Not that the game wouldn't have been a shit version of Star Fox 64 anyway, but how did Shigeru Miyamoto fuck up game design 101 so badly as to force these unworkable motion inputs & tank controls on a Star Fox game? Controls are something that's meant to be an instant extension of your thoughts, not something you "master" like a fucking autist.
I replayed it again after 10 years and the only bad parts were with the hovercraft. Yeah it's worse than 64 in every way buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut it's not that bad and the controls didn't take too long to get re-accustomed to. Then again, I was good at using them 10 years ago and 100% the game so maybe I dug up ancient memories.
>>739268342>revisionismIt's a dog shit game. COPE.
>>739268449Nah it's not dog shit. But Star Fox Guard? The companion game? THAT'S dog shit. Like, REALLY bad.
>>739268342I feel like the only person on Earth willing to defend the hovercraft missions. Yeah, they're basically stupid "quiet time" and "exploration" which I'm normally against in games, but it's kind of funny how players normally complain when that stuff is NOT there (i.e. you're seen as weird if you think the exploration & pseudo-puzzles in Ninja Gaiden Black are stupid and the sequel made a good decision by getting rid of that stuff). But it's also kind of ballsy that they went "Okay, you want this shit? Fine, then master these QWOP-ass controls." It's a lame "modern game design" addition but with something actually interesting sprinkled on top.
>>739268117He didn't have someone who actually knew how to design games to reign his dumb ass in.
>>739268863>>739268472Basically the kind of people willing to defend this game are going to be obsessive arcade fans who like hyper-specific control schemes (and I mean actual all-around arcade fans, not people who got into Cave shmups through Touhou or rhythm games through stupid little online communities or whatever) HATE this kind of stuff, but it's still a 2016 game so of course it was going to have "quiet time". I like that the "quiet time" makes you master a control scheme instead of just being completely empty.>>739268342I don't think Zero is as good as SF64 but I would say in some ways it's better. If you learn the controls there are clear advantages to the motion targeting and SF64 didn't exactly age perfectly control-wise.>>739269102Miyamoto sucks now for other reasons but he absolutely knows how to design games.
>>739269228Even as far back as the N64 you had devs who were fighting with Miyamoto over basic things like the camera for a game. All of his game design knowledge is limited to 2D game design at best, he's out of his field for anything beyond the SNES.
>>739268342It's like a 6, which is really bad when SF64 is an 11 and Assault is a very lovely 7.
>>739268117hot take: people hate it along with command because they're playing on hardware not built for it
>>739268472Guard is a significantly better game than Zero, what are you on about?
>>739269480I hated Command as a kid because I was stupid. As an adult it's solid. Not great, but good. Wish the writing had more meat.
>>739269516It's a worse tower defense game than fucking Bloons Tower Defense 1. It has nothing going for it at all except for a level builder that literally didn't matter at all.
>>739269574I think you really underestimate how bad Bloons 1 is.
It sucks that the shitty helicopter got multiple levels in the main story while the actually fun new vehicle got stuck with two short bonus missions in the training mode.
>>739269480I'm playing it on Cemu and loving it. Even started using the supposedly "horrible, imprecise, only exists to force you to use the gamepad" in-game "switch to cockpit screen on the TV" button instead of the emulator "switch to gamepad" binding and it's fine. You really don't have to use the cockpit view that much, certainly not the way people describe it "YOU HAVE TO CONSTANTLY TWIST YOUR NECK BACK AND FORTH UNTIL YOUR HEAD FALLS OFF FUCK YOU MIYAMOTO" - usually the motion control is enough.>>739269462Maybe I'd have liked it more if I approached it as its own thing but Assault is terrible if you're actually looking for an experience similar to SF64. Zero is great for that. Even then, after a few years, clips still make it look mediocre. Like "wow this level is great" and it's just "what if that one stage in Sin & Punishment where you're flown around a fleet of battleships on a piece of debris were shitty?" - the level flow is all weird because these are clearly multiplayer maps repurposed for singleplayer.>>739269820Maybe there's a level I haven't unlocked yet but isn't the gyrocopter like, one level and a half if you include the gorilla robot one? And the full one still has an Arwing equivalent? Kinda nothing.
>>739269820I don't remember this thing at all.
>>739269462A 7 is too generous of a score for assault.
>>739269480Command was okay gameplay wise, it's just the story and writing were trash (though some of that was due to localization)
>>739270256Scores are fucking stupid. Zero is a good game the way the Sonic Adventure games are good games, except moreso because there's more games approximating them but there's really nothing else approximating Zero.
>>739270704I can believe that. The amount of haters of those games compared to how many units those games supposedly sold don't add up.
>>739270256If that's the case, then your precious Zero Sales deserves closer to a 3 or 4.
>>739271450Command just needed some on rails type battles instead of just being entirely all range mode save for missile chases.
>>739271554I laugh every time I see this reposted. Patch has become the Star Fox 4Chan boogeyman.
>>739271697>>739271554You are gay and retarded if you even know who these reddit furry freaks are but it's funny how it wasn't the cool Platinum game that got a newfound appreciation from "the fandom" but the boring lame one because it has epicsauce character interactions for people to write fanfics about or whatever
>>739269462I'll replay Zero a million more times before playing Assault 1 more time.
>>739268117Shigeru Miyamoto has not directed a game in damn near 30 years. He just kinda checks up on things and maybe throws out suggestions here and there. You cannot singularly blame him for Star Fox Zero's faults.
>>739274251So the alpha motion controls were actually Platinum's idea? Neat.
>>739274291no, blame these guysYugo HayashiYusuke Hashimoto
I skipped assault in my childhood somehow. I watched the first level on youtube and I hated everything I saw except the graphics which were peak gamecube nostalgia so that's nice. I'm biased against orchestral music in games so I won't shit on that.It made me realize 64's cinematics are so brief and straightforward you don't understand how much cinematic instinct it had that was lost in every game afterwards. 64 will never switch to a video cutscene because it can show you that same thing in gameplay or scripted game objects. 64 will never show you something lame and gay. 64 will never make you listen to shitty dialogue. 64 has top tier voice acting from performers who can't over-act so it can't be hammy. It seems to come from a strain of creators that made what they personally thought was cool and not what they thought kids would think is cool because they inherited a franchise for kids, which is the biggest difference in the world even in a game about cartoon animals. It somehow is less childish than it has any right to be.
The game was a last ditch effort to prove the Wii U gamepad was a good idea, and it turns out it was not.
>>739269480I hate command because it makes you do the same mission about a thousand times.
>>739274390It was, gamers are just retarded.
>>739269820yeah, what the fuck was that about? It was definitely planned to have stages, right?
>>739271076it's broadly a good game, and has awkward as fuck controls that aren't really very fun. Both of those can be true at the same time. It's like playing Okami on the Wii. It's still good, but the controls could sure be better.
>>739271554The fact you resort to accusing people with views you don't like as being a specific person is pathetic. Actually have stances on things you feel confident defending rather than just resorting to namecalling people. >>739273208Often they don't even defend assault itself but just the ideas it has or its potential whatever it means.
>>739274351>I skipped assault in my childhood somehow.Lucky you. The first level is also widely considered the best level in the game so that is already grim from you don't even like that lol. Assault seems nice until you see things in motion when you realize the animations are pretty bad. The physics of the characters especially feels weird in a bad way. You're too floaty in the arwing but too stiff on foot.
>>739274572Nah, that's like saying "God Hand is broadly a good game, but it should have Devil May Cry 3's camera & character controls" or "Silent Scope is broadly a good game, but should just have mouse and keyboard controls" or whatever. One valid criticism is the tutorial doesn't inform you that you can switch to cockpit view on the TV, but F-Zero GX doesn't tell you that you need to recalibrate your controller to make the game playable and it's still a great game.
>>739274470>I hate command because it makes you do the same mission about a thousand times.To be fair that's the expected star fox experience. Replaying levels for high scores or going through all the routes is a series staple.
>>739274737yes, but it's all range mode, instead of fun well crafted stages. The game is really just super dull and has nothing in it.
>>739274731Star fox zero has a button that recalibrate the reticle to the center of the screen so the action doesn't need to be paused as you want to reset the reticle. I really like shooters that let's you quickly reset your reticle to the middle and wish it was a feature in more games.
>>739274731there are certainly good games that are hampered by an awkward camera.That's just 3D games before the 7th gen, frankly. Lot of awkward cameras going on.
>>739268117Is there a mod for the controls or it's impossible without changing game design?
>>739274797I hear you. Star fox 2 did it better since it had time lapse in the all range levels that affect the overall enemy placement in lylat system so playing through the level fast is required. Command has a timer but how much time you spend in an action stage doesn't affect where enemies are on the map.
>>739274878It has coop mode which largely separates flying the arwing with independent aiming. To my knowledge gyro controls aren't an absolute must to best the game though I'd be really hard to play without them.
>>739274878You can play the game by pressing minus every time to put the cockpit view on the TV and somebody once defended this as a comparable experience of playing the game eons ago. I remember him to this day, everyone called him retarded. Was he? Who knows.
