>>58557655
Newfag detected, reminder of how it was like
> you cannot hide behind faggy-fairy type because they did not exist
> no one can switch into a Dragon Claw or Outrage, even if it’s a Steel type
> Yache Berry baby
> oh, did I mention he got stronger in the following gen?
> now he got the weather coverage for total domination
> Rough Skin

Power creep was less awful then, but power creep as a concept still is complete ass and has zero reason to exist other then "buy new shit or lose goyim"

>>58557700
I wonder if there’s ever been a long-running game (10+ years) without power creep.

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>>58557655
She won and she is about to win again in the DLC

>Mega Garchomp Z incoming
We'll never be free.

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>THIS made kanto uncs recoil in terror
GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEG

>>58557783
There’s several other factors that contributed to Tauros being excellent in gen 1, but that statline is legitimately pretty good for the time

>>58557741
chess haha
or for a game that keeps adding new content, age of empires 2

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>>58557762
>posts male
>says “she”
retard.
but yes, Garchomp won by finally having its mega finally be better than base form in Z-A, and an entirely new mega in the DLC is awesome.

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>>58557991
Tankchomp in gen 6 was so funny to me, it finally got powercrept and just decided to become a defensive staple instead. It really is god's chosen 'mon

>>58558018
108HP is a sleeper stat for this mon not even "tanky" pseudos aka ones that are designed tank like Goodra have that much HP. Either way, the sign of a good mon is someone that is able to run different sets. I wonder why devs decided to give it so much hp instead of just dumping it into Attack and Speed

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>>58558338
Cause 130 Atk and 102 Spe was good enough back then

Also once upon a time, people were also scared of this statspread in early Gen 4, cause of its STAB types alone

>>58557655
phys/spec split ruined the game

>>58557927
Chess hasn't needed powercreep because who gets to go first has always been the fundamental make or break imbalance that decides who truly comes out on top in grandmaster-level games.

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This is a mon that is currently OU. This stat spread is nothing special and in fact fucking garbage however, because it has a signature move that can set up hazards it will likely remain in OU to come.

A lot of old pokemon still have great spreads but GF refuses to update their movepools to reflect modern times. New pokemon get either broken abilities or broken signature moves or fucking both

>>58558018
I mean it makes a lot of sense. Chomp always had pretty good defensive stats, good defensive typing, gen 5 gave it a good defensive ability and you can stack rocky helmet with it. Why try to break past fairies you can't beat when you can get high value out of your big guy by putting out hazards, punishing u-turns spreading status and using a still very high base attack to chip people down? Realistically this is sort of the "pseudo legendary life cycle:" be a massive problem for one reason another your first gen or two after introduction and as power creep sets in you get settled into a more defensive supporting role carried by your move pool and stats.

>>58557783
No recharge hyper beam is one hell of a drug.

No joke here, use Life orb Hyper beam/D Meteor Drampa in ZA and you will not be disappointed

>no fairies
>permasand + Sand Veil in a game where Abomasnow was the only weather counter
At least boomers waited a year to ban it, nu-smogon zoomies would have banned it on week 1

You can't fathom how much the 2 in 102 actually mattered

102 speed was a tactical decision to let it outrun the meta. It's bullshit.

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sex with Garchomp!

>>58558587
This, but also the 108 HP stat

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>>58557762
>she
Anon...

>>58558587
To clarify how much that 2 mattered, Charizard, Fearow, Raichu, Ninetales, Tentacruel, Dodrio, Zapdos, Mew, Typhlosion, Miltank, Entei, Celebi, Linoone, Slaking, Flygon, Salamence, Jirachi, Staraptor, Palkia, Regigigas, Manaphy, and Shaymin all have base 100 speed.

>>58560646
so like 4 relevant pokemon, gotcha

>>58557700
>power creep was less awful back then
gen 4 had some of the most retarded power creep ever relative to the previous gen

>>58560929
granted that's mostly because johto and hoenn were particularly weak for the most part, just low-BST shitmons and slow frail mixed attackers as far as the eye can see

>>58557699
You forgot to mention that his generation initiated the phys/special split so he got stab phys dragon moves

They still won't give it Dragon Dance for some reason.

