.Gods hollow the fuck out if they lose their souls.See GwynSee Nameless King
>>739224016Not for nothin anon but check these dubs.https://youtu.be/e0l73vAlEBQ?t=50
>>739223769corruption doesn't just mean evil hentai doujin substance that makes girls dress in purple latexgwyn and his crew brought in a new glorious age, but as time went on he had to make ever more drastic decisions to keep the thing going, if only as an illusion of its former glorysounds pretty corrupt to me but what do i know
>>739217848Light > DarkDeal with it, NEETs
>>739218719There was no cycle in the first game. That's Dark Souls 2's story.As for New Londo, The city was sealed away to contain The Abyss and Dark Wraiths, not because it was a settlement of humans, which there are countless of in Lordran and beyond. The Dark Wraiths attack the first living thing and their rescuer on site, so the city was evil and worth purging.One other strange notion that comes up a lot is this idea that Gwyn, his family, and the inhabitants of Anor Londo are somehow a different race from humanity, even though we literally see him turn hollow. I have no idea how this idea started, maybe it's because the concept of godhood is really fluid in these games and the whole, make enemies bigger than the player thing.
>>739219084Things that never happened, but he was still evil. But mostly because all kings are evil.
>>739225653>There was no cycle in the first game. That's Dark Souls 2's story.There is no cycle in DS3 either. We are STILL in the same ol same ol age of fire.
>>739225653Gods are powered by the lord soul of light which is enough to separate them from humans who are of the dark
>>739225653>One other strange notion that comes up a lot is this idea that Gwyn, his family, and the inhabitants of Anor Londo are somehow a different race from humanity, even though we literally see him turn hollow. I have no idea how this idea started, maybe it's because the concept of godhood is really fluid in these games and the whole, make enemies bigger than the player thing.They are entirely distinct because the "gods" possess a different primordial soul. The Light soul. Literally the opposite of the human one.
>>739220582It's even more frustrating because it's obvious without Fire, man does not receive the gift of knowledge or man's mind, so it's even more justified even in 3 because he is preserving the only sentience there is in the world.
>>739225901We are creatures of the dark. Your outside game knowledge matters not.
>>739225901>dude, don't you want sentience?>look at all of the rot and decay you can opine onBesides, Darkwraiths and "Dark" beings are clearly also sentient, the loss of all things that can be called "Human" can only occur once light and dark and all the other souls fizzle out completely.
>>739223226None of the shards of Manus were "sent" None of them sought to corrupt a monarch. That's just what women do to a nigga.It's not like they had a secret plot, they are just acting out of interest and instinct.There is an interesting piece of art on the last page of the concept art included in the steelbook for Dark Souls 2. It's Vendrick and Nashandra sitting on the Throne together while going hollow. Not sure why I can't find it on the internet...
>>739217848Gwyn was a boomer holding the future generations hostage, obviously he was evil.
>>739218719>>defied the natural cycle of light, dark, and entropyThere was no cycle, retard. If anything, he's the one who artificially created one.
>>739218879Read it again, fucker. Gwyn groomed his son into being a twink. And one anon already brought up the Reversal Ring, so there's that.
>>739220290>in a world of Dark(ness)That's bullshit, though. Prior to the Age of Light was the Age of Ancients, not an Age of Dark.
>>739225842>>739225874Yes, but The Witches of Izalith are also human and gods, and Nito is...humanoid It is true at least that great souls are responsible for power and godhood, but they are all just humans at base
>>739223217>with the exception of the Moon Presence who's actually malicious.Wow are YOU retarded. The Moon Presence is the once actively hunting down the Old Ones trying to """help""" humanity. She's unambiguously benevolent. And yes, she's a female, her name is "Flora of the Moon."
>>739226451>and Nito is...humanoidNito is obviously a dead Giant.
>>739226451>Yes, but The Witches of Izalith are also human and gods,No, they aren't. They are the witch of Izalith and her daughters of chaos. When the game talks about "GODS" it NEVER refers to them.In fact the game calls them "demons" for recreating the first flame and spawning a whole different species of creatures.
>>739225653Anon the floodgates in New Londo was built in from the very beginning, long before the Dark Wraiths and Abyss was ever present. Gwynn basically had a built-in genocide option because he was paranoid of humans and willing to kill the entire city if he ever felt like it, unless you're gonna say he has pre-cognition and somehow knew they would appear in the future but that opens such a can of worms he becomes entirely un-redeemable.
>>739226451>but they are all just humans at baseWhat you think is human and what the game defines as human are separate things.That's by design. If you still don't get these word plays or subersions of concepts, you are a retard.
>>739218947>thougheverThis is 4chan, not your literal tranny discord.>>739217848Nothing in these games is explained, it's all headcanon lazy writing.
>>739226562The game calls them deities at some point. I can't remember if it was in an item or if it was Laurentius of the Great Swamp. You're right that it doesn't say gods though.>>739226627>What you think is human and what the game defines as human are separate things.Okay. But what the game calls humans have the same origin as Gwyn, Nito, and the Witches of Izalith., also sharing the same morphology, language, intelligence etc...Even the "Dark" Humans have their own godlike and immortal beings. Godhood is a fluid concept in these games. None of them are actually God or gods.
>>739226608>Anon the floodgates in New Londo was built in from the very beginningThis could be true, but it would be an almost wild shot in the Dark. It would certainly work as a corral to destroy many lives at once, but it implies that being a ward against the Abyss is almost a coincidence. So he kinda did need to precog that the Abyss would happen to be there. The two birds with one stone but the birds really aren't in the same bush.The DLC muddies it even further, because They Abyss manifests far and wide, but that could just be retconning, which lord knows there's a lot of in this series.
>>739220686I'm sure it's a metaphor for real life politics and not just a kino writing trope.
>>739227527Shut the fuck up already jesus.
>>739227470No it's not really ambiguous at all, Gwyn was extremely paranoid about the rise of the Dark Lord, he knew the Dark Lord was going to come from a human culture, so he was fully prepared to genocide humans in his paranoia even though they had done nothing to him. I don't think the abyss started in New Londo, the abyss springs forth from the dark soul which is in every human.
>>739225653Kaath brings up the cycle in DS1
>>739225653>The Dark Wraiths attack the first living thing and their rescuer on site, so the city was evil and worth purging.Oh, is that why flooding New Londo and killing hundreds of humans was a necessary sacrifice? It's a good thing that the gods and the sealers left the city's streets clogged with the bodies of dead humans who were still living there so that the darkwraiths could drain and kill them at their leisure, an act of which there is conveniently no evidence of.The only evidence of what happened in New Londo is the cursed ghosts of dead humans, and Ingward says that curses are the domain of the gods.
>>739227835he does no such thinghe says the power of the flame naturally started to fade, and Gwyn tried to prevent it because he didn't want to lose his power and authorityabsolutely nothing is implying recurrence or cyclicality, only that the divine era of the world is ending and making place for the age of humanity"all results eventually lead back to the same situation" is purely a DS2 fabrication
>>739227808It's a suspect idea, because flooding the city couldn't possibly get rid of all the humans and Dark Lord candidates. There's the other kingdoms, and even the other human settlements in Lordran. At the same time The Abyss must be sealed and they could only make counteractions against it, not predict it. All of the info of Gwyn's fears and enmities comes from Kaathe who is the least trustworthy person in videogame history, basically a lawyer who runs cover for murderhobo vampires.Don't you think it's too much of a coincidence that the only human city chosen for destruction was the one that just happened to have the Abyss and not any others?
>>739227808This. Look around Lordran; humans (undead) are a literal underclass, disconnected from Anor Londo and each other, and fed lies by the Way of White. There is no evidence that Lordran ever faced an external threat after the defeat of the ancient dragons and the demons born from from the flame of chaos, and yet the human settlements of Lordran are all divided by, encircled by walls. They're also completely cut off from Anor Londo itself, conveniently, with the collapse of the tunnel from Sen's Fortress. Every time any human society dabbles in the dark, they're wiped off the map before the contagion spreads to other humans, like Oolacile and New Londo.
>>739217848I think everyone kind of inherently knew stopping the cycle was going to be bad but the peak of the age of fire was just that good to be in. Nobody objected, not even the pygmies who were having their "turn" stolen. Dark Souls is just a gerontocracy story
>>739225653>One other strange notion that comes up a lot is this idea that Gwyn, his family, and the inhabitants of Anor Londo are somehow a different race from humanityThey are tho. The Gods are a different race from humans, who have a fragment of the Dark Soul> even though we literally see him turn hollow.Gwyn doesn't go hollow, he's an empty husk because he kindled the First Flame. Only undeads go hollow, and only humans are affilcted with the undead curse
>>739228783>Gwyn doesn't go hollow, he's an empty husk because he kindled the First Flame.So he's hollow>Only undeads go hollowYeah retard, they go hollow from being bound to the First Flame by the Darksign, which also is the same effect of Gwyn
>>739228690>Nobody objected, not even the pygmies who were having their "turn" stolen.The Pygmy Lords were gifted a whole city, but the dlc implies it was a prison and that not everyone was satisfied with the circumstances. Of course the royalty among the pygmies would have been okay with everything. They were royalty.
>>739227139>Okay. But what the game calls humans have the same origin as Gwyn, Nito, and the Witches of IzalithNo.
>>739228783>Gwyn doesn't go hollow, he's an empty husk because he kindled the First Flame. Only undeads go hollow, and only humans are affilcted with the undead curseGwyn is hollow.Nameless King is hollow as well.Did you even play the games?
>>739229191Yes, they're all the little hollow dudes that showed up to the fire.
>>739228312>Don't you think it's too much of a coincidence that the only human city chosen for destruction was the one that just happened to have the Abyss and not any others?Yea because that's where some of the abyss emerged, if it emerged in any of the other human settlements he would have genocided them all the same. I don't think Gwyn was aware that Manus being buried under Oolacile is why the abyss grows from that area, he just knew the abyss came from humans and the abyss is connected to the Dark Lord so any gathering of humans was a potential threat to him since he was paranoid.Fact still remains he constructed a built in genocide mechanism for New Londo from the very beginning, it wasn't some desperate last ditch effort to save them it was his contingency plan.I don't think he enjoyed killing New Londo, but he clearly was willing to indiscriminately wipe out humanity to sate his paranoia.
