If it doesn’t 3D then explain:1. Projectiles can fly over and under each other2. I can walk around a pillar 360
people that think Doom isn't 3D are a classic example of desperately wanting to seem smart. the peak of midwit mountain
>>12016692Can you go over AND under any map element?
>>12016743I can go under fireballs.
>>12016743that's just a tech limitation. engines like Build are fundamentally similar to Doom's and allow this there are workarounds for room over room anyway
>>12016764Yeah and I can over and under bridge in RPG Maker 2000 with a "workaround".
>>12016765Forgot webm (I know this is 2k3 but the same technique works in 2k)
>>12016776holy shit it’s 3d
>>12016692Checkmate atheists.
>>12016692>automap2D.>regular first-person-persepective gameplay3D.
it has height but it's a shitty one.>>12016801like he said. they couldn't layer heights on top of one another. IIRC height is a value on each segment of the map and entities could use it but you couldn't do two moving pillar on top of one another because it would fuck with the partitioning/segmentation of the map
>>12016692This whole worthless retarded discussion comes from two things>doom's binary space partitioning is only done in two dimensions, meaning room over room is not possible>despite his superhuman intelligence, carmack did not envision maps with a lot of verticality ever being made in his engine which allows lots of verticality, so height checks by entities are only made against terrain and a small subset of entities (namely projectiles), making enemies infinitely tall when collision-checked against playerAs a fag who is, against my own better judgement, helplessly addicted to spouting gotcha arguments, I can clearly see how cunts of a similar disposition would latch onto these two and make a whole youtube career out of it.Doom's gameplay occurs in a 3D space and anyone at least moderately observant will come to that conclusion after a few hours of play
>>12016776OP btfo
>>12016776This is fucking cool
>>12017167It's actually a very simple trick. There are two versions of the tileset which are the same visually, but the bridge (which is on the objects layer) is either "walkable" or "render above player", and the stairs have events on them that change the tileset in use.
>>12016752I legitimately don't actually think you can. You can also get hit by melee attacks if you are too close to a wall with an enemy standing on top of it. I'm pretty sure Doom only checks X and Y coordinates for the purposes of hit boxes.Still, it's 3-D enough, and certainly moreso than Wolfenstein 3D. At the end of the day all video games are abstractions, approximations of space and time meant to give the impression of a real 3 dimensional (or 2 dimensional) space. People just like to split hairs because it riles people up.
>>12017453>>I legitimately don't actually think you canIf you're referring to Doom, you certainly can.>GAYNW
>>12017496Try the original Doom, not a newer port
>>12017571>I legitimately don't actually think you can>demonstrates you can>i still don't think you can, now prove you can (afterwards i'll still think you can't btw)once again I'm proven right, "doom is 2d" fags haven't actually touched doom in their lives, but today I've also learned they have a learning disability
>>12017571Alright. Same result though.
>>12017571>Try the original DoomKOriginal Doom on Dosbox. Does running it on Dosbox magically add 3D mechanics to the game?
Boring. Shitfling about whether it was meant to be played with only the keyboard instead.
>>12017718It's meant to be played with either because the original game supports both keyboard only and KB+M
>>12017582>>12017587>>12017605You can't be mad at that anon for wanting proof from the original DOS version. He might be an insufferable faggot, but the truth is GZDoom adds a lot of stuff like jumping and vertical aiming that wasn't there originally. I don't know all the stuff because I haven't used GZDoom in a long time. I'm happy you went through all the trouble to verify this though. What about the SNES version? Or GBA? I think there's a 3DO version too.
>>12017743not that anon but if you wanna test every single doom version we're gonna be here forever, doom runs on everything
>>12017743>He might be an insufferable faggot, but the truth is GZDoom adds a lot of stuff like jumping and vertical aiming that wasn't there originally. >>12017496 was Nugget, for what it's worth. Still has a lot you can change.
>>12017115I think the reason why actors are infinitely tall is because its kind of tricky to implement vertical collision between actors. You can get into situations where actors get stuck inside each other. Not an issue for projectiles since they explode on collision.
>bro it's 3D>bro it's 2Dboth sides are wrong. you can't say DOOM is as "3D" as Halo 2, but you also can't say it's as "2D" as Donkey Kong Country. it's a first person shooter with 3D environments and a lot of 2D entities and some gameplay mechanics, it's that simple. at worst, you might just summarize it as a somewhat primitive 3D game. this the only proper explanation, but it's not easy to compartmentalize so retards will continue fighting over it for eternity.
>>12017768you don't understand, its a good video game only if its threedee
>>12016692it's missing a third vanishing pointthis post will be ignored as always
>>12017743Yeah, I was just being a bit difficult. Looking into it more, it does look like the Doom engine breaks the Z axis into discrete "chunks" and as long as you aren't in the same chunk as a projectile it misses. Still, I appreciate you verifying it, I wasn't totally sure how much ZDoom fudges the original's physics.
>>12017823Elaborate
>>12017743>Or GBA?Same behavior. I don't think there's a single official version without this
You're all forgetting "height" can be a thing in 2D games, ever play Alundra, or any other top-down game with jumping?
>>12017839>he doesn't know about the third vanishing point
>>12017823>>12017890You're aware you won't have a 3rd vanishing point in a "real 3D" game either if you're looking straight ahead right? In Doom you can't look up or down so of course you'll never have onePic related, no 3rd vanishing point here either in Half-Life
>>12017932WTF HALF-LIFE ISN'T REAL 3D?!?!
