actually gyarados could use water moves just fine in gen 1 because it had a special stat of 100, but that was split into a special defense of 100 and a special attack of 60.

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>Why did Game Freak design Pokemon where its strongest offensive stat is not the one its STAB moves use

>>59021249
Once upon a time, before everything was minmaxed to shit, a mon getting a pump to its non-STAB-move stat was a way of giving it more well-rounded coverage options. There was an understanding that the mon’s STAB and coverage using different stats could help equate their comparative power somewhat without the risk of making the mon too absurdly powerful.

That was back before mons got 150 base attack and 20 base special attack and a signature physical STAB with a 20% chance to induce sleep that hits 3 times with 95% accuracy and the ability to transform into a type that was immune to its primary check.

>>59021249
Even without STAB, it was still an incredibly good Pokémon, same with Gengar.

>>59021249
Types being Physical/Special was a mistake and they realized this then fixed it in Gen 4.

>>59021266
Hi there Jimothy Cool.

>>59021249
>Why did Game Freak design a Pokemon where I have to actually think about the mechanics instead of just mashing the A button like in my zoomer games?

>>59021266
I hate how boomers always thought about good game design as the number one priority in a video game

>>59021249
>>59021256
I get the sense that GF had always wanted to do a physical-special move split since but couldn't due to memory limitations.
The type-based system is literally never explained to you in-game and also just thematically doesn't make any sense. Ghost is not a special type but Ice is? Half of the PUNCH moves in the game are just arbitrarily not considered to be ATTACKS? It is so obviously a technical hack that they dropped as soon as it was feasible.

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>>59021265
>>59021266
>>59021392
Okay now explain why Dark being a Special type was actually a good thing

>>59021249
In gen 1 the design philosophy was very different
Most Pokemon were expected to use normal type moves to fill out their moveset
That's why Gyarados gets thrash and hyper beam as its real end game attacks
Types were seen more in a defensive way rather than an offensive way

>>59021419
>>59021503
I don't understand why some people try to assert that every mechanic in the early gens was meticulously planned out and play tested and balanced. These early gens are notorious for being held together with chewing gum and having a fuck ton of programming errors.

>>59021503
Jolteon got a hard-hitting flinch move for coverage

>>59021249
So glad they made the split in Gen 4

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>>59021503

>>59021709
Jolteon lost a hard-hitting flinch move for coverage

>>59021924
Damn that’s crazy. Sucks to suck

When you're a Jew — a worshiper of the demon god Baal — you gain enormous power from it in the worldly realm, but you know that hell awaits you in the end.

>>59021419
>I get the sense that GF had always wanted to do a physical-special move split since but couldn't due to memory limitations.
There are ROMhacks that implement the Physical/Special Split and are perfectly playable on Game Boy hardware so no, they simply didn't think too hard about game balance because VS Battles were a secondary multiplayer focus to Pokémon Trading and the games were entirely made of spaghetti code.

>>59021651
Yeah, that's how you got crazy shit like 90% Accuracy Blizzard (with a 30% Freeze chance in Japanese Red and Green]

Say it with me folx-
POKEMON *clap* IS *clap* AN *clap* OLD-SCHOOL*clap* DUNGEON-CRAWLER *clap*

Special types are special because the moves are akin to magic (hence "elemental types")
Physical attacks are types who attack with melee.
The game is based heavily on Dragon Quest, Shin Megami Tensei, Mother, and Final Fantasy Gaiden. It is meant to be a single player, battle focused, exploration heavy, dungeon crawling adventure in a modern urban sci-fi landscape.
Any complaints to the contrary of this fact are retarded and should be ignored.

>>59021966
>they simply didn't think too hard about game balance
and the games were more fun for it

>>59022040
>Special types are special because the moves are akin to magic (hence "elemental types")
>Physical attacks are types who attack with melee.
Now explain why it's a good thing that biting and crunching are elemental magical attacks instead of physical melee

>>59022040
Hasn't been that way since 1996 unc

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>>59021417
As opposed to bad design as top priority?

>>59021966
I don't think it's a coincidence that we got the Physical-Special split as soon as the DS made it possible to write mainline pokemon games in C instead of assembly.

>>59022040
>Dragon Quest, Shin Megami Tensei, Mother, and Final Fantasy Gaiden
the average pokemon fan has never heard of any of these and has no desire to play anything like these

>>59022086
I think they just realized that they should have done it in Gen 3 after already completely overhauling Pokémon data, IVs, EVs and making Natures and Abilities a thing

>>59022051
Making Bite Dark-type was a mistake, it should have been kept Normal and then Crunch could be Dark.
Think like this:
>Bite: Pokemon literally bites some nigga
>Crunch: Pokemon bites/clamps some nigga aided by the powers of Darkness to make it more powerful/painful to the opponent (hence defense drop)

>>59022097
Probably not, and most modern gamers in general because they're "dated". But they're the kind of thing Pokemon was originally going for, that's why in Gen I the dungeons are plentiful, full of useless dead ends, and have a jacked up encounter rate with little chance to heal. I would think at the very least most Pokemon fans would enjoy Earthbound though, Mother 1 not so much.

Even Gen II and to some extent III/IV had this ethos with regards to their dungeons, it's just that they became less common or shorter over time. And even Gen V which added healers in every single area, at the very least hit you with a brutal encounter rate, problem is the first thing works against that experience and just makes it baby-tier tedium without repels.

>>59021924
>BITE is hard-hitting

>>59021249
Because gamefreak did not create pokemon with comp faggotry in mind

>>59022275
Harder than Gen 1 Bite on Jolteon

>>59021419
>>59021651
I think its more these games were made by multiple people and they had differing forms of autism. Some probably wanted it one way and then another. The dev team has talked about how they don't really sit down and figure pokemon out. They get designed by one, another figures out type and move pool. It's an assembly line. I'm sure some people on the team put minimal thought into things, while others were hoping for more.

>>59021966
>There are ROMhacks that implement the Physical/Special Split and are perfectly playable on Game Boy hardware so no
but they were made by competent programmers

>>59021249
>mfw my favorite pokemon is still a shitmon even with the split
It’s not fucking fair

>>59022326
Skill issue, should of had a shillmon for a favorite

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>>59021503
most Psychic types were specially defensive, so a physical Dark type would be even more punitive than it already stood

additionally, the existence of Blissey provided a blanket check to all special moves

special Dark type was a good thing

>>59021503
Superior men understand what is right. Inferior men understand what will sell.

>>59022339
I get that they were trying to avoid massive powercreep in Gen 2, but what the fuck were they thinking with Murkrow and Sneasel's base stats? Fortunately they are 2 of the Pokemon who's Gen 4 evolution don't look like aids.

>>59022357
>what the fuck were they thinking with Murkrow and Sneasel's base stats?
what's the problem, exactly?
what could have / should have been different (within reason)?

