Watch, Memorize, Copy it, Win.
>>12212608Who's this cute new wojak babe?
>>12212614I honestly don't know.
>next panel is /vr cuck pleasuring his wife with a strap on labeled as "emulation and autofire"
>>12212647You missed save states.
>>12212657>as a "modern" player disposing "better" tools, you will make good use of them
>>12212608why are shmups so hot and cute?
>>12212608i got my first 1cc by practicing. watching doesnt do anything. it's like watching a rhythm game. the notes disappear. wowie zowiehaving said that now I'm prepping for radiant silvergun and that shit takes some serious study in routing
>>12212608That original post has a point. A lot of these arcade and old home console games were meant to be approached in a completely different manner from what we have today. I wouldn't rec watching someone play the whole thing on youtube, yet it is undeniable that people learned about the game in arcades from watching others play it. An entire social dynamic has been lost to time.
We failed as a society And nah not just because of how video games are now engaged.
>studying routes>save states>autofirejust admit you don't like playing shmups
>>12212608I just play to have fun
>>12212690This is actually ridiculous. Just play the fucking game. How is this becoming so cringe.Also RS on switch has like 4 frames of input lag.
Fuck off, wojak posting retard.
>average shmup player memorizing patterns from youtube videos
>>12212657Like it or not, the best players do this.They master it piece by piece then master the full run. Makes tards who play "the right way" for "fun" seethe, but whadayagonnado
this but for fighting games and going straight to wikis instead of just mashing2win
>>12213102>average emulator enjoyer using save states to scum his way through every game
>>12212812playing on 360
Abandon SHMUPs. Return to granny toes.
>>12213178I was seething too but then I actually did it and realized it's nothing to seethe over. There is no "practice", just Individual Levels or Individual Segments. You are still playing the game. Doing IL's doesnt make you Hitler. A 1CC is successfully completing a set of IL's within a given number of lives. If you can't do level 5 within the allotted lives you have no chance of a 1CC. So just do the IL's bro
>>12213272based akamaimatachad
>>12213347I'm one of the seething tards mentioned, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend the "pro" way is the right or honorable way, it's just people will do anything to win. I'd much rather have a lower PB all my own than some cucked, cobbled-together PB drawn from studying better players and playing only the hard parts over and over. How hollow must it feel to win only after spamming a hard boss fight 30 times? Just dig in and grind it out, it's better for your soul.
>>12213341Me Guwange scores is still the best in the west, bruv, that minge Clast can’t beat ‘em
Wow OP went absolutely nuts huh
>>12212663That's a man
>>12213405You kind of remind me of africans ripping up railroad tracks after all the white people left.
Shmup enjoyers are weird, are chads or chuds. The Chad improover and the Chud that wants to brute force it.
Which ship, anon?
>>12212608Just because you memorised something doing mean you can implement your memorisation.
It's more like a performance, like playing a violin concerto or playing King Lear. You low brows wouldn't get it.
>>12213596proofread next time bud
>>12213405>How hollow must it feel to win only after spamming a hard boss fight 30 times?doesn't feel hollow. a lot of shmups even have level selects that let you do it
>>12213490>The Chad improover and the Chud that wants to brute force it.what's the difference? >>12213521A or C depending on the bullet speed
>>12213661Blud thinks his little cuck genre is equal to playing musical instruments.
Has there ever been a more cynically designed piece of memoslop than Gradius 3?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcqsEdBCmRkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5eT_SSowbMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfm4jOQjVF0
>>12213469
>>12213674Yeah its actually harder
You people are mentally ill, you make up stupid shit to get angry at.What happened to just playing a game and not caring what other people do
>>12213754Loneliness set into their heartAnd the need for validation kicked in
>>12213754>What happened to just playing a game and not caring what other people doPerhaps you are the game being played and simultaneously the person whose doings are not cared about.>>12213750This is true. A slight mistimed note when playing music doesn't destroy the entire piece, but when playing a shmup the equivalent mistake could well be fatal.
>this threadThe delusion and hubris of shmupfags knows no bounds. Holy shit
>>12213685That your youtube channel? My man you have fucking AUTISM.>>12213698WHY DO YOU FUCKING CAREYou are a fucking child "WAAH MOMMY THOSE PEOPLE ARE LE CHEATING AT VIDEOGAMES"Fucking kill yourself you parasite
>>12213773Chill out lil bro, don't you have a Jaimers replay to memorize? Why are you here wasting your time when you could by copying somebody else's route for your next 1CC? Those per boss save states aren't gonna create themselves.
>>12213780I dont know who that is, I dont memorize these games because to me that defeats the point, its like looking up the solution but I dont give a single shit of other people do. People enjoy things differently you retarded autistic motherfucker
>>12213674you are brown
>>12213783But this thread is about an anon, claiming shmups are designed for memorizing and copying what others players are doing.
>>1221260880s and 90s shmup players could also utilize>Pony Canyon VHS releases of runs>level select codes>invincibility codes>trainers>Gamest Magazine strategy articles>Online discussion of routes and strategies, both via BBS and later the internet proper*>talking about the game with other players>working at the arcade and getting infinite credits>playing on a supergun at home with infinite credits>playing an imperfect port that still increases overall skill>autofire, or tricks to achieve pseudo-autofire (ruler, vibrator, coin, pen, etc)And you won't believe me but also....save states. Yes, without an emulator. I won't elaborate.
>>12213801All that just to justify cheating in a video game. Dude, don't you have a job?
>>12213801You missed phone tip lines.
>>12213685Some of the most pathetic stuff Ive ever seen.That guy is simply a jealous loser.
Shmup fans are the monks of /vr/
>>12213906He also pretends that people wanting to be the best for the sake of being the best first and foremost is a new thing when it was always the main appeal of the arcades, thats the whole point of inputting your initials at the end to show off your score.
>>12213801action replay going stupid
>>12213440i miss the granny toe licker
>>12213685>plays melty blood badly>sucks at every single game on his channel>uses lingo like boomerThis guy could really benefit from trying to get more 1ccs.
>>12214032He also plays, Garou, Real Bout, etc. But enough about him, let's see your 1CC's or replays.
>>12214043He should play some fighting games that don't suck. Like jojoban. And maybe then you wouldnt be a gay fag.>let's see your 1CC'sI have cleared:DeathsmilesMushihimesamaDodonpachiDaioujouEspgaludaEspgaluda 2RayforceRaystormBatriderMuchi Muchi PorkBlue RevolverHellsinkerLilac 0ZerorangerDarius GaidenG-DariusCaladriusGunbirdGunbird 2GunbarichIkarugaMars MatrixDanmakaiGraze CounterCho Ren ShaA bunch of touhou games
>>12212608>ywn have a qt goth shmup gf or even feel the touch of a woman without paying for ittheres truly no fucking reason not to blow my brains out besides the fact Im a massive pussy
>>12214083women arent special
>>12214053Show us a mame replay.
>>12214032Its always a melty nigger behind the shitposting.
>>12214146>Racism in 2025Get a life dude.
Funny thing is that OP would not be able to beat a single game by memorizing somebody elses route, which makes this strawman even more cringe.
>>12212608>be me not really a Shmup guy>played some but never ended one>Decide to play at least one and beat it>Started yesterday Gravius for Pc Engine/Turbo Grafix 16 (hope it's a good port) >Nice game, not really difficult just need to learn how to play it
Figuring out how to beat the game on your own without help is part of the fun
>>12214257>Get a life dude.I'm not the one who took up a mod position for the express purpose of trolling and shitting up the website
>>12213685I don't think the presupposition of aimlessly stumbling through games like an idiot is really a "boomer" thing, as everyone who I've ever interacted with in the arcade scene both in actual arcades and fightcade is so profoundly and deeply involved in them it would make the underage neets inhabiting this place head's spin, and looking at older websites such as system11 confirms this isn't limited to my own personal experience. I think you're conflating being a "boomer" with being a retarded casual, and it's rather embarassing to see someone make an over hour long rant about this and then try to subvert and undermine an entire board because of it. Of course its normal to study and learn games, and you don't really care about them if you don't. You can't even begin to imagine how much effort this scene has put into dissecting these games, because you grew up in a culture that has been trained from birth to absent mindedly consume their pig feed. Additionally, someone who only plays one shmup doesn't like shmups, they just like that one game. All of this is just flat out wrong.
