Or how 1 leak destroyed the entire SOA narrativeFuck kalinske and Sega of america you killed Sega
>>12069278Bernie won. Sega lord x lost
>>12069287>Let's save Sega SC-3000 home computer
>>12069278Sega of America is the only reason Sega lived at all. 10x more successful than SoJ and purposefully sabotaged due to honor autism
>>12069278SoJ fucked up the British launch of the SMS. Yes, they eventually managed to claw back marketshare, but, without the Christmas '87 fuckup, Britain would've firmly been Segaland, rather than continuing with 8-bit micros, and allowing NES a foothold. They also fucked up the Western version of the SMS, by not adding the YM2413. SoJ fucked up the Mega Drive, by not making it forward-compatible, yet insisting to release an add-on which required direct integration with it. They also fucked up by not adding a second bank of 64 KB VRAM, insisting on SMS back-compatibility circuits in the VDP instead of extra colors/effects, and not using an integrated stereo DAC until the second model. SoJ fucked up the Game Gear, by a) not making it directly compatible with SMS carts; b) insisting on a backlight, which at the time was a crappy power-hungry fluorescent tube. SoJ fucked up the Sega CD by releasing it, despite the aforementioned lack of proper compatibility, requiring an expensive and substandard workaround. They also fucked up by using a shitty audio-player grade drive, with garbage random seek performance, and using an unreliable (and expensive) motorized tray mechanism in the original model, instead of a simpler and more robust (also cheaper) pop-top. SoJ fucked up the Saturn by taking too long to design it, which caused its hardware to be obsolete by the time it launched. They also fucked up by attempting to brute-force performance via adding more of the same, leading to high unit costs.
>>12069314>Sega of America is the only reason Sega lived at allNope>A huge problem came to light at Sega of America. In the American market, it was typically large retailers such as Toys “R” Us and Wal-Mart that stocked game hardware and software. Those kinds of retailers would buy a huge quantity of stock at first. However, if they didn’t sell the stock within a certain period, they’d send it all back. We’d have to buy it all back.>SOA’s posted profits in 1993, for example, were all washed away because it had to take extraordinary losses on returned stock later on. Those extraordinary losses came to $100 million or $200 million at a time. Furthermore, retailers in America held a lot of power, and they required manufacturers to have a certain amount of inventory on hand to replenish stocks when items sold out. For example, retailers required SOA to have at least 500,000 Genesis hardware units on hand to replenish sold stock, or they wouldn’t do business with us.>SOA had an excess of inventory that would all be sold at once, bringing in a huge amount of revenue. Then, all that inventory would come back from retailers later on and SOA would take a huge loss. With the Genesis, all of those losses started to appear in 1994, 1995, and 1996. If you added up all the losses, the number would be astronomical.>When we looked at the numbers carefully, even though SOA had a reputation for earning so much money, it turned out they weren’t earning much at all.
https://mdshock.com/2022/05/09/a-second-atari-shock-the-decline-of-the-16-bit-console-era/ an interessing article about the crack of 1993SOA was stupid to want to continue the Genesis when people were tired of 16 bits gamesThey should have gone full on Saturn and released it in 1994 in the US a full year before the PlayStation
they guy is back shilling his blog
>>12069278The only reason why Americans support SoA so hard is because patriotism, on an objective level SoA fucked up pretty bad
>>12069278>1997So where are the reports for years 1990 to 1996 when Sega was profitable and America was fueling them money? Oh you don't have it. Just a single year when everyone knew Sega was already in serious decline. And the report is for the year after CEO Tom Kalinske quit Sega of America. This report is useless on its own without reports on the other years. >report doesn't cover arcade cabinet sales.Terrible oversight considering Sega of America also dealt with arcade machines, and arcade cabinet sales were the main source of revenue for Sega.
>>120693281. Source = your ass2. All American retails forced companies to carry extra stock, and forced companies to take back items if they don't sell. This is standard operating procedure for retail in America. Nintendo, Atari, AND Sony had to do the same thing. Yet they never whined about it.
>>12069421>In the fiscal period ending in March 1995, Konami took an extraordinary loss of ÂĄ11.6 billion due to clearing out unsold inventory. During the same period, Capcom took a loss of ÂĄ7.5 billion after writing down the value of its American subsidiary, and in the mid-year period ending in September 1995, Nintendo also took a loss of ÂĄ9.8 billion after doing the same with its American subsidiary. This fiscal year, Sega is taking an extraordinary loss of ÂĄ26 billion due to the downsizing of its American and European subsidiaries and due to the disposal of unsold inventory.Sega loose much more money than it's competetitors They overproduce much more than their competitor because Kalinske is a fraud who does not see how the market is evolvingPeople were tired of 16 bits games but Kalinske wanted to continue so he released the disastrous 32x instead of a worlwide Saturn release in 94Killing Sega in the process
>>12069415>So where are the reports for years 1990 to 1996 when Sega was profitable and America was fueling them money?Read my posts moronshoichiro irimajiri :>>When we looked at the numbers carefully, even though SOA had a reputation for earning so much money, it turned out they weren’t earning much at all.
>>12069469>SOA’s posted profits in 1993
>>12069278Saturn got Tomb Raider 1, but after it failed to get Tomb Raider 2 in 1997 after having done its part to build up the fan base, that fucked the company hard. Throw in Final Fantasy 7 also in the same year.
sega never shouldve entered the console business. they caugh lightning in a bottle with the genesis due to nintendo having no competition. this false success led them to destroy their company. if they wouldve just stuck to their fantastic arcade games, arcades never wouldve died in the first place. sega destroyed the arcade industry chasing consoles
>>12069502Eh no the Saturn was already fucked since day 1 in the westEnd of 1997 ,the Saturn was completely dead
>>12069458Kek this is omitting all the sabotage from the japs involving the saturn in the western market. Japs killed sega by releasing the shiturn without a western focus and leaving the main market in the dark to try to pander to nips.
>>12069332>SOA was stupid to want to continue the Genesis when people were tired of 16 bits gamesIt wasn't until 1996 that a 32/64-bit game broke into the top sellers.
The biggest mistake SOJ ever did was giving SOA too much liberty SOJ should have been on total control and don't let these morons ruin everything
>>12069469>shoichiro irimajiriOh so we're supposed to take the word of someone who:1. He had nothing to do with SoA operations. 2. Has NO business experience in console and video games (his background was in cars and motorcycles). 3. He comes from Japanese hardcore corporate culture of refusing to take responsibility, and places blame on others. 4. Has a track record of failure. He was a failure in Sega of Japan's console division.5. He pushed for the creation of Dreamcast and told Sega Executives that Dreamcast would bring Sega back to its former glory.THIS is the guy you want us to believe?Try again anon.
>>12069556the honorable japanese do not lie. Samurai warrior code doesn not allow it
>>12069542>this is omitting all the sabotage from the japs involving the saturn in the western marketLike what?>Japs killed sega by releasing the shiturn without a western focusWestern focus game like the shitty games (Ghen war,Congo..)SOA help produce?Yeah i think i prefer Sega rally or virtual fighter
>>12069569>Sega rally or virtual fighterarcade ports
>>12069458>This fiscal year, Sega is taking an extraordinary loss of ÂĄ26 billion due to the downsizing of its American and European subsidiaries and due to the disposal of unsold inventory. What this report fails to tell you is that Sega Genesis earned Sega a total of around ÂĄ1.05 Trillion yen (7 billion dollars) over its entire lifespan. So losing ÂĄ26 billion yen ($173.33 million dollars) is not a big deal in the grand scheme. The Sega Genesis paid for itself hundreds of time over by 1997.Not our fault Sega of Japan wasted all that profit on weird projects that never sold.