>>739227139>what the game calls humans have the same origin as Gwyn, Nito, and the Witches of IzalithDark Soul = HumanityPeople with pieces of the Dark Soul = humanNo Dark Soul = NOT humanPygmy before finding the Dark Soul = NOT human
>>739229251Your point?
I assumed he was evil when he took over the world after starting an unprovoked war with the dragons. All Ringed City did was spell it out.
>>739229383Dragons were lazy inert fucking shits
>>739229348That's what an "Origin" is.
>>739229078>>Gwyn doesn't go hollow, he's an empty husk because he kindled the First Flame.>So he's hollowNo. Are you slow? Only undeads go hollow, and only humans can become undead. There's zero evidence of any God in Dark Souls 1 being afflicted with the undead curse>>739229224Nope, Gwyn isn't hollow, you are retarded. And I'm not bringing Fanfic Souls 3 into it, I'm talking about DaS1 in isolation, but Nameless King isn't hollow either
>>739219584He did detroon, the ring is not on Gwyndolin in DS3.
>>739229298You're arguing in a weird way.You're saying that Gwyn specifically built a "genocide machine" in New Londo, but then you also argue that Gwyn believed the dark/abyss could emerge anywhere humans are.So he built "genocide machines" everywhere then? Clearly not.New Londo was specifically a unique case.
>>739229506The story starts when whatever creatures find the four lord souls. It's the big bang of the series. Doesn't matter for the story what was before that.
>>739229573The story starts with the age of the dragons, which is why they talk about it.
>>739226459The Old Ones are detached at most, the ones found by humans get kidnapped, abused, tortured and tricked.
>>739226459She ain't helping shit man she's like a spider that keeps humanity in her web when she gets hungry.
>father to a trannyimagine being such a fucking pathetic bitch father that you put trannies into the world lmao
>>739229520>Only undeads go hollowWrong>Are you slow? Are you?Hollowing is the process of becoming hollow, losing your soul.Seathe is hollow because his soul is crystallized to make him immortalGwyn is hollow because he binded the Fire and was consumed by itThe Undead Dragons had their soul robbed to be harvestedThe Undead Curse is one of many processes to become hollow
Sperging about souls acid trip lore is onions.
>>739217848why is the skull giving that old dude a blowjob?
>>739230859Nta but Miyazaki actually talked about these guys in interview and didn't call it the undead curse
>>739217848didn't need the 3rd one to get to that point chud
>>739218972he was forced bc he was born after the 11pm "where are your kids" anouncement
>>739228783Aren't they just people who found the lord souls and became gods?>from the dark they came,
>>739231186The game calls them undead dragons lol
>>739219434he didnt curse shit, even the humans themselves don't like what happens when their dark souls run wild: manus and the entirety of oolacile, pus of man, locusts and pilgrim butterfliesonly ones who think mankind's "natural" state is better are the darkwraiths and the loonies of londor
>>739229310The whole thing of sacrificing yourself in the first flame is feeding it your humanity, Gwyn did it and ergo had humanity to burn.
>>739223324patches deserves it
>>739231364Undead the way Nito and the skeletons are>>739229573Isn't it hollows shown in the opening? They get the souls of lords and become gods
Vendrick better.
>>739231028What a bonehead question.
>>739230859>picThey are never referred to as ''Undead Dragons'' anywhere in the game, they're clearly survivors of the war that are barely clinging to life after being attacked by Nito's disease, and that's why they spew toxic breath>Hollowing is the process of becoming hollow, losing your soul.It's a process of an undead losing its Humanity, and only humans become undead, humans that aren't undead just die normally. There is zero evidence anywhere of any God in Dark Souls going hollow. Do you think that Gwyn and the diseased dragons just respawn at a bonfire somewhere?
>>739231736he was pussy-whipped, his game isnt canon, nashandra is a stupid ratchet name and the "daughters of manus" was a dumb conceptso no
>>739232204>he was pussy-whippedNot really, he outsmarted her.>>739232204>his game isnt canonIt is, cope n seethe.
>>739229569It's not like all the other human settlements are open and free, everywhere there is humans there is walls around them in ways that make no sense for defense against outside attackers. Why exactly do you think Gwyn built New Londo underground with convenient access to a sea he could use to flood it with instead of literally anywhere else on the surface? It would have been infinitely more expensive and laborious to build it there than just somewhere on the surface.If he did know all about Oolicile and the abyss then why the fuck would he build a large human settlement right next to it? I guess it makes sense if you assume Gwyn knew literally nothing about the abyss/Dark lord and humans connection to it, but we know for sure he did and was paranoid about it.
>>739231736I really enjoy From Software taking ideas and shining a different light through or on them. They revisited the idea of Vendrick with Godfrey / Hoarah Loux in that Vendrick was a king who valued physical strength above all else. They're even both giant, bearded kings. The Owl has echoes of Vendrick as well, a giant bearded man who guides the player character, but for however physically strong the Owl is, he prefers subterfuge and underhanded tricks, and ultimately betrays Wolf. They even took the betrayal aspect and gave this to Godfrey as well, as cut content shows that Godfrey would have personally sent us to the Lands Between.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMu7FvNP2Z4
>>739232480because it's thematic, the games are about tired, rotting worlds shambling on on death's door, refusing to end ithaving thriving communities would contradict thisit's like asking why slashers don't feature action packed car chases on 8 lane highways
>>739232204ds2 is cannon, you'd know that if you'd played ringed city
>>739217848Duh, he is the final boss.
>>739222059All figures of authority are icky and le bad, chud. Thats what a part of the Souls community thinks (the troon part).
>>739233006what did he mean by this. the entirety of the souls community agrees gwyn is a tragic figure. what the fuck do you think the plin plin plon meme is all about.
You know what? If its either>a. Continue the age of fire, migjt not be as great as it was but eh its okOr >b. Have locusts eat you and everything for eternityIll choose the age of fire.Sorry/not sorry
>>739232165you fucking idiot, anon. Why do humans become hollow? Because their SOULS through BONFIRED and curse is being BURNED to fuel the first flame leaving them HOLLOW. Literally same exact shit is possible to be done to anyone. Any loss of soul would leave you hollow. Gwyn lost his soul in same exact way hollows do. And finally, both fucking humans and gwyn STARTED as hollows before getting lord souls. They are not a separate race, they do not follow a separate fate, the only difference is HOW someone loses soul, because everyone got it the same way. Even fucking dragons somehow got soul and got mortal.
>>739233248The dlcs (except for the Dreg Heap) were in part commentaries on greed. The locusts were parallels to players, wanting more and more. Friede, Vilhelm, Patches, and Shira end up spelling it out. It's not >you're bad for playing this gamebut>We have to let the past die, but I guess that's not possible for humans
>>739233404The future turned out to be elden ring which is open world slop with lore 1000x worse than souls lore. Bad deal, shouldn't have let the past die
>>739233540Elden Ring sold 30 million copies so for everyone who worked on it, it was a great deal. Bad for anyone who actually likes video games because hoo boy did I dislike driving a goathorse from dungeon to dungeon.
>>739217848Humans are the niggers of the Souls universe Gwyn was right.
>>739217848>murders race of chill-ass dragons for literally doing nothingyeah, he's a baddy.
>>739233932They were parked in my spot.
>>739233273I don't know where you got this fanfiction interpretation of the lore, but you're literally just making shit up>Why do humans become hollow? Because their SOULS through BONFIRED and curse is being BURNED to fuel the first flame leaving them HOLLOW.???Humans go hollow from not having enough Humanity while being undead. It has zero to do with ''burning their souls'', the smaller souls are used to power yourself up>Literally same exact shit is possible to be done to anyoneNo, retard. Only humans are afflicted with the Undead curse, again there's zero evidence of any hollow beings that aren't undead humans>They are not a separate race, they do not follow a separate fate,Debatable, if they weren't already a seperate race, then getting the different Lord Souls created the different races>both fucking humans and gwyn STARTED as hollows before getting lord souls.This is Vaati tier fanfic. There were no hollows before there was the undead curse, which only appeared relatively recenetly in the timeline. The beings in the cinematics are pygmies or just humanoids, it's not specified
>>739217848one thing I dislike about das3/ringed city is that we got next to nothing about the primordial serpentswe know that kaathe died through yuria's dialog, and that the kingdom of lothric knew about them (or at least one of them, most likely frampt) since they made statues of them but we never got to know what they were exactly
>>739234071>There were no hollows before there was the undead cursewhat are these then?
>>739234071pigmies or humanoids that look EXACTLY like beef jerky hollows who were fucking immortal apparently too. If only hollows are afflicted by undead curse, then tell me why oh why THE FUCKING SKY in 3 has the darksign? Why namelss king is literally hollow? And many other things which are definitely not human and weren't branded? FUCKING DOGS AND RATS IN DS1 ARE ZOMBIES. Maybe stop ignorning the very obvious things in front of you? Sure it isn't THE hollowing or THE undead curse, except it looks EXACTLY like them. If it flies like hollowing and barks like hollowing - it probably fucking is hollowing.
>>739225653>One other strange notion that comes up a lot is this idea that Gwyn, his family, and the inhabitants of Anor Londo are somehow a different race from humanity, even though we literally see him turn hollow. I have no idea how this idea started, maybe it's because the concept of godhood is really fluid in these games and the whole, make enemies bigger than the player thing.gonna be honest mane I kind of took that for granted this whole time
>>739234254You won't like my answer but it's desire and envy and just wanting to cause chaos and control things. They're like the Two Fingers in Elden Ring. The Two Fingers can't fuck, so they prop themselves up and exercise control over powerful beings. Notably there are serpents in Elden Ring, but they're even more behind the scenes so who knows what their deal is.