>>739268472Guard actually manages to accomplish what it set out to do. Zero couldn't even do that because it has a fucking identity crisis and wants to shove in a bunch of gimmicks and pace-killing "innovations" while wearing 64's skin and recycling the plot despite also wanting to tweak all dialogue to be slightly different and establishing the absolutely worthless storybit about Andross and the portals that went fucking nowhere.
>>739274848>Zero critics think God Hand of all things was "hampered by its camera" and it wasn't a fundamental part of the designNot that you're your average Nintendo fan since you at least admit there's good game design there, but I'm starting to think Nintendo fans are just fundamentally opposed to learning unique control systems that benefit the core mechanics, and the only reason more people don't defend this game is because barely anyone aside from Nintendo diehards holding on to a dying system played it when it came out (I didn't have a Wii U either, why bother for one game) and since Nintendo fans act like you raped their mother if you enjoy this game, it's basically become a faux pas to treat it as anything but a "guilty pleasure" at best for even people with decently varied taste. That and e-celebs + journos (whom /v/ types tend to agree with in terms of fundamental game design dogma, as much as they'll claim otherwise).
My personal ranking:6421ZeroAssaultAdventuresCommandI don't hate Command, but it's the most boring to replay.
>>739275162I wasn't talking about God Hand. Games in general could have slightly fucky cameras in those days. I've played Castlevania 64. I like Castlevania 64, incidentally.
>>739275201I'd rank adventures higher than assault since it felt like I got more bang for my buck in that title.
>>739275162Oh, and as for SF0, it's not strictly "the controls" that are bad.What's bad is that the TV reticle is intentionally slightly inaccurate, to specifically bait you into looking at the gamepad. It would be more accurate to say the game's interface is bad.
>>739275313Star fox zero has by far the highest firing rate in the series so it becomes a non issue if you can just use the stream of lasers you shoot as a reference to know where you're pointing and where to aim to shoot things.
>played coop with a friend>heavily all-range mode>big bosses love to waste time>Star Wolf fights were actually good>one of the shittiest Andross fights in the franchise>ONE ending>no alternate routes, any branching segment was actually just a standalone fight>Arcade mode and Challenge mode are treated like some big unlocks>the only other things are the amiibo skins which depending on how you play can barely be seen>no multiplayer of any kind, not even a 1v1 online modeI thought it was extremely mediocre
>>739275374it's just kind of needlessly fucky. Why can't the reticle on the top screen be more precise?Like, you can work around it, but why should you have to? Why did they design the game with an intentional handicap that I then have to work around?
>>739274839Yet people think that's "bad design".>>739274995I'm doing it and it's working fine so far.>>739275079>fucking identity crisis and wants to shove in a bunch of gimmicksYou guys more or less think motion controls are inherently a gimmick, maybe make an exception for one or two games that you'd look casual to dismiss due to their reputation. I was here when the Wii was recent.>and recycling the plot despite also wanting to tweak all dialogue to be slightly different and establishing the absolutely worthless storybit about Andross and the portals that went fucking nowhere.Actual mental illness to care about this. Star Fox lorefaggotry is really bizarre.>>739275248Well I specifically gave an example of a game where a camera often seen as "bad" is fundamental to the game design. I've not played Castlevania 64 either so I can't weigh in on that but in SF64's case.>>739275313How many times is that slight inaccuracy (haven't even noticed it yet and I've been playing for hours with just the TV cockpit mode) a huge issue to the point where the criticisms of "you need to break your freaking neck moving it back and forth" make any sense? I feel like everyone was already primed to think you need to do that shit (even I was at first) but really you don't.
>>739274897not that anon but I was actually surprised at how much I hated starfox 2 for having these bad all range levels. I played leaked roms back in the day and always assumed it was bad because it was unfinished. But no you just walk or fly in the base over and over and press buttons or shoot a core thing. I think this is the real reason it got cancelled. It was clearly made by really talented people so I'm headcanoning that miyamoto thought he could give them free reign, and when he really sat down with what they had he wasn't going to ship something that was boring and could damage the starfox IP on its second game. The explanation about the n64 being an imminent explosion in graphics never made sense to me because the game was done and people would buy 64 version anyway. Shame because starfox 2 had good ideas and great pixel art. Just wasted on bad direction.
>>739275429>played coop with a friendLike playing a beat-em-up co-op only. Not really a way to understand the mechanics on a deeper level & become personally accustomed to them.>heavily all-range modeYeah and it made it interesting.>Star Wolf fights were actually goodTrue>one of the shittiest Andross fights in the franchiseIt's fine; not like SF64 had an all-time classic final boss beyond presentation. Only the brain half was challenging.>ONE endingWho cares.>no alternate routes, any branching segment was actually just a standalone fightYeah, good, I wish SF64 was more linear.>Arcade mode and Challenge mode are treated like some big unlocksSF64 treated expert mode like a big unlock when it should've been there from the get-go. common issue.>the only other things are the amiibo skins which depending on how you play can barely be seenBlack Arwing plays differently.>no multiplayer of any kind, not even a 1v1 online mode>>739275432Valid I guess even if I've not noticed the differences yet while medaling, but is it really worth the fanbase treating it like Superman 64 over it? You already switched from "it's overall good, but the controls are bad" to "ok, it has this one issue". Again F-Zero GX has fucked controls by default until you recalibrate and it's just treated as something to get past.
>>739275605Star fox 2 demands you to efficiently solve puzzles and progress to the base core to destroy it. It throws various things your way since they're meant to waste your time as enemies and missiles target corneria so you have to go through them quickly or else you lose. The broader defend corneria objective pairs well with the all range levels and their objectives.
>>739275776>Star fox 2 demands you to efficiently solve puzzlesYou're really making me want to never, ever play SF2. Puzzles in action games are dog shit 99% of the time.
>>739275201are the SNES games actually good if you get past the dog shit framerate or treat it as a unique challenge? since I tried 1 and while I liked the level design Zero was immensely more fun immediately. I even tried to get into SF1 multiple times and it just never clicked.
>>739275773>but is it really worth the fanbase treating it like Superman 64 over it?no. It's broadly a good game, but the Wii U itself wasn't popular at the time, and gamers are fickle bastards.For that matter, Superman 64 isn't even really as bad as people say it is. Lacking, maybe.
>>739275927Yes. Personally o prefer both 1 and 2 over 64.
>>739275776Right but the player doesn't care what the designers were trying to do, it doesn't matter if some particular design goal was achieved if part of that plan is for the player to do something that's not fun. That doesn't explain why the all-range levels weren't good like 64's all range levels, or more conventionally the game could have some on rails levels and the difference between a good and bad on-time performance would be how fast you killed the boss.
>>739276015A lot of Wii U games got a decent second Wind on Switch, and SF0 unfortunately did not.I was always the guy saying "Mario 3D World is actually really good", to which a lot of people would reply "whatever, retard". Chances are they hadn't played it. It was the game with cat mario, instead of 64 2 or Galaxy 3, so of course it had to be bad.
>>739269952>Maybe I'd have liked it more if I approached it as its own thing but Assault is terrible if you're actually looking for an experience similar to SF64.Considering it's nothing like SF64 at all? Yeah. No fucking shit it's not a good SF64 2. Do you think Zelda 2 and Symphony of the Night are ass, too?>Zero is great for that.In what world? The enemy patterns and bosses are all way worse. They cut all the cool planets for the generic ones. The new zones are all the fucking same. It's a mediocre rail shooter with no unique charm or whimsy. Instead you get recycled SF2 content and ill fitting Playmobile robots alongside 64 designs.
>>739276015I wish gamers were fickle based on personal standards and not some sort of community dogma. Just the way many use the term "revisionism" when someone likes Zero is odd because it implies some kind of objective gaming quality canon defined by history.The TV cockpit thing is a valid complaint but I think it usually goes beyond that and into memes like "motion controls are inherently bad">>739276050I guess I'll go for them after I 100% Zero>>739276161Again, I doubt it's just the screen-switching that made people mad at Zero; many straight up think motion controls are inherently bad.
>>739275505>Star Fox lorefaggotry is really bizarre.I'm not the one who made a huge deal about it, it was Miyamoto. He said he wanted to "delve into the relationship between General Pepper and Andross" and how the portals were some crazy new thing.
>>739275927Good doesn't mean you'll like it. If you tried multiple times it's never going to work. Kind of like how metroid 2 is just too dated for me even though so many series fans say its their favorite because they played it close to release.
>>739276015>>739276161Please fuck off with this strawman shit. I bought this game at launch and had plenty of fun with Guard. People being underwhelmed by the game doesn't mean they didn't play it.
>>739275505>motion controls are inherently a gimmickThey were for the most part. Outside of aiming, what did shaking the Wii remote bring to games that didn't involve 1:1 motions like Wii Sports Resort or Skyward Sword?
>>739276234>Do you think Zelda 2 and Symphony of the Night are ass, too?No since they were good games in their own right.