>>12212657Is this fun?
>>12214748It's more fun than credit feeding through 20 roms a day or playing easy games you can beat in 30 minutes, yeah.
>>12212608>practicing is cucked>save states are cucked>watching replays is cucked>learning the game is cucked
>>12214774if watching footage was practicing you'd have several football champions per square mile
>>12212614Looks like Angela from normal world (r.i.p)
>>12214784https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1427449-a-former-players-perspective-on-film-study-and-preparing-for-a-nfl-game>Everyone in the NFL watches film in preparation for the game the coming week. Every player starts the week after a game by breaking down the previous game as a unit or in positional meetings.
>>12214792Are fans watching games from their home TVs in the NFL?
>>12214795Are fans watching the NFL playing football after studying football? Will someone who studies football improve faster than someone who doesn't? This argument just sucks. Go back to talking to yourself in ff8 threads or whatever it is you do all day.
>>12214797>Are fans watching the NFL playing football after studying football?Does football have to be memorized because it's full of bullshit like the average shmup?Anyway your favorite game genre is mostly played by trannies so this "argument" you think you're having won't save you.
>>12214808>Does football have to be memorized because it's full of bullshitYes>Anyway your favorite game genre is mostly played by trannies Are they cute?
>>12214282Shmups are essentially positioning yourself through an exact route. If you are actually dodging ala reflexes then you are a bad shmup player.
>>12214821>If you are actually dodging ala reflexes then you are a bad shmup player.I'm still new to shmups but isn't dodging/using your reflexes what is so fun about it?
>>12214821dude, it's to see the entire screen, no one can do tas level input reading so knowing how to dodge matters more than the route, the route is just there to know what to expect when you are dodging, not to dodge in just a single way.aka shmups have rng in shots through player positioning being variable, they are just consistent at it by following direct game rules like that positioning to do their random patterns, thus they can be learned to be easier to dodge even with variations.
>>12214808see: >>12215326>>12215306yes, and it's inherent to the genre.
>>12214821The way you say it makes it sound like good shmup players are just following a paint-by-numbers list of inputs and doing no conscious thought. No, even people who have practiced a "route" thousands of times are still reacting to what they are seeing, the route is there to control the shot patterns they have to deal with. You know that taking out enemies in THIS order results in a pattern you can dodge, so you repeat that. That's all. If you go in just zig-zagging around the screen you'll leave the worst enemies alive for too long who'll fill the screen with layers of bullets that are too hard to react to. But even the most autistic shmup players don't have the kind of consistency that means they are robotically dodging shots they planned for minutes ago, there's WAY too much frame to frame variance to be doing that. It's far more to do with "if I don't take out the ground cannons while scrubbing from right to left, I'll have to hyper/bomb my way out, so I hang back here until I'm sure I've put enough shots their way."
>>12214821There are genres of shmup other than memorizers.
>>12212614It's like 15(?) years of wojak. What the hell happened to 4chan's creativity?
>>12215404the creative zoomers are all on tiktok, 4chan is full of trolls and trannies
I don't know any Russian but I bought a Russian copy of Crime and Punishment.My plan is to read the first page over and over until I comprehend then go to the next page. I was also thinking maybe I should just look at each page as fast as possible, and just call it good after that. Thoughts? and no I'm not going to look up the alphabet or learn anything prior to reading, I am NOT a cuck.
>>12215404got drowned out
>>12215928I can't even tell if this is mocking imitators or people who refuse to imitate
>>12215404>>12215612>>12215946It's up to you to make a brighter future for 4chan, by honoring what made the past so great
I think OP has a point if your game needs and requires all these auto fire and save stating and you have to copy other people's linear gameplay instead of doing your own thing then maybe it's just not a good game?
>>12213521C-LI like slow ships and I like a nice satisfying laser sprite in any shmup
>>12214821>If you are actually dodging ala reflexes then you are a bad shmup player.>ignores the existence of none static patterns and static patterns distorted by random boss movementhave you only played like 2 shmups?
>>12215404Sorry to inform you, but your old memes were cringe, and mostly stolen from japan, then bastardized and tailored to the inferior humor and sensibilities of the western insect.
Why are shmups such a stagnant game genre? There is so much more that could be done with the idea of moving a little ship around a screen shooting at things.
>>12217058You're looking at the game experience from a "just the game" point of view, but most shmup games are designed to have the research be half the "fun".
>>12217575>they are designed to focus on research Proof? It seems to be entirely something the fans concocted and not actually dev intended.
>>12217602lurk more
>>12217254I think he's mostly right, just over emphasized a little and speaking a bit too broadly. The analogy I would use is aiming in FPS. Players with good aim that seem to rarely miss isn't 100% from raw mechanical skill, it's from finding and positioning for the easy shots and optimizing that. So the guy sitting out in the open going for absurd flicks, constantly dying, is going to be far worse than the player with "good" aim setting up and farming the easy shots. It's just minimizing risk and optimizing consistency, dodges are inconsistent if you're human, route around it. I agree that you can't always do that and that is what can make stgs more dynamic and fun.
>>12217575Yeah like one of those modern "wiki games"? Yeah that sucks. Even the argument of. "No no no you're supposed to watch others play at an arcade!" Sucks too because then it's just a worse fighting game.
>>12217257No amount of puffing your chest will save your wojak-defense post from looking like faggotry
>>12215404There's still people who bother making OC, but it gets drowned out by a much higher volume of shit, which makes people less likely to want to make OC. Also mods don't enforce any standards so board culture is dead.
>>12217571>Why are shmups such a stagnant game genre?Because its a solved genre. All you need to do is to watch superplays, memorize the route, and replicate it.>>12217627Except in FPS, you play against other chaotic people. Meanwhile, in shmup. You memorize an entire route, placing yourself currently to manipulate boss movements, essentially manipulating RNG, to become consistent. You play an FPS in real time, even if you pre-aim the other guy also know that you are gonna pre-aim a specific spot, and can work around it.I love how these people say FPS but use the online multiplayer component to prove their argument. Make the same argument for a single player FPS and it falls apart.
>>12213685Save staters absolutely malding over some rando Youtuber because they know he's right
>>12217575>>12217058the thing is that you don't require that for the average clear difficulty clears, the autofire stuff is just there for consistency (as not being able to mash 30hz for 2 hours straight after failing a run) and games balanced around it like the toaplan library after 1987.Aka autofire is just there for accesibility to simply contextualize a good player tapping tech consistently and save states are totally optional, most clears are done just by playing the game unless you go for the hardest of the hardest where the replays are there because it would take a 1000 hours instead of 500.>>12217571they have an history of being very hard and generally the scoring and gameplay aspects are derided by being an arcade of origin genre, so people just creditfeed them and then never play them again.the "they are solved" shit is false by no one being a tas to make the specific inputs which would make everything the same and generally these games still having hidden strats in specific inputs which people haven't obtained manually or simply aren't known (and these are in 20 year old games, in new ones obviously there is an infinite ceiling).aka it's the derision of videogames as interactive movies while deriding the medium origin, thus people don't play them in balanced ports which stop them from creditfeeding while calling them lesser experiences by companies which want to sell new garbage by deriding the medium artistic pioneers.
