>We should make it so HMs don't have to be taught!>No we should make HMs good so the player wants to teach them!But obviously it could just be bothJust make it so HMs don't have to be taught to be used and also make them good moves worth usingWas this really so hard for GF to understand?Instead they just removed them entirely and replaced them with dumb gimmicks that they now have to add into every game.
because they want the Pokémon to interact with the world, retard, not the player and their soul-less HM item.
>>58904777>We should make it so HMs don't have to be taught!>No we should make HMs good so the player wants to teach them!Both are retarded suggestions and worse than simply not having them in the game.
>>58904777I think HMs should require you to have a Pokemon that could learn it, but not require you to actually teach them to a mon. There isn't actually much value in requiring moveslots to become useless or making it so the player can only really have 5 mons when the games are so unchallenging. But this still has it so you're actually using your team to traverse the world and maybe helps the player to have a balanced team type-wise like may have been one of the intents with HMs.
>>58905121>dude you MUST have the lv2 starly in your team so you can fast travel! This is good game design I swear!I’m so fucking glad campaignshitters don’t design these games.
>>58905158There's tons of reasonable flying Pokemon. Your example is literally the first stage of one of the best Pokemon in it's game. Talonflame is actually good too. Farfetch'd, the Pokemon literally designed as a fucking joke, is used in XY speedruns. And if you really don't want to use a flying type fucking Golurk learns fly. But you know what, I'm willing to let exactly fast travel be a menu option, we're living in a post-2010 world, that's fine. Certainly better than what ORAS did, where you're given a busted Mega legendary in the middle of the story and you didn't even need to be given it, it's a fucking key item. If it weren't for that, and if flying did actually use your Pokemon to navigate in the skies and both travel over maps and reach new places like your cool giant robot in Xenoblade X I'd gladly carry around a shitmon over Mega Lati@s are you kidding me? Just don't reset the music until you reach a certain altitude, holy shit the original Xenoblade X turning off the music every time you want to fucking jump after getting the flight module is genuinely worse. And if that's the most restrictive team building thing, I can live with a ground immunity.
>>58905174>There's tons of reasonable flying PokemonUnless it’s literally 1025 - 5 of them, no, there aren’t.
Core problem with HMs just objectively stemmed from Masuda's fucking unreasonable desire to keep shit the same long after it outlived its function. TMs in earlier games were designed with the intent of slowly dolling out better moves over time so that you don't get all the busted shit immediately. That's why Surf and Strength, the best moves, were the last ones you got. The only reason they can't be deleted was to prevent softlocks (not that it succeeded in doing that anyway)But by Gen III they still kept this shit and just kept piling on HM after HM without fucking restraint. Instead of getting good moves like Surf, we got dogshit like Whirlpool, Dive, Rock Climb and Defog (pre buff). The only good HM move they added was Waterfall, ANOTHER Water type move. If he could fucking calm his goddamn Water boner and actually design interesting HMs to justify using them outside of arbitrary gates that became more arbitrary the more Masuda added story progression gates to his games, then people wouldn't have been bitching about them for a decade straightIt's such lazy game design that doesn't improve from the original game which is the only game that used HMs in a way that doesn't feel genuinely intrusive, which is insane because that's the only game where you can't even interact with obstacles you're supposed to use the fucking HM on in the overworld
>>58905207It's 110 Pokemon. That's 10.7% of all Pokemon. That's a single Pokemon less than every single Pokemon that could remotely be considered Psychic type, which is the 5th most common type in the game. Hell, flying itself is the 4th most common type. Like if it were an ice type, which is kinda a fucky type to be because they keep designing them wrong and is only really good for coverage on other Pokemon AND is the least common type among all Pokemon, then I could see your complaint. But why would you not want to use actual good or cool Pokemon like Golurk, Hawlucha, Talonflame, Staraptor, Covriknight, like half the pseudo legendaries, several actual legendary Pokemon, or what is definitely one of the most popular Pokemon in the game and was literally the Poke Ride for fly in the game that was least representative of it in Charizard then I don't know what to say. Maybe try a real weirdo like Sigilyph, my favorite glup shitto that isn't the cool robot golem man. But if your main complaint is there's not enough non-flying types yeah man we need more Golurks, let Garchomp fly it would be so fucking funny.
