How the fuck does someone get into this genre?
Every Troonhou game has a super smooth difficulty curve, both in the stages and with the difficulty options (easy, normal, hard, lunatic) you should start with one of them, 7 or 8.
Get a Famiclone multicart, it has some essentials including golden arcade era seminal ones like Galaga
>>12331584One is not so casual that they just happen upon the shmup
>>12331584Be born with autism
>>12331584Most STGs require you to play through the whole game in one sitting without making too many mistakes, which can be a very tall ask for a newcomer.It might be helpful to try playing one that instead splits the game into individual levels, where you only need to beat each level once and can try as many times as you want.The Touhou Project games Shoot the Bullet and Impossible Spell Card are good examples of this.
>>12331584Espgaluda. Play Espgaluda and beat it with 3 credits or less. Maybe try 1cc. That shit is great and will teach you the basics for sure.
>>12331584Dodonpachi is a good one to start with. just try to keep the chain going and mess with the shot modes as you go. fun game
>>12331584Get into the mindset of breaking a complex task into small steps to get better at individually, until they all come together into whatever achievement you were pursuing. That's probably the best way I can sum up what the genre is asking of you. If you don't find that fun it's alright, play something else.
>>12331584>how get into genrePlay them. A lot. On purpose. Shmups reward focused, regular play....if you’re serious, it has to become your thing.Get used to saying "I'm a shmup player" or "sorry I don't play jarpigs (jrpgs) anymore, I'm into shmups" etcWatch replays from strong players (even superplayers). You won’t hit that level, but aiming high teaches routing, positioning, and mindset fast.Join a community: Plaza Loop 2 is great; Shmup Junkies’ Discord is fine too better than Mork's tranny cord.shmups.system11 is kind of a dump, but still worth browsing for info.If you can talk with a strong player (like Synthricardo), do it—picking their brain accelerates everything.https://shmups.wiki/library/Main_PageThere used to be a shmupg rom pack somewhere... https://archive.org/download/shmupg-pack
Other than "play the gaem"(of course) and taking hints from replays whenever you feel that's appropriate(not all the time though that's boring imo) feel free to completely ignore the above post and any future reference of "shmupg".
>>12332292unironically best thread in this post ^
>>12332292>Shmups reward focused, regular play....if you’re serious, it has to become your thing>Get used to saying "I'm a shmup player" or "sorry I don't play jarpigs (jrpgs) anymore, I'm into shmups" etcSo it's like fighting games where you have to play regularly (like every day or every other day) or you'll lose your skills? That sucks
>>12332554Muscle memory helps but not really.You keep your knowledge of various techniques, and if it's about a specific game you might be able to recall the routing.Also >>12332296Unless you want these thread to turn into wannabe eceleb shitflinging and discord drama of course.
>>12332554>So it's like fighting games where you have to play regularly (like every day or every other day) or you'll lose your skills? That sucksNot as bad as fighting games, sometimes taking a break helps actually, you come back a month or two later and beat your personal best records.The point was if you're a beginner it's good to stay focused and build your fundamentals up, build your eyes (vision is key, where to look and where not to look, specially if you're doing bullet hells), build your hand precision and general strategies and get used to routing, start to love routing...then you'll see through the matrix
>>12332292>strong playerlolEver since his melty he fled the scene, even before that his sole distinction was almost 2all'ing flying shark and using a tas to do a "perfect" daioh replay that was still tens of millions behind wr.
>fear mongering shmupgdon't believe the fake newshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHOBgml-IdYhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-UsEvvnM6shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNC1yu88EKU
Don't say you weren't warned. It died out for a good reason.
>>12332584this guy is good too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvOKAhX_lp0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vrOmuV8I5o
>>12332580is that why he deleted the run? Wtf
>>12331584first step is quitting your job and stop bathing
>>12332554no, shmups are more like puzzle games in that it's hard to unlearn the core skills if you get rusty. fighting games and racers are harder to get back into the groove imo
>>12331584Start with Gate of Thunder. Literally made for noobies. Solid quality but very, very easy, which is not a bad thing. Look for other easy ones from there and slowly ramp up.
Just dodge the bad shit and shoot things. It's the simplest game concept there is.
>>12331584Avoid Gradius and 80s shmups. Play console shmups that interest you and make sure you have the continues set to high. Don’t feel compelled to finish a game if you make it nearer to the end and it gets too hard
>>12332651>start with easy onesWhy? Is it an ego thing? I never did this when I got into any other genre, I just played the game I thought was fun and wanted to get good at, from rts, fps, to fighting games.
>>12331584Play them for fun, for passion. Make sure you genuinely want to play them, rather than being forced to do so. That's the most important part.
>>12331584Most shmups require pretty high amounts of memorization for merely beating it without credit feeding.
>>12332764Based
Is raycrisis the most randomized level layout shmup?
>>12331584I don't really play SHMUPs made after the 4th gen, but Crisis Force is the game that really drew me in at first. There is a ship formation with the red weapon that auto targets shots onto enemies so you can focus solely on dodging and that's a good way to get started.
>>12332554I'd say they're more like puzzlers where they need a concerted effort to get into but the skills tend to stick after you gain them
>>12332702a lot of if not most shmups are going to assume a certain level of foundational knowledge from you without giving you a lot of room to develop those basic skills. It's not impossible to play a harder shmup first but if you start with something like a touhou on easy or whatever else it gives you the breathing room to get into things more reasonably. It's like riding a motorcycle without learning to ride a bike first
Play them until you find one that you like. Ignore turbo autists that insist you can only like one of 5 games designed for people who do nothing but play shoot em ups all day, because when the genre was actually mainstream, people enjoyed easy console shooters.
>>12331584Devil Blade Reboot is a good beginner SHMUP
>>12332590It "died out" along with the general fall of the arcade industry and low-budget developers in general. Keep in mind that shmups since like 1987 only sell 100k copies at most on consoles, they were never a popular genre. Whenever someone says "shmups become unpopular because of X" they're bullshitting.
