>is... is that a DUGTRIO? With ARENA TRAP??? AAAAHHH FUCK NOW I CAN'T SWITCH MY STALL TEAM IN AND OUT REPEATEDLY AD NAUSEUM TO HEAL PASSIVELY THROUGH REGENERATOR AND WISHPASS!!! SAVE ME OU COUNCIL!!!Why are smoggies like this?
>>59242528They're fags and bad at the game. Why do you care?
>>59242528Japs stall far more often than smoggies desu
>>59242528Dugtrio/arena trap was banned because it made stall too overcentralised retardbro.
Post elo>b-butNOW
>>59242528>Bro wtf? Why would Smogon ban Assiemon?
>>59242528Dugtrio was mostly used by stall teams to murder the things that would help you break through their nonsense.
>>59242528The entire reason Dugtrio was banned is because it made stall too good, retard.
>>59242552>>59242666>>59242781That's out of the ordinary for bans, isn't it? The only other stall pokemon that I can think of that got banned was Mega Sabeleye in the last week of ORAS. You could argue that other bans of powerful hyper offensive pokemon are nerfs to stall because stall, not balance, could only deal with them, but that's just indirectly, right?
>>59242832stall wasn't impossible to beat, but it was much harder with dugtrio because they'd just trap their your answers to them and proceed to stall you out
>>59242627>weak to pebbles
>>59242832HO often affects Balance way more than stall though, so banning a HO mon is trying to make Balance more viable. IMO Smogon has always balanced their bans around Balance which is why HOfags and Stallfags argue past each other.
>>59242832every single smogon thread:>Why did they ban x?>Because it killed stall xdddd>actually, they banned it because it made stall too strong.>Wtf since when did smogon ban anything that threatened stall???seriously, every single thread. Why?
>>59243400/vp/ are notoriously bad at competitive so they just spout memes. When someone explains why the ban was needed or at least the logic behind it they act surprised because they didn't want to discuss comp in the first place, they jusy wanted to shitpost.
>>59242832Stall rarely gets banned because a Stall Pokemon can't just get a free ko or outright win game on the spot like offensive Pokemon can. You can eventually break most of them down with Taunt, Toxic, Knock Off, hazards, or hitting really hard.
>>59243400>>59243413This is spot-on and doesn't just apply to comp. /vp/ hardly plays Pokemon at all. All opinions posted here are just parroting various circlejerks formed by people who only continued interest in this franchise comes in the form of the bizarre astro-turfed faction wars that only exist on this board.
Play BSS and the vast majority of the shit smogshitters screech about isn’t even remotely common or brokenIt’s almost as if 6v6 is an inherently dogshit format
>>59243448>play the format that gf balances for, it's way more balanced than the format that you've been playing for 2 decadesuh huh...
>>59242528>Don't like a strategy? Just ban it! That's the Smogon way!
>>59242528Hey Verlisify
>>59243400it's so fucking tiresomei remember the endless retardposting over dracovish saying "omgon ban wallbreaker!!!!!1!" when the reality was that dracovish made stall the only fucking viable strategy because literally no other archetype could actually handle dracovish
>>59242666>>59242781>>59242848>>59243400>>59243413>>59243433wrong, see Gen IV OU
i just want the landori swapped, you get me? Therian is OP, Incarnate is a- ranked slop
>>59243480it's really funny, gen 4 ou is what happens when a meta stops being handled by a large community and becomes the pet project of a tiny number of people. There's like a dozen people total who agree with how it's been handled. It's hilarious.
>>59243547It's mindboggling how they keep defending Tardachi at every point despite serene grace para+iron head being worse than the last 10 bans for gen IV.
>>59243557muh gen identity (P L E A S E DO NOT MENTION MACHAMP'S ONLY ACTUALLY VIABLE GEN IS THIS GEN PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE)
>>59243584I sincerely don't know how Machamp's dynamic punch with a whopping 55 base speed and 30% of confusion damage and paper thin defenses with an awful typing is "too much for the tier" but Jirachi's 100 speed with 60% of confusion damage + 60% of paralysis chance due to serene grace, 100/100/100 bulk and the GOATed psychic/steel typing is A-OK, healthy and a staple.
