Old 3D platformers like Mario 64, Banjo, Sunshine etc. were on another level compared to the “platformers” we get now.Levels actually felt like places to explore, not just a straight line.Controls had weight and precision, every jump mattered.Secrets actually rewarded you instead of giving you a cosmetic or achievement popup.Even the jank had soul because the devs were pushing hardware limits instead of padding everything with checkpoints and tutorials.Modern ones feel like baby toys in comparison.When did 3D platformers lose their teeth?
>>12069362You know M64 ruined plataformer right
>>12069364Don't care about your ESL opinion. This is a thread for full-fledged human beings.
>>12069362I wouldn't even call those games platformers. They are more like action adventure games. Crash is an actual 3D platformer.
>>12069397lmao no. Crash is a 2D platformer with a camera trick. It’s literally a straight line corridor with forward/back slapped on. The “3D” is just window dressing. No exploration, no real spatial awareness needed, no freedom of movement.Mario 64 and Sunshine make you think in actual 3D space: depth, height, navigation, multiple routes, secrets tucked in corners. Crash could be represented as a 1D line with different colors for hazards and pickups and you’d lose nothing. It’s Baby’s First Platformer compared to the real deal.
>>12069362Radial level design was simply a logical design byproduct of the limitations at the time. Instead of investing time and effort into figuring out how to "stream" the data to simply create a 3D version of traditional linear gameplay (like Crash >>12069397, where they knew they had better coders than designers), they made smaller levels and build the structure/progression around smaller variably-themed goals, focusing on innovation.The linear approach made a comeback when the tech made it simpler to go that way, since it's easier in terms of design and provides a better illusion of "bang for your buck".
>>12069362>Levels actually felt like places to explore, not just a straight line.Modern platformers are just returning to the roots.https://youtu.be/u_XnRtyFj2A?si=um8wNo_7Wr9t0QML
>>12069417>The linear approach made a comeback when the tech made it simpler to go that way, since it's easier in terms of design and provides a better illusion of "bang for your buck".Imagine buying a house that’s the same square footage as a normal one, but instead of rooms it’s just one long, narrow hallway. Technically the same size, but completely useless to live in. That’s Crash.Mario 64 gives you open areas, verticality, secrets, multiple ways to move around. Crash gives you “walk forward until the game decides you’re done.” If your idea of “value” is a stretched-out corridor, congrats, you’ve basically described a mobile endless runner.
>>12069362>the “platformers” we get now.>Modern ones The genre literally doesn't exist anymore outside of that new DK game, dafuq are you talking about?
>>12069443Yeah they do, you’re just bad at recognizing them. Mario Odyssey, A Hat in Time, Yooka-Laylee, even indie stuff like A Hat in Time, Hell, even fucking indie devs are still cranking them out. Just because AAA doesn’t pump them out every year like CoD doesn’t mean the genre “died.”That’s like saying “fighting games don’t exist” because Capcom isn’t making 3 every year. Nah, they’re still there, you just stopped paying attention. Stop trying to derail the thread with semantic bullshit.
>>12069457>Stop trying to derail the threadSays the guy posting about off-topic modern games and asking others to do so in the OP...
>>12069473>hurr you mentioned modern games so it’s off-topicReading comprehension really isn’t your strong suit, huh? The thread is literally about how retro 3D platformers mog the modern slop. Mentioning modern titles as a comparison point doesn’t magically make the whole topic “off-topic,” it’s called context.If your brain can’t handle the concept of comparing old and new without short-circuiting, maybe stick to picture books instead of trying to participate in discussion boards.
>>12069457>Mario Odyssey, A Hat in Time, Yooka-Laylee, even indie stuff like A Hat in TimeThose games are all like 10 years old at this point>Stop trying to derail the threadWhat do you want me to say then? Yeah I prefer the older ones too, those modern games are obviously not as good
>>12069508Yeah obviously those aren’t on the same level as Mario 64, Sunshine, Banjo etc., I was just pointing out the genre never “died.” It’s still around, just not in its prime.Anyway, back on track... what do you guys think is the peak of old 3D platformer design? For me it’s Sunshine’s movement (FLUDD adds so much tech) vs. Mario 64’s levels. Curious if anyone here prefers Banjo’s collectathon style or even something like Ape Escape.
Ok here's one I've always been afraid to ask. Someone lay out for me exactly how Banjo and Ocarina are two completely different genres.
>>12069596You can't even jump in Ocarina, dude.
>>12069362>Modern games sucks (prolonged whining)play big catch tacklebox
>>12069639No, thank you. Looks like tranny shit.
The difference is that things were clear-cut and and simple. Now you play a game and there's a million little tiny graphical things overwhelming you. Has anyone here played a Hat in Time? That game is so full of shit. What about Mario Odyssey? A game where you collect a million owrthless moons, and also there's costumes for Mario or some dumb shit? Like who gives a fuck about that shit? That's the main difference about new and old games. The old games already did that the core thing well and the new games are just aping the old thing and adding worthless shit
>>12069362Big empty amusement parks with no real level design were a joke. Mario and banjo level design is hollow and exists to waste time.