>>59022369
505 and 510 respectively lol. But seriously, they're post-game (late game for Sneasel in Crystal only) and single evolution, with both being in the medium-slow level group. They shouldn't have early game shitmon tier stats. Pidgey, Spearow and Hoot Hoot are available at the start of the game, have much better base stats than Murkrow when they hit they evolve, and Spearow and Hoot Hoot are in a faster level group. Having Dark type isn't worth any of these trade offs.

>>59022369
The fact that literally any mon you throw at Silver's Sneasel and Karen's Murkrow can one-shot them clues you in. They have nothing defensive stats, and get nomoves

>>59021249
Flying is a physical type.

>>59022300
Don't move the goalpost, the hypothesis was that it wasn't possible, not that they just couldn't do it.

>>59021249
They were making a fun video game

>>59022403
>They shouldn't have early game shitmon tier stats.
they don't though
>Pidgey, Spearow and Hoot Hoot are available at the start of the game, have much better base stats than Murkrow when they hit they evolve
they don't though
Pidgeot has comparable Atk and Spe, it and Fearow have no SpA, and Noctowl only has SpD
>Having Dark type isn't worth any of these trade offs.
says who? it resists ghost and psychic and is supereffective against both
it makes the first gym town a breeze

>>59022407
so true, every mon should be min-maxed like Skarmory or total packages like Tyranitar

>>59022531
>if you wish cool looking Pokemon could do literally anything instead of literally nothing, you're just a comptard minmaxxer
Kys

>>59022531
Thinking in extremes like this is a sign of low-functioning autism or below-average IQ.

>>59022531
>haha, isn’t my false dilemma so funny guys
Do you ever get tired of this?

>>59022470
>doesn't learn a single Flying-type move in Gen 3

>>59022531
Im sure you're being sarcastic, but like honestly, why not? Why are some solid and useable, and others get terrible dump stats. If Murkrow had 70 def and sp.def that would still be fine without it being OP.

>>59022526
>Pidgeot has comparable Atk and Spe,
And more bulk due to higher bst
>Fearow have no SpA
And more bulk due to higher bst, better speed, higher attack, learns drill peck, and has stab return (again off a higher attacking stat with better speed)
>and Noctowl only has SpD
And HP, and slightly more defense. It's not a great mon, but there's clear bulk there. Plus stab return.

Murkrow is just shit, and it a shitmon you can't get until Kanto. One of the few blemishes in GSC.
>it makes the first gym town a breeze
lol wut?

>>59022586
While it isn't base stats, Stat Exp also makes early joining mons with mediocre BST massively stronger than later joiners with simlar BST. Even more than EVs do in later gens.

>>59022571
That wasnt the question.

>>59022586
>BULK IS EVERYTHING
that is the argument and hill you're dying on

>>59022574
>this scrawny midget bird should have 70 Def
start your game design career asap

>>59022542
>this mon with 90 Atk, SpA, and Spe is useless!!
*you're* not a comptard indeed, you're a campaignshitter

>>59022627
No, the hill I'm building a comfy camp on that you will never kick me off of is that Murkrow and Sneasel
>Have low stats that aren't even optimised
>Aren't available till post-game (except Sneasel in Crystal)
>Are in the medium slow level group
And are thus end game shit mons that don't even benefit from collective stat exp like early game shitmons do.

>>59022586
Murkrow should've been Falkner's ace instead of all Kanto birds. Both to feature a new mons, and he could have used Thief and given the TM which would teach the player early about the new held item mechanics and the new dark type all at the same time. And also the low BST of Murkrow would fit with such an early game gym. Literally everything fits better with that one change.

>>59022639
>90 Atk, SpA, and Spe is useless!!
You need to look up Murkrow and Sneasel's stats

>>59022639
IT
HAS
NO
MOVES
YOU
FUCKING
RETARD
Jfc kill yourself jys kys kill yourself you pathetic fucking excuse for a grub of a mongoloid
Goddammit I wish I could rip all of your innards out and dry them in the desert and boil them in my piss after and then feed them to your mother
You pathetic shitstain

>>59022650
I think maybe you should if you think it's 90.

>>59022655
>Murkrow has 85atk 85 SpA and 91 speed
So that's not even 90/90/90
>Sneasel has a very respectable 95 Atk, 115 Speed and a dogshit 35 SpA
And then you remember that Ice and Dark are both Special in Gen 2.

>>59021249
It makes them much more interesting to build and play. Not like today where EVERY Pokemon has a 120 100acc BP move that uses STAB + it's highest stat. It almost feels homogenous.
Despite not using any STAB moves in their best sets Gyarados and Gengar are very versatile and powerful

>>59021503
>LOOKIN GOOD
do you seriously play the games like this?

>>59022680
I know I'm dealing with a zoomoid here but do you seriously think that a Pokemon can only use moves of its type?

>>59022531
every pokemon to you is either magikarp or tyranitar? that seems kind of retarded

>>59022693
>This late game shitmon that has no good stab moves because of it's abysmal SpA and will be behind on stat exp is secretly great because it can learn generic coverage moves that are better used by all sorts of other pokemon
okay

>>59022706
>Strawman
You're lucky to be alive and unraped, not gonna lie.

>>59022711
>no argument
lel, thanks for the concession bro

>>59022722
Strawmen aren't arguments you stupid nigger.

>>59022726
See >>59022722

>>59022728
Raped bitch, keep crying

>>59022645
>>Have low stats that aren't even optimised
see >>59022639
>>Aren't available till post-game (except Sneasel in Crystal)
preestablished and irrelevant
>>Are in the medium slow level group
also irrelevant
remind yourself what exactly started this >>59022357

>>59022711
That's pretty explicitly your position. It's not a strawman.

>>59022653
you spend so much time sperging out that you neglect to check whether your particular autistic fixation is even relevant
it isn't >>59022357

>>59022680
ah, I see now
you didn't pay attention in mathematics class
that explains why you not only do not grasp the concept of rounding, but also possess inferior reasoning skills in general

>>59022697
tell that to those claiming murkrow's stats are unacceptable
because this is the only possible framing within which that would be true

>>59021658
Fuck, I already evolved my eevee, I wish I knew that ahead of time..

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>>59021503
You must be blind to not realize how bad this smear shit looks.

>>59021503
You use Super Eagle, you don't have human rights.

>>59022754
They are unacceptable given the context. It the same problem for Slugma/Macargo and Sneasel. Shit stats + late game availability + mediocre movepool (less so Macargo) isn't not a good combo anon. Quagsire and Noctowl don't have great stats, but they're available so early that these problems are somewhat mitigated (and their stats are still better than the first three I mentioned).

>>59021249
>>59022470
Why did Game Freak design Pokemon where its strongest offensive stat is not the one it has any STAB moves for?

