People joke about this a lot but what's the actual consensus on the Anor Londo archers? Is this bad design or just a clever way to challenge the player?
>>739219236I think what's a more interesting thing to discuss is how this game made so many people believe it was worth putting up with.
>>739219236Unreasonable difficulty spike
Not as bad as they were on release version
>>739219236Anor Londo archers are great. Punishes players that haven't bothered figuring out the game's systems while heavily rewarding mastery of parrying.
>>739219236One hit/mistake kills are generally bad design but they didn't overuse them and honestly they weren't that bad once you knew to be wary of them.
>>739219236unique levels where the terrain is part of the challenge > open world slop
>>739219236Consider the following, they were nerfed for pc release so hard that they can't even hit playerBut, pcfags still have memories of "epic running past archers moment"What does it tell us about pc dark souls fanbase?
>>739219236It's a game with many challenges from a time when games were just dialogue after dialogue with no real challenge. A player used to that would find it bad design
Consensus: there is no consensus. For my money, only subhumans complain about a fucking video game.
>>739219236On release day? Not even that bad. Once you figured out the timing, it was a joke to get the pillar, and from there, you just picked a side, killed the dude, then the other dude. There was much worse in that game on release.Nowadays? A joke.
>>739219236It's good the first time if you went in blind because it creates tension and there's a moment where you feel rewarded when you know how to play that part properly, but afterwards it's just tedious to deal with, so I think it's kinda lazy, but it's fine considering the game is near it's peak with O&S and Anor Londo is overall the best level in the game
niggers tongue my anus
>>739219236>Slam wall with sword>Die falling off the cliff
>>739219236Dark Slop 1 is FULL of bad design choices like this but it's okay because 2011 tourists played it first and nostalgia goggles are one hell of a drug
>>739219236This is going to trigger the discord sisters.
Anor Londo is built to make you control the camera manually and to exploit geometry, leading to O&S. 7th gen kiddies, of course, were too retarded to get that.
>>739219236The toxic spitter niggers were the worst to deal with, since anti-toxic meds weren't in great supply. New Londo niggers not dropping soulsThe curse bullshit where you had to grind purging stones or dredge up a guide on how toBlighttown being a stuttering mess that proved this game had no QAFag Ring making it impossible to lock onMajority of the covenants did nothing
>>739220391Lightning drakes are the fucking worst. Too tanky to fight at low level when you need to run through the valley, and THAT ONE ABSOLUTE BASTARD you know which one. Silver Archers got nothing on that fucker.
>>739219236its just another little challenge to go through on one of the linear sections of bonfire progression. It's whatever.If the stupid rolling cats in the garden were mandatory people would complain about that instead
>>739219236this is peak design compared to some attacks in later games>oh the boss is charging up his ultra attack, you need o be standing at a 30 degree angle from where he is facing when he releases it or you die.. LOL U DIDNT KNOW AND NOW UR DED
>>739219236BLOCK NIGGER
its not even that hard, if you run to the one on the right the one on the left wont shoot you, then you can either parry it or poise through his attacks and out trade him, or blokc and hope he leeps off the ledge
>>739219302You never mastered a skill in your life. You don't even have the foundation in any discipline.
>>739220008why was dark souls 1 more jank than demon souls
I don't think this part was any harder than the catwalk with the painting guardians. The archer on the left doesn't really matter at all.
I'm a big fan of memorable encounters made from otherwise unremarkable enemy types. Too many designers are afraid of frustrating the player, but unorthodox or "unfair" fights can be surprising and interesting to overcome and lead to more fun overall.
>>739220658You NEVER have to fight the lightning drakes for ANY rational reason>b-b-bbb-bbbu-but-butbutbuuuuut muh RTSRMake a real build you queer
>>739220869just Troondai Scamco things
>>739219236It was during a time when we were all new to the Souls formula and how these games worked. DeS and DaS were also getting a ton of grassroots support and discussion. Its kind of a you had to be there thing. In hindsight they are not nearly as difficult as their legend has made them out to be but back then I can assure you I definitely had trouble with them as did millions of players. I do not think it was bad design at all. It was a very clever way to challenge players and look at how even today we are discussing it thanks to your thread. How many enemy encounters in any game are as iconic as this one? I'd be willing to bet not many.
