Why are Pokemon players such babies? I've never seen a fanbase demand that the developers make things so easy and convenient that they never have to make any tough choices or trade offs AT ALL. They just want to breeze through the games without out even the bare minimum of a challenge and if you don't let them, they will cry about you ruining their experience.
>>59015766>more pc slots>more pokeball types>later switch in after fainting>unlimited bag>throwing a pokeball at trainers doesn't use the ball>eggs hatch at level 5>respawning encounters in platinum
>>59015766>posting Platinum, which railroaded players harder than DP, gave you earthquake after the second gym, and nerfed the E4's level advantage because little kids complained Platinum was the true birthplace of what you're complaining about.
>>59015908Damn, you gots a point
>>59015908Always hated Platinum. They made everything easier, everything more accessible, far less choices to make. The redesigned cities all looked like shit, especially the Team Galactic buildings and the new story bits were stupid and contrived. Distortion World was dumb as fuck.Only good thing it did was add back the Battle Frontier, but it's not as good as Emerald's. Pokemon died with Diamond and Pearl.
>>59015766HMslop was never good. Even back in 1997 I was asking myself "why does my Pidgeot need to learn an HM to fly?"
>>59016240Pidgeot is retarded, that's why
>>59015766a grown man typed this
>>59016332I don't identify as a man
>>59015766DStards keep doing this thing where confuse annoying chores for difficultyno, having to mash A to get out of snow isn’t difficult, it’s just annoyingno, getting interrupted by 15 geodude random encounters isn’t difficult, it’s just annoyingno, having to slap Fly on the lv2 Starly just to fast travel isn’t difficult, it’s just annoyingno, having your move miss because of fog isn’t difficult, it’s just annoyingno, having to wait two days for Skorupi to show up in the Great Marsh instead of another Quagsire isn’t difficult, it’s just annoying
>>59015766tedium does not equate to challenge, making a game more annoying to play while still having the same piss easy core gameplay as always is not good man
>>59016345a grown woman typed this
>>59016348>>59016349shutup
>>59016345A grown man with programmer socks and a mental disorder typed this
>>59016381
>>59016229This may be the most contrarian post I have ever seen on this website.
>>59016348Annoying in what way?
>>59016401Annoying in that it’s a waste of time and provides zero engagement.
>>59015766There is nothing difficult about HMs. All it involves is sacrificing a move slot to use the designated move at the designated point. Some HM moves are good enough that you're not even really "sacrificing" anything. It's just adding an extra step for no reason.
>>59016408You can just type that you have AIDS
>be forced to put a HM on your mon>lose a coverage or setup move that makes the game less fun for the sake of pressing a once in the overworld>battles don't actually get harder since your main STAB probably deals with most threats any ways and if you have a bad matchup you were just gonna switch to a different mon regardless>say fuck that and slap it on a hm slave so you can continue using your broA mechanic that is so bad it actively discourages players from engaging with it is a monumental failure of game design. The fact that HM slaves are even a concept in a series all about making a personalised team of your own is a testament to just how shitty this sort of thing is.
“Single use” HMs are the only annoying ones, especially if they’re not required, only incentivized (defog, flash) There’s no reason to keep defog on your set after the one time you use it, and you can just readd in the post game if you’re at that one other area where you could use it. The mt. coronet stuff with it doesn’t matter since you can just flee since there’s no trainer battles
>>59016419You can just type that you concede.
>>59015766I liked the pre Switch era because even in the 3DS era there was some of that
>>59016348>open platinum save>skorupi and very rare encounters like yanma and tangela are in the marsh>open pearl save>find skorupi againI have never had a problem with the marsh, you always need to lie about how supposedly unforgiving the RNG is.
>>59016240Were you 4 years old in 1997? Anyone who played any other video game knew the answer, it's to gate progression. Pokemon is a video game, not a life-with-Pokemon simulator.
>>59016459getting that one guard a water bottle is unironically a more challenging roadblock than anything HMs have ever offered
>>59016430>Game about going on an adventure has you dedicate move and team slots to making the world easier to travel instead of everything being battleslopThe horror!
>>59016406How much time is being wasted exactly? What's the game preventing you from doing?
>>59016468>slap all the HMs on one mon you won't usenow this is a real brainteaser
>>59016475But you are using it.
>>59016471>How much time is being wasted exactly?How does it matter?>What's the game preventing you from doing?Spending my time on something that isn’t a shitty pointless chore.