Honestly, I've never liked Ringed City. The first half is just a mashup of cut assets that didn't make it into the base game and the second half is a hilariously rushed attempt at an epilogue to the Dark Souls "story". For some reason, people are so impressed with Gael being the final boss but I just thought it was random. The only interesting things are Midir and Shira and both those feel like they pulled the plug on whatever questline there was before they were done. TRC felt like it was building up to something and then it's just kinda over.
>>739234945It was a necessary narrative sidestep because there was no way From could have made a confrontation with the pygmy lords satisfying. Not in combat, either. It would have been the epitome of >Player is a murder hoboGael gets to take the role of murder hobo, and we get to kill him and accomplish a righteous deed. You don't have to like it but that was genuinely the point. None of that >TWO NOBODIES FIGHTING OVER NOTHING AT THE END OF THE WORLDNo that's dumb gay bullshit. It's implied Gael knew he wasn't going to make it back to Ariandel, but he was too far gone and attacked us on sight. Might makes right, desire lays the foundation for destruction, and there can only be one. It's that simple. Gwyn wanted to extend his age, he doomed all of existence. The player wants more game, ends up destroying the Ringed City.>That's just nonsenseEven in Nightreign they're pushing this theme. Executor's rememberance has his previous self telling him to be happy with what he has.However, destruction and desire have their place. Gael, despite murdering and eating the pygmy lords, did it so Ariandel could be saved. Just like how Wolf murders anyone who gets in his way so he can help Kuro remove immortality from the world. Notice both these characters are serving someone who is trying to help others. That's when desire is permitted. From Software are very careful about this: Miquella has similar motives to the painter and Kuro, but he casts aside Trina in the deepest hole in the world so she can rot and die. That ends up being his fatal mistake, as she begs the player to kill him. There's also Ayre, 621, Allmind, and Iguazu. Allmind wants to control humanity like the Two Fingers and the serpents, Iguazu just wants to kill 621. Ayre believes in the potential of humans and coral, and so the narrative puts us in the position of hero. tl;dr From have a moral compass that necessitated Dark Souls 3 ending the way it does.
>>739234354Like I said, pygmies, before any of the races like Lords and Humans were formed as we know them. Hollows are something specific>>739234381Dude, it's not that complicated. The Undead curse is something that appeared recently as fire started to fade. Only humans are afflicted with the Undead curse, and Undead who are without Humanity end up becoming Hollow. The Hollows keep coming back to life, and it's gotten so bad that they've basically become a plague. The human kingdoms resort to hunting them down and locking them up. Wanting to flee from that, and wanting to find a cure, is why the Undead are venturing to Lordran. Every Undead you meet in the game is a human from a human kingdom like Catarina or Astora. There are no hollow dragons or hollow rats or hollow Lords, Gwyn is a unique case where he literally used his soul to rekindle the First Flame, but the Gods don't go hollow like undead do, Gwyn does not keep coming back to life at the bonfire after you kill him> then tell me why oh why THE FUCKING SKY in 3 has the darksign? I'm talking about Dark Souls in isolation>FUCKING DOGS AND RATS IN DS1 ARE ZOMBIESNo, they are not, they look diseased because they're living in ruins, but they're not respawning at the bonfire like the undead do, none of this is in the lore or the world
>>739229520Which state do we found Gwyn at the end of the game? Did you really played it larper??
>>739235589bitch you are telling us the most obvious shit while we are trying to explain you THE IMPLICATIONS that obvious shit has. But no, you are being autistic and not seeing the forest for the trees.
>>739235652Burned. Gwyn isn't hollow, he has a soul of fire.
>>739235652A mindless shell, but not a Hollow. You know, just like how Logan going insane at the end of his quest, doesn't mean he went hollow. Hollowing is something specific, retard
>>739235735Clearly not obvious enough if you think rats and dogs in Dark Souls are ''Hollows'' lol
>>739235763https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/gwyn-lord-of-cinder-dark-souls-remastered-5237740957b248cbb0d3c0f9f53f9d75
>>739235882>look like beef jerkey hollows instead of actually looking diseased>literally are walking skeletons by DS3Your headcanons are being contradicted by your own eyes, anon
>>739235886Yeah he's burned. He has a soul of fire. Anon it's 15 years since Dark Souls. Hollowing is a human matter. It happens to those who are made of the dark soul. Gwyn is animated by a lord soul, a thing of fire. This isn't headcanon. Hollowing is something that only happens to humans because they possess the dark soul. That's why there were undead hunts, that's why they are prisons, etc.
>>739235959>>look like beef jerkey hollows instead of actually looking diseasedBut they don't, lol. They literally have all their flesh and fur, they just have some cuts and bruises. The fact that you think this makes the rats Hollows is fucking hilarious lol
>>739236002humans don't hollow because of humanity you fucking retard, humans hollow because of the dark sign. Humans DO NOT FUCKING DIE along with light souls beigns because of the dark soul. Yet dark sign saps them of said dark soul which is why we need to eat humanity. If there was no FIRE BRAND, THE LIGHT THING humans wouldn't hollow. Which means that as firebrand can burn humans, anything light can burn itself to the point of humans. Light soul - living body. No light soul - dead body. Dark soul - dead body that is still living hence undead. What do you not understand?
>>739236090now google the dogs, smartass
>>739236148Humans hollow because they have the dark soul, yes, that's what I said. You are agreeing with me.
>>739236204humans REMAIN SANE when dead because of dark soul. Human HOLLOW because NO DARK SOUL. A god can be half-dead burning most of his light soul to the fire and looks half-dead AKA EXACTLY LIKE FUCKING HOLLOW. Which how gwyn looks. Which how every fucking thing in ds3 looks.
>>739236191They look like malnourshed dogs. What's your comeback for the ''rats are Hollows because they look like beef jerky'' (they don't) argument?
>>739236276Anon I have to sleep but we're in agreement I don't know how you don't see that. And this isn't me running off giggling that I have the last word. We agree with each other. Sheesh.
Wait people unironically still think that the term god wasn't just used because Gwyn and his people wanted to elevate themselves above the people he ruled? They think he's an actual divine being instead of like the many god-kings in human history?
>>739217848Dark Souls 3 is a weird game lore wise. It kinda feels like the story is criticizing you for enjoying the games the wrong way and flanderizing the series. The gameplay also reflects this theme. But it’s like, they’re the ones who made the game. They didn’t have to make it like that.
>2026>caring about fromsoft """lore"""lmaoing at all of you.
>>739236704They're not omnipotent obviously, but they're still a separate race due to their Lord Soul. I mean you have a weapon path, Occult, that literally only works on the Gods
>>739236704they are not literal gods but they're not exactly human either
>>739220686>>739220686>>739220686???
>>739220686
What if i LIKED nonexistence in a formless timeless dragon hell forever
>>739236704he shoots lightning bolts out of his hands
>>739237050>>739237115That's odd that it was deleted but good riddance it was a retarded post.
>>739229191It's true, "Then from the dark THEY came"
I mean we get a live preview of what the age of dark would be like in DS3 in the dark firelink shrine after champion gundyr.I guess maybe it wasn't a "real" darkness since Ludleth was able to turn the lights again at least for a short while again somehow.But still It's not like you die or go crazy immediately.You just sort of chill in the darkness, potentially with your pals if you have any for an undeterminate amount of time until the fire returns (firekeeper says that she sees distant tiny dancing flames even in the age of dark limbo). You probably shut down mentally and revert to whatever those things in the DS1 intro are, but presumably become immortal and can go back to being a natty human again once the world grows strong enough to support the flame again.Seems pretty comfy desu.. Certainly better than being alive/hollow during the apocalyptic shitstorms we see in the games. Especially ds3.
>>739236871occult damage does something in ds1??
>>739218762There's actually a satisfying read to it, his firstborn son rebelled against him, but his daughters were all loyal, so he raised his second son as a daughter so he wouldn't rebel; beneath the moon the second son became the dark sun.
>>739239162his second son also became my cock sleeve so there's that.
>>739239162>>739239195The writers barely disguised fetish but it’s well written so people don’t mind.
>>739238934Yeah they deal extra damage to Silver and Black knights, anor londo giant sentinels, gwyndolin, gwyn, leeroy and ornstein (but not smough). The Dark Hand, Priscilla's Dagger and Velka's Rapier also have this effect.
>>739240946bullshit
yes he was
>>739222881>Only if you were there you can speak with objectivity,okay??? It doesn't Matter if you are able to read and see every act in history of the game first person,okay???
>>739217848Gwyn is both a God and Hollow. The fags that focus too much on the lore and want everything to work out like a mathematical equation are just obsessed. You act like you know everything of a world where life, death, time, space and physics are twisted beyond comprehension. Miyazaki probably didn't have in mind anything beyond a very generic outline and you fags try to fit your theories it in every detail. For ER they called the fatass to lay out the plot more clearly because with DS they weren't thinking so long term and from 1 to 3 they couldn't tie it together that perfectly. Because it's not meant to
>>739218762>Tried to troon out his sonGwyn didn't try to troon out his son, he did it successfully.
>>739219434>Gwyn cursing humanity with the dark signThe ring of fire (darksign) isn't a curse. The 'curse' narrative is propaganda by the gods. The gods call it the 'undead curse' to stop humans from realizing that immortality is their natural state. The fact you don't know this shows that DS3 didn't spell it out loud.
>>739220582>ds3 makes gwyn seem like a jealous tyrant who only cares about his legacy and hates the poor pygmies because he's racist or somethingIn DS1, Kaathe spells it out to you that he was a jealous and terrified tyrant.
>>739246662I didn't trust Kaathe back then
Don't care. Still love the game.
