>>583192331
This was genuinely non-sexual

>>583190071
>Port RB1 Story Mode to RB2 in Development
>https://youtu.be/xyS8u7MPm2k?is=n5QvTmE8kjWGRMD3
Good shit. I just wish this recomp wasn't like pretty much every other 360 recomp where they use Xenia to render everything under the hood giving you pretty much the exact same (kinda bad) performance.

>>583183389
This very much so isn't a "this is just people saying shit" moment, though Gohan has been consistently foreshadowed as being stronger than Goku since he got out of the time chamber, he's consistently the only one unimpressed at Goku's power whenever he shows it off becuase he's much stronger.

Can we have a Gekishin squadra group? Solo Q is actually breaking my spirit. I want the overhaul so bad. I want these people to die.

>>583196105
no shade but im suprised to see people playing the game still after the announced reworks, thought it just kinda died

>>583196174
You will never get a chance to play it this way ever again so get it in now.

>>583196247
Fair enough, hope you have fun while it lasts. Wish I could help but I've never played a MOBA in my life

>>583196105
>Can we have a Gekishin squadra group?
Whenever we try, we keep fucking up our timing and people always leave just as the exact number of people we needed shows up.

>>583196345
>Wish I could help but I've never played a MOBA in my life
I hadn't either but Gekishin is pretty easy

>>583196517
The overall is actually 100% needed. If I play with anybody from 4chan or discord i win, if i do solo Q i lose and it's so fucking annoying.

>>583197605
>If I play with anybody from 4chan or discord i win, if i do solo Q i lose and it's so fucking annoying.
That's been my experience too. /dbg/frens are good teammates.

>>583194217
I hope they add on to it. If it's just a straight port then it's just going to be ok.

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No die

>>583194217
>pretty much the exact same (kinda bad) performance.
is the blue dragon one also like that? Cause it's the only one i'm playing and it doesn't have bad performance at all

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Warriors, wake up

Last one, I have to sleep

>>583235775
Cute
>>583220360
Hot

>>583199248
>No Evil Buu
-5

>>583227478
Thankfully I'm not Goku because I would've fucked her and kale right there

>>583177775
>Just like they do with OG DB like Goku didn't go from breaking a car to being stronger than the dude who blew up the moon.
How is that unreasonable? Goku went from being completely untrained in the world's magic system. To being able to match a decrepit old man who is the fourth or fifth weakest tained ki user we ever see on screen.

>>583227478
I wanna touch her hair

>>583247030
At that point in time Muten Roshi is the strongest living martial artist on Earth, surpassed perhaps only by Tsurusennin. Stronger characters introduced later are all outside context problems

>>583249203
Roshi is substantially weaker than Yadjarobi, Tao and Korin. Depending on the definition of on Earth, Kami and Popo are also stronger than Roshi.
Even if he was, prodigy surpasses an unnaturally old man, who is explicitly weaker because of his age, after training, isn't unreasonable.
Basic martial arts training is repeatedly shown to be able to give you the power to destroy the moon in under a decade, for everyone not just Goku. I mean, if you want to consider the rules of the universe working as intended for everyone unreasonable be my guest, I just don't think we should be taking your word on story telling.

>>583250882
>Yadjarobi (sic)
Only encountered ~4 years later, can't be certain he was stronger at that point in time
>Tao Pai Pai
Fair enough
>Karin
He never really gets down from the tower, hard to say if that counts

>>583247030
>How is that unreasonable?
Because it mean he literally got billions of time stronger because it take billion times more energy to blow up the moon than to damage a car.
>the fourth or fifth weakest
Literally nobody was stronger 100% stronger until Tenshinhan showed up.

>>583252525
>No one is more powerful until Tien
Tao and Karin still exist, who can both beat Goku after the 21st World's Martial Arts Tournament, 21st WMAT Goku is equivalent to Roshi, therefore Karin and Tao are stronger than Roshi.
>Because it means he literally got billions of time stronger because it take billion times more energy to blow up the moon than to damage a car.
>If you calculate the real energy needed to destroy the moon...
It's a spiritual spell. The real life Joules needed to move an object faster than the speed of light is infinite, so actually the most absurd power just is Goku learning Instant Transmission, because that technique uses infinite Joules of energy, so Goku became infinitely strong.
Does it matter anyway? The rules are entirely consistent. Yamcha and Krillin in under a decade are also able to fight people who can destroy moons. By learning this universes (primary) magic system you will become a billion times stronger in less than a decade compared to somebody who doesn't. I don't know how that's unreasonable, it's magic and it's internally consistent.

>>583230326
No idea, haven't tried it.
If it runs about the same as the X360 version runs on Xenia, perhaps just a little bit better, then it probably is.

>>583256501
>Tao and Karin still exist,
Tao isn't confirmed stronger than Roshi at his max and Karin is stayed stronger than Goku until Piccolo Daimao died.
>It's a spiritual spell
No, it's an energy attack. Roshi didn't cast a 'destroy moon' that only blow up the moon with no power involved, he put a bunch of martial art power into an energy beam and blew up the moon.
>It's internally consistent
And so were all the other power jumps, you sperg. That's the point people have been shoving into your retarded face for hours.

>>583257440
>And so were all the other power jumps
I sperg out about power jumps? I don't even have a problem wih the Androids which most people have a problem with.
>it's an energy attack
But like a fantast energy attack, because what Dragonball calls energy doesn't have the same properties as real life energy.
>Tao isn't confirmed stronger than Roshi at his max
I don't see how whooping the ass of somebody able to draw Roshi to a near tie. Roshi says he was one hit away from defeat, isn't being stronger than Roshi.

>>583258430
>I don't see how whooping the ass of somebody able to draw Roshi to a near tie. Roshi says he was one hit away from defeat, isn't being stronger than Roshi.
Tenshinhan fought a stronger Goku than the one who stomped Tao and Roshi was still able to push him.

Bump

>>583260680
Good point but Roshi didn't retire until after the 22nd, so 22nd Roshi is stronger the 21st Roshi. We were talking about Roshi being the strogest Martial artist alive and on the planet, during the time he blew up the moon or the volcano.
If we aren't talking about this, then I am schizophrenic.

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>>583260680
>and Roshi was still able to push him.
22nd WT secretly trained, so he's vaguely stronger than before.

>>583251038
>Only encountered ~4 years later, can't be certain he was stronger at that point in time
I don't know why he would be any weaker, but I don’t know why he is as strong as he is to begin with. He doesn't have any glowing personality traits that would seem to make him an ideal candidate for gaining great talent with no guidance or goal, and he is the first... Z warrior to retire. He just lives out in the woods and is at least stronger than anybody (except Ozaru Goku) who was at the 21st WMAT, and that's one of the most ridiculous moments in Dragonball in terms of power jumps.

What's your favorite beam clash?
Mine is probably X4 Kamehameha vs Galick Gun or "BAKA YAROUUUUU" (does that even count?). I know a lot of people are going to say Father & Son but I just find it kinda bland. Even Family Kamehameha has more oomph (but that could also because a heavy rock song is playing in the background)

>>583278196
>What's your favorite beam clash?
Does the giant billion punch shockwaves clash between Goku and Jiren count?

I just really like the message of Cell/Buu with Goku slowly retiring and getting people to defend the earth but then all the sequels completely just throw it to the wind and just say fuck it. Although I think GT (especially a hero's legacy) tries to recover that message again with discouraging the usage of the dragon balls. I think it's a poignant message that that a hero can't always be there and that people should rely on themselves and each other to stop evil. It's a nuance I didn't really catch the few times I've read DB and it's just sad that nu-dragon ball is just "ooooo cool fights". Nothing wrong with it but I do wish there was more meta storytelling in DB.

>>583278196
When Goku Kamehameha's Zamasu so hard he breaks his own arms and briefly uses only his legs to fight before getting BTFO.

Maybe the anime does things differently but why do people fault Goku for putting Gohan against Cell. He knew Gohan had Cell 1v1 easily. The only thing is Gohan suddenly doing talk no jutsu and then getting outnerved because he can't release his true power or whatever. Honestly, wasn't at that time that Gohan could've won against Cell even without going SS2? That's what I always saw it as. It would be a much tighter fight but I think Gohan would have no troubles with Cell until Cell got suped up by zenkai boost.

>>583280526
I am fairly certain SSJ1 Gohan could not beat Cell, certainly not a guaranteed victory.

CC2 really should have made the Daima DLC its own game. Not only that actually, but they should have collaborated with Akio and given it things the anime didn't have time to show, like more worlds in the demon realms, a better boss fight with Tamagami 2, something with Tamagami 1, and the fusion bugs of course.