>>59016526>How does it matter?Well we need to quantify it or I can just write you off as an over-exaggerating baby.
>>59016240Because Pokemon is not only a video game filled with abstractions it's also an RPG where players are expected to think about what tools and resources they need to navigate not only combat but also exploration.This entire thread shows why Pokemon has nonexistent level design these days. Players want absolutely 0 friction, just hold forward press A beat the game and have the NPCs praise you for being the greatest trainer ever.
>>59016539If the game is wasting my time in any way it means what I said is true. It doesn’t matter what the quantity is.
>>59016544>Players want absolutely 0 friction, just hold forward press A beat the gameyou mean like hold forward press A to cut bush hold forward press A to surf hold forward press A to waterfallHMs never added anything to the games and you can have puzzles without them, it's ironically people like you who just cry for a shitty mechanic back over and over instead of demanding GameFreak improve the games that hold the worlds back from providing meaningful interactions
>>59016548Where do you draw the line? You're fine with the other ways the games "waste your time"?
>>59016557I draw the line at the game wasting my time.
>>59016475>using hm slavesSoulless
>>59016560So you don't play Pokemon at all then.
>>59016560All video games are wastes of time.
>>59016563Yes I do.>>59016566No they aren’t.
>>59016544>Players want absolutely 0 friction, just hold forward press A beat the game and have the NPCs praise you for being the greatest trainer ever.This lmao. So many players don't want any semblance of trade off. Do these people play any other games? Why are Pokemon fans like this?
>>59016613>>59016430
>>59016570>Yes I do.No you don't unless you hack in rare candies.
>>59015908The gym split nuked the game's level curve. Making the game linear was actually a huge quality of life change.
>>59016655I don’t see how that has any relation to the game wasting my time.
>>59016669Grinding is a waste of time.
Why do HMfags find it so difficult to comprehend that the mechanic just isn't fun? You can go on and on about how it "encourages planning a team", or "forces the player to make trade-offs" and accuse people of being too stupid to recognise this when you yourself are the ones oblivious to the fact that everyone can see this and has decided it isn't worth it.Choosing to throw HMs on a HM slave and sacrificing a team slot for it is already a risk assessed choice that the player has decided is better than actually running a HM on their team. Like a roguelike giving you two different penalty options, people have already made the decision to give up an entire party member in favour of sacrificing move slots for the Pokemon they want to use and in doing so have had their potential for building a team reduced by giving up a slot to do so. Because at the end of the day, people play a game to have fun and Pokemon's fun is all about your favourite little guys.HMs not only fail their purpose, they actively encourage the opposite and make the game less enjoyable for most players.
>>59016680Who said I had to grind?
>>59016713For postgame and online stuff? I guess you really don't play.
>>59016716The non-shit games let me use Exp Candies for that.
>>59016459NTA but I was 4 in 1997 and although I didn't have Pokemon Red until 1999 when I was 6, I figured that the move Fly was to give the bird a boost to carry you on it's back and it could normally fly without you.
>>59016722>The non-shit games let me use [thing you need to grind for] for that.You're coping so hard, no matter what QoL Gamefreak introduces it still takes hours to teambuild.
>>59016731No it doesn’t.
>>59016735I accept your concession.
>>59016739>I-I won because I said so!Maybe one day you’ll figure out how to actually defend your favorite games, sagie.
>>59016430>discourages engagementThe mechanic forces you to make a tradeoff between overworld utility and battle optimization. Pokemon is an RPG, not just a battle simulator. Exploration abilities being tied to your team means your team composition actually matters outside of combat. >just switch to another mon anywayIf switching already solves most matchups, then sacrificing one slot for utility isn’t the catastrophe you pretend it is.
>>59016782>>59016710
>>59016782>The mechanic forces you to make a tradeoff between overworld utility and battle optimizationThere is no tradeoff, because "battle optimization" in the older pokemon games is always just using as few pokemon as possible and dumping all the exp into themit's only a "tradeoff" in the postgame when you're building actual competitive teams at which point it's just an utterly fucking pointless chore that involves removing a pokemon from the PC and putting it back in
>>59016710If the system gives you two penalty options and players choose the one they prefer, that means the system is doing exactly what tradeoff design is supposed to do, you’re deciding whether a move slot or a party slot is more valuable to you. That’s a meaningful strategic choice. Also lol at the claim that it “reduces team building”. The alternative is a system where your team composition literally doesn’t matter to exploration at all. Removing HMs disconnected your team from the overworld and should have never happened.