>>12218149the thing is that in shmups you play against chaotic random ai in a lot of ways too, fps aren't totally played in real time as well by simply people having normally inertia and tells which already make their movement predictable (if not it would be extremely annoying to play)the routing aim shots happen in fps too by most ai getting stuck until you shoot like doom, and doom has still big hitboxes where simply shooting the general area is enough to attack outside the rng patterns which change depending of positioning, shmups simply generate their rng naturally through gameplay mechanics, fps in random numbers. (aka the enemies are a 100% consistent in both, it's simply that shmups use a more fundamental calculation based rng where humans by not being perfect generate new routes (if you are a tas then you would just aimbot to enemies in an fps making the rng moot too) instead of a total random number, even with this the rng in fps can be stopped even before it happens through routing).Aka fps are newer and thus are more popular while they had tech related ventures which in videogames as a product ideas cause them to be picked more by simply showcasing new shit to buy for people who don't really play fps and for people who don't see videogames as art, shmups are older and don't have tech related approach, so even if in game design they are better in some senses to fps while being pioneers of what fps did they aren't as played.
>>12218149>I love how these people say FPS but use the online multiplayer component to prove their argument. Make the same argument for a single player FPS and it falls apart.It's an analogy, not a literal 1 to 1.Another one is time attack racing, I wasn't going to bring it up since it's less likely that it would be familiar. A track is very static lap to lap, you can take a riskier line hard dodge, but it's always higher risk which obviously, but potentially faster. If you fuck up your line position incorrectly though, you're going to be forced to make up for it by taking that higher risk line. Good drivers know the line and when to take the respective one. A driver with no line route would constantly be losing time and wouldn't be nearly as close and probably crash. At this point I'm assuming you're retarded or from South America, I can't distill this analogy any further beyond:>plan good>no plan bad
>>12218907>but it's always higher risk which obviously, but potentially faster.damn, fatal grammar mistake
>>12213783>I dont know who that isHoly shit, an actual newfriend.
>no mention of icycalm yet
>>12219251I feel like it's time to just boot up /shmupg/ Resurrection again.
>>12213801>I won’t elaborate.You can’t.
>>12219269>Touhou>Mushihimesama
>>12219269Even casuals can 1CC Tohou on Normal without watching replays or memorizing the entire stage. Mushihimesama is THE beginner shmup on the market.
>>12215404Sorry to tell you this if you've been living under a rock but you guys got the living shit gentrified out of you. And a big part of it is just the popularity of wojaks spreading beyond this site and getting claimed by teenagers who keep turning it into variations of goofus and gallant type shit forever. That is the future.
>>12213685what a whiny little shitplayer, no wonder you only have a few shitclears
>>12213685based1cctrannies BTFO
>>12219468you're a 1cc tranny, real niggas play for score
>>12217602>Proof? It seems to be entirely something the fans concocted and not actually dev intended.variable weapons?
>>12219470>niggas play for the most boring goal
>>12219401According to japanese super players mushihimesama is among the hardest shmups ever made. The original modes are merely previews of what you have to work towards, which is part of why they are such excellent beginner games. Your journey may very well end right where it began if you run the full gauntlet and are truly insane.Now, imagine, how complex can you realistically make a game that the average Joe Retard can get through it intuitively by bashing his head against the wall until he breaks through? The answer: Not very. There is a very low cap on how interesting a game can be when it doesn't require study, which is a huge problem with games today designed for broad market appeal.
>>12219581>playing the game is boringas expected of flail shitter
>>12219269>using clears as a metric instead of fun had while playingngmi
>>12217571there's only so much you can do to a shmup before it becomes a different genre, one of the weirder ones I can list is hellsinker and that's just because it has pretty out there movesets/playstyles
>>12219647it goes like thisscoring >>> 1cc collecting >>>>>>: flailing like a brainless shitter and pretending it's fun
>>12219654having an actual job, being a billionaire, a family, kids >>>>>>>>>> producing value >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>playing for fun>>>>>>>> scoring > 1cc body count
Gradius V may be the perfect shmup
>I only have fun when I'm flailing like a retarded shittergood thing we don't discriminate against the intelectually disabled here fella
Make another proper shmup thread.The other one wasn't perfect, but this one is fucking radioactive
>>12219702Nah, this one is perfect.
>>12219702>newfren missed the /shmupg/ erabummer
>>12219643Sorry, I experienced the full creative extent of the designers while completing a personal goal of self improvement and overcoming a challenge. Now I am ready to move on to new experiences to enjoy, instead of the joys of autism with constant repeating patterns to try and make number go up.
>>12219591>Now, imagine, how complex can you realistically make a game that the average Joe Retard can get through it intuitively by bashing his head against the wall until he breaks through? The answer: Not very. There is a very low cap on how interesting a game can be when it doesn't require study, which is a huge problem with games today designed for broad market appeal.The fuck are you talking about? There is an ocean of difference between designing a game that eases you into figuring out the mechanics on your own and learning as you play, and just requiring you study shit outside of naturally playing the game in order to figure out the "right way" to play it.
>>12219815>my adhd won't let me play one game for more than 10 hourstypical flail shitter
Anyone who plays for score, in a non social setting (no, online does not count), only pretend its actually fun.
>>12219835Why would I keep playing a game I have completed all of the goals for? Maybe I will come back to it in a few years when its fresh again.
>>12212608>see gunbird 2 in my collection>never played it>play it>it's just fucking brutal>bombs and weapon enhancements randomly move around the screen>levelling up the weapon is next to impossible>if weapon isn't powerful enough by third stage, you are completely fucked>die once and you're completely fuckedgot it to loop once, and loop 2-level 1 is completely fucking insane. oh, die here and you might as well just suicide whatever lives you have left and get the high score because it's completely fucking ridiculous.
>>12219837>my worthless opinionsmany such cases on this intellectually bankrupt board.
>>12219739/shmupg/ fucking sucked and whoever used to post regularly in these threads should stay away from /vr/. And that's my last post ITT, will be waiting for a real one or eventually make it myself.
>>12219904yet all the people who actually played the games were there, now it's all newfag and shitters
>>12212608Why'd you make this thread when there was another shmup thread that was still a week off from autosaging
>>12219975>Question about Gradius 5>another shmup threadNah
>>12220004What's wrong with Gradius VAnd no, "Muh Trashure" is not an argument
>>12213521C for chads
>>12219837correct
>>12219904>no clear shitter detectedThe reason you couldn't stand shmupg was exactly because you don't actually play these games. Time to get on back 2 elf.
>>12221957hey we're not using this thread anymore
>>12221958Did you actually get asshurt enough to try to make a new thread?
>>12219825>There is an ocean of difference between designing a game that eases you into figuring out the mechanics on your own and learning as you playGames such as?>and just requiring you study shit outside of naturally playing the game in order to figure out the "right way" to play it.Games such as?Genuinely asking. I'm trying to understand your degree of separation here.
>>12221960Why do argumentative faggots like you, who plague these boards and disrupt the peace of /vr/, expect people you shitpost-argue with to grovel at your feet and admit defeat? Are you retarded? You have never changed a single person's mind. That's because you are mentally ill.People moved on to another thread. You're still here trying to gnaw at the bones. You're a fucking dog. An animal. A subhuman.Reflect on yourself.
>>12221976You are platinum mad.lol
>>12221980Holy shit I'm impressed by your fast reply. I kneel and grovel! My king!
>>12221980No, what he's trying to do is get this thread nuked because the /shmupg/ boogeyman is here and he's got some feelings about that.
Just did a 1cc of Fantasy Zone on the PS2 collection. Great game, but it feels easier than the Saturn port. Slowdown aside, the enemies don't even try to shoot at you in the first stage on PS2. Did I play the wrong ROM revision on PS2? I played both versions on normal but the enemy behavior doesn't match up at all.
>>12214328Good choice anon. From what I understand it's a different, but still good port that's easier than the arcade original. Have fun!