>>59022739
Actually it started here
>>59022339
Point being Special Attack move + bad Special Attack mon vs high Special Defense = Why

>>59022484
Except it's not possible for incompetent programers to make something competent

>>59022793
you are deeply confused and can't keep track of a chain of posts and the discussions therein

you are projecting your own personal inquiry into a web of sequences wherein it had no other presence

>>59022823
It was a direct response to it what the fuck are you talking about

>>59021249

Early Pokemon kinda reminds me of the MTG color pie
Types had more unique roles before the split naturally as a result of their limited move pool which didn't always include a move for every strategy
A mon like Gyarados was more balanced because even though it had amazing physical stats and could be gotten very early it wasn't so easy to just sweep everything with one physical stab water move because those didn't exist
Now every type gets perfect physical and special attacks they can all use
Now Gyarados can just hit waterfall and roll over everything
What reason is there for Gyarados to even have a sp atk stat at all anymore
It's just wasted design space
Gyarados should just have 185 atk and 0 sp atk
That's how you design a "usable" Pokemon now

>>59022840
*it* was a direct response to *this* >>59021503 which has virtually nothing to do with >>59022793

please go play some brain age or something; you have a dysfunctional iq level

>>59022849
>What reason is there for Gyarados to even have a sp atk stat at all anymore
>It's just wasted design space
you were doing okay until this campaignshittery

>>59022849
>asn't so easy to just sweep everything with one physical stab water move because those didn't exist
The flip side of this was that the few pokemon lucky enough to get good offensive stats and matching high power stab moves were absolute wrecking balls that utterly outclassed everything else. Alakazam, Tauros, Starmie, Jolteon, Snorlax and Exeggutor etc

>>59022785
Because gen 1 STAB moves are meant to be rare back then, and something special a mon could have. Pinsir also gets no STAB moves at all. Normal type was especially strong because it could easily get STAB, and that also set the starters apart.

>>59022812
That's not the point, it'd be like if I tried to explain away the Special stat not initially being split into S.Atk and S.Def because of "technical limitations"

>>59022339
>most Psychic types were specially defensive, so a physical Dark type would be even more punitive than it already stood
wasn't the entire fucking point of the dark type to nerf psychic? why would dark moves being bad against psychic types be a good thing?

>>59022849
>That's how you design a "usable" Pokemon now
How you design a usable Pokemon in the modern day isn’t to give it Deoxys-A tier stats, it’s to synergize its stats with its movepool + ability or just give it special snowflake stuff. Look at Garg and Annihilape.

>>59022890
Do you honestly thing the point was to make psychic entirely unusable, or are you just pretending to not understand

>>59022882
>Because gen 1 STAB moves are meant to be rare back then
Unless it's surf

>>59022915
surf really should've been 60 power

>>59022915
And Ice Beam. And Hyper Beam. And Psychic, and Thunderbolt.

>>59022857
It was an assertation of doubling down on preemptively nerfing Dark by giving the moves to Pokemon with shit Special Attack, especially Dark-types that needed the STAB to take down Psychic-types that were typically Special walls. Same reason Fighting was shit in Gen 1.

>>59022882
>Because gen 1 STAB moves are meant to be rare
Why are they still doing it in Gen 2 and 3?
See >>59021503 who learns no STAB moves besides Hidden Power

>>59022896
2026 4chan userbase legitimately averages in the sub-normal IQ range

>>59022929
Only two (2) out of the six (6) Dark types have a poor special attack stat, and one of them is a defensive wall with poor offense period.
By virtue of being Dark type, they already possess an advantage against Psychic types.

You pretty much don't understand game design, and definitely not Pokemon's on any appreciable level.

>>59022857
>>59022932
>obsession with IQ

>>59022951
>insecure about IQ

they couldn't have made dark type moves physical because it would be too strong against psychic types. shadow ball is fine though.

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>>59022571
>>59022785
I like how even ingame trainers had to resort to Hidden Power to give it a proper STAB move

>>59022957
you're the one who brought it up.

>>59022571
What flying move would gyarados get through? None of the flying moves actually fit on it. Its a flying type without flying moves

>>59022971
Really should have been Water/Dragon, but that's such a busted combo and would make Gen 1 Dragonite look even worse.

>>59022964
you're the one framing that as a bad thing
that I need remind you of that is telling in itself

>>59022960
lmao
>>59021249
>>59022785
>>59022958
I wish Eurogamer or IGN or one of the big game journos will make themselves useful and ask Morimoto about these in an interview one day
It's time we get some real answers straight from the man responsible for it

>>59022915
Yep that was a standout. Like, one thing that is unusual among a trend. One might almost say "rare". Like I did.
>>59022924
Single use TMs.
>>59022931
Gyarados is a gen 1 pokemon, keep up.

>>59022988
you're making an ass of yourself

>>59021266
EVs were the beginning of the end imo

>>59022958
Gengar: base 65
Misdreavus: base ~55

>>59022998
you suffer from ressentiment as well as low iq

>>59022958
Are you under the impression that shadow ball was a special attack or something

>>59023009
holy fuck you're retarded

>>59023009
I'm afraid you have poor reading comprehension
perhaps it's time for bed for you

>>59022996
Mawile is a gen 3 pokemon, did you not even finish reading the post before typing your reply?

>>59023014
Sorry you made absolutely no point at all but blaming me for not making one up for you isnt the play

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>ressentiment

>>59023017
I dont care about mawile, I was talking about gyarados. You replied to my post about gyarados.

>>59023004
that's cool and all but there are other pokemon with higher physical attack that can learn shadow ball. and some of them are dark type.

>>59023021
>Sorry you made absolutely no point at all
see >>59023014 & >>59023016

also reminder to everyone reading that this is the average 4channer nowadays
you get to have lovely chats with such brilliant minds and genuous hearts as this one

>>59023024
and my point was that this shit was not exclusive to Gen 1 mons

>>59023016
So you're aware that ghost is a physical type? Ghost, the type that was already in gen 1, when psychic was OP? I know you're hiding behind the snark to pretend you didn't say something retarded, I comprehended what you wrote just fine.

>>59023027
>say something retarded
>get called retarded
>"tch, he simply did not understand my genius..."
Its a weird cope but whatever makes you happy.

>>59023026
they aren't immune to Normal and Fighting moves
they don't have Perish Trap

It's exceedingly obvious at this point that you are incapable of seeing forests and can only focus on individual trees one at a time with no capacity for understanding how they relate to one another as a landscape so to speak

wouldn't be surprised if you don't even understand that metaphor either

>>59023036
>they aren't immune to Normal and Fighting moves
okay but we're talking about psychic types here

>>59023042
You explicitly were not. You were talking about ghost moves and then named dark types.

>>59022996
Yeah, but for Water pokemon having a powerful stab isn't special, since they all get surf through an HM. As for other types
>All Fire mons bar Moltres learned Flamethrower naturally
>Strength gives pretty much all Normal mons an 80 power stab (and there's Body Slam albeit only as a TM)

Also define rare. Because TMs like Earthquake and Dig aren't reusable, but they do mean your Ground Pokemon is going to have an incredibly powerful STAB move (for those that don't learn either natively), same with Psychic, Blizzard (and Ice Beam), Thunderbolt etc. It's really only Flying, Fighting, Ghost and Bug that got absolutely fucked over when it came to stab moves.

