Is there anything more miserable than following along with a guide as you play a game? It's like watching a longplay with extra steps.Of course, official printed guides an exception. Those are part of the experience.
>>12277528That's fucking stupid. You're a hypocrite.
the larger problem is the modern autism to 100% a game on your first playthroughalways do the first playthrough blind, if it's just so fucking amazing that you need to 100% it so you can brag to losers on the internet then print out all the walkthrus you want and play it again
>>12277549>heh... you say you're against using guides yet hypocrite that you are you read the instruction manual...
>>12277528>back in the day there was no such thing as going online to look up a how-to guideYeah instead you could call a number and a guy would tell you what the guide he had in the company archive would tell him. Or you could look it up in any of MANY different strategy guides.By the way gamefaqs has been around since the late 90s.
>>12277568Back in the day (Isekai Ojisan mostly talks about Genesis era) games were around 2 hours long, and even RPGs could be finished in under 15 hours.It doesn't hurt as much missing a secret in those games, as it does missing something unique in a 60~80 hours game that otherwise felt like it would allow you to backtrack.
Companies intentionally put things in games that either require pure guesswork, blind exploration, or brute force grinding unless you know the "secret" alternate strategy. Then the game magazines would print these strategies. The company gets a free advertisement for the game, and the game magazine gets purchases by people who want to know how to beat the game. It's win-win for them.This is LITERALLY a baked in feature of the video game economy.
>read paragraph>do what it says>read paragraph>do what it says>read paragraph>do what it sayspeople actually play entire RPGs like this...
>>12277528Not all games are the same, even in the same genre>Dragon Quest 3>there is never a need to use a guide because nothing is missable>Super Mario RPG>didn't use a guide? Well fuck you, you're not getting all the frog coinsI would go further with games like Fallout 3 even though not retro is a perfect example when using a guide is mandatory if you want the best rewards, for example one branch of a questline gives you just money and the other branch an unique one of a kind item that makes a whole enemy type ignore you completely, there is also a quest where you can get both rewards if you follow very specific chains of events near the end, plenty of times I felt like an idiot for not checking the wiki to see the best course of action.
>>12277696>not my heckin' frog coins!>playthrough ruined!
>>12277624>It doesn't hurt as much missing a secret in those games, as it does missing something unique in a 60~80 hours game that otherwise felt like it would allow you to backtrack.If it hurts you're way too neurotic. You're missing out on life by playing vidya, so don't even worry about missing out on video game content. Couldn't be more irrelevant.
>>12277568>always do the first playthrough blindLiterally this. If you're just following a checklist what's the fucking point, watch a yt video. It's not like you're limited to one playthrough of a game anyways.
>>12277703I'm telling you how things are.Being edgy about expectations won't change how people feel.
>>12277690some people like to do things by the book, rather than write it themselves..
>>12277618The playonline final fantasy ix guide pissed me off so much with their online only content that I never bought a game guide again. I was printing gamefaqs guides at the library by then.
fomo-driven behaviorthey're so afraid of missing something they don't even really play the game
>>12277698Fuckoff they made a hidden chest and only gave you one shot to jump on an npc to get to it during the only time it walks by the ledge. Thats fucking petty
>>12277719>final fantasy ix guideWas so bad it turned me off from the game entirely. Didn't go back and beat it until 20 years later.
>>12277528what about official hotlines? did you ever call? i had a friend who played breath of fire without reading and racked up a $200 bill asking questions every so often because it was $1.99 a minute and they’d fuck with you and take their sweet time. is that official and part of the experience, calling a capcom tip hotline? they had them for resident evil 3, i remember calling it to show someone what happens.
>>12277728nobody actually used hotlines, they were scams that survived by tricking a handful of retarded whales like your "friend" into calling them
>>12277716Some things are not a big deal if you don't follow the book, other things can kill you if you don't follow the book
>>12277732>play the game by myself? without a walkthrough holding my hand? but I might lose!
>>12277734More like you will lose cool content the game has, not just die in world 1
walkthroughs are big gay but but nothing wrong with looking up certain things if the game is actively hiding information from youI've seen old rpgs that don't even tell you what spells do, or don't show you equipment stats and expect you to like spreadsheet out combat hits just to tell if something is an upgrade or not
>>12277723well, now that you know that you have something to look forward to in your second playthru ;^)
The worst part is when the guides or the tips are absolutely retarded and as a result the games get a bad rep because of the players who didn't really play the game and only blindly trusted the retards.
ngl I went back to just playing rpgs blind like I did when I was a kid and suddenly they were fun again. Constantly taking your eyes off the game to reference a walkthrough, never figuring out puzzles or fights yourself, it starts feeling more like a chore than a game.>b-but you missed the best weapon in the game!I don't care, at least I had fun.
>>12277748Fallout 1
>>12277731people actually used hotlines. you’re sort of giving yourself away there that you weren’t alive then, homie. and why are you repeating back to me that they’re scams when i just told you they are? punk ass bitch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj2drENV9ukNintendo Power Hotline doesn't look like they were trying to stall to make people pay more. Gotta wonder if they changed their behaviour in front of cameras though. With that said, they were probably the only ones that got so many calls they did NOT need to stall.The guy giving tips from memory while playing another game is my hero.
>>12277752>b-but you missed the best weapon in the gameThose kinds of people don't understand how fun it can be to just scrape by with what you have instead of power gaming all the time and knowing the locations and routes for all of the items and skills. They can beat the game being over powered, I can do it with less.