>>12333197>when the genre was actually mainstreamThis never happened.>people played easy console shootersYeah, children played empty lightshows because they didn't know any better. Nowadays, we have actually good beginner shmups like Touhou or Devil Blade Reboot, there's no reason to waste time playing trash like Musha or TFIV that has literal nothing gameplay where nothing happens for the entire game
>>12333250>This never happened.SHMUPs were the number#1 most successful, most popular genre in Japan at least until between January 1987 and Frebruary 88 which is when DQ2 and 3 took the throne. Even if not #1 anymore they popularity was still very high until 1994-95.
>>12333250Case in point exactly. You can ignore these retards.
>>12333259There are exactly 4 shmups ever to sell 1 million copies. They are Gradius, Xevious, Twinbee, and Tiger Heli on the NES. All of these were 85-87. Gradius II in 88 sold just 110k. 100k is the highest sales count for most shmups since 1988.
>>12333263Touhou is not made "for people who do nothing but play shmups all day". This is a fact. It showers you in lives and bombs, has a ton of difficulty options from easy as a shit to super hard, and on easy/normal the game doesn't even get barely challenging until stage 4.
>>12333273The type of posters I'm talking about don't even like Touhou. You will see massive hate towards those games. All the best touhou games can be talked about on this board, but no one does.
>>12333279Why did you accuse me of being one of those posters then?
>>12333283Probably due to making abhorrent posts telling people not to play Thunderforce.
>>12331584play tyrianhave funplay LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSErealize you don't have fundon't play shmups ever again
>>12333314There is no "fun" to be had in Tyrian. All you do is jerk your mouse around haphazardly while taking five billion meaningless hits and taking fifteen years to kill bullet sponge enemies, every single interaction having no visual or audio feedback at all.
>>12331621>>12332590>>12332597>>12332669>>12333197>>12333263>>12333286>>12333314Hi Morky Schizo!
>>12333331>All you do is jerk your mouse around haphazardly while taking five billion meaningless hits and taking fifteen years to kill bullet sponge enemiessounds like skill issue, don't you praise japanese games for the very same things?
>>12333341They don't, and the fact you pretend otherwise is pretty telling. Not like I'd need that to know, though. As a basic assumption, it's true that pretty much 99% of all Tyrian shills have never played any other shmup ever.
>>12331584There is a ranked list of 8-bit and 16-bit shoot'em ups by difficulty. If you search online, you can find it. As someone who wants to get into it, look for the easiest games to 1cc, then try those. Yeah, 1cc might be considered shit by some, who play for score, but if you play for 1cc you at least have to learn the game. Once you 1cc a few games you can prove to yourself that you can do it, then you can explore the genre more confidently.
>>12331584Whatever you do, don't play the gay tranny shmups please.
>>12333773Yes, no euroshmups or touhou, got it!
>>12333349I've never seen actual shmup players discuss tyrian and I've been grinding shmups since 2015....
>>12331584>start game>play game
>>12333250If you're gunna play a thunder force, I'd suggest TF AC (great switch port, otherwise mame) or honestly 5 (via emulating the Saturn version). Extremely crowd pleasing and pleasant games even if they're easy.
>>12331584Just pick one you like, any one that you think is cool. Play it. Pick a few others you think are cool and alternate between them, Play good ones, not dog shit shitters though. I started by emulating Vapor Trail for the Genesis because I thought it was cool as fuck, no other reason. I still suck but have since beaten a handful of shmups.
>>1233158499% of shmups have you die in 1 hit but the enemies tank 50 shots before dying. Gay ass genre.
>>12333350Zanac-EX for the MSX is actually really easy. I never see it mentioned but it's one of the easiest I have played, I 1CC'd it on my second attempt. You have to understand the game "mechanics" so they say. All other version of Zanac are ball crushingly difficult.EX still managed to be OK though, lots of sprite flicker and it took over an hour to beat, maybe even 2 if I remember right, it was so long.
>>12334498Also the game runs almost constantly slowed down, it's like Aleste for the Master System but worse, that's one thing that made it so easy.
>>12333801This is too complicated, is there a youtube lets play for this?
I'm consistently getting to the end of Stage 5 (maniac mode) now. I think I need to practice stage 4 boss and stage 5 more to get the 1cc credit clear.I'm shite at bullet hells so wish me luck. Afterwards I'm going to do the arrange mode and 1.5 Max, modes and eventually Ultra???? or maybe play a mode for high score instead what does /vr/ think of mushihimesama?
>>12334493are you retarded? Tanky enemies are not the norm, but they are fun to fight
>>12334678I liek Mushihimesama.Also Ultra is a very huge step forward, just warning you that it's not only slightly harder than Maniac.
>>12333250Touhoutroons are so embarrasing. Imagine being a shmupfag and having to watch these estrogen-addled retards shit up every forum you visit.
>>12333250Absolute trash opinion. Touhou isn't even a shmup, it's a light show for troons.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/4090420/Karous/
just have swag
>>12332292>Join a community: Plaza Loop 2 is greatJust use the regular shmup discord, plaza is full of retards who don't play anything and just want to scream about niggers
>>12332292>PlazaWhat happened to the first one and who is the owner for the second one?
>>12331584You fly, you dodge, you shoot. It's just a game, man. You don't have to go all in on the score/1cc autism from the start.
I've decided that I'm finally going to focus and finish Vasara and Batsugun once and for all, since I can reach the final boss in both games without too much trouble.Then I'm going to raise the bar and try to 1cc Battle Garegga just so I can get on YouTube videos and say whatever I want in the comments, and if anyone responds with some shit, I'll say, "I 1cc Battle Garegga".
>>12337654How about you don't use discord and play some fucking shmups instead. How about that huh.
>>12331584You move the character to avoid the bullets, and hold the fire button and hope it hits the enemy above
>>12337710>1cc is an unrealistic autism goalShut up shitter cow>>12337654Shut up jew troon
>>12337978Just read whatever you want, it doesn't even have to be there
Start here
>>12337978Who are you quoting? Don't misuse the quote function.
