Does anything miss HMs?
>>58769600surf is one of the few HMs that doesn't actively waste a move slotif only the other HMs all had actual uses that'd compensate for not being removable via normal means
>>58769600Not being required to use dogshit moves on your team is nice, but it also sucks that you don't have your own Pokemon really do anything outside of battle anymore. Z-A sorta brings that back but all of them are practically variations of Cut/Rock Smash that don't give more traversal options like Surf or have a use for puzzles like Strength.
>>58769600I miss field moves that matter, but not HMs.Using pokemon to get past roadblocks is a good concept. Having a moveslot permalocked to rocksmash is awful and leads to just dumping them all on 2 HM slaves. I like how a lot of fangames do it where just having the HM in your inventory lets any comparable pokemon do the move without needing to actually teach it for battle.
>>58769600They could bring them back with the modern design pretty easily. Most of what made HMs suck was the inability to remove the move later, and the limited availability of TMs, Now that the design for move availability is completely flipped. HMs Could easily return. However I kind of prefer it to be like ZA, where a variety of moves can serve the same purpose. All bets are off if some madman implements an actual surfing minigame though.
>>58769600Removing HMs made level design real lazy
>>58769877This. Imagine how much better this route would be if the game had HMs.
>>58769877HERE IS A BIKE THAT HAS A JETPACK SO YOU CAN FLY AND BIKE
>>58769888sup yawnie
>>58770114so I don’t have to carry a lv2 starly on my team all the time like a fucking retard? sounds good to me
>>58769869yeah this is the best approach that doesn't just involve removing TMs entirelymaybe it could also be based on a pokemon's characteristics; a sufficiently powerful mon should be able to just push/destroy obstacles regardless of moves, a large enough mon capable of swimming can be used to surf, a large enough mon capable of flying can be used to fly, etccommon sense should generally give an idea of what can and can't perform an out-of-battle task without needing specialized moves for it
>>58769877If your level design needs arbitrary roadblocks that limit the creativity of the player by forcing them to lug around shitmons or waste precious move slots in order to be "good level design", then maybe the level design was never good in the first place.
>>58770810Level design in any game is comprised entirely of arbitrary roadblocks.
>>58770822Not really.Aside from the "mazes" in the original Super Mario Bros castle levels, everything feels purposeful and relevant to the core gameplay loop (i.e. "run and jump across the level to get to the flagpole/grab the axe") rather than being an awkward diversion and detriment from it.If Mario had HM-like roadblocks, you'd have sudden new criteria like "you can only go to World 4 if you lose the ability to run for the rest of the game" or "in order to remove the blocks that are in the way of the pipe you need to go through to exit this underground level, you must sacrifice the ability to find and use Fire Flowers".
>>58770829exploring the overworld is and tailoring a team specifically to your needs are both part of pokemon's gameplay loop. HMs are relevant to both.you're a pseud who is working backwards to rationalize a knee-jerk hatred of HMs by throwing around game design terminology you don't understand.
>>58770860If tailoring a team to my needs is part of the gameplay loop, why is my gameplay loop being limited by the need to carry some faggot who can cut trees, break or push rocks, or carry me across water?What if I don't want to use those moves, or don't want to use any Pokemon who can learn those moves?This is the same game where I can assrape every NPC trainer in the game with just my starter thanks to how easy it is to overlevel. The way HMs are implemented is not adhering to the gameplay loop, that's betraying it.
>>58769600Nope
>>58770860>dogshit game design is part of pokemon’s gameplay loopUp until it wasn’t, yeah.
>>58770863>why is my gameplay loop being limited by the need to carry some faggot who can cut trees, break or push rocks, or carry me across water?those are your needs. tailor your team to them.>What if I don't want to use those movestough shit>or don't want to use any Pokemon who can learn those moves?go catch something that can. did you forget that you can catch pokemon?>This is the same game where I can assrape every NPC trainer in the game with just my starter thanks to how easy it is to overlevel.almost like the game is about more than just battling
>>58770873>those are your needs.No, they're the needs as arbitrarily decided by the game developer. I never had a say in this.>did you forget that you can catch pokemon?Cool, how do I get a 7th party slot so I don't have to stop using one of the Pokemon I actually want to use?>almost like the game is about more than just battlingAnd yet you can't explain all the ways this is true that aren't tied to these arbitrary roadblocks, curious.
