Did Pokemon really become less Japanese over time?There's a sentiment that Pokemon had shed much of its Japanese identity as the series went on to appeal more to international audiences as a global brand. Some say it started in Gen 5 when the game is set based on America, some say it's Gen 6 when they synchronized release dates, but others say it started as early as Gen 3 or even midway through Gen 2's development. We just had Legends Arceus and Kitakami but those are based more on Japanese mythology, not necessarily Japanese-ness. By Japanese-ness I mean things any Japanese person would be familiar with, but would seem nonsensical or strange to people outside Japan. An example would be the red spider lilies added to the Victory Road during the Wally fight in ORAS, which any Japanese player would understand the symbolism it carries without having to look it up. Could also be art style, writing tone, character/Pokemon designs.What's your take? Real or hogwash?
>>58251647Yes and no.Even before Pokémon aired in the US, Japan already considered concessions during the anime’s production like replacing Japanese text and Tracey. Pokemon characters will still show traits of Japanese culture (usually traditional wear) from time to time, but you won’t see pop culture references used in designs beyond the purview of anime or manga. You won’t get a Pokémon like Wobbufett or a lot of premises used in the Kanto portion of the anime.
>>58251647Gens 1-4 are set in Japan so obviously the designs became more cartoony once Gen 5 rolled in. And it keeps getting worse and worse
>>58251647>Dragonite is based on a european dragon>Arbok is based on Cobras (not in Japan)/Egyptian mythology>Kangaskhan is partially based on a kangaroo>Mr. Mime is based on a clown/french mime (not japanese)>Bellsprout line are based on Pitcher Plants (found in South America)>Rhyhorn line are based on Rhinos (not found in Japan)>Drowzee line are based on Tapirs (not found in Japan)It started in Gen 1
>>58251674Don't forget Lt. Surge explicitly having the nickname of "Lightning American".
>>58251647The gen 2 beta seemed way more jap than the final release. Even the later tilesets from gen 1 revisions seemed more globo.
>>58251674>It started in Gen 1yeah the gens have always had varying amounts of Japanese/international influence and cant say it has increased over time, just the mons that ARE introduced with obvious international influence are more tied to their regions of inspiration starting in Gen 5
>>58251675Vermillion is based off Yokohama, which has a US Military presence, Lt. Surge is a reference to that.This is the same reason why Ever Grande City is a nothingburger and Battle Frontier is the way it is. They’re both based on the Okinawa islands which had a fraught relationship with US soldiers being rape beasts on top of the fact GF also didn’t want to offend Ryukyuans/Okinawans by giving a stab at adapting the islands (a shame, could have made a neat post game island hopping area). DP also doesn’t depict Ainu people too, from the leaks we know Dawn’s hair pins are a leftover from when the protags were Ainu.
>>58251686>regions of inspiration*the countries that inspired their regions I mean
>>58251647The anime certainly did, though it lost that identity VERY early on, basically pre-international release of R/B
>>58251694Yep. Tracey’s model sheet is August 1998, and Orange Island eps would have started animation then (where they replaced Japanese text and most allusions to Japan)
>>58251674>>Drowzee line are based on Tapirs (not found in Japan)Not to be that guy but drowzee is based on a Japanese yo-kai called the baku which is a tapir like creature that eats dreams. Now hypno on the other hand is completely European, it's a hypnotist goblin neither of those things are Japanese
>>58251719>Now hypno on the other hand is completely European, it's a hypnotist goblin neither of those things are JapaneseYep, there you go
>>58251672This. Swalot was too cartoony.
>>58251647Gen 9 had these Japanese PokemonDondozoTatsugiriDudunsparceKingambitFlutter ManeSandy ShocksIron HandsIron JugulisIron ThornsBaxcaliburSinistchaOkidogiMunkidoriFezandipitiOgerponTerapagosPecharunt
>>58251647Its more complicated than that.Gen 1-4 were set in japan, designed with a very japanese game dev mindset, and were about capturing this idea of youth that during that time period, only really still existed in Japan, becoming rarer and rarer overseas with new parenting methods. Despite the quality of the games of this era, sales also declined over time, however a lot of this is due to pokemania wave entering high school where there's a stigma on nerd interests (at the time before the culture shift).Gen 5 was the first game set overseas, but is distinctly different from all other overseas games that followed (where the entire game would feel like a tourist ad for the country), despite being overseas, and not trying to capture that same spirit of youth anymore, it is still developed with the japanese mindset, and more than any other entry in the series, was really leaning into it's identity as a JRPG. Gen 6 followed the same path but did a far worse job at it due to development issues, and had that "tourist" quality I just explained.Gen 7 is the big shift, but its actually in a response to japanese needs, the (temporary) success of Yokai Watch made them permanently adjust the direction of the series. Gen 5 and 6, while different, were still designed for fans of gens 1-4, but Gen 7 was trying to capture a new audience of children by basically copying aesthetic and tonal qualities of Yokai Watch. The end result is a game that FEELS far more cartooney / less japanese than previous entries, but is doing so by copying another, very cartoony japanese franchise. They ended up selling extremely well, but again, not due to their quality, but because all those high school kids finally hit college and the general culture shift around nerd identityGen 8 and 9 dont feel like as big of a shift, but are. If you look at the marketing, the way the games are built, everything, that japanese identity is lost, this is GO's fault + previously mentioned popularity boom.