I've been watching youtube videos of what we have now, and it seems like the only high point are the cutscenes.

>>583281126
idk in the manga he's pretty like meh against cell. he couldn't even believe goku was going full power

>>583279404
The cell message of goku retiring doesnt actually make any sense because the entire inciting incident of that arc is that Goku wasnt there to help and everyone died for it. Goku retiring at all and leaving Gohan to deal with things alone is in of itself nonsense due to Goku himself being bailed out constantly by strong Allies. And Goku is the only one even remotely close to Gohan by thisn point. Goku's arrogance in not killing fat buu when he had the chance directly led to buu saga getting as bad as it was, too. Discouraging the use of the dragonballs is asinine because theyre often used to undo out of context problems that no one had any way of stopping. Are we really going to blame the people of earth for not stopping majin vegeta and kid buu

>>583282521
>The cell message of goku retiring doesnt actually make any sense because the entire inciting incident of that arc is that Goku wasnt there to help and everyone died for it
No but the world ending because Goku was dead doesn't make any sense.

>>583281490
I just played the main story of the 23rd Budokai DLC and I'm kinda bummed Kakarot wasn't an OG Dragon Ball game to begin with.

>>583282061
He didn't belive Goku was going full power because he assumed Goku was stronger than him, which was false. Goku EXPLICITLY states he was going all out. Gohan wasnt able to tap into his rage powers at will, which he says, but at no point is it implied Gohan is just holding back his base power. In fact hes actively trying to get mad at points and isnt really able to. The only time Gohan is explicitly holding back his power is at the very end during the kamehameha clash

>>583282630
I don't know does anybody want to do the Pilaf Saga in game forme? Like genuinely, truly? I would probably attempt to undo some of the damage the anime did, by splitting DB down the center, but like if I could choose an arbitrary starting point for Dragonball it would be the 22nd WMAT.

>>583282612
Neither does Goku's assertion that him being around causes problems. Raditz was going to come to earth whether or not he was dead or alive and trunks is a living fact the androids would have still happened while he was dead. Goku's entire reasoning to pass the torch to Gohan is invalidated by trunks.

>>583283156
BUT!!! The Androids wouldn't have happened if Goku let the Red Ribbon Army destroy the world government.
On a more serious example Piccolo Sr. was released directly as a result of Goku being so strong.

>>583282936
as like an adventure platformer, it and the Red Ribbon Saga are the perfect settings DB-wise. they work for that style of gameplay far more than Z does. for one thing, Goku can't fly. He has the Nimbus but he only uses it to travel long distances, otherwise he sticks to the ground.

>>583279404
I do not think GT makes a good argument that the earth should defend itself without the dragonballs and Goku when GT is extremely Goku centered and the earth is a complete blasted out shithole out of no fault of their own. I also dont really think Buu Sara's message was the next generation when said next generation failed miserably and it was ultimately goku and vegeta who saved the day, not them

>>583283387
I dont think letting pilaf make his wish to take over the earth was a good alternative to that. The Point im trying to make is more that the consequences of Goku's actions have already been set in motion decades ago, running from them now isnt going to help anyone

>>583283520
There's also no point to the vehicles and Nimbus in Kakarot when flying is just the best method.

>Limit Breaker mode
>Japanese dialogue has Kefla calling Gogeta an ossan
>English translation just has her asking if he's a fusion of Goku and Vegeta which she would have no way of knowing
Embarrassing

>>583281490
Yeah, I love that DLC and kept going 'Fuck, that should have been the full game'.
>>583282630
Ground combat improve Kakarot so much, it's unreal

>>583285042
Is there a mod to have japaenese-accurate subs for Sparking? The lolcalized version really make me cringe too much.

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>>583179426
My translation says something different, to start. In my translation Vegeta says he could never surpass Goku, not that Vegeta could never beat Goku. Goku was stronger than Vegeta by an amount, according to everyone including me, and Goku only used 20 hours of the Hyperbplic Time Chamber, while Vegeta and Trunks used the full 48.
And it is in character for Vegeta to underestimate himself at this point in the story. Mind you this is the lead up to the Vegeta that was stronger than Gohan for years leading up to the Buu saga, and was convinced he had barely caught up to Gohan. There is no reason to believe Vegeta is able to accurately gauge his abelites right now, and we don't even know if he really said that.
>>583177902
This one is just wrong, unless we have differences in translation again. The first sentence here is highlighting that the Humans (and probably Piccolo, but we don't explicitly see or hear about him) are about to die (this is continuing from the previous page where they are dying), then he says Vegeta and Trunks are fighting back and won't die any time soon, but points out that Goku because he is tired is in the same danger the humans are in, when otherwise he would have been like Vegeta and Trunks. This is how the sentence structure is, if Cell (and Toriyama) wanted to imply that Goku would have been in a third category he shouldn't have phrased it like that.

>>583286940
>Ground combat improve Kakarot so much, it's unreal
Frankly it was a way better mechanic than the horde battles in the RoF and Bardock DLCs.

>>583288181
I think Horde Battles have potential and can be fun even as is but Bardock spammed them too much and yeah, ground combat is way better.

>>583288564
The problem I have is they just consisted of button mashing harder and occasionally mixing up nuke attacks and the Z Combo (where you have to combo even more so it takes more enemies out). Tried a Level 4 fight in the Prince Vegeta side story out of curiosity and it was more annoying than fun to button mash even harder to beat 1250 enemies which I already one-tapped due to being over-leveled with Sacred Waters.

Wait, if Johnny could scream this good then why does he suck so hard as Broly?
https://x.com/_itsblack00/status/2106432178171367430

>>583287581
The translation that comes with the colored scans that are assumedly from mangadex are of a lower quality, I've explicitly stopped using them due to this. Ive had several anons point out weird translation things that only exist in this version. The ones im posting are, as far as I know, the official english translations

>>583287581
>Mind you this is the lead up to the Vegeta that was stronger than Gohan for years leading up to the Buu saga, and was convinced he had barely caught up to Gohan.
This is because Vegeta straight up has never interacted with Gohan since the Cell Games, and therefore just assumed he kept training. It would be extremely natural to assume Gohan would far outpace him given he had to play extreme catch up compared to Gohan that had an insane head start and looked like that would just get wider. Thats not at all comparable to a Gohan and Goku that he can demonstrably see right in front of him. That aside, Cell himself acts like Vegeta and Trunks havent really gotten much stronger after their second time chamber run. They should be. In fact it makes very little sense that Vegeta wasnt able to catch up to Goku given he knows exactly what Goku did, but whatever

>>583290479
I didn't think I would have to say this, but people like Frieza were able to be sensed a planet away. Buu arc Saiyans who are training should be able to consistently sense each other. Without even trying.
>Cell himself acts like Vegeta and Trunks havent really gotten much stronger after their second time chamber run.
Cell can say that but they are suppressed, and this is the subsaga where Goku asks several people to compare him to Cell and he has to start powering up for them to make that comparison. The only time Cell can make that comparision with actual knowledge is against the Jrs. and again I see no reason to believe Cell thinks Goku could kill a Cell Jr. if Goku was full. Unless other translations say something *entirely* different. In which case please show me.

>>583291836
By this logic Goten and Trunks having super saiyan shouldnt have been a suprise to anyone because they should have been sensed when they went super saiyan but weren't. Whether or not you can ki sense someone is extremely arbitrary and not at all a consistent power in this series and is generally more of a narrative device for dramatic effect than a consistent power

>>583292483
Probably? I think the Buu arc is substantially worse than anything past the 22nd WMAT at least, so pointing out a plot hole isn't going to convince me otherwise. And I don't think that really defeats the other references for Vegeta being at a point where he is underselling himself to the point of delusion. He says he'll never fight again at the end of the Cell Saga for fucks sake. If we are saying Ki sense is inconsistent, why can't I just say Vegeta is improperly sensing Goku and Cell's ki at the Cell Games?

>>583286940
>>583288181
Is there a mod for Kakarot that lets you Ground Combat everywhere and not just in the specific DLCs ?

>>583293037
I mean you certainly could, I cant stop you. That aside, I personally think youre putting way too much value into the second time chamber go around. In my opinion the narrative essentially pretends like that didnt happen as far as it cared. Toriyama knew he wanted to focus on Gohan and Goku during the finale by this point but there would be no reason for Piccolo and Vegeta/trunks to not go into the time chamber, so they do. But they dont factor into the narrative so it doesnt really matter. The status quo from Goku saying hes stronger than Vegeta stands as much as it did before the time chamber because thats the setup for the ending

>>583294736
I don't know I can argue the points, but it sounds like you are sliding back into "what the narrative is trying to say" which I don't care about compared to "what did the narrative say".
Though if Toriyama really didn't want us to take anything from Trunks and Vegeta's Time Chamber Visit it's weird that he had Cell DRAW attention to how well they were doing, when they could have just lost if he truely didn't care.