>>59015766That was never the issue, that was GF excuse because makking 3D games is harder, and thus, making 3D facilities takes more effort that you could use in making flashing animations or else.
>>59016742>Maybe one day you’ll figure out how to actually defend your favorite gamesSays the one who thinks "No it doesn't" is an argument that tells me anything.>sagieSchizophrenia.
>>59016229>everything more accessible, far less choices to makeare you even trying?
>>59016857>Says the one who thinks "No it doesn't" is an argumentWhy should I put any effort into my argument when you're not going to put effort into yours?
>>59016795>"battle optimization" in the older pokemon games is always just using as few pokemon as possible and dumping all the exp into themThat's not a property of the HM system, it’s a choice about how you play the game. The series gives you six slots and type matchups for a reason. If someone decides to overlevel one starter and ignore the rest of their team, that’s not evidence the tradeoff doesn’t exist. If you run multiple pokemon to cover types, setup moves, and status, then a moveslot absolutely has value. Giving one up for Cut or Rock Climb can matter, especially earlier in the game when movepools are limited. >it's only a "tradeoff" in the postgame when you're building actual competitive teams That’s because the mechanic is meant to tie exploration to your active party during the story, not to be optimized around training competitive teams, what does this have to do with anything?
https://xcancel.com/kojo_anhttps://www.deviantart.com/thekojo/galleryhttps://archive.is/KQMnIhttps://archive.is/FkKfT
>>59016782>Pokemon is an RPG, not just a battle simulator.And HMs do a shite fucking job of showing that because not only do they entice the player into making "HM slaves" which serve no purpose in the battle side of things (unless it's to be revive fodder), they present a fundamental disconnect between the two systems which not only breaks the immersion of your adventure but of the world itself. You want me to believe that there's all these super powerful creatures roaming about, tamed by humans that can command them, and not one of them is able to remove a tiny little bush until a 10 year old comes along with his Rattata? That there are entire government systems challenging trainers to be the very strongest battlers in the lands and compete against professionals, but only if they have specific pokemon on their team carrying out menial environmental agency tasks that they're too lazy to clean up? How does my rival traverse the region when their team never has any HM moves on it? You mean to tell me that my big scary monster is bested by a mild inconvenience and is incapable of uprooting, flattening, blasting, burning or whatever else a miniscule roadblock and the only way to do so is to use my Gym Leader assigned move disc? Why is a Pokemon incapable of carrying out an action if it doesn't have a specific move tied to it at all times? You can even do stupid illogical shit like have different water HMs on different Pokemon to create stupid scenarios where you're surfing on a Swampert while diving with a Luvdisc and Waterfalling with Milotic - I even did this as a kid because there was no way I was putting 3 fucking water moves on my main mon. HMs are a poor abstraction that just create more questions and has the player sit there thinking "What was the fucking point?"And why only HMs? You know what would be cool and actually encourage teambuilding? Properly being able to use moves outside of battle, which with only a select few exceptions is not an option.
>>59016782>>59017059Why do I need to enter a battle to use Aromatherapy, or Purify (which actually can't be used 99% of the time because every battle is a 1v1 any ways)? Don't you think it'd be much better to have the choice for a dedicated support Pokemon that keeps your team topped up with the limited resources it provides at the expense of one of your offensive team slots? Nah, don't worry about that, there's always an infinite supply of healing items using your infinite stack of cash, the Pokemon Centre always being a short trip away if you're scared of the big bad Zubat's Wing Attack taking out your starter 20 levels above it and a permanent "Remove this" button on your Pokemon for any roadblock that serves no other real purpose. What if I went to an ice cavern and have my Pokemon's fire type move melt something that creates a shortcut or uncovers an item as a little reward for team variety? Why do you need the game to spell it out for you by forcing a shitty hindrance on you which you'd otherwise never consider because if you had a functional brain you'd realise there's no real point? Why can't the games be made harder to stop the player with an actual challenge that makes them take a step back and assess their current team instead of an insignificant limitation which rips engagement away from the player? People don't see a Rock Smash tile and go "Ooh man what a mentally tasking and skilful obstacle I must overcome! Getting rid of a good move was worth this enticing gameplay experience!". They see it, get annoyed and press the A button to clear it because it's that fucking simple.You're a lost troglodyte who needs the game to slap you in the face to consider the concept of creating a balanced party. You're so fucking stupid that you need the game to hold your hand, tell you "This is the HM Tile! You know what to do here, right?" and pat yourself on the back for carrying out the most insultingly easy tasks that literal toddlers scoffed at for being dumb.