>>12069546>It’s true that 16-bit consoles sold quite well and we were able to sell off a good portion of our inventory, but the games did not sell at all,” said Sega director Shunichi Nakamura. The best-selling game charts for the past few weeks in North America reveal that almost all of the top titles are for Sony’s PlayStation console. Games for Nintendo’s SNES console, which has sold over 30 million units—far more than the PlayStation—have disappeared from the best-selling charts.16 bits games did not sell at all and that's where the money came fromPeople wanted something new , something that Sony will give them with more immersive experience like resident evil or tomb raiderKalinske didn't see that and dismissed the Saturn in favor of a dying consoleA worldwide release of the Saturn in 1994 with an emphasis on games like Myst would have changed everything for the better
>>12069585>resident evil or tomb raiderThose are 1996 games, Sony shill-kun.
>>12069569>Like what?Like refusing to listen to America when designing the Sega Saturn. Sega Japan were told MULTIPLE times that Western developers and companies do not like double CPUS, and to not do it for the Saturn. SoJ totally disregarded America's requests of keeping the architecture simple and straightforward for developers.Oh yeah there's also the issue of Sega Japan rejecting Sony's offer of partnership, Microsoft's offer to buy them, rejecting Silicon Graphics offer (who then left to work with Nintendo to make the N64), and also rejecting 3DFX (who went to go work with Midway instead).
>>12069583I'm tired of having to repost the same quote every fucking timeshoichiro irimajiri :>When we looked at the numbers carefully, even though SOA had a reputation for earning so much money, it turned out they weren’t earning much at all.Read the interview ,the MD article about the crack of 1993 and the Pandamonium video about Sega FY 1997
>>12069594>the crack of 1993This meme will never take off.
Im not going to say who has the most blame, but SoA was clearly high off their farts and throwing whatever shit sticks believing they had Sony's bank account, like you see your competition putting titles like Crash and SM64 and your response is funding a FMV softcore porn game?
>>12069589Designing a console take years anon You can't completely change the architecture of a console late in the developpent without delaying the release of the console for at least 1-2 yearsGiving Sony a 1-2 years lead market would have been suicidal for SegaThe proposal of Silicon graphics by Kalinske was another stupid ideaThe N64 was notoriously difficult to develop for with huge hardware flaws and disappointing graphics
>>12069542>Japs killed sega by releasing the shiturn without a western focusBut some of the PS1 biggest titles were JRPGs and japanese games like MGS and Gran Turismo
>>12069594>Sega Japan: "Dude just try me bro. We looked at the numbers. It's all baka gaijin Americas fault! No we won't share the numbers. Just trust us!" You mean the same numbers that we don't have access to? The same numbers that they won't publish? You DO realize that Japan has a vested interest in trying to avoid looking bad right?>Pandamonium videoNice channel, but the guy has no freaking clue how retail works in the United States. It's pretty cringe. I also saw that he was getting roasted in the comments by several people who work retail. Then he deleted his original video, and reuploaded it. So all those comments are gone now.
>>12069604Sega Japan was told very early on by Sega America what Western developers wanted in a console. Sega Japan ignored the requests, and just did their own thing with DUAL CPUs. Which was the worst possible choice Sega Japan could have made. Even making the Sega Saturn based on the Model 1 arcade hardware would have been a better decision. At least developers would have more open to it. >The N64 was notoriously difficult to developDevelop? No. The main issue with N64 was the tiny storage space on the N64 cartridge...which annoyed a lot of developers and made them avoid N64.
>>12069606Well we have the Sega FY documents where we can see the tons of unsold stock because Sega of america refused to move on from the GenesisThanks Kalinske for the 32x and the overproduction
>>12069617>Sega Japan was told very early on by Sega America what Western developers wanted in a console. Sega Japan ignored the requests, and just did their own thing with DUAL CPUs>Develop?https://youtu.be/gRslfM-MOOw?si=V24Rgsg5BpgLUgXH
Sega of America never made money. It was all Sega of Japan
>>12069626Are you new here? Have read ANY interview with Sega America staff, read Tom Kalinske's book, read Tom Kalinske interviews, or even read 3rd party books written by gaming historians who interviewed former Sega employees? Many have spoken about how their requests were largely ignored by Sega Japan including requests for the next Gen console after Sega Genesis. I strongly suggest you do some basic research before participating in this conversation. We can't have a debate if you aren't even aware of the facts.
>>12069619Sega was dead by 1997. Every gaming kid in America knew that back then. 1997 was the year of Playstation especially Final Fantasy 7. That old Sega document is pointless. But if you can find a Sega document from the 1994 or 1995 when Sega was still at their peak, then you might have a good argument.
>>12069717>Sega Japan was told very early on by Sega AmericaWhen?1994?1993?Too late
>>12069721Read my messages and the fucking articles before posting please,i'm tired of having to reposthttps://mdshock.com/2022/05/09/a-second-atari-shock-the-decline-of-the-16-bit-console-era/
I don't understand why Sega Of Japan fanboys just can't admit that Japan screwed up. Why is it so hard? Why? The story is simple. Sega of America told Sega of Japan what America wanted for their next console. Sega of Japan ignored all of it, and chose to do their own thing thinking they knew better. It was a bold gamble that ultimately failed.We wouldnt be here debating this if Saturn was a huge success. You all would be praising Sega of Japan for courageous ideas and talking about how Saturn's design was so innovative, and how Nights into Dreams sold hundreds of millions of copies. Unfortunately the reality is that Sega of Japan's gamble failed. They ignored American needs thinking they knew better, and paid the price. That's it. No amount of debates can change that.
>>12069731Nobody cares about your genuine fake news article. History will not be rewritten.
>>12069604>Designing a console take years anon And? Sega still had time to make changes. >You can't completely change the architecture of a console late in the developpent without delaying the release of the console for at least 1-2 years Isn't that exactly what Sega did when they freaked out about PS1 being 3D focused? Then shoved in extra CPUs into the Saturn.
>>12069604You are exaggerating deeply. Development of Saturn began in 1992. Saturn was showcased in 1994. So that's 2 years.
>>12069745Adding a second CPU is not the same as completely changing the hardware like Kalinske wanted2 more years of Genesis when the 16 bits software market was dying since 1993 would have been a major mistakeA 2 years PS1 lead market would have been even worse
>>12069731For the 7th time, post sources that weren't written by Japanese or show us interviews from non-Japanese people. We all know Japan has honor culture and hates admitting they wete wrong. Especially corporate busienss culture in Japan. Those Japanese dudes have been known to commit suicide for being blamed for major business mistakes. That's why they never want to publicly admit fault. They would rather die than take the blame.
>>12069725>When? Mid 1992 according to Tom Kalinske. They didn't listen to his ideas, and he was ignored.
>>12069736>History will not be rewrittenYour right Those numbers will always show to ignorant like yourself the terrible situation of 16 bits market and the dumb decision of kalinske to continue clinging to the Genesis
>>12069765Good he's a fucking retard who was half the reason for the 16 bit crash and completely squandered the genesis lead.
>>12069769That terrible situation... the 3DOs and Jaguars were just flying off the shelves. Nobody ever heard of Donkey Kong Country or Sonic 3.