>>58770878>No, they're the needs as arbitrarily decided by the game developer. I never had a say in this.you can stop playing the game at any time>Cool, how do I get a 7th party slot so I don't have to stop using one of the Pokemon I actually want to use?if there were seven party slots you'd be asking for an eighth>And yet you can't explain all the ways this is true that aren't tied to these arbitrary roadblocks, curious.you're not going to accept any answer that mentions HMs because you've already decided they're "arbitrary", which goes back to my earlier point: you're rationalizing an emotional responseHMs are how early pokemon games added obstacles to its overworld. that's your answer. it's part of the gameplay because it's in the game, it's in the game because the developer wants you to engage with it. HMs are there to connect exploration and teambuilding. they're part of the gameplay loop, which is a term that you still don't understand.
>>58770893>you can stop playing the game at any timeDamn, you sure owned me.>if there were seven party slots you'd be asking for an eighthTrue, because if you give me X slots as a default, but then tell me I have to replace one of them and stop using a Pokemon I want to use, then obviously I'm going to ask for a Y slot.>HMs are how early pokemon games added obstacles to its overworld. that's your answer.And they got rid of them, which is indicative of how dogshit they were as a form of game design, else we'd still be seeing them in Legends: Z-A and having to force our mons to use turd moves like Rock Smash, Flash and Cut to get past arbitrary roadblocks.
>>58770893>HMs are how early pokemon games added obstacles to its overworldwhat HM do I use to get past this
>>58770896The same HM you use to get past the drunk old man in Viridian City, and the same HM you use to get past the guy who won't let you leave the east exit of Pewter City.
>>58770897So which HM do I use
>>58770894>True, because if you give me X slots as a default, but then tell me I have to replace one of them and stop using a Pokemon I want to use, then obviously I'm going to ask for a Y slot.and you'd be missing the point. the game is forcing you to give up a slot. it is now your decision which move you want to give up, or if you instead want to give up a party slot for an HM slave. that's the game design.
>>58770944And it was evidently dogshit game design, because as I pointed out earlier, they got rid of HMs with no substitute that DEMANDS you use a certain Pokemon with a certain attribute or else you can't progress the game at regular intervals.
>>58770829>Not really.Yes, really. Enemies are arbitrary roadblocks. Inaccessible ledges are arbitrary roadblocks. Jumping is an arbitrary roadblock. It's all there to create a game to figure out.Is every Metroidvania game bad because every area isn't freely accessible from the beginning?
>>58770983>Is every Metroidvania game bad because every area isn't freely accessible from the beginning?If they required you to go back to the save station just to swap upgrades to progresss yes it would be dogshit game design
>>58770988When are you required to do that in a Pokemon game?
>>58770947and all the games that don’t have HMs are dogshit
>>58770990when I have a team intended for competitive battles but I need to fast travel or walk past the retarded tree in front of team galactic’s building just to change rotom’s form
Anti-HMfag arguments invariably boil down to "I can't use a perfectly optimized team at all times to beat a game for children, so it's bad."
>>58770993>when I have a team intended for competitive battlesin the campaign? why?
>>58770991and all the games that do have HMs are dogshit
>>58770996Oh, do I magically get to stop using HMs after the campaign is over? How do I unlock that?
>>58771000So your only argument is changing your Rotom's form in postgame?
HMfag arguments invariably boil down to “having to get a Starly from your PC just to fast travel is good and meaningful gameplay for some reason”
Parroting is an admission of defeat, yawnie.
>>58771003>So your only argument is that HMs are pointless tedious dogshit?Correct.
>>58771013Works on my machine.
>>58771016Oh, you magically got to stop using HMs after the campaign was over? How did you unlock that?
Just make it so you can use pokemon in your pc box for HMs.
>>58771023I stopped being a bitch and just visited the PC. You have to visit a different area, anyway.
>>58771029Ok so you agree it’s a pointless mechanic. Good to know.
>>58771028Why even bother having HMs at that point? There is no party or movepool requirement, what difference does it make if the unused shitmon comes from my box or materializes out of thin air?
>>58771004Nah it’s born out of a misguided belief that Pokemon party building is supposed to be about traversing the wilderness just as much as it is about battling so if you don’t have a flying type your team is just wrong
>>58771031Nah, it's a good mechanic. Gen 4 are shit games.
>>58770999okay so why are you even here having this argument if you don’t like pokemon
>>58771035Fly is a convenience, it's never a necessary part of any Pokemon game. It's not even on the critical path in RBY.
>>58771036>it’s good>I won’t ever actually explain how it’s good though
>>58770991okay so why are you even here having this argument if you don’t like pokemon
>>58771045thanks for admitting defeat
>>58771042It's good because it encourages you to use something that isn't 6 optimized Pokemon with 4 perfect moveslots each. Tradeoffs and being rewarded for them make games more fun.
>>58769600No HMs were a waste of time. When they started introducing shit like Whirlpool & Defog it was time to leave them in the past. Good riddance
>>58771051How am I being discouraged from using 6 good Pokemon in competitive just because there are retarded roadblocks in a completely different area of the game?