>>12337818>someone openly admits to coming from a cultural war motivated radicalization discord>silence>just use this discord for people that actually play games>ummmm errrr sh-shut up!It's obvious what this place has turned into and why these threads are so shit compared to /v/
>>12331584Play Pink Sweets
So I went to plaza2 and they actually play and discuss shmups but can also talk freely without have to supplicate to politically culture libtard war takes
>Be me>Play PhalanxYou know this bland and boring little shitter of a game is sort of OK,
I got to the final boss (maniac mode) again but with no lives and only 1 bomb, so it was gg no clear.Funny though, I lost a life on stage 2 and one on stage 3 by ramming into the bosses unintentionally, while they were changing phases. If I didn't do that I might've gotten the 1cc. Oh wellwhat's everyone else playing?
>>12338094Neither play.And /v/ threads were good in the second half of 2024, but that was already 2 years ago.>>12338724On the bright side, if you got so far and only didn't win because of dumb mistakes that shouldn't happen normally, that means the clear is very close.>playing?No shmups active atm, unless you count the semi-regular TSS stuff
I'm liking Under Defeat but I'm getting slaughtered
If you really want to get into shmups, play a game or two you enjoyThen never, ever, ever interact with shmup threads or forums ever in your life
>>12338964Honestly this. Feel free to post progress or whatever here but I highly recommend tuning out most posts.
>>12338964>>12338981what is the fear with interacting with shmuptards exactly? I don't get it, this thread and others seemed pretty normal as far as 4chan goes>>12338724>maniac modehow hard is that anyway? compared to other shmups
I want to get into shmups, but most of them are 3:4, and i can't be bothered to flip my CRT everytime i want to play a shmup.Any recs for 4:3 shmups? Right now i'm playing Gradius.
>>12339014I ain't afraid of them, I just find them easily falling for hollow posturing(from the side of muh difficulty rankings/"proper" clears and arbitrarily drawing the lines between vertical/horizontal/danmaku, muh other genres bad and all that crap), "famous players"-fagging or eceleb-fagging, and in general showing only superficial appreciation towards the "feeling of playing shmups", perhaps a sense of belonging in an "elite" community, as opposed to enjoying the actual gameplay, or really anything else such as the artwork and the music - just normal player things as seen in other genres.All of this can be seen in *any* western STG community, there isn't a special good one "not like other girls" unless it's like, your 10-people friend group on Discord, which barely counts.>how hard is that anyway? compared to other shmups On the easier side of CAVE games, can be compared to doujin games, which is generally a little below or equal to arcade standards. Many traditional STGs instead are above or equal. Just my opinion though, it's very difficult to be objective on this pls understand, difficulty ranking is a meme and really just tells you about my own experience, you are likely to inflate games you haven't played/cleared, and underrate games you "beat" that by now are below your skill level.
>>12339032Salamander 2Gradius 2Giga WingSengoku Blade Blazing StarRadiant SilvergunSokygurentaiHyper DuelCaladrius BlazeZed Blade
I hate how Cave games run like shit, and the whole balance is based on the idea that the game will run like shit in the first place.Espgaluda 2 is the worst in my experience. The game already runs poorly, and its gimmick is to slow down time, so you basically have six different speeds in that game:>game running normally>slowdown>"bullet time">"bullet time" with slowdownbonus:>accelerated projectiles after you run out of crystals>accelerated projectiles with slowdown
>>12339039> only superficial appreciation towards the "feeling of playing shmups"I feel like that could be applied to arcade gaming as a whole for some people.There is a lot of this what matters is the clear/getting the score counter up and less how much that is actually in the proper intended bounds/experience of the game. (scorefarming exploits(there are obviously those that increase the skillcap, but those are not as common), safespots, unintended quickkills, glitches etc)Also the entire "watch replays if you cant figure out that part" removing some of that personal discovery from the game you are engaging with.Can honestly be compared to how speedruns seem to care more about skipping a part of a stage, because its quicker, rather than engaging with that part of a stage, to figure out how to traverse that within its bounds quicker.
>>12339039sounds like you're not a fan of good old fashion banter>>12339047slowdown is an issue for shitters who haven't bothered to route properly and get surprised when they can't FLAIL (like retards)sad but true!
>>12339054those high level ways of playing usually come after players "engaged" with the game like normies, and now seek more occult thrills.score chasing and speedrunning are their own unique type of experiences to chase and can be really fun, even if they look bizarre to normies/retards.1cc is the intended and normative way to "beat" any game with continues, anything else is cope though. Can't get around that objective reality.
i'd like to add that rpgs and jrpgs are the anti-thesis of shmups and good game design.
>>12339054>I feel like that could be applied to arcade gaming as a whole for some people.Sounds right in theory since many things aren't exclusive to STG, but in practice idk I don't see that happen too often with other threads on other arcade genres.>Also the entire "watch replays if you cant figure out that part" removing some of that personal discovery from the game you are engaging with.Wanted to bring that up myself, though I have a more moderate stance on it ironically enough.As in, I consider it fucking retarded to just tell somebody to copy somebody's else homework, 99% of people will learn nothing from this and you should know by experience unless you never were in school somehow. But if you are banging your head against the wall no matter how hard you think about it and really need a little hint, no one's stopping you.Can agree with the rest, you don't need speedrunner mindset to play shmups. You need some basic self-improvement/practice mindset at best.
>>12339014I'd put Mushi maniac under Daioujou White Label, but above Dodonpachi (1-all), maybe around Esprade 1cc
>>12339158>I'd put Mushi maniac under Daioujou White LabelHm sure. How about Black Label 1-ALL? > but above Dodonpachi (1-all)Yeah no offense but DDP 1-ALL is kinda just, know some STG basics and press B a lot.Mushi Maniac is defiinitely much worse than that.> maybe around Esprade 1ccHmmmmmmmm. Mushi Maniac still easier but I'm biased as it's one of the CAVE games I played early on, so when I was fucking shit at danmaku and still cleared it after enough "5cc first, 3cc second, 2cc, so close to 1cc" kind of training before I switched to more sophisticated tools or modern ports.