>>58905261>That's 10.7% of all PokemonIn other words, I can very, very, very, very, very easily have a team that doesn’t have a flying capable Pokemon on it. Therefore HMs are a shit mechanic.What campaignshitters don’t understand is that HMs are fundamentally dogshit because battle mechanics are completely separate from field mechanics. If I want to build a team for say, the PWT, I’m not going to shove a flying capable Pokemon on it if it hinders my team’s battle synergy. Therefore it becomes a meaningless chore when I have to go to the PC just to grab a flying shitmon to fast travel somewhere else. Campaignshitters can’t grasp this because they think everyone else is like them and only plays the toddler campaign, so to their brains they think it’s no big deal to shove an arbitrary flying Pokemon on their team, and they’re so terrible at Pokemon games that they think putting the square in the square hole is an engaging mechanic.
>>58905273Just become a Galaxy Brained Glowbro Teleporter forehead
>>58905273>If I want to build a team for say, the PWT, I’m not going to shove a flying capable Pokemon on it if it hinders my team’s battle synergy. There's literally a type expert tournament that requires you to use a flying type, the vast majority of which can in fact use fly (there's like a 5 Pokemon difference between the two, not literally 5 specific Pokemon as outliers like Mew and Golurk exist, but probably not enough to build a good team in Gen 5). There's also the medal for beating the champion with a monotype team so again there's got to be at least a single Pokemon capable of flying you'd willingly want to put on your team. All very good reasons to swap out Pokemon, alongside breeding, and if you're swapping might as well get out a Pokemon that can fly when you're done anyway. Hell, Gen 6 has entire mechanics based around having Pokemon you want around over what's necessarily good or not. And if we ignore all that and go to something actually difficult like the Gen 3/4 Battle Tower, Salamence is really fucking good, Latios is really fucking good and legal for some reason, it's fucking fine. Literally the only problem is the wasted move slot. Or are you trying to tell me some of the most busted Pokemon in the game aren't good enough for your big important teams? Is being Uber not good enough for you?
>>58905273In the Smogon Battle Maison thread (as the Battle Maison is the best battle facility in all of Pokemon according to the average user on this board) the second longest Singles streak, second longest Doubles streak, longest Triples streak, and longest Rotations streak all have a Pokemon capable of flying on the team.
>>58905273Yada yadaGod forbid a child traveling an entire region on foot has to account for travel
>>58905273Landorus, one of the most ubiquitous Pokemon in basically every metagame he's been in, can learn fly, the fuck are you on about?
>>58905273Genuinely the new EXP all causes more menuing than having a flying type, between having to rotate your party to not be grossly overleveled in the campaign and having to remake your party every time you want to EV train in the post-game.
>>58905304>There's literally a type expert tournament that requires you to use a flying type,Ok, now what if I want to play any other tournament, campaignshitter-kun?>>58905309Ok, now what if I want to not be a shitter and build a different team on my own, campaignshitter-kun?>>58905312Ok, now what if build any of the dozens of viable teams that doesn’t have Landorus on it, campaignshitter-kun?>>58905315>between having to rotate your party to not be grossly overleveledWhy would I care about being overleveled, campaignshitter-kun?>and having to remake your party every time you want to EV train in the post-gameWhy would I need to remake my party just to EV train, campaignshitter-kun?
>>58905362>Ok, now what if I want to play any other tournament, campaignshitter-kun?Then you'll have to replace your entire party anyway, because you're physically incapable of building a monotype team for every single type using only 6 Pokemon (Arceus is a no go).>Ok, now what if I want to not be a shitter and build a different team on my own, campaignshitter-kun?Well, you could always go with True Ant for Singles/Rotations and Fear for Doubles/Triples, but that involves changing your team twice so that's a no go for you.>Ok, now what if build any of the dozens of viable teams that doesn’t have Landorus on it, campaignshitter-kun?Well you'll have to switch out Pokemon then, which isn't the best since you hate doing it so much. At the very least once you set up every single good Pokemon in the mostly solved metas that exist you won't be having to go anywhere, and there's a town right nearby basically every daycare so it's not really a problem when it's set up. I guess you could go play on Pokemon Showdown instead, but with how much menuing you have to do you'll probably hate it.>Why would I care about being overleveled, campaignshitter-kun?To get mild enjoyment out of the game you're playing, you know like low level runs in other JRPGs, even a kid's game like Kingdom Hearts has the same thing going on (or for the adult version, low soul levels in the Elden Dark Demon Blood games)>Why would I need to remake my party just to EV train, campaignshitter-kun?You do know the EVs go to every Pokemon when you beat one, right? Are you building a team with entirely the same EV spread? That's kinda fucked up but I guess hyper offense is a thing you can do it's just a bit weird that it's entirely either physical or special.But I get it, you hate menuing, maybe there just shouldn't be fast travel at all, that's a bit too much menuing. After all, we all know that more menu options are a bad thing, like that iconic image mockup of that Sonic menu.