>more Dugtrio dramaWas it finally banned from ADV OU?
>>59243547I grew up with Gen IV and I hated Gen 4 OU within the first few matches I played around the start of this decadeso much shit banned for no reason but then plenty of gay shit you still gotta deal with otherwise just 'causeone of the worst OU's legitimately, and almost all thanks to policy; it's so sadyou know it's bad when zoomers who were too young for RSE still choose to get into gen3ou over it
>>59243584Machamp is viable in Gen II OU, Gen III OU, and Gen I OU even as well, in that order, for the record.
>>59243629This is a tragedy, folks. How auspicious.
>>59243635eeehhhhhh you're right, but when gen 4 was the meta, common thought was that it was the first time it was really viable. I think it still "counts".
>>59243629Jimothy is like mid 30s. His channel is 2 months younger than X and Y. He is the people RSE getting edgier compared to gen 2 was supposed to keep interested
>>59243673anon, that's the average age of zoomers.
>>59243453Correct, you’ve been playing an inherently dogshit format for two decades
It all started when they freed Latias
>>59243681>format is good and fun>gf adds some stuff that isn't balanced and some stuff that is>remove the unbalanced stuff>NOOOOO YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT STOP PLAYING WHAT YOU WANT TO PLAY YOU HAVE TO GO TO MUH TOURNEY WHERE THEY BAN YOU FOR GIVING A FIST BUMP AND PAY FOR A POKEMON HOME SUBSCRIPTION OR WHATEVERI'll stick with showdown.
>>59243676No it isn't. That's millennials.
>>59243635>Gen II OUYes>Gen III OUIt's usable but there are like 10 better Fighting types so why the fuck would you use Machamp>Gen I OUNo lol
>>59243768>there are like 10 better Fighting typesthat's just flat out wrong>No lolthis is also so needlessly flippant as to suggest you aren't as tapped in as you think
>>59243673>>59243676Jimothy is a zoomer in his mid-20s and did not even play RSE growing up.
>>59243784hariyama, blaziken, breloom, heracross, medicham... Not even disagreeing with you, actually. I think that's the full extent of fighting mons you could even conceivably rank higher than the champ.
>>59243784I was exaggerating, there are 5 better Fighting types: Breloom, Heracross, Medicham, Hariyama, and Blaziken.Also, you are a moron if you think Machamp is viable in Gen I OU.
>>59243808>Hariyamadebateable>you are a moron if you think Machamp is viable in Gen I OUyou're a moron if you think it isn't"viable" doesn't mean "can solo the tier"
>>59243879>you're a moron if you think it isn't"viable" doesn't mean "can solo the tier"What favourable matches does it even have? It's slow as molasses, fighting type moves are ass in gen I, does it even OHKO the rocks like Rhydon/Golem with submission? Arguably a favourable matchup vs a paralysed Tauros?
>>59243879It is absolutely not debatable that Hariyama is better than Machamp in Gen III OU, Hariyama is the best Knock Off user in the game. It is also absolutely not debatable that Machamp is not viable in Gen I OU. You're not the first person to think Machamp could work in Gen I OU because "the three best Pokemon are all weak to Fighting" and then you realize there are no good Fighting moves so Machamp doesn't actually win 1v1 against any of them and Machamp cannot do anything against the Psychic types that every team will have one or two of.
what even makes gen 3 ou balanced according to zoomies? all i see is endless tyranitar and nonstop sand
>>59243957It has a favorable matchup against Caterpie.
>>59243965Can it at least low kick snorlax? Is it even stronger than submission?
>>59243975Machamp Low Kick vs. Snorlax: 170-200 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKOMachamp Low Kick vs. Snorlax through Reflect: 86-102 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
>>59243980>snorlax 2hkos machamp back with body slam+hyper beam Grim why were fighting types so shit back in gen 1? Does machamp even get explosion/selfdestruct or something to try and get a KO with the surprise factor?
>>59243975Low Kick isn't based off weight in Gen 1, it's 50 base power and 90 accuracy. Still preferred over Submission, which is 80 base power with 80 accuracy and recoil damage. What's preferred over both of them is not using a fucking Fighting type in Gen I because Fighting types are dogshit.