>>59023031
psychic was immune to ghost in gen 1
and the only ghost type move that had type effectiveness was lick

>>59023042
You have no idea what you're talking about, as you want to change the supposed subject every post.

People playing FRLG will find out why Sneasel and Gengar benefitted from the split.

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>>59023045
you know what
i think you are being stupid on purpose

>>59023052
we don't post our diary entries here

>>59021503
>>59022931
Mawile has the most defensive typing there is
It's not supposed to get high power stab attacks
In fact no steel mon really did until Metagross only because it was a pseudo and even then meteor mash had a significant 85% accuracy tradeoff
Similar design to rock's low accuracy but unlike rock only Metagross got STAB meteor mash
Scizor only had metal claw and non-technician bullet punch
Magneton had literally nothing
Aggron got iron tail which is just a bad move basically a strictly worse meteor mash in the worst way possible (lower accuracy)
The design of steel type seems clear even still to this day
It's not an offensive type in general (except that time they gave Jirachi iron head but he's a legendary I guess so it's fine if he gets something stupid)

>>59023050
>"I'm a campaignshitter so I and others like me understand very well how the game's balanced"
no you do not

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>>59023056
ENOUGH
My ship sails in the morning. I wonder what's for dinner?

>>59023047
>All Fire mons bar Moltres learned Flamethrower naturally
Didn't feel right so I looked up Flareon (level 54) ans Rapidash (doesn't learn it) before I stopped checking. Good enough to know that no, it was still pretty rare. Flareon doesn't even get it until the E4.
>>Strength gives pretty much all Normal mons an 80 power stab (and there's Body Slam albeit only as a TM)
Do you think maybe I had already mentioned normal STAB being a strong advantage for the type. Like maybe I had preempted this statement already. Possibly.
>Also define rare
No. Look it up if you're ESL. We all know what rare means.

>>59023048
I dont know who you think you're telling this too but it may shock you to learn that I already knew that. Did you know the immunity was a glitch and not a design choice? How might this information be relevant to the conversation, let's practice critical thinking; Why is ghost types physical/special position relevant to my point.

59023062
Bucks gonna buck I see.

>59023073
>it may shock you to learn that I already knew that
did you? did you really????? did you really for real in real life?????????????????

>>59023068
>We all know what rare means.
Well apparently we disagree on what it means because I don't believe you can call it rare when the majority of Pokemon in Gen 1 get access to a strong stab either via level up, tm, or hm.

>>59023097
They dont. Hope this helps.

>>59023092
Struck a nerve?

>59023108
yeah, i think i did

>>59023111
>>59023092
You could not be more clearly broadcasting how mad you are right now even if you were actively trying to make it clear as a joke

>59023116
but enough about you

>>59023118
Do you need me to dog walk you to the point yet, or do you need some more time openly running in fear before you're braced enough. A little help to newfags who dont know posting culture yet; people only do the greentext post number thing when they're mad, because it means you think I'm trying to make you mad to farm (You)s, and you'd only think that if you were getting mad. It's an obvious tell once you're here for long enough.

>>59022630
oh so Xatu or Castform can take a hit, but Murkrow cant? Fuck off dude.

>59023127
didn't read but cool i guess

>>59023132
I know sweetie, it's going to be okay.

>>59023073
Since everyone else is too busy rightfully shitting on you, let me spell it out for you
The argument for Dark being Special is that Psychic having a Physical weakness would have been OP
Shadow Ball FUCKS that argument

>>59023137
Oh okay so you're also retarded. That wasnt the argument. Hope this helps.

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>59023136

This thread's such a bag of dildos it's embarrassing.
Removing the IP count enabled this shit.

>>59023144
We known you're mad you dont have to keep telling us.

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>>59022639
>>59022861
>>59022639
>campaignshitter out of nowhere
Were you raped by a campaignshitter?

>>59023137
The hard part about arguing with people like you is that you legitimately cant read but if I try to overexplain things to get it down to your level then you'll just think I'm being condescending and so you overreact and shut down, so there's really no getting through to you.

>>59023103
>Venasaur: Crit Leaf
>Zard: Flamethrower
>Blastoise: Surf
>Raticate: Hyper Fang, Body Slam, Double Edge etc
>Fearow: Drill Peck
>Raichu: Thunderbolt
>Sandslash: Dig, Earthquake
>Nidoqueen: Earthquake
>Nidoking: Earthquake
>Clefable: Body Slam/Strength
>Ninetales: Flamethrower
>Wigglytuff: Body Slam/Strength
>Dugtrio: Dig/Earthquake
>Persian: Slash/Body Slam etc
>Golduck: Surf
>Arcanine: Flamethrower
>Poliwrath: Surf
>Alakazam: Psychic
>Victreebel: Critleaf
>Tenacruel: Surf
>Golem: Earthquake
>Rapidash: Fire Blast
>Slowbro: Psychic/Surf
>Magneton: Thunderbolt
>Dodrio: Drill Peck
>Dewgong: Surf/Blizzard/Ice Beam
>Cloyster: Surf/Blizzard/Ice Beam
>Onyx: Earthquake
>Hypno: Psychic
>Kingler: Surf
>Electrode: Thunderbolt
>Exeggutor: Psychic
>Marowack: Earthquake
>Lickitung: Bodyslam/Double Edge etc
>Rhydon: Earthquake
>Chancey: Body Slam
>Kangaskan: Body Slam
>Seadra: Surf
>Seaking: Surf
>Jynx: Psychic, Blizzard/Ice Beam
>Electabuzz: Thunderbolt/Thunder
>Magmar: Flamethrower
>Tauros: Body Slam
>Gyarados: Surf
>Vaporeon: Surf
>Jolteon: Thunderbolt/Thunder
>Flareon: Flamethrower
>Omastar: Surf/Hydro Pump
>Kabutops: Surf/Hydro Pump
>Aritcuno: Blizzard/Icebeam
>Zapdos: Thunder/Thunderbolt and Drill Peck
>Mewtwo: Psychic
>Mew: Psychic

All of these lines either learn by level up or can learn via tm/hm a stab move with more than 80 base power. This is by far the majority of Pokemon lines in Gen 1. Fuck you.

>>59023155
This is too real. It's either say it normally and be completely misunderstood, or dumb it down and get salty shitposting in response. Either way they're immune to any points or reason.

>>59023167
The fact that you included starters, normals, and surf really shows you didn't read a single word of what I wrote. And the fact that this list reuses TMs shows you dont understand the argument even being made, probably because of the former statement.

>>59023167
I skipped Starmie, Mr. Mine and Lapras, but they would be in that list too.

>>59023060
>Scizor only had metal claw
Steel wing?