>>12339167>Yeah no offense but DDP 1-ALL is kinda just, know some STG basics and press B a lot.you get a lot of bombs but there are parts that will eat through a lot of bombs and can chip away your lives, like stage 5 and 6, stage 4 boss if you don't glitch it, etc
>>12331584you don't have to play the bullet hell and puzzle shooter meme games. there are plenty of other shmups to play. I recommend Tyrian, it's great.
>>12331657don't lie to the new playas. The genre is not no mistake, you have lives (aka hp bar and margin of error) and even in checkpoint games you can recover if you learn the recoveries in most games except the schizo ultra expert shit.you life bar is smaller by simply having a ton of capacity to dodge damage, but you still have a lot of resources to survive for longer and unique mechanics to get more hp in general.
>>12339308And bomba, and games with other kind of replenishable resources like hypers.
>>12339046thanks!
>>12339292>I have shit taste, you can have shit taste too, I don't even like shmups!shut up weirdo
I play this one
>>12332573>sometimes taking a break helps actuallyThe importance of taking a break cannot be emphasized enough if you're trying to get into the Shmup genre. Your ability to take breaks is just as important as dodging bullets.>you come back a month or two later and beat your personal best records.This guy is a high-level Shmup player, that's a serious break.
>>12339061Both are centered around grinding. They're more similar than they are different.
>>12339339Never got what's the point of this picture, sounds like projection if it comes from somebody who doesn't actually enjoy the games, or autistic dismissal of something you don't like by thinking nobody else could possibly like it. Never heard of general fatigue, burnout, anything that prevents you from temporarily enjoying something or reduces your performance despite your genuine appreciation/high skill level in a certain activity?
>>12339345Word–concept fallacy. JRPG grind is mindless repetition to inflate stats; shmup grind is focused practice to refine skill. Same word, different meaning...like calling mindless button-mashing and learning an instrument both “practice.”Sorry but jarpigs will never (ever) earn our respect.
>>12339356>Sorry but jarpigs will never (ever) earn our respect.Btw glorious Nippon doesn't give a shit about this performative rivalry western shmup shitters have.
>>12339361Most people here don't either, it's some autistic /vg/ shit trying to force itself into /v/ and /vr/ once the general died out, though I have seen both boards resist it openly enough.
>>12339361>>12339363>Japan has spokenYes this based salaryman spoke the truth 20 years ago, and jarpigs are still shaking & recovering.
>>12339365Both are grinding for hours on end, pretending one is somehow less of a waste of time because you developed a "skill" for beating a game is pathetic.
>>12339326>noooo tank-em-ups aren't STGs you have to fly around the bullets!Not everything has to be Touhou fairy game
>>12339365CEO of Based
>>12339369grinding stats in an rpg won't make me better at shmups, so ipso facto it's of way less value. specially since rpgs are shitty games.
>>12339392You're under the strange assumption that getting better at shmup is somehow a good thing. Literally the most useless "skill" in history.
I like both shmups and jrpgs
>>12339369shmups aren't grinding because you are getting better in hand eye skill while showing an interesting artistic expression by the interaction.It isn't the same activity repeated thousand of times.Shmups skills are generic as well, they encourage self development, solving issues, having self understanding and maturity etc. A lot of things could be considered useless by these same metrics like watching things with friends, talking to others, making art, going into a trip etc. Everything except eating, having a safe place, drinking and finding a suitable woman are the only useful things if we follow these same excerpts. in this regard you could say in an example that "coffee dates are useful because they get you to women", but this aspect is subjective and in general the right woman for a man genetically and in compatibility to have more kids in this brutalist ultra optimized approach wouldn't be a coffee date woman but one with more related interests or compatibility in personality and behavior, so showing artistic nuance, having similar interests in hobbies and showing certain personality traits through self understanding are the easiest and fastest way for someone to have a couple they are compatible with, thus their one conception capacity/high quality oriented way of reproduction (one man for one woman, this is biological by low sperm counts in humans) would make them show nuances through personal interests, thus shmups even in this regard show a person more oriented to a certain artistic expression, interests which let someone find people they relate to while encouraging becoming a better person.Thus in these regards shmups aren't useless and any art isn't useless, the utilitarian approach only comes from people so broken that they just accept self derision just to appease others, this worsens their life and ironically makes them more prone to making the incorrect choices which worsen their lives an of others.
>>12339403>It isn't the same activity repeated thousand of times.You have never played a single shmup in your life, like every other poser who write self motivational speeches about this genre.
>>12339395the thing is that they are a good thing.They better hand coordination, spatial reasoning, general strategy building and are a general artistic medium which encourages will to change society, how to overcome challenges in all places of life.>>12339407i have played them, it's a different activity by simply the variation, sometimes you make circles, other times you learn bomb routes, others how to put yourself in a safe space, how to enter and exit places quickly, you do all types of dodging (micro, macro, twitchy, pattern based), secret finding etc.It's a game genre with unique mechanics with games which ask different things even if there is a base, duh.
>>12339403okay but how is that related to playing spaceship games
>>12339395You are confused. Art and leisure are higher goods than “utility.” Utility is instrumental...a means to an end...usually buying us time for leisure and art, which are ends in themselves. Shmups are ends in themselves; being good at them is a high-tier good. Being a good doctor or chef is admirable, but it’s largely instrumental...done for external rewards like money. RPGs, by contrast, are low-tier leisure: more like pulling a slot machine or watching paint dry. Utility is the treadmill; art/games/leisure is the dance floor.
>>12339414it isn't as related directly to the genre but the effects you can get from playing them. it's just an honest even if gigantic essay to mock the ideas of "useful activities/useless activities" from people who don't do useful things on the first place, outside or inside shmups.
>>12339416this is actually a greatt answer
>>12339416External achievement can be its own reward and pleasure as much as artistic expression or pressing buttons, neither are general rules, these are merely characteristics of your own psychological type. Ideally people would like both, but realistically you will be pouring most of your energy into one while treating the other as instrumental.>>12339427Not really it's just doing the same mistake as the other anon, but in reverse.