>>739223686>Do humans go Hollow in their natural state or is that a feature of the darksign?Hollow is strictly a human state where the white soul within men's corporeal form (sense of self) is consumed by the dark soul that's also within men when the ring of fire (darksign) begins to fade. All souls are fated to fade, but the dark soul doesn't because it has the power of eternity. Also, the dark soul is greedy and will eat life to grow in power, with souls being a concentration of life. This is what Vendrick means when he said "The brighter the flame, the deeper the shadow", indicating that the dark soul within you grows in power the more your white soul (sense of self) grows. However, the dark soul within you will eventually grow faster because all other souls (flame) are transitory. It's a double whammy to your sense of self.As for someone like Gwyn who isn't human. He isn't hollow, he is what you would call a husk because the curse of life (soul/flame) is transitory.
>>739233932I feel like the dragons would be great smoking buddies because they wouldn't be yapping your ears off and they wouldn't mind awkward silences so you can just get stoned af and chill with your ancient dragon stoner friend
>>739217848>tfw mogged by humans so hard you have to create a fake religion to prevent the appearance of the Dark Gigalord
The true redpill is that none of the stories actually make any fucking sense and it's all esoteric bullshit so fromsoft has a good foundation to make some dope ass fuck dungeons and monsters
>>739229224Gwyn and Nameless are not hollows, they are husks. That might sound pedantic, but it really is significant. The souls in Gwyn and Nameless have faded, whereas human have their dark soul eat away at their white soul. Hollowing in real life (as in tree hollowing) is caused by a fungus that eats away a tree's internals. A husk is like a discarded shell, which makes sense for the race of gods as their souls fade away.
>>739247729holy headcanon
>>739247703You say this in every fucking Dark Soul lore thread. You're just being a spiteful cunt because you're too simple to understand environmental story telling and implied lore through subtext of item descriptions.
>>739222531>Giving humans dementia whenever the fire fades is also p. fucked upIsn't that just the natural state of human? Aren't they basically just animals without the fire?
One day fire will fade, and dark will become a curse.Men will be free from death, left to wander eternally.Dark will again be ours, and in our true shape, we can bury the false legends of yore.
Let the feast begin
>>739222872Gwyn was the first person to link the fire. In fact before the player does it at the end of Dark Souls 1 nobody else in the universe has ever linked the fire except Gwyn, everyone else who tried failed to even make it past Sen's fortress.
>>739219434Didn't the snake guy explain that humans' true potential lie with becoming an immortal undead murder hobo? And being a mortal sane human as Gwyn intended is le bad?
>>739248102I think you're talking about someone else, dumb schizo
>>739225842>>739225874>>739228783He's right in the sense that before Gwyn, Nito, Izalith, and the furtive pygmy found the lord souls they were all apart of the same race ambiguously referred to as "They" when the narrator says "Then from the dark, They came, and found the Souls of Lords within the flame."
>>739248730Didn’t Izaleth try it first but it screwed up and made another one, chaos flame? Or did she try and make a new one because the first flame was fading? I can’t recall.
>>739249224She attempted to recreate the first flame. The English translation implies she did this out of desperation due to the fire fading but supposedly the original Japanese implies she did this out of pure ambition, probably trying to match Gwyn's power or even usurp him which explains why he went to war with the demons.
Elden Ring's lore is more interesting
>>739249346Proof that Nito was the only cool one.
>>739249224The three main lords are bound to the logic of the first flame, so with it fading, Izalith decided to create her own for her clan to escape it. She succeeded, but she created a twisted form of life from it with lots of rough arse results, such as her son Ceaseless Discharge. Gwyn's war on Izalith appears to be a result of them falling out over her method of making a flame of her own (using shards of the dark soul), plus hubris. Basically she told Gwyn to fuck off and die and he didn't take kindly to that.
>>739249370bed breaking mating oriented bareback sex with ryas
>>739249803I do not recall anywhere stating she used parts of the dark soul. That sounds like headcanon you threw in there. She just lost control of it, because she didn’t know what she was doing.
>>739249802fr he just wanted to play with his dead bodies and shit
>>739249896Not him but Chaos is connected to Humanity.
>>739249370God no, shit was so lame, I couldn't even be assed to learn all the new names and terms for this played out, asset flip world
>>739249960Once again, I don’t recall this being stated anywhere. Not in 1, 2, or 3. Chaos is chaos, there’s nothing to imply it’s related to humanity/dark souls. If I’m wrong, I’d be happy to be corrected, but if I am wrong, post it. I assume it’s from DS3, and the DLC that states this because I barely remember that.
>>739225746I hate you so much
>>739249896Nigger, you are the result of someon who does... not... fucking... study... subtext. Chaos fucking weapons are powered by stored soft humanity. They increase in power the more you have, with ten soft humanities being the most you can have to max out that boost in power.Now shut the fuck up with your accusations about headcannon. You know fuck all because you're stupid.
>>739250045>my unc brain can't learn new thingssad
>>739250259diddy ahh uncs fr fr deadahh
>>739250259Zoomer shitsloppa isn't worth wasting my time on. I'm sorry you grew up post-quality and never knew good games
>>739250140The damage on Chaos weapons scales with how much soft humanity you have. Not to mention that the Chaos Servant covenant is all about feeding humanity to creatures of chaos in order to make them healthy and help them grow.
>>739249370Hunchback snake girl is the best thing about elden ring, the story is fucking shit.
>learning new things is hard past 30, that new From game is just slop after all
>>739250215So nothing other than game mechanics? Hollowing scales with luck in DS3, so luck is inherently dark souls linked? Same with poison and bleed? Furthermore, the chaos flame is all but dead in 3, yet it should still persist and be being worshiped by the pilgrims or Yuri and crew because it would have been revealed “there’s humanity in this flame too” and the dark soul does not die unlike the other two, but NO ONE mentions that. Shoot, DS2 literally made hexes linked with the abyss, so humanity, yet there is never any text, dialogue, or even hint that humanity was used by the witches, you could at least say that it seems like humanity were the only ones who ever seemed to show interest in pyromancy, but no, you used a game mechanic as your “proof”. So PLEASE shut up and stop inserting crap. I could just as easily say chaos weapons become stronger from soft humanity because it uses it as kindling, just like the first flame does, but that’s not linked to humanity either.
>>739250808You have proven yourself to know fuck all about subtext. No one should listen to anything you say because you are not mentally qualified to do so.
>>739217848Why a Chloranthy Ring
>>739218762>moonlight is feminine so gwnydolin will be raised as a girlWouldn't this imply that Gwynevere would have been raised as a boy then, if sunlight is masculine?
>>739217848Whomst the fuck was Lloyd
>>739251073Darkmoon is feminine, not moonlight.
>>739250808>Hollowing scales with luck in DS3, so luck is inherently dark souls linked?Yes.
>>739250921>Michael zaki added a game mechanic one time, dropped that mechanic in all sequels, and never again hints at any link, BUT IT TOTALLY MEANS THEY’RE RELATEDThe other dude actually pointed out the chaos covenant uses humanity as its covenant item and it heals the spider lady, so yes, there is some link. Next time actually post something other game mechanics as proof. Because why do silver knights respawn? They’re not hollows, they should despawn, some times FS isn’t trying to send a message, sometimes it’s just a game mechanic because it’s a video game.
>>739251197Stop pretending to be someone else. Your writing is a dead giveaway.
>>739251180Alright, fair point. >>739250521Scaling by itself didn’t sell me, but the covenant stuff did.
>>739217848Zelda lorefags vs Souls lorefags, who's more mentally ill?
Any loremaster here?
>>739251274I’m not pretending to be anyone else. I’m calling you stupid for saying a game mechanic as the only proof is stupid, the other two dudes who reminded me that the chaos covenant used humanity as their covenant item and that luck IS inherently linked to humanity made solid points. Yes, you’re right, she probably spliced humanity in there, but you gave a crappy reason to believe that and got angry I didn’t remember a game mechanic from a game I haven’t played in years with weapons I never used.
>>739250791Funny thing is I'm a zoomer so I'm definitely younger than all these millennials pretending to be retarded gen A kids. If you're still entertained by From's stale ass storytelling, and if you're still excited for their new stuff after ER and NR, I genuinely just feel sorry for you
>>739251324At least From Software actually cares about Souls lore, even if you think it's shit. It's clear that Nintendo does not give the slightest fuck about the lore of Zelda games.
>>739251503>I genuinely feel sorry for you if you're still having fun in your 30's and 40'slmao, pic related is you
>>739251405Me.
>>739236871>>739240946>that literally only works on the GodsBlessed deals extra damage to Hollows, which is a very broad category. Occult deals extra damage to Humans. Which would make a excellent PVP centric upgrade path, if Faith wasn't a bad upgrade path over standard. >>739246497Its suppose to be a little funny even in DS1>Way of the White under Allfather Lloyd>Eventually rediscover Undead>Make one and send it to a pilgrimage towards Nito
>>739251612Nintendo actually published a lore book and is maintaining a timeline, while FromSoft doesn't care. Is DS2 even canon? We'll never know.
>>739251324Souls is worse. Zelda fags dont have hundreds of youtubers spouting fanfic taken as gospel, and if they do its not nearly as loud.
>>739251484>you gave a crappy reason to believe thatNo, you just can't subtext. That's your obstacle to overcome, not mine.
>>739251762lol
>>739251750DS2 is canon but it was specifically written in a way that everything that happens in it is completely irrelevant to everything that happens in the other games because the writers were too afraid of stepping on Miyazaki's toes.
>>739251642Some people are easily entertained
>>739251784I’m sorry anon, my autism is not as great as yours and I don’t recall game mechanics from a game I haven’t played in years with weapons I never used. You showed me, I admitted I was wrong when good proof was shown(not screeching about subtext about text I don’t recall), and I’m happy to move on. The fact that you can’t admit you should have done a better job of showing it like the other two did is your own cross to bear.
>>739252064I'm amazed you didn't figure this out when you picked up the large flame ember and asked yourself, "What's different about this to the chaos ember".
>>739217848>first game had this tragic atmosphere to it because the world was going through an apocalyptic event and was about to end for good>your "epic" quest was not to save it, but to just preserve it a little longer>sequels retconned all that by saying nothing really mattered because the flame just comes back after a few centuries anyway.