Why hasn't anybody broken the genre by introducing random elements into shooters? That way there's no single "run" that can be done and the game would become purely reflexive rather than being based on pattern memorization and practicing rote movements like it is now.Would the speedruners reject such a game? After all every run would be unique so there'd be no way for any one of them to beat the other, except maybe by averaging a series of runs. But that would entail getting good at the game, at avoiding and tracking all the things going on on the screen, rather than simply learning the optimal places to move and shoot for each identical run of the same game.I think it'd be a fun experiment. Perhaps there are such games but you just don't hear about 'em.
>>12224631shmups are about discipline, not aboug being diverted by cookie-cutter randomness in otherwise lame games
>>12224631I have roguelike fatigue.
>>12215404Dead Internet theory
>>12212608This is why bmups are better, in my opinion. Shumps require you to simply memorize the fuck out of everything if you wanna 1CC, which feels more like work than play. It's not as mechanical as one might think, especially in bullet hell games, where patterns simply require you to know in which corner you should sit at any given time, and when you should move. It feels very rigid and unrewarding, especially if you're not playing at an arcade where you could at least show off your skill to others. That's why most of the modern competition in shmups boils down to points, not completion.Bmups, on the other hand, require far less memorization and far more mechanical skill, because enemy behavior is randomized, so you have to think on your feet even after you master the mechanics and memorize who spawns when. I find that way more fun.
>>12213685Same as Billy's autism. People shit on Billy for being autistic and a liar, but that runs throughout the entire community. I think when this guy saw that kid BTFO everyone at Tetris, he got mindbroken. Yes, kids have a shitload of time to play stuff, and they're younger and will keep getting better. He should complain less and grind more like any other competitive nigga does.
>>12224732The best route in BMUPs is to memorize stuff. All high-level play is the same because memorization is rewarded. Even segmented runs are about repeating patterns.
>>12224737I didn't say bmups don't require memorization, they do. For example, you have Sailor Moon - if you don't know the route, you will simply time out on the hardest difficulty. But the enemy behavior is not nearly as rigid as it is in shmups, so there's space for player expression and improvisation, especially in combo-heavy games like AvP.Also, an average person can play any bmup (except maybe Final Fight on the arcade) on normal difficulty and enjoy themselves without any autism, while shmups (or specifically bullet hells, but all shmups are bullet hells these days) require you to grind even on normal, unless you're playing something like Imperishable Night (and even then, a newbie will most likely struggle to reach the final boss).I always wanted to enjoy shmups like I enjoy bmups and run'n'guns, but I just don't get it.
All this debate about save states, 1ccs and scoring reminded me of this gemhttps://web.archive.org/web/20160313051747/http://insomnia.ac/commentary/arcade_culture/I don't play shmups but I can confirm I played Metal Slug X at the arcade as a kid without continues to save money
>>12224769Yes, people did that at the arcade in my third world shithole. But I don't really care if people use save states or not. It's a weird complaint, especially now that we want more ways to practice stuff to stay consistent. And, like, we have the real world; we're not kids with infinite time anymore.
>>12224778NTA, but I think the debate here is not about how, but why. Why are we playing these games? The implied answer here is that people who use savestates are not playing to play, they're playing to win. But let's say you won, then what? You just speedran the process of actually playing, you got your clear, and so? Forget the game and move on? Most likely yes, because the grind was fucking exhausting and kinda boring, and now the game itself is not all that fun anymore, you wanna play something else. So once again, what was the point of this whole thing? To post your clear on YouTube to an audience that couldn't give less of a fuck? Did you just spend all that time clearing the game just to tell people that you cleared the game?Shmups, more than any other genre, are about the journey, not the destination. You don't play them to 1CC, you 1CC because you played them to death. Sure, you can look up online how other players get through tricky parts, or bullshit quarter munching parts that have exactly one solution. But if you savestate and study, then you gotta ask yourself if you're missing the forest for the trees.
>>12224801>You don't play them to 1CC, you 1CC because you played them to death. for me the goal totally informs the journey, and vice versa of course. It's not either or.I consider myself "playing" a game when I'm going for some tangible goal, like a 1cc or a score or something beyond flailing and testing out the stages. If I'm just in the flailing credit feeding phase I wouldn't say I'm "playing" the game more like I'm just checking it out to see if it's worth playing which includes a goal.if things like save state or stage training are available obviously those can be helpful, since getting down muscle memory is pretty important and makes actually playing more fun when I'm able to move properly
>>12212608I genuinely don't get this mindset. Its like playing a game with a strategy guide open at all times.Just play the fucking game and figure it out yourself. "Solving" a shmump yourself is a good deal of the fun, as they are puzzle games in a lot of ways, needing to figure out how to actually survive said patterns. OP's image would also be the kind of person that wouldn't make their own maps playing Wizadry.
>>12224732>>12224745I play both and you're a filtered shitter. Bmups are ok but they lack the finnese and discipline required in a shmup, and typically the harder the bmup the slower and more defensively you have to play which is boring.
>>12224732There are like 3 good beat em ups and like 100 good shmups, and the 3 good beat em ups are about as satisfying as a 5/10 shmup.
>>12224769The writer comes off as a boomer who yearns for the out-of-reach good old days instead of focusing on the now (which is ironic, seeing how this article is almost 20 years old). He draws a hard line between "basic casual shit" like Ninja Gaiden and DMC3, and "superior Nippon gaycen culture folded over 1 thousand times" aka spending hundreds of hours trying to 1CC some obscure shmup, with nothing in between.I agree that freeplay is silly, because it's basically cheating, you're not supposed to play with infinite lives. But there are other options. You could limit the number of continues to 5 or so (something every arcade port did back in the day) and give the player a choice to limit it more. Or you could do infinite continues but force a full level restart upon exhausting lives, making the player complete the level properly, but not forcing them to replay the first stage until they ragequit. This seems like the most optimal strategy to me. And even freeplay has its place - when you're tired as shit after a long day, and wanna just shoot or punch some fags, arcade games are great for that. As long as you're not calling yourself a god gamer for creding feeding your way through Metal Slug, I don't see a problem.1CC is a fun challenge, but it's not the be-all end-all of arcade games.
>>12225508>As long as you're not calling yourself a god gamer for creding feeding your way through Metal Slug, I don't see a problem.>1CC is a fun challenge, but it's not the be-all end-all of arcade games.The games are designed to be 1cc'd and scored. For example, anon mentioned Alien vs Predator earlier. Despite what he said, AvP doesn't have "player expression." At the end of each stage you're granted a score multiplier for the number of attacks you land, and its triple the amount granted for the enemies you killed. This is extremely intentional and there's fairly strict combo routes to achieve it. A lot of your score also comes from never taking damage EVER because food gives you HUGE score bonuses at full heath, and you get an end of stage vitality bonus as well. So the game is designed around juggling screens full of enemies while never taking any damage.Now we can look at DoJ and its chaining and compare. DoJ has chaining for score, but everything beyond this is where things get really interesting and we really start to see a huge difference from beat em ups. Chaining grants hyper, and hyper opens up dramatically new routes. And you keep chaining more and more to get even more hyper. And the more you hyper, the higher your rank goes, which makes the game harder. But rank increase can be canceled by bombing out of hyper. This makes routing dynamic where the game drastically changes based on what your goals are. There are strategically placed bees which combo with your chains for score and hyper, and they're mercifully placed at places where hyper is necessary. So a survival player still engages with the scoring to chain into bees to aid them through difficult boss sections and get max extends while keeping their rank at a manageable level, while someone optimizing the game can go for full chains and dramatically change how the game is played. You don't get this in AvP. A lot of its systems are entirely vestigial. And you won't see this if you don't 1cc.