>>59023128
>Xatu
literally based on (wooden) totem poles
sturdier appearance
>Castform
irrelevant later gen

>>59023174
Because your argument sucks
>Stab moves were rare
No they weren't. Unless you were doing a mono run you could always ensure your team had access to relevant stabs, and that's without getting into duping which every kid knew how to do. If you a deadset with removing TMs (which you shouldn't, it's a stupid idea) you'd still find most Pokemon are learning a decent stab somewhere. Jolteon and Zapdos would lose access to TBolt, but they'd still have Thunder etc.

>59023155
>59023168
least obvious samefag

>>59023137
see >>59023004

>>59023189
see >>59023026

>>59023185
I'm sorry but I'm not explaining what words mean to an ESL at 1 am. You're just going to have to accept that this one went over your head.

>>59023190
they don't get STAB

i like gyarados

>>59023186
>>59023189
>>59023190
This is the "shuts down in response to perceived condescension" I was talking about. You can't get through to anyone but none of you are reading and you're all getting mad about it.

>>59023191
The starters are not special in getting access to STABs. Normal Pokemon are not special in getting access to STABs. You are simply wrong.

>>59023204
You misfired on me. Ironic considering your post is about decrying not reading.

>>59023205
I know that you know the starters are standouts for easy access to elemental STAB because your obsession with TMs lead you to make a list of most who can learn good TMs.

>>59023212
I didn't. All three of those posters are clearly mad and halting genuine attempts at communication to just try to one up each other and get the last word in.

this post >>59023097 already names tm's then this post >>59023103 backed itself into a position from which it cannot win

>>59023183
>chikorita
again, fuck off

>>59023219
Do you even know what you're arguing about anymore

>>59023214
Dude, we've already been over that the majority of water pokemon learn surf or hydro pump via level up and the majority of fire pokemon learn flamethrower or fire blast by level up.
Grass Pokemon do admittedly kind of suck.

>>59023234
We have not been over that. You said it, and I pointed out that you were wrong, and you were either too illiterate to notice or pretended not to see it. Of course this is ignoring that you're sneakily adding fire blast when before you only said Flamethrower, I assume you adding another move now is part of you admitting to realizing that you were wrong about every fire mon but moltres learning Flamethrower naturally? That was your claim at first.

>>59023218
this post >>59022958 claims through facetiousness that Dark being special is undermined by Shadow Ball being physical if the purpose was balancing by lowering the former's powerlevel
this post >>59023004 retorts that the mons that get STAB on Shadow Ball have awful Atk and functionally cannot use it; it implicitly relies upon knowledge that the Dark types of the gen have much better and useable Atk stats
this post >>59023137 fails to acknowledge that its position therefore has already been debunked by this post >>59023004 when so exegesis'ed
therefore, this post >>59023189 was a simple reminder to refer to that retort for the purpose of putting that faulty argument to rest

I went through the trouble of explicating all this for you so that I could in no uncertain terms and beyond a shadow of a doubt proceed now to call you too a total fucking retard who should kill himself along with the other retards making shitty and irrelevant arguments they try in vain to push to their dying breath, wasting rational people such as myself's time disproving them

>>59023248
You seem to be under the impression that I was making a value statement about your position, which is weird because I included the person disagreeing with you in my post so I obviously wasnt taking a side then. Who is right or wrong has no bearing on what I said, which you'd know if you calmed down for a minute and actually read the post.

>>59023227
I'm not even involved in the argument, I'm just observing that >>59023214 shot himself in the foot, lost, and is now trying to keep up the charade that that isn't the case

he could have said something defensible earlier on, but he went full retard and is now stuck supporting a falsehood or else forced to admit defeat—but choosing the former, obviously

>>59023259
I know you're really worked up but there's no need to samefag like this.

>>59023245
Why shouldn't I be able to count Fire Blast? It's 120 base power fire move. Does that not count as a powerful STAB?
>Charmander Line, Vulpix Line, Growlithe Line, Magmar, Flareon all learn Flamethrower via level up.
That leaves only 2 lines (Moltres and Rapidash) as unable to learn a powerful fire stab via level up, but they can still learn Fire Blast via TM. That is not rare. Charizard is not special. You are wrong.

>>59023256
No, I'm observing that you seem to believe my response was unwarranted, and continue to do so despite my now having explained why that isn't the case and was in fact completely justified.

So now I am reiterating that I really do believe you are not only genuinely stupid and should kill yourself, but you're also a self-righteous faggot on top of that that doesn't actually care about justice, just equity and the appearance of civility at all costs.

>>59022086
>as soon as the DS made it possible to write mainline pokemon games in C instead of assembly
The GBA had C code.
Also, it was viable to write C code for the Gameboy as well, but it wasn't common because most programmers were accustomed to writing assembly at the time.

>>59023263
Because you didn't. You said they all learn Flamethrower, they dont. Now you're saying I'm wrong about that because some learn fire blast. Thats irrelevant.

>>59023260
This deflection doesn't work and just makes you look even more pathetic to an outside observer. If you need to believe it's samefagging for your own sanity though, then carry on.

>>59023269
Kek, stop shifting the goalposts. You claimed Charizard is special because he gets easy access to a powerful fire stab. So do the majority of fire pokemon in Gen 1. Crying about my mistake regarding Rapidash won't change the fact that the majority (do you need to look this word up?) are learning a stab move with over 95 base power.

>>59023264
You mean to tell me that "see [post]" was a genuine attempt to convince him? Like, you legitimately thought he might have scrolled past that poat on accident or just hadn't seen it? That was a real and genuine attempt to communicate? No, we both know you were just being snarky in an attempt to get a one-up on your opponent, because you felt defensive about how you were being talked to. It was not a real and genuine argument that you thought would convince anyone. And that's what I said it was. That's why I didn't include you on accident.

>>59023222
another mon that is visibly sturdier than murkrow
you have a fanfic tier understanding of game design

>>59023273
I am identifying your goalpost move. That's not moving goalpost. You said one thing, I proved it wrong, then you said something else entirely and sais "we already went over this" laundering it as if it was your point from the beginning. It wasnt.

>>59023270
Say what you want but it's pretty obvious when the person making the arguments disappears at the exact same time that some stranger shows up to talk shit, that it's the person who was making the arguments who gave up and just wants to shit fling instead. You aren't slick.

>>59023283
No anon, you're deflecting because your original thesis back here >>59022882 is already proven wrong. The starters are not special, and stab moves aren't anywhere near as rare as you claimed they were.

>>59023274
Let's take your post for example. I recognize when the person I'm arguing with is both too stupid to understand what I'm saying, and too bad faith to accept it; so when I am responding, I'm doing so in such a way that convinces a rational witness, not the moron who has two layers of protection aforementioned preventing any such comprehension.

I do not care if you or the others grasp how I destroy you; most of the time, you are incapable of it, no matter how dumbed down I attempt to make it, no matter how painstakingly I spell it out. You are invested in the idea that you are more intelligent than you really are, and so your ego can never allow you to admit you were mistaken. You are the majority on this website. There is little to no fruitful discourse to be had here because of you and "people" like you. When people like me post anyway, it's for the viewing of people like me who can see all of this too.