>>739219236Original knights and archers to fend off the dragons. Now the dragons are no more, and the front doors are heavily guarded. They're still on posts looking to deter intruders. I guess they're focused on that spot because they know now it's a weak spot for sneaking in, because somebody probably just went through there (Siegmeyer). Ironically it's also a good choke point to defend, just snipe them off the ledge.Like how many Silver Knight Archers did Gwyn used to have, from the intro, the great war? The remaining ones are still around defending their homebase.
It's total bullshit, and that's good. Games need a nice ebb and flow of difficulty, with some agonizing shit like this in the mix. It's what makes them memorable. A game with nothing but uncontroversial, so called 'good' design ends up boring and bland.
>>739221640>rtsrI never even found that ring, someone had to show me it existed. As for>no reason to fightHow about I fucking hate them and they need to die
I'm doing Eigong in Nine Sols and boy do I wish to go back to easy shit like dark souls archers.
>>739219236there's no way in hell anyone managed to beat this without being spoiled
>>739219509>It's a game with many challenges from a time when games were just dialogue after dialogue with no real challengeYeah. People talk about how overhyped Dark Souls was as being super hard, but it's easy to say that now. Vast majority of popular games from 5th gen up to that point were braindead easy. Once games went 3D, difficulty took a backseat to exploration and story telling. Dark Souls brought challenge back into the mainstream.
>>739219236I heard the left archer was in a spot where it could shoot you in the back while you fight the one on the right. It kinda made sense to kill the left one first since it had more room to work with.Now you just ignore him which is lame.
>>739221640They're the only source of dragon scales outside of dragon covenant PvP
>>739219236I love them, edge of your seat shit
>>739219236It's bad game design, and also the reason why DS2 is so bad. Imagine Anor Londo Archers but instead of being isolated to one location every area had their own version of this, it's just obnoxious.
The only enemies I don't like dealing with in the DS trilogy are those fucking flame salamanders with perfect tracking in DS2 I just run past both of them to get the key. The ones in the Sir Alonne area are fine they just shoot fire and have way less health.
>>739222743I just spam roll out of fear it took me like 3 triesI had more trouble with the brain gargoyles desu
>>739219236The original was unreasonable and sadistic. They patched it a couple times to make it better.
>>739222880don't talk to me or my son ever again
>>739219463I was wondering whats the big deal with these archers when i played it on pc for the first time. I just ran and timed my rolls to dodge the arrows ezpez.
>>739222913I'd just rush through the gargoyles on my path to dying to the archers for the 25th time
>>739222992You don't even need to roll on pc
>>739219236im not sure if they were nerfed but when i played ds1 i found this area ludicrously overblown. If not for all the shitposting i wouldnt have even remembered it as something particulary notable, just an interesting segment. I hardly ever actually get hit by the archers
>>739222762You got it backwards. If you charge left, he'll still be halfway down the slope when you get to him and right will snipe you if you close. Left can't do anything to assist right.
>>739219236It's fine. It punished people who weren't learning the mechanics but was otherwise a decent challenge. And you got a bonfire shortly after it alongside the ability to fast travel not much later, so it wasn't something you had to repeat a ton. Troll as fuck gank spot that I enjoyed too. Third Anal London Archer RP got me so much hate mail.
>>739219236>can literally just run past them up the slope>at the top you can just blockGod tier pleb filter
>>739219236it was slightly annoying but I didnt think it was unfair. think I died once from rolling off on accident.
The part of the ash filled capital in elden ring with the three root dragons is far far more bullshit, this is one of the highlights in dark souls 1 to me.
They're complete horseshit, along with Capra Demon. Here you have a game that gives you multiple different character classes and dozens ways to play the game and approach encounters. But these two encounters say>Oh, you didn't create a heavy armor shield user? Teehee, whoopsie! Get fucked, you will only get past this by randomly getting lucky in the enemy's RNG animations.Monumentally bad game design.>hurr Havel's Ring plus leaf shield whatever the fuckThere is no way you would ever in a million years know about these without guides telling you beforehand. And even then, they only give you the bare minimum to get past these enemies reliably.