>>58561076
Swords Dance + Scale Shot is better

>>58557655
Honestly still look solid if you want it to minmax it you could just drop the special attack to 70 and use it in speed of whatever

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>>58558387
I just want to see my boy relevant again...

>>58561548
No one will gaslight me into thinking this isnt a good statspread. Its still good even for todays standards. The difference is that Infernape does have some busted ability and/or signature move to make it stand out. That's why I hate meta from gen 8/9 especially gen 9. Mid ass pokemon are carried by sig moves and abilities which is fine if older pokemon were given this treatment as well

>>58561567
*Doesnt

>STAB earthquake
>STAB Outrage
>pocket Fire Blast to check counters was viable
>nothing could survive a switch in if it got set up at all
>bonus: Sand Veil with Tyranitar, another big staple, meant hitting him with anything was now unreliable
This was back when the balance designers still had jobs.
Nowadays you have the fairy type Globomon with it's ability Eat Ass that makes it immune to anything that doesn't let it eat ass and hits both opponents with 120 UltraSTAB Mega Effective Damage.

>>58561567
I stopped playing competitive in late Gen 6 (fresh out of college and job stuff) and just loosely followed it from there. What caused the sharp decline?

Gen 4: Decent in OU
Gen 5: Niche OU/UUBL Hell
Gen 6: Good in UU
Gen 7: Good in UU
Gen 8: ?? (Nat??)
Gen 9: bad in RU/NU(?)

>>58561639
fuck meant to say, *did anything else outside of it's ability cause the sharp decline*

>>58557783
It was a simpler time.

>>58561639
No need to run a mixed sweeper with middling coverage these days when the dedicated slots are so ridiculously overstated.

>>58561639
Being just shy of 110 speed is really bad when the previous gen's OU is now in UU also.

>>58561639
There were the obvious, stronger mons with better stats ime iron valiant literally has a similar spread just 20ish points higher. Less of a need for mixed coverage around gen 8 like the other anon said due to highly specified mons.

These days you have dedicated tanks like alolomola, dondozo. Decided special attackers walking wake, etc... and just pokemon that can do everything like h-samurott having sharpness and a move that gets boosted by it WHILE setting up hazards. Or garganacl who's immune to everything while halving damage from ghosts while having a good move that chip damages. Devs are just obsessed with giving pokemon everything

>>58561588
>This was back when the balance designers still had jobs.
So never?

>>58561797
if a non-normal type with a halfway decent movepool and ability had that spread nowadays it would see use too

>>58561033
Also because those gens didn’t have high power moves distributed to everyone and their mother

>>58561588
You’re out of your mind if you think Garchomp was “balanced”.

>>58561810
he was specifically pointing out how it was unbalanced despite the now-rudimentary tools.

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>shitty even with a gimmick

There's just no saving him huh?

>>58561852
This one is more so hurt by opportunity cost more than anything.

>>58561797
>>58561800
I once made an image edit with the best of Snorlax's and Muk's stats smooshed together.
Imagine Alolan Muk with a
160
110
75
65
110
50
stat spread

>>58561852
>can’t abuse Draco Meteor
>doesn’t get spammable high-power STAB moves
>Grass/Dragon right when Fairy was released
>also requires you to give up your mega slot
>>lightningrod
This being released at the same time as Salamence is crazy. Genuinely what goes on in Gamefreak’s heads?

Don't get cocky, Garchompsissies.
They lowered the speed of plenty new Megas. Even Darkrai got fucked over.
Don't think GF is not retarded enough to commit the same mistake TWICE.

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>>58557655
A japanese game rating wiki has an entire section dedicated to garchomp's minmaxed stats and shitmons lol

>>58561852
Mega-Sceptile would be everywhere if it didn't need to hold a megastone(applies to most shit megas too)

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>>58561852
They genuinely had to try to make a Pokemon with a design and stat spread this fucking good bad on purpose, no high power STAB outside of Leaf Storm, which isn't enough and has that ever miserable 90% accuracy, and occasionally Grass Knot, awful coverage, doesn't get Earth Power for some reason, no Draco Meteor, has to rely on Focus Miss or HP Fire to deal with Steel types, can't do shit against most Fairy types, is extremely weak to priority and it's stuck with a dogshit ability that isn't even good in doubles due to it outspeeding every single relevant Electric type that can spam either Discharge or Parabolic Charge.