>>583295097
I mean, Vegeta and Trunks doing a bit well against the cell juniors doesnt really mean anything given all the cell juniors die the next chapter. Especially since that fight is a couple of panels. At least Vegeta gets to do a couple of things at the very end of cell saga so like hes not totally invalidated after goku and gohan leave the time chamber

>>583296310
I mean it definitely shows intent, again as you yourself said there is no plot necessity for them to do that. So the fact that there was active effort spent *just* on showing Vegeta and Trunk's progress.
THERE IS NO OTHER REASON FOR THAT SCENE TO EXIST!!!

>>583294335
There was a mod that you play any character but I don't remember if it ever included something like ground combat everywhere.
Sounds like you'd need to redo the entire game for something like that.

>>583296587
Oh im not saying that theyre not acknowledged as stronger. They explicitly are. Cell even says as much before Gohan is revealed as the new fighter. Im just saying its not really relavent to the narrative, which plods on whether that happens or not. Like one of those fake choices in a jrpg

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>>583278196
This one. I just love the sense of speed it has. You can tell Goku reacted fast before Vegeta even says it... Goku vs Nappa is just way too good in general.

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What would make for good guest characters in a Dragon Ball game?

>>583297291
Sailor Moon and Pretty Cure characters

>>583297291
>>583297365
Amuro Ray, Kenshiro and Astroboy too.

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>>583297291

>>583296798
>Oh im not saying that theyre not acknowledged as stronger
I feel like you did but I can't find that quote anymore, so I guess I imagined it, and that's a bad sign for my memory. Though to the best of my knowledge, I never said it was plot relevant. Just that it was.

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Gohan and Goku (1/2)
>>583178102
I think that is a valid interpretation of that dialogue in a vacuum. "I can't imagine being stronger than you, so you had to be holding back" but that ignores the entirely valid possibility of "I can't imagine being on your level, so you have to be holding back". Which I think is silly, I can't imagine with the events presented that Gohan is any more than 1.5x times Goku base to base, I mean you say Gohan is holding back before he snaps (like a cop with a gun to a suspect with a knife) but did Gohan nerf his durability intentionally here? Even if we commit to "that first part wasn't a real fight because Gohan refued to seriously attack" Why didn't he seriously defend?
>>583179215
Several Dragonball characters have said "I'm going all out" to one character and then later saying "Behold my full power" to a different character, the statement doesn't have to be hyper literal, he isn't nessicarily saying "this is the first time you have literally seen my true speed" but instead saying "you haven't experienced my speed first hand yet, because I was holding back against you"
Zenkai Perfect Cell says he is as strong as SSJ2 Gohan, when the events of the story conclusively prove he fucking isn't and isn't close. So again I don't know if this is a trust worthy character in a trustworthy setting.
But this point doesn't matter as much, as we see on Namek a character like 1.2x another absolutely dominates. Cell holding back a portion of his power to start beating SSJ1 Gohan doesn't mean they are like several times stronger than Goku. I'm not that attached to the idea that Gohan base to base is relative to the other Sayians, and it's completely irrelevant for todays topic.

Gohan and Goku (2/2)
>>583297824
>>583175803
>Remember that they're not just matching gohan+ SS2 but Gohan+SS2+his rage boost. That's a huge gap
This statement isn't something I pushed back on when I should have. Gohans Rage boost is incredibly inconsistent on how much is boosts him. I doesn't help that we don't have non-suppressed non-enraged power levels to compare against most of the time.
And the idea that they all surpassed that state comes from Vegeta right? Vegeta's whose ability to dictate who is stronger than who is probably the worst in the series?
But I just don't know how we can know what the rage boost did, it's always short lived, so it is definitely gone by the time Zenkai Perfect Cell shows up. We know Zenkai Cell is nebulously stronger than Perfect Cell (he says he is as strong as SSJ2 Gohan but like reread the scene he definetly isn't) and Gohan still beats Zenkai Cell's ass after Cell got a powerful cheap shot that explicitly tired Gohan out. Either form of Perfect Cell is just to sand bag like for SSJ2 Gohan, for us to tell what the difference between rage boosted SSJ2 Gohan is vs normal SSJ2 Gohan. I just don't see where the rage boost being a several times increase in this case comes from.
I am a little less confident in my 2x maximum, which was already based on the most generous assumptions I can see 3x being a possibility, perhaps if I squint. If you absolutely want to high ball the 7 year gap, but I don't know why you would want to do that, since as was mentioned at the start of all this, the 7 year gap having too much of a power increase was an example of an inconsistency.

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>>583297291

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DBS is so shit lol

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>>583290041
His voice simply doesn't match Broly. He's a good Ichigo, But he cannot fill in the void Vic left behind. They need to find a VA that can closely match Vic like how the showrunners replaced Roiland for the rick and morty show.

>>583297824
Ngl anon if we're just going to be nitpicking and questioning what literally every single character says as possibly false theres not much of a conversation to be had here because no one anything says matters so why analyze it. Vegeta could be wrong, cell could be wrong, goku and goku could be wrong, GOD could be wrong. I dont really care to argue anymore. Youre not objectively incorrect that they could be wrong, but its such a narrative thought terminator that theres just nothing to discuss

Where is this idea that Vegeta is so hyper dogshit at judging powerlevels that his statements in terms of judging power can NEVER be used anyways. I never got the idea that outside of his moments of pride autism that he was just this hyper dogshit power judger. Toriyama treats him as relatively smart when not blinded by pride

>>583298330
I always thought it was funny that Bulma's hairstyle changed after the 3 years timeskip. Not even a post-apocalyptic world stops her.

>>583301946
It's not just that they could be wrong. It's that they appear to be wrong based on the events presented around their statements or their character has clear motivations to be untruthful.
Dabura could not be as strong as Cell, I only think that because because one of the Sayian's said that, I have no other references, but why would the Sayians be untruthful.
Isn't "we need to take anything a character says as 100% truth even if it is explicitly contradicted in the same chapter/volume" thought terminating?
Vegeta and Cell are strongly delusional characters, I don't know why we are takin their word on a topic they are clearly emotionally invested in as gospel. I didn't discount Cell's words about the Cell Junior fight because the actual events on panel agreed with him, where as most of the other things Cell say are contradicted by the events.
I skimmed my own text I am certain I never said Goku or... goku (?) were wrong. In fact I think Goku is right since in his internal monolog says that he thinks Gohan can't beat Cell unless Gohan gets mad and "something happens".

>>583301204
I feel like Vic wasn't that good as far as screams go when he played Super Broly. But he can still play the hell out of an evil Broly. Johnny can't do that, he can't scream, don't even really like his good Broly voice.

I still firmly believe Bryce Papenbrook would have fit the best. His screams are 1-1 with Bin's, I'd say he can do a (calm) DBS Broly's voice well, I just think he'd have some trouble with movie 8 broly.
https://youtu.be/ZL8-S8S9KXw?t=73
https://youtu.be/iHBMXCNYzR4?t=79

>>583303781
Vegeta is only strongly delusional when hes blinded by pride, other than that he is generally taken as quite smart and outright quoted to be a genius by several characters in the narrative. Therefore I take Vegeta's statements in late cell saga as direct exposition and I have no reason to believe otherwise. Cell lying about not using his true speed directly contradicts the set up beforehand where Gohan says he can outright handle cell at the level Goku was fighting him at. Im personally not going to dig into the 2x or 3x seven year gap growth figure because I personally believe trying to definitively plot out growth in a setting that gives so little of a shit about consistent growth curves is a fools errand

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>>583303440
>I never got the idea that outside of his moments of pride autism that he was just this hyper dogshit power judger.
Even in those moments he can realize pretty quick how outmatched he is. Against 2nd form Freeza he realized right away he wouldn't win, and while he was confident he could take on 4th form Freeza, one speed blitz later and he realized he's going to lose and got desperate. Even against Perfect Cell when "Super" Vegeta's ego was near its peak, he realized Cell was holding back after a few blow exchanges. About the only time he never accepted he was outmatched was against 18.