>>739268117a switch port without the retarded gamepad gimmick would have saved it, but alas nintendo lacked the foresight
>>739269228>64 didn't she perfectly control wise Yes it fucking did, and you best not be bitching about using the c buttons plus joystick to do maneuvers because that is completely fine and a skill issue for retards
>>739276375You literally just admitted you were taking it as a rail shooter when it's not one. The fuck kind of turn around is this? It's a fun multiplayer death match game with an ok single player mode.
>>739276376No it wouldn't. You'd still have bad levels.
>>739276234The enemy patterns, kinda, but both 64 & Zero are more or less nothing in that regard compared to something like Sin & Punishment. I'm still having tons of fun with what's given in Zero. The motion targeting makes it fundamentally really interesting mechanically, and the way that synergizes with all-range mode levels makes for a REALLY unique experience. Really the movement in SF64 was more interesting than the level design too. Meanwhile the on-rails moments in Assault where you're on-foot riding on top of an arwing are boring as fuck and scream "this is a repurposed multiplayer map"; nothing feels that cheap in Zero.>>739276425>having to claw the controller is skill but basic motion control is... le bad!Have you actually tried going for serious score runs?
>>739276567>Have you actually tried going for serious score runs?Not him, but it's score attack is not fun. It becomes as boring as speedtrannying because you have to retry the levels a gorillion times until you get that one perfect run (i.e. tedious padding)
>>739276339The only people who played it were Nintendo diehards holding on to a dying system, i.e. people with extremely limited tastes. See that video from that Rerell or whatever guy that everyone points to as the ultimate Zero takedown - dude has the most boring Nintendo fan video game essay taste..>>739276376Genuinely if you think "no advantages to looking at the gamepad, make TV cockpit view exactly the same" would "fix" the game maybe you didn't try to get decent at it, or were primed by gamers to think you have to switch more than you do. >>739275374
>>739276567>Sin and PunishmentBitch I did not invite Sin & Punishment into this conversation. That ain't relevant.>But it's novel!Yeah. And not much fun to replay. Corneria 1, Sector a, Area 3 and Zoness are all pretty ass levels. It gets better from there, but very few stages are actually fun to replay. It's just neat the one time or if you wanna futz with the controls. It's like DMC4. Good mechanics alone don't make for an engaging game.
>>739276805I got my Wii U for free and like Star Fox, but ok. I guess I'm the virgin Nintendo brand loyalist for thinking it was boring and you're the chad gaming enthusiast for getting Miyamoto's genius artistic vision. Whatever, man.
I'm tired of the argument "you just didn't like it because you were shit at it"There's nothing wrong with that. If the game was fun I would play it until I wasn't shit at it.
>>739276468Fun is fairly subjective since fun can be found in even objectively bad games. As a multiplayer shooter assault is a below average shooter and is easily eclipsed by any other shooter at the time. Assault has no merits of its own that has it stand alongside the highly acclaimed GameCube titles. Even it's best parts just copied from 64.
>>739276618So what even is the appeal of SF64 then? Just seeing all the routes and moving on?>It becomes as boring as speedtrannyingMastering level designs is for trannies, not for chad gamers like us (who hate casuals by the way!)>(i.e. tedious padding)So engaging with level design is padding, and the audiovisuals are the "real content"?>>739276861I invited S&P because Star Fox in general is kinda not special in terms of enemy patterns compared to it & it's a game that would be recognizable to N64 fans. DMC4 has immensely more padding bullshit than Zero, there's no contest.I enjoyed replaying Sector A & especially Corneria - really I don't see how Corneria is bad at all. Area 3 is half-good. My view on Zoness is this >>739268863 though admittedly the Arwing version should've had better medals.>>739276958Miyamoto is very hit-and-miss. Zero was a hit.The actual complaint back in 2016 was "unplayable freaking controls!!!" and the complaints beyond that are basically post-hoc justification after people played it much later and went "what the fuck is wrong with you guys"
>>739277070>Fun is fairly subjectiveWhat, am I talking to a fucking robot? Yeah, no shit, dude.
>>739277047>I don't need to understand the basic rules of chess to tell it's a kusoge
>>739277354I'm saying using the word fun is not a talking point as fun doesn't mean good.
>>739277315>complaints beyond that are basically post-hoc justificationYou are desperately trying to convince people of an uncommon opinion while simultaneously saying that any criticism of the game that isn't a specific strawman argument is SECRETLY a bunch of lies and cope to cover for the embarrassment of getting hoodwinked by popular consensus.Do you not understand how retarded you sound?
>>739277407
>>739268117filtered
>>739269480TRVTH NVKE
>>739269952band aid for lack of skill on your part
>>739271076Good point, but I would actually say they are the same in that regard. Very special and unique games that nothing compares.
>>739277943Which part of my post are you referring to? Assault?>>739277543Strawman argument implies it's something I concocted myself and not just overwhelmingly the reason why the game is treated as an abomination.>getting hoodwinked by popular consensusNot what I said. Gamers mainly hated it for the controls. Is the level design as good as SF64? No, but Assault is already being treated as "secretly good all along" by many people despite having far worse level designs because it doesn't have the "motion controls are cancer" meme stigma attached to it. Is it IMPOSSIBLE to dislike the game based purely on the level design while disregarding popular opinion? Not really, but how common is it REALLY? I am actually arguing against popular consensus here more than I am against individual stand-out viewpoints.>>739277734Autism is when you like video games beyond epic meming online discourse.>>739277903Again, it's fine on Cemu.
>>739269952>And the full one still has an Arwing equivalent?Yeah, the Arwing version of Zoness is shit and Area 3 is a terrible level. It's a one-two punch that really sours people on the game.
>>739278028>Autism is when you like video games beyond epic meming online discourse.No, it's when you're incapable of understanding that people who aren't you exist and brush off every opinion that's not yours as being unable to understand or play the game. Jesus Christ, dude. Get a grip.
I liked that one mission where you were going super fucking fast into enemy territory.that was cool.there's a bunch of cool parts to zero, but the core of the game is rotten...
>>739278002Well, I haven't played the 3D Spark games yet nor the new Shadow game and I hear they have elements of what made the the Adventure games good... but even if those don't compare at least there's two Sonic Adventures.>>739278067Way more tolerable bullshit-to-core-appeal ratio than even something like Ninja Gaiden Black. Area still 3 has the cool Pigma fight.
>>739278212I like about half of the core levels, but that's not enough to make a good game in my eyes.
>>739278028Assault is often praised as being the only good star fox game that has aged well. So much so it's even been said to be the next natural step for the franchise be the perfect template for the future. This is still the narrative despite over 20 years later proving the opposite.
>>739278212Wonder if the reboot will retain the "fly by rival" cutaways. That was a neat touch in Zero.
>>739278567I doubt it since they were harping on the game play being unchanged. Maybe in a post mission cutscene or something though.
>>739278212>"the core of the game is rotten...">pic doesn't actually talk about core mechanics at allMedal objectives & gyrowing are valid complaints, the rest is just>plotWho cares?>unlocksProgression system stuff is meaningless to this kind of game>branching paths>I need faux-nonlinearitynone of this shit is what made SF64 good>plot shit AGAIN>"IN NO WAY EFFECTS THE OUTCOME"do you guys seriously treat Star Fox as a choose-your-own adventure game as its main appeal? what the ever loving fuck IT'S A PEW PEW SPACE SHIP GAME
>>739278316Yeah maybe, but going outside a franchise and trying to "recapture" something is a huge turn off, and frankly never pays off. I just want them to make a Sonic game where I get to roam around and do momentum platforming, explore and solve a few puzzles, and switch between the gigantic cast of characters they have stockpiled. Just give me 3 levels apiece for like 20 characters, like is that too much to ask? tired of these sidescrolling levels, copy pasted between games, with that fucking boost shit.
>>739278212I'm sort of glad zero didn't have multi-player since too much focus on that would detract from the main game and honestly star fox never had a great multi-player experience.
>>739278567I have it in good faith that there's a "play as Starwolf" mode in the remake that they didn't reveal.
>>739278705>do you guys seriously treat Star Fox as a choose-your-own adventure game as its main appeal?They don't since they despise command. A lot of the so called fans don't actually like the games and are only invested in star fox for the vibes and fan made content.
>>739278658>fail to disarm the bomb>Wolf sends you the equivalent of this afterwards
>>739278705>Who cares?If we didn't care, why are we playing Star Fox instead of mechanically better ships and flight sims?Why would Nintendo make a point of choosing character designs that stand out?Why would they be focusing so heavily on the story and consistently acknowledge every little nook and cranny of the lore every chance they get?Why would you even post fanart?A connection to the cast and world is part of Star Fox's appeal. Miyamoto and Imamura even felt this connection was more important than a consistent gameplay identity. Denying it just because a game you like fumbled is deeply dishonest.
>>739278891I like Command.Sorry if that sets your strawman on fire I guess.