>>59243992Why were fighting moves so awful? Even if you had something like a 90 BP 100 Acc fighting move it would be balanced because psychic types bully the whole meta
>>59243980This isn't Gen 2. Just paralyze the giant teddy bear and Machamp wins. Period.
>>59244008How are you gonna paralyse Snorlax with Machamp when Snorlax is immune to body slam paralysis?
>>59244008First of all, Snorlax is immune to Body Slam paralysis in Gen 1. Second, Machamp gives your opponent the freest switch of all time into their Psychic type. Third, why the fuck would you use Machamp as your Body Slam paralysis spreader when Tauros and Snorlax have significantly stronger Body Slams and also don't give free switches to Exeggutor, Starmie, Alakazam, Jynx, and even the occasional Slowbro?You have never actually played Gen I OU because the only people who think Machamp is viable in Gen I OU are people who have never played it. Anyone who has played even a single fucking match of Gen I OU knows that Machamp is irredeemable dogshit.
Oh, and it's also obvious that you've never played Gen III OU because you thought it was "debatable" that Hariyama, who is considered one of the best Pokemon that isn't currently in OU and has been floated as potentially being made OU proper, is better than Machamp. You would have made yourself look less stupid if you'd said it was debatable that Blaziken is considered better than Machamp. You'd still be wrong, but you wouldn't have been as wrong.
Whyd the council crucify DPPt Machamp, again? What did it do that Jirachi doesn't do better?
>>59244040I didn't say anything about Body Slam, bruh. Use an electric mon to paralyze it, then Machamp conquers. POG.
>>59243971tar isn't as centralizing as you might believe, it's a strong glue and versatile but it can't exert as much pressure as it should because it needs to commit to its role, and as soon as you know its role you will have 1-2 safe switches. Sometimes more, depending. Gen 3 is all about scouting and bluffing, and dedicating certain evs/move choices/mon sidegrades for specific mons, sometimes even specific sets for specific mons.
>>59244069it hits heatran (the fella who got it banned's second favorite mon)
>>59244074Oh I see, you're trolling.
>>59244082Yeah I was just having a little fun. Too bad Machamp sucks, I quite like it.
>>59243787He just looks young because he doesn't go outside. He's 'old'
>>59243965>Hariyama is the best Knock Off user in the gamethat is also debateableHariyama is severely overrated and has yet to actually accomplish anythingif this wasn't true, it'd have been promoted already>"Machamp is not viable in Gen I OU.">proceeds to give a basic bitch explanation copied wholesale from people who also judge by surface-impression consensus than experienceplay the game and you'll actually be able to theorycraft better
>>59244021your teammates' twave tardostop asking stupid questions
>>59244040>Second, Machamp gives your opponent the freest switch of all time into their Psychic type.you try to talk so much about the metagame but you can't even grasp the concept of early-mid-late game deploymentyeah dude, Sandslash sucks cuz they'll just switch in their healthy Exeggutor early on—oh wait, no it doesn't because you save Sandslash till late game when everything is chipped and paralyzed retard
>>59244065>Oh, and it's also obvious that you've never played Gen III OU because you thought it was "debatable" that Hariyama, who is considered one of the best Pokemon that isn't currently in OUit's hilarious that this 1300 ELO is trying to lecture while also citing public opinion as a source as if he couldn't draw from his own actual lived observations
>hard reset to 2010 right after Salamence was banned>immediately quickban baton pass because we are no longer retarded college kids and can agree that shit is game breaking>DO NOT FREE LATIAS>keep all the rng bullshit since Jirachi/Machamp/Breloom are kept in check by the old meta>ban U-turn momentum slop>Dugtrio no longer gets 3 kills a game and is kept in check again>finally suspect stealth rock. Ban those nigger rocks that the game can't handle yet>ban outrage and draco because they were the problem with dragon type the whole time>Salamid drops from ubers to BL and Flygon goes back to UU where it belongs without its 3 broken moves>then, and only then, can we suspect LatiasYou're welcome