>>12225508icycalm is a fag but you're more of a fag by thinking 1 credit runs weren't king in arcades for anyone who wasn't a toddler or a tourist, I don't see how anyone could have by just pressing buttons like a retard while increasingly losing money
>>12225643>The games are designed to be 1cc'd and scored.Only shmups and puzzle games are designed for scoring. I've never seen a single bmup player take the score seriously outside of extends (except when they already 1CC'd the shit out of it and have nothing better to do). As you said yourself, it's simply not a fun way of playing those games.>>12225678>in arcadesWe're not in arcades anymore, that's the problem. Arcades are fucking dead and gone, they're dying out even in Japan ever since Covid fucked a lot of them over. Nowadays, a Japanese game center is 60% gachas and UFO catchers (basically just merch casinos), 30% old fighting games, and 5% everything else (mostly old rhythm games). There is no "arcade experience" anymore for the vast majority of people. Now we must think about the arcade games in this era, and demanding "1CC or bust" is unrealistic now. That's why modern arcade ports are getting rid of the credit system altogether, instead asking the player to focus on lives and individual levels.
>>12224769This is one of the worst things I've ever read, thank you. I miss blogs.
>>12225716>Only shmups and puzzle games are designed for scoringFind me a video on youtube right now of anyone playing AvP like that. Almost no one even knows it can be played like this. This is because the culture for beat em ups in the West is mostly superficial and casual. Most of what I know about beat em ups is from koreans on fightcade. This is reflected in the indie scene. There is a multitude of high quality indie shmups being made, but beat em ups are almost universally gaudy and casual cash grabs. Like SoR4 is a terrible game. That marvel beat em up that just came out is terrible. These are games made for dumb people who don't know any better. This is why the last time a beat em up genuinely evolved was god hand, which dared to add a ranking system.>That's why modern arcade ports are getting rid of the credit system altogether, instead asking the player to focus on lives and individual levels.In games like Blue Revolver, you only have one credit. You either beat the game without continuing or you don't beat it at all.
>>12225727>Find me a video on youtube right now of anyone playing AvP like that. Almost no one even knows it can be played like this. This is because the culture for beat em ups in the West is mostly superficial and casual. Most of what I know about beat em ups is from koreans on fightcade. This is reflected in the indie scene. There is a multitude of high quality indie shmups being made, but beat em ups are almost universally gaudy and casual cash grabs. Like SoR4 is a terrible game. That marvel beat em up that just came out is terrible. These are games made for dumb people who don't know any better. This is why the last time a beat em up genuinely evolved was god hand, which dared to add a ranking system.I feel like your problem with bmups is that they're not shmups. Which is why you also don't like new stuff like SoR4 that ignores the scoring mechanic entirely. If you don't have fun just punching shit like a boss and finishing with 1CC, if you feel the need to optimize a bmup like a tool-assisted speedrun, then you shouldn't play them, play shmups instead.>In games like Blue Revolver, you only have one credit. You either beat the game without continuing or you don't beat it at all.Cool beans, then that's what the devs decided. I don't see a problem with that, like I don't see a problem with Ninja Warriors Once Again getting rid of credits. I see a problem with asking everyone to play every arcade game with the same mindset. If you tell me that the only way to play the original Final Fight or Metal Slug 3 is to 1CC them because that's what kids in Japan did 30 years ago, and there's no other way of playing these games, I'll tell you to go fuck yourself. If I like the game enough to 1CC it, I will go for it. If I don't wanna bother, I'll give myself a couple of credits and see how far I can go before I get bored. The important part is to enjoy the game. Getting gud comes after that, not before.
>>12225716>demanding "1CC or bust" is unrealistic nowNo it's not, no one complains about permadeath in roguelikes, the problem here is retards like you telling newer players to mindless creditfeed while trivializing the games and the whole culture around them
>>12225771>I feel like your problem with bmups is that they're not shmupsI don't really see how this is an argument. These are both games of the "action" genre. The way gameplay is implemented is through challenges via hand-eye coordination and motor skills. It would stand that there's no reason why someone who doesn't play one wouldn't play the other, unless the games themselves were lacking in terms of design. I'm gunna be honest, you just seem like a huge whiny shitter who's upset that there's not a genre they can casually engage with. You came in here wanting to subvert the thread and make it about credit feeding 20 roms a day and styling yourself an expert on what's good and what's not. That's all this troll thread is about. It's boring. There is no good game that doesn't punish the player for playing poorly. There are only bad games that don't reward the player enough for learning thoroughly and playing well. That's BORING. There is no "player expression".
>>12225786People don't complain about permadeath in rougelikes because modern rougelikes always have some kind of permanent leveling system that goes beyond individual runs. The player never feels like they just fucked everything up, they have something to look forward to even after death, and it does wonders for their motivation. But those old arcade games are not like that. If everyone who played Metal Slug games today actually only ever played with 1CC rules, no one would see the ending in those games ever again. And of course mindless credit feeding is stupid. Playing like that will get boring after you do it once and see the whole game. I always tell new players to set a limit on their credits, usually five or so, and after they complete that challenge, they can go lower. That makes for a far better learning curve than "bang your head against Level 3 with one credit until something bleeds, and if you don't, you're a faggot".>>12225790Shmups and bmups are fundamentally different. Shmups don't have randomness, every enemy and every attack comes out at highly specified moments, and being able to react to them requires trial and error as well as mechanical skill. That's why good shmups are usually short and focused more on scoring. Bmups don't have such a structure. The enemies have set spawning patterns, but their actions are highly situational, much closer to Pac-Man ghosts than anything in shmups. And the player has to react on the fly. That's why bmups are more focused on completion, not scoring.
>>12225820>Shmups don't have randomnessShmups have the same level of randomness beat em ups do, usually *more*. They even use the same techniques, just to a more engaging degree. Like what's the difference between bullet streaming and herding enemies? The latter is just slower, less punishing. Its like normalfags loving stealth mechanics and rpgs because you have infinite time to react. >Gotta slow it down for grandpa, haha I'm such a dad gamer!
>>12225820>permanent leveling system that goes beyond individual runsOnly bad roguelikes do this (they are called roguelites or something), the classic ones with no grindy permament bullshit still exist and are decently popular, see Spelunky for example. At worst you have stuff like Downwell unlocking new "styles", but that's more like unlocking new characters rather than permanent upgrade shit.>no one would see the ending in those gamesWhy are you so obsessed with seeing the ending but not earning it? This is the number one problem in moder gaming and modern player mentality.
>>12225820>The enemies have set spawning patterns, but their actions are highly situational, much closer to Pac-Man ghosts than anything in shmups. And the player has to react on the fly.This is a total lie lol
>>12225771>Getting gud comes after thatLearning is the fun the part. That's always been the fun part of all games ever made.
>>12225841>what's the difference between bullet streaming and herding enemiesThe fact that you know where the bullets will go. The enemies in bmups can just fuck off to the other side of the screen because they feel like it. It also depends on the specific game, good luck herding jack shit together in Sailor Moon, where every enemy is a goddamn nutjob.>>12225848>Only bad roguelikes do this (they are called roguelites or something)The vast majority of rougelikes (or rougelites, whatever you prefer) are like that these days. There are some that try to keep it traditional, like Caves of Qud, but their popularity pales in comparison to stuff like Hades. That genre has all but moved away from the pure "you die-you lose". What people love about it these days is the endless randomness that encourages autism.>Why are you so obsessed with seeing the ending but not earning it?What I mean is that no one's gonna bother completing them because they'll get bored. A good challenge is good, but for some of these games, 1CC is an insane undertaking that might not have even been playtested. You're equating using 2 credits instead of 1 to using freeplay because some fucknut from 2007 told you that's how Japan did it, but you're ignoring the reasons why they did it, and how none of those reasons exist anymore.
>>12225914Why do you keep bringing up roguelites? Both roguelikes and roguelites are about memorizing the modules used in procedural generation.