>>739279038>If we didn't care, why are we playing Star Fox instead of mechanically better ships and flight sims?Holy fucking shit how are you living up to every strawman I had in my head. It's because it's an arcadey game and not a "simulator". I'm playing Star Fox and Dodonpachi games back-to-back right now. The simple fact that you're coming at this from a perspective of "sims are mechanically better than a simple game like Star Fox" shows how broken Star Fox fans' priorities fundamentally are.>Why would Nintendo make a point of choosing character designs that stand out?>Why would you even post fanart?Because I'm focused on visuals and not story>A connection to the cast and world is part of Star Fox's appeal. Miyamoto and Imamura even felt this connection was more important than a consistent gameplay identity. Denying it just because a game you like fumbled is deeply dishonest.It matters somehwat to me but only somewhat. The problem is you said "the core is rotten" then made it clear you don't even like the core of Star Fox to begin with and think "flight simulators" are fundamentally better.>>739276861>Good mechanics alone don't make for an engaging game.They kinda do if the level design is decent enough - see Mario 64. SF64's level design is great but not peak, however the core mechanics make it tons of fun. Zero's level design is less good but does its job; hell, I'd say it's more consistent at being engaging rail shooter level design than Mario 64 is engaging platformer level design (and mind you I actually love SM64). But the core mechanics are even better than SF64, which was the main appeal of SF64 to begin with.>>739278891I dunno, maybe it's two different groups. There do seem to be a lot of lorefags. However the pic's focus on plot, "outcome", branching paths, unlocks etc etc does a pretty amazing job at sidelining what actually makes a rail shooter fun. I really expected it to tear apart the level designs or something but nope, nothing.
>>739279419>The problem is you said "the core is rotten"You know that more than one person is in this thread, right. God damn, dude.I'm just saying that people clearly fucking care and the point of the series is to get people into it. It's not incidental. People would not be bitching about how it keeps going back to the Lylat Wars if they didn't care. You having a different opinion doesn't change that this matters for most people.
>>739279849Also>>739279419>The simple fact that you're coming at this from a perspective of "sims are mechanically better than a simple game like Star Fox" That's not what I said, you blithering autist. I said that if you didn't care about anything but mechanics, you would play games purely for the mechanics. Star Fox's appeal isn't just "is a rail shooter."Then again, it probably is for you. Which means yeah, good for you. You aren't most people. Please conceptualize that "not a problem for me" doesn't mean it's not a problem for others.
>>739279849Okay, fine, I'm not judging you if you care about story in Star Fox more than I do. However you didn't address the obvious bullshit about "flight sims". That's kinda the strawman view I had in my head of a stereotypical /v/ poster's taste; someone who thinks "simulationism" is inherently better than fundamental, unrealistic video gamey design.>>739278768Having multiple characters or not is kinda whatever to me, though I get the desire to enforce it after the "Sonic's stupid friends" meme. I think having less characters means more focused storytelling at least. Yeah I know I was dismissing Star Fox's story JUST NOW but I genuinely think Sonic has better kids' cartoon-ass storytelling than Star Fox; nothing on par with SA2's clever thematic delivery at least. Presentation-wise SF is more about the vibes to me especially with the charming Thunderbirds inspiration.I think what makes Adventure special is... in some ways similar, in others different from 1 to 2. 1 has very free-form platforming and movement that lets you fuck around & interact with the level geometry in pretty crazy ways (the kinda point "jank is good" people try to make but I don't think you can rehabilitate the term "jank" to not be a negative thing, or at the very least an "ironic enjoyment" thing). SA2 is more of a carefully put together score attack game. Compare to, say, S3K where scoring is tedious shit that goes against the core appeal despite the levels being often built around it.
>>739280015Look up
>>739280015>Yeah I know I was dismissing Star Fox's story JUST NOW but I genuinely think Sonic has better kids' cartoon-ass storytelling than Star Fox; nothing on par with SA2's clever thematic delivery at least.Bro, you might actually be retarded.Not saying Star Fox is high literature, but goddamn.
>>739280013>>739280059Your phrasing was the issue: equating a cartoony arcadey game to "flight sims", like simulation was ever even the point of these games. Like game design improvement is about getting closer and closer to full "simulation" and there's no inherent worth to fundamental design.What even are these "flight sims" with better mechanics?>>739280112Nah, I'm right. Equating the "real" & "fake" emeralds "with the same properties" to Sonic & Shadow to say "it doesn't matter which is the real hedgehog" & enforce the core point that one's purpose is self-defined & not inherent is way above anything SF ever did.
>>739280015I want Sonic Adventure 1 with 20 characters and fuck around level design. I will settle for Sonic Heroes 2.
>>739280214I will say James McCloud appearing at the end as like, a metaphor or a figment of Fox's imagination was pretty cool. Zero literalized his appearance as an actual ghost pilot which was stupid, but oh well. All the stuff with the side characters like Bill or Katt add to a "vibe" like playing through a random batch of episodes of a kids' show, like the game is part of something bigger, but it's still a vibe thing and not "I formed a connection to Bill" or whatever.
i fucking hate adventures. i hate it. pointless tedium in every little thing. level design is nonexistent. nothing about it guides you anywhere, so the game instead gives you a walkthrough you can access at any point when you inevitably get lost. its not star fox, and its NOT zelda, its a SHIT GAME
>>739280909I haven't played it since 2005 but I remember thinking "how do you make stabbing a t-rex through the skull or riding a sauropod & shooting missiles in the air boring?" I haven't played the original Dinosaur Planet but I kind of doubt it's immensely betterI loved Zelda type games back then too, now I have less patience for them, so I'd probably be worse off playing it now
What if it's not a remake and Andross just keeps trying to attack Corneria.
>>739281151no its just a remake with a bunch of cutscenes of stuff we didnt see before, like the crew inside the damaged great fox after the missile hit it. we see that in the trailer. all the effort im sure went purely into that
>>739268342ThisFans were desperate for it to be good and it was a collosal disappointment.Now that the dust has settled, the controls were fine, and i actually liked platinums new scoring mechanics quite a lot... It just likes any of the charm of the other games.
>>739281513>lacks the charm of the other gameshow, especially since a good chunk of star fox games aren't even super charming to begin with>desperate for it to be good and it was a collosal disappointment.I mean that's kinda the issue>the controls were fine, and i actually liked platinums new scoring mechanics quite a lot...things like scoring mechanics are not something Star Fox fans actually care about for some reason and they sure don't like learning a new control scheme
>>739268863You are the first I ever seen, I havent played the game though
the wiiu gamepad was a failed abortion and I'm so very happy I no longer have to worry about dogshit gimmicks like they put in this game
>>739281795wii could've been a great system for stuff like rail shooters but gamers are the worst kind of people so complete casuals willing to buy the yogi bear movie game took over & defined who games were made for
>>739281858gamers truly are worse than hitler
>>739268863>>739269952>>739279419>>739280214Go back to Twitter you Romanian tranny loving faggot.
>derailing with poopdick schizo because I'm wrong
James appearing is high psychological stress situation of Fox's animal survival instincts on steroids kicking in. This was fucking fight or flight situation. James itself is a safe home to Fox so thats what his instincts manifested it as. You're not supposed to take it at literal face value as a ghost helping his son.
>>739282998I know, and I didn't, I'm just saying Andross acknowledges him in Zero implying he is a ghost. but "canon" isn't real so who cares
>>739282998it's called fucking AMBIGUITY and it should be used more.see: twin peaks
>>739282998>James appearing is high psychological stress situation of Fox's animal survival instincts on steroids kicking inOR, its just his fucking ghost>but thats not scifieven better, because that means he was some sort of mental imprint that got stuck in whatever mind fuckery andross had going on in venom
>>739283065Yeah, Zero ruins the subtle writing of 64 with Andross seeing James' ghost. I'm glad its a one-off.
>>739283238I can acknowledge it, it just doesn't make me go "fuck this bullshit" since I still enjoy the game. Again it's the closest to SF64's appeal from what I've tried so far and even improves upon some aspects of it.
>>739282341>Overuse of quotation marks>Goes on multi-post tangents>Arcade tranny>Replies to everyone>Just doesn't shut the FUCK upYep. It's him! >Calls Gooseworx "she"lol lmao even
>>739282341>another tapir thread where he parrots opinions from e-celebstapir i would've at least give you the benefit of the doubt when you stop sucking tranny dick and if you shit on them relentlessly for ruining video games, but you're such a pussy because you're afraid of offending your tranny friends for that.
>>739269102Miyamoto has had a long time problem of needing to innovate gaming hence the multitude of gimmicks with controller schemes and whatnot which he used Star Fox as a primary testing ground for.It was a good mindset back in the 90s and 00s but since then unless we get true VR there isn't much to really innovate.
>>739283575dont give him any ideas or the next nintendo console is going to be an apple vision pro
>>739281661>star fox games aren't even super charming to begin withDesperate>coring mechanics are not something Star Fox fans(((Fandom))) posting is cringe
>>739283575But "true VR" is about immersion while Nintendo's "gimmicks" were just about mastering a peripheral and how it interacts with the individual games' mechanics. "DUDE I'M LIKE, REALLY IN THE GAME" goes against what made, say, the Wiimote fun in the handful of games that weren't shit AND used it (which is probably why lame modern Nintendo will totally embrace "immersion" in the future).One game that made me think "holy shit this is like playing NES games for the first time again" was the original Rhythm Tengoku on GBA. The least immersion-driven thing imaginable.>>739284019I said "a good chunk of Star Fox games". Star Wolf & co having impactful melee attacks is charm, shit like going through the shield when the mothership fires in Sector Beta is charm.>(((Fandom))) posting is cringeI mean yeah, there's a lot of people hyperfocused on characters & story at the expense of gameplay so...