>>739223481That bit's purely optional tho unless you're going for the legendary talismans cheevo
>>739223164I meant to say that the left archer got its position changed in some patch/update to make the section easierUnless I'm wrong about that too and that's okay :3
You literally just run up to them, what is this meme
>>739219302This. Dark Souls is NOT a hard game. I said it. It's not difficult. It's simply sadistically punishing. Navigating the game's combat, maneuvering, spacing, etc is all piss easy. It's just that if you make a single momentary mistake you die and have to waste 5-10 minutes running back to where you were.All you have to do is memorize enemy attack animation timings because they all have whack ass nonsensical wind-ups that release without any tell. It's pure rote memorization. You can stand in place and kill the final boss as long as you've drilled your shield's active parry frames into your head.
>>739219302Marketing and game journos
>>739223969>forced to adapt your approach for encounters>considers this bad game designstupid "class" players.
>>739219236Extremely based. Wish there was more stuff like them. Sen's fortress is the best level in the game.
>>739219236All you do is flip through the arrows until you get to the black knight on the right side, then you parry him.
>>739222749>Once games went 3D, difficulty took a backseat to exploration and story telling. Dark Souls brought challenge back into the mainstream.Nigga shut the fuck up. 3D gaming was doing great right up until 7th gen, specifically 2008. THAT'S when gaming companies (after being injected with bailout money from the federal government via hedge funds) started rapidly dumbing everything down in order to appeal to the absolute most braindead of normie masses. Dark Souls was a counterpoint to THAT specific era of gaming, not all of 3D gaming as a whole.
I hated the lightning gargoyles far more than the archers. Those spear chucking assholes were more of a pain.
>>739224196Yeah lemme just spend 10 hours farming XP and items to re-spec my character for two solitary encounters in the entire game.
>>739220008dark souls 1, demon’s souls and bloodborne are the only good ones
>>739222749That's bullshit, dark souls was very casual by action game standards at the time. Miyazaki relied a lot on bullshit like placing enemies behind corners you couldn't see them and other cheap tricks, but a lot of work was done by marketing team.Compare it to bayonetta where you couldn't even finish first level because of time limit, without fucking learning how game works
>>739223969Capra is mostly a problem for magefags, in which case: get fucked. Basically the entire rest of the game was easy mode for magetards anyway. Capra was a fight with multiple solutions, and its failure state was at the very beginning before you clear dogs with a bonfire not far away. Losing was barely punishing. While it's understandable to be frustrated in the moment due to repeated failures, it's very much shitter behavior to bitch about the fight years later after overcoming it and obtaining a better understanding of the game (presumably).Off the top of my head over 10 years after I last played the game:>can firebomb dogs>can sprint past up the stairs where dogs will follow faster, kill dogs, then 1v1 boss >can be fat tank manNot to mention the availability of plunging attacks.You just suck ass.
>>739224410You can also do the hydra first and get hidden body so you don't have to deal with the dogs. I doubt anyone ever did that on a first playthrough given the peculiarities of summoning Dusk. But that is technically a mage specific option that someone could theoretically stumble upon if they were so stuck on capra that they went and did everything else first.
>>739224534Oh, that never occurred to me. That's cheeky.
>>739219236Matthewmatosis complained that a bow and arrow tracked you in DS3, but I applied his same strategy of switching directions (before ever watching that video) for the anor londo archers and got btfo by tracking arrows. That was bullshit if you ask me.
>>739219236It's just one of those scenarios where you need to find a balance between "rushing in without thinking" and "hesitating too much"If you pay attention to the building structure you'll realize you can safely attack the archer on the right while behind a blindspot the one on the left can't hit you at, and all you have to do is just run when you hear an opening By this point the player has probably gotten comfortable with getting through challenges via having lots of healing, this is a challenge that can't be healed through. It's good
>>739224410Capra is not a huge deal if you're a heavy armor shield user. If you pick anything else, you're completely fucked and reliant on the dogs' RNG to not stunlock or corner you immediately after traversing the fog wall.>Oh whatever dude you just have to do this and this and thisYeah, yeah I know, you faggot. After hundreds of hours of playing the game with dozens of playthroughs you can cheese Capra or know exactly what to do. I'm talking about first time players you retarded autistic fuck.
>>739219386>while heavily rewarding mastery of parrying.You can parry arrows?