>>59243629If there is a complaint about Smogon, it’s not having OHKO clause or Evasion clause, it’s how inconsistent their own rules are or how much they pussy foot bans>You’d think Evasion Clause would encompass things like Bright Power or Sand Veil, but both those things had to be banned way after in Gen 8>They refuse to intentionally change any mechanics, except when it comes to Gens 1 and 2, both having Freeze Clause and Gen 1 having a ton of mechanic changes>Freeze Clause doesn’t even go all the way. It simply stops Freeze from happening a second time like old Sleep Clause. Freeze Clause only existing in those 2 gens because it’s “unfair” as if 1 Frozen Pokemon isn’t already unfair or going from 10% thaw chance to 20% is somehow fair now.>Champions OU as well is a 6v6 format despite Champions not having said format, and 6v6 changing a ton of Pokemon’s viabilities and the mechanics of moves like Roar/Last Respects or abilities like Supreme Overlord>Speaking of, the first few days of Champions OU were genuine anarchy. Like no Moody clause, no Evasion clause, Bright Powder was legal, and so was Mega Gengar and other previously Uber Megas that weren’t severally nerfed>Of course there is also still Jirachi, which as a whole is just absurd, even in modern gens. Having a move that flinches you 60% of the time without the restrictions of Fake Out and Upper Hand would absolutely be seen as uncompetitive today if Jirachi wasn’t a Legacy Pokemon. Serene Grace Iron Head has the same chance to Flinch as +2 Evasion, and Flinching is worse than missing since you can still heal or use accuracy check bypassing>And paralysis too. Shit is a -1 Accuracy drop that lasts the entire game on top of halving your speed permanently.People say Smogon is too ban happy, when in fact they are the opposite. A ton of things in Pokemon would never be tolerated in any other competitive scene, but Smogon allows it because people running it are too autistic.
>>59244262post elo
>>59242552>this thing that plays literally the opposite of what stall is helps stall!You’re a retard.
>>59243462You know banning a Pokémon or item is functionally identical to the Pokémon or item not even being in the game right
>>59245276Retarded decision happy is what they are. Still haven't heard a single non retarded argument for banning sleep
>>59242528Banning swagger in gen 5 was the first sign of retardation, smogon was reasonable prior
>>59245597It’s uncompetitive, like OHKO moves and Evasion.
>>59245631This. They need to ban any move that can miss too.
>>59243629What's wrong with gen 4 OU? Only thing I can sort of understand is heatran
>>59245578Dugtrio would trap wallbreakers to make Stall unkillable.Is Alolan Ninetales not an HO Pokemon because it runs mostly support moves?
>>59245634Moves missing because of their own inaccuracies is on the user for using that move.Sleep forces your opponent to gamble just to use a move other than Snore or Sleep Talk (which itself is a gamble)
>>59245636they keep banning things nobody had a problem with for decades (like machamp) and refuse to ban jirachi despite it being a bigger offender of the reason machamp was banned at all (for causing hax)Machamp: Dynamicpunch causes confusion which has a 50% chance to cause your mon to hit itself. Cured via switchout. Like 55 speed.Jirachi: Serene Grace Bodyslam para chance is 60%, 25% full para, stays on switch out, but also Iron Head gets a 60% chance to flinch at 100 speed PLUS the para chance making it far less likely to move even with JUST iron head than dynamic.
>>59245650>Dugtrio would trap wallbreakersAnd then do what, retard?
>>59245658>Moves missing because of their own inaccuracies is on the user for using that moveMoves not missing because of RNG isn’t. It’s uncompetitive, so smogshit better ban them.
>>59245578Dugtrio was in literally every stall team.Play more, retard.
>>59245689>this thing that does the exact opposite of stall is on every stall team
>>59245658>Moves missing because of their own inaccuracies is on the user for using that move.This. Smogon should unban 1HKO moves.
>>59245666kill them
>>59245631>uncompetitiveMeme buzzword that means whatever the person says
>>59245696How?
>>59245690you're not very smart, are you? You have no clue what stall is I bet you believe it's all exclusively ultra fat bulky mons.