>>59023295
Blatant falsehood in this post >>59023103
Then tried to weasel out of it here >>59023174
But after all,
>your ego can never allow you to admit you were mistaken

>>59023291
he didn't disappear, he was literally right here >>59023234 you fucking retard

>>59023292
I just want you to say you were wrong about every fire mon but moltres naturally learning Flamethrower, because I wont waste my time arguing with someone who is so squirmy they can't even hold their own arguments. After all if you cant admit when you're objectively probably wrong then you'll obviously never admit that I'm right about elemental STABs being rare no matter what arguments I make. If you were wondering why I'm holding you to this point so harshly, that's it. There's no point it arguing about anything else if you aren't honest enough for at least this at a bare minimum.

>>59023297
this >>59023295 is me
these >>59023103 >>59023174 are not
I'm not even on his side
you have gotten utterly lost in the sauce

>>59023295
Thanks for admiting that I was right, that you were not trying to communicate, and that you were in fact trying to get a dig in on your opponent. Like I said you were.

>>59023300
Bro, brush those tears out of your eyes and read. I'm more than happy to admit I made a mistake on which mons learn flamethrower. I did it >>59023273 and I'm happy to do it again. But it won't change the fact your underlying thesis is wrong.

>>59023295
Fucking kek

>>59023298
Did you think I missed that? Like, I already have a reply posted to it.

>>59023307
My thesis that good elemental STAB is a rare thing? Is wrong because single use items exist that grant that STAB?

>>59023305
On the contrary, you are further evidencing the accusation that you are a disingenuous self-righteous faggot by refusing to classify >>59023189 as """communication""" because it isn't a paragraph of text (as if that's owed to such retardation as "Dark being special doesn't make sense because Shadow Ball existed").

>>59023308
then you shouldn't have made up this nonsense justification for your samefagging delusion >>59023291 by pointing out a disjunct that you are now acknowledging didn't even exist

>>59023314
But you literally just said that you weren't even trying to talk to him anymore, it was directed at the perceived crowd instead. It was not a genuine attempt to communicate. Like I said it wasn't.

>>59023316
Ok, samefag.

>>59023317
You know what else you bitched about >>59023155 but now conveniently fell to the wayside recently (because it applies to you)? Not reading.

As a matter of fact, >>59023204
>"This is the "shuts down in response to perceived condescension" I was talking about"
doesn't apply to me to begin with, because my trigger is total fucking self-unconscious retardation, not your reddit ass pussy ass "condenscension" (I consider you beneath me to begin with)
you also accuse *ME* of not reading when I clearly do look in excruciating detail at what is being claimed to me

The one thing you are correct about is not getting through to the opponent. Know why? Because you all are stupid as fuck and don't want to know it.

>>59023326
Did you think that this post would convince me that you aren't just mad and looking to get a one-up in? This is stupid, you already admitted I was right but you're too mad to recognize it. I told you were weren't trying to convince him, and you said you realize he was stupid and so stopped trying to convince him. Go to bed.

>>59023313
Yes. Of course you you don't think non-purchasble TMs count, for some reason. But again, you have grossly under estimated how many Pokemon learn a solid stab move from level up or HM

>>59023330
If anything, we are now in a paradox where me proving you wrong somehow proves me wrong which proves you wrong ad infinitum.

I have said all I have any interest in saying.

>>59023331
You seem to still have a misunderstanding of what rare means. It is not the same as non-existent, and honestly I regret even giving you that hint to the meaning of the word after saying I wouldn't. Yes, TMs exist. They can only be used once. They are rare. Access to elemental STAB is rare in gen 1.

>>59023337
Its not a paradox, that's just straightforwardly what you said.

>>59023338
>Stab moves are rare because TMs are one use
>I'll just ignore all those moves Pokemon learn via level up and HM
If you are struggling to equip a team with stab moves I don't know what you are doing. A Pokemon having a powerful stab move is not a rare occurrence, it is a common feature of the game. You are given plenty of tools to do that. You clearly don't trust me, so why don't you spend some time researching it the gen 1 move list.

>>59023350
If I said a good moveset was hard to access you might've had a point there.

>>59023352
>>59022882
>Because gen 1 STAB moves are meant to be rare back then
This is what you said. I have given you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you meant GOOD STAB moves.

>>59023359
Yes. Now can we spot the difference between what I said and what you've been arguing against?

>>59023359
Allow me the audacity to double post so I can try to make it clear to you. Follow along:
>Porygon is a rare pokemon
>anyone can get a Porygon
Both of these statements can be true, and in fact both of them are true. Now, let's apply the lesson we just learned to the next statement
>good elemental STAB was rare in gen 1
Do you think saying anyone can use a TM makes this statement untrue in any way? Remember, anyone can get a Porygon, and yet it is still rare.

>>59023361
I dunno anon, can you actually prove that they were rare?

>>59023277
>visibly sturdier
not even dude. A leaf blob should not be tankier than a crow. You've lost your credibility. A fully evolved mon should be capable, end of story.
>fan fic tier
>posts head canon reasons things should be better
>ignores gen 3 conveniently for own argument
not me dude, you.

>>59023374
That wasnt the question.

>>59023377
I'm asking you to prove your claim anon. You can claimed they were rare, go prove it.

>>59023378
It's self evident. If you want more effort in an explanation than that, stop being a disingenuous ass first. I wouldn't waste my time convincing you if you arent going to be a good faith participant.

>>59023375
"Its like holding a bird" is literally a common expression to describe something fragile.

File: Fatchu2.jpg (24 KB, 450x600)

24 KB JPG

>>59023383
One would assume if that you were arguing in good faith you would take the time amass the evidence.
>It's self evident
What next, you'll tell me it came to you in a dream?

>>59023392
I already made an effort to lay it out in a way you could understand and you skipped the post to shitpost like this isntead. You want me to do it again to your new angle you shifted to? Why would I bother when you're clearly not talking in good faith, you wouldn't care no matter what I wrote.

>>59023387
>leaf > bird
you're holding to this logic, Im saying games don't have to, an evil bird can be hardier, video games don't have to bend over and take it, but even your logic has failed.

>>59023407
Chikorita has a leaf, but is not a leaf. Just like murkrow isnt a feather. Hope this helps.

>>59023395
You're dishonest and intellectually lazy. You've made a claim with no attempt to back it up. You were wrong about fire stab moves being rare. You are also wrong about electric too. The majority of them learn Thunder or Thunderbolt via level up. That is not "rare". I won't do any more homework for you. Either prove your argument by demonstrating which Pokemon do/don't learn stab moves and make an argument for why that number counts as rare, or admit your wrong. Or keep thinking this >>59023295 if it helps you sleep at night.

>>59023419
You're really going to say I made no attempt to back it up in reply to the post where I point out that you skipped the post where I back it up, and call me the disingenuous one?

>>59023428
I must have missed it, which post is it?

>>59023432
I'm not doing this again. Go to bed.