>>58558359
Is this Infernape?

>>58561852
If it had regenerator instead of Lightning Rod it would've seen more play

>>58561852
I question if Gamefreak genuinely thought out the impact of Fairy type. This thing might've stood a very small chance if Fairy wasn't a thing.

>>58561852
This would have been fine if MSceptile had a proper ability to boost its damage output. Something that actually represented the tail missile gimmick.

>>58562398
>Something that actually represented the tail missile gimmick.
bit of a stretch and two generations early, but maybe propeller tail? wouldn't really do anything in singles though

>>58562365
nah it would still be a complete shitmon

>>58557927
>>58558368
>chess doesn't have powercreep
Even a cursory glance at chess history over at Wikipedia crushes this idea.

>>58561916
I mean they admitted they made Salamence overpowered and stupid on purpose to see how people would deal with it

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How are we expecting he'll be in Champions with his new tool?

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>>58562606
Insanely broken, Shell Smash Mega Blastoise is incredibly stupid and it's just bulky enough to endure a ton of hits from a lot of Pokemon before getting the boost too, regular Blastoise is so stupid with Shell Smash that it's the only Kanto starter still in RU in gen 9, both Charizard and Venusar are PU despite both being pretty good in their own right and many other starters that have also been good to great for ages are struggling to even reach NU these days due to the stupid amount of powercreep.

>>58562576
>we made this thing overpowered on a whim
t-thanks
execute the balance team

>>58562398
>>58562526
Just give it Mega Launcher, like Blastoise. They couldn't be further from one another in playstyle with it, and launching missiles makes sense with the gimmick.
It would only get the boost on Dragon Pulse, though. They really should synchronize "aura and pulse moves" and "ball and bomb moves" because that's kind of dumb that they're separate categories when they're clearly both meant to be ballistics. That would give Sceptile boosts to stuff like Focus Blast, Energy Ball, Bullet Seed, and Seed Bomb, which would have some merit. Its movepool is weirdly empty actually, why does it get weird stuff like Vacuum Wave but not even Sludge Bomb? Sunflora gets Sludge Bomb, lmao.

>>58562761
It would be cool if Sceptile got what Mega Zygarde has and it had one of it's Grass moves turn into a new very powerful one when it goes Mega. Speaking of coverage stuff, Sceptile feels like one of those Pokemon that could get Thunderbolt, they already pulled the Lightning Rod bullshit out of their arse, might as well give Sceptile some neat pieces of coverage while at it, Sludge Bomb to destroy Fairy types would be really nice.

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>>58561800

>>58561852
It should have been a physical attacker. Fuck it. Sceptile has nothing to boost its Sp. Atk and it doesn't learn Draco Meteor. Should've swapped its attacking stats and gave it Sharpness so it could use boosted Leaf Blade instead of Leaf Storm (most of its coverage moves are also claw moves that are coincidentally boosted by Sharpness, it makes no sense for it not to have this ability). Mega Sceptile could also just Swords Dance-Outrage sweep like a normal dragon if using grass type moves fails.

>>58557655
I don’t get it, this is still a good stat spread by modern standards. 102 speed means you’re outspeeding most things and 108 hp means you’re not getting OHKO’d like most speedsters do, even with no bulk investment. Garchomp would obviously still be OU if it didn’t have a double weakness; and with dragon dance it would be god tier.

>>58557783
This is a better example. Pretty awful by modern standards.

>>58558359
This is also a better example.
Pretending 130 attack isn’t good in current pokemon is laughable, it’s literally 5 points away from the SV box legends. Sure they get a boost on top of it but still.

>>58560929
Power creep implies new mons leave everything before them in the dust. Gen 4 buffed all mons including previous ones. That’s not what power creep means.