>>583304343
Vegeta was allowed to dig deep into the archives of copium since he cant sense her power level so all he needs is one more energy barrage bro just one more this one will kill her bro I swear

>>583304343
It seems like youre not able to actually tell how much power someone truly has in this series until they actually start using it, even with ki sensing. At best you can tell theyre holding back but not much more than that. Unless you're Korin. He just KNEW how strong cell actually was somehow, hes that good

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>>583304238
>I take Vegeta's statements in late cell saga as direct exposition and I have no reason to believe otherwise
Let's start simple. What about picrel? Is that direct exposition and litteraly true? I think we can build an understanding of Vegeta's mind state and his less than truthful statements but only if we except that this is untrue (the author intended it to be untrue at the time) and Vegeta knows it (on some level) but said it anyway.
>>583303440
I wouldn't say never, just not usually.
>And the idea that they all surpassed that state comes from Vegeta right? Vegeta's whose ability to dictate who is stronger than who is probably the worst in the series?
Was mostly (but not entirely) a meme.

>>583305321
Yes, I would take that as directly true until the extenuating circumstances of Buu saga changed vegeta to break that promise. But it was in fact direct exposition to setup the status quo of the start of buu saga (toriyama actually probably did intend for that to be literally true until the gohan SoL stuff stopped working for him so this in general is a weird example depending on what way you look at it. Toriyama did likely intend that to be true at the time but with further context its untrue)

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>>583297170
>>583304878
An after-image?!

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>>583278196
Goku vs Wheelo

>>583305618
That's crazy. You misunderstand Vegeta's charscter arc so badly. And also the explicit events of the story as they happened.
Vegeta isn't forced to fight, Vegeta willingly inserts himself in the 25th WMAT. And of course, immediately after this event, Vegeta started training harshly again for a fight for seven years straight. Not the action of man who truly believes he will never fight again. Though I guess I am not allowed to question characters, even when they say "I will never fight again" before beginning to train for fighting and then showing up to a fight at the first open invitation.

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>>583304658
>since he cant sense her power level so all he needs is one more energy barrage bro just one more this one will kill her bro I swear
Kek. Yeah. Plus Vegeta's had just used super saiyan to kill an android that destroyed Goku (Even if Goku was in no fighting condition because of heart virus), and 18 is a woman, to hurt his pride more. Vegeta's ego was at its highest it's ever been, so his copium was stronger than ever too.

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Human Dr. Wheelo

>>583306336
I'm pissed that such a kino looking design has been tossed into the Heroes blackhole. He's not canon so XV3 won't do anything with it, every non-Dokkan game is allergic to Heroes for some reason, and even if that changed, he's not relevant enough to make it into any of them, this sucks.

>>583306295
Im very much so aware that he wasnt forced to fight and that he did the whole majin vegeta stuff out of a weird midlife crisis? Thats not what I was implying with my statement. I was saying that the whole "I will never fight again line" was something vegeta actually meant to keep aside from the extenuating circumstances of goku coming back for the budokai. I was also talking in a meta sense that when vegeta said that. It was supposed to be directly true in the same way that Goku wasnt supposed to come back and that happened due to toriyama's shifting desires during buu saga

Seven year gap vegeta is also weird in the sense that we don't really know how much weaker he is than goku. You can have him straight up not have super saiyan 2 at all until babidi to just being a bit weaker than goku base wise and both are kind of valid ( i believe the latter one because vegeta not getting 2 is so slanderous I just gotta give it to him)

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>>583305212
>It seems like youre not able to actually tell how much power someone truly has in this series until they actually start using it, even with ki sensing.
If someone can repress their ki then it's typically hard to tell. Heck, Freeza can't supress ki, and Goku of all people utterly failed at realizing how strong Freeza is, to the point he wasn't sure if Freeza was bluffing about using only about 50% of his power. But this is the same franchise where characters completely forget how to sense ki after an attack that covers their opponent in dust, so it's whatever's more dramatic at the moment, I guess. It does make the most sense you can only get a good feel during a fight at least, it would be a lot more boring if characters could accurately measure their opponents so completely all the time too so it's for the best...

>Unless you're Korin. He just KNEW how strong cell actually was somehow, hes that good
The Korin case came out of nowhere too. Where was that measurement when he sent Goku to kill Piccolo Daimaoh? Cell saga also suddenly had Krillin be super good at sensing ki just to let the audience know that both Cell and Trunks were holding back (The latter is particularly surprising since all Trunks did since he got there was throw one kick), the same Krillin who utterly failed at realizing Goku was much stronger than Recoome, Jeice and Burter.

Ive come up with a schzio completely nonsense take that I can buy that Vegeta didnt have ss2 before babidi within the context of the majin vegeta fight specifically because I dont think toriyama wrote goku with the intention that he had ss3 yet. But any more context past that point I change it to the "he meant his base was lower" version of the headcanon to give vegeta a little bit

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>>583307261
Vegeta had to have SS2 for him to get frustrated with Gohan and go
>I will deal with Dabura instead

>>583308110
Why? Gohan might have been fighting Dabura in SSJ1 and if that's true Vegeta doesn't need SSJ2 to beat Dabura.
I do not agree to be clear, I just think that's bad evidence

>>583308275
I dont believe in gohan using 1 against dabra because then why doesnt he just go 2 despite clearly struggling. He does it just fine in the budokai

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>>583308110
I believe Dabura is a jobber who Goku and Vegeta can handle with just SS1. Goku and Vegeta both say they could handle Dabura just fine, but those conversations happened before Vegeta learned Goku can go SS2 as well, so maybe just SS1 is enough. Daima pretty much confirms this (As a weaker Goku can handle Tamagamis just fine with only SS1, and they're all explicitly stronger than Dabura) and doesn't really contradict the OG manga.

>>583308551
Why does Vegeta fight Pui Pui in base, and why does Goku primarily use base against Yakon

>>583309212
Theyre very clearly dicking around in those fights, though. Gohan's fighting for his life and is having genuine trouble. Goku didnt HAVE to feed Yakon until he exploded. Honestly im not sure why he even did that, bored I guess.

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>>583308551
After the tournament, Gohan is never drawn with the SS2 lightning aura again. Even against Buu he's not drawn with it, despite two chapters that have Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan transformed, have Goku and Vegeta with it, and Gohan without it. Toriyama just randomly cucked Gohan out of SS2.

>reading back on the Yakon fight
>Goku claims he's able to tell what he's doing by reading air currents
Goku what the fuck are you talking about you can sense ki. Maybe he was just shitposting extra hard to make this even remotely a challenge

>>583309935
I honestly dont know what to do with this information. What did Toriyama mean by this

>>583309972
In the Japanese text?

>>583309972
>Goku what the fuck are you talking about you
He learned that back in OG DB.
>you can sense ki.
He can also light up the place with his aura, doesn't mean he HAD to do it;

>>583310120
No? In the english translation, I cant read Japanese.

>>583309457
>Gohan's fighting for his life and is having genuine trouble.
Is that true? Gohan is struggling a little but, I don't think he would die. Vegeta gets mad because he spent the last seven years thinking Gohan was the strongest and that he was finally back on the level (or he didn't according to one anon) only to find he passed Gohan a long time ago.
Goku doesn't see any need to end the fight with Dabra. It's just Vegeta's ego caught q stray from the fight.

>>583310207
I'm just wondering what was originally said.

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>>583309972
>Goku what the fuck are you talking about you can sense ki.
There's something abnormal about the ki of Babidi's minions and he couldn't sense them (Even though just seeing Dabura's attacks made Goku realize he's a jobber)

>>583310306
Gohan is panting and out of breath pretty hard after he blocked dabura's sword. It'd be pretty weird if he was just larping around for a challenge by this point

>>583309972
Toriyama zig-zagged on this matter with the years
>Vegito mocks Buu for trying to blind him with smoke when he can sense ki
>in DBS tons of years later 17 mocks everyone for relying on sensing ki and not using their five senses

>>583310443
>>in DBS tons of years later 17 mocks everyone for relying on sensing ki and not using their five senses
That's because more fuckers in DBS just have a 'can't sense me' skill like the Trio De Danger.

>>583310365
Is Dabra a jobber? He's stronger than a represtative Super Sayian of the arc, even Piccolo is weaker than the base Sayians now.
>>583310397
Maybe I just don't remember anything ever.

If toriyama's goofy ass didnt have Gohan show off super saiyan 2 for 5 seconds in the budokai we wouldnt even need to be having this conversation and just assume he cant access it

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>>583310306
>>583310397
Dabura confidently says later he can beat Gohan, and judging by Gohan's reaction, he's not supposed to be wrong. Dabura never seriously hurt Gohan, but given the way he casually outsmarted Gohan and got a few hits even while distracted by what Vegeta's saying, he's the stronger of the two, even if not overwhelmingly so.