>>739251675Can gods and humans breed with each other?
>>739252226Anon, I played this game years ago. I don’t recall everything, I don’t remember everything. I’m just human. Cool, I missed something. I even asked to be proven wrong in my second message, because I know I don’t know everything. Do you recall everything? Would you think it’s valid if someone obnoxiously pestered you saying “you don’t recall dex doesn’t scale cast speed in DS2, but is scaled by faith/att/int because you can recite the prayers/spells faster? Are you a troglodyte?!” No, because that’s retarded, why should you remember random crap from games. And once again, that chaos scaling thing only happened in 1, it’s not hinted at in any other game.
>>739252541>>sequels retconned all that by saying nothing really mattered because the flame just comes back after a few centuries anywayWrong
>>739220665That was a fun post, thanks anon.
>>739217848Yeah this was established as early as Dark Souls 1 if you ever cared enough to pay attention to anything.
>>739251001Symbolic of him giving the pygyms Filianore. She's associated with grass and stamina restoration in other items
>>739246497The darksign is literally a curse. Dark Souls 3 spells it out.>Malformed black armor of the Ringed Knights. The armor of early men was forged in the Abyss, and betrays a smidgen of life.>For this reason the gods cast a seal of fire upon such armor, and those who possessed them.>The hood of the Ringed Knights.>These knights don Abyss-tainted black cloth, with layer upon layer hiding their eyes.>This was nothing less than an attempt to reveal that which the seal of fire has occluded, a subtle defiance of the gods' wishes.Literally states that the darksign was put on early men by the gods and that its meant to subjugate them. It could not be any clearer.
>>739217848There was nothing "good or evil' about what Gwyn was trying to do, he made a decision to try and prolong the age of fire and did everything towards that goal. quit being a child
>>739222825>Some random YouTuber that I hatewatch like a retard also said what you said so I'm dismissing youEasily the worst demographic on /v/ by a very wide margin.
>>739252541Lothric was suppose to link the fireHe didn't, so the world spiral into getting even more fucked as "time is convoluted" really started making things closer and closer to the primal state.Shit gets so fucked the ashes of the previous linkers started reviving in the dimness of the twilight, and they fucked off, leaving even more nameless people of unknown history to revive into the fading age.
>>739253209Subjugating humans isn't a curse, plus within the game, NPCs talk of the 'undead curse', as in immortality is the curse.
>>739249370200th post best post
>>739253289He enslaved humans and bound their humanity to the fire
Does anyone here instantly hide spam posts when they pop up? I love pointing out how I go about ignoring these attention faggots.
>>739251324>the lorefags themselves100% souls, so many grifting niggers it isn't even real, it'd be less insulting if they weren't retarded and actually got things correct and didn't just constantly steal from eachother then bitch on twitter about it>the lore itselfzelda, the "timeline" was the worst thing to ever happen to the series, its so clearly hamfisted in and doesn't work nor add anything to the games
>>739225653>One other strange notion that comes up a lot is this idea that Gwyn, his family, and the inhabitants of Anor Londo are somehow a different race from humanity, even though we literally see him turn hollowHe's not turning hollow dipshit he's just reverting back to a pigmy
>>739227969Are you actually implying that Anor Londo was purposely built as a ritual sacrifice?That makes no sense based on what we know Gwyn has knowledge of.
>>739228120>An official direct sequel and primary numbered installment doesn't have valid lore because I don't like it>It's literally a fabrication and doesn't countThe Souls games are a cycle of dark and fire. No autistic fit will change this. You cannot refute it without outright rejecting facts.
>>739246662Kaathe the untrustworthy serpent who hangs round in the abyss with guys who look like skellingtons, steal people's humanity and advocates murdering peopleLmao
>>739253376The darksign is how Gwyn subjugates humans. Dark Souls 1 makes it clear that the darksign is what causes people to become "undead". Dark Souls 3 makes it clear that Gwyn and the Gods put a "ring of fire" in men at a very early stage in their history and that said "ring of fire" is meant subjugate them and discourage defiance. Ergo, Gwyn created the "undead curse" that is prevalent in DS1 and 3. If you want to call it something else, fine, the Gods obviously chose that name for propaganda reasons to obscure their involvement in it and are actively spreading lies that linking the fire will "cure" the undead curse and allow undeads to become humans again in DS1.
>>739253830>The Souls games are a cycle of dark and fireThere never has been a cycle, retard.We are still in the exact same age of fire at the end of ds3
>>739253830Dark Souls 2 is not canon. Sorry you had to find out this way.
>>739222872Where did you get that idea?
>>739222872>throwing other people into the fire until there were barely any leftHe never did this.The gods used humans through propaganda. Not through active killing or burning.
>>739223206What? He fought against stagnation, and sent himself to his death to prolong the high quality of life his family had, but also basically everyone else too
>>739254193Wrong
>>739222872>throwing other people into the fireThis never happened. The gods still pretends to be good rulers you fucking retard.
>>739226608And what about all the humans everywhere else? Did he just position floodgates all over
>>739254825>Did he just position floodgates all overYes, there is one on Oolacile as well
>>739228354Oolacile and New Londo are fucking awful, and there are shitloads of human kingdoms and cultures existing up until and into the time frame of the game, which is already deep in a stage of rot
It’s too easy to parry his attacks so I forgive him :)
>>739254929Damn got lucky positioning them next to abyssal hellholes then
>>739226252This?
the curse of mortality really sucks man. I want to be a purposeless immortal for all time
>>739217848I know everyone thinks their headcanon is best, but there's no need to call each other the R word. grow up.
Why did Aldrich eat Gwyndolin ass first?
>>739258007Wouldn't you?
>>739253830>The Souls games are a cycle of dark and fire. Shart Souls 2 nonsense is fanfiction>>739232609>They revisited the idea of Vendrick with Godfrey / Hoarah Loux in that Vendrick was a king who valued physical strength above all else.Deranged. Vendrick not one time mentions physical Strength, nor fights bare handed with sumo moves. Shart Spuls 2 lil faggots are so desperate for every bit of acknowledgement that it's honestly pathetic.Vendrick was a bad character written as a strategic mastermind that magically united and conquered the land of the 4 Kings but that somehow failed to see through Nashandra, who happens to have a fucking cursed painting, and for no reason manages to lose control of his castle to her wife that should have no authority whatsoever.Godfrey is a barbarian with such strength that imbibed grace without even flinching, and become Lord in service of Marika.The two characters couldn't be further from each other>The Owl has echoes of Vendrick as well, a giant bearded man who guides the player character,This is fucking hilariousYeah they both have beards damn you cracked the code. What about handler Walter and Gerhman? Adoptive daddy issue bosses that turn on you if you don't pick the basic ending, totally like Vendrick, right? Or maybe not, because all those games have recurring themes Dark Souls 2 misses.>>739219434>Nothing about that is new.False. Blood linking souls and blood rituals to merge them is literally an established practice in Dark Souls 3 because of studies around New Londo Undead Blobs. The Dragon Research and embedding the curse within the First Flame to create the Age of Hollows are actually completely new. Also whenever Dark Souls 3 brings back institutions or things from Dark Souls 1, those evolved and adapted through the passage of time.>>739238231>I mean we get a live preview of what the age of dark would be like in DS3 in the dark firelink shrine after champion gundyr. No you don't. That's bullshit
>>739225653>One other strange notion that comes up a lot is this idea that Gwyn, his family, and the inhabitants of Anor Londo are somehow a different race from humanity, even though we literally see him turn hollow. I have no idea how this idea started, maybe it's because the concept of godhood is really fluid in these games and the whole, make enemies bigger than the player thing.Lol did you just skip half the lore?
>>739217848I wouldn't say he was evil, just selfish at the cost of the normal cycle of the world. This was apparant even in DS 1 if your illiterate ass chose to read
>>739228354You're leaving out the fact that that Oolacile is the one textbook example as to why the Dark is hostile to humanity as well. It's just that it's innate to them and more powerful than the gods are you trying to give it righteousness. Every walking Man in the setting of DS1 has a giant sign on their forehead that says "I can destroy everything you love" and they don't even know it. Humanity are unwitting agents of the apocalypse.
>>739251132The uncle of Gwyn and god of hierarchies. He is the one that established the hierarchy between Gods and Man when Gwyn used the flame to build civilization via the Way of the White. He fucked off from Anor Londo along with most Gods and established himself firmly in Thorolund which became the seat of the Way of the White, becoming even more proficient in fighting the undead (so it's safe to say that Lloyd hated the entire Undead curse thing). This is established in DS1. I'm personally avoiding any DS3 additions to the best of my knowledge
>>739253469Humanity is evil by way of them being innately be the tools of civilization's destruction.
>>739260426But there is a cycle of death and rebirth that is supposed to happen. DS 1 shows what happens when that cycle is purposefully paused.
I think imagination is a great thing and this discussion in of itself isn't bad but honestly when it comes to these stories these people really don't give a fuck to write anything beyond what you see in front of you, the king is the king, the castle is just a castle for you to fight the guy in.
>>739252554>>739252554Not that anon but there is zero examples of Man + God interbreeding. I'm going to say no. There is however Man + Dragon interbreeding. Though this isn't even through sexual means but more magical.
>>739217848He's been cartoonish evil since the first game
>>739260513The "pause" here is sort of a myth within a myth. It presages an end (entropy), but the rebirth to come after that is mostly a myth by the people who wish to end civilization as they know it. It has never been shown the case until future games solidified it for some reason. It is the very nature as to why it's so offensive to Gods, even those who aren't worshipped or have no place in hierarchies and why they see Man as deceitful creatures.
>When you realize that all of Souls is just "Le western empires fall" which is why it resonates with doomers so much.>the age of dark is just a metaphor for the literal dark age.
>>739260647I think entropy is an incorrect way to describe it. Its not very entropic if it's part of a system.
is there an in lore reason you can't see Quelana normally?
>>739260748It's part of the flame, perhaps its most strongest component but not intrinsically from it as it is its own thing entirely unlike most things the Flame gave way to.