>the chrono trigger nigger is a campaignshitterthat explains so much
>>58905362>Ok, now what if build any of the dozens of viable teams that doesn’t have Landorus on it, campaignshitter-kun?The entire process of catching a Pokemon, getting a parent that has the egg move you want, breeding until you get a Pokemon with good enough stats, EV training and leveling that Pokemon, and walking to Link Club takes more inputs than taking out a Pokemon to use fly occasionally. Hell, I think building a Pokemon on Showdown takes a magnitude more than that.
>aaaaiiiiieeee you have to accommodate for me the 5% of the playerbase that does the post-game battle facility content instead the 99% of the playerbase that wants an engaging campaign>I don't want the minor inconvenience of going to the PC to grab a flying mon and go somewhere to catch/train a pokemon that I don't need my entire team for!!You're bald
>>58905394Yeah, the guy who is interested in single player game design including JRPGs is interested in the game design of a JRPG's single player mode, no shit retard. What's next, Yawnfag being disingenuous about something?
>>58905158>campaignshitters>this insult when talking about the pokemon CAMPAIGN
>>58905392>Then you'll have to replace your entire party anyway,No I won’t. I just build the team I want and stick with it. And how does this make HM chores good again?>Well, you could always go with True Ant for Singles/Rotations and Fear for Doubles/Triples,Or I could go with literally anything else. How does this make HM chores good again?>To get mild enjoyment out of the game you're playing, If I wanted that I would just play battle facilities or PvP instead of pretending the campaign that has always been piss easy for toddlers is challenging. How does this make HM chores good again?> You do know the EVs go to every Pokemon when you beat one,So? Why would I randomly have non EV trained Pokemon in my party? And how does this make HM chores good again?>>58905398>putting the square in the square hole is engagingThanks for proving that campaignshitters are low IQ subhumans.>>58905400>Yeah, the guy who is interested in single player game design including JRPGs is interested in the game design of a JRPG's single player modeThen why does he keep suggesting objectively dogshit single player mechanics? Why is he so horrendous at the game?>>58905442>campaignshitter>the insult when talking about retards who think putting the square in the square hole at the expense of everyone else with > 50 IQ is goodYep, sounds right to me.
>>58905498The high IQ gameplay in question
>>58905500>the campaignshitter thinks the type chart is all there is to the gameYep, checks out.
>>58905498>I just build the team I want and stick with it.Prove it, beat every Type Expert tournament with a single team>Or I could go with literally anything elseOkay, play like a retarded campaignshitter and use your favorites>If I wanted that I would just play battle facilities or PvP instead of pretending the campaign that has always been piss easy for toddlers is challenging. Usually you have to beat the game to get to the battle facilities or obtain enough Pokemon to do it. Might as well have some fun on your way there. Or just download a save off the internet or play Showdown, valid options.>So? Why would I randomly have non EV trained Pokemon in my party? Because you're trying to build up a team? After all, we're trying to save trips to the PC aren't we? That's what this whole thing is about isn't it? So why should I have to switch out Pokemon every time I want to train one of the 6 stats?>Then why does he keep suggesting objectively dogshit single player mechanics? Why is he so horrendous at the game?You're complaining about the equivalent of copy ability puzzles in Kirby games being a waste of time, come the fuck on dude. It's a game designed for children, you can use a Pokemon that could theoretically use a move in the campaign and outside of a few edge cases like Bagon or flying be mostly fine in the post-game. Hell, they even did my solution to the flying problem in Let's Go, the baby game that doesn't have a robust competitive scene and is basically entirely about the campaign, so I'm correct in every way that matters.Now explain to me what's fun about competitive Pokemon. What's so fun about copy-pasting the same dozen Pokemon in various combinations and guessing what button your opponent clicks as opposed to exploring an interestingly designed map full of interesting gameplay features?