>>59244074>>59244263>>59244269>it's good because you can support it with the rest of your teamlmao
>>59245578>>59245666Dumbass nigger. You scout for whatever threatens your defensive core, then u-turn into a trapper to pick the threats off one by one once they're in kill range. After that, it's done it's job - you already won. You can just use it as death fodder for your wincon, if you even have one.You could argue that u-turn is the real problem, but the community refuses to admit that switch moves fundamentally break a turn based game. The best we can do is ban the mons that abuse the free switch-ins the most, which is what we've been doing for the last decade and a half once "volt turn" took off in BW1.
>>59245714>to pick the threats off one by oneAnd how specifically are you picking off the threats, retard?
>>59245690Dumb Fucksee >>59245714And let's take sample teams from the only tier when arena trap isn't banned as an example, gen 3 OU.Notice how Dugtrio is nowhere to be seen in offensive teams but it is in almost all stall teams.
>>59245723chip to get in range -> slow u turn into dugtrio -> banded dugtrio outspeeds and ohko. opponent sends something to deal with duggie, switch out to handle the threat Fat Clef or Fat Rachi handle most things, rinse and repeat.
>>59245732OHKOing? So the exact opposite of what stall’s play style is?
>being able to trap and kill the stall pokemon helps stall actually!!This is almost as retarded of a take as “hail is bad because it hurts your own team”
>>59245773You just don't know what stall gameplay is like dude.
>>59245785>t. sub 1100 ELO shitterYou're mad because you didn't get req lmao
>>59245773What is stall?
>>59245794>>59245801>Stall is a highly defensive, attrition-based playstyle in competitive Pokémon designed to exhaust opponents, not out-damage them. It focuses on using bulky Pokémon to "wall" threats, utilizing passive damage—such as entry hazards, status conditions (poison/burn), and moves like Toxic or Seismic Toss—to slowly win over long games.
>>59245801When you don’t ohko
>>59245803>look AI said this!!!This is why you're a sub 1100 ELO campaignshitter btw
>>59245813Why is an AI smarter than larping campaignshitters attempting to defend fanficshit?
>>59245803Trapping and ohkoing doesn't exhaust your opponent? AI faggot>>59245813You think shadow ball is a gen 1 move btw
>>59245818>Trapping and ohkoing doesn't exhaust your opponent?Wow anon you’re right every team in existence is a stall team
Damage rolls are uncompetitive. Why hasn’t smogshit banned every move except Dragon Rage, Sonic Boom, Seismic Toss, Super Fang, and Endeavor yet?
>>59245822I'm not the one posting definitions. Just using what you said.
>>59245818>You think shadow ball is a gen 1 move btwI don't. What the fuck are you talking about retardbro?
>>59245814It isn't. It just provides a shallow interpretation (what a sub 1100 ELO shitter would believe) and runs with it, a reductio ad absurdum, truly AI fags brand themselves and signal their Funning Kruger whenever they talk.
>>59245841>inb4 retardbro focuses only on the typo
>>59245803>he's an esllmao
>>59245848>>59245841ESL retard
>>59245892>no uYour skin is brown lel
>>59245773>OHKOing? So the exact opposite of what stall’s play style is?what do you think chip is you retard? dug needs mons to be weakened (via stalling and chip damage) before being able to be killed, but once they're chipped, it makes it trivial to remove those threats.
>>59246113campaignshitter tip of the day: anything that uses stealth rock is a stall team
>>59246121being disingenuous just makes bystanders stop agreeing with you, you know.
>>59245703Yes. Seems like you don't play competitive Pokemon if you're insinuating that that's invalid.
>>59245726This is disingenuous, as there are multiple offensive teams with Dugtrio on them, notably special offense.You better be intentionally trying to engage in sophistry, because you're genuinely retarded and n00by if you think Gen 3 OU sample teams represent the metagame.
>>59245785yep
>>59245773you got them seething with this oneyou are correct
>>59245926Ummm I think the real ESL one is the one who has difficulty using the language.
>>59246287pretending you didn't understand the point doesn't make you right. and quit samefagging.