Hollows represent being woke and escaping the cycle of death and disparity.Which is why I head canon them as being black crackheads.
>>739260748the first flame is very similar to the big bang. when our own "flame" goes out there is basically nothing but void
>>739259194Cope n seethe 3fag
>>739260748time basically has an entropic function within it, in that it provides the arrow of time. entropy is in all systems.
>>739260513>>739260647>>739260748>>739260817>>739260858The way I see it is that the flame created the world and time and all that jazz, but is also destined to submit to dark. We fear death because we don't remember where we're going.
>>739260757Quelana isn't human being that she is a daughter of Izalith. She devised a pyromancy to cloak herself from Humanity/Undead so they won't hunt her down or bother her like what Salaman did. Though there is an aspect of guilt and cowardice disguised as "self-exile" to her.
>>739222825Mine's about 60% stuff I found on my own, 20% stuff I read on /v/ and 20% random bullshit from other sources including lore youtubers (but I like the gimmick ones that just show random shit you'd never pay attention to like the fact that if you stop and listen the fat priestesses in DS3 with spiky clubs actually say coherent prayers before casting).I don't engage into these overly deep headcanon discussions and just talk about what I know well since I read it myself otherwise I'll just get confused tripping over wiki screenshots and all that.
so the flame is basically just action and dark is entropy.
>>739260989Yes, the Flame represents the ingenuity and desire to create civilization via a Promethean Fire. It's just that in Dark Souls, it isn't humanity that uses it, it's Gods. Humanity are more like the devils that seek to thwart it.
>>739261182>>739261182All the lore you need is discussed over the years on here if you lurked long enough and discern what is more sound and what isn't. Soulstubers are downstream of lurking here.
>>739261212I like how humanity is displayed as this creeping dark force when it just seeks to gobble everything up, and suppressing it is what causes it to lash out. I kind of see it like the "will to power" except it's more like "the will to make everything one."
Gwyn was right.
Locust Preacher btfo Gwyn btw.Fear not the dark.
>>739261385It's because Man most of the time, does not know or cannot know that what lurks inside their souls is the element of ending everything. Man in Dark Souls are not "fully in charge" of their own destinies, whether it's to serve the Flame or the Dark. You never *really* see the Age of Dark come about, it's a myth. Once the Age of Fire goes out, everything is done. That is why the Gods are terrified and fight against it to their last breaths and then some. The whole "preserving of power structure" is just a theory but it only talks of the political angle rather than the metaphysical aspect of Dark Souls.
>>739238231>I mean we get a live preview of what the age of dark would be like in DS3 in the dark firelink shrine after champion gundyr. Headcanon>I guess maybe it wasn't a "real" darknessIt was Abyssal corruption
>>739226319Which arguably makes it worse with that in mind. And if 3 is anything to go by at the endgame where the realities are gradually compressing on each other towards the new kiln, boy did he make a bad call.
>>739260736Nigga, Age of Dark is the Dark Age. That's just how English works. A Board Game is also a game of boards.
>>739261389Should've been the final boss since he's the one that held out gave the most to fight against the Dark. Gwyn Prime would've been a cool bossfight seeing as how he has more purpose than the players who are unstoppable demons.
>>739259741Not sure how anyone could visit that cursed place, see Manus and what happened to the populace and not believe it's a bad thing
>>739260535>Not that anon but there is zero examples of Man + God interbreeding. I'm going to say noSo Gwynevere is just a cock tease?
>>739261884The Gwynevere you meet in DS1 is an illusion made by the trap, anon.
>>739260858it's it kinda the opposite? in DS3 the Dreg Heap basically acts as a singularity more similar to the big crunch. an overlap of time and space at one point. don't really know what the implications of that was meant to be, though.
>>739218879There sure is, demon.
>>739261919And the Gwynevere absorbed by Aldrich?
>>739260535>Not that anon but there is zero examples of Man + God interbreeding.Besides Lothric himself being son of Human King and Queen of Lothric who is Gwyneviere, Irithyllians are specifically human-God descendants
>>739261524>Gwyn gives 99.9999999% of his power to the Flame>umm why are you so weak????
>>739261919Yes, which is why the real Gwyneviere became Queen of Lothric and bred with Oceiros
>>739261995>AldrichHe ate Gywndolin (the trap) not Gwynevere (the Princess of Sunlight.
>>739262127Shit, my brain is terrible with names, damn you Gwyn for attaching shit to your name
>>739259741Oolacile happened because they fucked with the Abyss.You leave it alone and it leaves you alone.The Abyss only goes berserk when it's suppressed.
>>739262193The Abyss is not a neutral agent, it's also alluring and tempts Man to destroy everything.
>>739217848Everyone with power is evil and everyone without power is just.
>>739217848Yes, but only in order to prevent dark souls 2 from happening. It's a shame he failed.
>>739262231It's maybe not neutral but it's not entirely malicious.It just wants humans to go back to the dark, that's why it made the locusts in DS3 too, and they're making it sound pretty nice for humans that want a good rest.They also seem to imply that the only reason fucked up monsters even show up is because of the flame.
>>739261919We have portraits of her in Anor Londo.Gwynevere is an illusion but she looks exactly the same as the real one.Gwyndolin might gave her a bit more cleavage though
>>739262062I totally forgot about that DS3 addition, lmao. Then what I posted was wrong then. Yeah, Gwynevere fucked alot of dudes. If we're going by DS3, she also got raped.
>>739261639Realities aren't collapsing. It's the flame pulling everything to itself. Like a black hole.
>>739217848He was a monarch doing everything in his power to cling to power. In his greed and fear he cursed man, life, death and reality itself. Yes he was a piece of shit, but mostly cause he failed. Also Gwindolin and Seath. Yeah, he WAS evil.
>>739262368The Flame is way too convenient of a scapegoat for the Dark to seduce Man into revolting against it. The Dark being "better for Man" is a myth. It's always been a myth and the games never go out of their way to make it be objectively the better choice. The bias only shows because you're always roleplaying as a Killer of Everything.
>>739262426>If we're going by DS3, she also got rapedBy?
>>739262579Oceiros when he went crazy to produce another child, that child being Ocelotte.
>>739262359Kek
>>739262359I’m sorry Gwyn I take back all the parries bro I didn’t know
>>739262359GWYN-SAMA, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>739217848To be fair, the first game implied that Gwyn was a selfish bastard, DS3 just goes further.Biggest problem with DaS3 lore is how they try to pretend the Abyss isn't a problem.
>>739217848They literally established this in Dark Souls 1.
>>739262359I did not know....Gwyn, my lord. I KNEEL
>>739262359brb killing Gwyn again for his attempted crimes
There won't be games set in the Age of Dark because nothing exists within it. Man got played into supporting the demise of everything. In here the title Dark Souls is a double entendre.
>>739262685Gwyn is one of the more selfless gods in DS1. It's DS3 that really went 100%, nuh-uh he's just a normal villain.
>>739262567I mean yeah, we're lead to be biased against it, but it does make some sense.They talk of how only shadows hurt people, and shadows only appear when light is contrasted by the dark.In the Abyss, there's no light so there's no shadows.Can't be worse than the current state anyway.
>>739262862>because nothing exists within it.0 sources to back that up.100 sources saying the exact opposite.
>>739262967>Can't be worse than the current state anyway.Anon, it's literally nothing. Throwing the baby with the bathwater type of mentality.
>stub toe>Why doth thine Flame cursed us so?
>>739261639>boy did he make a bad callHe allowed untold civilization to rise and flourish throughout the millenia.If you haven't noticed, Miyazaki is HEAVILY inspired by George Martin, especially "Dying of the Light." The struggle against the Abyss is doomed to fail, but it's still necessary not to give up.
>>739262942He's the most selfless (relative to what we know), he willing sacrifices himself for his family
bros Souls lore really is cool as fuck. Perfect degree of doomerism without feeling like it isn't saying something. Can't wait for Miyazaki's next game. I really do believe only good times are ahead.
>>739262520>cling to powerNot for him though, he sacrificed himself for his people (and everyone else that was tailgating off the good times)Dying for ones family is ultimately massively sympathetic, if not outright nobleEven if misguided and selfish still
>>739263553I wouldn't even say its doomer. Its about struggling onwards when everything is falling apart and not giving in. It's pretty much an opposite of doomerism, it's stoic perseverance
Morally gray is when I'm directly responsible for everything going to pot in the setting and it gets so bad that the third game has a whole DLC dedicated to my oppressive attempts to keep my rule up and my refusal to stop poking the fucking bear.
>>739218719>purged New Londo because they still believed the prophecy of the Dark Lord and developed lifedrainNew Londo was flooded because the retards in charge and their knights fell for the Dark meme out of greed, not the entire city. It was done to protect everyone else from the Darkwraiths.
>>739251073>Tomboy GwynevereNow THAT is something I'd like to see
>>739262862>Age of Dark because nothing exists within itThat's not true. It will be nothing like the Age of Fire, possibly be similar to the Age of Ancients, possible be akin to a neverending deep sea which Dark Souls 3 alludes to, or possibly and age dominated by solely by men with all the magic and other races such as giants, gods, demigods and demons going extinct, but there will still be life and it will someday end as well to make room for something different.
The Way of White manufacturing undead en masse to spam them at Lordran in hopes that one of them will not be shitty and fullfill the "prophecy" is both hilarious and pathetic. I wonder if Petrus, Rhea and her knights were "made" undead by the way of white, and what the process of becoming undead even is.
>>739264842Can that be levied at Gwyn though? Does the way of the white even exist before he goes and torches himself?
>>739218879Your parents will use your real name when they bury your corpse.
>>739264842man, that's just your speculation. they didn't manufacture anything. they just identified those already afflicted and sent them on the prophecy. sure, with Leeroy they trying to get him to accomplish their own goals, but he was a high ranking WoW before becoming undead, so is that really untoward?