>>12225914>genre has all but moved away from the pure "you die-you lose"Disagree, sure there is bastardized mainstream shit, but there's more than enough games and players focusing on the traditional side too>What I mean is that no one's gonna bother completing them because they'll get boredOnly a complete retard would think creditfeeding is more fun than actually learning a game>1CC is an insane undertaking No it's not >might not have even been playtestedOkay now you are sounding like a complete retard>some fucknut from 2007 told you that's how Japan did itI've been playing arcades that way since the 90s, I don't know if you americans are retarded or something but that's how arcade games were played in many countries other than Japan
>>12225930I'm not the one who brought them up.>>12225936>Only a complete retard would think creditfeeding is more fun than actually learning a gameWhat is creditfeeding to you? Is using any number of credits whatsoever creditfeeding?>No it's notDepends entirely on the game. Some of them are legitimately nigh impossible. Final Fight's last two levels were literally designed to kill you at times.>Okay now you are sounding like a complete retardNot all arcade games were the pinnacle of game design playtested from every angle possible, especially if they were made on a budget.
>>12225948>Final Fight's last two levels were literally designed to kill you at times.That's not even a little true. You don't need any special tech to beat final fight. Even without the infinite it has tons of moves that safely loop and crowd control. Like AvP.
>>12225959Feel free to post your perfect 1CC on the highest difficulty.
Viewpoint is pretty good
>>12225960Not me but here you gohttps://youtu.be/BXZjtN5mnyE
>>12225948>I'm only limiting myself to 10 credits ok?Cope move, why not go for the real thing instead? Hurts your ego too much?>Depends on the game>not playtestedbullshit, the vast majority of arcade games were balanced for 1 credit, lots of 80s games don't have continues>Final Fight>nigh impossibleYou mean the game that allows you to disable continues and have a 1cc ending?
>>12225964>not meGotcha.>>12225965>Cope move, why not go for the real thing instead? Hurts your ego too much?To practice while having fun with more of the game? Complete with 5, then 4, then 3, etc. What's the problem with that?>bullshit, the vast majority of arcade games were balanced for 1 credit, lots of 80s games don't have continuesTell me how many credits kusoge like Black Touch 96 were balanced around. If you were around in the 90s, you should know how fucking many arcade games were actually pretty fucking bad, or at least poorly balanced.>lots of 80s games don't have continuesGames that don't have continues at all are usually endless, you play purely for score. Continues were created for games where devs wanted to show you more of the game (like new locations) for additional payment, whereas older games were more straightforward.
>>12225984You're making a massive fool of yourself.
>>12225948>levels were literally designed to kill you at times.Yeah video games usually do that.
>>12225984>complete with 5 then 4This is a cope strategy that rarely work, there's much more incentive to learn from your mistakes when you play on one credit basis rather glorified credit feeding>Games that don't have continues at all are usually endless, you play purely for scorebullshit lots of these games have clear cut loops and often refer to loops as "extra play", you're just making up excuses to be a shitter>Continues were created for games where devs wanted to show you more of the gameNo they were meant to milk tourists and toddlers like you.>look at this oddly specific korean jankslop!!! It's not well balanced!!!every time
>*bombs the thread*
>>12226020>playing with more than zero continues is a "cope strategy">continues were created to milk touristsI'm starting to feel like I'm being trolled here.>bullshit lots of these games have clear cut loopsDo you know why they're called "loops"?
I like how this discussion started with "using save states is fine for practice" and ended on "if you do anything less than 1CC on every playthrough of every game, you're not playing the game right".
How is it possible to be this much of a retarded normalfag
>>12226053Do you know that looping games also have ending sceeens, you absolute retard?
>>12226058At least bring up kill screens or something, as they actually end the game.
>>12226054As long as you aren't continuing like an absolute retard, it's totally ok if you don't 1cc, actually
>>12226065So using save states is fine as long as you don't use continues?
>>12226064Kill screens are too much for a shitter like you, might as well start with something simpler
You just know this is the retarded mod that tanked /vr/'s quality after the other two left. Why else would a wojak thread be up for 5 days?
>>12226076Sorry boomer, but the zoomers are taking over retro discussion now. Your games are just too damn good.
>>12226068Continues and save-states are equal, however I don't see people save-stating a run and pretending they beat the game, that's why continuefags are so delusional
>>12214053All fighting games suck lil casual, once you get past the honeymoon phase you'll see
>>12226080I don't think its zoomers. When I look at 30+ threads on /v/ its all retarded normalfags trying to play "catch up" on whatever community they missed out on 20 years ago and demanding things be changed to suit them so they don't have to be humbled. This is the result of the only mods left being manipulative and lazy stoners that are just here to shitpost and troll.
>>12226083>I don't see people save-stating a run and pretending they beat the gamelmaoAlso, people don't even use save states anymore. Rewinding is all the rage, it's far easier to use, and Nintendo includes it in their emulators over save states.
>>12226095>using a switch to emulate anything when it runs even nes games worse than a phone somehow
>>12226097The Switch port of Mushihimesama was good, as far as I heard. I imagine most people play these games on the Switch these days, because it's the pixelshit console, for lack of a better word. Not to mention how difficult arcade emulation can be, especially if you don't know that FinalBurn Neo exists.
>>12226113>The Switch port of Mushihimesama was good, as far as I heardThe switch port isn't nintendo emulation, its reverse enginnered core emulation. He's referring to the roms you get with your online subscription, (lol) which run in nintendo's personal dogshit emulator. Additionally, its kind of pointless to use a switch for m2 ports, as the joycons are so bad you can't really play them well in handheld mode, so you're just hooking it up to a TV/monitor anyways??? And this is pretty minor, but the switch is quantitatively worse than the PS4 for input lag, but its like 1 frame so it realistically doesn't matter. But it means really the only draw of the switch is that it has games PS4 and PC doesn't, but its also removing those games from their eshop. Like espgaluda 2 is a switch exclusive, but its pulled from the eshop and lacking any worthwhile goodies and since we're already making concessions that there's input lag, why would you not just.... emulate it? And none of these normalfags are going on the japanese eshop or getting japanese imports anyways, that's way more involved than just setting up an emulator.Really the only *great* modern M2 ports are Daioujou, Ketsui, and Garegga, with DoJ far and away being the best, and they're all available on multiple consoles. Ray'z is also good in terms of modern features differentiating it from like xbox 360 era M2 stuff, its probably the best M2 port on PC, but what you see is what you get, you just get 3 games flat out with kind of a meh HD version for the 3D ones.
This thread made me buy this game, it's just 8 bucks anyway. Only seriously played Touhou games, they were alright I guess, we'll see if I "get it" this time.
Thread is so bad you would think the washed-up has-been spic was behind it.
>>12226126What's wrong with Nintendo's NES emulator?
>>12225727>SoR4 badSOR4 is better than any shmup that came out in the last ten years lmao>Made for dumb pplok you got filtered by mania+ and it doesn't run well on your third world laptop Got it >>12225771>SoR4 no scoring it has chaining more fun than dingdongpachi and scoring and people play it for score....https://youtu.be/c1V61KB0t-E?si=TQ6MZkyXbls6uyFf
>>12226382not beating the dumb allegations
>>12225790>I'm gunna be honest, you just seem like a huge whiny shitter who's upset that there's not a genre they can casually engage with.And THIS, in a nutshell, is the reason why /shmupg/ was hated by anyone who wasn't a regular. That's just the truth, sorry shitters.
>>12226150Tardo is a never was, not a has been.
>>12212608>picSo true
>>12225820>because modern rougelikes always have some kind of permanent leveling system that goes beyond individual runsWhat? Which ones? What do you mean by roguelike?Some 'roguelike' procedurally generated games have a level up system where you have to do such and such to unlock a thing. But that's nothing like say, Tactics Ogre and sucking the skills out of old 'spirit' dead characters to meld them into other ones.
>>12226793Are you crying that shmups aren't inclusive enough? Stunning and brave.
>>12219904/shmupg/ was schizokinoI mean it was absolutely beyond useless if you wanted to talk about shmups, but for genuinely chronically online schizoid behaviour, it was fascinating
This thread is the reason why shumps aren't discussed on /vr/. You fags make an average /vg/ gacha thread look civilized.