>>739224904Yeah totally dude. That's what makes that encounter easy. Nevermind that at the time barely anyone knew you could do that and the timing is insane and only a practical option after you've beaten the game multiple times.
>>739224831I was also thinking about first time players, shitlord. You have more than just one means of beating the encounter, and new players will be aware of all the ones I listed. Sprinting/dodging past to get to the stairs to kite dogs was how I beat it in my first playthrough. Yeah, it was frustrating and took me multiple tries, but you're blowing it completely out of proportion by acting like you can ONLY do it in a reasonable number of attempts if you cheese with heavy armor and high poise, and that's why I'm calling you a shitter with a shitter's mentality.
>>739224975Oh okay cool so you admit you eventually got lucky with the dogs' opening RNG in order to get to the stairs.
>>739225042The dogs weren't instantly on top of you as you were phasing in. You had the opportunity to act. Why are you acting like you're phasing through into an immediate stunlock 99 times out of 100?
>>739224831I figured out that you could run up those stairs to that spot in the back where capra can't get you on my own in my first playthrough. I'd even go so far as to say that is the way the devs intended most people to kill off the dogs.
>>739224831This guy is the reason every game now uses yellow paint
>>739225324>smiley facekek
>>739225324Now add two dogs that prevent you from getting to the stairs.
>>739219236Its one of those things that's hard the first time and the so easy every time you do it after. The first time I did Sens Fortress it seemed impossible. The second and every subsequent time it's easy and takes like 5 minutes. Haven't played it in over 10 years but I'm sure I could easily run through it right now
>>739225560>prevent you from getting to the stairs.lmao
>>739225560
>>739219236It's romhack-tier enemy placement, but for some reason alot of people seem to think that's a good thing. In order for it to be clever it would have to not look noticeably jank in every interaction you have with them.
>>739225180The dogs (coming DOWN the stairs you need to go to) are on you within 2 seconds, and Capra Demon typically begins an attack animation 0.75 to 1 second after your traversal animation finishes. Especially after the first time you die to him, he spawns CLOSER to the fog wall on all subsequent attempts. Get fucked dude. FromSoft cultists will tell you it's actually a good thing that their testicles were crushed in a vice, and that it never actually hurt at all to begin with.
>>739219236the latter.
>>739225815You make me feel like some hardcore chad of steel for beating this game SL1 and speedrunning it without glitches in under 2 hours.
>>739225815Yes the need for quick response is what keeps the fight from being a complete joke. Git gud.>Fromsoft cultistsI didn't even continue the series after DaS 1
>>739225932Sick. I'm guessing that was back in 2013 and it was the very first time you played the game, looked up no guides beforehand, and didn't reference the wiki?
>>739219236I think it's just bad. The sequence in op's pic where you just need to dodge the arrows is fine but the part where you're expected to get past one of them on a stupidly narrow ledge is just goofy shit.
>>739226013I've beaten the game multiple times. I don't think you're capable of thinking in terms beyond the present moment.
>>739219236The archer on the right always looked like it has no right being there. The ledge he's standing on is far too thin to do a lot of fighting on, I don't blame those who get annoyed when they're pushed off.
Souls games are the epitome of the sunk cost fallacy. Niggas be smashing their head against a wall for 200 hours and then tell you it doesn't hurt and you're a pussy for thinking so while the blood pours out of their eye sockets.
>remastered just made it so you can get to the right one and bait him to run off the ledge far more easilyGay
>>739226064I'm thinking in terms of my first runthrough of the game. It wasn't that bad of a fight, and running/dodging past the dogs to win didn't take me a gorillion tries. Capra is the ultimate shitter litmus because it outs people like you who think it's an impossible fight for new players and are still seething about it a decade and a half later. If your first thought is, "I need to respec to tank build cheese," and whining about the single challenging aspect present instead of something like, "I need to get better at maneuvering," you're a shitter who doesn't improve because there's zero reflection on failures.
>>739226234Alright Freud, what's my favorite game?
>>739226340>Freud out of nowhere
>>739226019So every game has to be easy on your first playthrough or it's shit?