>>58905506>doesn't understand the concept of checks and countersGuys I think this guy might be low ELO
>>58904795>t.newfagThe original intent for HMs was to make them key items. The removal of HMs was one of the best things the franchise ever did, especially after the shitshow that was lategame hoenn. Needing not one but TWO HM slaves just to get through everything after Lillycove is an unforgivable sin and why the back half of Hoenn is such a terrible slog.
>>58905506Reminder that "competitive" pokemon will only ever be so when two pokemon of the same species are equal in power without having to breed, grind, or gen pokemon.
>>58905533Before the items (which could easily just have been for debugging purposes) we literally see concept art from Capsule Monsters where people are using Rhyhorn to transport goods and Larpas to cross the sea. So unfortunately for you, the plan was always to require Pokemon to do certain things.
Bringing back having your own monsters using traversal abilities would require them to develop overworld animations that interact with your player character, and we all know that's too much work for them. They'd rather just make particular ride monsters and call it a job, as soulless as that is. Your monsters are for battling only.
>>58905582>Remove the ability for your pokemon to interact with the overworld via HMs>Add the ability to ride your own pokemon, in LGPE only, never tried again>Remove features that play with them like contests, pokeathelon, amie minigames, super training>Had to get bullied into reimplementing following pokemonHavin a great adventure with my bros...
>>58904777With boxes and more relearner being available everywhere, HMs can easily comeback in exactly the same form they existed for 6 first generations.If you need an HM slave, you can just easily move it back and forth between team and box and if you're inclined to put HM on any of your main team members, you can easily go back to proper move immediately.It's already solved problem but Gamefreak and lobotomites called Pokemon fan still did not realized it. Yeah, Cut could be slightly better but as purely a progression/hidden area gating mechanic we already have everything to make HMs work.
>>58905592>With boxes and more relearner being available everywhere, they can easily make the game pointlessly worseyeah but why though
>>58904777They literally did what you asked OP, in Gen 5.
>>58905598Your face is pointlessly worse. Consider using an angle grinder to remove it. Others not being forced to look at your ugly mug will be a great QoL, faggot.
>>58904777HMs were a plague. Good riddance
After playing many romhacks HMs are fixed with 3 things:> make them actually usable moves (cut being a barely upgraded tackle is ridiculous even in gen 1 because even then every mon learned a better normal move)> Make it so you don't have to teach them to use them only have a Pokemon that can learn it in the party>Give the player a portable PC at some point so they can switch to such mons conveniently at any pointOf course you can just remove HMs entirely which is fine but HMs are an iconic memorable part of the Pokemon world and I like still having them in the games even if it's just for optional things.
Here's the best changes I've seen to HM moves to make them usable:>CutMake it a grass or steel type moveKeep the 50 base power (or maybe 60) but give it a good chance to raise attack by 1 stageBasically make it into a swords dance analog>Surf/FlyDoesn't really need any changeSurf is obviously good Fly is kind of underrated with the built in protect turn which is useful for scoping moves and any passive regenI think Fly should have 100% accuracy but that's just me >StrengthNeeds to be rock or fighting type obviouslyEither give it a flinch chance or stat lowering chance>FlashIt's okay I guess just a basic status move with some utility but not very unique or appealing eitherHave it do a little damage like mud slap or lower another stat>WhirlpoolI don't know this shouldn't have been an HMHonestly I'm not sure how good trapping moves are if it needs a buff or not>WaterfallWas obviously dumb before the split but now it's just good>DiveSame as fly but waterTrades accuracy for power I guess but I think they should just both be 100% 90 power because the 2 turns is already a tradeoff>Rock SmashIt's okayAlready got a much needed power buff but I would put it up to 50 like Cut as long as the defense drop isn't guaranteed>DefogThis is a valuable competitive move isn't it?Probably doesn't need to be changed >Rock ClimbIt's alright I guessBasically a hurricane analog which is considered a decent moveAgain shouldn't be normal type thoughRock fighting or groundAll in all Pokemon could do a lot more with HMsWhere are all the fire or electric or ice or grass or psychic HMsWhy are they all normal and waterToo many water HMs
>>589056903 water HMs per game is the only thing I find ridiculous about HMs. Unlike most I'm not afraid to just have my party members learn HMs, but having fucking three on one guy is stupid. Pick two at most, if you must have another then convert it to some sort of ice or flying move
>>58905586They honestly don't even need to bring back HMs to do this, just unlock an ability through progression and have only certain monsters be able to use those traversal abilities. Riding would be the main thing that would require any significant development time, whether that's surfing, flying, or land riding, but like you said, if they can do it in LGPE, they can do it again, just limit the monsters that you can ride to those that make sense. It needs to come back to being your own monsters helping you on the field, though. I liked Miraidon/Koraidon considering it was a long term buddy that you could eventually even use in battles, but it being the only one? Nah.