>>12069760Dude the numbers are here,the fucking fiscal leak his here,the tons of unsold stock that Kalinske ordered are hereKalinske fanboys are the most delusional people i have ever seen ,all the evidence point that this man is a fucking liar
>>12069771>the 16 bit crashIt must suck being from the timeline where this happened.
>>12069772>“The wave that brought us here was huge, but the tide has turned very quickly,” said Sega director Shunichi Nakamura in reference to the state of the 16-bit console market in Europe. At its peak in 1993, Sega’s revenue in Europe was about ¥60 billion, but now it has shrunk to one-third of that, around ¥20 billion.>“It’s true that 16-bit consoles sold quite well and we were able to sell off a good portion of our inventory, but the games did not sell at all,” said Sega director Shunichi Nakamura. The best-selling game charts for the past few weeks in North America reveal that almost all of the top titles are for Sony’s PlayStation console. Games for Nintendo’s SNES console, which has sold over 30 million units—far more than the PlayStation—have disappeared from the best-selling charts.>According to Sega’s Nakamura, “Through large-scale mass production, Sega has been able to reduce the manufacturing costs of its 16-bit console to the point where we aren’t losing money on production. However, we can’t earn a profit because the software—the most essential part—is just not selling.”>As a result of downsizing its operations, Sega has reduced its personnel in Europe from 480 people in 1993 to just 120 people now, and in North America from 900 people in 1993 to just 350 people now.Yep no problem here,the Genesis is thriving we should continue clinging to the Genesis instead of the SaturnGenius Kalinske
>>12069786Sega being woefully mismanaged does not mean there was a mythical "16-bit crash". One article written in 2022 versus the best selling games of that generation being released in 1994 and 1995. Hmmm, which makes more sense here?
>>12069790>The numbers are false anon believe me!!!Whoa Kalinske fanboys are one of a kind+Mario world and Sonic 1 are the best selling games of that generation Sonic 3 sold significatly less than it's 2 predecessor
>>12069797You're the one arguing against numbers. Since in whatever timeline you're from the 32-bit consoles were a wild success in 1995. That's not how it happened in this version of reality however.
>>12069772>he did the mathbased
>>12069798Yes it is>The best-selling game charts for the past few weeks in North America reveal that almost all of the top titles are for Sony’s PlayStation console. Games for Nintendo’s SNES console, which has sold over 30 million units—far more than the PlayStation—have disappeared from the best-selling charts.
>>12069806I too base my entire concept of reality on quotes mined in an article on some irrelevant website.
>>12069806That article is from 1996, include the full text.>On December 26 of last year, the Wall Street Journal reported that “the previous generation of 16-bit consoles still commands the sales battle.” Nintendo and Sega’s 16-bit consoles were reported to have sold more than four times as much as Sony and Sega’s 32-bit consoles.“It’s true that 16-bit consoles sold quite well and we were able to sell off a good portion of our inventory, but the games did not sell at all,” said Sega director Shunichi Nakamura. The best-selling game charts for the past few weeks in North America reveal that almost all of the top titles are for Sony’s PlayStation console. Games for Nintendo’s SNES console, which has sold over 30 million units—far more than the PlayStation—have disappeared from the best-selling charts.
>>12069287Of course he won. People of his ilk wins when everybody else loses
Why are you arguing about whether Sega 16 bit could survive to 1996? That's EXACTLY what Nintendo did. They waited until 1996 to release Nintendo 64, and milked the SNES for 2 more years. So Yeah it is possible because Nintendo did it. This proves Sega didn't have to release the Sega Saturn in 1994. They could have waited until 1996 and properly made corrections to the Saturn to make it appeal to western tastes, and listen to Tom Kalinske.
>>12069863>That's EXACTLY what Nintendo did. They waited until 1996 to release Nintendo 64Yeah and that delay was a huge mistake for Nintendo , they lost the market to SonyAh and Nintendo has the japanese market unlike the Sega Megadrive The crack of 1993 was a western thing,in japan 16 bits games still sold relatively well unlike the west
>>12069875Sony PS1 just had more games that people wanted to play. They won on sheer quantity. Too many game studios supported Sony.
>>12069882Yeah because Sony was already well implanted and got tons of games before the N64 release A N64 released at the same time as the PS1 would have changed everything
>>12069892>A N64 released at the same time as the PS1 would have changed everythingit would've been as shit as the Saturn and still use carts because jewtendo are jews
>>12069892>A N64 released at the same time as the PS1 would have changed everythingNo it wouldn't, it'd still have lots of droughts in releases and studios would've still gone to Sony because they offered more lucrative and easier working terms
>>12069327As an add-on (kek) to my previous post, SoJ fucked up majorly on their finances. They opened a shitton of amusement parks (full on entertainment centers, not just arcade venues), and forced the other branches (chiefly SoE) to do the same, even though the era of cheap real-estate credit had died alongside the Soviet Union. SoJ were still operating like it was the bubble years.
>>12069813post rael citations. not commie wikipedia.and even if true, it means Ninteno won again.
The corporate structure of Sega was rotten from the ground up. The fact that SoA was able to send misleading numbers to SoJ that misrepresented their place in the market shows that the company was doomed to fail eventually. And the problems didn't stop at SoA, there was so much infighting, miscommunication and backstabbing at SoJ that they never stood a chance against Sony.
>>12069892N64 games were more expensive to publish and produce. Nintendo price fixing cartridge manufacturing.
>>12069734>Sega of America told Sega of Japan what America wanted for their next console.And what makes you think they actually knew? The only thing they suggested was an early model of the N64's tech that wouldn't be ready until years later and that no one at Sega's console division was capable of developing for.Lack of killer apps from both SoA and SoJ killed the console, and third parties would jump to Snoy regardless of what Sega could offer. That's all there is to it.
Didn't SoA tentatively reach out to Trip Hawkins for the 3DO tech in 1992?
>>12069875>Yeah and that delay was a huge mistake for Nintendo , they lost the market to Sony And Sega releasing Saturn in 1994 made a difference? Lmao.
I love how all these Sega threads basically boil down to >"waaah. It's not Japan's fault! Stop bullying Sega Japan! People just don't understand how awesome the Saturn is!"Every. Single. Time.
>>12069814Why would the consoles be selling well but not games? Who was buying a console but nothing to play on it
>>12070648Cheap rentals and second hand games.
>>12069421> Source = your assThe source is actual interviews from Sega of Japan executives at the time, as well as leaked financial documents.>All American retails forced companies to carry extra stock, and forced companies to take back items if they don't sell. This is standard operating procedure for retail in America. Nintendo, Atari, AND Sony had to do the same thing. Yet they never whined about itThen why wasn't Nintendo impacted by this? We never saw a massive dump of liquidated Gameboy and SNES consoles in 1997/1998 like we saw with Game Gear and Genesis consoles and games. What's far more likely is Kalinske made that deal with retailers to get Sega's consoles on store shelves, then never went back and renegotiated after they were selling. Nintendo and Sony probably had different arrangements that didn't have this devastating of an impact.>>12069606>You mean the same numbers that we don't have access to? The same numbers that they won't publish? We do have the numbers, they're in the FY97 report. We also have access to Sega's Fiscal Year reports for each year and can see their overall revenue across their different departments.