>>739219236it's good designDS1 did a good job on challenges that aren't just a strong enemy or 20 enemies. it had lots of environmental hazards and gimmicks in areas like this, sen's fortress and new londo ruinsbut the thing with this kind of design is that it filters retards and normalfags who just want fast paced action. that's why the ones that don't have these things like DS3 and ER are the most popular ones with the normalfags
>>739225815The entirety of Capra Demon as a fight is dictated by what the dogs do in the first 5 seconds. It pretty much is just luck. Sure, once you get away from the dogs/Capra, then the fights piss easy. But that's the point, isn't it? It's only the first 5 seconds of the boss fight that is in any way a concern. You aren't going to be able to talk to Fromdrones, fren. Just say your piece, give as much info as possible, and don't respond to retards.
>>739219236I thought it was the only part with a clever Level design in the gam- in the serie.
>>739226454The point isn't that anyone is disagreeing with the first section of the fight being the most crucial. That's already been agreed on. The point is that he's making it into a way bigger issue than it ought to be. Read the whole chain again before talking about who's retarded.
>>739219236this exact part made me fully understand japanese people have a peak on their intellectual capabilities
>>739220913>this!Games like this jsut require actual effort and patern recognition. The game mechanics offer several options to get passed. Roll, Run, Block (if you have the stamina), or shoot back. It's not complete BS, there are outs. You just need to figure it out.
The Capra fight is a bit shit because the stairway is clearly visible and in the few seconds you have to take in the situation if you move towards the staircase or even generally immediately to the left you're fucked since Capra and the dogs are on you then and there.The trick was to move to the right and the circle around them real quick once they do their initial flailing.
>>739226461>>739226507Good morning saar.
>>739220854stinky ESL>>739219302You just have to take your time. It was only hard for people who ran through it.
>>739226492>point isn't that anyone is disagreeing with the first section of the fight being the most crucial.There's three posts that are dismissing what anon is saying. >making it into a way bigger issue than it ought to be.Every single response includes the caveat about the dogs, which means it is a problem. One that should be solved. Arguing about the severity of it is redundant, as it IS a problem.
The main reason why capra is a shit fight is the camera. The problem isn't the area is too small, it's that from's dogshit camera isn't capable of taking it into account.
>>739219302fpbp
>>739226454But I can't! I fucking hate Fromdrones and want to rub their stupid faces in their mess like disobedient animals!
Lore threads are so much more fun than retards persuading others that the game they like is actually shit.
>>739225560>prevent you from getting to the stairs.
>>739226697reddit
>>739226649Dismissing him because all he's been doing is going on about how the fight is basically a ridiculous challenge for new players that demands cheesing because there's some amount of RNG to overcome while in reality, it's not that bad.>a problem to be solvedIn what manner? If you mean as a challenge to the fight, obviously. If you mean as an issue of balance, I'm arguing that it's fine as it is since the player is capable of overcoming it within a reasonable amount of time on a first run.>Arguing about the severity of it is redundant, as it IS a problem.You're retarded. Most of the game is intended to not be entirely fair or feel that way. There being an aspect of unfairness or perceived unfairness is the norm for the games, and anyone who can't handle that shouldn't continue playing anyway. That being the case, severity is everything. Doing it properly gives the player a bigger sense of accomplishment for beating unfair odds. Doing it improperly is where it becomes an issue and simply unfun. This argument essentially revolves around which of the two this fight is. Shut the fuck up if you're not even going to pay attention or think.
>>739220008Pretty much. Every fromsoft game that has come out since has been a direct improvement in most aspects>but muh world design!One good aspect doesn't fix a dozen bad ones. The only people who like DS1 are the ones whose first souls game was DS1, and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Going back to play DS1 for the first time after playing everything that came after is like trying to play gen 1 monster hunter after playing 4U, GU, and Sunbreak. Nobody likes Gen 1. There's a reason everyone skips it and goes straight to Freedom Unite
>>739226581i have downs
>>739226854>Most of the game is intended to not be entirely fair or feel that way. There being an aspect of unfairness or perceived unfairness is the norm for the games, and anyone who can't handle that shouldn't continue playing anyway. I love it when Fromfucks finally and begrudgingly admit it's bullshit but then start coping and calling others pussies for not tolerating bullshit.
>>739226854>>739227000>Okay so it is total bullshit. But you know what? LIFE is total bullshit too!