I'm going to be serious for a minute here and I gotta say that the youngsters who pretend like looking up information about games back then was exactly like today are completely wrong and fail to comprehend that things could ever be different.To take the example in the OP's pic, back then if you had the official strategy guides, you only had the knowledge of the official strategy guide. Check gamefaqs or yt video or whatever it is kids do these days, about the same game, and you have 30 years of combined knowledge about the same game that includes that official strategy guide among other things. The big difference in the combined knowledge acquired since then comes from emulation, with more people dissecting the game,using savestates or RAM edits or even directly looking through the game's code. The second big difference is that today you can find this info for literally EVERYTHING. Back then you didn't even have 30% of the current information we have on the MOST POPULAR games, and good fucking luck finding info on more obscure games. You were an European who bought The Note on PSX in 1997 and wanted to look up how to find all the endings? Even if you had an 20 hours per month internet that you paid the equivalent of what you're paying today for unlimited, that wouldn't have helped you because the information JUST WASN'T THERE. Today, it takes 10 seconds.
Post games that have no text walkthroughs or maps. I'll start with this one.
>>12277834>completely wrong and fail to comprehend that things could ever be different.zoomies don’t have the patience to read or something. they think wikipedia and/or a youtube doc is all they need to know everything about something and then fill in the blanks by making shit up. instead of being humble and learning from elders. arrogant brats at their own peril. previous gens were infinitely more patient. i blame nonstop easy internet addiction and they were born overwhelmed by so much past shit that’s great that they’re expected to check out so they are in a hurry and missing steps whereas we had less games growing up, films etc. even though we still were looking back too. so i have empathy. yet the cockiness in knowing nothing can get my goose. it’s too late to fix it.
If you got stuck or keep getting the bad ending and needed a licensed strategy guide then it's not a good game. If the control scheme is so complex you need to refer to the manual then it's not a good game.Get better taste. but looking up the complete command list for arcade fighters is fine though :)
>>12277732would it kill them to spend 2-3 hours learning what to do by themselves in an rpg? absolutely not! but they feel like their time is too precious to waste
>>12277528Why doesn't she just download a pdf of the strategy guide then?
>>12277528i am this uncle nowhow does it feel, past-me?
>strategy guideits the dev's fault for hiding stuff from me>save scummingstatistically 1 in a million players get perfect rng, so it's not cheating to make sure I get perfect rng>memory editingI just hate farming gold
>>12277528Biggest gaming related surprise to me was finding out some people 100% GTA gamesI never imagined someone would actually find all oysters in GTA:SA or whatever
>>12277870i did that and i felt pretty empty afterall my best vidya memories are when i was a kid and crawled around bob-omb battlefield and pretended i was a helpless baby
>>12277868>>save scumming>statistically 1 in a million players get perfect rng, so it's not cheating to make sure I get perfect rng>>memory editing>I just hate farming goldExactly my thoughts. It's not cheating if you're only using them to achieve things that are technically possible legitimately. Someone could spend 12 years grinding tutorial dungeon mobs to hit level 99 at the start of the game, I'm just doing it a little faster.
>>12277868Skipping a gold grind in RPGs generally makes the game harder anyway, so realistically and objectively correctly speaking anyone who grinded for gold did not beat their respective games.
you didn't beat it
>>12277528>Is there anything more miserableYes, being you.I do what i want, how i want. If you don't like it unc, kys.
>>12277528Some games absolutely do need a guide though. Phantasy Star 2 had one packed in directly with the game so they definitely expected players to need one. I can think of some others like Final Fantasy 12 that just have way too much obscure stuff to possibly find playing blindly.
>>12277528Hexen is meant to be played with a written guide. If you haven't played Hexen with the gamefaqs guide you're missing out.
>>12278154The vast majority of console JRPGs released in the west came with a strategy guide, including A-RPGs in Europe. They didn't in Japan.
>>12277528>Is there anything more miserable than following along with a guide as you play a game?Reading shitposts by le hot take babies.
>>12277528>free guides are bad but ones I pay for are good, I need to consooom
>>12277793I called the NP hotline twice, and I can confirm they did not stall for time at all. I told them my problem, they told me a solution in less than 30-60 seconds. Both times the final bill wasn't much more than $5. Both were for the Legend of Zelda series. First was because I couldn't figure out where the fuck Bagu's cabin was in Zelda 2, second time was because I read about the hidden room in ALttP and wanted to know how to reach it. Honestly thought the guy was yanking my chain for the latter.>Ok, save your game at the church, then turn your system all the way off and then back on.>Load at the church, and follow this path at 100% dashing speed until you get to the hole that goes to the castle's sewers.>If you got there fast enough, you'll fall into the hidden room. If not, turn console off and back on and try again.It worked on my 3rd try. Sorry I doubted you hotline guy.On the other end of the spectrum was the Tsunami Media hotline. I called because I got stuck on a puzzle in Return to Ringworld, and it was a pre-recorded message tree you had to slowly navigate to get to the puzzle you were stuck on to hear the solution. Took 5 minutes just to drill down to the one I needed.
>>12277528If I get stuck in some part of a game for a few minutes I look up longplay x game and get to that part and get past it, everyone does it.
>>12278425>few minutes Get better attention span>longplay>>WARNING: most of our longplays use savestates!Personally I'd rather get my tips from someone who actually beat the game
>>12278426Too bad, I still beat the game. I'm a better player than you.