>>12069589>Like refusing to listen to AmericaThey did listen to them. Their input was idiotic. Sega of America wanted at 68020 based console, that was a simple upgrade of the Genesis. That would have been horribly underpowered.>Sega Japan were told MULTIPLE times that Western developers and companies do not like double CPUSThis would have been far too late in the design process. The 2nd SH-2 was the last minute change to the Saturn, it came about to boost the 3D Math capabilities. That change was made around Sepetember of 1993. By that point it would be far to late to completely redesign the system. Secondly this is utter BS because when Sega of America designed the 32X in January of 1994, they COPIED the Dual SH-2 design from the Saturn because they LIKED that aspect of it's design.>disregarded requests of keeping the architecture simpleSaturn isn't that complicated to develop for. The N64 is also stupidly complicated and that didn't stop people from supporting it. Hell Saturn's architecture didn't stop Japanese devs from supporting it. By comparison the PS2 makes both the Saturn and N64 look like stupidly simple consoles. Yet devs had not problem supporting the PS2.> rejecting Sony's offer of partnershipThis happened because Sony was acting in bad faith. Sega kept pushing for Sony to make a decision and they kept walking the line and refusing to commit to anything. So Sega walked away. >rejecting Silicon Graphics offerBy the time this was proposed it was far too late in the design process. This came about around mid 1993. By this point Saturn's design was near final save for the 2nd SH-2. Secondly the chip shown to Sega and what went into the N64 are two different things. What went in the N64 was the result of working with Nintendo to make multiple changes to get it up to spec. That also resulted in the N64 being significantly delayed to releasing in mid to late 1996. That was far too late for Sega as they wanted to release at the end of 1994.
>>12069617>Even making the Sega Saturn based on the Model 1 arcade hardware would have been a better decision.The Model 1 is far worse to develop for. It's pretty much just throwing a bunch of DSPs at the wall in hopes that they'll be able to crank through all the 3D math. That would be far worse to develop for.
>>12070680oh right i'm retarded
>>12070681>Sega of Japan executivesShow us interviews from Sega of America, and Sega of Europe executives and I will believe you. Sega of Japan failed to sell 3 consoles in their country. Their words are pointless.I want to hear the words of the winners like Sega of America and Sega of Europe.
>>12070698>The Model 1 is far worse to develop for.Nope. Converting arcade hardware to consoles is standard for Sega. Sega Master system, Sega Mega Drive, and Sega Dreamcast all used downsized Sega arcade hardware to save costs.Sega Saturn is the only anomaly. They should have used Model 1 arcade hardware. It was cheaper and would have saved development time.
>>12070774>Sega of America >bankrupts themselves overproducing games and hardware nobody wants>winners
>>12070775If I remember correctly, Sega's devs didn't want the Saturn to be based on the Model 1 because they were afraid that it would be too difficult to transition to developing 3D games.
>>12070806So Sega of Japan were cowards and didn't want to jump to 3D? Even though the other branches were screaming for it. I have never seen such a dysfunctionally run global company like Sega of Japan. No wonder they could never make a comeback. They make the wrong decision at every opportunity.
>>12070857Every branch of Sega was completely dysfunctional. Everybody was trying to tear each other down to make themselves look good. They lacked the consistent vision that let Sony and Nintendo be successful.
>>12070867I don't even like Sega but I will give some of their branches credit. Sega of America and Sega of Europe sold 40 million Sega Genesis consoles. They made Nintendo sweat for a while.
>>12070916Yes but everybody has to be on board across all branches to succeed long term. They needed to work out their differences if they wanted to win.
It's crazy that we needed a leak proving they were ordering millions of Genesis consoles and giving Genesis equal advertising budget to Saturn well into 1997 to realize these guys were retards.The fact that they were working 16 hours a day on a PC game that no one asked them to make and the piece of shit still looked and played like Bubsy 3D should have been enough evidence. If that wasn't enough, STI's output when Yuji Naka wasn't inside the building should have also given it away. Real system movers like The Ooze, Sonic Spinball, and Comix Zone.
>>12070982I unironically think you are being too hard on Bubsy 3D. That version of Sonic X-Treme might have actually been the worst game of all time if they had actually finished it.
>>12069327>SoJ fucked up the Game Gear, by a) not making it directly compatible with SMS cartsThis is insane reaching, SoA buttmonkeySMS carts were too big for Game Gear
>>12069421>All American retails forced companies to carry extra stock, and forced companies to take back items if they don't sell. This is standard operating procedure for retail in America.How is this shit even legal?Death to kikes
>>12069542SoA was obsessed with shitty sports games when the overwhelming majority of gamers were nerds back then.They didn't localize JRPGs which Saturn had plenty of, but they focused on shoveling on sports shit.PlayStation came in and ate their lunch by giving weebs what they wanted.
>>12069556>He pushed for the creation of Dreamcast and told Sega Executives that Dreamcast would bring Sega back to its former glory.Which it almost did.Too bad it couldn't undo all the damage.>While president of Sega he invested $5 million into Nvidia, after the tiny Silicon Valley startup had failed to deliver on its contract to create the graphics chip for the Dreamcast.[6] Jensen Huang has publicly expressed his gratitude to Irimajiri for helping to keep Nvidia alive.[6] Nvidia went public in 1999, and in 2000, after Irimajiri had left, Sega sold its Nvidia stock for $15 million.[6] In 2017, Huang returned the favor by honoring a request from Irimajiri to speak to a small group of business leaders while visiting Japan.[6]Yeah, I will trust the nip over some kike from Mattel
>>12069575Arcade ports that everybody wanted to play at home, you fucking nigger
>>12069589>Oh yeah there's also the issue of Sega Japan rejecting Sony's offer of partnership, Microsoft's offer to buy them>Trying to gaslight with this bullshit when it's well known how Sony tried to fuck over NintendoGo fuck yourself seriously
>>12069606>You DO realize that Japan has a vested interest in trying to avoid looking bad right?And muttmericans don't? LMAO.Just look at the vastly inferior boxarts in the US compared to Japan back then for example.Or the laughable ''American canons'' of games like Sonic, and changed storylines of many games.Muttmericans were a bunch of opportunistic parasites. Always trying to mooch off of Japan.
>>12069721Using that logic, you could argue that Sega was already dead in 1994 when Donkey Kong Country came out
You can tell the guys in these threads who blame it all on SoJ and say the Saturn never had a chance have never played Saturn. There are hundreds of 3D games on the console that run at acceptable framerates, half of them by Western developers and 85% of them are third-party games. Dozens of western studios got 3D working on Saturn including the teams that worked on garbage licensed games like Independence Day. If X-Treme released it might have been the single worst 3D game to release on the hardware after 1995.>>12071118It really might have been.>>12071174They were basically dead as soon as DKC released. Genesis had an edge over SNES for a few years because the higher resolution and processing speed meant that Genesis could have better looking cartoon games, which Sega capitalized on with licensed movie games that played better on Genesis and Sonic. Nintendo finally realized their console's edge over Genesis was the higher number of simultaneous colors, so DKC was made to capitalize on this. DKC instantly sold millions of copies and everyone who thought Genesis could do better graphics than SNES immediately changed their minds. Genesis was doomed after that point, and SoA should have planned to support Saturn from 1995 onward. Genesis limped along in 1995 with sports games, but by 1996 everyone including sports gamers was on PS1 because SoA failed to market Saturn and failed to work with western devs to get Madden and other major franchises onto the console the first year. Sega was EA's preferred platform and the 32X ruined this relationship, EA's CEO was confirmed to have been mocking the 32X at E3 before it even released. EA even wanted to support Saturn into 1998 and 1999, but Sega killed it prematurely, which is why EA refused to make Dreamcast games.