>>739281127>I haven't played the original Dinosaur Planet but I kind of doubt it's immensely betterGuess what
>>739280214>Completely misinterprets post>Blames other anon for it
>>739284772>"If we didn't care, why are we playing Star Fox instead of mechanically better ships and flight sims?"what is there to misinterpret here. dumb thing to say.
>>739284872That ships should be shmups, but I think you have to be extremely fucking retarded to take>If we don't care about story, why not play mechanically better games where you're in a vehicle shooting shit?and read it as>REEEEE THESE OTHER GENRES ARE INHERENTLY BETTER THAN THIS ONE, PLEASE IGNORE THAT THIS IS A TOTAL NON SEQUITUR!and act like you're being reasonable.
>You've lived long enough to see contrians start to say maybe we were a little too harsh on Star Fox Zero SalesFirst Other M, Sticker Shart, Color Splat and now this. Me and the few Tendies who didn't fall for the negative hype or have an autistic canniption with the controls still doesn't change the fact that Zero's an overall bland, gimmicky demake in comparison to 64 and I don't blame the majority who didn't like it for one reason or another and also doesn't change the fact that the Wii U fucking bombed and was a shitty console. There's no reason Zero couldn't had controller only scheme or straight up no gyro. Also I'll never forget when /v/ boasted Nintendo """won""" E3 with ONE GAME and now look where the Zelda cycle's at a decade later where all the die hards hate where the direction's going when they mass pirated BotW and TotK close to release. kekIn hindsight you fags got too cocky.>>739274338Pictel's for you, niggerfaggot. You weren't there.
>>739285114Yeah I'm sorry anon somehow managed to typo "shmups" as "ships" if that's not an excuse. And my point still stands that Star Fox isn't meant to be a "sim" and honestly I wouldn't even call it a shmup even if it has heavy basis in shmups - they share fundamentals, but you don't play Darius or Cave shmups for EXACTLY the same reasons you play Star Fox. Still haven't seen any examples of mechanically better games that do what Star Fox does better (don't cheap out with my Sin & Punishment example from earlier)... which would be hard since just "rail shooters" is a very varied genre with a gradient of gameplay styles as-is. At least it would give me something to go by.>>739285173You seem overly concerned with a wide, vague conception of a "gaming/gamer history canon" applied to the industry as a whole (or at least Nintendo) instead of honing in on a specific types of game you like. Like the kinda guy who says "TORtanic" but with bing bing wahoo.>There's no reason Zero couldn't had controller only scheme or straight up no gyro.I understand the multiple screens criticism even if I don't think it matters that much, but complaining about motion controls in the genre that fits motion controls best is really, really bizarre.
>>739285173>Zero's an overall bland, gimmicky demakeMy favorite dismissals to these are always>W-who cares about the story! Who plays Star Fox for the story!?>It's not a gimmick! You just got filtered! >I-I don't mind the graphics! They look fine!The second one especially gets me. It's like they forgot James' "Trust your ViEw FrOm ThE cOcKpIt, Fux" shoe-horned thematic line at the end of the game which wasn't AT ALL a dead giveaway about the gimmickiness of the game.
>>739285631Again the most common /v/ view since the 2000s has been that motion controls are a gimmick and for casuals who can't wrap their heads around controllers, while immediate button-presses where you're practically "controlling the game with your mind" are superior. Indiscernible from Yahtzee & his Second Wind fanboys and a very boring view of game design.
>Criticism = ComplainingNo.
>>739285787I don't use "complaint" negatively and even used the term "valid complaint" before in this thread. I use it as practically a synonym for criticism.
>>739268117In case you forgot, Iwata was in panic mode over the Wii U flopping and Miyamoto was told to create some gameplay concepts to showcase the Gamepad since its appeal was not being understood by players or used by developers. Miyamoto came up with Project Giant Robo (later scrapped and repurposed into the Labo Robot Kit), Project Guard (made into Star Fox Guard) and Star Fox Zero. There was never going to be a Star Fox Zero without the forced motion/Gamepad controls, they're the whole reason the game existed like with Wii Sports. The Gamepad just fucking sucks as an integrated control scheme outside of a few very specific instances, unlike the Wii Remote.
>>739286089The Wiimote was treated exactly the same way you're treating the Wii U gamepad back in the day. "Wiimote was fine, but THIS was shit" is like seeing /v/ anons say "man modern FPSes suck, I miss the days of Halo 1-2 and CLASSIC Call of Duty".
They still thought you needed a "gimmick" to make sales.They didn't think the motion controls were necessarily a good idea, they were just trying to think around the assumption that they were a must-have.
>>739286216Again I'd get it more if the "gimmick" criticism focus was on them prodding you to use the second screen (even not bringing up the TV screen-switch in the tutorial) but the amount of people bringing up the motion controls as a big flaw is loony. IT'S A RAIL SHOOTER.
>I don't use "complaint" negatively Read a dictionary then kill yourself.
>>739286161Well, WW2 CoD is good. In 1-3 and their expansions, they'd show documentary footage before each mission and try to capture that feeling with the gameplay.
>>739286161I'm not talking about online discourse, I'm talking about how each controller was used. The Wii Remote is extremely straightforward to use and an extension of the player's arm for aiming and doing light motions. The Gamepad is invariably cumbersome and an additional layer between the player and the game. It could never work as well for an action game.
>>739286304I mean that I'm not using it to say "you're just whining".>>739286318Would you say that something like the gyro on a PS4 controller is significantly better or still a shit gimmick? Does the criticism include the design of the gamepad not being great or just the "it's not an extension of your arm" part? Because frankly a heavier, or more complicated than usual, gun peripheral is not exactly an extension of your arm either.
>oh yeah, that happenedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1oJo5jtWDM
>>739286508I hated it, fuck you for reminding me this exists.>hurrdurr I'm yelling you're yelling, oh wait, we're professionals? screw that fuck you fox fuck you andross fuck you pepper fuck fuck fuck we're all literal children its a wonder the galaxy runs correctly
>>739285630>complaining about motion controls in the genre that fits motion controls best is really, really bizarreThere's nothing wrong or "weird" about having another control option.>B-BUTCope. Post a sceenshot of your progress right freaking meow or I'm inclined to believe you're just parroting Mork without having actually played the game.
>>739286689I haven't done enough because I'm not only playing this as I said earlier, like to replay levels + get distracted by dumb shit like this thread but I've played *enough* to know the usual criticisms are wrong
>>739286775I forgot that Zoness, the worst level, is required on all paths. Talk about a replay killer, fuck this game.
>>739286775>>739286689Also>There's nothing wrong or "weird" about having another control option.How would you even reconfigure the controls for that to make sense? As far as I can tell you'd need to dedicate an entire stick to aiming and there's just not enough buttons for everything.>>739287035Again, nowhere near as much time-wasting as your average combat game that wants to be an "action-adventure game".
>>739276161>I was always the guy saying "Mario 3D World is actually really good", to which a lot of people would reply "whatever, retard". Chances are they hadn't played itWe (plural because co-op) had Super Mario 3D World since release and absolutely loathed it. Not because we were expecting Galaxy 3 or anything grand, but purely because it gives a dogshit first impression.>lazy music>awful 8-direction control>unexciting gameplay>boring stages>furry-coded gimmick costumeA few years ago we gave it a second chance as part of a "all mainline Mario games" run and it was easily one of the top 3 games in terms of fun and gameplay/stage variety. The post-game challenge/bonus stages were great and the final one was pure KINO.The game is like those meme comics where something is shit but is actually diamonds, but the problem is that the shit layer before getting to the diamonds is REALLY thick or dense that people get filtered and I cannot blame them for it. Curious how you couldn't praise that game here on /v/ until Bowser's Fury got released which was the only time you get to see it praised.
Imagine if Adventures continued as a series. The Star Fox "Prime" if you will.
>>739287973No just make more straightforward action games. Adventures was Miyamoto being retarded and tacking his license onto something totally different, an inherently artless decision
>>739287973You just want more Krystal slop
>>739290014Agreed. It was cobbled together out of something that was never part of the franchise. Hoping SF26 will do well enough to warrant proper sequels with a brand new story
>>739290435I doubt it will because lots of people already played SF64 and this is a second remake (no I don't think "same plot = remake" exactly; SF1, SF64 & Zero are pretty damn different BUT the 3DS game is totally a remake, some might argue remaster). likely few people will buy it to support more Star Fox despite already having played 64 to death. it kinda hinges on a whole new generation of little kids who never played Star Fox before getting really into a rail shooter and that's a total crapshoot.