>>58251749I had to condense this post down a fair bit due to the character limit, but the final point was basically that the type of youth depicted in Pokemon games doesn't exist in Japan anymore either. Gen 1-4 all sorta captured that idea of the freedom of youth and the sorta "secret society" they're a part of, that idea of kids wandering around unsupervised with other kids in relatively safe neighbourhoods, playing games with each other or making "secret bases" (we'd call them forts here but anyone who's watched a lot of anime understands that idea of childhood secret bases, which Gen 3's were clearly meant to represent).This is not how children are anymore, and in general is considered dangerous, unacceptable behaviour now, so the games have had to adjust their identity to match. That is why Gens 7,8, and 9 all basically have that sorta: "adults are putting on an event for the kids and while the kids have some freedom in their actions, its clearly a supervised special event" (Island challenge where all the kahuna's feels like they're basically camp leaders, the televised pokemon league of SwSh where adults are keeping track of what all the kids do, SV being a school project, etc.)I'm being WAY to wordy with this but the tl;dr is that pokemon games lack their original identity that you're seeing (mostly correctly) as japanese because the type of youth they originally portrayed no longer exists.
>>58251766>>58251749You very much hit the nail on the head there. Tajiri himself based the concept of Pokemon on the sense of loss he personally felt as Tokyo (Japan) rapidly urbanised across the 70s-80s meaning he couldn't collect the rare bugs he could. Masuda drew on his summer holidays in Kyushu for RS etc. Pokemon slowly lost this introspective element especially after GS, though at least the elemental trio tie in to the theme of nature and balance, while BW went for its own thing.Nowadays the games shuttle you through this shitty storyline with no time to breathe or have introspection.
>>58251822>while BW went for its own thing.Well, BW still has themes of nature and balance, think of Opelucid city or White Foresta/Black City
Yes, basically turned into Disney now
>>58251838The balance in question isn't as much nature but truth v ideal and the extent one is willing to go to seek it.
It just ran too long. they're out of ideas and passion and are coasting on "X country, Y gimmicks, Z new forms". Handholding and loss of adventure is the same policy of making the safest decisions possible because its just a job and a checklist now. Makes too much money to end so they let it get corporate and universalized.
>>58251749>>58251766>This is not how children are anymore, and in general is considered dangerous, unacceptable behaviour now, so the games have had to adjust their identity to match. That is why Gens 7,8, and 9 all basically have that sorta: "adults are putting on an event for the kids and while the kids have some freedom in their actions, its clearly a supervised special event" (Island challenge where all the kahuna's feels like they're basically camp leaders, the televised pokemon league of SwSh where adults are keeping track of what all the kids do, SV being a school project, etc.)Thank so you much for writing all this. Something about the games always felt off to me since Gen 8 but I never realized what it was until you explained it so eloquently. Oddly enough I didn't feel Gen 7 suffered as bad in this regard for some reason. Maybe something about the "meeting a mysterious girl in a white sundress and getting entangled in her mystery" bit has this distinct Japanese childhood summer vacation in the countryside feeling to it.
>>58251647On the other side of the fence, people here really get up in arms over character designs that feel extremely “anime”, kind of a Nintendofag staple at this point
>>58252022Because they are normalfags and expect a JAPANESE game company to make safe generic slop especially for them. They don't see it as art, but just as confort to consume and move on
>>58251647I don't think we're ever getting another Pokemon based on a dead Japanese comedian, and I can say that almost-definitely. There really is a change of design process and influences taken as time goes on and there's no real reasonable argument against that I can see... like Snorlax was another early Pokemon that was a parody of a real-life person, another Japanese guy who wouldn't have been known to international audiences.Like the only other Pokemon I can say looks like a real person and probably has a sporting chance of being based on them is Probopass, but he looks like a lot of things and people, not just Groucho Marx.Like Tom Selleck, Probo looks a lot like Tom Selleck, I think that's just a coincidence but it at least gives you an excuse to name one "Magnet PI."
>>58251647Yes. It still has some “Japanese-ness” to it, but it definitely has decreased. I’d say it started decreasing in Gen 3 and then further every generation since.
>>58251719This is why Drowzee is better than Hypno
>>58251719>Now hypno on the other hand is completely European, it's a hypnotist goblin neither of those things are JapaneseBut Comiket shows nothing is more Japanese than hypnotist goblins
>>58251647I really doubt your average western retard would play The Teal Mask and actually recognize the Momotaro theming.