>>12332584>>12332593buy an ad
>>12339345I don't care about the genres being talked about in this thread particularly but I can say for certain that grinding is one of the most mentally disengaging activities in this interactive medium. At least with JRPGs there's no grinding for extremely rare loot and it's usually just for levels, it's engaging the incremental numbers go up exploitable part of your brain but not the uncertain/intermittent reward part one.
>>12338724>what's everyone else playing?Mushi toohttps://streamable.com/bwrtr5
Also very technically speaking beating a videogame is an external achivement, just not one that's particularly valued over anything else, at leat compared to self-expression through any artistic form that's almost fully about inner exploration and ironically enough easier to monetize.
>>12331584>How the fuck does someone get into this genre?beside tips already given:- first and foremost tip, dont get dragged into autism from ppl who play (or say the play) this genre. There is a "guide" called "the full extent of the jam", you should give it a look, have a laugh, and delete it. Your objective should be to have fun, or to be specific, what u see as fun.- As newbe, pick a game u like visually a lot. Cute or cool dosent matter; horizontal or vertical; 2d or 3d; old school or bullet hell, or even euroshmup. Who gives a shit. Have fun. Use rewind, save states and cheats if you like. Who gives a fuck.- when u really fall in love with a game for any reason, and you wanna continue to play it even after a clear, only at that point ask yourself if you wanna try a 1cc, or turn up the difficulty
>>12339434No one’s pouring concrete for 12 hours or doing 10-hour brain surgery for free. Sure, there’s overlap sometimes...but that’s not the point, and it sailed clean over your head.The point is this: shmups don’t need “instrumental utility” to justify themselves. They’re valuable as such = high-skill leisure, like mastering an instrument or a martial art. RPGs don’t offer that. They’re low-tier leisure: flashy, passive, and repetitive...basically a slot machine with a storyline. One is mindful practice; the other is a mindless dopamine drip, pic rel.
>>12339456Nigger I seriously can't give less of a fuck about your forced genre rivalry. If you can't understand why one would play RPGs over STGs, or any other combination of genres, what I can say other than calling you deeply autistic. Oh yeah, I can tell you to go back to shmupg lol.
>>12339461I understand it perfectly. Some people have bad taste...they sink hours into junk entertainment, mash buttons, chase cheap dopamine, and call it depth. It’s not mysterious; slot machines have always had an audience.Other people gravitate toward demanding, skill-based pursuits. They like things that push back. They take care of themselves, choose challenge over comfort, and play shmups. JRPGs are passive consumption dressed up as effort; shmups are practice, discipline, and mastery. One numbs. The other sharpens.
>>12339456The few RPGs I played didn't need grinding desu. I'd agree if you were talking about MMOs though.
>>12339479Name a more useless skill than "memorized a game from 30 years ago"
>>12331584>How the fuck does someone get into this genre?
>>12339496That's a cover shooter.
>>12339486Even without grinding, most of the gameplay in rpgs is easy & passive: walking, backtracking, menu-juggling, inventory Tetris, NPC small talk, cutscenes, dialogue scrolling, and facerolling trash mobs that pose no real threat. It’s busywork masquerading as play. And it's usually padded and artificially prolonged because everyone expects 40+ hours of "run time" for a $60 rpg>>12339490reading your posts.
>>12339505Every shmup is just an autoscroller where you move a hitbox around the screen. The "gameplay" consists of playing the same thing for hours until you've memorized the exact sequence the developers planned for you.
At least you could at least write your own replies instead of letting ChatGPT write them for you.
Why do people say, that shmups are pure memorizers, when most bosses of shmups have patterns, that usually involve some randomness?Sometimes stages can also have certain parts, that are also random.
>>12339507>>12339508Damn son, you're drowning here. Out of your league.
Cause they don't play them, it's an excuse to dismiss the genre as "nothing but [thing that's not fun/doesn't require skill according to the poster]"
>>12339530>erm the game isn't memorization because exactly 1% of the game has a slight variance
>guys defending jrpgs sound retarded and just make up fallacies>guys defending shmups sound reasonable and at least have coherent thoughtsI guess playing skill-based games has other benefits! wow!
>>12339539You're a hard working genius for memorizing a three decades old game. The sad thing is you don't even do that.
>>12339540>you play old games, even 30 year old games! ha! got you!sick burn zoomer, but you're on /vr/ might wanna head back to /v/ or /vrpg/>you memorize gamesshmups, like good songs, poems or wise sayings are worth memorizing, unlike rpgs which have nothing worth memorizing about them.
>>12339546Three decades ago Japanese players perfected these games better than you ever will. This is why I say the genre is performative in the west.
>>12339552>that's why I sniff my own farts in this these threads.Interesting.>Some Jap 30 years agosaid jrpgs are trash that anyone can beat without skill, while shmups are for skilled players who love a challenge, we know.
>>12339552This is simply cope. World records are not the be-all end-all to playing shmups, just as speedrunning is not the be-all end-all for other games (and god help you if you think otherwise). The point is to have fun and to push yourself, if you feel like it, with a skilled exercise in an exciting game. As for other activities, hobbies are not exclusionary nor are they zero-sum.
>>12339567>the point is to spend hours upon hours grinding the same exact thing just to be not even in the top 3000 best players in JapanWhat a sad thing to strive for.
After playing shmups for a few years it's really hard to play games that have a lot of downtime and dead air, or extremely easy unchallenging gameplay. I'm forcing myself to play some rpgs now and oh man is it brutal torture mindnumbing hell. Ironically I'm having a lot more fun with a visual novel Spirit Hunter NG than the more traditional crpgs and jrpgs I'm trying. At least the visual novel is more efficient in its delivery of the story and isn't padded with fake & mindless gameplay like typical rpgs.
>>12339572you grind your whole life not to have the same amount of money, popularity, or pussy of the top 3000, let alone 3 million humans, after all. Life can be a sad thing if you look at it like that, you take your fun where you can.That sounds like a hang-up you have for not being good enough when you should be trying to enjoy yourself and being bitter at others improving.