>>12069362Believe it or not it was the customers that wanted a more streamlined experience. Give them a story to drip feed like a terminally ill human while slogging through a mind numbing gameplay and they are happy.
>>12069417>and provides a better illusion of "bang for your buck".It's the opposite. It's much easier to make a smallish sandbox, put pickups in it and kick the player back to the begining every time they get one than it is to design long, linear courses the player won't retread multiple times.
>>12069364seek help
Why is everyone bashing Crash here? There not even trying to be the same game. It’s ok to like Mario 64 and Crash guys, I promise. I really think 3d platformers lost their teeth around the online consoles/fps boom with Halo and so on. “3D platformers” in the Mario 64 to Crash sense were only absolutely huge for 5th gen. They fell out or became throwbacks because there was only so much you could do.I mean you had sandbox collectathons like Mario 64 and those influenced by it like 3 Spyros, 2 Banjo, Rocket Robot, Muppets, Toy Story 2, Space Station Silicon Valley, DK64, Looney Tunes games etc. I suppose things like Jet Force Gemini and Burning Rangers threw shooting into the mix, but were essentially search and collect games.Then you had Crash 1-3, Sonic Adventure, Bomberman Hero, the Chameleon Twists, Super Magnetic Neo (and the less good Goin Quakers and M&Ms game).And then there’s something between linear and open with Croc1&2 and all the Tomb Raiders, Hybrid Heaven,(Shitty Prince of Persia 3d and Ninpen Manmaru)And finally there’s the whole Tony Hawk genre and its copycats. (The scooter one, the Thrasher one, the bmx one)
>>12069932Ofc youre allowed to like Crash, but it doesnt change the fact the SM64 is objectively a better game.The absolute freedom of movement in SM64 - in any direction and in many forms: walking, running, many types of jumps, flying, swimming - allows the player to engage with the levels in many different ways. The movement alone gives SM64 infinite gameplay depth.Meanwhile, in Crash youre railroaded in a single direction and all thats required from you is to use the D-pad and/or the jump button when the time is right to avoid the upcoming obstacle. Its basically Googles T-Rex game in 3D.Even 2D Mario and Sonic games allowed you to do more than moving forward until you reach the finish line.I just looked it up and apparently Crash and SM64 were released around the same time. I could give Crash a pass if it were released much earlier, but after seeing what SM64 brought to the table there was no excuse for Naughty Dog to release the game in that state.Finally, Crash is a bad game, but I understand that nostalgia will make you think otherwise.
>>12069362>felt likeYou were 8.
>>12069982I think you just don’t like the style of Crash, which is fine. Plenty of people would disagree with you. Comparing it to the sandbox collectathon stuff is a bit like comparing apples to oranges. It’s like comparing FPS games to shmups. They both have shoot and strafe buttons but they’re really different genres. So you’re comparing genres not games. In one you’re exploring and looking for stuff or to complete objectives. The other is a linear obstacle course with emphasis on action and timing and pattern recognition.Mario 64 was definitely more novel at the time and the mechanics of the game are more complex. It appeals to people who wanted to explore a 3d world, which was everyone in 1996.Crash appeals to people who wanted more challenge and timing based platforming rather than exploration. Yes it is linear. That’s not always bad. Naughty Dog wasn’t trying to compete with Mario 64’s sandbox style. That was Spyro a few years later. Mario 64 was completely ahead of its time. If you want to compare them to their simplest forms like the T-Rex game I’d say Crash is Pitfall on Atari 2600 in 3d while the collectathons are 1/3 Pitfall, 1/3 Pacman and 1/3 Adventure.So what do you think of the Donkey Kong Country games? Are they bad too? They are pretty much move forward until you reach the finish line. Obstacle courses basicaly. I always thought Crash was kind of the natural evolution of that style of 2d game. I’m surprised N64 never had many copycats to compete with it.
>>12070037Those are good points but when you look at other aspects like polish, music, balance and staying power, it becomes clear who the winner is. Crash is rough in a lot of spots. People don't like segments where you're running toward the screen. And the music in Mario 64 is just legendary.I was a PSX guy but I'm still perfectly willing to admit that Crash is good but doesn't come close to SM64. It even has Spyro in between too, in my opinion. I don't get upset about that because PS1 as a whole was still way, way better than N64
>>12070037>Donkey Kong Country games? Are they bad too?Yes. Linear games are inherently inferior.