>>58561567
104 offense isn’t that good. The speed is good though but too many things will survive and then OHKO

>>58562023
>garchomp
>minmaxed

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>gen 7 and 8 were so far gone that a mon with 181 attack, 109 speed, 131 defense, steel typing, and not-moxie was perfectly fine
I can't help but laugh

>>58563257
The boost is much more valuable than the stats

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>this somehow scared boomers so hard that it took multiple nerfs afterwards

>>58563324
>stab combination is resisted by everything
>dies to mud slap

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>zoomers saw this and said "nahhh this is way too much get bro out of here"

>>58561567
Infernape got fucked over insanely hard by getting Iron Fist.
Of all the abilities for it to get. Nothing to push its speed over the edge. Nothing that boosts damage on both sides. Nothing that even boosts damage by a lot on one side.
It gets an ability that boosts some select physical moves by a pretty small amount.

I still think Baxcalibur is the most minmaxed pseudo

>>58563257
>Sure they get a boost on top of it but still.
I think you're really overlooking the value of that boost.
Fully invested, in their respective weather/terrain (which they set on their own), their abilities raise their offensive stats to the equivalent of 196.
That is not a small difference compared to Garchomp.

>>58561797
imagine if this fat fuck had 110 special stat in RBY, it could learn amnesia as well

>>58557655
Mods, bring in the Weavile/Mamoswine

>>58561852
Sceptile has a physical movepool but some someone decided to turn it into a special attacker with a useless ability.

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Fags keep saying Sceptile should be made physical and I keep having to remind people Gamefreak already made a better and slightly more optimized physical version of Sceptile in Meowscarada with an actually good ability, arguably better movepool, it just loses in design due to being a shitty furcoomerbait instead of a badass gecko raptor.

>>58563680
Scepile was always special because it was introduced pre-PS split

>>58563741
Protean isnt as good as it used to be.
>>58563754
Sceptile's post split movepool has way better tools on the physical side.

>>58562927
huh, neat

>>58561852
I remember seeing someone say sceptile should have been grass/electric to complete the weather theme of gen 3
>swampert gets powered up by rain
>blaziken gets powered up by sun
>sceptile doesn't get directly powered up by either, but gets solarbeam or thunder with no drawbacks

>>58564322
kino

>>58563767
>Protean isnt as good as it used to be.
This. I did a playthrough with all three starters, and I didn't even bother getting a protean cat.
The nerf is compounded by the fact that tera lets you change your type

>>58563680
>>58563754
A lot of pre-split mons really deserve a stat rework.

>>58564627
the nice thing about Schooling is that it doesn't deactivate until you're basically dead anyway. Less than 1/4th max HP.
It makes it just a bit better than similar abilities

>>58557655
>Really good attack
>Actually decent defenses that are balanced by x4 weakness
>Sp.Atk is not too bad and allows it to be more versatile
>Speed is above 100 but not in the extreme tier Ninjask, Infernape whatever territory

Gamefreak created perfection

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>>58563409
God no, it's just Haxorus with 20-30% more HP. Hardly minmaxed. Good abilities and moves though.

>>58566114
Where's the speed?

>>58566114
Haxorus is minmaxed as fuck though
>147 atk
>60 sp atk
Imagine that thing with 60 more BST

>>58566160
Knowing gamefreak they'd put 30 in sp.atk and 30 in sp.def

>>58563409
Baxcaliber has a special snowflake ability and move to cover its faults

>>58566114
predict the stat spread for Mega Bax

>>58557699
Also Sand Veil could cheese wins

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>>58558387
>it has a signature move that can set up hazards it will likely remain in OU to come
That alone isn't a guarantee

>>58566510
>HP: 115
>Attack: 165 (+20)
>Defense: 122 (+40)
>Special Attack: 75
>Special Defense: 111 (+25)
>Speed: 102 (+15)

>>58566510
>>58566556
I would expect another speed-drop mega for Bax imo, I'm thinking something like
115
185 (145+40)
122 (92+30)
95 (75+20)
116 (86+30)
67 (87-20)
That's more in-line with what I expect it to get.

>>58566539
>same speed
>better bulk
>better attack
>same ability
>signature move has the same base power
>signature move sets the stronger hazard
>is in RU while H-Samurott is in OU
Is being a Bug-type really that crippling?