>>58905690Make Cut a Grass-type QA. I don't think that it would be super broken, except maybe for Breloom who would get two Technician-boosted STAB priority moves but desu Grass/Fighting is pretty meh coverage so lmao.
>>58904777just make them field moves like xenoblade
>th-they need to be usable!!the fact that campaignshitters think this is the issue is fucking hilariousyeah bro the problem with HMs is that they're slightly bad in a game full of piss easy NPCs designed for toddlers to beat and not the fact that they're an inherently dogshit pointless chore
>>58906352This argument is completely shot if you ever used Surf or Waterfall as your main Water attack
>>58905273>I need fly
>>58906543Yes, you need fly to fast travel, retardo.
>>58905533Are you stupid?>The original intent for HMs was to make them key items.Which never happened because...? because they want the Pokémon to interact with the world, retard, not the player and their soul-less HM item.
>>58906555>I need to fast travel in a game that takes 25 seconds to cross the entire map
>>58905548No, we have interviews stating that they were originally going to be items. HMs were a mistake and ruined the games, especially gen 3 which requires 6 HMs just to finish.
>>58906572>especially gen 3 which requires 6 HMs just to finish.Maybe you should play the games instead of reading interviews.
>>58906571Not in linear ass Masuda games, it takes fucking ages to get from one end of the map to another. In Kanto you can argue Fly isn't a necessity since all of the region is pretty interconnected, Sinnoh too, but not Johto, Hoenn or Unova (though in Unova's case it's not as necessary because the game is SO linear backtracking isn't required). Kalos doesn't need it either because despite being the largest map, its set up is more linear than Unova's somehow so there's zero reason TO backtrack in that game, especially since it keeps filtering you into the only important city, Lumiose, every hour
>>58906574Anon overshot but>Rock Smash>Strength>Surf>Dive>WaterfallCut, Fly and Flash are obviously not required, but this basically means you'll be lugging around an Azumarill at all times near end-game (given you'll be running Surf on your Swampert)
>>58906577I'm sorry you're incapable of navigating a video game map.
>>58906584>hm slaveSoulless
>>58904777Just make them inherently usable by Pokémon that could realistically use them>CutAll Pokémon that possess claws, pincers, or bladesFly>All Pokémon with wings or that visually levitateSurf>All Water types, bipedal Fighting types with arms and legs, and Pokémon with wings or that visually levitate (right above the surface instead of swimming)Strength>Any Pokémon that has arms that aren't flippers or wings or pincers/blades, and can also stand and survives on landFlash>All Electric and Fire types, Pokémon that visibly shine/glow/have reflective surface, possess a shiny object or apprendage, maybe Ghost types
>>58906571>I need to lie to make my shitty mechanic look good
>>58906778>my mechanicYou have too much autism to have an actual conversation about anything.
>>58906801>I'm blatantly lying but you're the one who can't have an actual conversation about anythingyeah sure retardo
>>58906586>Pokemon>NavigationNigger I'm saying Masuda made it a rollercoaster, not a safari. Learn to fucking read before you think you can have standards
>the video game needs to be more inconvenient because muh theater of the mindLook forward to crying about Rotom scooter
>>58906574If you're seriously saying I should literally surf and walk my way everywhere, especially in the lategame, instead of using fly and that this is in fact the optimal thing to do, you're wrong.Even 5 HMs is far too many. It's absurd. My Swampert looks like an HM slave by the endgame. It's cancerous.
>>58906571Now who hasn't played the game? It takes far longer than 25 seconds to go from Mossdeep to Rustboro on foot/surf.
>>58906599>[thing I don't like]Soulless isn't an argument, it's an admission of defeat.
>>58904777Im working on a ROMhack myself and I can say after studying the way the games are designed that HMs are just progression gates. Youre required to beat a gym and then learn a specific move before being able to move on to the next gym. The best solution is to just have at least 1 pokemon in your party that is capable of using the HM in question in order to use it in the overworld, but allow pokemon to learn the move if the player really wants to.