>>12070916>Sega of America and Sega of Europe sold 40 million Sega Genesis consolesLMAOThey sold because of the Jap games to begin with It only failed in Japan because of Nintendo Yakuza at the time illegally controlling the market, like they had done in the 80s even in the US
>>12071191No, it failed because PC-Engine launched earlier, and manage to establish itself. It was basically an exact reverse of what later happened in the US. Also, unless I'm mistaken, the early Japanese Mega Drive library wasn't exactly stellar.
>>12071182>Nintendo finally realized their console's edge over Genesis was the higher number of simultaneous colors, so DKC was made to capitalize on this.Meh, I don't think it's because of the colorsSNES colors are overrated, especially considering most gamers were gonna use RF or Composite anywaysIt was because it had pre-rendered CG graphics which at the time looked crazySega tried to fight back by getting BlueSky Software to make Vectorman but Vectorman is just so generic and unappealing looking of a character compared to DK
>>12071204>Thinking the PC Engine wasn't sabotaged by Nintendo tooOh you sweet summer child
>>12071208Vectorman is specifically bland and metallic looking because they couldn't display more colors on screen. DKC's pre-renders look better than any pre-renders on Genesis because the color gradients literally have more colors. It's also why the game has better theme and stage variety than Vectorman.You can do a lot with clever use of a limited color palette, Sonic 3/Knux and Doom are probably the best examples, but the second you start trying to port pre-renders from machines that do 16-bit color? Forgetabout it. Genesis can literally only display 1536 unique colors. So how do you map 65,000 colors to 1536? The best you can do is approximate them with dithering and hope the CRT fixes it.Of course, Sega had a console that could do 16 MILLION colors for sprites and backgrounds and 32,000 colors for textures and quads, but SoA refused to market it.
>>12071182>EA even wanted to support Saturn into 1998 and 1999, but Sega killed it prematurely, which is why EA refused to make Dreamcast games. EA had issues with Sega almost from the very day Saturn got released. It was a bitch to code, and EA demanded SoA send over programmers to help. Stolar refused (another consequence of him outright hating that console), and EA dropped Saturn like a hot potato. Then there was the Sega Sports thing, which EA considered as muscling in on their turf. And, finally, Sega dropped 3dfx as GPU provider (resulting in a highly contested lawsuit), which was the final straw.
>>12071239???Stolar wasn't COO until 1997 and wasn't President until 1998. He was just the hatchetman for Saturn. It was Kalinske who doomed it by sucking the Genesis' dick so hard that gamers thought the Saturn had erectile dysfunction.And while I'm sure EA whined about the Saturn, it didn't stop them from releasing tons of games for it.
>>12071247 >Stolar wasn't COO until 1997 and wasn't President until 1998.Oops, you're right, the Sega docs mention Kalinske asking the rest of SoA (in emails) why they aren't pushing Saturn harder, after his trip to Japan in early 1996 (so he was still CEO then). >It was Kalinske who doomed it by sucking the Genesis' dick so hard that gamers thought the Saturn had erectile dysfunction.He was right to hate it, though. It was a thoroughly shit design. And SoJ pushing for an early launch date fucked it even more. >And while I'm sure EA whined about the Saturn, it didn't stop them from releasing tons of games for it.They completely dropped it in 1997. They didn't release a single one of their sports games (or any games, for that matter) for it in 1998. Then came the Sega Sports issue, and dropping 3dfx (where EA owned 25% of shares).
>>12071127>SMS carts were too big for Game Gear Quite literally a skill issue. They should've rearranged the handheld internals to use them. The later Nomad used regular Genesis carts.
>>12071131>How is this shit even legal? >Death to kikesThe way it was explained to me was the "toilet paper" example. If there is a surge in demand in toilet paper and customers buy out all the toilet, then there needs to be extra stock for the company to send to stores on short notice. So there is as little disruption as possible. People don't have to wait for weeks while factories make new toilet paper. This idea of extra supply applies to all items. Japan doesn't operate that way. From what I understand, Japan usually makes items in batches and usually only a certain amount. If items sell out, then there's no more. Customers have to wait a while for the company to make more and delivery to the store. There's no rule that forces Japanese companies to have surplus in stock. The rumor is that some Japanese companies like Nintendo take advantage of this by making only limited amounts of consoles, and creating an "artificial shortage" to create hype. Especially when a new console is just released. This makes customers extra determined to buy Nintendo items.
>>12071146>Yeah, I will trust the nip over some kike from MattelYou seriously think Nvidia is a good company? Especially with all the scummy things Nvidia has gone over the years. Nvidia should have rightfully gone bankrupt if CEO Jensen couldn't run his business well. It's not like it would matter. Another graphics card company would have taken their place. For example, if Nvidia went bankrupt, then today we would all be using 3DFX Voodoo cards instead.
>>12071274>They completely dropped it in 1997.Because Stolar infamously said, "Saturn is not our future." at E3 that year.I'll never claim the Saturn design was perfect, but it was considerably better than the 3D-first machine with a 4kb texture cache (N64), an utter trashfire of a machine that only sold well in US/EU because of heavy marketing of its exclusives, something SoA abjectly failed at with Saturn, and which was even more ignored by third parties than the Saturn, having a much smaller library. Whoever you want to blame, releasing new hardware before 2000 was seen as a mistake by most gamers and many developers.People refuse to blame Kalinske because he did so well in 1992 and 1993, but he was one of the key people that created the culture of dragging the Genesis far past it's lifespan.>>12071283Japan uses JIT, Just In Time, delivery and production. America would not switch to this production and stocking model until well into the 2000s. Most of the supermarket and big box chains that were alive in the 90s that are dead now are dead because they failed to transition.
>>12071239>EA had issues with Sega almost from the very day Saturn got released.No. It was even before Saturn was released. EA was one of the companies that told Tom Kalinske that they wanted simple architecture and nothing complicated. No crazy hardware, and lots of dev kit support to make it easy to create games. EA was shown early demo units of Saturn and they were very displeased.
>>12071287>Nvidia should have rightfully gone bankrupt if CEO Jensen couldn't run his business well. Those early years were rocky for pretty much every GPU manufacturer (except for ATI, for some reason, they survived the transition from 2D to 3D with little issues). Tseng Labs, Trident, S3, Rendition, Matrox, 3dfx themselves, the history of GPUs is littered with dead companies. Huang being a good or bad CEO was only a part of whether they survived or not. Luck was a big thing.
>>12071296They still make tons of games for the SaturnEA was probably the biggest western publisher that supported the Saturn
>>12071289>Japan uses JIT, Just In Time, delivery and production. America would not switch to this production and stocking model until well into the 2000s. Most of the supermarket and big box chains that were alive in the 90s that are dead now are dead because they failed to transition.This is not correct. America has their own JIT delivery. They've been using this system since the 1980s.Japan their own JIT delivery but the difference is that Japanese companies uses shady and underhanded tactics. The Executives would sign exclusive contracts called "keiretsu" between the company and the supplier. These are basically "alliance agreements". It's very bushido and typically Japanese. There's a lot of politics and shady stuff that goes behind the signing of a keiretsu. A good example is Sega signing a keiretsu agreement with Hitachi to make chips Sega hardware. Even though Hitachi didn't make the best or cheapest chips (admitted by even Hitachi engineers themselves), they somehow secured the contract. There's a lot of speculation on how this was accomplished despite having a dozen other chip companies (Intel, IBM, Motorola, Fujitsu, etc) competing for Sega's contract. Like Hitachi's CEO having a prior relationship with Sega's CEO and backroom dealings. America JIT is a little different. There is no loyalty. It's simply which supplier can offer the lowest bid. It's cold and pure business. Also America demands that "buffer stock" (extra stock) be made for items. Japan doesn't do buffer stock.