>>12069596>90s era nostalgia>Most of those cartoons are from the 2000sI hate my generation so much
>>12069982>Even 2D Mario and Sonic games>SonicThe Classic Sonic games have some of the most complex level design of all time, and the skill ceiling is crazy
>>12069982>I could give Crash a pass if it were released much earlier, but after seeing what SM64 brought to the table there was no excuse for Naughty Dog to release the game in that state.Nigger, are you retarded?Crash 1 came out 3 months after SM64 came out in JapanDo you think they were cranking out full 3D games in 3 months back then or something?Crash 1 took like 2 years to develop iircPS1 didn't even have analog sticks yet back then
>>12070070Contra > Mario 64 so you're wrong
>>12071097Cool but Ghouls n Ghosts > Contra so you should kys
>>12069596What does this picture have to do with games?
>>12069362I'm sorry but I'm glad we went back to Course Clear Mario games after Sunshine. Galaxy 1+2 and 3D Land/World mog your sandbox games.
>>12071267I mog your mom's flabby old pussy with my virile young cock every night
I prefer it when you're not collecting a bunch of trinkets.
>>12070037Ok, Ill take back some things that I said. I replayed Crash a bit and refreshed my memory of the game. It definitely has more than what I gave it credit for. However, I still think previous generation Mario, Sonic and DK games offer basically the same experience with more gameplay depth.
me, I'm an Ape Escape sort of guy
>>1207108390sfags don't want to admit that half the shows they like are actually from the 2000s or mostly peaked in the 2000s.
>>12069982Mario 64 did try to innovate more in the 3D game space, but Crash is just the better game.
>>12070069>Crash is rough in a lot of spots>says the fanboy defending fucking M64
>>12069364I hate bait posts
>>12069528I actually prefer the controls in Mario 64, the skill ceiling is lower but it feels more direct, more precise.Sunshine is great, but theres a reason FLUDD never returned, and i think its because of a lack of immediacy
>>12069596>Someone lay out for me exactly how Banjo and Ocarina are two completely different genres.Words have meaning. You may as well argue that a tetris and COD are the same genre
>>12072376>theres a reason FLUDD never returnedBecause it's clearly a single game gimmick? Same reason galaxy spin and gravity shit never regurned. Or Link in Zelda never became a wolf again.
>>12072462Missing my point. Fludd added to the gameplay dynamic, but it wasnt a gimmick, it was integral to the entire game.Its a shame the idea wasnt further developed in another Mario game
>>12069362A lot of it is because the more realistic your graphics and environments become, the less you're able to have precise control over your character.
>>12069610ah yes my favorite platformer, link's awakening.
>>12069368thank you for saying it
>>12072376>theres a reason FLUDD never returnedbecause Nintendo are retarded and rarely reiterate ideas that had potentialFLUDD had a ton of potential when it comes to crazy platforming shenanigans (especially in our modern era where you can quickly swap to different nozzles) but they fucked it up, and now they won't re explore the idea in the future despite how much potential is there.
>compared to the “platformers” we get nowNot retro.
>>12069362>>12069763>Like who gives a fuck about that shit?being this reductive doesnt really help your case. who gives a fuck about the wide open, empty areas of mario 64? who gives a fuck about harmless enemies that you basically dont have to engage with at all? who gives a fuck about worthless stars? who gives a fuck about some hidden 1-up? who gives a fuck about some invisible teleport spot? who gives a fuck about some temporary hat?you choose to play the game TO PLAY THE GAME. op says "Secrets actually rewarded you". with WHAT exactly? getting moons might not necessarily be "hard" (children's game btw), but at least its an actual award. hidden purple coins too. theres an actual reason to check EVERY corner, nook, and cranny, low and high. it was fun to bing-bing-wahoo around in 64 as a kid. you can do the same shit (with a lot more interactivity) in odyssey. moderns games have EVERYTHING the old ones did, AND MORE. whatever fun you could have in the old ones, you can do the same shit in the newer ones. you fags are kidding yourselves if you think modern ones "fell off" or "lost their teeth". grow up.
>>12072592its absolutely a gimmick. they build games around gimmicks all the time. sonic unleashed's werehog. twilight princess wolf shit. skyward sword waggle shit. cappy jumps, attacks, and enemy possession in mario odyssey. it was genuinely surprising to me that they actually made a galaxy 2 and did more gravity/planet shit, because usually the gimmicks are one-offs. fludd was just another gimmick.
>>12069364FPWPFuck off ESL
>>12073219You dont know what a gimmick is.Fludd influences the level design, it directly impacts on the gameplay, the entire progression structure is based on that mechanic. If you remove Fludd, you remove a fundamental part of the game, breaking the entire concept of Sunshine. Every level must have water, the correct use of nozzles, enemy design, all impacted by Fludd.A example of a gimmick would be riding the blooper in the water racing section. Words have meaning.
>>12069774>no real level designyoure a joke if you honestly think 64 and banjo have "no level design".
>>12069364This is not home depot, Juan.
>>12071707Can you delete this?We are trying to push the narrative that Nintendo fans are the pedos not Sony.Thank you.
Pseudoregalia, Tacklebox, Yellow Taxi Goes Vroom, and Hell Pie are all pretty damn good. Hell Pie has that annoying "gross out" aesthetic but Conker fans will like it.