>>12339592*not being bitter at others
>>12339572>why read classic literature if someone already read it before you?Hmmm true.>why learn piano if you'll never beat BeethovenAgreed>why play jrpgs and rpgs when they basically play themselves and your input is irrelevant100% good point>why learn to ski well, if you'll never compete in olympics?Truth nuke>Why lift weights and get ripped if Arnold did it better 30 years ago?TRUKE>why play shmups well if some Jap played it better 30 years agoIn my case, I follow the jap superplayer who has the WR in my shmup, and he follows me on X! he encouraged me to keep trying and said more people should play the shmup.... so I don't want to disappoint sensei and have to continue :)
>stop playing shmups they have no value outside of gaming!!!>stop playing shmups, you'll never beat the World record!!>stop playing shmups you should bang dumb whores instead!!!>stop playing shmups they are just memorizers, play jrpgs instead!!!Get behind me satan!
>>12339608What's Satan's favorite shmup?And Jesus's?
>>12339610>SatanDeathsmiles 2>JesusSonic Wings 2 or
>>12339614Sounds about right for Satan.lmao that filename
>>12339614>>12339610>>12339615Christ is King.Satan is a f@g probably plays Tyrian (with cheats)
>>12339617tyrian is disproportionately shilled by trannies, it really makes you think.
>>12339597Western players have had decades to reach the level of casual Japanese players, they simply never do because the western fanbase for this genre is fake.
>>12339624It's still better than amateur hobbyist jank like the Touhou series.
>>12339661No, not really, no. For one it plays like an arcade game.t. certified Touhou unenjoyer
>>12339671Pretty low bar there, Touhoufags are the fucking worst.
>>12339737I said "unenjoyer" THOUGH.But hey, I can at least recognize the fact it keeps the arcade philosophy intact, unlike euroshitmups.
>>12339538>>12339530the thing is that the "memo" is simply position based. unless you are a machine you will get similar but different patterns which make it have constant execution.all videogames have static components, shmups just has static rng by positioning, so it's logical and predictable while asking you to do a ton of different things by your inherently human positioning causing you to have variations of types of dodges (mixed with real rng to cause even more variation on your positioning rng, 25% rng in a lot of games).>>12339658they don't do it because they simply play mindlessly by anti arcade grooming, so most of the time people don't feel a social incentive by not being able to show it to others or just want to be seen as "likable" by playing things in socially accepted forms of western single player game competition like speedrunning, not scoring (aka shmups are in a social context where most people who would do this simply don't care, and the ones who do simply are too related to the japanese player base people relate them to the japanese/general one rather than just the western one).>>12339614this is true, just not gunbird 2 for jesus, truxton 2.
>>12339938aka shmups have rng, it's just that it's possible to predict what to do even if the inputs change completely. they give logical answers to totally different questions in form and function aka you can develop an skill to be better at playing.
>>12339580Which JRPGs have you played? Because most of them have gameplay, but people usually get overleveled and then complain that the game is braindead. This happens a lot with Dragon Quest, which is perhaps the best example of a game that players consider brainless and grind-based, when you can finish most Dragon Quests with fairly low levels just by playing the right cards in battles and optimizing your chances.
Clips?https://streamable.com/j7256o
>>12339530>Why do people say, that shmups are pure memorizersIn some extreme cases, they really are. But people don't say that they are "pure memorizers", but only that they are overly based on memorization, which is true for a considerable portion of shmups.This is easy to understand. Shmups are auto scrollers. In some of them, the position of enemies was determined by the level designer, and they always enter the screen at exactly the same moment. In many cases, these enemies also follow the same script, and often they have a predetermined pattern of projectiles.Even though there is some variation due to your position, the types of enemy attacks, and some RNG elements, the overall situation is quite predetermined.To make things even "worse", some shmups have evolved to the point where you don't really need to aim at enemies, your shots cover a large part of the screen, and you are kind of choosing entire areas where you will concentrate your firepower. This allows you, as a player, to severely reduce the entropy on the screen.In games where your shooting power is pathetic, like 1942, the game is 99% pure chaos. It's all based on RNG and you're constantly reacting. I'm not saying this is a good thing, because 1942 isn't a very good shooter in the first place, but it's a good example of how low firepower gives enemies much more room to start generating chaotic situations where pure memorization is no longer that valuable.summary: the action in many shoot 'em ups is fairly predetermined, and you as a player have the ability to make it even more predetermined. Because of this, memorizing things gives you enormous advantages, much more so than in most other game genres.
>>12340142>>12340142the thing is that these enemies in most shmups don't always appear at the same positioning, and if they do you aren't in the same position as a previous run, so you will have to dodge a similar but different dodging challenge.the high fire power in other shmup causes a more boss first stages second aspect which is unique and worsens the stages in exchange of better bosses, but this isn't about the genre as a whole but simply games with other strengths than stage oriented shmups (and a lot of these games with huge firepower have balanced strong enemies or a ton of them, so the stage design is there, except in truss because that series has a ton of issues in balancing his stages)Shmups aren't as memorizers (even if by being deep they need some memo) and it doesn't give more benefits than other deep video game genres, it's simply that there's well designed games and games which aren't. obviously they are much more memory heavy games but this is a design trend on his own.The real crux of this issue is that people don't know a lot of videogame depth so in most games by a lack of challenge thus real assesment of efficient strategy and survival people don't need to try to survive, thus the game seems not memo when in fact it is, shmups by being extremely related to arcade games which had this high difficulty and practice oriented approach simply showcase this more than other video games made for the console market which don't have the right difficulty to test these systems, thus the memo aspects aren't recognized.Shmups are as memo as other video game genres, it's just that arcade shmups have the difficulty necessary for the memo aspects to be recognized.
>>12331584You have to spend all day memorizing. It's like learning piano, except it's a useless skill. Wait. I take it back. It's just like learning piano.