>>12278154you dont need a guide for Phantasy Star 2 if you didnt train your brain to give up when facing any sort of adversity.
>>12277528>Of course, official printed guides an exception. Those are part of the experience.Incorrect. You didn't beat the game.
>>12278164I got stuck maybe twice throughout the gameHexen 2 on the other hand is almost unplayable without a guide
>>12278426>Personally I'd rather get my tips from someone who actually beat the gameYeah I agree I prefer watching 100% no glitch speedruns instead of longplays.
>>12277849>immediately undermines his own point
I made the mistake of playing games with full on guide,it was a terrible experience,feel more like working than enjoying the gameDon't make these mistakes anons....
>>12277528go back in time and tell devs to stop making 100 hour rpgs filled with points of no return and missables. If things were closer to chrono trigger then it wouldn't be a problem
>>12277834It depends entirely on the game. Many official strategy guides were written with information that came straight from the developers. A lot of the time, I find official guides to be more detailed and more accurate than their online counterparts. Obviously, if an online guide was written by disassembling the game, it will be the most accurate source, but very few games get that treatment.
This game is almost unbeatable without any guide
>>12277528Modern audiences are so used to AAA design that a game not spoonfeeding them progression or presenting any sort of friction is seen as bad design.
the best of both worlds
>>12278154>>12279753JRPG's that basically need strategy guides are some of my least favorite as eventually you sorta realize that your gameplay and exploration is going to look almost the same as the other guys. This was a particular issue as IX went as much as I liked that game. Several bosses had gimmicks that required a very stringent strategy that left for very little creativity and towards the end I felt like I was playing a VN with extra hoops more so than an RPG that allowed for me to deal with enemies creatively. there was also the awful focus on rng stealing in that particular entry.
>>12279773I've played every JRPG and I've never seen one that required a guide just to beat.
>>12277528>>12277690>>12277624>>12277719>>12277734>>12277734>learning how to play a game better makes it more shallow and boringTry playing something besides rpgs and jrpgs? Good games get better the better you get at them, the more you know, the more skilled you become the more they offer. JRPGs and WRPGs are the opposite, their shallowness and piss easy gameplay gets exposed the moment you learn how they work, or read a guide, or beat them once.
>>12277568No fuck off I don't have time for that
I like how OP never mentioned which genre gets ruined by guides, but everyone immediately knew it was rpgs because they are barely games, their main challenge is finding the right NPC in town to trigger the next dungeon event.
>>12279791do you need a guide to tell you how to hold right?
>>12279787i play them for the stories with that little psone one-handed rpg controller. it’s a combination of reading a fantasy book and listening to melodic electronic music, very calming, helps me to relax. i’ve never cared that they aren’t challenging. that’s not the type of game experience they offer for me. if you want, say i’m not a real gamer or not playing a real game. i don’t give a flying fuck through a rolling donut whether you think i’m playing a good game. otherwise, i agree with you. i also play games for challenge. my favorite is every so often i play ridge racer to beat the black car. my favorite game is flashback for sega genesis, favorite rpg is suikoden or if you count it, shining force 2. i play easy games and more challenging games, but i don’t think a game being easy makes it not good. it needn’t be work to be fun.
>>12279787You say while shooters are basically the same, find the right path through trial and error or just >imitate the movements of the youtuber and win
>>12279791If you used a guide to spoil all the secret exits in SMW, you ruined the experience for yourself. Sorry!
>>12279791>>12279795>>12279797>>12279798Autoscrolling dialogue text that moves slower than your reading speedUnskippable cutscenes you’ve already seen (sometimes twice)Backtracking to previous locations because a door is now magically unlockedSpamming X / A / Confirm to melt trash encountersUsing ice magic on the fire boss (so clever!)Using debuffs on a boss who buffs a lotNot attacking when the boss is obviously ENRAGED, CHARGING, or GLOWING REDLeveling up and buying gear that will be obsolete in 45 minutesRandom encounters every three steps while trying to solve a puzzleConstant menuing and Inventory management where 90% of items are “might be useful later”Side quests that are just “kill 10 of the thing you already kill nonstop”New party member joins underleveled and nakedEscort missions where the NPC walks slower than your character’s idle animationThe game pretending choices matter (they do not)The tutorial that lasts longer than most action games and arcade gamesRealizing the hardest part wasn’t strategy it was patience
>>12279809Still s lot more than "hold right and press a occasionally"
>>12279809>stacking blocks
>>12279791here's your fps walkthru, bro
>>12279809the nice thing about rpg guides is you don't have to talk to every npc in a town to progress the story, you can just talk to that 1 important NPC and make progress. That is basically the only challenge they offer. The less time you spend in an rpg the more time you have to play actual games.
>>12279809>Realizing the hardest part wasn’t strategy it was patiencelike i said, it relaxes me. been playing them since 1994. mostly the same old 16-bit ones and a few ps games. i’m in it for the music and fantasy reading, seeing the backgrounds is very nostalgic. it’s a fun exercise. most of the stuff your lunatic ass typed doesn’t apply to the old rpg games i play. you maybe could use some patience. there’s no purpose in playing games. either you want to or you don’t, for fun. if you need the game to satisfy other shit, you need to get a fucking life
>>12279821Honestly it has so much health some people may think you need to do a puzzle or some shit
>>12279826>>12279826rpgs play themselves, you might as well just watch Longplay videos, if the player does commentary it's usually more entertaining than actually wandering in an rpg, and you can always fast forward or skip boring parts easily on youtube longplays.