Where would H-Samurott be without hazards?

>>58566510
>>58566556
>>58566639
115
185 (+40)
102 (+10)
85 (+10)
146 (+60)
77 (-10)
Ability: Snow Warning

>>58566797
PU. Maybe NU.
It would still be better than U-Samurott (who's in ZU) because of the better typing, better ability, and better speed tier.
But it would not even sniff OU without Ceaseless Edge.

>>58566815
There's no chance they get rid of his signature ability

>>58561548
What would Infernape need to be at least UU again?

>>58566924
any of
>buff iron fist's damage to something much higher and give it more coverage; if iron fist did 2x damage and it got shadow punch, or something
>change iron fist for a stronger ability, like adaptability, or moxie, or something
>it got stat boosts, even +10 speed might be enough
>signature move that lets it wallbreak more effectively, whether it's a stat boosting move or a fire/fighting STAB move, whatever
it really wouldn't take too much, honestly.

>>58566539
Literally how?

>>58563741
>physical minmaxed Sceptile with a godlike ability
It’s not fucking fair.

>>58566639
I imagine Mega Bax like that too. Maybe a bit less specially bulky.

>>58566924
Okay speed, not great but not bad. Offenses are low for a Pokémon that can't do anything but attack. Just giving it adaptability would bump Infernape to UU for sure. Iron Fist is not good for damage manipulation because the base power of fist moves are low (this is Gen 4's fault btw). If Flare Blitz and Close Combat were boosted instead Fire Punch and Drain Punch it would be a completely different story. Adaptability would also support mixed and special infernape while Iron Fist only helps out physically.

>>58566924
A Neuroforce reskin, maybe?
Infernape has really good coverage, so it would make good use of it.

>>58566539
What relying on low accuracy moves and having an extremely awkward type combo does to a Pokemon.
Kleavor is sadly a case of far too many things working in favor of making it not good, Stone Axe not being 100% accurate sucks, it struggles a lot at dealing with bulky Ground types especially, and there's plenty of those in OU, it can't run all the moves it wants and it has a horribly awkward speed tier.

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>adv autists seethe and shart their pants at this spread

>>58558387
>caring about smogon
lol

>>58567630
top 3 most threatening mon for sure but only inexperienced players get steamrolled by suicune after a boost or two

>>58567630
>adv autists
you mean noobs who spam the big 5 and still thinks it's free ELO?

>>58567630
>Leech Seed
Sorry about all those boosts kid, guess you gotta switch out

>>58567630
Nothing hits it very hard on the physical side and Calm Mind severely softens Electric and Grass hits, not to mention Suicune is extremely annoying behind a sub and is generally so bulky that it can Rest without a care in the world. Thankfully Roar and Leech Seed exist to tell this piece of shit to fuck off.

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Is it just me or does this statspread suck ass without Regenerator? Why the fuck isn't Dragalge allowed to get a recovery move? I could imagine it getting Moonlight at the very least.
Also, sorta off topic, but how good would Snorlax with Slack Off be? It feels insulting that Gamefreak still thinks Snorlax isn't allowed to get the move.

>>58567661
vast majority of the thread is talking about smogon, nimrod

>>58567630
>explodes on you
nothin personnel…

>>58567751
>Nothing hits it very hard on the physical side
ermm >>58567804
that being said you made a good point, another that i can think of is focus punch or a banded hera megahorn but the former is difficult to execute and the latter is hard to fit on most teams since cb meta is better

I'd say we'll live long enough to see Deoxys Attack become middling, but we already have.

>>58567955
Deo-A isn't middling (yet).
It needs to at least stop being good in Ubers before it can be in contention for middling.

>>58566764
>signature move sets the stronger hazard
It doesn't

>>58560929
Gen 3 mons still held a lot of viability in both VGC and Smogon.

