>>58237825
HMs are garbage

>>58237825
I agree wholeheartedly. Gamefreak took the criticism of HMs and swung way too hard in the opposite direction in response. they were a flawed system, but the concept could have been refined instead of being thrown out the window entirely.

File: __charizard_victor_hoppip(...).jpg (313 KB, 1020x1447)

313 KB JPG

>>58237832
The best solution that I can think is that the Ride Rental system (alola/hisui) keeps being the standar but you could also have the posibility of using some pokemon in your team that also can those jobs.

The option to replace the rented pokemon if you have X specimen in your team.

>>58237825
An example being that large enough water types/good swimmers can be used for Surf, land mounts for faster speed and maybe a jump button, flying mounts to fly and being able to send out Pokémon to destroy or move obstacles in your way i.e. Machamp destroying a boulder with its fists or Meowstic moving it with telekinesis.

HMs could be refined into a tutor minigame you play with a Pokemon, and upon completion that Pokemon can then use the traversal move whenever they want. Like say learning Cut requires you to complete a Fruit Ninja minigame for training, and at the end that mon can use Cut. Say that a Pokemon can only learn one traversal move at once, but most traversal moves can be learned by just about anyone. You're not surfing on a Charmander for instance, but a Pikachu can learn it by completing the surfing minigame. When you learn the traversal move you can choose to assign that move to your attack slots too.

>No, I dont want HMs back

I do. But yes, I also miss being able to use my own Pokémon to get around the map and/or do things outside of battle.

>>58237825
HMs suck because they limit your options. I'm playing a Fire run in Black and I have to take time out to swap in a Surf and Fly

>>58237825
Sorry, you'll never get to actually use yours bros for more than battling and whatever barely-there vestige of Amie interactivity is still there, thereby stripping them of their sense of being living beings.
You WILL value your heckin' Rotom Phonerino as a valuable ally more and you WILL like it.

>>58237970
>I'm playing a Fire run in Black and I have to take time out to swap in a Surf and Fly
Why do you need 6 fire types? Just run 4 and 2 slaves

File: adventures in hisui.jpg (107 KB, 1389x617)

107 KB JPG

What if each type could give a pokemon a exploring ability?

>Grass
Finding berries, herbs and other plant based items
>fire
Activate heat/burn events (cooking bonus, igniting torchs, etc)
>water
Water travel (faster than rental pokemon, unlocked after swimming rental)
Finding marine items (pearls, heart scales, etc)
>bug
Climbing walls (short compared to rental pokemon, but earlier)
>flying
Gliding down from high places
>normal
Findng hidden items (that arent plants, marine or stones)
>poison
Walk along them to reduce pokemon spawn rate
>electric
Activate energy based event (power up gadgets, short circuits, etc)
>ground
Escape from caves, dig a hidding hole (in the wild)
>fighting
Destroying breakable obstacles
>psychic
Levitate over gaps or small heights
>rock
Findng stone based items (gems, evolutionary stones, fossils, etc)
>ice
Ice barriers to keep wild pokemon away
>ghost
Activate events that require a pokemon that moves through walls
>dragon
Activate events that require a pokemon that can swim through lava
>dark
Provoke NPC trainers to want a rematch
>steel
Protects trainer letting them go through dangerous zones (rock fall zone, hails, crumbling ruins, etc)
>fairy
Walk along them to increase pokemon spawn rate

>>58237825
I would bring back the exact same HM system, except when you learn them they're already passively applied to all pokemon that can learn the move. the NPC says something like "I've taught your pokemon how to cut down small trees when exploring. Here's the HM to teach them to use it in battle (separate) if you want". The battle move is also overwritable like any regular TM.
Some may still dislike that you need specific pokemon in the party, but I think not forcing it as a battle move is the only compromise needed. only further solution I can think of is maybe adding more with overlapping use like levitating over water if you dont want mons that can swim in your party or something.

>>58238837
Many romhacks do that system and it works the best. Players still have to consider how their team build impacts their ability to explore, which is fair. If anything, it could allow for being more stingy with who learns what abilities if you decouple them from battle moves (I.E. only Pokemon that could feasibly carry someone can surf).

I think the best way to handle it would be a slightly open-world approach, there it's possible to traverse the map without HMs to the main cities, but any meanignful exploration will need you to design your team around it.

>it’s another “DStards are so fucking terrible at the game that they think the problem with HMs is the move slots and not the fact that having to carry a bird shitmon and shitmon and a fish shitmon on your team perpetually just to traverse is fucking retarded” thread
these are the same people who whine about not having the phys/spec split btw

>>58237825
I liked HMs and want them back. Fuck normies and zoomers with their pleb opinions.

File: 1739701265302400.webm (666 KB, 480x600)

666 KB WEBM

The ideal situation is letting the player use their own Pokemon for adventuring, but have fallback generic rentals to fill in any gaps in the player's team, i.e if you hit water with no water mons, you just spawn a laparas.
Pokemon have animations for everything now, even swimming, I think the only thing holding us back at this point is GF just not wanting to animate the player character on the backs of Pokemon.