>>58771060Because competitive is irrelevant and I seriously doubt you have ever played a pvp game in gen 4. Certainly not in the past decade.
>>58771066You’re talking about the toddler campaign? That’s most easily beaten by sweeping all the NPCs with a single Pokemon? And you think using 6 Pokemon is optimal? Are you fucking serious?
>>58771071 When have you last played gen 4 competitive?
>the only people defending HMs are campaignshitters who are complete dogshit at the gamesKEK checks out
>yawnigger implying he plays the games at allLMAO
>>58771075When have you last given a valid reason for how HMs are good?
>>58769600Does anyone miss the gen 1 box system? That was so soul
I’m so glad HMs are in the game as a trade off to force me to use an unoptimized teamI’m definitely not just steamrolling through the game even harder by being encouraged to fill half my team with HM slaves and dumping all the exp into the remaining pokemon I actually use in battlessuch beautiful game design
Yawnie, why are you always so transparent? You're the easiest shitposter on this site to ID.
>>58771108>shitposter>but I can’t actually disprove any of the arguments in these supposed shitpostsgrim
>>58771110You don't argue in good faith. You are only here to stir shit and shill for the new games.
>>58771115You know, not once in my entire life have I ever had to screech about someone not using “””good faith”””. Maybe it’s because I know how to actually make arguments instead of hoping the other person magically agrees with me.
>yawnchad gives multiple specific examples of how HMs are shitty pointless game design>HMniggers give no arguments except “just stop being a bitch”>”W-WELL HES NOT ARGUING IN FOOD FAITH THO!”kek unimaginable cope
>>58771123What arguments? You make up fringe scenarios that you never experience first hand, then try and change the subject when pressed on never having those experiences.
>>58769600HMs had their issues, but the alternatives are all fucking awful.Also, with Pokemon box being available everywhere, there's no issue with HM filling up precious moveslots, swapping between your main team and HM users would take literal seconds... hell, make HMs usable from the box.We have all the tools to make HMs actually good.
>>58771139>fringe scenario>look inside>it’s literally any scenario that’s not just “I’m playing the toddler campaign badly on purpose”
>>58771150>We have all the tools to make HMs actually goodYes, removing HMs made HMs good
>>58771071>You’re talking about the toddler campaign?well yeah. this is a thread about HMs.
>>58769600Honestly the main issue is how outside of fly, surf, and water fall every other hm is ass but it isn't hard to buff them>cut and rock climbBuff cut to 65-70 bp and make both of them freeze dry clones that deal super effective damage to grass and rock types specifically. Would give cut nice utility for water types that can learn it early game>diveBuff it to 95 bp to be the same as fly>StrengthBuff it to either 95 or 100 bp to replace return as a strong normal type physical move
>>58771150>hell, make HMs usable from the box.At that point you might as well just gives the player some item to do it
>>58771215That is the primary issue, with a close second being that you can't easily remove them until very late in the game. Make them forgettable(except for when they are in use) and you no longer feel like you're "wasting" anything by teaching them.But also stop forcing the use of shitty HMs for story progression late in the game. Like gen 3 Victory Road's random smash rocks.
>>58771255That too but making them more useful overall helps them a lot
>>58770896HM09 Safety Dance
>>58769888I, uh… can’t tell if this is supporting or shitting on HMs
>>58771098>gen 4 is shitI agree desu
>>58770993Very niche scenarios. Even in the HM-less games you won't be lugging your competitive mons around all the time.
>>58771098So there's nothing with HMs then?
Hms in concept were fine, but they went way too far. Dive, Whirlpool, Rock Climb should never have fuckin existed.Cut really shoulda got buffed a bit over the generations too and my only issue with fly was how nonsensical the pokemon who couldnt learn it could be, like Charizard in red/blue
>>58771869Also waterfall, fuck waterfall.4 water HMs was not ok
>>58769861tpbp
>>58771831>niche scenarios>it’s literally any scenario that’s not just “I’m playing the toddler campaign badly on purpose”
>>58769877Trvke
>>58769600You can tell the people who defend HMs are just contrarians since all of them claim HMs were “complex decisions for your adventure”.Literally everyone who has played Pokemon before Gen 7 uses HM slaves. All you do is catch a shitmon or 2 that you’ll use as a glorified key holder, and then teach Fly/Surf to your Flying or Water type.There was never any “complex” decision making. You decided to give all the shitty HMs to slaves and the good HMs were usually the best in game option.
>>58771996I always find this talking point because it makes me realize that me not doing so is an aberration in the data. I always tried to spread my HMs evenly across my party. At most, I paired Cut and Surf on a Stoutland ONCE.>>58771788It's just shitting on Gen 5 at all costs. It's mostly optional in 1(except if you want legendaries or the Dreamyard,) but 2 has strength puzzles that he'll pretend are shit if you try to bring them up.
