I grew up with the original, and didn't play the Subsistence version until a couple years ago.
Yeah it's really easy. They clearly didn't rebalance it for the new camera, but it feels better to play.

The Subsistence camera sucks because of the low FOV and Snake being right in front of it.

>>11991386
true chads play the 3ds version

>>11991386
>>11991395
I thought about it when Twin Snakes released and first person aiming was a thing. Better the game get rebalanced for newer features than to deliberately stick to something more archaic for balance. It's like trying to insist that FPS games should've stayed with keyboard aiming instead of mouse support.

>>11991684
>It's like trying to insist that FPS games should've stayed with keyboard aiming
But ID software did have mice. And it always had out of the box mouse support.

>>11991684
The point is the game was designed with a limited camera view. Removing that limit effect the level design, enemy behaviour, overall difficulty, etc.

>>11991693
It's important to be able to self-moderate if that's the case, not for the developers to simply stop improving the control scheme for authenticity. If using the new control scheme makes the game too easy, don't use it.

Another example would be the limit of 12 units selected a time in Starcraft, it's an integral part of the challenge with the game but it would be an unacceptable design in something modern. Starcraft 2 would not have benefited from clinging to hardline design choices/limitations of its predecessor, although the original SC's mechanics were built with it in mind.

>>11991684
>Better the game get rebalanced for newer features
The point is that Konami DIDN'T rebalance the game.

>>11991709
Then don't use it if difficulty is a concern. Having it in isn't a problem in and of itself.

>>11991706
>It's important to be able to self-moderate if that's the case
Personal opinions doesn't change facts. Every single level of MGS3, assets, etc was designed with overhead viewing in mind.

>>11991713
Every game is subjective, and if someone finds the new camera system more enjoyable they should have the option to play with it on. It's like complaining about someone playing the game with the bandanna or stealth camo or whatever, it's not the intended experience but some people find it enjoyable and the game shouldn't exclude them because a few people complained about them.

>>11991483
without circle pad pro

I think overhead camera and cinematic angles are great as long as you can move the camera ahead.
MGS 1/2 played like ass because you just couldn't see shit and had to rely on the radar instead.
It's a shame many genres completely shifted camera styles instead of implementing nudging.

File: doors.webm (3.63 MB, 640x480)

3.63 MB WEBM

>>11991713
This

>>11991684
>mouse support
now that's old fashioned
modern game simply auto target your enemies so you can enjoy the carefully crafted cutscenes

>>11991749
>modern game simply auto target your enemies so you can enjoy the carefully crafted cutscenes
mgs1 isn't a modern game

>>11991752
you're right, it's post modern

>>11991746
Holy, if you think about it the entire MGS1,2,3 takes plane on a tiled 2D plane just like Zelda. With 3D aiming latched on top. Check the camouflage meter, it changes based on which tile you are standing. Which is why it has that old school arcadish DNA.

>>11991762
camo changes because of the texture. you know how footsteps change sound depending on what texture you're walking on? same idea

>>11991765
The logic doesn't see textures, it sees a grid of squares that are atleast the size of the smallest texture used in a map. Those grid-squares contains the ID of the material which is used in simulation, and then for the texture fetching during rendering.

>>11991712
>Having it in isn't a problem in and of itself.
Yes it is. It's a poorly thought out addition that trivializes the game it was haphazardly thrown into.
More options does not always make something better, and a carefully curated and balanced experience will always be preferable over a slew of toggles that may or may not break the game.
>then don't use it
Ignoring the fact that it's the new default, game balance is the responsibility of the developer, not the player. And poor balance cannot be excused with "just don't use it".

>>11991717
>Every game is subjective
That's not true at all. There are absolutely games that are designed around being played a certain way, and MGS3 happens to be one of those. That's what the thread you're posting in is about.
>if someone wants it, they should have it
No. Not every game should be a sandbox without rules and limitations.
Your example doesn't even work because the Bandana and Stealth Camo items (again, your examples not mine) are not equipped by default at the start of the game. They aren't even available until after you've fulfilled specific, difficult challenges in a previous playthrough.

You genuinely can't see shit sometimes with the normal camera, even if you can wiggle it somewhat but the enemies in mgs3 see you from much longer distances than in 1-2, but you can't see them. So if you have not memorized the levels well and even if you have, you will naturally try to crawl everywhere to compensate for the enemies seeing you more far away.

Still, the original ps2 with the original camera is the only version I currently own and it's not unplayable but some screens are _really_ bad for the reasons I described, like really bad.

Also I'm the anon who always encourages people here to play the game without using mk22 at all except for the bosses who require it (or the mosin). But mostly focusing on stealth parts, you can blast the bosses with any gun you wish for all I care.

It becomes a completely different game when you just don't use the mk22 and start on Hard difficulty or something. Then it becomes an advanced challenge when you pick European Extreme where alert = game over, and you have to find different tricks. Some are extremely cheap tho, most notably laying a guard on their stomach and holding them up when they are unable to move or alert help after that no matter what. But I don't use things that are oversights like if you hold a grenade you have no footsteps or something.

