Where do you draw the line between hard games that are fun and bullshit hard games that stop being fun?
>>12027385When the game isn't fun
Rayman. Specifically Rayman, that's where the line gets crossed.
If you can master the game and redo all the hard parts with less struggle over time then it is a good game.If it is a crapshoot everytime then it's caca.
>>12027390fpbp
>>12027385I feel like a good game will let me feel like I'm constantly improving, getting a little farther each time, etc. Big difficulty spikes are not too fun
>>12027385MODS
>>12027385WHAT-A YOU DO-A TO DA SPAGHETTI!?
Daily reminder that ketchup is the nigger of condiments, and anyone who uses it for anything other than a base in family reunion-tier barbecue sauce should be drawn and quartered. Ketchup is so fucking bad man, I cannot imagine dipping fries in that shit, let alone plunking it on pasta, using it to ruin a good burger, or, worse... putting it on steak. Imagine ruining a delicious, juicy, sea-salted ribeye with proto-fermented tomato jizz mixed with vinegar and shelf spices. FUCK ketchup. Don't even fucking respond to me if you're a ketchupnigger. That shit should not exist man.
>>12027385If it's a mediocre game made by a no name studio, I'm more forgiving, because it feels like they did it by mistake or didn't have a lot of playtesting. In that case I'm willing to power through it. But if it's a major studio or a really well regarded game, it's more annoying because you know they absolutely made the game this frustrating on purpose.
>>12027546It's fine if it's just part of something bigger, but yeah, literally just putting pure ketchup on something is a crime. You're just drowning any flavor under a paste of sugary vinegar
>>12027385I draw the line right where one stops and the other begins. It would be retarded to draw it anywhere else. I draw it with the same delicious spaghetti sauce you use.
I don't draw a line because there is no line. The truth is that the more you get good, the further that line is, there is no "objectively" bullshit difficulty and you'd realize that if you had start to even remotely get good. Secondly, it's only "bullshit" if you lose your temper because you're a sore loser. Once you learn that losing is part of playing old video games and learn to keep calm and carry on the same situations won't be "bullshit".And I know what the modern trendy e-celeb dick sucking Retro Gamer™ is going to say:>actually you're wrong it is OBJECTIVELY bullshit if you can't see the danger and react in time!To this I say two things, first off: get good. Half of the times someone says something like this it turns out the thing is avoidable even on a first play and they just suck playing. Secondly even in the case where it really is true, that still doesn't make it "objectively bullshit", some games were built around the concept of learn by dying and that's just how they were and in most cases you're not going to find reviews at the time claiming it's bullshit. Chances are on the contrary the reviews would praise the game for being difficult. So there is nothing "objective" about it, it's only players and game design standards that changed and got casualized.
>>12027546I'm more of a mayonnaise person myself
>>12027814/thread it isI mean, there are cases where the game is difficult for all the wrong reasons but I'm talking about very rare shit like bugs or too RNG-heavy.
>>12027385It's fun when there are multiple ways how to solve the obstacles and when there is enough time to react to them and when there is a bit randomness involved.Unfun hard is just bullshit out of nowhere thrown at the player without any chance to react to.
Are you gonna post this ketchup bullshit on every fucking board or just the gaming ones?
>>12027546Based.
>>12027945This comparison can be turned around by a more experienced player: "It's not fun if there's a ton of ways to solve everything without meaning to any of them, and everything is so predictable and telegraphed, but when the game throws everything at you and makes you actively learn it, that's fun". Basically >>12027814
>>12027546Show me on the doll where the ketchup touched you
>>12027385One of my favorite retro games is Ninja Gaiden for the NES, but I ALWAYS quit halfway through because it eventually just becomes enemy spam and I no longer find it fun. It's been a while, so I can't remember the exact level it goes to shit, but I always just call it there because I don't care to deal with the level design.
>>12027814>Secondly even in the case where it really is true, that still doesn't make it "objectively bullshit", some games were built around the concept of learn by dying and that's just how they were and in most cases you're not going to find reviews at the time claiming it's bullshit.this is not true at allgradius 3 arcade was a failure because the game was too hardyou have never played an arcade game from the the 80s dont you?
>>12027385>Where do you draw the line between hard games that are fun and bullshit hard games that stop being fun?That's subjective and it's different for every player. Plus it depends on the specific game.For me it's when a game is so hard and unforgiving that beating it (or more specificly one credit clearing it, in arcade games' case) would require me (or anyone else) to spend a ridiculous amount of free time on it, AND the payoff for achieving it sucks. Bonus points if the game is also dull and if forces you to cheese everything.E.g. There's no way in hell I'd bother trying to 1cc The Simpsons arcade game. Fuck that noise.The same applies to some console and PC games. Free time is a very scarce resource, If I'm not having fun with a game and it feels like a chore I will drop it and play something else.
>>12027385Cliffhanger not fun and BS.
>Daily reminder that ketchup is the nigger of condiments, and anyone who uses it for anything other than a base in family reunion-tier barbecue sauce should be drawn and quartered. Ketchup is so fucking bad man, I cannot imagine dipping fries in that shit, let alone plunking it on pasta, using it to ruin a good burger, or, worse... putting it on steak. Imagine ruining a delicious, juicy, sea-salted ribeye with proto-fermented tomato jizz mixed with vinegar and shelf spices. FUCK ketchup. Don't even fucking respond to me if you're a ketchupnigger. That shit should not exist man.
>>12027385If it feels like I was given the optimal tool do do what the game expects of me, it's good, even if it takes a while to learn the ins and outs of that tool.If it feels like the game gave me the wrong tool and I have to jump through hoops to make it work, it's bad, even if I can become very good at it. Just because I can eat soup with a fork doesn't mean it's fine.
>>12027385Descent 1 and Descent 2
>>12027385i dunno, it depends on too many variables.
hard games are fun when i win and bullshit and unfun when i lose
>>12027385It's definitely a core mechanic and control factor. I think the fun factor is tied to functionality over hardness. If you have a game that is just not well designed, is clunky and hard on top of it. Fuck you, fuck you and your whore mother. Just why? Now you can have a buggy, clunky masterpiece also super Mario land on gb and Morrowind as good contrasting examples. Now take super hydlide on saturn and Star wars on gb. Both absolutely horrendously clunky and obtuse on top of being hard and they suck. Games like GnG and super streefighter 2010 are exceptional examples of hard games that have unique control scheme and great design, which is the sweet spot of hardness/fun. I'll also admit to personal preference but it should be a self aware preference of outliers. Mine is Indiana Jones and the temple of doom on nes. I think it's great, but can see why people dont.
>>12027814See you people say this, then when pushed for proof on your so called epic hardcore skills, you never show it
>>12027385Is there any game you can't beat but still think has fair difficulty?
>>12029775
>>12028951NTA but it doesn't change much about what anon said, people have 1cc'd multiple loops of Gradius 3 before.