I've been playing Batsugun for 12 hours and still haven't managed to get that damn 1cc. That game is considered easy in the lists I've seen, but for me it's harder than Vasara, which is considered difficult in the same lists. I'll never understand how these things work...>>12226813>plays for funThat's the problem, having fun with Tyrian. But look, many Westerners genuinely prefer Tyrian because they think that not dying = more fun. Ross "Normalfag" Dungeon says this in his review of Tyrian. In fact, that guy is the perfect portrait of the "casual player": he can't learn how to play any game he tries (how many RPGs does he say are broken because he can't understand the basic mechanics?), he thinks that an easy game means it's good, he has fun because he won without trying, and last but not least, he values the narrative more than the game itself. 99% of casyual players use video games as interactive narratives.
>>12227280Just use the real thread
>>12227441Be patient fag, special is the easy one, vanilla Batsugun is about average difficulty, are you using autofire?
>>12213521Donpachi? A. C is so slow that most patterns are hard to dodge. The rest of the games are fine with A shot
>>12227478No, I was playing normally, with that first ship. But now I switched to autofire and used the girl's second ship, and I finally managed to get past the fourth boss and reach the last one (who completely destroyed me).
>>12227280>This thread is the reason why shumps aren't discussed on /vr/They aren't discussed on /vr/ because /vr/ doesn't play anything and is full of hipsters, underage spics, and retro collectors.
>>12227459I'm bored of shitty ass garegga dude
>>12227854Other one
>>12227859That thread was made by the gradius faggot that made this thread
>>12227937No it wasn't. I know because I made the paro thread when somebody asked for a new thread here
>>12227949How many threads in a row have been >PLAY GRADIUS, GRADIUS IS THE BEST SHMUP EVER, MY HECKIN DAD SHMUPERINOThen limped along at one post every 12 hours? Enough is enough. There's nothing good about gradius and not a single person can defend it. I'm sick of you retarded faggots.
>>12227962Nothing wrong with Gradius or its derivates. Stay here with the schizos then I guess.
>>12227967What the fuck do you mean there's nothing wrong with gradius>one of the worst power up systems ever designed, not just in shmups but any game ever>gradius syndrome (to complement the awful power up system)>"level design" is just walls of thoughtlessly placed enemies with the occasional random hatch in the ground or something that may or may not randomly evaporate your ship if you don't have the exact moment it's present memorized>main challenge is not falling asleep and slamming into a wall or something>no actually complementary systems whatsoever to engage with, just grim endurance games explicitly designed for looping with trivial and unsatisfying 1-allsSpace Invaders is more fun than this.
>>12227989>>one of the worst power up systems ever designedHow so? I can really only think about slow initial speed but that's really not an issue unless on checkpoints.>>gradius syndrome (to complement the awful power up system)Ok sure>>"level design" is just walls of thoughtlessly placed enemies with the occasional random hatch in the ground or something that may or may not randomly evaporate your ship if you don't have the exact moment it's present memorizedYou forgot about volcanos, moais, plants and all the other cool stuff in other games like the suns and fire dragons?>>main challenge is not falling asleep and slamming into a wall or somethingPost you're clear>>no actually complementary systems whatsoever to engage with, just grim endurance games explicitly designed for looping with trivial and unsatisfying 1-allsParodius averts that by adding the Twinbee bells, but for what's worth the idea is that scoring is directly tied to survival, so you can loop more if you are a better player and do more points.
>>12227994>You forgot about volcanos, moais, plants and all the other cool stuff in other games like the suns and fire dragons?Yeah, just random stage hazards built into the ground. There's no ships with interesting bullet patterns or behaviors that can combine with other ships with interesting bullet patterns and behaviors to make new and unique challenges. Real shmups start with Rayforce. Everything before that is a mess and the best you'll get is toaplan dodge and shoot games.
>>12228002> There's no ships with interesting bullet patterns Not a bullet hell series>or behaviors that can combine with other shipsThat's a thing though
>>12228006>Not a bullet hell seriesBullet hell has become a buzzword at this point. Anything that has bullets you have to actually dodge has become a bullet hell at this point. It's basically "game is not boring, so it's a bullet hell".>That's a thing thoughIt really isn't and you don't see really almond activating level design until rayforce, with the exception of some toaplan games and even there it's often more awkward and experimental than good.Look at the catalogue right now. How many games in it were made in the 80s? I have no idea why shmups in particular have to be subjected to this mental retardation. No one is pretending pitfall is the pinnacle of platformers, a good introduction to them, or even a good game, period.
>>12228025>Bullet hell has become a buzzword at this point.I mean it as it is used in the context of shmups. The style CAVE does.>It really isn't Doubt you have played anything but the first Gradius game then.>No one is pretending pitfall is the pinnacle of platformersIt's a good game, no one said it's literally the best shmup ever made in this reply chain. Take it to somebody else.
>>12228037>I mean it as it is used in the context of shmups. The style CAVE doesBut you're not just using it in the context of games that are "the style that cave does". Toaplan, Taito, Psyiko, Raizing, pretty much every notable shmup dev that has ever existed falls under "bullet hell" now. And this either means the terminology is wrong, or that every shmup that isn't a bullet hell is just bad and to pretend otherwise is contrarian. Like Konami is not a good shmup dev. I don't give a shit about Konami, period, dude.
>>12228054>But you're not just using it in the context of games that are "the style that cave does".I am. What other people are doing isn't relevant to this discussion.>Like Konami is not a good shmup devThat's like, your opinion bro.
>>12228059>That's like, your opinion bro.Nah, Konami is definitely not comparable to CAVE and Raizing, not even a little.
>>12228063Whatever faggot, maybe it's better if you stay here after all.
>>12228002 >>12228025 >>12228054 >>12228063Fuck off tranny Ikeda revenge bullets are literally ripped off from Gradius
>>12225790>upset that there's not a genre they can casually engage withAll arcade games, shmups included, are designed to be as easy to casually engage with as humanly possible. No cutscenes, no complicated controls, just pick up and play. It doesn't get any more casual than that, and that's why all pre-gacha mobile games, like Candy Crush and Angry Birds, follow the arcade formula.The fact that they're difficult is part of that too. You die often, so you can stop at practically any point, the game is not forcing you to sit down and play for hours.
>>12227967Gradius is great the problem is that it's basically a 1LC game. All problems regarding Gradius arise from the power up system as other anon said.Tuning the rank system and dropping more power ups after death Nemesis style, or even Life Force style option recovery would have vastly improved this. Gradius just kind of is what it is.
>>12228375Actually the single biggest improvement they could make to that game is fixed speed or at least make the base speed higher. That would make the game so much better.
>>12228375I wouldn't say it's strictly 1LC but I can agree recovery can become much harder than that.Also by power up system, do you mean specifically the reset on checkpoints? >>12228382Not losing speed would be great indeed.
>>12228393>do you mean specifically the reset on checkpoints?Yes. this is why they have the rank system but it's still all fucked up and unbalanced the later you get in the game.The other issue I don't see brought up is how the power up system takes your attention away from the game, dodging bullets while trying to get power ups while trying to not miss the power up you want can be annoying.
>>12228415Don't think the latter is worth bringing up because you get used to just knowing where the cursor is without looking after enough runs.