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>>58563271
Everyone getting access to an extremely powerful tool will still benefit some Pokémon more than others. Pokémon that were already strong are typically in the best position to benefit from increasing the power level.
Many Pokémon already had a stat distribution aligned with their Type so the Physical/Special split didn't change much for them, while Pokémon like Gyarados and Salamence benefited tremendously.
For most Pokémon, Tera provides roughly the same benefit and its once-per-game nature incentivizes using it only on Pokémon who gain the most value from it. Given the option, a Pokémon like Ogerpon, Volcarona or Regieleki is far more likely to benefit from Tera than any other given Pokémon who can't utilize it as effectively.

>>58560929
Nowhere near to the nowdays bullshit

>>58557655
this wouldn't have been nearly as bad if it weren't for the Phys/Special split.

>>58566924
It needs to hit hard again.

>>58562398
It learns Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. It just needed to be physical. There is nothing in the special movepool that would make it dangerous, ever.

>>58563741
Until Sceptile learns Nasty Plot or Draco Meteor we will continue having this conversation about Gamefreak's incompetence. Meowscarada being strong does not preclude this.

>>58563741
>Fags keep saying Sceptile should be made physical and I keep having to remind people Gamefreak already made a better and slightly more optimized physical version of Sceptile [20 years later]
fuck you, "already" my ass.

>>58561654
It was a better time
A much much better time for Pokemon

>>58567765
Honestly I'm surprised ZA only introduced one new move compared to Arceus.

What makes pokemon stats well balanced?

>>58568469
You might be mixing the two up.
Stone Axe, Kleavor's signature move, sets up Stealth Rock. The hazard that can be set up in 1 turn, which nothing is immune to, which singlehandedly made a Pokemon's weakness or resistance to Rock-type moves an important factor in their viability.
Ceaseless Edge, H-Samurott's signature move, sets up Spikes. The hazard which takes 3 layers to reach full power, which all ungrounded Pokemon are immune to, and which was caught in the crossfire of Heavy Duty Boots being created.

>>58557655
Its fucking unfair Electavire and Magmortar have such shit hp stat conpared to garchomp.
Garchomp looks like 90hp max.
>

>>58557655
What mon? Salamence?

>>58563400
Ironfist just needs bigger boost.
Many people sugested it should also BOOST futher SE damage

>>58566510
Less speed more sp attack and defences

>>58568763
That's garchomp

>>58567765
Base Dragalge only flaw was not having enough base SpA so this mega is already overachieving.

>>58568650
Headlong Rush and Bleakwind Storm were the only PLA moves that I thought were worthy additions. Ceaseless Edge and Dire Claw were a mistake. I don't get why they turned Wave Crash into a Flare Blitz clone in SV but that sucked balls too.

We have to go back

>>58568131
It doesn't really help that Pressure doesn't do anything for a glass cannon when most busted Legendaries have abilities that do a ton of shit, Hadron Engine is Electric Surge + a free Sp.Atk boost on switch in and Delta Stream is Air Lock + Flying types don't have weaknesses anymore, it's to the point that Multitype is kind of redundant for Arceus, they could've just had the plates work like Genesect's drives and Arceus wouldn't need Multitype to change type.

Pressure doesn't do anything bad, but trying to stall out PP with Deoxys Attack is the literal worst possible thing you can do with it, so it effectively doesn't have an ability, so all it's got are its moves and its stats.

>>58568799
Water just needs more coverage bro
Water Meteor next gen to make up for Hydro Pump missing
Hydro Combat to make up for the recoil to Aqua Blitz
Since people complained about Pursuit being gone we also have to include H2O Trap.

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>>58558387
I think a crazier example of a mon currently in OU is Iron Crown because it doesn't even get a busted signature move or ability.
It's the pinnacle of "good enough", and that weirds me out in such a powercreep-defined generation.

>>58568650
Yeah, you'd think we'd get more, ZA feels kinda barren in terms of moves, I get why, but no new signature moves or even cool niche stuff just feels so weird.
>>58568782
That is true, but it's still a really slow Pokemon with very flawed physical bulk, low HP, no recovery and notable weaknesses in Ground and Ice. Dragalge has always been on the verge of being really good, but it always lacked that extra OOMPH that I'm not entirely sure the Mega delivers on.
>>58570491
What the fuck are you on about? It has a signature move in Tachyon Cutter and it's a really good move that other Pokemon would kill to get access to.