>>739264063This theme is only true for people who believe in the Flame and try to keep it afloat whatever means necessary, to the point of madness. By actively playing the game, you are actually punishing the people who persevere by turning the wheel of time against them.
>>739264842The Way of the White becoming more militant to tighten its bureaucracy more due to the sheer high fatality rate of their pilgrimages. It's one of the many aspects of the Dark Souls world, how people and institutions cope in failure. Even the hope of "I have to restart everything because it'll be better than this" is a cope in the game. It's the strongest cope in the series.
>>retards in this thread arguing that the age of dark in the Dark Souls Trilogy would actually be good for human beings.Morons, all of you. No fire = no warmth, light, heat, etc. Which means ultimately no energy at all. No energy means death, simple as that. The Age of Fire is absolutely worth continuing.
>>739264517> or possibly and age dominated by solely by men with all the magic and other races such as giants, gods, demigods and demons going extinct, but there will still be life and it will someday end as well to make room for something different.That's an in-game myth meant to embrace the doom of all things.
>>739265681The theme applies to hollowing, seen through many NPCs. It's even a core mechanic of the series supposed difficulty to try and try againAnd even if you're on the side that the dark is good and want to end it, you're still progressing to take that shot in the dark even when you don't know what will come of itThe idea of not giving in is rife
>>739265864It's because the game is heavily biased against the Age of Fire and Gods. I think that's why people thing Age of Dark = the better option when in reality everything is just stuck between a rock and a hard place and that there is no " actual freedom" from the forces that entangles one's destinies.
>>739265990The hollowing is a byproduct of the events taking place and it's governed as both a flaw and boon in the Age of Fire. It's not an innately human thing, as the Gods also give up and walk away from their duties while other stay. The hollowing is not pro-perseverance but in a macro-sense, pro-Flame. The pilgrimage to Anor Londo is also a myth to keep humanity going lest they get consumed by the Dark. The whole "you hollow out when you stop playing" is a thing Soultubers made up. You also fast track people's demise and cut short their will to live when you play so the analogy was always moot.
>>739266229What? A lot of NPCs hollow or vanish when they lose any purpose.Also what the fuck are you shilling the dark to me for, i think it's retarded personally but how does any of that refute the point that you're still fighting to roll the dice on something in the hope for a better tomorrowTotal opposite of doomerism
>>739265864That is the endpoint analysis I also got from trying to understand Dark Souls lore on my own. The Age of Fire is flawed but the Age of Dark is also lying and more seductive.
>>739265075That's unclear, but I don't think so. It's stated that the Way of White was at some point led by Gwyn's uncle, Lloyd, but by DS3 he was ousted as a fraud and his worship stopped. So it's unclear who the Way of White even worship anymore in DS3, it's not Lloyd, but I don't think it's Gwyn either. Shira in the Ringed City asks you to name the true God before talking to you, implying that Gwyn's name has largely been forgotten by the time DS3 happens. If the Way of White worshipped him in DS3 you would think his name would be widespread. So I doubt that Gwyn made them because they would remember the name of their creator if they still remember Lloyd, who is older than Gwyn, in DS3. Maybe Lloyd tried to erase Gwyn's name and declared himself as the "All Father" for that reason.
>>739266360Because it's using the Pandoran version of hope here rather than strictly hope as a building force, it's also used as a seduction to destroy. Both the FLAME and the DARK are sources of hope, not only for Man but Gods as well. The Gods in their own ways strive and persevere much like Man does but they do not get to be reborn on death and are much more vulnerable to the Dark from Man. THAT'S the point. The Gods are POWERLESS against the Dark but they still fight to preserve everything they have built to do so, burying themselves in reasearch and uncanny allies in a bid to survive it. The Gods want to be the MASTERS of nature, not to be swallowed by it.
>>739266643The Way of the White becoming that way is meant to show that they are a long shadow from their ways, corrupted by Man, casting out the more older followers of God into the Painted World. It became more "Man"-like but that's neither a good nor bad thing (the gods they worshipped becoming more and more flawed like Caitha). This further splits the organization when Sulyvhan crossed the threshold further by literally imprisoning gods in a bid for a lust for control.
>>739266653Isn't that perspective proving my point moreso? Even outside the players agency and personal perspective both gods and men are driven by hope in the face of uncertainty and dangerIt is noble to not give in for all parties involved, regardless of if the outcome is good or bad, everyone is looking for some light (or dark) at the end of the proverbial tunnelAgain not doomerism, but stoicism and struggle>>739266643I mean it doesn't make much sense for them to exist concurrently with an active Gwyn. If they're sending undead in droves to see if one links the flame, it's surely because Gwyns kindling of it is starting to show cracks
>>739267202>Isn't that perspective proving my point moreso? Even outside the players agency and personal perspective both gods and men are driven by hope in the face of uncertainty and dangerI'm arguing on the larger point that the Dark is a malefic force rather than a neutral one with Man's best interests in mind, going as far as to say that the Age of Fire is actually worthy of being preserved over it despite its many flaws and why, beyond that of blind obedience it years in the hearts of both Man and God in the setting. The Flame and the Dark is a flawed duality, both sides are clearly not of equal measure. The Flame IS Mankind.
>>739235763and you have a soul of cum faggot
>>739267424it yearns*
>/v/ - Gwyn Did Nothing Wrong
>>739235832So when they say "Don't you dare go hollow" they mean "Don't you dare get AIDS" Are you mentally challenged?
>>739267424I know what you're saying anon, I do agree as I've said with that point that at least there is provable good in the flame despite everything, and I understand why someone might have hope in the darkThis reply chain stemmed from someone saying>Perfect degree of doomerismMy whole point has been I don't think either side is doomerism, I think it's the opposite. It's about a glimmer of hope being enough to keep one foot in front of the other, no matter your eventual choice
>>739267542kek
>>739266010Fair enough that the Age of Fire and the Gods are cast in a negative light at least some of the time in these games, but at the end of the day it still seems pretty clear to me that the end of flame equals the end of everything. The shit you encounter in the Abyss under Oolacile and the dark void under New Londo make it pretty clear that the Dark is not good for humans.>>739266379>>Lying and more SeductiveWell yeah, it's why Kaathe and others like him have defenders.
>>739267939>Well yeah, it's why Kaathe and others like him have defenders.>nah bro me being able to suck the humanities out of your body is good for you bro trust me
>>739217848This was revealed in Dark Souls 1.
>>739217848
>>739266643>>739266983I'm guessing since the gods are immortal, Lloyd took over after Gwyn was hollowed, and his takeover was the first domino that lead to their fall figuratively.
>>739270359Gwyn literally just asked for the Gods to stick together and help civilization move onward against the Dark and to abandon Man. They all fucking left instead and made their own little domains what a bunch of fucking retards.
>>739217848Dark Souls 3 is unironically kicking my ass... I've only just gotten past the Dancer but it's taken so many more attempts for bosses than I had to do in the other souls games and demon souls. I don't know if I fucked myself with stats or if I fell for the strength weapon meme or what.
>>739270359>since the gods are immortal???
>>739270456and not to abandon Man*I wonder if Gwyn is even aware inside the Kiln how empty Anor Londo is.
>>739270483Not that anon but the gods are long-lived, I think that's what anon meant by immortal. They're definitely not unkillable.
>>739217848Dark Souls started and ended with Dark Souls 1. Dark Souls 2 is a spinoff and Dark Souls 3 is "What if Bloodborne was in Dark Souls"I hate that the game lost its dark fantasy elements after the 1st game and just went with Bloodborne body horrror
>>739270359>>739270505I don't remember, was gwyndolin the only god who actually followed the plan?
>>739270619Yes. The ugly son keeping things together in the shining beautiful city and being the most loyal to the end is poetic. In such a way, Gwyn raising him to be more effeminate made him more powerful with his talent with the Dark Moon. It was harsh but fair in the long run.
Why would you ever think the dark is the way to go when it leads into legit bullshit like Manus and not a proper human dominated civilization
>>739270619>>739270786>YesScratch that. I don't think there was a "plan" other than don't fucking abandon your posts and job. Gwyndolin just took up the mantle from his own volition. This is where Lloyd comes in and declares himself the new "Allfather" with which Gwyndolin cannot actually contest because he's busy guarding Anor Londo and his dad's memorial tomb.
>>739270898New Londo was a proper human dominated civilization. Same goes for Oolacile. They all shit the bed eventually because of the Dark's temptation.
>>739270576The Bloodborne influence on DS3 is merely aesthetic, thoughbeit.
>>739270898Because God and the Church is le bad or something.
>>739267939The shit i encountered in the Kiln of the First Flame made it clear that Fire isn't good for humans either.
>>739271360The Kiln of the First Flame is in its current state because fire is FADING!
>>739271360It's the best thing to happen to Man actually. There are no Man in the Kiln so I don't know what you're talking about. All the Black Knights are gods that died being loyal to Gwyn that their spirits still guard all over the Kiln.
>>739264517>dominated by solely by men with all the magic and other races such as giants, gods, demigods and demons going extinctYeah, because the corrupted, mindless creatures born from the Dark will absolutely kill everything. Might even kill each other like the Darkwraiths do against Hollows for scraps of humanity.
>>739271618Dark Souls 3 has it so the Silver Knights are loyal to the Cathedral to the Deep with no explanation whatsoever. It's fucking nuts how DS3 fucking contradicted most of the lore.
Everyone forgets there's an alternative to letting the fire die, and that is to usurp the flame and ushering in the true Age of Men/Hollows.
>>739264517The Age of Dark will be like Oolacile but on a global scale. But at least we stuck it to Gwyn and his biggoted patriarchal rule, so yaaaaaayyy...
>>739271749Nobody wants that. Scratch that, it's actually worse because how easily Man gets tempted by the Dark. The one saving Grace of the gods was that they are disconnected from the Dark so they cannot be seduced by it.
>>739271727No there's actually different Silver Knights in Irythill and Anor Londo. The ones in the former location are not corrupted and have normal blood while the ones before Aldrich have black blood/corrupted eyes.