And I often at least in my mind make fun of crouch running mechanic in games, well I guess mgs3 originally could have used crouch _walking_ but it should not be much faster than crawling and it should deplete your stamina quickly lol. Just try crouch walking yourself or even fucking crouch running which every stealth game started having around ps3 era.
t. >>11991878

>>11991386
I agree it’s better, but without radar its flaws are very apparent

>>11991780
It's not, no matter how much you want to say it is. You can make an argument that it makes the game easier to play, but that's like saying having analog controls makes games easier to play--it's simply a further iteration of game development. And you shouldn't get upset about that, especially when there's an option to use the old camera to satisfy your desire for it. Don't try and force your way of play on everyone else.

Additional options like these should always be included in the game so long as they don't remove the old ones, there's literally no downside to it. It doesn't detract from "a carefully curated and balanced experience" because that's still right there in its complete form. Tell players to use it if it makes you feel better, but suggesting a new control scheme not be in the game because you don't like it is just an elitist attitude that screams that you think you know better than your peers.

>>11991926
The very focus of a lot of games is on engaging with their challenges. and things like movement and camera are often made to work in tandem with the game's design. Some games would be damaged by "further iteration" being forced into them even as a toggle, because they were made so players could engage with what they are, and the point of playing them is to find interest in that. Adding mid-air turning or parrying into Castlevania wouldn't benefit the game, because the whole point is to engage with its challenges, and if you could parry every enemy that'd be an entirely different game, even if it's just a toggle.
Having "just let people choose whatever" become the norm leads to modern games, where there's a hundred toggles for everything, yet no focused and carefully done underlying design: because if the focus was on that, there'd be no need for a hundred togglles and players would have to play the game the way it is, or play another game if they don't like it. Not every game should have every control scheme, because some games are about understanding their unique control scheme.

>>11991878
Again, you are assuming the devs are retarted which they were not. Everything is working as intended. Skill issue or lack of strategy != Camera is bad.

>>11991746
you can always go into first person to see ahead

>>11991957
Completely missed the point.

>>11991904
Just play the game the way it's supposed to be played and you don't need radar. And besides if you're playing on normal or below you have two whole radars, and playing on hard and above you have the proximity sensor.

I played the game with the original camera for the first time a few months back(I used to speedrun Subsistence, so I have played MGS3 thousands of times).
I could not believe how bad the original camera angles were. Not a single room in the entire game had the camera set up in a way that made any sense or let you see more than 3 feet infront of you. The only way to play the game is to stop every couple of seconds and enter first person mode. The fixed camera works in the first two games because the rooms are smaller and simpler, and you also have the radar to take some of the guesswork out of turning corners etc. This game has much larger, more complex environments and theres often trees covering the screen and with all the foliage guards blend in like crazy, plus you dont get a radar thats actually good so you just get fucked if youre not constantly stopping to go first person. The camera set ups get laughably bad during the Eva escort, youll exit one map walking down, then the next map will have you walking up and it becomes a confusing mess. Don't even get me started on the fights against The Fear and The End, just unplayable.

It's bad enough to the point where I don't understand how the game wasn't critically panned with the original release. Clearly someone at Konami knew they fucked up or they wouldn't have given us a controllable camera at all. They never went back and added one to 1 or 2 either because they don't need it, actually I played a mod of 2 that adds one and the game is actually worse with it lol.

tl;dr the original camera fucking sucks and everyone saying its good in this thread is lying

>>11991926
>It's not
Would you like to give a reason as to why you think that? I respected you enough to explain my stance on the matter, but all you've done is cross your arms and say "nuh uh".
>that's like saying having analog controls makes games easier to play
It would depend on the game, but most games that feature analog controls are balanced AROUND those analog controls. That's what this whole discussion has been about; not just whether features are present, but whether the game was created and balanced with those features in mind.
>implying anyone's upset
>implying anything's being forced on you
I get the impression that you don't understand the topic, and simply took criticism of a game you like as a personal attack.
This is one of the few threads on this board with an actual discussion being presented by the OP. And it's a discussion worth having.

>Additional options should always be included
Absolutely not. You, as the player, should be expected to engage with the game on its terms.
Without that expectation, there IS no game.
>It doesn't detract from "a carefully curated and balanced experience"
It does exactly that, by removing a limitation purposely imposed on the player without accounting for the fact that the player is no longer limited in that way. That is objectively affecting the game's balance, and I would argue (and have) in a negative way.
>you just don't like it
>you're an elitist
Once again, I have to assume you just don't understand what's going on.
Please take a step back and reassess the situation.

>>11992001
>>11992039
Retard. No body is claiming that users should not be able to mod the game to play however they want.