Once you know the fun of shmups or piano (or anything deep and skillful) you can't go back to having retarded mindless fun like with jrpgs, bingo or slot machines
how did you guys pick your MAIN SHMUP?why isn't everyone just playing the best shmups perpetually? I'd say Dodonpachi, Daioujou, Ketsui, Futari, Mushi 1, Crimzon Clover, Strikers 1945 2, Gunbird 2, Rayforce, Giga Wing, Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga, Armed Police Batrider, Garegga, etc etc...there's about 10 really top tier shmups I don't get why people aren't just playing one of those forever
>>12340847you don't pick it, it picks you.> Dodonpachi, Daioujou, Ketsui, Futari, Mushi 1, Crimzon Clover, Strikers 1945 2, Gunbird 2, Rayforce, Giga Wing, Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga, Armed Police Batrider, GareggaThose are great 10/10s but really anything can be a good main shmup to grind as long as it has good scoring or infinite loops
>>12340064I have this unregistered but recorded chain because I fucking died in the end I guess.Though I'm pretty sure it did not beat my chain PB(unrecorded but registered) that I got in a different run.https://streamable.com/2evwma
>>12340847Sometimes it's just fun playing something for survival - and occasionally there's a neat idea or gimmick, or a good boss fight in there that makes the journey worth it. See: Strania, a great game that I've played a lot of but wouldn't call it one of my main games, I just play it because it's kino.I have a couple of games I usually come back to but usually try a bunch throughout the course of a year.
>>12340847I don't have anything like that in any vidya genre I played.Taking my 1cc attempts and occasional attempts at doing it with more score or other ships/characters.
>>12340847>there's about 10 really top tier shmups >>Only 10 Lol. Lmao even.
>>12331587TH08 is the best in that regard, Aproachable hard mode, not so easy beat with continues, fun patterns, good scoring, and a boss that literally teach when to look at your ship and when to look at the boss
>>12331584There are a lot of good entry-level games to the genre. As some anons said, the Touhou games are great for teaching the basic skills without the stress of learning complex routing.If you have a PS4/Switch, highly recommend the M2 collections and ports of all the shmups they've done. They all have a lot of QoL that make the games a lot easier to learn. The Gradius and Darius collections are on Steam too, they're the best way to play them. Darius Gaiden is fun, easier, and a lot more forgiving than some other classic horizontal shmups.Also, Crimzon Clover (World Explosion) and Blue Revolver have really good easy modes and a lot of tools to help you learn.Also, always try to check the shmup wiki, a lot of games have bullshit you can't figure out without looking it up, a must if you're playing a game with a ranking
Is DoDonPachi Daioujou a good starting point? I just ordered the PS4 port of the game by M2. I'd resort to emulation, but I can't figure out how to fix the stuttering issues. So my options are console ports or the MiSTer FPGA.
>>12342081It's a difficult place to start.
>>12342082I figure that would be the case. I was already getting into DoDonPachi but my computer crashed on me, and when I booted it back up, I started experiencing stuttering issues across all my emulators. So I can't even try out other shmups that didn't have console ports unless I figure out how to fix this issue.
>>12331584Play Thunderforce V and cum your brains out.>https://youtu.be/nYVuUQzMF3E
>>12342081If you enjoy playing it, yes. It doesn't matter as long as you like it.Also Donpachi has a really smooth difficulty curve, the first stage is babby tier. it doesn't really pick up until stage 4/5. Stage 3 is really nice.
>>12332292/Thread
>>12332292>Watch replays from strong players (even superplayers). You won’t hit that level, but aiming high teaches routing, positioning, and mindset fast.Didn't beat the game
>>12342591>ragebaitI agree nonetheless
>>12331584I play until I get hardstuck and then I increase the lives/continues by one until I get hard stuck again and repeat the spoilered until I beat the game. Beating a shmup on your last life/continue is pretty thrilling.
>>12342214Based though I advice to at least also play TF III first so the nostalgiawankery in V hits proper
>>12342887You can also play IV. It's harder but it's possibly the best shmup ever made. If you like it more, play it.
Stop copying our lore into your discord servers troons
>>12340847I honestly just want to play them all. Doing a credit feed sucks though, imo you should 1cc in some capacity before you consider the game ready to pass over unless it genuinely sucks
>>12340847That's retarded... That's like getting into films and watching only one movie forever
>All these posts about how playing this genre is somehow high-brow personal achievement equal to poetry or somethingThis is why I won't play this dumb genre, no other fans or genres generate walls of text to justify their genre or game. It literally sounds like coping with wasted time. I don't hear shooter fans gush over how arena shooters really up your reflexes and you just gotta try it! I don't think I've even heard fighting game fans try and say they're actually becoming a better person by playing fighting games.
>>12340142>the position of enemies was determined by the level designer, and they always enter the screen at exactly the same moment. In many cases, these enemies also follow the same script, and often they have a predetermined pattern of projectilesThis also applies to almost every game ever made
>>12343798>I don't hear shooter fans gush over how arena shooters really up your reflexes and you just gotta try it! I don't think I've even heard fighting game fans try and say they're actually becoming a better person by playing fighting games.Have you tried playing the games in those genres that aren't shit and actually take effort, because the discussion of both of those are typically dominated by retards
>>12343798
>>12343875True.
>>12343875
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrJvfedZn78
>>12331584Try playing some. Play ones made by different developers. Play ones in different subgenres. If you don't enjoy any of them, then shmups are probably not for you.If you're looking for good casual picks, try Tyrian 2000 for DOS, or Gun-Nac for NES. You don't have to jump straight into bullet hell games like Touhou or Ikaruga.
>>12343953Danmaku and Touhou in particular is a great place to start
>Gigawing>Gunbird 1 + 2>Dodonpachi>Deathsmilesthere.the only ones you need.
>>12343957Sure, if you wanna gel filtered. I enjoy Touhou, but it's a bit much for a newbie.
>>12343932
I love the Genesis port of Slap Fight. I don't know what it is about it but everything I do feels like it matters, some SHMUPs feel like it's autopilot RULE OF COOL and then you die to a stray bullet you couldn't see. Slap Fight encourages experimentation and makes you feel more skilled each run, and the base ship is viable with just a couple of speed upgrades. Great great game. It's like if Gradius were vertical and not horribly brutal.
>>12344276>Troonhou is a great place to startYes it's better than some other computer Shmups like Major Stryker, Congratulations.
>>12344335what kinds of genres/games/consoles would philosophers play?