LMAOOOLOLOLOL
>>59016544No, you don't get it. My team is really good because each member achieves the exact same goal of beating the other Pokémon. What's the point in having a team of six where five of them achieve completely different tasks? You only have one Pokémon that wins every battle, how will you feel safe on the chance that it loses/runs out of PP during your usual one Pokémon sweep of the League and you're left completely helpless because you naturally refuse to use items like Revives? What are you going to do Checkmate? Use a Revive? Checkmate
>>59016552>>59016544I don't know why Pokemon haven't just added an skill tree system, make the HM something appart and be able to manage which attacks to use freely instead of the learn/forget method.
>>59016348>having to mash A to get out of snowdidn't play the game
>>59016866>Why should I put any effort into my argument when you're not going to put effort into yours?Lot of words just to say "please accept my concession".
Geg the schizobro can't explain how taking multiple hours to get a comp team is less of a waste of time than spending 1 second to use Cut.
>>59016710HM slaves reward players who know the game well enough to choose mons that learn lots of HM moves. it also represents part of Tajiri's original vision, one where some pokemon aren't good for battling but can be used for labor and transportation.
>Your bag by default has only 10 spaces>In order to get more, you have to designate one Pokemon as an item holder, which adds 20 slots per Pokemon>However, Pokemon holding your items take a 30% penalty to all statsI think this will make my Pokemon feel like they contribute more than just battling :)
>>59017523Sounds good to me, you guys are always whining about how pokemon games are piss easy trash, some balance like that would be great actually.
Maybe children are getting dumber?Maybe technology is making things easier?Maybe both.
now he's saying HM slaves are all part of the keikakuget a hold of yourself man
>>59017747You will never be japanese
>>59017747No you just think anyone that developed a game before you were born were fucking neanderthals. Do you seriously think they didn't consider that?
>>59016873>That's not a property of the HM system,No, but it does mean that HMs aren't actually a tradeoff. >The series gives you six slots and type matchups for a reasonAnd the game is so poorly designed that there's no reason to use them because min/maxing is better.>If someone decides to overlevel one starter and ignore the rest of their team, that’s not evidence the tradeoff doesn’t exist.Actually, it is, if overleveling one starter and ignoring the rest of their team is easily the best strategy (which it is) and there's no real reason to do anything else.>That’s because the mechanic is meant to tie exploration to your active party during the storyToo bad there's parts of the game that exist other than the story. Which means HMs are a dogshit mechanic.
>>59017361Lots of words just to say "I can't defend my favorite game"
>>59018277What about Ryback?
Geg he came back hours later to parrot me.
Geg he came back hours later to still not have a fucking argument
>>59015766That's what happens when you want to put some complex story in a video game. You need to make it accessible to the most incompetent tards who need to consoom your cinematic masterpiece. That's why easy mode in a lot of games is called story mode when it's probably more accurate to call it scrub mode.
>>59018717>>59017371
>>59018740>maybe if I claim it’s multiple hours when it’s not multiple hours I can pretend I have an argument
>>59018744Well how long is it?
>>59018718>complex story>pokemon
>>59018749Well how are HMs not a pointless chore?
>>59018757I accept your concession.
>>59018772>I-I won because I said so!Maybe one day you’ll figure out how to actually defend your favorite games, sagie.
>>59018774It's not an argument when you refuse to engage with me on anything.
>>59018781>HMs good because I say so>no I will not elaborate on how they’re good>”WHY WON’T YOU ENGAGE WITH ME!!!???”Get an argument, sagefag.
>>59018787Your claims here >>59016348 are what I was arguing with you over.
>>59018793No, actually, you didn’t. You just immediately deflected to talking about other Pokemon games and mechanics for some fucking reason instead of giving a single argument for how HMs aren’t a waste of time.
>>59018809It's not a random deflection, I'm making a point. HMs are so quick to use you might as well think the whole game is a waste of time.
>>59018821>th-they’re quick to useSo? They still have no reason to exist in the game.
>>59018824Yeah they do, for natural roadblocks you need your party to get past.