>>12279826Nooooo you will do the same stage of hard game multiple times and be happy!!! (BTW hard game is about 1 hour long hope you didn't pay full price for it)
>>12279831I do this but with point and click and puzzle focused horror games, though no commentary I don't care about that shit.
>>12279809>Autoscrolling dialogue text that moves slower than your reading speedconsole rpg’s that let you change the text speed have been going strong since 1992, redditard.
>>12279809big ol melty over the existence of something he doesnt like. Holy hell
>>12279809>Escort missions where the NPC walks slower than your character’s idle animationLiterally only happens in morrowind and nowhere else?
>>12279798shooters get better the better you get at them, while jrpgs are ruined once you beat them or read a guide. Thats why you hear so many rpgfags say "I wish I could experience that rpg for the first time again, just erase my memory..." It's something people say when talking about watching movies, or very passive hobbies, not playing actual games that reward skill, execution and practice....
>>12279831>rpgs play themselvesno they fucking don’t and there you go trying to skip scenes. lay off the adderall
>>12279846plenty of rpgs have legitimately fun combat
>>12279846>It's something people say when talking about watching movies, or very passive hobbies, not playing actual games that reward skill, execution and practice....i play both. you’re not macho for memorizing levels and attack patterns. and if you want to say playing an rpg is passive and not a real game, go ahead. you think that’s an insult. i play really hard games sometimes, i get it, that is fun too. it’s satisfying to read a book too. can you do that? can you hold still for ten minutes? i doubt you have the patience to read a book. is that a skill? all of this is semantics. super faggy bullshit, dude
More people have talked about RPGs in this thread in the last hour than people have talked about shooters on this board in the last month. The envy is radiating off his silvergun right now its so funny.
>>12279846>shooters get better the better you get at themYou mean when you figure out where the enemies come from and do just from trial and error, what you call "Skill" is just muscle memory from wasting your time playing the same stage over and over instead of playing more games.>I wish I could experience that rpg for the first time again, just erase my memory...That's storyfags, of course you wouldn't know what a story is if you only play games for illiterate people line shooters Games like shooters are just mere muscle memory from doing the same shit over and over, it's not clever or impressive, rpg and wrpgd require having an actual brain to perform strategies to win.>but I won grindingCongrats you won on easy mode.
>>12279847rpgs are just too easy, I don't feel like they need my input more than 5% of the time, which is usually a mid game boss or final boss. but 95% of the time my grandma could be holding the controller and progressing the story and characters along. As long as the player is literate and has a pulse...
>>12279851This is the faggot crying over pokemon threads?
>>12279860back to your containment board
>>12279859Cool go beat mother 1 only using auto battle for everything but boss battles, let's see how easy that is.
>>12279859this is a lame generalization, there are a vast multitude if different types of rpg’s with really different gameplay. i’m thinking you played one (1) and gave up.
To answer the OP, yes, there is something more miserable than that. Doing daily quests in MMORPGs.
>>12279851>People discuss the 40 hours long game more than the 1 hour long gameOh snap
>>12279850I can critique RPGs because I actually play them and know their flaws...I beat Trials of Mana (2D) a few weeks ago. I read widely: I love Gene Wolfe and C.S. Lewis, but I also read pulp, and I don’t pretend it’s on the same level. The games I like the most are arcade action style, shmups, fps, fighting games, etcGames that truly require skill demand more patience than RPGs, but it’s an engaged patience....not the mindless kind spent holding forward to the next town, sorting inventory, or spamming X through dialogue.
>>12279868Daily quests in MMOs are basically a chore you endure to get more juice to continue playing your game moreReading a guide while playing is attempting to play less of your game and get it over with as painlessly and quickly as possibleGuides are still worse.
>>12279878>I played easy game and it was easyWow
>>12279883turn based rpgs are easy
>>12279889They are actually harder than action games because you can't just dodge everything, the same goes for any rpg that uses dice roll to determine if you get hit or not.
>>12279854>Games like shooters are just mere muscle memory from doing the same shit over and over, it's not clever or impressive, rpg and wrpgd require having an actual brain to perform strategies to win.>use your brainyeah rpgs are so challenging that simply reading a guide ruins all their challenge lol>>12279894>rpgs are harder because of unpredictable rng and luck>you wanna see hard? come lets fight with dice rolls and coin flips and see who wins!lmao
>>12279903>yeah rpgs are so challenging that simply reading a guide ruins all their challenge Who said this? I have only seen people mention guides to find hidden shit, which you would expect in games with a lot of content instead of just a few 10 minute long stages and nothing else.
>>12279878so i was right calling you a redditard on adderall. you have all the talking points memorized. “holding right” wow really impressive blow to rpg’s. you can say it’s a passive piece of shit and mindless, i play them for relaxation. do you do anything for pleasure gaming-wise or is everything about checking a box of hardcore skill with ten monster energy drinks up your ass? they’re games, homie. you’re not doing anything. anyway i’m being a hard-ass, you’re alright. you do you. let me be play shining force ii for the 18th time since 1993 for no goddamn reason except because it’s soothing and i love the music and backhrounds and shit, fuck off with your need to have a game fiddle your balls in every way.
>>12277528>NOOO YOU CAN'T LEARN HOW TO PLAY A GAME WELL YOU HAVE TO STUMBLE ALONG BLINDLY UNTIL YOU BEAT IT THEN MOVE TO THE NEXT GAME AND DO THE SAME HOW ELSE WILL YOU FINISH YOUR PISS EASY RPG BACKLOG EVERY YEAR?!