>>739290637We'll see in a month
>>739268117I'm glad that the new game is a remake of Starfox 64
>>739291098trying really hard to make the redesign attractive there
>>739291232She's already perfect the way she is
>>739291693she looks like she has mange
>>739268117I bet the devs playtested on a monitor that showed both screens because it was only through CEMU using that setup that i started thinking the game wasn't half bad.The free flight sections and the gyrocopter can suck a thousand dicks tho.
>>739276301I mean, is SF1 really "dated" if it was already biting off more than it could chew for the hardware at the time? Could've been an arcade game; that kinda hardware could handle games like that more fluidly, but they wanted a 3D game on the SNES instead. I guess this should give me extra reason to dismiss it but I do want to give it another try one day still.>>739292230It's way less than half bad + you can show both screens on Wii U anyway. Increased all-range mode focus always made me skeptical but it's so hugely based around careful routing if you want medals that it's still fundamentally linear.
>>739277315I'm not replaying a level 50 times until I get a perfect score. that's padding from the '80s to keep retards playing exceedingly simple games, like metro cross, centipede, missile command, xenophobe, space invaders, joust, wizard of wor, berzerk, etc.
>>739268117>MitamotoIt's made by Platinum, not Miyamoto
>>739293107>shitting on arcade games>overwhelmingly lists ancient western gamesalways thisalso yeah sure this is the same as wizard of wor, fine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEj7uhEdpUI
>>739293107Then don't do it.Idk why you're complaining about having the option to get a high score.
>>739293184>>7392931071ccing dodonpachi is the same as wizard of wor. i am gay.
>>739272187>if you even know who these reddit furry freaks areThe guy's name is literally in the meme though?
>>739278705>>plot>Who cares?are you fucking kidding me? the series is about fox and his squad of private military contractors. 64 was fox's coming of age storywithout a story, why the fuck are you even going through the levels? why even have characters? imagine if mario had remained unchanged from super mario bros: no kingdom, no kidnappings, no world map, no nothing. just you being warped to the entrance of the next level
>>739293437>without a story, why the fuck are you even going through the levels?Fun gameplay.The story being good is an added bonus.
>>739293203those arcade games aren't even worth $5 todayyou're selling a $15 minigame for $60no one is gonna buy it
>>739293437part of me really wants to go full anti-story "only mechanical engagement through challenge matters" to annoy you, especially given this horrible view >>739293546, but I do fundamentally agree with >>739293462but seriously do you guys even like video games or just "interactive immersive experiences"? why the internet-wide gamer anger over mixtape or whatever, if this is how many of you think?
>>739293546>you're selling a $15 minigame for $60I'm not selling anything.You mean Starfox? It's the best selling video game on Amazon right now, so you're mistaken.
I love how retards are still set on calling it a 64 remake when most routes, missions, and bosses are largely different
>>739293917They never played the game.
I saw people claim "barely any Star Fox fans are actual arcadey action game fans" and assumed it was a smug strawman but this thread's starting to change my mind. Kinda hard to say "okay Zero is not as overall strong a rail shooter as SF64 but it's still fun and worth giving a shot, sure you can tell it's rushed but it's good and unique the way Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 are good" when actual shooty mechanics seem to play such a small part of people's enjoyment of the games to the point where an image like this >>739278212 overwhelmingly focuses on unlocks, nonlinearity, "making an impact on the world", endings, story, lore etc and people ITT actively argue against replay-based depthI like Star Fox because playing Virtua Cop 2 as a kid made me get into rail shooters. The character/tone-based charm is a fun extra but not the main dish. I more readily played & replayed Sin & Punishment the year Command came out because it was mechanically more fun to me and that mattered to me more than any attachment I had to the "Star Fox world".
>>739294405The image you are referencing isn't even original. It heavily copied the template of an older similar looking image criticizing metroid other m. You can tell which one was created out of genuine issues with the game and which one was just cherry picking negative aspects to fit the template. You think starfoxfags are even this resourceful to pull this off on their own?
>>739294712Fuck me.>>739294405To add to this, it's kind of how a common praise of classic Doom on /v/ is "the maps are big and nonlinear" when really it's the enemy toolbox & how the level geometry interacts with the combat explicitly makes it great. Also probably why Serious Sam often gets way more shit than other retro-style shooters since it's more arena-based and inspired by arcade games enough that The Second Encounter introduces a screen-clearing bomb.
>>739278212>>739294712The metroid one does look more professional since each talking point are nearly contained in a colored box and there's space between each topic. The star fox one looks like the creator wanted to cram as many things in as the page would allow.
>>739294865I could see Other M being fun, just not in a Metroid way, but knowing it has lengthy unskippable cutscenes is making me not want to prioritize it since my main goal would be to judge the gameplay.
>>739294840You probably should get a brief summary on why all this stuff is happening. Long story short assaultfags want only that game to be the template for the series going forward, claiming it is the actual good game in the series by modern standards with sometimed also saying 64 is good just so they don't completely sound like idiots. They got frustrated the story ended with command and no new games materialized besides star fox 64 3D. So when star fox zero was announced and looking to largely be another lylat wars with nothing taken from assault, the most important thing being no Krystal, they were more than eager to trash the game regardless of how it turned out. It was mostly coincidence that zero has legitimate significant issues. Whatever other flaws it may or may not have they overexaggerate it as if zero was an egregious act against humanity and relish in zero failing. It is now 10 years after that and they seem to want to do the same with the new star fox game with whatever straws they can grab. They may not though since this time it seems like the new star fox game has to do well for any types of sequels to be made.
>>739294939You can skip cutscenes in hard mode.
>>739294840Linear level design gives the games actual structure so you can better control the pacing of the game. Assault's arena level designs are the consequence of the game made to be multiplayer first but the issue is they don't do anything clever to reuse those stages and ultimately make them just bland destroy targets objectives with gameplay feeling more like dynasty warriors than a shooter that requires some strategy.
>>7392951872026, I don't really like the designs and it's probably a farmed-out western remake like the new Panzer Dragoons BUT if it somehow does well and leads to new SF64-style games then I don't care *that* much. I just don't have much good to say of substance because, well, it's gonna be a total remake of SF64's levels & movement so of course the gameplay will be good unless they fuck it up really bad... but Nintendo aren't Sega, they're at least likely to pick a competent white people studio to farm it out to.I overwhelmingly ignored the "Star Fox fandom" until very recently but I am noticing a lot of serious love for Assault since the announcement, even on the Japanese Internet, and a lot is focused on "cute character interactions" or whatever. The one gameplay-focused clip I saw from a part I never reached (because I got bored) looked like a very bland version of what actually good rail shooters do (again similar to that one S&P 'levitating debris' level but it was Fox on an Arwing). Zero's setpieces aren't as good as SF64's but there's way more excitement there still while that "epic" clip from later in Assault gave me the same "how do you make this boring" vibe a lot of Adventures gave me as a kid.>>739295395Exactly why it didn't grab me; the "oh yeah these are multiplayer maps, the singleplayer is an afterthought" feeling was all over the place. Zero isn't the most polished game but it's still meant to be a fun singleplayer adventure, it's where the focus clearly went.And yeah I'm defending linear design. I don't even think exploration is bad but it needs to be a core part of the experience, not something you attach to a game for instant bonus review points. Zero suffers from this too but again, way less than most games, EVEN SOME ARCADE GAMES. Some of the medals are annoying but not even as annoying as having to know where the chests are in Ghosts n' Goblins.Classic FPS secrets are another can of worms. Definitely something that holds them back
>>739295629The current star fox fandom is unhealthily obsessed with Assault and Krystal. Probably due to the lack of new major entries but the fandom is overtaken by furries so their actual thoughts on the series should not be taken too seriously. I do agree that the new star fox game doesn't look what I had in mind but I'm willing to keep an open mind until it comes out. It may be shit for all we know but we'll have to see how it ends up being first.
>>739295629It's heavily speculated that Next Level Games are making the new star fox
>>739295967There's also the gay male shippers (probably some significant overlap with Krystal people given furry turn-on patterns). I think Nintendo know better than to fuck up the gameplay of a 1997 game because again, they're not Sega>>739296009Well, I absolutely loved Punch-Out Wii and I'm a "westernization is cancer" Wapanese dork usually. Game was just that fun & well-presented (outside of the mediocre looking hand-drawn slideshows but that's such a small part).
I've been playing through the games for the first time and Zero is my favourite. I think playing it on Cemu helped it out though. Adventures was so boring that I dropped it.
>>739296353I'm now going out of my way to use the "switch to cockpit view on the TV" button on the emulator instead of the "switch to gamepad view" one. Maybe I'll have some trouble later on due to precision... but so far it's not a huge difference. And again, people overstate just how much you need to switch back and forth to begin with. For example, from the online reception I assumed I HAD to use the cockpit view for the spider-mechs in Corneria... but you don't. You can just target them with the basic motion controls, or lock-on then aim the charge shot UPWARDS so it travels down. The kind of experimentation I doubt most people even bothered with.
>>739268117I reject the idea that games should be intuitive because that just means that everything gets homogenized into the same grey goo which is exactly whats happening with AAA gaming right now down to the UIs and even fonts.It also teaches the audience that straying from the norm is bad, when its far from the truth.Gaming should require mastery anyways and we are in dire need of games that break the mold.That being said I didnt play Star Fox Zero so I cant judge it.