>>12071135>SoA was obsessed with shitty sports games when the overwhelming majority of gamers were nerds back then. Whether you like it not, Sports games are huge sellers. A consoles game sales are like 50% just from sports games. >They didn't localize JRPGs which Saturn had plenty of, but they focused on shoveling on sports shit. >PlayStation came in and ate their lunch by giving weebs what they wanted.I will grant you that there were some JRPGs that deserved to be localized in America. However you do have to admit that Saturn had a ton of JRPG slop games. So much shovelware and you know it.
>>12071289N64 having a ton of cost-cutting-induced design flaws, using an overpriced distribution medium with limited capacity, and being released one year later (meaning lost potential sales), does not make the Saturn look better. If anything, it makes it look worse. >People refuse to blame Kalinske because he did so well in 1992 and 1993, but he was one of the key people that created the culture of dragging the Genesis far past it's lifespan. His only fault was trying to piss against the wind circa late 1993, when SoJ adamantly told him the Saturn was going to be released in its current incarnation. Admittedly, it served as a massive amplifier to all the rest of the shit coming his way, but, as I mentioned previously, he wasn't wrong. Saturn was a fundamentally garbage design. The biggest mistake he made was going for the 32X, instead of using the time to clean up SoA's operations. Ex. winding down SMS/GG support, shutting down the Sega Pico experiment before it would further impact financials (it hadn't yet been released in the West), clearing out the inventory of multiple Genesis versions and accessories, avoiding to launch the Nomad etc. Despite his dismissive atttitude towards releasing CD versions of Genesis games, it was a more financially prudent option than trying to juggle all the plates in SoA's cupboard (and better than continuing FMV slop). I think the correct way forward between late-'93 and mid-'95 (hopefully his efforts at cleaning up SoA would earn him a small respite, instead of the OG infamous May 1995 surprise launch) would have been to release a cheaper version of what we got as the CDX: no portable audio player functionality, no LCD, lower price than the Genesis 2/CD combo. Push for Sega Mouse and Sega CD memory cart support, and release (cheap) CD versions (fully-voiced "talkies") of various PC games (ex. The Incredible Machine, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, Might & Magic: World of Xeen, Lands of Lore etc.).
>>12071381I agree with your post mostly, but the Saturn is not fundamentally a garbage design. It's not as good as the PS1, but nothing is. In a perfect world, the SegaCD, Game Gear, Nomad, and 32X would have never released. The only one of those to have a game sell a million copies was the SegaCD with Sonic CD, which 70% of SegaCD owners worldwide bought. I own and have played large portions of the libraries of all of these consoles (barring the nomad, which has no unique games), and my honest opinion is that Genesis, Saturn, and Dreamcast are the only hardware they should have released after the Master System.There are at least 400 good games on the Saturn, the N64 didn't even manage to release 400 games, and less than 100 of them are any good. The things the Saturn is good at, high resolution modes, sprite scaling, simultaneous on-screen sprites, extremely sharp hi-res textures on polygons are all things it does better than any of its competitors. Games like Last Bronx, Goiken Muyou 1, Virtual Fighter 2, and most of the good arcade ports do things that are fundamentally impossible on PS1 and N64. 3D Performance is acceptable. It takes some time to wrap your head around rendering polygons on VDP1 and effects, floors, and skyboxes on VDP2, but once you do performance is not notably worse than PS1, and N64's impressive rendering capability doesn't make up for it's terrible textures.It's not so much that SoA was bad as it is that they were just one of many retard silos in Sega that were not coordinating properly with the rest of the company. It's not that they're villains that killed Saturn, it's just that they were misguided in their hatred of Saturn and should absolutely not be viewed as saviors of the company who were held back by Japan. And it's wrong that people smear Sonic Team, AM2, and AM3, as they were the only parts of the company doing anything right at the time.
>>12069510>if they wouldve just stuck to their fantastic arcade games, arcades never wouldve died in the first place. sega destroyed the arcade industry chasing consolesSpoken like a complete retard.Arcades were never going to survive the 90s, no matter what. Home systems were rapidly closing the technology gap to arcades, and were offering games you were never going to see in cabinet form.What astounds me is that Sega believed that porting arcade games to consoles could get them out of the hole they had dug themselves into.
Many of these retro stories always paint the Japanese company as utterly evil and stupid (Capcom wanting the SF movie game to be SF3, Mario 64 stealing the idea from Croc's devs for example) and with time many of them have been proven to be bullshit.I think the same happened here to an extent. While S3ga of Japan is retarded, I don't think they were the only ones who crapped the bed specially with how awful most SoA games were for the Genesis.The weird chase for FMV games and the 32x were dogsgit that only the most hardcore Sega fans would defend. I don't remember anyone who genuinely loved most of SoA output.We also have stuff like the Saturn's launch in America and how some of its best titles were never released outside of Japan.
>>12071393>I agree with your post mostly, but the Saturn is not fundamentally a garbage design. Sorry, but it is. The issue isn't that it's worse than the PS1. Only the N64 is better at 3D than it, with gargantuan compromises in a lot of other areas. Saturn's main problem is that it's worse than the PS1 while being costlier/more complex to build. Also, it basically mandates using a dithered output in order to get effects looking right. If you look at comparisons between Saturn games through RGB SCART versus composite, transparencies, lightmaps etc. are checkerboard meshes on SCART. The more accurate output ends up looking worse, which is a big flaw. >It's not so much that SoA was bad as it is that they were just one of many retard silos in Sega that were not coordinating properly with the rest of the company. Unfortunately true. Ironically, this proves that SoJ ultimately held the reins at pretty much every point, since heavily segregated siloing was the standard operating model for Japanese companies until very recently.
>>12071327Yeah, none of those JRPGs would have sold like FFVII, but it would have been nice for hardcore nerds to have more games to play.
>>12071393>In a perfect world, the SegaCD, Game Gear, Nomad, and 32X would have never released. The biggest issue with the Sega CD and the Game Gear is that they are somewhat "canon events". So avoiding them would require massive changes in SoJ's corporate functionality, which would have made that company look nothing like the one we know. Sega CD was a knee-jerk reaction to NEC's CD-ROM^2 popularity, which snowballed into an actual product, because of the typical Japanese refusal to go against the grain. Nobody had the courage to go "ayo hol up, we nearly a full console up in this bitch, we should just release a new standalone", when they decided on the second CPU (plus auxiliary sound/video chips) solution, after it turned out they couldn't just hitch a CD drive to the expansion slot. Game Gear was a similar knee-jerk reaction to Game Boy's success. It should've also been iced (as long as they were unwilling to go the non-backlit route) when they couldn't get at least a hard minimum of 6 hours continuous game time off the six AAs it required (if I'm not mistaken, minimum continuous game time varied from game to game, but the lowest was under 4 hours).