>>12017115>>12017743Doom is a 3D game with a limited implementation of the vertical axis. This is the only proper way to describe the game. Despite this, in order to get the thing running on dogshit 486 computers, Carmack chose to code the game like an atari game. What I mean by that is that in the game logic there are flats, walls, sectors, actors, and missiles. Flats, Sectors, and Actors have absolutely no 3D qualities. If you cross a linedef, you cross a linedef. If two actors collide horizontally, they collide vertically too, AKA infinitely tall actors. Flats can't be sloped.A 3D game world is created by the two remaining features, variable height walls, and missiles which support vertical collision detection with actors (and some but not all walls due to bugs). These features, however, are only implemented in a limited fashion to keep the game running fast. This is why a fireball shot at you straight ahead moves slower than one firing down at you from an angle, the fireball has 3D collision but it has no concept of physical vertical distance because the game engine has no concept of physical vertical distance. So an imp 2 feet in front of you shooting a fireball, and an imp 2 feet in front of you but 100 feet above you shooting a fireball, will both hit you at the same time, and one flying at a vertical angle will move at an insane speed.Build ALSO doesn't have true room over room, and the Blood/Redneck Rampage/Shadow Warrior/Levellord D3D levels that heavily rely on rooms over rooms are using a stupid number of viewportals and silent teleports to make it work, as are famous GZDoom wads like My House.
It's not 3D in the sense that level data doesn't really exist in 3 dimensions. It's a series of lines and dots and some sectors have different "height values" but it is a 2d plane.The renderer and game logic are 3D. It's why in GZDoom, ZDoom and so on things like room over room and non-euclidian geometry are possible. They introduced a new, improved map format that handles these things betterly than original id software code.
>>12018132How about literally everything demonstrated in this webm?: >>12016801>inb4 it's a source portIt's all stuff that happens in the vanilla version
>>12018136What? Are you retarded? The webm doesn't disagree with my point. It shows exactly what I mean. The game logic and engine and renderer are 3D, map data is not.
>>12018142I'm very drunk and I misread. Sorry
>>12016692You made this thread.
>>12017115>helplessly addicted to spouting gotcha argumentsThis is an extremely off-putting trait and I hope you are doing your best to curb it. It's so fucking obnoxious to interact with someone who just argues for the sake of arguing and doesn't actually believe what they're saying. It's always so obvious too.
>>12016692It's 2.5D chud
>>12016742fpbpAll dimensional perspective in games is mathematical approximation. With all the bells and whistles of modern engines and ubiquity of high fidelity visuals, we forget that there are countless tricks, tweaks and slights of hand to make this possible in realtime. Back then these tricks were just more obvious. A 386/486 could rum a game much faster if it didn't have to account for multiple rooms above one another, slopes and all the complexity of mesh / bsp commissions the way we think of them now.In the end, all games are just collections of data algorithmically iterated on in such a way to create the illusion of space and the illusion of being bound by the constraints of that space in a way the human mind clicks with (acceleration/friction, gravity, colliding with walls/objects, even the concept of life and death as a failure state).That's all it is.
>>12017932>>12017945>In Doom you can't look up or down so of course you'll never have one
You're all fucking morons. It's because of the look axis. The look axis can only go X and Y but not Z. You cannot aim up or down in Doom unless it's modded, a fan port, or re-release. That is why it's not 3D. You flat headed mongoloids.
>>12019974You heard it here, C: The Contra Adventure is not a 3D game.
>>12019974So the boundary of 2d/3d is the handful of lines of code it would take to enable vertical look and aiming?
Doom is a literal projection of a 2D plane onto 3D space. It's 3D and always was. >>12019974This would make Heretic 3D while Doom isn't, which is retarded
>>12017169i keep forgetting that you can swap tilesi would have just made each tile an event and then change their state by turning a switch on/off
>>12019647>In the end, all games are just collections of data algorithmically iterated on in such a way to create the illusion of space and the illusion of being bound by the constraints of that space in a way the human mind clicks withThis is ultimately what the problem is: When someone says "Doom is not 3D" they're not talking about how you personally perceive perspective illusions, they're referring to how the image is percieved by a computer. In other words, Doom looks 3D to players but is technically 2D, this is a nuance to the conversation that doesn't matter to players.Anyways, this block is 3D but only to you and me and not the computer.
>>12016692>Shoot wall.>Imp standing on top of wall dies.
>>120166921. Projectiles are 2d sprites with a height property2. Pillar is not a 3d object, it's an elevation of floorThe point is that it's more like Wolfenstein with smoke an mirrors. There's very little 3d math compared to full 3d engine like Quake. All the DOOM levels were made in a 2d map editor.For example you could draw an image with 8 color palette but using dithering so it would appear that the image is more colorful. However, it is still an 8 color image.
>>12017989you have no power here: people are not interested in the actual factsonly the endless circlejerk and endless debate on bullshitpeople in the know already understand about sectors, bsp and the limitationsbut this place is just monkeys trying to analyze clockwork it's hopeless
>>12017989>So an imp 2 feet in front of you shooting a fireball, and an imp 2 feet in front of you but 100 feet above you shooting a fireball, will both hit you at the same timeI'd like to see this in motion
>>12017115It's not so much that he didn't see maps with verticality being a thing, but it was a compromise to save on computational time with the PCs of the early 90s, which were already not that powerful and didn't have any 3D acceleration or any other means to speed up said calculations. It's just faster to compute collisions on a basis of the xy area and assume the z-height is infinite, which boils down to a 2D axis-aligned bounding box problem, which can be solved with relative ease even on computers from that era. What >>12017767 said is also a possible complication too.
>>12020049>handful of lines of code it would take to enable vertical look and aimingThat's the limited hack version that warps the geometry unrealistically. Doing it with correct perspective requires an engine rewrite, e.g. Quake.