>>739271814How so? It seems like the best outcome in the end. If the flame dies the abyss devours everything, and even if you try to light the fire it will die one day, hell you can barely light the fire in DS3 if you try to go for that ending. The only proper conclusion of Dark Souls is to let the true form of men inherit the world from the dead gods. Besides the Hollows of Londor have a functiona kingdom and Church.
>>739271913Because Pontiff Sulayvhan already tried that. He is what happens when you inextricably unite the Flame's powers with that of a Dark Soul (Man). They become more evil and power hungry than anything the Gods ever did.
>>739219008because of him being groomed by and feminized by his father. how do you not get it?
>>739239432its not. its just basic mythological writing that appears in real life mythology as well. not everybody has the same perverted sullied mind that you do where they see things that arent there.
>>739217848Gwyn was always the embodiment of cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
I never got why Gwyn decided to incinerate himself in order to prolong a world he would no longer even get to live in, I always took him as an extremely vain character desperate to retain control over the world so it always seemed strange to me that he was willing to go with the seemingly selfless action of burning himself alive just so that his subjects could continue living on in the world he created
>>739218762You really are the pinnacle of evil for saying that
>>739251073no. it was just something gwyn made up to justify hiding gwyndolin because of the fact that gwyndolin was born deformed and he couldnt have his son and heir be a deformed snakeman
>>739271987To be fair he tried to dabble with the profaned flame and that shit is just trouble as far as I remember.
>>739272071The conclusion here is that he's not as vain as you thought he was.
>>739271727The Cathedral of the Deep followed the Way of White (Gwyn's religion) before Aldrich, and the Silver Knights are still at the service of the Anor Londo gods, it's just that their last remaining master (Gwyndolin) is too busy being devoured.>Why don't they help himThey're dumb soldiers, they might not even be sentient anymore.
>>739271913If the flame dies then dark comes for an age, but eventually Fire will return anew. Dark Souls is an Eastern game about cycles. The decay is caused by trying to extend the natural cycle. The world will be a decent place during the ages of Fire as long as there's not a second Gwyn.
>>739272071Because he was supposed to be a tragic hero
>>739272152This entire thread is literally about disproving the cycle and that it doesn't actually exist. There IS NO provable cycle to exist.
>>739272071He was an asshole to humans in general that's why most people think he is evil but for the rest he was selfless and sacrificing himself to keep the Age of Fire from ending. Not every Gwyn's follower was evil, think of Shira from the Ringed City or the 4 knights.
>>739272115The Profaned Flame is literally an "Abyss" type of Flame. As in it is of Dark origin and look at what it does. You can also learn that it is an "unfading fire" due to it being of Dark. It drives Man to literal madness and be insatiable megalomaniacs.
>>739272152But wasn't the whole point of usurping the flame to literally end the cycle, symbolized by the dark sign in the sky turning white? The cycle keeps going if you let the fire die in the betrayal ending as the Firekeeper herself hints.>>739272338And also the fact that Sulyvann was a corvid from the Painted World.
>>739217848Like literally ever other souls/borne/sekiro/ring game he was a old man desperately holding onto the past fucking over the future generations in the process.The exact same shit that's happened IRL with the baby boomers, and that's not just a USA problem, Japan and Korea the baby boomers have also not only stolen the wealth but also the political power of the younger generations, it's probably of phenomenon that has occurred in every 1st world country
>>739272412The "cycle" that people misunderstand is not a "cycle" as in cyclical. You are merely told it's a cycle from DARK-aligned sources. There is no proof within the game that it's a cycle at all. What they actually refer to is the the fact that the Flame is dying which is true. The whole cycle part is a myth based around the Flame withering away. In other words, it's a COPE.
>>739272242Every sympathetic NPC in Dark Souls is assoaciated with Gwyn and the age of fire:>Solaire>Andre>The fire keepers>Sigmeyer/Siegward>Gough>Smithing giant
>>739220708>>739220845>>739220907>>739220989739221053739221139739221139739221148739221181739221267739221567739221728739221828739222616739223619739223635What was deleted?
>>739272242The only "sin" that Gwyn ever gets knocked around for is him cursing humanity. That's it. In every other setting that is seen as evil but given the stakes of how the world operates in Dark Souls, it was a pragmatic move at the very least.
>>739272512Yeah but you can't deny there's a sense of urgency in DS3. You know it's bad when you literally have to raise failed ash rejects who tried to link the flame and got burned by it instead of using the normal undead. Seems to point to a world that is getting tired of the Age of Fire.
>>739272530Gwyndolin as well since he tasks you in exacting justice in his stead and for the sake of others via the Darkmoon Covenant.
>>739272512nta but from my understanding it is that the flame is cyclical, but time is not. the flame always returns no matter what. its implied at the end of DS3 in one of the endings that the flame always returns.>one day tiny Flames will dance across the Darkness, like Embers Linked by Lords past
>>739272658This is where the perseverance part comes into play. It's a bleak setting where the world seems to fight back but the strivance against the Dark is the overall theme of the series, not its acceptance.
>>739272530>>739272701Dusk too? She isn't human at least according to her concept art, but the closest we got to an elf race in Dark Souls but I assume that's related ot the gods.
>>739272530indeed, but they are naive, idealistic and have been lied to and/or duped by the distortion of mythological lore
>>739272757>>739272757Oolacile is a human civilization iirc so it's safe to say that Dusk is human.
>>739272745Oh I agree with that. I don't get the ones who actually prefer the End of Flame ending. It feels like you have fought the entire series just to let it all get swallowed by the Abyss, hence why the somber music if you show the eyes to the Firekeeper and the whole feeling that you are betraying everyone.
>>739267542The more you think about it, the more this becomes more true.
>>739272757>She isn't human at least according to her concept artwhere does it say that? never heard of this
>>739262862>There won't be games set in the Age of Dark because nothing exists within it. Man got played into supporting the demise of everything.No. The age of dark is rapture for every being that has a shard of the dark soul. The massive pool of dark in the Ringed City is made of humans who have exited their corporeal bodies. Sometimes, dark phantoms pop up from it like shades do when they invade your world. That's the end state of man.
>>739272947>>739272947Not him but in the concept art, Dusk had long ears.
>>739264517>but there will still be lifeThere will be no life because fire is life and all fire is fated to fade out.
>>739273054those arent her ears, anon... it the crown of dusk
>>739272947It doesn't say it but she has elf ears in her concept art for some reason. Kind of a let down that the DS engine didn't allow for good looking characters. If she looked according to the concept art she would have been hot.
>>739273141Zoom in more or >>739273142This is different in-game, where she just has normal human ears.
>>739273141No, try to look at it again. It's not the crown. The pic I posted is bigger >>739273142 so it's more noticeable.
>>739273054>>739273141>>739273142oh sorry its more clear now in the second image. i guess those are kind of like elf ears. im really glad they didnt include this, honestly. its quite trite and cheap to include elves in shit. i always quite enjoy that she looks a little bit haggard. its something i enjoyed about their games where everyone looks like of homely and fucked up
>>739273190It's because the engine didn't allow for that level of customization sadly.
>>739266653>The Gods want to be the MASTERS of nature, not to be swallowed by it.Beautifully put.
>>739272439That's the surface level. The deeper level is that they were right.
>>739273142Dusk was definitely meant to be an Elf at one point, it would explain Oolacile's weird nature magic. Kind of a copout to change it
>>739273273At least we got the talking mushroom.
>>739273227I hear you but at the same time she was from the past and her land and Oolacile were kind of magical with the golden sorceries and all. Gave her that out of place feel and somehow she felt like a semi parody of Zelda from OOT.
>>739273273i think its kind of a copout to think you have to include elves just because le magic. humans in real life are interesting enough to not require an additional race to explain more mystical modes of being.
>>739273317>they were still around by the time Oolacile got completely swallowed by the AbyssThey were such chads. Fuck those Ghrus for killing them off, TGD.
>>739262359Gwyn-sama…I didn’t know
>>739262359He wanted to save us from the funny hitboxes.
>>739262359i know totally understand the utter tragedy and melancholy of his theme. lord gwyn... forgive...me...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bqLGebDRIY
>>739265864How will the Age of Dark impact Lordran’s tax policy and where the citizens defecate?
>>739274075dont you have more children to groom, gwynfag?
>>739252541>sequels retconned all that by saying nothing really mattered because the flame just comes back after a few centuries anyway.No. The current and singular Age of Fire has been continuously going since the first flame spontaneously burst into life during the Age of Grey.The Age of Dark and total extinction of the FF is an ever-looming threat, but has not ever actually happened... Yet. (Apart from the sealed-off pocket dimension in DS3) The Dark endings of 1 and 2 are made non-canon by the existence of their sequels.
>>739259194Hey don't be a retard so loudly next time, yeah?
>>739218719darkstalker ass post
>>739272960Yeah and then to be eaten by locusts.
>>739271807>The Age of Dark will be like Oolacile but on a global scaleYou mean peaceful humanities floating around and never hurting anybody?Manus got mad because that snake fucker Kaathe manipulated the townspeople.Marvelous Chester>Believe it or not, Oolacile has brought the Abyss upon itself. Fooled by that toothy serpent, they upturned the grave of primeval man, and incited his ornery wrath. What could they have been thinking? But to you and I, it's all ancient history. You have to ask yourself. Does it really matter? Heh heh heh...Hawkeye Gough>I suspect thou hast taken a gander at it, but the Dark of the Abyss, which swallowed poor Artorias, threatens to devour our entire land of Oolacile. It seems that this dire fate is unavoidable. But, seduced by a Dark serpent or no, they awoke that thing themselves, and drove it mad... One's demise is always one's own making."
>>739275310>(Apart from the sealed-off pocket dimension in DS3There is no pocket dimension in DS3.The dark firelink shrine is in the past when the fire nearly went out.
>>739275721Grey sky firelink is a pocket dimension, but dark is in the past for sure. Even when the sky is in eclipse mode, grey sky firelink is still grey.