>>739227000>>739227037>can't win an argument so resorts to worthless ad-hominem and strawmanning insteadIf you thought the game putting enemies in blind corners and having you fight multiple bosses at once was supposed to be "fair", I genuinely don't know how you manage to function
I figure if it's memorable and people talk about it many years later, it was fine to have it in the gameplenty good games out there in my past that I honestly can't remember much about anymore
>>739226854So you're advocating for Trial and Error?
>>739227000games aren't supposed to be fair, this has nothing to do with fromsoft. you should try playing more games that arent modern movie slops that constantly hold your hands
>>739227129Many games are trial and error. If you don't like it, don't play trial and error games. It's literally that shrimple, but apparently it makes people seethe.
>>739227178NOOOOOOOOOO I HAVE TO PLAY EVERY GAME TO NOT GET FOMO. EVERY GAME MUST BE ACCESSIBLE ENOUGH TO BE PLAYED BY EVERYONE
>trial and error is learning to use the stairs>skill is actually reaching them without relying on luck>many posters fail at step 2
>>739227130No, of course games should be fair. Not sure why you would proudly announce to the world that your time is worth nothing and you will put up with shitty ass games
>>739227238>of course games should be fairwhy?
>>739227279Because that's good game design
>>739227238No singleplayer game that's fun to play is going to be fair. It's aspects of unfairness (better movement, more HP, more damage, etc.) that let the game have an advantage over the player's adaptability, flexibility, and intellect, thereby creating a challenge leading to fun. So "fair" and "unfair" don't exist in this illusory binary state you retards seem to imagine them in.
>>739227178Trial and Error is just throwing yourself at the encounter until it just suddenly works. All those years ago people argued that Dark Souls 1 wasn't trial and error, and it was one of the reasons 2 got shit on. It was praised for being able to handle any encounter that could come up if you were cautious and paid close attention. It's why they put a bonfire in front of nearly every single boss in Elden Ring. You should check ER out, you'd love it. The player shouldn't have to run through the same level he cleared out 4, 5, or however many times purely because he lost the fight depending on how the first ten seconds played out that was well out of his control. Capra Demon isn't a good fight in any way, and the dogs are just one facet of it. No, he isn't hard. No, I didn't ragequit and throw my controller. It's just a bad encounter, plain and simple.
>>739227279kek
>>739219236At the time it was a cheeky way to kill the player because people were not used to playing these games. Two archers in current day fromsoft is like, straight up baby mode shit everyone can deal with. Elden Ring now has you dodging nukes and orbital laser strikes and 89 hit combos with 76 hit followups depending on where you're standing and your distance to the boss and it has input reading to punish you for healing and it input reads your casted spell so the enemy/boss can dodge immediately or attack through it and do 10 times more damage to you. They stepped it up a lot since the archers, for better or worse.(it's worse, turning these games into pseudo bullet hell was not the correct move)
>>739224096This is exactly the same gameplay as Super Mario Bros btw.
>>739227445>Trial and Error is just throwing yourself at the encounter until it just suddenly works
>>739227304>every coloring book needs to have barriers so you cannot color outside of the line. Can you not bowl?
>>739219236The Anor Londo archers are an amazing way to introduce the Silver Knight enemy type by making them seem highly competent and intelligent compared to most foes so far. They're only on your radar after they've got you stuck in a pincer trap between them and the lightning demons, and they can send you back down the ramp or off the roof entirely, and that's if they don't just outright kill you. The initial placement of the archer on the left also let him have an easier time immediately shooting at you even after you got up to the building itself. These are smart guys who are using their homefield advantage to the fullest.
>>739227445>>739227523Hit post on accident. Anyway, I don't care about what who said about what game and when. None of that shit is pertinent to our discussion. This is where I'm saying you guys are shitters:>because he lost the fight depending on how the first ten seconds played out that was well out of his control. It's not well out of your control. That's just a bad mindset, and it's the reason I'm calling you guys shitters. The dog RNG makes a minimal difference in most cases, and the dogs themselves are a challenge either failed or overcome by skill (or cheese). You can dislike the fight all you want, but the truth is, people are bootyblasted about Capra Demon because they're shit at evading in a game with a very forgiving iframe count.