>>59018840Gen 7+ already has natural roadblocks without requiring a shitty pointless HM mechanic. Find a better argument.
>>59018869It's completely disconnected from your party, meaning that there's no reason to use anything other than your overleveled starter.
>>59018886Oh…so exactly like the older games except now it doesn’t interfere in the postgame. Meaning it’s literally only an improvement. Thanks for proving my point.
>>59018869>Gen 7+ already has natural roadblocks without requiring a shitty pointless HM mechanicIt moves them to rental systems, it's not a good thing, the roadblocks should be removed with your own pokemon. 9 has the best middleground, sort of. I'd still rather it be done with your pokemon.
>>59018910>the roadblocks should be removed with your own pokemonWhy?
>>59018910>partner pikachu isn’t your own pokemon>koraidon isn’t your own pokemonGet a better argument, sagefag.
>>59018911It's your journey, you and your pokemon should overcome the challenges together.>>59018912You're so angry you're not even reading my posts properly. I already said 9 was good, LGPE I forgot existed honestly.
>>59018920>It's your journey, you and your pokemon should overcome the challenges togetherWhich you still do without HMs, retard.
>>59018920>You're so angry you're not even reading my posts properly. I already said 9 was good, LGPE I forgot existed honestly.So we agree HMs have literally no reason to exist and are a giant waste of time. Cool.
>>59018925>Which you still do without HMs, retard.It's only battles now, the overworld serves no purpose.>>59018927>So we agree HMs have literally no reason to existNope.>a giant waste of time.Too short to be a giant waste of time.
>>59018934>It's only battles now,So?
>>59018934>Nope.Yup. You haven’t given a single reason for HMs to exist.>Too short to be a giant waste of time.The fact that they exist at all makes them a giant waste of time.
>>59018936So the world is pointless and leaves no impact?
>>59018944>the world only has a point and an impact if I fetch a lv2 bidoof from my PC and click A in front of a rockThis just sounds like an admission that your favorite games have garbage world design.
>>59018947Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova, and Kalos are more memorable than the HM-less games.
>>59018964Memorable for having shitty time wasting mechanics? Yeah, true.
>>59018971Memorable for being actual worlds with actual game design, not empty walking simulators.
>>59018976>”actual game design” is clicking A in front of a rock
>>59016430Monster Hunter Stories fixed this shit by giving every monster HM functions outside of their movepool, which encouraged more diverse teambuilding
>>59016348>2026>people STILL don't know how route 217 worksGEEEEEEEG
>>59018979Gen 7+ fixed this shit by simply not including objectively awful mechanics in the game.
>>59018978Nu-GF can't even manage that I'm afraid.
>>59018984They can’t manage to put shitty time wasting mechanics into their games? Yeah, true
>>59018987I wonder if the quality of the games have increased now that they're gone.
>>59017583technology really is amazing
>>59018991I wonder if you’ll ever get an argument for HMs being a good mechanic.
>>59019884I just gave you one, did the map quality increase, yes or no?
>>59020236>LGPE has better maps than BW and BW2>LGPE doesn't have HMs while BW and BW2 have HMsNo.
>>59020245LGPE is riding off the coattails of the original games with HMs. I accept your concession.
LGPE has worse reviews than the other Kantos as well.
>>59020256LGPE doesn't have HMs while Gen 5 does. I accept that you can't actually defend HMs as a mechanic.
>>59015766Based gen 4 chad and fuck those sissies
>>59020274>LGPE doesn't have HMsThe blueprint did.The blueprint is more liked than LGPE.Gen 5 is more liked than LGPE too.
>>59020376>The blueprint did.LGPE doesn’t.
>>59020388And it's bad.
>>59020394How? You still haven’t given a single argument for HMs being good.
>>59020398>map quality has decreased>overall game quality has decreased when it should be going up if it was such a horrible mechanic>overworld becoming increasingly more pointless>gave pokemon more roles to play in the journey>some HMs weren't even bad like Surf and Strength
>>59020423All of these are false btw.
>>59020423>map quality has decreased>>59020245>overall game quality has decreasedI wonder if you’ll ever actually give a single reason HMs are a good mechanic instead of deflecting to other topics like a retard.
>>59020438You really don't the irony in needing to use a game that was originally designed with HMs? Why didn't you use Galar or Paldea? Might they be bad or something?>like a retardSeething so hard he needs to call me slurs. Acting high and mighty on an anonymous website.