>>59246121>>59246126You have yet to post any argument immune to such satirical reductionism, merely repeating ad nauseum the official narrative in such a way that indicates you lack a lived and visceral understanding of the matter."DUGTRIO WAS BANNED CUZ IT HELPED STALL!!" is even more reductionist and uninformative than the dismissal you'd just been handed. Nobody who actually plays is impressed with your mindless retelling of what is essentially a wikipedia-article-tier account.
>>59246292quit copingmore than one person can think you are fucking retarded and don't play
god i just want jirachi nuked from HEO
>>59246297Your entire argument is an ai answer you got off google.
>>59246297There isn't an argument to be had, dugtrio was banned because it made stall too strong. Smogon documents their reasons for banning things, go look at it.>>59246300dumbass samefag lmao
>>59246320>go look at it.Just checked, it says you're wrong
>>59246343I went to double check, it said you were a fag in actuality.
>>59246354I infinity +1 checked it just to make sure. Looks like you're wrong. Sorry.
>>59246372Seems like you checked the wrong infinity+1 cus in all the other instances it says you're a fag actually
>>59242528
>>59246320>posts source>proves himself wrongkek
I can't wait for the faggots at Nintendo to cease and desists Showdown and kill all the autism if Smogon for good
>>59246535c&ding showdown wouldn't do anything, it'd become more popular at the cost of having to remove the sprites (they'd just use the april fools sprites for a week or two before making new custom ones lmao)plus there would be other instances using the older versions still up elsewhere because it's an open source project
>>59245636tldr is that the biggest problem with the tier is Jirachi being a nigger and doing Serene Grace shenanigans, but also being a good and healthy addition to the tier when it's using sets that aren't coin flip hell. Smogon's higher ups refuse to allow the gen 4 playerbase to take any action on the one broken part of Jirachi because of precedents set about banning moves vs pokemon and complex bans.
You have to wonder if the underage retards on /vp/ will ever stop being braindead enough to comprehend that a single pokemon can't be stall. Stall is a team archetype. You have 6 pokemon on your team that together form a stall team. No fucking shit Dugtrio by itself isn't stall. Chansey by itself isn't stall either. Skarmory by itself isn't stall. Plenty of non-stall teams have used Skarmory in all sorts of generations and metas. But if you use Skarmory and Chansey and other bulky, passive walls together on the same team, it's probably a stall team. It really doesn't take a lot of brain power to understand that stall teams abused Dugtrio in order to get rid of problematic stallbreakers. Of course there were also non-stall teams that made us of Arena Trap because it's a broken ability. In gen 7 some Charizard-Y teams started using Z-Dugtrio in order to get rid of Toxapex or Chansey, two of the most reliable Charizard-Y answers. But for the most part Dugtrio has been abused by stall. Rather than using 6 bulky, passive shits they used 5 bulky, passive shits plus Dugtrio. If you can't comprehend this, you're too mentally challenged to comment on anything Smogon does. Retards here have never played before.
>>59247567>it’s an archetype that involves doing the exact opposite of the archetype’s play styleAgreed, every team is stall
>>59247568Did your caretaker write this response for you? I doubt you have the mental capacity for writing yourself if that's your conclusion.
>>59247567The definition of “stall” has warped in response to criticism, 10 years ago a team with a defensive core and offensive Pokemon to remove their threats was considered stall but today it’d be considered balance.
>>59247579>10 years ago a team with a defensive core and offensive Pokemon to remove their threats was considered stallNo it wasn’t
didn't read but you made some good points but toxapex is definitely a stallmon doe
>>59247568>Actually walling people with SkarmBliss and spamming healing moves BUT sometimes trapping and killing a counter is the same thing as hyper offense you campaignshitter retard>Smogon only banned Arena Trap because it counters Stall! Don't ask me about trapping moves BTW
I canit believe the autistic Smogon campaignshitter stallfags banned setup moves, damage boosting choice items, Magma Storm Heatran, Hoopa-Unbound, knock off, Garganacl Salt Cure spam...
Is someone really trying to argue that the Chansey/Skarmory/Toxapex/Clefable/Mega Sableye/Dugtrio teams that dominated the ladder in Gen 7 weren’t stall teams because Dugtrio is fast?
>>59247630>stall teams having to do the exact opposite of stall is somehow helping stall as a play style guys I definitely know what I’m talking about!!