>>739227368I don't think you understand what "fair" means dude. You seem to think it means "easy". Something can be extremely difficult but still fair.
>>739219236Not everyone knows this but on release day and until the very first patch on 360, there wasn't only two of these guys, there was a third
>>7392277170 critical thinking skills.
>>739227304how? you're just making statements without explaining yourselfwhat's wrong with a game being unfair? let's say a game pulled a bullshit move you couldn't possibly expect and you died, so what? you have infinite chances to retry and overcome that challenge
>>739227523You keep changing your argument. First it was “the fight is fine because it’s beatable”, then it became “Souls games are unfair on purpose”,then “trial and error is normal” and now suddenly it’s “actually it’s pure skill”? Because if the opening depends on reacting to chaotic dog behavior in a cramped room before the camera even stabilizes, then yes, there is an RNG/trial anderror component. Small RNG is still RNG. The point isn’t “the fight is impossible.” Nobody said that. So then how would you describe the dogs within Capra Demon? It certainly can't be trial and error by your definition, right? It would have to be something worse. Hm... maybe... luck? There’s a reason people remember the staircase, the doorway, the camera, and the dogs, not Capra's moveset. “You can overcome it” is not proof of good design. Players can overcome bad design all the time.
>>739227923you won the fanboys left a while ago
>>739227923Capra is a "think fast" fight that perfectly makes sense for what an enemy would try in the setting itself. It's a good introduction to quick ambushes and the value of poise, which mitigates how much and how often the dogs can stagger the Chosen Undead.
>>739227923I haven't changed my argument at all. Nothing I've said is mutually exclusive, no matter how you try to twist the meaning.>The fight is fine because it's beatableIn a reasonable amount of attempts*>Souls games are unfair on purposeYes, was this supposed to be a surprise? Did you need a text notification that the game with many instances of forced trial and error (dragon bridge, corner enemies, behind-boxes enemies, london archers, etc. etc.) wasn't intended to be completely fair? Perhaps we need a new warning label for people like you.>actually it’s pure skillYes, user error is why you die to dogs, and beating the dogs is because you overcame the unfair challenge posed to you. The whole fight is intended to be presented as "unfair" but it is entirely beatable by a new player. It's not like the devs accidentally put you in close quarters with 3 dogs and a boss with a big sword, not knowing that it wouldn't feel fair. It's a fight that forces the player into a new circumstance they need to adapt to, and I appreciate it for that value. Moreover, it's not an overly punishing loss since the bonfire isn't that far away, and you can unlock shortcuts that are even closer.>Small RNG is still RNG. Why make this argument? Who argued about there being no RNG? Any game with variable movesets has RNG. I said it wasn't a big deal because skill is more important. >It certainly can't be trial and error by your definitioThat was the Cambridge dictionary, not my own work.>There’s a reason people remember the staircase, the doorway, the camera, and the dogs, not Capra's moveset. Yes, they are as much the bossfight as Capra. It was an intentional design to make the environment your enemy as much as it was the adds and the boss. Do you think bosses can only be challenging with bigger numbers or flashy moves?If you're gonna be a condescending faggot, at least be right in what you're saying.
>>739228106the fights trash let it go
>>739228186Enjoy your loser's mentality
>>739227368Enemies having bigger numbers than you isn't necessarily unfair, and of course unfairness is a thing in games. You sound like a retard that's just going to argue semantics>>739227581That's a shitty analogy, you're dumb
>>739228106You're arguing against points I never made. I never said the fight was impossible or that the unfairness was accidenatl. Yes, the staircase, doorway, dogs, and cramped camera are "part of the boss."That's exactly why people criticize it.Compare it to fights people consistently praise like Artorias, Gael, Fume Knight, Messmer, and some other big boys.Those fights are difficult because the combat itself is engaging and readable under pressure.Capra's difficulty comes disproportionately from the first few seconds being messy and claustrophobic. Once you stabilize the encounter or kill the dogs, the fight basically collapses. That's why people remember "how to neutralize the room" instead of mastering Capra himself. And saying "Souls games are unfair on purpose" doesn't automatically make every unfair encounter good design. Bed of Chaos is unfair on purpose too. People still think it sucks.If you try to make the argument that BoC is akchsually good, I'll know you're just shitposting, and will accept your concession.