>>59020449You really can’t make a single fucking point to defend HMs?
>>59021240You waited 4 hours and let the thread fall to page 10 to write this?
>>59021258You were given 4 hours and you still don’t have a single argument?
>>59021281I see you are profoundly mentally ill, illiterate, and unaware of what an argument even is. It appears to me all you care about is having the last word. Feel free to have it, but all you've done is emboldened my opinion on HMs and the failures of the newer regions.
>>59021240>>59021258>>59021306Why the hell did you assholes bump this thread?
>>59021313The schizobro needed the worst word, and he seems unaware of what saging is.
>>59021306>I’m going to call you illiterate and mentally ill to hide the fact that I keep deflecting to other topics instead of simply defending this supposedly good mechanic>It appears to me all you care about is having the last wordIf I cared about that I would have just saged the thread and let it die. But unlike you, sagefag, I’m actually able to support my points instead of resorting to childish tactics and shitposting.
>>59021339>deflecting to other topicsWhich were?>and let it dieBut you did let it die, why didn't you respond faster?>I’m actually able to support my pointswith regions built around HMs and not the nugen ones*No argument detected here, just more attacks on my character. Gonna call me retard next?
>>59021370>Which were?Crying about other mechanicsCrying about quantifying timeTrying to change the topic to genwarring>But you did let it die, why didn't you respond faster?But I didn’t let it die, why didn’t you come up with an argument?>with regions built around HMsLGPE doesn’t have HMs. Get a better argument.
>>59021384>Crying about other mechanicsComparing how much time is spent using HMs compared to engaging with other mechanics.>Crying about quantifying timeTrying to see if HMs even waste much time.>Trying to change the topic to genwarringSeeing if the game quality has increased since HMs were removed.See why I called you illiterate? All of these things relate to the topic at hand.>LGPE doesn't have HMsBut it's based on an HM game.What about Galar? Paldea? Why are you so afraid of acknowledging them? You have one response to prove to me the quality of the games have gone up from removing HMs or that's it. Argument finished with your loss.
>>59021427>talking about other thing instead of making a single point for how HMs are good>talking about other thing instead of making a single point for how HMs are good>talking about other thing instead of making a single point for how HMs are goodSee why I called you a deflecting retard? You can’t actually defend this mechanic that’s supposedly good.>But it's based on an HM game.But it doesn’t have HMs. What about an actual argument to defend HMs?
it’s funny how desperate he is to turn the argument into a genwar because he knows HMs are shit kek
>>59020245peak map design right here
>>59015908>>59016229OP is proof that ""Kinnoh"" ""fans"" don't actually enjoy Sinnoh, they just like Platinum.
>59021497
>>59021452>>59021459HMs are good because they lead to better map design. The games with HMs have better design on average than the ones without. I am not genwarring because I am not putting on specific gen over another, which is what you did actually >>59020245"On average" means you need to bring up more than one game btw.
>>59021459>>59021452Actually your very first post in the thread was genwarring >>59016348Seething at the DS entries for no reason.
>>59015766>that they never have to make any tough choices or trade offs AT ALLYou're confusing cheats like "infinite rare candies" with "asking if you need to use repel again"What most ideas presented in RGBY were a great novelty at the time where variety was very limited and it was the first games in the series, so of course we let it slide. But when time goes on, the moment when you add +100 Pokemon and way better alternatives for a roadblock, it shows the cracks here. Why do you need cut when there's sudowoodo who does a way better and engaging job at being a tree roadblock? Hell, fucking Shorlax did it way better back in Blue. The HMs were a interesting idea on paper, but it could had implemented way better without making it shit to sit through. The manga had this amazing idea with the Pokédex user's abilities, you can recreate HMs as the player's ability related to the Pokedex, unlocking more moves as you progress through the game, while you can also teach it to your Pokemon. Trading your Pokemon for evolution was also a neat novelty which died sooner the moment when you add shit ton of Pokemon, making them almost obsolete. Instead of scrapping it altogether, there's an alternative way to evolve your pokemon; but the catch is that it's hard to obtain without trading. And I don't mean by it's post-e4 shit. Just something like spam the move teleport as Kadabra to evolve into Alakazam. That way, it's more rewarding to obtain said pokemon without the lazy "stone evolution" method, having trading as the alternative way to obtain.