>>12279903>come lets fight with dice rolls and coin flips and see who winsYou forgot to add you have a character with unique abilities and skills you build on, if your build is shit becuase you are too dumb to make a good character of course you're gonna die and not even rng on your side will save you. That alone is harder that any game where the player can say, "no fuck you, dodging your attack" to the enemy.
>>12279908why is it hard to admit rpgs are piss easy, mostly brain-dead genre? I play them too, but I don't sugar coat it and pretend they are challenging and deep. If you play them to relax and zone out then it should be obvious they aren't asking much of you. Don't give me a McDonalds burger and call it gourmet luxury food. It is what it is.>>12279916>satisfying an rpg level and gear check is harder than any action game that has dodgingnow you're just seething incoherently.turn based rpgs aren't hard or challenging in the slightest. Have you ever beaten a hard game in your life? Which ?
I used to be that guy who just sat there with a walkthrough on one monitor and the game on the other, following the guide verbatim... it was awful, just going through the motions without ever really playing the game...
>>12279926I'm stating a fact, in one game you can dodge in the other you can't. It doesn't take a genius to know which one is harder.>satisfying an rpg level and gear check Sounds like you're grinding >have you ever beaten a hard game in your life? Which ?Wizardry 1, enemies can instant kill you and it's up to the dice roll, then you figure out how to deal with it and bounce back, not just press up and dodge like you would do in any shooter
>wizardry 1>hard
>frogposter with no argument
>>12279926>why is it hard to admit rpgs are piss easy, mostly brain-dead genre? I play them too, but I don't sugar coat it and pretend they are challenging and deep. If you play them to relax and zone out then it should be obvious they aren't asking much of you.can you see you’re conflating two things, and strawmanning be ausei have repeatedly stated you can say they’re easy, i don’t deny that or care. where did i say it wasn’t obvious that the game isn’t asking much of me, i said i’m pmaying shining force ii for the 18th time, you think that is asking a lot? in terms of what, challenge? no. you see how you’re trying to shame me for not being bonked over the head with rigorous gameplay, bbut at the same time lecture me (based on nothing, i’ve said the opposite) for saying rpg’s are more than just easy games. so you won’t be satisfied with me agreeing with you and just wanting to sometimes enjoy a piss easy game. you’re a psycho who is trying to punish me for it. change your diaper and go for a walk, faggot. that ought to be an immense challenge, requiring a lot of skill and precision.
>>12279935>sounds like grindingno, grinding is for exceeding the level/gear check to make fights even easier than they are intended to be. Which players can do since rpgs depend more on characters you build than player skill anyway.>rpgs are harder because you can't dodgeyou've never actually beaten a challenging game in your life that's the issue. In Gradius 3 you can dodge bullets, it's possible, but can YOU? You actually have to do it yourself which takes a lot of strategy, practice and execution. You can't just grind your ship's gear/level and watch it melt everything in front of you, or get its RNG probability stacked in your favour. In Ninja Gaiden Black you can dodge attacks, in 3rd Strike you can parry attacks, but can you? You actually have to do it, you can't just order your character to do it and watch passively like in rpgs.>>12279965I was only saying they are easy games. If you agree then what are you getting excited about? There's more to them? I never said you need to play challenging games.Maybe you got confused, because there are posters like this guy >>12279935who not only argues that rpgs are very hard but also harder than any action game that involves 'dodging' ...
>>12279975>You actually have to do it yourself which takes a lot of strategy, practice and execution.video games arent hard, get a real hobby you fucking child.
>>12279982>you fucking childseething >video game aren't hardnot the ones you play lol
I have never used a guideI play games for funI don't care about turbo autism 100% collections that you will immediately forget about as soon as you turn off the game
>>12279992Youve been in this thread for hours and still cant admit that your favorite games arent hard compared to adult hobbies. Its fucking pathetic. Just admit it I play baby games too just admit Ninja Gayden Black isnt hard
>>12279975>rpgs depend more on characters you build than player skill anyway.Exactly why rpgs will always be harder than any action game. Your "skills" don't mean shit and you will have to think.>In Gradius 3 you can dodge bullets, it's possible, but can YOU?Yes it's pretty easy to dodge bullets in a shooter, now if you mean doing a specific stage with no deaths I could if I wasted my time long enough playing nothing but Gradius 3 but I value my time.>You can't just grind your ship's gear/level and watch it melt everything in front of you....that's literally the whole point of gradius but anyway there is plenty of rpgs where levels don't mean everything and you have to deal with the tools you are given.>You actually have to do it, you can't just order your character to do it and watch passively like in rpgs.And that's why rpgs are harder, you can't rely on your character if you build them like shit or the enemy's stronger, now you can rely on yourself in any action game if you are autistic enough.>>12279982>video games arent hardSomewhat true, they are only hard when playing against other skilled players, you can't use a guide or memorize that>get a real hobbyWhere do you think you are? How are gages not a hobby?>>12279992You don't play any hard games>>12279994Name these "adult hobbies"
>>12280003>Exactly why rpgs will always be harder than any action game. Your "skills" don't mean shit and you will have to think.true when fighting certain bosses you really have to think and have a bunch of strategies and be ready to change as suddenly you get stomped and all your guys have low hp. one type of skill is hand eye coordination and timing, the other is creative strategy. certainly there are some strategy rts and rpg games that would have a learning curve for people only familiar with rapid button presses. not all rpg’s are tough but some are brutal. especially old pc dungeon shit, they didn’t even give you a map, you needed graph paper. it’s really limited in the thread this whole definition of ‘hard’ because if you give a steeet fighter ii player a command and conquer game he might be like uhhh and it’s too much for his brain, and vice versa. which is harder? that depends. they’re different kinds of hard.