I have a question that I don't think has ever been asked before.If Sega Japan and Sega America disagreed on what type of console should be released after Sega Genesis, why not just...make two different consoles?Hear me out. Sega Japan was already dead set on making Saturn for Japan with a focus on 2D games. Okay. Fine. The system appeals entirely to Japanese tastes. It was relatively successful in Japan too.But since Sega Japan loves silo'ing all their businesses, why not just let Sega America do what they want for the Western market? Sega America originally had all these Western companies lined up to help partner with Sega America. So why not just...let Sega America do it?Imagine a Western Saturn based around SGI graphics. CPU: MIPS R4300i (or maybe Motorola or PowerPC). Single CPU only. No dual CPU. GPU: Custom SGI graphicsRam: 4mb Dram built in (but expandable with memory pack) Media: CD-Rom (2x speed) Partnered with Western companies in America to keep costs down and provide parts. Keep it basic wirh a single controller packed in, and launch it in America for $249.99Surely this would have been a CHEAPER option than wasting money and time on the Sega CD, Sega 32x, Sega Nomad, Sega Game gear, and Sega CDX?Do you think it would have worked for Sega? One console for Asian markets. One console for the West.
>>12071489Oh yeah i would have love a SOA Saturn version with masterpiece only SOA can produce like Ghen war or congo...
>>12071497You realize all the Western developers would make games for it right? SoA Saturn would dominate the WestSoJ Saturn would stay in Asia and make Asian games they love.
>>12071505What would be the first party offering on the SOA Saturn?Ghen war?Congo?Give me Night into dreams,Sega rally or Virtual fighter
>>12071517Nights into dreams is shit and permanently damaged the console's reputation
>>12071517Why does SoA need to make games themselves? Just do what Sony and Microsoft did. Have other studios make games for the system.
>>12071489I'm a Sega extremist, so I would go even further. Waylay Hawkins circa early 1991, when he ran into some difficulties starting The 3DO Company, and either convince him that the VHS model doesn't work with game consoles, or just make him an offer he can't refuse. Work some cost-cutting on the initial blueprints: replace the ARM VY86C060-20FC-2 CPU with a Motorola 68030 (don't need the 68040's on-die FPU since the MADAM GPU already has a custom one, and the original ARM CPU didn't have one either), rejigger the system logic to account for the different architecture, dump Video CD compatibility (the MPEG-2 add-on module and corresponding expansion slot/board circuitry), ditch the piddly internal save memory in favor of a dedicated save cartridge, add a savegame manager to the OS (instead of leaving it to the mercy of game devs), put two controller ports on the console and shitcan the cumbersome daisy-chain idea, keep the shoulder buttons but use the 6 face buttons from the Mega Drive second gen gamepad (resulting in basically the OG Saturn controller, but that's the idea), and launch the whole thing either late 1992 or early 1993 (Hawkins wasted a lot of time trying to get everything in sync between hardware makers and game devs, and ultimately failed to do so, because the entire concept was fundamentally flawed).
>>12069328>>SOA’s posted profits in 1993, for example, were all washed away because it had to take extraordinary losses on returned stock later on.The returned stock happened because the 32x and Saturn made the company lose all goodwill with everybody in the universe except the most hardcore lunatics who still bitch about what could have saved the Saturn. Every retailer in 1995 had enough of Sega because they fucked around with their store setups (these are things set up half a year in advance, you can't just change it on a whim like Sega did), every parent was pissed off at Sega because they kept introducing new hardware and new gimmick continuously and then dropping them at record time (after the 32x and Activator, nobody would have been surprised if the Saturn lasted six months before never being spoken of again), and every developer was pissed at Sega because the Saturn devkits either did not exist or did not work (there are interviews with the devs of Sim City and Virtua Racing - they were allowed to code on Saturn devkits for like half a day every week, by visiting Sega offices) and oh the console also couldn't do proper 3D.None of the narrative changed. SOA made the company popular overnight. Sonic would've been some Gex tier garbage on a console as popular as the 3DO, if not for SOA. It's Japan forcing the Saturn and okaying the 32x that led to the company tanking.
>>12070694>They did listen to them. Their input was idiotic. Sega of America wanted at 68020 based console, that was a simple upgrade of the Genesis. That would have been horribly underpowered.Wasn't that in 1993 when they had to make a Atari Jaguar beater? It wasn't a bad proposition, as long as you have a fast enough T&L unit.
>>12071424>Also, it basically mandates using a dithered output in order to get effects looking right. If you look at comparisons between Saturn games through RGB SCART versus composite, transparencies, lightmaps etc. are checkerboard meshes on SCART. The more accurate output ends up looking worse, which is a big flaw.Composite video is also essential for PS1/N64. The low-res textures and dithering definitely benefit from composite video; the fog in Silent Hill being a famous example.Also SCART was basically exclusive to Europe, so it's unlikely that artists working on games in Japan or America intended for them to be displayed this way.
>>12071519>damaged the console's reputationI never looked at it that way but you're probably right. It was the first game I got with my saturn and after that I never bothered trying another game. Even the "killer app" was still arcade-style timed score attack slop and it wasn't even an arcade port.
>>12071489I don't think this would have prevented third-parties from jumping over the PS1 through deals with Snoy and their ease of/cheaper development/manufacturing and promotion. You also kill western games from being released in Japan and viceversa by essentially having two different consoles to develop for and with entirely different hardware specs. Many of the best selling games in the 5th gen came from Japan.
>>12072082Technically, SCART was also available in Japan (had different pinouts, but was otherwise identical to EuroSCART), though nowhere near as widespread. There's a guy doing composite vs RGB comparisons, and he uses the Japanese SCART cable. It looks pretty bad: the colors are clean, but all transparencies and shadows are fucked: https://youtu.be/hzTemoPUhZc
>>12072026Even if Sega played every hand perfectly, Sony still would have wiped the floor with them. Everything they could do, Sony could do better. Yeah they fucked up, but it was always going to end poorly.
>>12069278A house divided cannot stand. Sega failed to heed Abe Lincoln's warning.
>>12071505>SoA Saturn would dominate the WestHow
>>12069278why is this edited like a ddees image
>>12072261you think Sony Japan and Sony America had the same policy at that time?The big Sony game of 1995 in japan was arc the lad ,a 2D RPG Did Sony america publish that game ?NoAnd it's the same with Nintendo or any other company,they don't have same vision that's normal stuffThe big problem is that SOJ gave too much leeway to those SOA morons.They should have been much more harsher and stricter
>>12072302No idea it's the thumbnail from Pandamonium video not my edit
>>12072307Arc the Lad was never going to be big in the west. I don't think that was a case of infighting or sabotage, like with Sega.
>>12071489>why not just...make two different consoles?Economies of scale.It's far more cost effective to mass produce a single product on a large scale.>>12071505Except that 3rd party devs had already abandoned Sega and Nintendo in droves to make games for the PlayStation.Sega copers keep forgetting just how many bridges Sega burned in the 90s.
>>12071505Western devs in the mid 90's were mostly working on pc. They were two completely different markets back then.
>>12072316There is no infighting between SOA and SOJAnother lie Kalinske >I swear, japanese were jealous of my genius and try to destroy SOA even if that doesn't make sense from a business perspective...believe me!!!