>>58771996HM slaves are good (emergent) game design, they reward players who have enough game knowledge or intuition to seek out pokemon that learn lots of HM moveswhat's bad game design is making regional rodents that can learn a bunch of HM moves. the process of seeking the perfect slave is rendered moot when you can find it right after stepping out of the starting town.
>>58772244You have to evolve Bidoof for it to be optimal. And this was back when normal dual types were rare, so no one expected it to turn into a water type.
>>58772301You can catch Bibarel as early as Gym 3 long before you need the Water HMs. Even if you don’t do that Bidoof can evolved fairly quickly.
>>58772331>You can catch Bibarel as early as Gym 3but the issue is finding them at the very beginning of the game. you're going to need rock smash and cut by the time you can catch bibarel.
>>58771924>>it’s literally any scenario that’s not just “I’m playing the toddler campaign badly on purpose”Meaning?
>>58769600All they had to do was just make it so that each pokemon had 1 "field move" slotAt that point the only problem is when you have like 3 different water HMs, so they just have to not do that
>>58773097>All they had to do was just make it so that each pokemon had 1 "field move" slotor you could use one of the four move slots they already have
>>58772485Just use Bidoof and then replace the Bidoof when you need Water HMs
>>58773097>have gyarados on team>have garchomp on team>have yanmega on team>have gliscor on team>still need to have a lv2 starly on my team at all times just to fucking fast travel because GF arbitrarily decided none of those pokemon can flyNope. Anything less than simply not having HMs is a shitty solution compared to simply not having HMs.>>58773128or you could just not have the dogshit mechanic
>>58773156MAN IF ONLY STARLY HAD AN EVOLUTION THAT WAS REALLY GOOD IN BATTLE HMMMMMMMMMMM
>>58773160MAN IF ONLY I PLAYED A GOOD GAME THAT WASN’T FILLED WITH POINTLESS SHITTY MECHANICS HMMMM
>>58773168>>>/v/>>>/v/>>>/v/
>>58771039Bro address the actual point not the specific. Pretend it was Surf/Water type respectively, it doesn’t matter
>>58773156Then you could consider training a pokemon that can learn Fly...?
>>58773210Why would I train a Pokemon when the lv2 Starly does the job?
>>58769600They were annoying but they also made Pokémon feel more like pokémon and now that they are gone you start noticing it.>>58770810Any good non linear but non open world game necessitates roadblocks to impose limitations upon the players. It's either that you can't access to a path because you lack the ability to do so or NPCs blocking your way until they just get the fuck out once you progress enough. What's worse? You decide, but Alola definitely went for the second option and it was annoying as fuck.
>>58773603ThisBW2 would have been way better if it had HMs
>>58773619>obstacle that goes away after earning a gym badge:|>obstacle that goes away after earning a gym badge and wasting a move slot:O
>surf>flyWith a Pelipper you can go anywhere in the world.
>>58773717Just blocking the area and saying "come back later lole" is a shit way to direct the player compared to the player independently arriving at the conclusion "Oh guess I can't go through here yet, better make a note to come back once I unlock [move] later".
>>58773744YepFucking sucks that gen 5 doesn’t have HMs, it really ruins the level design and immersion
>>58773168>POINTLESS SHITTY MECHANICSIf you can tolerate IVs, EVs, breeding, egg moves, and [gen gimmick] I don't see why you can't tolerate HMs.
>>58773780I’m glad we agree HMs are shit.
>>58773785Only if we agree your standards are inconsistent.
>>58773856>”HMs are shit”>Y-YOU HAVE INCONSISTENT STANDARDS!!???
>christmas eve, 2025>yawnfag is still shitting up the board
>>58769600I admit I do sometimes miss the idea of planning out a team that would be good for exploring the region, making sure I had one to fly, to surf, to move or break rocks etc.
>>58769600I like ZA's version, where some moves cover a lot of uses>powerful attacks can break rocks like fighting moves, double edge, flare blitz, liquidation, hyper beam etc.>fire moves and cutting moves can cut down thorny bramble>psychic moves and water moves can remove sludge>long range and movement attacks can break spider webs>ice shards can be turned into paths with fire and water movesit just feels so fluid>see sludge in the distance>run to it>while running, send out meowstic and as soon as the sludge is in range use psychic to destroyed it>she tiny steps forward as I am>by the time I reach the sludge its destroyedit's great.
>>58773947He's such a miserable grinch. Imagine spending Christmas time griefing a bunch of Internet strangers for liking something your autism refuses to tolerate.
>>58774183