Actually now that ive said that, SS2 Gohan in the Budokai feels like one of those toei anime fillers thats immediately contradicted and forgotten about but it happened in the manga

>>583310397
>>583310819
Dabra is shaking after Gohan blocks the sword as well. And Babadi is disappointed in Debra's performance.

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>>583310684
>Is Dabra a jobber? He's stronger than a represtative Super Sayian of the arc, even Piccolo is weaker than the base Sayians now.
For Goku he is.

>>583310870
>Actually now that ive said that, SS2 Gohan in the Budokai feels like one of those toei anime fillers thats immediately contradicted and forgotten about but it happened in the manga
Vegetto being turned into candy is the same thing. It makes no sense that Buu decided to turn him back instead of choosing another piece of candy (Like say, ice cream to make Vegetto melt). It really shows just how loose the Buu saga editor was.

>>583310365
Wasn't that just because Spopovich and Yamu were normal humans hard carried by Babidi's boost and didn't have any actual power themselves? Only Spopovich has this weird mention and the cast can sense Dabura being Cell-tier just fine.

>/dbg/'s brains melt in real time as they try to make sense of buu saga

>>583311286
They could also just be judging his combat prowess like he is an Android. Gohan also gets blindsided like he can't sense Dabra.
>>583310819
Dabra also pisses himself when Gohan goes all out and shoots the ball with generic beam.

>>583311436
>brains melt
It all make sense to me, you guys just have skill issues.

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>>583310085
Gohan got retconned to be (even) weaker after Toriyama decided to make Goku the MC again. Spopovich and Yamu first talk about how they were looking for *him* but later Babidi wonders where they got the energy.

I honestly just have to believe Gohan wasnt supposed to have 2 or something. We can argue back and forth about whether or not he was struggling against dabura, but him not pulling it out at any point against buu or his egg is indefensible. What the fuck was toriyama cooking?

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>>583311101
>>583311446
Like I said, the difference isn't that big. Dabura was handling Gohan just fine by outsmarting him and getting a few hits in, but the difference isn't that big, as he can't overpower Gohan at all when he uses his sword and Babidi complains he hasn't done much damage. It's like Dabura's power level is a 8002 while Gohan's is 8001. But I can't blame someone for making the argument that Dabura isn't stronger at all too and that's also fine. I shouldn't have said "he's the stronger of the two", and instead said he's possibly the stronger of the two.

But have you considered Babadi's ship is the best the Buu arc gets?

>>583312136
I actually quite like the coreography of gotenks versus super buu

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>>583311659
>Gohan got retconned to be (even) weaker after Toriyama decided to make Goku the MC again.
I find it funny Shin's reaction to a SS2 Gohan is a subdued "He's stronger than I thought", but he's flabbergasted at how strong base Vegeta is. You could make a slander about base Vegeta being just that much stronger than SS2 Gohan kek. I do believe Toriyama nerfed Shin after the tournament, otherwise he's just a living, breathing anti-statements to himself and Piccolo by extension.

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>>583309935
He gets it here and explicitly states he's gone beyond SS. What the fuck are you guys going on about?

>>583312608
Anon he explicitly says "after the tournament" that is the tournament he was talking about. Gohan is revealed to be able to go ss2 at will and never once uses it in the rest of buu saga ever

Do you guys think we'll ever get that Planet Sadala arc one day?

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>>583312136
I personally prefer
>Buu's rampage on Earth and just how weird his morals are
>Satan being the one who stops Fat Buu's rampage
>SS3 Gotenks vs Super Buu
>SS3 Goku vs Kid Buu

>>583312938
I'd be surprised if they don't do that. It's easy money. More Saiyans, Kefla comes back, they can do whatever with Goku and Vegeta from having them fuse to giving one or both of them a new form, it's a cashcow.

>gohan doesnt even use 2 to pull out the z sword
Im going insane does he truly never use it even once after the budokai appearance

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>>583313635
I at least haven't seen any random panel with him having a lightning aura after the tournament. Not even when he powers up to kill Buu before his egg hatches does he get that aura. Like I said before, Gohan was just randomly cucked out of SS2.

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>>583192331
So I'm kinda conflicted, on one side I want to get Sparking! ZERO on Steam because I loved Budokai Tenkaichi 2 when I was a wee lad, but I also remember it being very repetitive after doing the main campaign-tournament thing, and then just spamming Gogeta SSJ4 in every other mockup match.
Xenoverse 2 on the other hand looks significantly uglier, and the gameplay looks worse than BT (not that I can tell the difference tbqh), but it has a boatload of singleplayer content that I can totally see myself enjoying for hundreds of hours.
Soooo what should I buy then? I kinda like both, but I don't care about online payvaypay against spics and weebified negroes.

>>583315107
XV2 has a lot more content if you buy everything. Sparking Zero just has story mode, tournaments and Limit Breaking Journey.
Journey has a lot of content but less than XV2 and it's mostly grinding. Story mode is neat in concept but is far from big enough.

>>583316952
Mmh, alright I am considering Xenoverse 2 today and then SZ for Christmas.

>>583317652
There's also the fact XV2 is done while SZ might get more stuff later

>>583312136
Frankly I like the whole segment from Super Buu going to the Lookout to him "self-destructing" against Gohan more.

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Pan wearing her mama's most famous outfit

>>583321853
Very cute and hot
>That quote
What team would Pan use?

>>583323160
Stantler, Beedrill, Infernape, Lucario, Sawsbuck, Hypno

>>583321853
Lewd

pinky up

>>583305863
lel

I pray everyday that the Super manga will never continue and if it does Toyotaro won't be the one drawing it

>>583323634
Hypno has been replaced as the pedophile pokemon for a while now

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>>583346316
When the leak about Typhlosion gets referenced by Game Freak themselves it makes me so fucking uncomfortable. That is a franchise for children and they are referencing rape fiction that is technically official and never made it out for obvious reasons.

>>583347476
But it didn't when TPCi referenced the Hypno shit?

Gohan never actually had super saiyan 2 in buu saga. Bulma felt bad so she gave him a lightning generator for his super saiyan form but it broke when yamu and sppopovich jumped him

>>583307261
No Vegeta has to have SSJ2 since he thinks he is stronger than Gohan, and Vegeta can't know Gohan has lost SSJ2 if Gohan truly has.

>>583350696
I mean, he reacts to gohan being weaker than he was at the cell games when he goes 2 for the first time and thats when their powers are first directly compared. But as we've elucidated, its a weird scene

>>583348951
At least with Hypno he is a "bad guy" Pokemon. You are meant to root against him, and having him on your team handicaps you compared to better mons. (in later gens than gen 1) Typhlosion is a starter that nearly 5 million people have used at least once when playing the games.

Gohan actually absorbed the power of super saiyan 2 into his base super saiyan. A saiyan beyond super saiyan if you will. GENIUS toriyama subtly oreshadowed this during the super saiyan 3 speech

>>583351331
What is happening am I the only one who knows there are parts of the Buu saga before Babadi shows up? Vegeta says he thinks he has surpassed Gohan when Vegeta says he is going to enroll in the 25th WMAT. Vegeta wouldn't think he could beat Gohan if he didn't have SSJ2

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>>583315107
>>583317652
xv2 is a completely different game than sz
it's an mmo with a character creator and coop online battles (raids)
sz is just BT4
a very loud minority of people plays xv2 for the pvp and online ladder, while SZ is played by casuals and people that just want to mash buttons vs cpu
the combat may seem the same, but XV2 is much more of an rpg than SZ, which in turns is just a fightan ps2 era game with mite b cool graphix

>>583351984
To be fair, vegeta does already think Gohan's been slacking off on his training by this point so even without 2 he could think he has the edge. Ultimately I agree he probably does have 2, its just a funny argument you can make for slander reasons. (Its also slightly more impactful in terms of vegeta complaining about Goku being stronger than him. If it truly was a fairly small gap I dont think hed let babidi in, you know)

>>583352653
Sparking Zero has raid battles as well

>>583298330
Trunks' treatment in Super is why you should NEVER listen to fans or bring back a beloved character once their character arc is done. Akio Iyoku is an idiot for recommending bringing him back.

Also, you could literally write the Zanasu arc without the convoluted tike travel plots. I have no idea how this shitty arc got approved but Trunks had no place being there when Zanasu's feud was with Goku and the Gods' complacency. You could very easily write Zamasu as an antagonist in the present timeline and have him steal Goku's body there as he causes destruction on Earth which forces Vegeta into the protagonist position alongside a rusty Gohan who's been training on the side, Piccolo and Goku in Zanasu's body (if Zamasu fails to kill him). You could even have Bulma head off with Beerus and Whis in search of the Super Dragon Balls to give Goku back his body, making Zamasu's arc feel like Namek again with Zamasu being a more competent Ginyu.