>>11992105
If ChatGPT is supposedly getting better, why are all the bot replies still unrelated nonsense like this?

>>11991983
> Just play the game the way it's supposed to be played and you don't need radar.
That’s the thing anon, the radar is an integral part of the gameplay

>>11991904
>>11991983
You can find thermal goggles and just "cheat" your way out of anything hard or I guess if you have genuinely hard time seeing and stuff (like legit people with impaired vision). They are limited by battery time but it's not hard to pick up some mushrooms.

>>11991934
I can play the original camera ps2 version on european extreme without mk22 so it's not a skill issue, some of the cameras are just really bad. Not all of them obviously. Like I said, some of the angles force you to basically crawl everywhere, which might be intended too because you are a snake, but still.

>>11992001
>Don't even get me started on the fights against The Fear and The End, just unplayable.
To be fair, those fights overtly rely on you using the First Person mode, and it will be awkward at first because you have to stand still in fps but you get used to it.

>Clearly someone at Konami knew they fucked up or they wouldn't have given us a controllable camera at all.
It's appreciated that they immediately got to work when they realized that and decided every re-release needs the 3d cam. They were not stubborn and didn't insist that the fixed cams were the best thing ever.

>>11992001
>Don't even get me started on the fights against The Fear and The End, just unplayable.
i didn't have a problem
what did you struggle with?

>>11992152
Nothing to do with difficulty
The game’s design has always been tied to radar, it’s just more enjoyable

>>11992162
>It's appreciated that they immediately got to work when they realized that and decided every re-release needs the 3d cam. They were not stubborn and didn't insist that the fixed cams were the best thing ever.
>Spend years designing a game, maps, models, etc
>somehow you can change the camera and everything magically gets updated to work with that
Fuck off.

>>11992284
The game is not perfect by any means, there's also managing the menus and stuff which they also did not fix or redesign in the remake (or rather remaster). The best they could do was add some quick menus for camos and codec, but the remake could have been a lot more ambitious if they had some talent redesigning it.

>>11992162
Subsistence works great because it gives you the option for both cameras whenever you want. In some instances the full 3D camera is less than ideal, so you can quickly switch to the top down one and get an much better view and vice versa.

>>11992397
I watched a review of mgs3 delta and it says you can't just switch the camera mode on fly but you have to load to last checkpoint because apparently enemy ai and shit also changes with it. Curious about the choice. I guess everyone involved was given a memo that this must be 99,99% an 1:1 of the original game but why because the original one has been ported to every possible console anyway.

>>11992468
That's definitely a bizarre choice to say the least. As for why its mostly a 1:1 remake besides some changes like Guy Savage and Fox Hunt, I'm guessing they're playing it very safe because they're deathly afraid of pissing off Kojima's fans too much with a radical make over. That said, it'll only be with something like Portable Ops or a theoretical Metal Gear 1 or 2 remake where they will be forced to take more drastic measures.

>>11992502
Yeah I get it. I see some remakes and tv shows also doing the same thing where they are very cautious about changing anything because they know people will complain a lot. Too bad it had to come to this lol because a game like mgs3 could have benefited from having a serious, ambitious remake after 20 years. The graphics even on ps2 were already really good, but on top of that the gameplay could have been different. Not even saying that they should have fused more screen together into bigger area tho that could also have worked but a lot of other stuff. Like more authentic camo, food and heal systems, and some deeper survival for those who want it.

>>11992502
Also kind of bold to price a 1:1 remake close to 100 money units even in regions where people generally make 1000-1500 money units working full time but I mean I guess lol.

File: snak.webm (2.27 MB, 640x480)

2.27 MB WEBM

>>11991746
Sometimes It's useful. Older Metal Gears had the same problem, as well as Silent Hill 4

>>11992541
nevermind the text, I'm retard

>>11992541
Do retards really think that people working on the game were braindead? You are not some god which have the intellect to say, X is a bad thing.

They made MGS1, MGS2, and now MGS3 they know what they were doing. The game was released as intended. You are not a game designer play the game however you want but don't come here claiming X was intended.

File: maxresdefault.jpg (106 KB, 1280x720)

106 KB JPG

>>11992683
>they know what they were doing
with those survival mechanics?

the first stealth section in the entire game has a textbook example of the limitations of the original camera. if you turn right after the first guard there's a long rightward path with an enemy patrol that goes past the exit. because the game's camera is typically centered north(and because the path is covered by soil that tigerstripe happens not to be good with), there really just isn't a good way to go through that area with micromanaging first person view, in short while not a big deal it's the game feeling like crap almost immediately.
I think the og camera occasionally has some good utility but it makes a lot of sense for the subsistence camera to fill in awkward blindspots to the west and east of due north.

>>11991386
>>Crawling in tall grass has a disadvantage of your view being blocked
intrusion camera activates in subsistence camera as well.

>>11991713
No, you're forced into first person view all the time to view your surroundings. You'll miss a bunch of shit if you don't.