>>59021528>HMs are good because they lead to better map design>>59020245>b-buh I said on averageThe fact that there’s a single game without HMs with better map design than all the games without HMs means your point is entirely worthless. And you’re STILL trying to deflect to other topics like “map design” instead of simply explaining how HMs are good.
>>59021600>The fact that there’s a single game without HMs with better map design than all the games without HMs means your point is entirely worthless. No fucking way.You don't even know how averages work do you?Absolute moron. Illiterate too.And that's not even true. I don't think LGPE beats RSE for example.
>>59021717>B-BUH AVERAGESAverages are irrelevant if there’s a single counterexample that refutes your entire point.Still waiting for you to make an actual point instead of desperately deflecting to irrelevant topics like a retard.
>>59021731>Averages are irrelevant if there’s a single counterexample that refutes your entire point.KEKAROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
>>59021777>it creates better map design>even though the game with the best map design in the series doesn’t have HMs>please ignore how HMs have literally nothing to do with map design in the first place and I’m a deflecting retard
>>59021788That one's getting screencapped.Can't understand averages or any argument really. That's why you always think you win. Legit a 60 IQ clown. Can't argue with someone that can't read after all.
>>59021799The issue isn’t whether or not I understand averages, the issue is that averages aren’t even relevant to the conversation in the first place. Can’t argue when you’re a 50IQ deflecting retard.
>>59021809>that averages aren’t even relevantWell we just established you can't read, so how would you know otherwise?Illiterate Doesn't understand averages60 IQ raging retard
>maybe if I keep deflecting to averages I can hide the fact that I haven’t actually given a reason for HMs being good yet
>>59021871See >>59021799Your IQ is far too low for conversation.Offtopic but how would you feel if you didn't have breakfast this morning?
>>59021889See >>59021871How would you feel if HMs were actually good so you wouldn’t need to keep deflecting to other topics?
>>59021895>doesn't understand averages>can't read>doesn't know what the word deflect meansMight have to lower the IQ score but that's getting into severe mental retardation territory.
>>59021905>can’t give a single reason HMs are good
>>59021915>can’t read any of anon's posts
>>59021929I did read your posts, which is how I know not a single one has an explanation for how HMs are good. All you’ve done this whole thread is deflect from one topic to another.
>>59021946>I did read your postsNo, you're too low iq to understand what is being said, and you don't know what deflect means either. You don't seem capable of grasping what I'm telling you now.
>>59021952>No, you're too low iq to understand what is being said,No, you’re too low iq to explain how a mechanic is good.
>>59021969>you’re too low iqI, unlike you, understand concepts like deflection and averages.Can we wrap this up? You're too stupid for debating.
The 'key' HMs (the many 'press A to remove' ones) are objectively pretty terrible, but Surf can actually lead to interesting gameplay situations and has enough applicable locations to justify sacrificing a move or party slot for it; people would hate HMs far less if the rest of them received the same amount of depth. My ideal HM list for a game would probably be something like>Strength - make boulder puzzles more varied than 'move rock out of way' and allow loose furniture or other non-cave objects to be pushed as well>Fly - as is, but also allow the player to cross cliffs if they're level with each other and close enough (alternatively, could just work like ORAS soaring)>Surf - as is>Rock Smash - more like bombs in the Zelda series and designed to open up walls in caves (and buildings), breakability of wall may not always been obvious>Dive - adds full 3D movement in oceans (wouldn't work with pure 2D games, obviously)>Rock Climb - lets you scale most cliffs instead of just designated spaces>Cut, Whirlpool, Waterfall, Flash and Defog are all unsalvageableTo make working with HMs less awful:>HMs can be forgotten as long as there is at least one other mon in the PC that can learn it>The post-game lets the player 'internalize' an HM in a mon, making it usable without knowing the move, in exchange for a fee/sidequest/<insert requirement here>>No mandatory multi-HM gauntlets>>59017059>You want me to believe that there's all these super powerful creatures roaming about, tamed by humans that can command them, and not one of them is able to remove a tiny little bush until a 10 year old comes along with his Rattata?Cut's (as mentioned before) dreck, but I always interpreted the moves as being about discipline (e.g. carrying someone across water without them falling off, moving a specific boulder in a specific direction)>How does my rival traverse the region when their team never has any HM moves on it? HMs on a rival team would be kino actually
>>59015766All I have ever wanted was a pokebox "sort" function, the ability to access the Pokedex from the summary menu of my 'mon, and my little pal to follow me on the over world. I don't think I'm asking for too much.
i actually made a post explaining why HMs were good but everyone ignored it
>>59015908>railroaded players>gave you earthquakeYou mean the Earthquake TM in the hidden cave under cycling road? Your average player let alone average kid wouldn't find that. Nice bait.