The moment you introduce time travel in your story is where I can tell you've run out of ideas.

>>583354417
>The butcherer the character when they brought them back, so you should never bring a character back
Brother

>>583355146
Trunks' character arc ended when he killed the Androids and restored peace to his world. He started out as a boy who was dependent on Gohan, Goku and Vegeta. Him stopping using his sword is symbolic too because it represents his reliance on an external tool or a gift from a mentor/past figure powerfully signaling that he had finally unlocked his own inner Saiyan strength and could stand alone. Once your character's arc is don, there's nothing to be told and they're effectively a dead character.

Super didn't bring Trunks back because it had an interesting arc to tell about him, he was ONLY brought back because of cheap nostalgia and fanservice that exists to maximize profits and make new toy lines for Trunks. Everything about his comeback is a cynical business move. I cannot stress enough how authors should never listen to fans or their idiot editors (like Akio Iyoku) and stay uncompromised, because bringing Trunks back fundamentally compromised the weight of his original happy ending; to make him relevant again, the writers had to completely undo the peace he fought so hard to achieve, torturing his timeline further just to justify his presence in a story arc that could very easily function without him.

>>583356319
I dont think it was ever actually said that he got his sword from gohan or something, did he? He only ever had it after he died

>>583351373
Team Rocket used 35 out of the 149 pokemon available in the main campaign. That's almost a quarter of pokemon. Even avalible to be used, and that's ignoring pokemon that are hard to catch like the legendary birds or the safari zone 4, and of course Onix. I do not think that "if team rocket uses a pokemon the player is supposed to hate and not use that pokemon" is a reasonable read of the game. What about Rattata?

>>583283609
it was the spirit bomb and oob (metaphor for u) is groomed to be the next defender of earth.

>>583356867
I dont think oob was a metaphor for anything other than the redemption of kid buu specifically. GT sure as shit didn't treat him like some sort of audience surrogate

>>583356319
I think the metaphor about Trunks' sword representing that kind of falls apart given trunks doesnt actually rely on his sword, as shown by king cold, and It cant be all that important to him because he doesnt give a fuck that its destroyed after fighting 18. Androids saga in general gives no specific reason as to why Trunks uses a sword, he just kinda does

>>583357152
Well obviously not but I'm strictly talking about the toriyama original run in the manga. (the whole conversation is literally about Cell/Buu in the manga although I admit I confused the argument by bringing GT in it. It is not moving the goalpost, it was more of adding the removing the dragon balls). Oob was meant to be a surrogate for the future. Someone to pass the baton to.

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>>583356761
Buddy, I think the part about Hypno being a pedophile that kidnaps children is the part that makes him a bad guy. Not that Team Rocket grunts use him.

>>583357863
I guess. Though overall I do not care for the idea of Goku passing the baton on because the series already tried that and failed. Super just kind of ignoring it is for the best. You pass the baton on when youre slowing down and becoming less capable which Goku isn't really

Side question but I see it a lot and it sorta frustrates me. Why do most Dragon Ball fans use Super/GT material when discussing Dragon Ball? (like if we're strictly talking about Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z). They always point on Super's retcons and go SEE SEEE IT WAS ALWAYS LIKE THIS and it's just like....dude the series was made like decades after the original ended, that obviously wasn't the original intent.
>>583358340
It's more so Goku will eventually die just like Dragon Ball will eventually end, but there's still something to look forward to. Be hopeful for the future and stuff like that.

>>583358670
Oob is not something to look forward to. Im not even one of the racist anons but "buu with all of the power and none of the actually interesting parts of his anatomy" inspires nothing in me

>>583358840
it's metaphorical bro.... it's not like literally LOOK FORWARD TO OOB story, it's look forward to YOUR story.

>>583356319
Also, to further add, the biggest flaw of that shitty Goku Black arc is that it lacked thematic focus. In the official version, Goku Black is just an evil Goku who spouts generic god complex monologues. If you kept Goku alive inside Zamasu's body and let the story take place in the present timeline, you turn the arc into a psychological and physical puzzle rooted deeply in the core of Dragon Ball's martial arts philosophy, because it forces Goku to rely on his battle IQ as he knows his own body better than Zamasu does which Vegeta and the others can exploit.

He could tell Vegeta where his body is at its strongest, where it's at its weakest. Or him saying he's naturally inclined to physical combat in his original body but still needs work on the Ki department and so Vegeta just has to stall Goku Black in his Super Saiyan Rose form until he tires out as Goku initially had stamina problems with Super Saiyan Blue that Vegeta smartly overcomes by switching between God and Blue. Basically, Vegeta is acting as the muscle while Goku acts as the "coach." Vegeta would also relish this because he gets to beat up Kakarot, yet it would also build a profound mutual respect. Then add Gohan who's been training with Piccolo on the side, and his comeback to the Tournament of Power feels like a natural extension to his arc.

Then throw in Bulma who travels with Beerus and Whis in search of the Super Dragon Balls to restore Goku's body, and you've basically got Namek arc again but with a more dangerous, more competent Ginyu.

I honestly have no idea what Future Trunks even has anything to do with Zamasu's agenda when it's about Goku and the Gods.

>>583359135
I dont really agree that oob was even supposed to be an audience surrogate in buu saga, though. Where's that idea coming from. He doesnt even have a u in his name in the "correct" spelling

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0ZNZqVUk7g

>>583357939
>him
I mean morally of course. Obviously morally, but if we are talking about morally then there isn't a distinction to be drawn. (Except that Typhlosion's are hotter so it becomes acceptable if the victim is male). I thought he was making the point that Hypno is pokemon that isn't meant to be on the players team, especially when he is contrasting against the fact that Typhlosion is a starter.
I don't think you are supposed to be avoiding it. Especially when you consider it's one of two catchable psychic types before you get the Super Rod, and the other one is Abra, who is rarer and harder to catch.
This used to say one of the two psychic types available in the campaign, but then I remembered Jinx, then I remembered Exeggcute, then I checked the psychic types available in Gen 1 and there were three other lines who are Psychic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJvocEV8Bnc

I find it incredible that DBS had at times a rough OST early on, but it improved so much by the end. Ultra Instinct's theme became the franchise's most recognizable song, much like Megalomania is Undertale's... Hopefully Moro's arc doesn't spam it.

>>583347476
God, what a pussy

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Why did Future 18 kill Krillin?

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Wow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMnOJP59FrI

>>583367683
He refused to have sex with her

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What should I choose between Xenoverse 2 or Sparkling! Zero or Kakarot? Bandai doesn't accept purchase from my country so the seven sea is my only choice.

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/dbg/ is playing in the final day of vglvgl competition today. come check us out! https://cytube.implying.fun/c/vgleague

>>583356319
>never listen to fans or their idiot editors (like Akio Iyoku) and stay uncompromised
You hate the Android Saga? Like 90% of the Android Saga is Yū Kondō's ideas, that Toriyama resented.
>Everything about his comeback is a cynical business move.
That's like literally all media, publishers are almost exlusively after money. It's not about intention by which wirters/illistators/directors are allowed to work, it's about if they can find a meaningful arc. Which DBS doesn't have, hence me being the one to post DBS is so shit.

>>583372074
>Like 90% of the Android Saga is Yū Kondō's ideas, that Toriyama resented.
Isn't it just Cell related?
>Cell looks bad. Of course, he can transform
>Semi Perfect Cell looks like a moron. Hurry up and make him transform into the cooler Perfect form
Replacing Gero/19 with 16/17/18 were Torishima's suggestions, and replacing them with Cell was also Torishima IIRC.

>>583357454
I think he uses a sword because Toriyama wanted to put a Dragon Quest character in and nobody could stop him.

>>583371961
Nice, I finally caught a match!

>>583371961
GOGETA!

This match is hype

>>583375156
We're keeping it 1000.

>>583374123
Sorry I just heard it was one of Toriyama's editors, I assumed it was his direct editor not the editor-in in chief.
The specific man doesn't really matter though, the point is it was some souless editor who made that Saga what it is.

>>583375809
The androids saga stuff was from torishima, toriyama's FORMER editor, who was not his editor at the time. He literally just called up toriyama to bitch him out about the designs of every cell saga antagonist from gero to cell until perfect cell happened and toriyama just did it lmao

>>583376178
If not for Kondo's advice to hurry and get Semiperfect Cell out of the story, lead to Vegeta's Final Flash happening as it did and also Trunks vs Cell happening as it did, which are iconic and praised parts of the Saga. Do you think these scenes were a mistake?