>>59023436
So now you're just making up magic posts that you claim support your argument. lmao.

>go to bed
It's not even late, cunt.

>>59023410
>video games don't need to make sense
>"Actually" they do
Nope, you're being inconsistent as fuck.

>>59022097
Back in 96 we do you fuckface zoomers.

>>59022627
>>59022526
Murkrow is a shitmon.
Stop trying to make it work.
No one ever uses it, and they wouldn't even use it if you could get it before the Elite 4.
>>59022639
>it can use return just like everything else but badly!!!

>>59023068
>>59023103
Why do retards like you not even play the games that you post about?

>>59023300
You literally never played Pokemon Red Blue or Green, because outside of monsters like Nidoking that are evolved with stones, almost everything learns a good STAB attack by level up.
I rolled a random number generator 3 times
>135
Jolteon learns Thunder
>87
Dewgong learns Ice Beam
>3
Venusaur learns Razor Leaf

You don't play Pokemon games, try doing it one day.

>>59022849
The Ultrabeasts already did the minmax thing, and most are shitters.
What makes a good monster is balance, typing, abilities, and movepool, until you get into box legendary stats.

>>59021249
>one of the best gen1 mons that is available at Mt. Moon.
>able to be farmed for good IVs with old rod
Pokemon is a RPG meant to be discovered and can be beaten with any mon, especially in gen1&2 where all six EVs can be maxed and badge boosts make even the worst statted mons viable. Even later games poor natures and suboptimal EVs still make a good mon.

>>59022526
It's funny how stupid and autistic you are.

>>59024643
we do not post our diary entries here

>>59022849
>Now every type gets perfect physical and special attacks they can all use
Unless you're Electric I guess lol
All the good physical moves for those are reserved for Pikachu, Legendaries and Mythicals
Steel was pretty bad until Iron Head was made and even then only was made relevant by Fairies

>>59022571
Hidden Power Flying?

>>59024396
Sorry you cant read

>>59022040
This comparison doesn't work because Pokemon doesn't have any kind of standard melee attack like those old school RPGs.
Magic-based classes were balanced by being more resource intensive, using up more MP or whatever even on mook enemies while physical classes could get by with just a basic attack.
No such distinction existed in Gen 1, and certainly doesn't exist now.

Gen 3 was a weird time where many Pokemon couldn't either because of the shitty movepools or didn't run them because of pre-split.

Gyarados wasn't even that bad despite not running Water moves, even if it does feel very weird. But Hidden Power Flying was actually solid. Same shit with Gengar.

>>59022267
>I would think at the very least most Pokemon fans would enjoy Earthbound though, Mother 1 not so much.
Mother 1 is where I would agree with dumb zoomers on the "clunky outdated" meme. Its genuinely unbearable to play, and even Tajiri wrote an old review criticizing its game design.

Ackshually, Gen 3 is based for this because competitively a lot of mixed sets are used, which I prefer over only maxing one of the attack stats and use the respective phy/spe move.

>>59021249
Because STAB was meant to be a BONUS, hence the term same type attack BONUS. Sometimes your STAB types lined up with your strongest stat and you were a very strong Pokemon. Sometimes it didn't and you were still a respectable Pokemon. Pokemon weren't expected to all be min/maxed and all made for competitive. That design paradigm didn't really start until Gen 5.

>>59021249
Dunno, but if you're expecting to hit hard with your Gyarados by using water attacks, you're using her wrong.
Teach her earthquake or something that uses her attack stat, you can modify her movepool when you transfer her to the newer games.

>>59026188
>>59026354
>>59026453
What are we supposed to do with a mon that has high physical attack but the only useful moves it has access to are special moves?

>>59026704
depends on the mon
there is no blanket "solution"

>>59026704
Even in Gen 1 most mons could learn a handful of Normal type physical moves. Mega Punch, Body Slam, and Hyper Beam all will hit hard enough off of a good attack stat.

>>59026731
>>59026850
How about Mawile? (RSE)
It learns Crunch, Flamethrower and Ice Beam which are fantastic moves but runs off its 55 base SpA
The best physical moves for its 85 base Atk are only Strength, Return and Sludge Bomb, maybe Hyper Beam as a finisher before it gets revenge killed while recharging

>>59025806
>This comparison doesn't work because Pokemon doesn't have any kind of standard melee attack like those old school RPGs.
It’s called the Normal-type anon, Genwun is IRREFUTABLE proof of this being the design intent

>>59026998
I think Mawile was just supposed to be a baton pass meme
or at least that's how Colosseum trainers try to cope with it

>>59027105
I always thought Mawile was supposed to be a Stockpile meme since the Stockpile moves are the final moves in its learnset at Lv46
Among the Hoenn mons that learn Stockpile (Mawile, Pelipper, Swalot, Cradily), Mawile is the one with the highest physical attack for Spit Up

>>59027045
This
>most mons just get normal moves from leveling up, with other types relegated to TMs
>rock types are supposed to be actual threatening mobs for this reason, with hikers fought in cave dungeons
>game gives you water gun and bubblebeam early on (“spellbook” equivalents) with the intent being you experiment and give them to Rattata or Clefairy or something, to give them an edge in cave onslaughts where they would otherwise be less effective
>fighting type shows up as an “oh shit” special sort of melee that can actually hurt rocks, later on in the game
>the three ghosts are completely immune to all manner of normal attack, and even the fighting attacks, aka how they would function in other RPGs

>>59025550
Hidden Power is not reliable. You have to specifically target it to get the one you want. Being a huge pain to get without extra tools. That's just type, cause the power rating is also a factor, Below 50 power you're probably better off just using a normal move.

>>59027105
>stockpile cannot be baton pass'd
literally why not? God forbid this cumbersome move set be slightly easier to use.

>>59026704
>the only useful moves it has access to are special moves?
It gets DD from leveling up and can learn EQ, Return, Double Edge, and HP for physical moves. It's good enough to be OU in fanfic meta, a consistent S tier for nuzlockes, and obviously great for normal gameplay as well.

>>59021249
how come he still doesn't have draco ascent?

>>59021966
>There are ROMhacks that implement the Physical/Special Split and are perfectly playable on Game Boy hardware
There's leftover code in Gen 3 from GameFreak trying to implement it before launch. Same for the day/night cycle.
Nodevs will never understand time is the biggest limiter for game development, not money or coding knowledge.

>>59026704
Use Earthquake and Double-Edge

>>59022693
Yes, or people wouldnt have memed Flareon and its 130 attack returns for literal decades.

>>59027332
>There's leftover code in Gen 3 from GameFreak trying to implement it before launch
Can you link to the TCRF page documenting this?

>>59022882
"Rare" was a poor choice of word, every reply thinks you mean a stab move was seen once every 5 mons or some shit

>>59023026
And those pokemon do not receive a 50% STAB damage boost. You're proving his point.