>>12072319>Economies of scale. >It's far more cost effective to mass produce a single product on a large scale. But this only works if you spread out production to multiple factories to meet demand. Sega Japan was notorious for not doing this. They kept production to a single factory in Japan. >>12072493Anon, I like Sega a lot, but even I have to admit that the Sega Japan no idea what they are doing when it comes to marketing...especially to Westerners. They don't understand Western taste.If they did, then the Sega Genesis would have been a success in the 2 years (launched in 1988) before Tom Kalinske was hired to take over. And the Sega Saturn and Sega Dreamcast would have been a success after Tom Kalinske left. And this isn't even counting how Sega Saturn failed in Europe too.
>>12072676Saturn is a failure, it can't live with PlayStation around because very bad with 3d, you can't live without 3d. And Dreamcast has super shit construction. Super shit battery and PSU, super shit vmu, super shit controllers with only one stick, no triggers, only four buttons, shit shape hands hurt, shit cable sticking backwards. Stupid shit Windows and cancer online mmo shit.
>>12072676Yeah, Sega was ignorant. Thinking they needed a direct counter to the Jaguar, thinking that straight arcade ports were good enough, making the Saturn a nightmare to develop for, trusting STI with a full fledged Sonic game.But none of it was malicious. SoA CEOs keep claiming that SoJ was out to get them, that they were willing to sink the entire company just to spite those pig Americans. In truth, it was a company that was out of touch with the mass market, on both the Japan and American side.Of course, everyone is getting their information from American CEOs biographies. They're not going to put themselves down in their narcistic retelling, all of their failures is everyone else's fault, they couldn't possibly be the failure.
>>12071279>The later Nomad used regular Genesis cartsAnd look how well that did.
>>12072815SEGA is arcade company, not consumer one. Arcades are a business company property, player is just a slave to get money from, they don't care about slaves. But in the consumer market this useless slave is a direct business partner in place of a company, so they failed naturally being imprinted with arcade mentality. And even in the arcade business SEGA is notorious cancer evil practitioners worse than others like Konami.
>>12072323Exactly. PS1 didn't have any western games, it would have been even worse for Saturn.
>>12072815>>12072676>>12072812I just want to understand why Sega Japan leadership failed when Nintendo and Sony succeeded? Like what is mentally going through Sega Japan Executives heads as they made their decisions? Because looking back as a fan of Sega, all their decisions are just baffling to me.Was it really that hard to make an affordable, easy to program, game console? Sega literally had mascots just like Nintendo too. With Sonic, Tails Knuckles, Streets of Rage characters, etc.Help me understand how Sega Japan ended up like this? What was going through Japanese leaders heads?
>>12072815SoJ was malicious, but it was the kind of petty retarded maliciousness which was pretty commonplace among Japanese companies from the period. Anybody claiming otherwise just needs to look at the Sega Virtua Processor debacle.
>>12072260 >Even if Sega played every hand perfectly, Sony still would have wiped the floor with them. Everything they could do, Sony could do better. Yeah they fucked up, but it was always going to end poorly.Consumer product sales aren't warfare, not winning doesn't mean losing. You get can get silver and bronze too, lik in the Olympics. They could've been second place (even at a distance), and still be profitable, if they hadn't beaten each other up.
>>12073185That's not malicious, they were heavy handed in managing other countries. Nintendo was just as heavy handed, NoA couldn't jump unless Yamauchi said so. But because they made the better business decisions nobody talks about them.Hell, the Japs were just fine with Kalinske running the show from 90-93, the most successful time for the American division. Once SoA started posting losses in 94, the executives thought they needed to be more involved to keep the momentum that the American division had, but ultimately their meddling made it worse.Once more, it's executives being ignorant. Not malicious. The whole "Sega of Japan sunk the whole company because they couldn't stand Americans being successful!!!!" is the stupidest theory.
>>12073241 >But because they made the better business decisions nobody talks about them. Sort of. Nintendo's biggest and most enduring win was forcing Western execs to march in lockstep when it came to handhelds. For whatever retarded reason, Western execs, on average, tended to despise handhelds, so every handheld not made by Nintendo (and not called PSP) underperformed. They did have their duds. I can't imagine what Howard Lincoln felt when presented with the Virtual Boy shit sandwich, or what Reggie Fils-Aime felt when presented with the equally large shit sandwich that was Wii U. Admittedly, they certainly were better at softening blows to their bottom line. >Once more, it's executives being ignorant. Not malicious. But it is. SoJ execs were relentlessly bullied by Nakayama (remember that high-school-tier bullying was extremely commonplace in Japanese companies at the time) for their low performance between 1991 and 1993 (see picrel for how dire it was in Japan compared to ROW), and, once Western sales started faltering, they went "aha, now's the time to show baka gaijin buta who's really the boss here". Japanese businesspeople were routinely very petty in the 80s and 90s, and ultimately needed a two-decade-long recession to beat that out of them. That's not to say SoA made no bad calls. Concentrating on FMVs for the Sega CD was the big one (on a fundamental level, FMVs were [intended to be] the Western equivalent of [or response to] anime cutscenes but, with a handful exceptions, they failed in implementation), supporting too many platforms was another (Sega Pico was pointless in the West, because learning an alphabet language is ultimately far easier than learning one based on 3 different pictogram types, and SMS/GG should've been wound down circa late 1993), shovelware-ing the Genesis catalog to inflate it was yet another, and going for the 32X and Nomad were more bad calls.
>the Saturn was too hard to develope for!! Bad SOJ they should have listen to Kalinske I need to reminder you that the N64 is even harder to program for?>N64.com: Is the N64 an easy platform to develop on?>Maegawa: It is pretty difficult. Compared to the Saturn I think it's more difficult. And Kalinske wanted to work with the guys that made this hardware !!!
>>12073361Yeah, but Nintendo provided excellent support to developers from the start. So it evened out.Unlike Sega that didn't even provide proper Saturn dev kits at the beginning, and their documentation was very lacking. Sometimes not even properly translated for Western developers. Sega just basically told developers to figure it out and deal with it.
>>12073580>but Nintendo provided excellent support Lmao they didn't even share their microcode to help third party
>collaborate with sony instead of making the saturn>call it the Sega-Sony playstation (they would have fought over the order of the company names if this happened)>basically just the ps1 but with sega games too>profit and make nintendo seethe even more
>>12073992>Sony eventually splits off and makes their own console, because that was always the plan even from the Nintendo Sony CD. Sega still dies.Why does everybody pretend Sony was some poor mistreated company? They were just as cut throat as Nintendo.
>>12069278what about Sega of Europe? were they even a thing?
>>12074062They were on their smoke break.
>>12073602>Lmao they didn't even share their microcode to help third party This. Rare even reverse-engineered the N64 microcode on their own for Conker's Bad Fur Day. This was a big no-no, but they got away because of their solid reputation with Nintendo.
>>12074062Good question. But here in Europa, Sega has too many fights in 1994-1996:sega pcsega arcadessega megacdsega 32xsega master systemsega game gearsega megadriveAlso they were more focused on getting games translanted to 5-6 main european languages
Sega of Japan was always led by old men who still lives in the 80's, sonic as the failure of Sakura Wars reboot was SoJAll of the early 90's fuckups for sega in the US and americas were SoA's fault in part due to sheer incompetence from kalinsky and his team against Nintendo and their marketing and lawyer departmentAlso, EA began focusing more on PC courtesy of Origin and their newly acquired Bullfrog.And they began doing more profits there than on Consoles, Mainly Thanks to Ultima, CnC, Dungeon Keeper and Wing Commander 3 and IV.