>>583377298
I mean, if 19 and 20 remained the main protagonists we would have gotten a completely different story thats entirely impossible to compare to the one we got, who knows what iconic scenes would have come out of that. Besides its not like the constant merry go round of antagonists didnt come with casualties. 17 and 18 are kind of in this weird place where they're nowhere near as interesting as the antagonists before or after them and lack meaningful gimmicks to make them interesting. Toriyama just also sets up the idea of the androids being different due to the butterfly effect but never really pays off on it. (Also who is out here saying that trunks versus cell is one of the highlights of cell saga, its barely a fight)

I also wonder if the "16 is Gero's son" stuff was ever actually going to show up in the series or if that was always supposed to be this weird background lore. who knows in general what Toriyama was gonna do with 16

>>583378843
It was referenced in Super Hero

>>583379538
I'm aware, but what I was wondering was if that was a scrapped plot point from androids saga before the antagonist got switched to cell, or was that always supposed to be background lore you were never supposed to know even if 16/17/18 remained the final antagonists

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>>583379942
not sure why I find this funny but i'm saving it anyways

>>583379942
Hanasiabros...

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Help, I think I'm getting waifuism

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>>583378331
>I mean, if 19 and 20 remained the main protagonists we would have gotten a completely different story thats entirely impossible to compare to the one we got, who knows what iconic scenes would have come out of that.
Sure maybe it could have been good, but do you consider the current Cell Saga a mistake, you said you a writer should never be tied down by their editor. The Cell portions (at least) of the Cell Saga are the result of Toriyama being dragged around by his editor, so logically if an editor should never be listened to, these parts have to be a mistake right?

>>583380527
I am not the anon who said that, you're talking to the completely wrong guy. That being said I do have a lot of problems with Cell Saga and think it's probably my least favorite Z Saga. It's impossible to know what would've happened without Torishima's interference. But as said, Torishima was NOT his editor at the time, he was just someone who gave is unsolicited advice and Toriyama took it.

Does Cell have Piccolo Sr's cells or does Piccolo Jr. have the ability to create demons and he just doesn't use that ability ever?

>>583381071
I think it was said in an interview that the Cell Juniors stuff was actually from 18. I don't want to think about what Toriyama meant by that

>>583371961
we will be playing /hanny/ in about 3 matches in the semi finals

>>583380681
>But as said, Torishima was NOT his editor at the time, he was just someone who gave is unsolicited advice and Toriyama took it.
And I accepted that I was wrong, and changed to specifically taking about things like the Final Flash which wouldn't have happened with out the advice of Kondo (for real this time), or at least would have been in an entirely different context.

>>583381359
And like that was fair enough, really. I do like the Final Flash it's a cool moment. But ultimately I really think Kondo should have put his foot the fuck down and told Toriyama to stop changing around the antagonists

>>583287082
Only character and move names. Retranslating the whole script is too high effort for now

>>583382458
That's a shame cause the localized subs are so awful

Really undersells Goku's strangeness if drugs exist that can give you animal traits

>>583290157
>the official english translations
Viz is far from a trustworthy source for anything, the best available translation for Dragon Ball is the anime subs.

>>583382658
That's the joke. Animal people exist but nobody that's a normal human with just a tail so people find THAT weird.
Also beastmen exist independently from the drug.

>>583382658
I dislike the beastman drug retcon attempt in kakarot because the lack of beastemen was a symptom of dragonball's world in general becoming less wacky. no more old witches holding tournaments, no talking turtles or weird hermits, no pirate's treasure underground, and no magic wish orbs. (these still exist in the current DB earth, of course, but like no new stuff of this type is added going into Z, unless you count Buu I guess)

>>583382701
Are they even saying the exact same lines in the anime to directly compare to the manga like that for reference

>>583383142
Usually yes. There are often more lines added but removing lines is rare

>>583382925
I think the DBS anime actually did some good things with this, like Tenshinhan's dojo in the Jianghu, and #17's monster island getting attacked by alien poachers

>>583382751
It's a shit joke.
>>583382925
No I think it's wrong because it acknowledges the issue instead of slowly starving it. People react to Oolong and Puar like they are unusual, if every fifth person is a beastman it creates problems.

the more people that bring up the furry drug thing the more i'm convinced none of them actually played kakarot

>>583383524
>It's a shit joke.
Cope
>>583382925
There is no retcon, Beastmen stil exist. The game says it directly.

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the animal people retcon drug only exists because toriyama didnt like drawing animal people

he's dead so we can all forget it ever happened, just like daima

>>583384331
I know, I'm saying the drug is used to explain why the amount of beastmen went down dramatically since OGDB, when I'm saying that's a weird thing to focus on because it's a symptom of a wider problem.

>>583309158
>Daima pretty much confirms this (As a weaker Goku can handle Tamagamis just fine with only SS1, and they're all explicitly stronger than Dabura)
Never really thought about this before, interesting. To me that also confirms Gohan being SSJ1 in that fight since he would have to be absurdly weak to perform that badly in SSJ2.

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>>583383246
Well at any rate this is how Cell phrases it in the anime. I still stand by my idea that Goku could probably beat a cell junior if he had a senzu. Especially since Cell claims that Vegeta and Trunks are barely holding their own. That being said, man the anime sure is an entire seperate universe compared to the manga, there's a whole ass yamcha and tien team up to save Goku from some Cell-Juniors. It'd be really neat if not for all the panning shots and glacial pacing.

>>583309158
Daima characters are stronger than their Buu counterparts tho.

>>583384792
Why would a Gohan who is explicitly weaker than he was at the Cell Games be able to go blow for blow and even somewhat overpower a guy who's equivilant to perfect cell (despite it gassing him out heavily) Why would Gohan then later act like he has to tap into his rage boosts to beat Dabura if he truly had 2 into his back pocket. Most egregiously, why does Gohan never use 2 against Buu.

>>583384961
This makes no sense to me because the purpose of the wish to make them weaker than they were in the Boo arc. It didn't make them unthreatening but the whole premise makes no sense to me if they are vastly stronger than what Gomah and Degesu saw on DemonTube or whatever anyway.

>>583356319
The fact that the arc ends with a future timeline with double Trunks/Mai is just so weird. But I guess they don't care because they'll never bother with them again.

>>583385119
>Why would a Gohan who is explicitly weaker than he was at the Cell Games be able to go blow for blow and even somewhat overpower a guy who's equivilant to perfect cell
Because SSJ1 Gohan was stronger than Cell, this is completely consistent
>Why would Gohan then later act like he has to tap into his rage boosts to beat Dabura
SSJ2 and "Gohan's rage" are not clearly separated at this point in time, even the dialogue in the Cell Games could suggest that Gohan was able to transform into SSJ2 before but can't do it reliably

>>583385132
>This makes no sense to me because the purpose of the wish to make them weaker than they were in the Boo arc.
That's Gomah's intent but Gomah is retarded, but also they are weaker because Adult Vegeta is substantially stronger, but that is a retcon cause to see toys of adult SSJ3 Vegeta.

>>583385326
why would Gohan be raging against Kibito, though? He's rather casual in his use of the form and even smugly says "do you want to see my new form, too" What evidence are you using to claim that ss1 Gohan (without the use of his rage) is stronger than perfect cell anyways

>>583385326
>SSJ1 Gohan was stronger than Cell, this is completely consistent
Cell almost broke SSJ1 Gohan's Spine.
Goku said that Gohan needs to get angry to win. Tell me why Goku was wrong?

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>>583378843
Gero never disposed of 16 when he did dispose of previous androids who were failures, and he did briefly hesitate before answering 17's question (In this translation at least), which can be interpreted that there's something personal about 16 and Gero is lying about him being a failure who'll destroy the world. Although he could be hesitating because he's nervous that 17 won't listen and will release 16 still. It's hard to say.

>>583383142
>>583383246
The anime only really removes lines if they changed the context around it. Goku never wonders who Tenshinhan is in the anime's 22nd WT because he met Tenshinhan before in a filler arc, and Gohan doesn't announce to everyone that Goku became a super saiyan in Namek because Vegeta saw Goku as a super saiyan and he mentions it later.

>>583385132
>This makes no sense to me because the purpose of the wish to make them weaker than they were in the Boo arc.
Yeah but 1: It's shown it didn't weaken them as much as planned and 2: It's post-Buu Saga and the characters got stronger in the meantime.
Otherwise they'd have just sent Gohan and Fat Buu.
It clearly follows BOG where SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan and so is Enraged Vegeta.