>>12280003>I value my time.>hops from rpg to rpgapparently not
>>12279993you may play for fun, true, but never enough to make your own completion guide for fun
>>12280015Exactly, good post>>12280030I enjoy games with more variety and more content, shooting the same space aliens with a slightly different background and color palette seems pretty boring. This is why Parodius is the only good shooter, at least there is some variety and crazy shit happening in that game.
People saying RPGs are easy because you can read a guide or meta strategy is funny because it's like saying a riddle is easy because you can google the answer. Execution is only one kind of challenge and it's the least creative. Formulating strategies is far harder, which is obvious by how few people actually do it, for any genre of game, instead of running to the internet.
>>12280036Shmups pack more real gameplay into 45 minutes than an RPG does in 40 hours. They demand planning, execution, practice, and actual player skill...and if you care about scoring, the skill ceiling and replay value are effectively infinite.RPG “variety” is a shallow puddle stretched across dozens of hours. They’re easy, samey, and low-risk: most builds work, most strategies work, and choices rarely matter. As long as you can read, aren't severely under-levelled, and meet the gear check, you’re guaranteed to win. That’s why RPGs all take roughly the same time to beat, player skill barely factors in.In Gradius 3, progress is pure player skill. On stages like the Moai level, you survive only by precise movement, speed control, route planning, and flawless execution....every second, in real time. One mistake and the run is over. No menus, no characters as crutches, no mercy.In RPGs, difficulty is usually just tolerance: tolerate backtracking, menu juggling, inventory sorting, dialogue spam, rng rolls, and level checks until the game lets you win. Failure means doing chores longer, not playing better.Shmups demand actual player skill. RPGs demand the player endure tedious systems.
>>12280056Sorry for not being interested in playing 45 minutes of the same thing? I don't give a crap how "hard" your game is if I'm doing the same shit over and over with little variety. Might as well play pac man until the death screen.
>>12280056every shmup is the same game
This dude is STILL here. shmups are so unliked on this board and cannot ever maintain a general so he has to inject himself into any thread even vaguely mentioning RPGs and have a fucking meltdown about how easy they are. Get a fucking job youve been doing this forever.
>>12280060>Might as well play pac man until the death screen.nta That sounds like a great idea
>>12280040strategies as well as thinking on your feet, you don’t know what the boss might do and he’ll transform and turn into a giant fucking robo dragon and fire missiles, now you got one party member alive, so you need to revive someond before the next wave of missiles snd you might both be fucked if you don’t heal. tey the last boss in vay, what a pain in the balls. sometimes an rpg is a bigger ball pain than any genre there is, you play hours through a cave to fight a boss who wipes out your party in ten seconds. you level up a ton only to discover he just matches your upgrades and now he’s harder. because he’a a wizard cocksucker stealing your stats and magic.
>>12280040This. Every time I engage and dig deeper with people who say RPGs can't have challenge, I find out they're terrible at playing them. They're probably terrible at coming up with strategies even in action games, that and/or they only played Final Fantasy VII.
>>12277834You're massively exaggerating to the point of being deceitful
>>12280060>I don't want to do the same thing over and over again>voluntarily plays rpgslol>>12280072>they are terrible at rpgsyou can't really be terrible at rpgs unless you are physically or mentally handicapped. Similarly you never hear about anyone being "great" at rpgs. We can name great fighting game players, fps chads, great shmup players...but who is ''good'' at rpgs? Everyone with a pulse.
>>12280072final fantasy 7 can truly be called piss easy. the snes games were more challenging. they deliberately made 7 in a way to broaden the appeal and it got some of my friends who would never touch an rpg to at least play through midgar, either the demo or they bought it because of the hype and seeing tv teasers. it was designed to be a cakewalk so you’d see the story. and then the secret bosses and areas require mastery and you can seemingly never stop finding secrets. you can play it for a year and still be finding shit. vagrant story is harder. a lot of the psone japanese ones are the easy ones. hard rpg’s were on pc, and some sega genesis titles are among the most soul-crushing as well. 7th saga is kind of a bitch on snes but snes had easier ones. nes on the more challenging side. being more in the dark then made them harder.
wtf kind of shallow advice could a shmup guide even give you that you couldn't figure out yourself after one attempt? a game at least needs branching paths and secrets to be worth writing a guide for, a shmup you could jus sum up in a few protips
>>12280085wtf? ff7 basically played exactly like ff6ff4 was probably "harder" in that the random encounters were more brutal, but you sure as fuck didn't need a guide to tell you how to beat it
>>12280079>you can't really be terrible at rpgs unless you are physically or mentally handicapped.Huh huh>Watch Arino play DQ1>previously he boasted how he loved RPGs and how he played the RPG segment in the GCCX game til he was max lvl>1 vs 1 battle>Enemy deals 50 of dmg per turn on average>Arino uses his turn to use a 30HP healing herb Another example would be all the retards that misunderstand FF2 and FF8's systems and make completley wrong claims about the games and how "the games are retarded".Yeah, you can be terrible at RPGs. In fact, most people are, because their idea of RPG are JRPGs from the 5th gen onwards which don't demand of the player anything. Since all they played was something that didn't demand to get good, they, like you, can't even comprehend that it is possible. Your opinion with RPGs is in fact similar to the new generation with action games, like the young posters crying about Donkey Kong Country's difficulty because all they know was the newer games in the series.