>>59023047
As opposed to now where pokemon get a 40 BP stab at level 5, a 65 BP stab at level q5, a 75 BP stab with a doubles mechanic at level 20-something, 80 BP signature stab move at 36, and pick of the mix of90/120/80 with good side effect/140 with negative side effect?

>59023127
>people only do the greentext post number thing when they're mad
citation needed

>>59023350
>why don't you spend some time researching it the gen 1 move list
Maybe compare those gen 1 move lists to gen 5+ and come back with some understanding.

>>59023026
banette is fun af
shadow ball + hp fighting is a good combo
forget what else it learns but its probably also sick af

>>59021249
>be me
>play crystal
>pick feraligatr
>catch red gyarados
>i now have 2 water types with better physical than special
What now?

good old yawn larp

>>59027360
Having nomoves is only one part of why Flareon is so bad though, getting Flare Blitz in XY didn't make it any faster or bulkier lol
>>59025550
Needing Hidden Power for STAB on a type was always retarded

>>59027818
Red Gyarados is guaranteed to have an HP IV of 0 because it has a 14/10/10/10 IV spread instead of at least a perfect Attack IV, and it's not gonna have the stat EXP Feraligatr would, so if you picked Totodile it's not worth using.

>>59021266
And that resulted in exactly one team being viable for the entire gen
At least modern games let you have two

>>59027045
>>59027203
Except Normal type moves still use PP like everything else. There's fundamentally no difference between physical and special moves in Gen 1, except that special is just plain better most of the time.

>>59023529
>Pokemon didn't release in the west until late 1998
>It was called Dragon Warrior until VIII in the west
>Shin Megami Tensei wasn't released in the west until Nocturne
>Mother didn't release in the west until 2015 and Earthbound was a flop
>Final Fantasy Gaiden was a forgotten Game Boy game because it was seen as just worse Zelda (I think that anon meant Final Fantasy Legend anyway, which nobody liked on release)
Imagine being this much of a larping retard. I want to kill you.

>>59025806
It's not meant to be balanced in the way you're thinking. At it's core the game is rock-paper-scissors combat and nothing more, the styling of the types gave it flavor. It wasn't done perfectly (see Vine Whip having 35PP), but PP are meant to be the resource management where the physical type attacks all have lots more PP than powerful special moves, like using Tackle you wouldn't run out in normal gameplay so it's akin to striking with a weapon whereas you only get 5 chances to use Fire Blast. Hyper Beam is a notable exception.

>play Gen 1 and 2
>Stat EXP means my bros will be powerful no matter their base stats as long as I train them
>use Feraligatr with Surf, Ice Punch, Crunch and ThunderPunch without issue
>have fun
Wow that was hard

>>59028092
>ThunderPunch
Nice Gameshark

>>59028092
Crunch was an Egg Move for GSCgatr though

>>59027970
>And that resulted in exactly one team being viable for the entire gen
?
I'm smelling a campaignshitter post

So since thread's already a clusterfuck of shit takes, here's mine: gen 2 splitting the special stat into SpA and SpD did more damage than anything else ever since.

>>59022339
>so a physical Dark type would be even more punitive than it already stood
The issue is they just straight up forgot to make most Dark types special attackers. So it went from "A possible nerf kept under control" to "Lol? What nerf."

>>59028058
>Shin Megami Tensei wasn't released in the west until Nocturne
Imagine the Satanic Panic if it was released earlier.
There would probably be bomb threats against stores that were selling them.

>>59028250
It's a fine idea in theory but it was frankly PROBABLY unnecessary and helped add complexity.

>>59028273
>Satanic Panic
I would say the issue is less Satanic Panic, you can kill Lucifer and all that, and more the fact it portrays American Christians as insane genocidal madmen who want to nuke Tokyo and whose god is a objectively evil madman.

>>59028280
Unnecessary? There's no reason whatsoever to have a combined special stat that controls both offense and defense when physical stats are separate. Especially in a game where stat boosting moves are so common it just isn't fair.
The only other option was to merge Attack and Defense into Physical and go from there.

>>59027982
The fundamental difference between normal and the other 14 types in Gen 1 is that everything gets a damage dealing normal move by default, while other types are either relegated to TMs or appear sparsely in level up pools. Special types in Gen 1 were also rarer than physical types, with the exception of water which a player wouldn’t find for themselves until essentially the endgame of Kanto.

The gen 1 system made sense before they added supernatural stuff and more cerebral types. Fire and water are obviously different than rocks and dirt. Grass should be physical, but it likely became special to work better as a trio with the other two. We know a number of types like ground, ghost, dragon (and ice?) were added later, so the lack of moves and physical/special assignment wasn't subject to as many years of revisions like the earlier types. Same with rock being split into two types and why both types had a sparse selection of moves. Bug was obviously meant to be the shit type, the fist one kids discover.

But there's no excuse for fighting. What the fuck happened there?

>>59028390
It makes special feel unique and to a certain extent it makes sense that more magic pokemon are good at both defending and attacking other special moves.

The main advantage of splitting the two is that it allows overall base stats to be higher since special basically counted for two. It also allows more choice in how you buff your pokemon. Giving moves like Amnesia a niece.

>>59028390
Made sense for the more traditional rpg stats
>HP
>Attack
>Armor
>Magic
>Speed

>>59021249
My guess is its stats and early availability in the game were supposed to make up for that. A lot of old Pokemon was designed with traditional JRPGs in mind, not PVP (despite being the main draw today).

>>59028250
It needed to happen, the problem was how they seemed to just use a darboard to decide whether or not a pokemon would get an increase or decrease to either Sp.Atk or Sp.Def, or if its stats would effectively remain unchanged because both stats were kept the same. As such we ended up seeing Charizard and Arcanine blessed with extra Sp.Atk while Articuno and Flareon ended up nerfed in the same stat while Venusaur was unchanged.

>>59028732
Yeah but as described above there's almost no penalty to exclusively using "magic" attacks and you'll never run out of them, so when every other hit is one it becomes cheap. Either you're a high-Special monster that can spam hard hits and also eat them (in general Special Attacks have better BP in Gen 1) or you aren't and get nuked by said monster. Even with limited learnsets, Psychic having 20 PP, and even Psybeam at 30(?) is more than enough to sit around and sweep through a team, which is really cool boss monster design, but the player gets access to that same strategy or others like them very early on.
That and Stat EXP makes it so that you can do the same thing with your starter once you get a good move (RIP Venusaur)

>>59028092
If you want to lie, you can at least look up the movesets before you lie you fucking braindead retard

>>59028732
Magic has always had its physical equivalent in resistance, magic defense or whatever that stat tends to be called.

>>59029758
>he doesn't remember a game from fucking 20+ years ago???? Stop the presses!!
You're lucky I won't see you irl because you wouldn't just be dead, you would be eviscerated and hung to dry. You faggot little fuck

>>59028272
you still don't get it and obviously are mostly talking out your rear

Houndoom is 115

>>59030051
Sorry meant for
>>59028092

>>59028141
mindbroken by campaignCHADs

>>59028732
this