>>58237825
Different mons should just naturally be able to do what HM moves did. Boulder in your way? Yeah of course your big fuckoff Onix can move that for you. Water? Obviously you can just hop on your Lapras to get across.
You shouldn't have to teach your mons shitty HM moves for them to be able to do these things.

>>58238780
This is functionally the Raidou Kuzunoha system. Each class of demon had at least one specific overworld exploration skill, and some had other skills based on specific traits or whatever.


Also OP in forgetting the LGPE. It’s similar to gen 9 and the ride-ons, but individual pokemon could replace the bicycle and offer other utility, but that’s just “bike but higher” and “Surf”

>>58237825
>personallized way to use your pokemon in your adventure aside battling.
No it's just a shitty lazy way to block your progress

I just want to know why they didn't just let any pokemon of certain types let you do things
ground/rock/fighting can break rocks
+normal can push them
water can surf
flying can fly
whatever, you get it

>>58239142
because they removed the dogshit system entirely which is better

>>58239146
What? I'm specifically saying "why did we need moves to do this instead of pokemon being able to do it naturally" which is completely different than the original system

>>58237832
>>58237851
LGPE had the solution but tied it to kusoge. I'm not sure why the starters are mandatory for shit like Cut but being able to learn actual abilities for your mons to be able to do shit is what HMs should've been to begin with, especially would help with the softlock issue by making it a permanent upgrade rather than MON NEED MOVE especially since they were locked to Gym Progression to begin with

Coulda, woulda, shoulda franchise

>>58237825
>>Gen8.5 (PLA)
>Exploring is back to the Gen7 system, unpersonal but with expanded options
wholeheartedly disagree. You personally become friends with each ride pokemon and having full unrestricted control over each one's movements as well as keeping your outfits creates a great connection to them. Gen 9 is a baby step towards making it your own pokemon you're having this bond with but I feel tons more personally connected in the latest gens' map exploration features over a single text box of "(You)r pokemon used Cut!"

the fundamental problem here is the overworld exploration just being a glorified series of obstacles with one solution to get past them. either you can smash the rock / cut the tree / climb the wall / go up the waterfall / etc. or you can't. there's nothing interesting to do with a binary like this.

File: 7voglo~2.jpg (60 KB, 500x494)

60 KB JPG

Koraidon/Miraidon are fucking boring.
HMs made exploration better.

Just make HMs a purely out of battle ability that doesn't waste a move slot.

>>58237825
they just needed to make HM moves also not mostly terrible, that way I wouldnt mind. Radical Red make Cut always crit for example

>>58237830
Fpbp, I really disliked Rock Smash and Rock Climb. Total HM death

>>58237825
There’s nothing personal about pressing A to watch a few seconds of a tree getting cut down or a boulder being pushed. The only worthwhile HM is Surf.

>>58237825
I want HMs back. I don't care about optimized movesets or gimmick teambuilding. The limitations make the games more fun to explore.

>>58241766
>slapping a lv2 shitmon in my party makes the game more fun to explore

>>58237825
Let's Go games were the height of exploration

>>58241788
Having a limited party does make the old games slightly more difficult. It wouldn't really work in modern gens because everyone just has one mon.

>>58241821
>being encouraged to dump more exp into fewer pokemon makes the games more difficult

>>58241831
In a game with no exp share? Yes.

>>58238780
i like this

>>58241801
But with a shitty map

>>58241870
>having a lv40 Charizard and a party full of HM slaves makes the game harder than having a six lv20 shitmons
ok campaignshitter

I sincerely believe that if rock smash lowered def 100% of the time, cut did something interesting (like being super effective against grass types the way freeze-dry is super effective against water types), and rock climb had higher accuracy HMs would unironically be among the best moves in the franchise.

HMs were kino and I’m tired of pretending they’re not.
Rock smash on heracross dropping def saved my ass many times in my crystal playthrough despite rock smash not being required to progress.

>>58242922
and they'd still be an utterly dogshit mechanic that has no reason to exist because no matter how much you cope having to go to the PC to grab a bird shitmon just to fast travel isn't fun or interesting

>>58237825
just make hms actually good moves. i promise you basically no one was complaining about getting surf or fly (past gen 3). 50 bp 95 acc normal move with no added affect? yeah, of course everyone is going to hate that.

>>58242952
and they'd still be an utterly dogshit mechanic that has no reason to exist because no matter how much you cope having to go to the PC to grab a bird shitmon just to fast travel isn't fun or interesting

>>58242869
Of course it is, you get more type coverage, more turns to use items and to spread the damage taken with six lv20 shitmons.