>>12280092anon, this might shock you, but that's a tv show made for the purpose of entertainment, do you believe that wrestling is real?
I love posters in this thread selling RPG combat as “deep strategy,” yet it always becomes a color-coded checklist.Boss is red? Use ice.Boss buffs? Debuff.HP low? Heal.Boss glowing? Defend/Reflect.Mess up? No problem. Reload that save before the boss.Or Grind. Or buy bigger pants and more potions.Nothing is at stake.The “choices” exist, but almost all of them work. Builds work. Parties work. As long as you hit the level and gear check, the game guarantees a win. It doesn’t test how well you play—just how long you’re willing to engage with the systems.RPG combat isn’t hard.It’s procedural.>>12280086Calling shmups shallow or obvious only works if you’ve never actually played one seriously. Battle Garegga is the perfect rebuttal.Even for a basic survival clear, the game expects you to understand and manage an invisible rank system that actively punishes careless play. Scoring too well makes the game harder. Powering up too fast makes the game harder. Firing too much makes the game harder. Staying alive too long without dying makes the game harder.The optimal strategy isn’t “shoot everything,” it’s:Scoring just enough to earn extendsThen intentionally suiciding to lower difficultyManaging autofire rateDelaying power-upsConserving shotsPlanning deaths as a resourceYou’re not just dodging bullets...you’re playing the difficulty itself.
>>12280097tl;dr you can't write an actual guide for a shmup, at best you'd just be describing the level in writing which would be of no value to anyone
>>12280101shmups.wiki/library/Battle_GareggaGuide ^Live commentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPVBpjcrxE&t=1380s
>>12280086shmups have very complex scoring systems that take a long time to explain.
>>12280097>Mess up? No problem. Reload that save before the boss.People do play these games as no-death no-save challenges. Or low level challenges.
>>12280114>very complex>can be explained in 2 sentences
>>12280121explain how to kill inbachi
>>12280145Shoot at it until it dies.
>>12280152you got lucky
>>12280097>Mess up? No problem. Reload that save before the boss.Or Grind. Or buy bigger pants and more potions.Nothing is at stake.This is such a self-own. You're admitting you can't strategize, bash your head against problems, don't play RPGs with interesting character building or exploration, have never played an RPG ironman style, and have never played an RPG with level limits. It's weird to have such a strong opinions about a genre you haven't engaged with.
>>12280158>just play blindfolded bruh>pretend the floor is lava!Of course you can self-impose challenges to make any game harder. But I'm talking about a normal playthrough, which is already a big time investment since rpgs are like 30+ hours long.>you haven't engaged with the genre until you've done saveless, deathless, 100%, iron man speedruns and gotten top 3 on speedrun.com!I'm judging rpgs for what they are themselves, without external self-imposed challenges, which would make talking about difficulty impossible since you can come up with a million different challenge rules/runs.>. You're admitting you can't strategize, bash your head against problems, don't play RPGs with interesting character building or exploration,the strats are usually very obvious, the issue often is RNG and/or being under levelled.
>>12280168I'm not talking about personal challenges. There are RPGs where the level you can reach and the gear you can find is limited, so you can't grind past all challenge. There are ironman modes built into some RPGs.>the strats are usually very obviousBut you aren't even familiar with RPG strategy or character building or the concept of optimization against attrition. Your strategy is to throw more time at a problem to beat it, like chopping a tree with a hatchet. Why have an opinion about a genre you haven't engaged with?
>>12280175>>12280175>There are RPGs where the level you can reach and the gear you can find is limited, so you can't grind past all challengeYes I've beaten Chrono Trigger, FFT, and FF8, they each have limits to various growth options, yet are all piss easy.>There are ironman modes built into some RPGs.That's not the norm, but those are good, that's a start to making rpgs a bit better than they are and not so piss easy.>Your strategy is to throw more time at a problem to beat it, like chopping a tree with a hatchet. Why have an opinion about a genre you haven't engaged with?The problem is grinding is often a quicker, more reasonable and time effective method of progress than anything else.
>>12280191So you've only played children's jRPGs? Figures. Try Pool of Radiance. You can't level past 6 or 7.Grinding is not quicker. It's obviously quicker to NOT throw time at a problem, by reloading or grinding, but rather to solve it in the moment by using your head and the options provided by the game. I can probably beat any RPG much quicker than you can, because I understand the genre and can be far more efficient with my time.
>hehe you didn't do a very specific thing in a very small time frame at the end of this 30 hour game, no good ending for you baka
>>12277568100% this.all zoomers, stone slab, well worn axe, basketsome disassembly required
>>12279790Yes you do. You literally have NOTHING else to do. You don't have a life.>>12280228Yes, and? Maybe you should have been more observant. Maybe you should play the game again and try to do better. Or maybe you don't NEED that "best ending" at all. Why do you? More likely you're strawmanning, because few games are THAT exacting and punishing. Why are you willing to sabotage any enjoyment and emotional attachment you might get from a game in favor some some meaningless "100% clear :)" badge you can brag to fellow losers on the internet about?It's beyond pathetic that you can't just man up and play a video game without bawling your eyes over how "unfair" it was to you.