>>59021991I, unlike you, can understand concepts like defending mechanics I like instead of deflecting to irrelevant topics.
>>59022696Are you a masochist? You keep coming back for me to call you a low IQ fool.Have you learned what averages are in the time you let the thread die?
You can tell sagefag is out of arguments because he’s more concerned about the thread getting bumped than actually defending HMs, and he’s assblasted he can’t get the last word in.
>"sage"fag>more concerned about the thread getting bumpedHuh?
>>59022916>Traits commonly associated with low IQ include a lack of curiosity, difficulty with problem-solving, black-and-white thinking, and poor interpersonal skills. Individuals may also show little interest in learning or personal growth, and they often overestimate their knowledge and abilities.Yeah, that's you to a T.
>>59015766Most current pokemon players just like the design and nothing else or fanatism (in a broken way) because none of them really plays the games or know the story of the title they are playing so they request the game to be easier because most of them don't/can't play rpg and can't read hence stuck in some part because skipped text.
>>59015766>Why are Pokemon players such babies? I've never seen a fanbase demand that the developers make things so easy and convenient that they never have to make any tough choices or trade offs AT ALLYeah, true. Just look at all the retards who bitch about SV not having level scaling.
>>59022928>guy who’s named after not bumping threads when he has no arguments has a meltdown when a thread gets bumped when he has no argumentsHuh?
>>59023549I am bumping the thread though.Your IQ is so poor you're not fully aware of what I'm doing. I'd feel bad for you if you weren't so proud of it.
>>59023559You are screeching whenever someone else bumps the thread and become assblasted over not having the last word though. Your IQ is so poor you throw tantrums instead of simply defending HMs.
>>59023563>You are screeching whenever someone else bumps the threadYou're hallucinating now? How mad are you? Little low iq mongrel can't handle some bullying.
>you're mad the thread is being bumped even though you're bumping it!!!!! Fuck I'm so smart at this!Kekyfunny!
>>59023575>You're hallucinating now?>>59021258>>59022788
>>59023580>you're mad the thread is being bumped because you’re visibly mad the thread is being bumped!That’s usually how it works, yeahStill waiting for a single reason HMs are good btw
>>59023588There's that illiteracy again. I didn't question why you bumped the thread, I asked why you waited so long to do it. Another one of your low iq tricks maybe, probably hoping I forget about the thread.>>59023591>visibly madHe is hallucinating. Holy schizophrenia.
>>59023602>There's that illiteracy againThere's that projecting again.>I didn't question why you bumped the thread, No, but you did get assblasted over it. Why are you so illiterate?
>you're calling me illiterate? W-Well you're illiterate!Kwab.
>>59016229Anyone that likes the Battle Frontier but dislikes the Distortion World should have their internet privileges stripped. Give me the contact info for your tardwrangler.
>>59018886Catching a Bidoof that you nicknamed Slave is not engaging with the party mechanics.
>>59016562No one is going to keep Cut or Rock Smash on their main monsters.
>>59017373Good thing that we're playing a game about battle and adventure and not an MMO where I can grind levels doing scut work with my HM slaves.
>>59024080why would you need levels for a pokemon that's not battling?
>>59023684Yeah the game is really tough when you can only use three 90bp 100acc moves instead of 4.
Because what call thmsekves fans are just because is popular but don't know story or shit about the game.>"fans" complain about scarlet/violet because have 200 pokemon in total.>forget that gold/silver only had 100 pokemon in total.>aren't aware that diamond/platinum only have 150 pokemon in total.
>>59024211>scarlet/violet because have 200 pokemon in total.Why is the ESL lying?
>>59024216Look at that butthurt crying baby!!.Having all the mons for pokedex doesn't equal to all the mons are catchable because there are only 200 in total to catch (100 per game) with the others requiring to exchange.
>>59023607It’s funny how you’re not even pretending to try to defend HMs anymore.
>>59025386You're unable to understand my posts anyway so I'm just bullying you for entertainment.
>>59026267WHY THE FUCK DO YOU KEEP BUMPING THIS THREAD? WHAT ARE YOU GETTING OUT OF THIS?
>>59026275Humiliation ritual for the schizobro