>>739224410Capra is a problem because of the camera going schizo in the tiny arena with the dogs cornering you. You can trivialize the fight if you know what's going on. The problem is that there's a good chance you won't
>>739228256naw nigga you got GOT.
>>739228106>unlock shortcuts that are even closerfor Capra demon? where?
>>739226868>demons souls terrible>wo long good>nightreign only mid>remnant 2 better than remnant 1>nu-lotf "good in the momentEven more but I'm tired of writing. Dogshit list, seriously
>>739228486>>wo long good>>remnant 2 better than remnant 1Both are true though
>>739228486my biggest complaint of Remnant 2 was the leveling. you know, the traits and how many trait points you got, and the scrap/iron costs of everything, and how fucking long it took to level up classes and how they locked abilities behind it. which is all kind of part of the same system.but 2 had much better bosses and dungeons. most bosses in FTA was really just ganks. but 2 had so many cool levels, like the spiral staircase dungeon? very kewlI guess I would have to agree with you because i played the shit out of FTA and i do want to go back, but i only got like 3 runs out of 2 and didnt even have the motivation to do the dlcs
>>739228673My biggest complain about remnant 2 is final boss, while not as terrible as elden beast(worst final boss in soullikes since Gwynn), it still was pretty terribleOutside of him, game was great
>>739219236They're genuinely bullshit, and I say this as someone who loves the game. The arrows deal high damage and track well. The knights are finnicky and will sometimes keep shooting you from close range when they should switch to melee. The runback is HORRIBLE, especially because most of it is just running through empty space. But the absolute worst of all is how the arrows CHEAT PHYSICS, you can walking towards the knight while holding your shield up, and you'll STILL get pushed at a 90 degree angle to the side and fall to your death. It's utter trash
>>739229118>final bossyeah, he sucked hardhe was the reason I didnt do an ironman run like I did in FTA.
>>739229202It's a fucking giant arrow retard, to take down a fucking dragon. Of course it has the momentum of a fucking truck. Shield might negate the damage but the force has to go somewhere. Ever played Billiard or Carrom? What happens if you knock a piece set up like in your gif against the wall? That's right, it's the fucking same exact angle you're being thrown off in the gif.
>>739229874Can you not see how getting pushed 90 degrees to the side instead of being pushed against the wall makes no fucking sense considering the direction the arrows are coming from? Can you not see how it's completely unfair? Stop trying to defend every janky dogshit mechanic, retard, you make me embarrassed to be a fan of the game
>>739219236SOUL
>>739219302dark souls is only as hard as you make it for yourself. Your playstyle and build is your difficulty slider.
>>739219236Memorable set piece, but it exposes the jankiness of DS1. First off, the Batwing Demons, which literally have “wing” in their name, cannot fly and will fall to their deaths trying to get to you on the buttresses because of the shitty collision detection. Then you have the brainless Silver Knights that aggressively fight you on that thin walkway and also fall to their deaths because of their shitty pathfinding AI.
>>739229202>>739230171you're turning INTO the wall, you ARE getting pushed directly backwards according to the angle you're facing which IS how force would be transmitted by an arrow fired at that angle into a shield held at that angle by a person standing at that angle, you clearly should've rolled under that one anyway
>>739231583actually noyoure assuming the arrow is hitting the shield directly in its facebut the arrow should have hit the person on their right side and that arrow would have pushed them into the wall.
>>739219236It's kino.
>>739223969Capra does not require heavy armour. Heavy armour just trivialises fight to point that the gimmick of having 2 dogs with the boss is non-existent. You can also just dodge them and fight them properly, but under stress of Capra also being there. Having enough poise to withstand 2 dog bites allows you to skip the part of fight that requires quick thinking and dodging/positioning skill.People get “required” and “completly negates the challange” confused. I guess cheat engine 1-hit kills on every enemy are required, because any other method requires more skill.
>>739219236memorable and janky. Memojanky if you might call it that
>>739220869Because Demon's Souls unlike all of the rehashes is designed around its limits. It doesn't try to have these large epic set pieces and miserably fail at them (except the red dragon.) It's humble and just deliberate about doing its own thing.
>>739219236It's one of the few parts of that awful game I actually liked.