>>739296540I just have the gamepad window on one monitor and the tv window on the other.
>>739296353>>739296540Also yeah my memory of Adventures is that it was just boring, and that was when I was a huge Zelda fan. A lot of concepts that should be amazingly fun but they're executed so boringly. The T-Rex fight in particular triggered me since it was fucking nothing.>>739296578Just give it a shot on Cemu with a PS4 controller or whatever (dunno what else you could use with gyro). And nah you're right, "controls should be an extension of your thoughts" is bullshit. I get taking issue if there's not proper framing (a platform mascot controlling like a heavy mech would be weird) but many don't even consider that; you'll see Steam reviewers cry about Assault Suits-style mech sidescrollers not controlling like Mega Man. The games with a big fat fucking robot front and center somehow shouldn't make you feel like you're inside of a a big fat fucking robot piloting it.Star Fox Zero has the right framing. "WHY does the walker mech have tank controls" because you're a cartoon animal inside of it piloting it.>>739296603Then I don't really see how Cemu would help much. Better controller I guess? N64 controller wasn't great either.
>>739296818did I say cartoon animal, I meant 60s Britbong puppet through a Japanese lens
>>739296818I don't have to move my head alongside the controller to pay attention to the cockpit view. I can just keep it straight while I motion my controller around. Maybe it doesn't make such a big difference in practice. Haven't played it on my actual Wii U.
>>739285630You definitely have autism
>>739297051Nah, just have experience with 20 years of /v/.
>>739268117Besides the shitty controls, are Zero's levels actually good?
>>739297249If you think the controls are shitty (bad taste) I doubt you'd get much out of the levels.
>>739297317I haven't played the game. Nice free seething, tho.
>>739297473Seethe cope dilate beep boop I am gay robot man
A BotW styled Adventure remake with seamless transition between ground and space is in the works.
>>739285734You're right, Bananza should have been controlled entirely by shaking your hands, what was Nintendo thinking?
>>739297598They only needed to copy Ace Combat 7 instead of making BotW3.
>>739297649Bananza looks like boring shit outside of the final stage & boss. Every other clip looks like nothing.>DUDE YOU CAN DESTROY THE GROUND IN THREEE DEEE AND IT'S NOT BLOCKY LIKE MINECRAFTWorms 3D did that in 2003
>>739286161The Wii remote had several games that played to its strengths. The Wii U Gamepad did not.
>>739297727Star Fox Zero does :^)
>>739297712>Defends Star Fox Zero in spite of it wasting several stages on going "LOOK, DO YOU GET IT? DO YOU GET THE GIMMICK? ISN'T IT COOL?" because it's unorthodox game design.>Criticizes a 3D platformer with incredible movement options because it has a goofy gimmick that could, for a player unwilling to engage earnestly, break the game design.Yeah ok, you're just talking bullshit and don't believe a word you say, you're just a contrarian.
>>739297783>No touch screen use.>It's actually easier to play with a regular gyro-enabled controller, hitting the - button to switch views.No. Rainbow Curse kicks ass, for comparison.
>>739268117>AdventuresRare's fault>AssaultNamco's fault>CommandQ-Games' fault>ZeroPlatinum's faultThe last Star Fox game by Nintendo was 64, until now
>>739268117>Put the walker from Star Fox 2>Is not a remake of Star Fox 2I don't comprehend.....
>One or two autists jumping through hoops to concoct ridiculously specific fandom conspiracy theories just because the average Star Fox enjoyer cares about the entire package.Absolutely awful thread.
>>739298272homosexual star fox fans love caring about furry men's packages
>>739297862does the game actually incentivize you to use those "incredible movement options" with the threat of failure to any significant extent? I generally assume a game must be easy as piss and doesn't enforce anything on the player if a terrible Youtube critic who clearly sucks at games says it's mindless. Yahtzee said Torchlight was easy as shit "wow this guy sucks at games, this game must be really piss-easy" Synthetic Man says Bananza is a baby game "wow this guy is a mongoloid this game must be REALLY easy"jak 1 is a platformer with great movement that doesn't incentivize you to use it
>>7392981491 and 2 are awful, cope.
>>739297914>a kirby game>actually easierno shit
Just played Zero for the first time because of this thread.Holy shit the chicken-walker and the helicopter are so bad, threw in the towel at level 4.
>>739299261helicopter is intentionally qwop stuff at first, chicken is no different from playing classic armored core or god hand and barely offers a fundamental control challenge if you have even the most basic video game experience
>>739299349Shit's unfun, therefore it's unplayable.Also the walker controls like shit. You turn left or right and it moves fowards! What were they thinking??
>>739268117It started as a tech showcase for the Wii U GamePad, then Miyamoto slapped Star Fox on it. Kind of like how Adventures was Dinosaur Planet before being converted into a Star Fox game.Only this time there was no IP conversion, just taking a concept and converting it into Star Fox.This game could have been any other IP and as long as it kept the same control scheme, it would have been reviled.Such a shame Star Fox was shackled to it. We could have gotten an original Star Fox on Switch 1.
>>739299428I really think you must have the the most barebones video game palette imaginable if the goddamn chicken mech gives you trouble. it's the most basic shit
>>739299513>No valid argument>resorts to insults insteadOk.
>>739299692what is there to say, man. the helicopter giving you trouble at first I get, but I *immediately* picked up on how to control the chicken mech because I actually play video games. post 3x3
>>739293662>just make it pure gameplay, fuck character development and worldbuildingok then, enjoy selling as many copies as your typical weebshit bullet hell shmup (i.e. fewer than 100k)
>>739299825I didn't say the chicken gave me trouble. I don't know why you keep repeating that phrase like a parrot.
>>739299891it's bizarre to think the chicken is le legendarily horrible controls. post 3x3 bitch
>>739299943>No argument>Resorts to insults, again*yawn*
>>739299838kids love playing fortnite, among us, minecraft etc for the vaatividya lore coverage you're right>>739299838but "weebshit" bullet hell shmups often do have detailed narratives, and it's actually kind of bizarrely charming how much thought is put into them>>739300067again what arguments? yeah I think having to learn controls for a goddamn mech you're meant to feel like you're piloting is valid game design. what games do you like?
>>739298149It's Nintendo's fault for outsourcing the games to begin with. I've also seen people speculate the new remake is also handled by a Western studio, but idk.
>>739300150>again what arguments?That's my point. You have nothing. You're just upset at my preferences, like an autististic child who doesn't understand that different people have different tastes.
>>739300232nigga this is /v/. post 3x3
>>739300280So why are you so upset at my preferences?
>>739300347why are you upset at extremely simple controls
>>739300210I agree, Team Ninja and Next Level almost killed Metroid, they got so lucky with MercurySteam
>>739300424>dodges the questionstop crying.Why are you so upset? It seems like you genuinely have autism.
>>739300150>but "weebshit" bullet hell shmups often do have detailed narrativesthey don't you mongoloid. caveshit and troonhu have no cutscenes and barely any dialogue. sf64 has more cutscenes than either
>>739300534shit like mushihimesama & dodonpachi has "lore", it's just not evident ingame>>739300508/v/ - don't yum my yuck
>>739300592>y-you have some obscure internet website d-descriptions!in other words, nothing. I accept your concession
>>739300632>why are you saying my taste is shit on shit flinging central... looks like you have some growing up to do
>>739300592It's not my job to babysit crying autists.Let me know when you're done bawling.
>>739282807>>739291693>>739291098reminder of what's at stake
>>739300680>no argument, so starts flinging insultsstop conceding. you're embarrassing yourself
>>73930006767>>739300000
The main problem with Zero, besides how most of it is just a lame remake of 64, is the Wii U controllers. No gyro on Pro controller, and the gamepad is a retarded brick which makes the gyro awkward to use. I'd honestly prefer to use a Wiimote & nunchuck.I think Zero highlighted what is wrong with Starfox; they should really just ditch everything besides the rail shooting segments, and maybe they should simplify it by removing boosting, braking, barrel rolls, and tilting. I think by making that all automatic (and tied into gameplay; i.e. if you're doing well keeping your team mates alive, you might break less or not do any barrel rolls; which might mean more boosting and better clear scores/different routes/bosses; kind of like how in Ikaruga if you chain well you get more chaining opportunities), it would probably focus development on replay ability (e.g. unlockable team mates that you can fly with or as; maybe with a few different paths for each stage based on their personalities).
>>739298972>Fail state is the only reason to engage in game mechanics.By that logic Zero's gimmicks are dogshit, as you can beat the entire game with gyro turned off and no second screen.
>>739301115does bananza have a half decent ranking system
>>739299261>Threw in the towel at level 4Most people are so annoyed once they reach Zoness that they aren't willing to be kind to the game anymore, yeah. I can't blame you. Fichina, Fortuna and Titania are all fun levels and it's bizarre that they didn't lead with any of them.>>739299015This has to be a bot.No human would conflate the two separate points made in that post like that. Nobody is retarded enough to misunderstand it so thoroughly.