>>583385587
>why would Gohan be raging against Kibito, though?
He isn't really, it's an odd moment that I will just handwave by saying occasionally the transformation works but not always
>What evidence are you using to claim that ss1 Gohan (without the use of his rage) is stronger than perfect cell anyways
It feels about right me
>>583385663
>Goku said that Gohan needs to get angry to win
In large part because Gohan doesn't use his real power when relaxed, SSJ2 just assures he can stomp Cell with no resistance

>>583385871
anon you cant just handwave away direct evidence to the contrary

>>583385871
Why did Gohan nerf his durability to let Cell crush him?

>>583385945
It's not a scientific situation so yes I can
>>583385956
Because he's a little bitch

>>583385956
Son Gohan the GENEROUS graciously allowed Cell to seal club him for a bit so he can feel like a real Dragonball villain

Super Perfect Cell=SSJ2 Gohan

>>583386229
Get off 4chan, Cell

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>>583378843
>>583385843
This page also says Gero considered 16 a failure but intentionally keeps the reason vague, so Toriyama at least was planning something different for 16 to be considered a failure, but whether he planned on the whole thing of 16 being based on his son back then we'll never know.

>>583386229
Actually this gives me an idea, SPC significantly wounded Gohan(breaking his arm) even though Gohan is obviously vastly stronger, this renders the question about how Perfect Cell was able to harm SSJ1 Gohan irrelevant

>>583386290
Hey my real opinion Is that Super Perfect Cell was stronger than Gohan considering a random Ki blast broke his arm.

>>583386361
>>583386385
The explanation after that was supposed to be that Gohan was caught off guard because he didn't realize how strong Cell had become by this point, innit. As we know, being off guard give you the skyrim sneak attack bonus damage

THIS IS NO GAME.

PREPARE YOURSELF.

YOU AND THE EARTH SHALL BE DESTROYED!

>>583386385
SUPER PERFECT CELL THE MAGNANIMOUS giving the win to a Gohan with half of his ki because he felt bad

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>>583384815
>Especially since Cell claims that Vegeta and Trunks are barely holding their own
That is not what Cell said.
>I still stand by my idea that Goku could probably beat a cell junior if he had a senzu
Maybe but that's not what's implied by what Cell said, even in this anime version, they show all the Human Z warriors fall just before they start talking about the "risk" to the Z warriors that they pose, before Cell notes that Vegeta and Trunks aren't in the same danger as the humans, before saying that Goku is at that same risk because he is tired. it's the same.

>>583386540
This still works in Cell's favor since Gohan used his full power when Cell was distracted by Bejita.

>>583386706
YUP. THAT'S MY FUARKING VILLAIN ALRIGHT.

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>>583386714
that's what it said for the subs I used, So we are once again at an impasse

>>583385956
>Why did Gohan nerf his durability to let Cell crush him?
Because if you don't use your power in DB, it's not active and if your spirit is weak, your body is too.

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>>583386951
Maybe Cell did say that. I don't know what version is correct. I don't think it would matter since we don't know how strong a Cell Jr. is relative to Perfect Cell, so we don't know how Goku should fair. Cell is just pointing out that Goku is going to die soon, along side the humans, leaving Gohan alone with Vegeta which is worse than if eveyone died.
>>583387282
But Frieza wasn't able to hurt Goku, when Goku didn't want to kill Frieza.

I simply believe that Goku must have been able to beat the cell juniors with the senzu because there would have been no narrative reason to deny it to him otherwise. If he truly just would have been in the same position as Vegeta and Trunks with his cell junior then why not just give him one. The anime has this whole thing with Goku being entirely incapable of doing anything even worse than the humans, but that's absent in the manga. Goku would be punching them instead of laying on the floor in that one panel, I guess?

>>583387821
>Cell is just pointing out that Goku is going to die soon, along side the humans, leaving Gohan alone with Vegeta which is worse than if eveyone died.
Isn't everyone going to die, though. Once the Cell juniors are done with the weaker members they're going to gang up on the rest and kill them. Hence Gohan pointing out "everyone other than Trunks has died already and cant be brought back (just ignore the namek balls I guess)"

>>583387821
>But Frieza wasn't able to hurt Goku, when Goku didn't want to kill Frieza.
Goku was in control, Gohan wasn't.

>>583388274
He seemed pretty in control of that fight until Cell used his full speed and couldn't catch up

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>>583387827
Don't worry, Goku (End). Yamcha is here to protect you!

>>583388537
I mean you got to give them some credit it did work there for a second. Toei really likes giving the viewer the benefit of the doubt against someone they're super outmatched against for some reason. They did it later with Gohan and Buutenks too, as well as ss2 Goku versus Kid Buu (though that did have great animation)

>>583388416
He mentally wasn't, he was hesitating, not comfortable with his power, not comfortable letting it out, not sure about taking his dad's place etc.

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>>583384815
>That being said, man the anime sure is an entire seperate universe compared to the manga, there's a whole ass yamcha and tien team up to save Goku from some Cell-Juniors.
Despite Cell's claims about Vegeta and Trunks being the only ones who can hold their own, Piccolo is written as stronger than both of them in the anime since he hit them a total of four times, while Vegeta only hit them twice and Trunks didn't hit them at all. The second one from pic related is even one where a Cell Jr flew in to punch Piccolo from behind but Piccolo grabbed his arm and threw him.

>>583387827
While I do believe Goku could kill one of them, I honestly don't believe he could take out all 7, though it would take out from Gohan's effectiveness if Goku had managed to take out a few before Gohan takes out the rest, which's why he hadn't eaten a senzu.

>>583381220
https://cytube.implying.fun/c/vgleague

>>583388254
>Isn't everyone going to die, though. Once the Cell juniors are done with the weaker members they're going to gang up on the rest and kill them. Hence Gohan pointing out "everyone other than Trunks has died already and cant be brought back (just ignore the namek balls I guess)"
Everyone is going to die, it's just that the humans and Goku are going to die right fucking now, so if you don't get angry right fucking now you are cooked. You have a little more time to save Trunks and Vegeta (and I guess Piccolo but he isn't explicitly mentioned in either category) but they will also die.
Cell is too autistic to just say they are all going to die right now, because he can see that Vegeta and Trunks are in stalemate.
>>583389001
> honestly don't believe he could take out all 7
He wouldn’t have to he would just need to fight 4.

>>583389153
Nice, our matches with /hanny/ are always fun.

>>583388692
These guys should be one shot, even if Tien changed his mind and Krillin and Yamcha silently went into the Chamber after Vegeta, they are still 1/50th of Trunks or Vegeta.

>>583390197
as said, it's one of Those Things Toei likes to do in order to pad out the run time. "guy fights guy he has no business fighting evenly for a little bit until the manga kicks in and he gets shitstomped"

>>583389153
Weirdest goal I've ever seen

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>>583389001
>Piccolo is written as stronger than both of them in the anime since he hit them a total of four times, while Vegeta only hit them twice and Trunks didn't hit them at all.
Also, it's not just about the amount of hits, but how hard Piccolo hit. The Cell Jrs Piccolo hit were knocked into the ground, two that Piccolo threw onto each other needed a few moments to get up, and one fell unconscious for a few minutes after being kicked by Piccolo, on top of Piccolo being the first who manages to hit them back at all. There was a real Piccolofag that episode, even if eventually Piccolo is overpowered by them.

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Super
Saiyan
Three

It's so over

>>583385856
>Otherwise they'd have just sent Gohan and Fat Buu.
Fact they chose to send Piccolo and not Fat Buu is just weird. Toriyama just really has no interest in writing Fat Buu or Gohan...

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Goten would be better off as a girl.

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>>583385326
>Because SSJ1 Gohan was stronger than Cell, this is completely consistent
Lmao.

>>583389890
Jinxed it.

>>583391548
you'd think that at some point in the 4+ years they've trained together Goku would have asked about Gohan's rage boosting and realized it's super inconsistent and not to be relied upon. In fact, after every single time of using it Gohan's nearly immediately super gassed out and that's dangerous because Cell can regenerate

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>>583391846
>In fact, after every single time of using it Gohan's nearly immediately super gassed out and that's dangerous because Cell can regenerate
The one time Gohan's rage overpowered an opponent, that being Raditz, it hurt him a lot but it wasn't nearly enough to put him down. Before Cell, the longest his rage lasted was against 2nd Form Freeza but that did nothing. I do think Goku felt SS2 as a form that would be awakened by rage, so he correctly assumed it wouldn't be used in short bursts like the last times Gohan got rage boosted.

>>583389153
>I finally catch a match
>We get folded
My bad, guys