>>12228312>Ikeda revenge bullets are literally ripped off from GradiusDid you know pacman invented movement in video games
>>12228479>le ironic bullshit will make him forget I'm a retarded newfag poserno but nice try
>>12228415>The other issue I don't see brought up is how the power up system takes your attention away from the game, dodging bullets while trying to get power ups while trying to not miss the power up you want can be annoying.Its not a good power up system period. Like you can have a system where you can allocate where you want powerups, sure, but its pretty arbitrary and honestly shouldn't exist. But Caladrius, for example, does this better. You get upgrades throughout the stage by scoring, disassembling bosses, etc, and then you allocate them into different shot types afterwards. But again, even by rayforce, its already moving away from this in into something better. Collecting power-ups after you max chains and increases in score after every successive power up, almost like a Yagawa game. It's not perfect but its already building up into something a bit more meaty. What is spreading upgrades around into different bits of the ship even adding to the game? Its retarded. A lot of mechanics in Konami shooters don't exist in other shmups because.... They're bad.And to take this even further a lot of these dad shmups just suck ass, no one can ever articulate why they're good, just that they're "classics". Its always "uhhh X game is heckin ebin because it looks like a heavy metal album cover and you fight a dead baby fetus", not "this mechanic is really good because Y and its interesting to learn because Z".
>>12228497In that interview Ikeda literally says "what if I made the bullet density of salamander but not on accident". lol
>>12228528No he didn't tranmakufag, he basically implied he wanted to get rid of walls
>>12228556lol
Anyone has a route guide to reach all stages yet?
>>12228562>what if i made no walls toaplan slop but with konami's bullet density?Genius
>>12228612>konami's bullet densityWhat bullet density? He's talking about loop 5 of Salamander.
>>12228636If Salamander is all you can see in Ikeda shit you're a retarded newfag poser
>>12228668Listen nigger, CAVE shmups aren't JUST curtains of bullets. Being able to switch between slow and fast movement alone is genius. This opens up an entire new layer of player intentionality and lets you do all kinds of fun things with bullet patterns. This is an OBJECTIVE upgrade to all shmups. This doesn't mean all shmups that don't have it are bad, but the second we add it to a game it is that much better. Its OBJECTIVELY more fun to have greater control over your ship and macro/micro through a wider variety of bullet patterns. There is not a single good game where a power up changes your character's base speed. That's an AWFUL mechanic. Having a smaller hitbox is an OBJECTIVE improvement. A smaller player hitbox means more screen real estate to work with, which means there's more interesting things you can do on it. The larger the hitbox is, the less complex a game can be. This is all common sense. Even these small changes dramatically changed shmups in far more dramatic ways than Gradius having successive stages and power ups that carry between levels. Because the way these mechanics were implemented are AWFUL. These are all minor changes in past games that were combined together and used effectively to create something far greater than the sum of its parts. Having a charge shot in R-Type doesn't dramatically change the game because the ship has a hit box the size of a freight train.Games do not age, they don't get bonus points for being the "first" to implement something. A game is good or it isn't. Doesn't matter when it was made. And Gradius is bad. Playing bad games is a waste of time. There are way too many good games to play.
what is a shmup
>>12228887It's a genre of shooting games. Jets 'n' Guns is the best one, try it.
>>12228692>and then, he sperged out and babbled stupid shit
If shoot'em ups are called shmups, why aren't beat'em ups called bemups?
>>12229172They're called belt scrollers, or brollers
>>12226996Read the post again. Carefully this time.
>>12229398It sure seems like you're crying that this environment isn't inclusive enough.
>>12213698wait til you find out how artists and musicians learn
>>12215928there is legit a giant group of people trying to learn languages by doing nothing but watch videos in that language. Its so retarded but people are scared of grammar and speaking so they fall for it and cope when it fails
>>12216650My meme folder is already full though
you need shmup memes more than anything, really
>>12229454damn
>>12229446It sure seems like your reading comprehension is questionable.
>>12215404The board's inhabitants got replaced by chuds due to /pol/, and chuds lack the creativity and fluid intelligence of their leftist counterparts, because they literally have different brain structures causing them to be that way. Culturally, all we have is what the leftists left behind, and the chuds can only regurgitate and repeat that. Hence, over a decade of wojaks, pepes and other stale memes.
The save-state practiser is immunized against all dangers: One may call him a tryhard, cuck, zoomer, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him a cheater and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: "I've been found out".
>>12229667don't ever post anything like this again
>>12228519The rank system is unbelievably jank though, I just got done playing Gradius III for SNES and this game punishes mercilessly for being powered up. This is straight up bad game design, you shouldn't have to play 2 games, a shmup and a rank manager.Aside from the slowdown even. I used to like this game but actually it's just a fucking mess. Basically every other developer got console Shmups right and honestly I haven't really been impressed by anything Konami 8 and 16 bit era, I have no idea why they are as highly regarded as they are.
>>12229941Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius Forever with Me is goodNo slowdown on PS1 or Saturn, lots of characters, rank isn't that bad
>>12228887A miserable pile of bullets
>>12229864I thought everyone did this.
>>12229941>filtered by the easier gradiusngmi
>>12228692>Muh Small hitbox and complexity Yeah so good, that's why no one plays HellsinkerThere's value in simplicity and bigger hitbox makes threats more palpable and decisions need more precision >Gradius one badTypical Shitter cope
>>12229989Everyone who is actually getting 1ccs/high scores, yeah
>>12230041I actually found the other ones easier.
>>12230154>There's value in simplicityWhy play gradius when asteroids exists then? What a ridiculous and arbitrary statement.
>>12230497You can play both
>>12230504I accept your concession
>>12230519? No one ever said you can only ever play one shmup
>>12230524It takes effort to play shmups. It's not just blowing through a rompack in a weekend and pretending to be an expert. It requires so much effort that the flaws in games become really, really obvious and you're gunna spend a lot of time thinking about them. It's not like you think it is.
>>12230536You kinda can unless you are autistic enough to do 1cc of literally every ROM you touch whether you like it or not.
>>122305391cc is a the bare minimum. If you can't stomach 1cc'ing a game then there's no way you actually like it.
>>12230545Point is, you can play both, end up liking one over the other, or maybe even both.
>>12230479>ackshually Gradius III arcade is easier than snesWhat is with you zoomers and your retarded obsession with contrarianism? Fuck off
>>12230559No I didn't say that, I said I did not find III to be the easiest Gradius. I also said Gradius III was a flawed and unbalanced game, not that it was particularly hard/easy.One other thing about it is that if you overclock the game it plays completely differently, both for better and worse. I did 140% in RA which is roughly the difference between fast and slowrom and wow, what a difference. The game played beautifully at times but once ranked picked up enemies moved extremely fast and flooded the screen with bullets, as much as possible on the SNES that is. The game is built around the slowdown. Great potential not exploited.
>>12212608>MemorizationThat's how autistic people "play" games. If you're not reacting to the situation at hand and having fun, you're not playing a game, you're just autistically apeing real human behavior. Sad.
>>12224631they have, video system, older more random enemy oriented shmups, literal games with full on random spawns like garegga and things like gunvein in a shuffle mode.They would not play them by simply not knowing them, shmups require more publicity rather than anything else really.>>12224732bmups have the same level of execution and memo, beat em ups just normally force you to do more spacing in the vertical axis through grabs and by having more specific position related to the enemy by short attacks rather than constant screen danger which shmups have.Aka shmups are long range, beat em ups are just more shorter range (normally).The player behavior in beat em ups is really rigid, it's simply that they are less obvious by the belt scroll causing people to not recognize that their positioning caused the enemy behavior to change.This is in all videogames btw, shmups, beat em ups and everything, neraly all videogame ai is based around positioning and predefined functions, is just that shmups make it obvious by being 2d plane games where positioning analysis is pretty recognizable, unlike a beat em up, they aren't random, just extremely coinjoined.Aka they are the same shit in terms of ai, beat em ups are more popular by being newer and having a more known relationship to modern games by fighting games having ties to beat ups, modern shooter games still are in the shmup bracket but unlike fighting games they shifted to a western dev area which caused people to not investigate their arcade roots by studios like id not talking about their inspirations and the reasons they wanted to do fps (carmack for example was a big space invaders fan and one of his first dos game was a literal shmup called slordax).So shmups are just unpopular by simply not having any memetic/media approach by people not telling their story while losing linkship by changing commercial models from arcades/arcade oriented ports to pc, thus people don't know them so they don't play.