>>58237970
>HMs suck because I play the game in an unintended way

>>58241230
Its personal when is your own pokemon

>>58240029
THIS

>>58237825
I've been thinking of ways to implement HMs again and im subjecting you all to my idea.
The idea is Field Abilities. They work just like in-battle Abilities, passive qualities that activate under certain circumstances, but they apply for traversing the overworld. Each pokemon would have default Field Abilities that are determined by its species that can't be removed. It doesn't stand to reason that you have to teach pokemon you caught in the water a move so it can swim when you caught it swimming to begin with or having to teach pokemon that have naturally sharp features like Honedge or Scyther cut in order to hack down a bush, so each pokemon's Field Abilities would be derived from things it does in its natural environment and translated into an equivalent HM from series past. The series' old field moves can now be used to expand a Pokemon's selection of Field Abilities, so let's say you have a Rhydon in your party. Its default field abilities are things you'd typically expect Rhydon to be doing. Scaling cliffs (rock climb), pushing heavy boulders (strength) and breaking cracked rocks (rock smash), but if you needed to swim across a body of water and didn't have anything that innately can swim, you can teach Rhydon Surf to add swimming to its available Field Abilities. Ideally this would work in tandem with a Legends Arceus/SV style move system where you can freely remember old moves from the menu, alongside infinite use TMs to best prevent things like softlocks. Field Abilities would slowly unlock over the course of the game as you collected more badges just like HMs required certain badges before being able to use them in the overworld. This would preserve game balance, tie the mechanic in with established mechanics like obedience. You could also teach a pokemon with an innate field ability the corresponding field move to increase its proficiency with that ability, so surf on a pokemon that can already swim would let you go faster or something.

>>58245865
I like this idea

File: Screenshot_20240505-04332(...).jpg (167 KB, 720x701)

167 KB JPG

>>58237825
While I hate HMs as they are typically weak in battle and take up a slot, I'd like it if they made it so minigames or a trial of sort would grant you an HM for EACH mon you had. Perhaps a reward like for battling a set of trainers in a row, much like how you got the golden nugget in rby. But again, gamefreak isnt that cool. Smarru indiu gamuu. Epreasu Undostando.

>>58247684
Forgot to mention but you'd also be granted a seperate moveset specifically for HMs, so your original battle moveset isnt affected at all.

They should have just made each type be able to do various things and lock the "technique" behind a specific gym badge

Don't see the problem with HMs anymore now that boxes can be accessed from anywhere. You could Surf as long as you had a Tentacool tucked in your PC.

Gen 7 ride pokemon could be acceptable if you had to catch them first and you could use them in battle as well.

I do like Koraidon/Miraidon a lot as well.

Raidon was a good compromise. He is "yours", and he traverses all terrain. It's just too bad the game was buggy.

>>58245865
sounds worse than simply not having HMs

>>58237825
Retards in this thread will say you're wrong, but you're right. The removal of HMs is a CLASSIC example of "devs listen to fans who don't want any inconvenience despite games LITERALLY BEING about inconvenience, game gets worse as a result".
There were TONS of ways they could have compromise here even, like giving each pokemon innate "skills" it can use (upon gym completion) regardless of what moves they learn so people who get mad about needing to carry rock smash wouldn't have to, but they didnt, and even if they did people would still be mad they had to consider literally anything else when making an in-game team besides some optimal team they planned before the game even came out with optimized type coverage.

File: 3-c58003.png (97 KB, 256x191)

97 KB PNG

>>58237825
HGSS was peak because your pokemon actually appeared in the overworld and help you with obstacles, unlike gen 5/6 where we came back to the shitty sprite banner

File: clown bike galar.png (973 KB, 1316x996)

973 KB PNG

>>58237825
You're getting the clownbike again in gen X

>>58249976
>the game is literally about being shitty

>>58238780
Neat, but there's a flaw: where does Strength fit if Fighting types are already in charge of Rock Smashing?

>>58237825
You forgot Let's Go, that has the best system so far.
Lets you ride on any ridable species that you own in your team.

>>58251970
Common ability for all types

>>58237851
This
Rental option should remain for faggits who don't want to build their team around exploration (ideally with the stupid outfits to make them feel like the tourists they are), while at the same time real trainers could ride their own pokemon (without clown outfits of course).

>>58238837
>Some may still dislike that you need specific pokemon in the party

You can add some optional rental system for fake trainers like this
Or even items (boat, saw...etc) since they hate using pokemon for exploration

File: fugged.png (72 KB, 570x570)

72 KB PNG

>>58237825
A lot of people keep saying HMs would've been fine if they were actually good, but that would completely negate their existence and just make them mandatory moves for your team to have, which would likely make certain Pokémon that can't learn them obsolete. HMs would've been cool if the games had much bigger worlds, or were at least difficult in some way (you'd probably have to rework the Pokémon system as a whole to make the latter work). When it only takes at most 15-20 minutes to completely clear out the distance between one Pokémon Center to another, mostly dependent on how many trainers you have to effortlessly cut down, it just makes the mechanic feel like a waste of time. If you needed a full party at all times just to get past the trainers, then it would make the mechanic way more interesting.

File: maxresdefault-3189237842.jpg (53 KB, 1280x720)

53 KB JPG

>>58252034
>Common ability for ALL TYPES
>This includes Psychic, which is more about BRAIN than BRAWN