If you're the guy that jumped off the Floating Continent in FF6 without waiting for Shadow and then cried that you mIsSeD cOnTeNt, that is not the game or the developers' fault. That is just you being retarded. You clearly don't NEED that "content" if your time is so valuable you can't wait an extra minute for him to catch up.
>>12280168>But I'm talking about a normal playthrough,But we're not.
>>12278830This is not as true as one may wish it to be. I've seen official guides that give map directions that ignore the ingame compass rose, for example.
>>12280210I used to play almost nothing but RPGs—I’ve beaten BG2 solo and done Ironman party runs. Turn-based RPGs aren’t mechanically hard; they test system knowledge and RNG management, not execution. By contrast, Ys: Oath in Felghana on Inferno is harder than any turn-based WRPG or JRPG I’ve played, and far more engaging—because it demands real mechanics and execution, not just menu literacy and excel sheet management.>It's obviously quicker to NOT throw time at a problem, by reloading or grinding, but rather to solve it in the moment by using your head and the options provided by the game.In theory, thinking your way through a fight is faster than reloading or grinding. In practice, RPGs punish experimentation with long cutscenes, load times, slow combat animations, and heavy menuing. When a failed attempt costs 20 minutes, it’s often more efficient to grind for half an hour and brute-force the win than to retry and puzzle it out.
I'm going to make Mario for zoomers. Since zooms find classic game design errors and pitfalls so intolerable (what were the devs THINKING?), the game will feature the following modifications:1. No horrific time waste on death. If you touch a goomba and die, Mario plays an "ouch" animation* but keeps on going and the enemy is deleted. If you fall in a pit or lava, you respawn on the far side, skipping the obstacle. (*A setting will exist to disable the ouch animation if it's too upsetting).2. No lost/missed items. If you skip a hidden powerup, or a mushroom falls down a pit, it will be given to you automatically as you pass it.3. No missed content. Most superfluous side passages/pipes/etc will be removed. Any branches or alternate exists will be strictly deleted. Arrows will be shown over any remaining hidden passages and the player will be required to enter them to proceed.4. Linked guide. An in-game browser will hover over the top half of the screen, scrolling in realtime to help you with each segment of the game. It will be AI-enhanced so you can ask questions out loud as you play. It will also play calming soothing cooing noises if it detects you cursing or screaming at the screen and throwing your controller or breaking your switch over your mother's head.5. Free 1-month subscription to Nitro on 100% clearing the game.
>>12280250This is why Final Fantasy 1 is the single best JRPG ever made.1. Limited resources and spellcasts2. Tactical thinking, rewards observation and mental estimates rather than blind button mashing3. Fast but meaningful battle turnaround timeOne single unwise change of automatically redirecting melee whiffs on killed targets felled the genre in a single swoop.
>>12280210>my child's toy is better than your child's toyYou erred with this attempt
>>12280251You laugh, and yet...
>>12280256>tacitly suggesting duplo and lego are the same
>>12280256>plays piss easy games, mainly rpgs>projects and gaslights himself to think ALL games must be easy!!psychotic
>>12280079Yeah? Rpgs are one the genres with the most variety of things to do, you can explore the world on top of battling and building up your character, that's already way more than moving forward slowly in a linear stage shooting things without any exploration.
>>12280273>>12280273Enemies and effects change, but the decisions don’t. If you can read, match colors (cast ice on the fire boss!), and notice when numbers turn red, you’ll win. Almost every choice works because rpgs aren't testing player skill...simple player attrition while escorting you to victory.The rest of the “variety” is padding: backtracking through old areas, unskippable cutscenes, menuing, scrolling text, trivial fetch quests, and wandering around until the next dialogue trigger fires.There’s no timing, no precision, no pressure. You’re not asked to perform only just to comply. Press confirm, watch the animation, walk to the next town, rinse repeat.It’s not depth.It’s a padded routine, long, forgiving, and tuned so anyone who’s literate and has a pulse eventually wins. That's the essence of jrpg and wrpg, and many devs have stated as such, saying they intentionally make their rpgs easy so as to not hinder or gatekeep the narrative from the player.
>>12280287When did I say anything about difficulty? I said there is more to do than just shoot things and nothing else.
>>12280287I bet you'd be the kind of players who come back tail between their legs crying about "actually it's bad game design" if playing something as simple as Dragon Quest 2
>>12280240Yes I want it ALL on the first run, and I WILL pry every secret from the game with any means necessary. Cry more, I'm not replaying for a smidgen of content
>>12280291Difficulty is unavoidable, it creates content and context for everything else. It doesn't matter how much variety a game has if it all is piss easy, and just guides the player along without much effort. >>12280293>simple games bad?No.Quite the contrary I prefer games that are simple to play and approach but hard to master. Games like Doom 2, Gradius 2, Streets of Rage 2 are some of my favorites.
>>12280308I don't give a fuck about difficulty if the game has no content.Content > Difficulty I had more fun exploring the worlds of LSD than with any repetitive arcade game
>>12280352Watch and learn kid. https://youtu.be/U0SenfVdvxY?si=ROYx3yhKSJWRZCbb
>>12280294This is what I sound like when doing chores
>>12280396>2 hours video essay You can't bitch about any "YouTube thread" after posting this shit
>>12280410
I want to start playing more challenging games including harder jrpgs if there are any. ANy recommendations?
>>12280228what's the problem? you paid for the bad end, you get to see the bad end
>>12280250Execution is only one kind of challenge in a game. Your entire point falls apart here and leaves you exposed as a guide babby.