>>739301363Yeah I misread because I stopped taking the thread seriously and was replying on reflex, sorry.
>>739301154It has a Pick 3 time trial mode with seasonal rewards, yeah.https://youtu.be/t6s411QBDu8Metagame is to scope out upgrade points, bumrush them, and then cash out, but like the main game it's about asking the player to fulfill objectives with a lot of different options on how to do it.When the game came out I did a thorough, 100% run and then a speed run. The game is extremely versatile and lets anyone finish it, but also works great for challenge playthroughs. Brushing it off just because it's weird is stupid.
>>739301363Yeah it's actually aids. It's a shame because it's obviously a very polished game, just not in the gameplay...
>>739301707The gameplay is fine, IMO. The game just explains itself poorly and some of the bosses condition the player to engage in suboptimal, unfun ways. The big problem in my eyes is that a lot of levels are more focused on a interesting-exactly-once gimmick or just aren't very engaging for casual replays in general. About half make for decent score attack levels, but not great ones. The area design is also really bland, which doesn't help.
>>739301682Still undecided. The upgrade screens look like they break the pace a LOT but maybe it's different if I play it myself. I guess I'll give it a shot one day if I get the chance. I'd likely have straightforwardly said "yeah this looks really fun, I concede" if the upgrade system wasn't there.>>739301065I don't agree with this view at all and don't really think Star Fox needs to be more like a shoot-em-up than it is... but it's a really interesting view that shows very specific taste so I respect it.>>739302084>some of the bosses condition the player to engage in suboptimal, unfun waysElaborate on this, I'm curious. Maybe some specific examples of the later points.
>>739302208First boss, Aquarosa and Andross all push the player to try and pay attention to both screens when they're more effectively handled by switching when necessary (and they're also all pretty ass). They're trying to encourage the player to engage the way Miyamoto pitched the game through radio chatter and really annoying gimmicks when that style of play is something that should be occuring naturally due to the freedom and added precision gyro + second view provides.It's a big part of why people start off with a negative impression and end on one.
>>739302084>Corneria>Space>Space again but the generic tech ring base from Vanquish is the second half>Sewer/Industrial>Space AGAIN>Desert (thank god)>Space AGAIN>Ice>Jungle>Space but this time we're doing an Area 6 style rush>Corneria again + meme dimension bullshit>VenomThe campaign has no sauce. Visual and setting variety is dire compared to 64. That stuff matters.
>>739302084>The gameplay is fineFine doesn't mean "good".Fine means 5/10 and I'd agree.
>>739302909Not saying it's good.
>>739302940So we're in agreement? 5/10 gameplay, at best?
>>739302553I dunno, I'd personally say all of those make it pretty clear you're meant to switch when necessary - in Aquarosa, for example, you go cockpit mode to bomb/shoot the radars and switch to escape the force field, then quickly re-enter when it dissipates. Pretty well-communicated flow. Similar with Corneria. Andross I'll admit is pretty "PLEASE use the mechanic" with the entry/exit points but I didn't think it was a bad boss fight overall. I feel like a bigger part of what made me initially think you were meant to switch CONSTANTLY was the online reputation. Being told "no dude, you don't, just do it when you need to" helped me understand the game better.
>>739268117This game existence is so funny.> Wii & DS were highly successful because of gimmicks> Tried redo success by adding gamepad gimmick for Wii U> Barely any games made good use of gamepad beside party games> Make Star Fox Zero to justify the gamepads existence> Sucks so bad that it does the oppositeKEK
>>739303106
>>739303106When I stopped using the gamepad (and found the option to have a crosshair on the 3rd person view) I never used the screen again, outside those awful hacking sections with the helicopter.
>>739291693Based. Katt looks fine.
>>739303085The game asks you to use the cockpit view but doesn't ask you to switch active view. I take that as the game asking you to use both at once actively.
>>739268117Is Zero memory holed by Nintendo? Do they want to pretend it never existed?
>>739303517I mean, I'd say it's pretty self-explanatory that you're not meant to be in cockpit view when not attacking those first 2 bosses you mentioned. Peppy tells you time and time again cockpit view is for >precision targeting<.Yet again, F-Zero GX has the calibration fucked by default. That's a pretty huge oversight and more nonsensical to ship with but it's clearly not a bad game.>>739303607They're responsible for the Mario movies existing, what do you think.
>>739303710>Peppy tells you time and time again cockpit view is for >precision targeting<.As soon as I figured out how to have a crosshair on the 3rd person mode, the screen was no longer needed. How is it more accurate exactly? Is it just because it's zoomed in more? It never helped me aim.
>>739303795Bosses that basically require forced lock-on to work, for one.
>>739304190Are there any? I don't recall.I also found the lock-on really annoying, I largely didn't use it.
>>739304273I'm improving my times in Aquarosa right now instead of medaling new levels because I'm retarded.
>>739303710>Well *I* think it makes perfect sense.Cool.We're talking about most players, and given how many people don't realize you can switch views with - and think you are literally meant to hold the pad up and use both screens while playing, I think it's fair to say the game did a shit job explaining itself.
>>739304340I think you replied to the wrong post.
>>739304353Again, F-Zero GX comes with shit hyper-sensitive controls that you gotta recalibrate. I think the fact that you gotta switch from cockpit to 3rd person depending on what's convenient at the moment is more more immediately obvious.>>739304467That was my boss example.
>Turn on 3D voices>Get audio out of the Touchpad.Neat.>Turn off 3D voices>No audio whatsoever...Huh. So I can't get audio on the TV for character dialogue?
>>739304509Why does it require lock on?
>>739304631Play Aquarosa. Or look it up.
>>739304685Post a vid please, you made the claim. Or better yet, explain to me with your words, why it's essential.
>>739304750https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_N_Pb7_qhYyou need a good look of the whole arena to figure out when the shield goes up/down. mind you I'm not judging, I've played too many games too and tend to forget shit
>>739305129Thanks, so which part is the essential use of the lock-on feature, and why?Timestamp it for me, please, so I can see a clear example of what you're talking about.
>>739268449nah its great
>>739305252I already explained it.>well it wouldn't be IMPOSSIBLE to beat it without-yeah people would whine and say the camera is bad. come on
>>739304509Let me repost this for you.>The gameplay is fine, IMO. The game just explains itself poorly and some of the bosses condition the player to engage in suboptimal, unfun ways.The conversation isn't "game bad because" or "this is worse than game X, Y and Z because." It's "The game systems aren't a problem, but most people think it's a problem because of this."We're not making a comparison and we're not talking about if we as individuals struggled with it. We're talking about causes for trends in behavior. Your personal experience with a different game with a different mechanic in a different context that you don't even know if anyone you're talking to *has even played* is not a conversation. You are talking in service to yourself, stubbornly repeating this example because you have decided the conversation must now drift into a qualitative comparison of a different thing you have an opinion on.It's cool if you want to argue that there are different causes, or if you think this trend doesn't actually exist, but this is like if I said "Well it's more intuitive than Ducky Dynasty DS." That's not relevant to anyone. That's me talking to myself.Get a grip.
>>739305950>"I already explained it!"You literally didn't. Do it in your next reply, please.I don't know why you're so afraid of this final step.
>>739306612cool effortpost but have you considered: most vocal gamers online are retarded
>>739296818It's not that the walker has tank controls that is the problem, it's that the tank controls are stupid. Why does both the left and right stick rotate the mech? What is the use case for using left stick rotation when it has the same function as the right stick but in a less precise and more clumsy way? It just seems like it only exists to be a noob trap.
>>739306989>EffortpostThe fuck kind of retarded slang is this, you inbred zoomer?
>>739307262>"effortpost" is zoomerspeakare you 13. you're trying to look like a veteran confused by the kids on your lawn but you clearly are new to the internet>>739307075because the left stick is for slight movements of the mech for *targeting* holy shit. I'm talking to invalids here
>>739306685Guess he realised it's not actually required.Oh well.
>>739307608it's not "required" the same way "can you beat super meat boy without jumping" or whatever retard youtube challenge you can technically pull off. it would just be really shitty and unwieldly
>>739307574>Effortpost isn't zoomerspeakOldest version I found was 2014.
>>739307574>slight movements of the mech for *targeting*but that's what the motion controls are for? And the left stick rotation speed doesn't seem to be any different than the right stick, it just makes you move forward as you turn
>>739306989>Golem is confronted about his lack of interiority and refusal to engage with others.>Insults, deflects, tries to shift conversation away from the prior topic as fast as possible.Yeah, that sounds about right.
>>739307926I'm saying majority opinion when it comes to what's loudly represented online doesn't matter>>739307825it's somethingawful speak from the 2000s. you know the shit website that pooped out 4chan. I hate you people so much>>739307847IT'S BOTH
>>739307991>Anon discusses with second anon why people have a certain view on the controls.>Third Anon: DOESN'T MATTER ALSO F-ZERO GXWho asked, faggot?
>>739308453yeah it's relevant to how people didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater in the past.
Are the controls worse than Skyward Sword? That game was nearing the limit of good taste with that waggle garbage.
>>739309413oh also it's not "third anon" that's still me