>>12344650Socrates, puzzle games, puyo puyo or Twinkle Star Sprites. SMT but always choose the Order.Plato, VNs with weird / overly complex systems (Fate and stuff) and rpgs with masturbative gameplay loops / systems, maybe rouglites.Aristotle, Tactics games, rpgs with a lot of hoppium in their themes, also Katamari
>>12344276i 2ho is too much OP would cry trying any classic horizontal shmup lmao.
>>12343798You ignored all the autistic screechers who attacked our genre and asked for its "utility" or external value outside a leisure hobby. Curiously they never ask the utility or point of playing fighting games or even low IQ jarpigs....
>>12343796>Shmup Gaming is like passively watching tvNo retard, shmups aren't passive like jrpgs or movie watching . It's more like learning an instrument, a language, a sport, chess etc, you can be fluent in one thing well or try dozens and be shit at all of them.
>>12343796Main shmup doesn't mean only, it means having one you keep playing to get gud at longterm
>>12344276Touhou is a lot easier and more forgiving than 99% of classic arcade shmups.You get multiple difficulty modes, a practice mode, a tiny pixel-wide hitbox, bombs, deathbombing, no Gradius syndrome, no hard to collect powerups, no tiny or ultra fast bullets.It's the perfect series to get started.
>>12344229I need a lot more, even the bad ones.
>>12344976Getting good at a shmup automatically makes you better at the rest of the genre in general. You develop a sense for it.
>>12344976>It's more like learning an instrument, a language, a sport, chess etc, you can be fluent in one thing well or try dozens and be shit at all of themDoing dozens of these things is good for you.
>>12345078Sure but I'd clarify and say getting good at a shmup makes it easier and quicker to learn new shmups. You won't be good at them until you start routing them and working at them too
>>12344976>SPACE INVADERS IS A SPORTPlease shut the fuck up.
>>12345086It's better to get proficient at one shmup so you know what it takes, what getting good looks like, and develop strong fundamentals in the process. Then dabble in other shmups.If you treat shmups superficially, just hopping from one to another like flipping through tv shows or jrpgs, you won't get the genre at all
>>12332292This. I got my shmup tattoo yesterday. God I love shmups.
>>12345095It will teach you the subtleties of that one particular game, but playing a handful will expose you to different situations and play styles and make you better overall. Anyways these are video games and the point is to have fun. In fact treating the games like this I think actually greatly detracts from what they are. You can just replace everything with just square sprites then and no sound. That would be boring though, even good shmups I hate playing because I don't like the music or art style. A good shmup is like a work of art but also a thrilling experience. Like Truxton.
>it's the /vg/ kids still forcing their jrpg vs shmup memeAlso funny they still insist on focusing only on japanese rpgs as if wrpgs were reflex-based
why are shmup haters posting here?
>>12345097kek
>>12345103> muh funYes but some fun takes more effort and has a higher payoff. Think about reading literature versus reading AI slop. Think about going out and finding a hot girlfriend versus beating off in a tissue. Think about a hunter who has trained archery versus a guy throwing rocks at cans in his backyard. There's retarded low effort "fun" but there's also high effort fun. Shmups really shine when you are actively getting good at one, specially for scoring or hard survival challenge, while flailing and credit feeding might also be "fun" its a very shallow sort in comparison
>>12345117Western devs still can't make a decent combat system in any genre besides fps. So wrpgs are "into the trash" they go, nevermind all the western propaganda, horrible writing they inevitably get infused with these days.
So many good games in this genre that aren't gay and have voice training tranny fanbases. Good shmups like thunderforce 4, blazing lasers, gradius gaiden, darius gaiden, tyrian for example.
>>12345314>TyrianNon player fingers typed this post.
>>12345314spongebob rollercoaster post
>>12334963>everyone who disagrees with me is a trannyHi Shitthetic!>>12335417Thunder Force IV is unironically a light show for spongebob rollercoaster millennials where 99% of the game is total nothing happening and the graphics and music are meant to make up for it
>>12343953The concept that you can go from Tyrian to develop skills which can prepare you for harder shmups is completely absurd. The entire way you play the game, from using mouse controls, to the retarded inertia, to having to tank most hits because they just can't be dodged, to having to buy better weapons to spam dps because tons of attacks are straight up unavoidable, it's completely contrary to every other shmup ever made.
>>12339661Tyrian IS hobbyist jank. The entire game is a bunch of slapped together random shit with no thought or cohesion behind it whatsoever. Touhou has an infinitely higher amount of effort, passion, and care in almost every single facet of fundamental gameplay, sound design, graphics, and visual design than Tyrian.
>>12345361>spongebob rollercoaster millennialsToo obvious, zoomer.But yes TF4 is a bit overrated when 3 and 5 are the best ones
>>12345404>to having to tank most hits because they just can't be dodgedWay to expose yourself, nooblet. High-level tyrian is all about using twiddles and ammo weapons to phase through shit and kill the unkillable, so to speak.But no one here played high-level tyrian, you fuckers just played 2 minutes on hard mode and called the game bad.And before you say anything, I've been playing "proper shmups" for fucking decades now and got my fair share of fun from them. I still enjoyed Tyrian, because I didn't have the desire to shit on it for not being japanese.
>>12345475If it was japanese I would shit on it ten times as hard.
>>12345475>no you don't understand. It's not about TANKING undodgeable its. It's about using the secret combo system the game doesn't tell you about in any way shape or form to just kill the enemies before they fire the undodgeable bullets!Wow. That sure makes it better!
These threads simply are not very good
>>12345503Feel free to leave
>>12345475>I enjoyed TyrianPlease leave and never come back. I saw a Tyrian thread on /vrpg/ you can go there and discuss your shitty taste.
>>12345485>the undodgeable bullets!Anon...lately i get the impression that most people who call games shit on this board haven't actually played them, this is no exception.>>12345684i'm not here to shill tyrian, i'm here to call you shit for being close-minded. just happens this was the subject. I'm aware there's some other fag who actually pretends it's the best game ever, fuck that guy too - i'll call it a fun but no further
>>12345930Here's a proper example, just because I don't believe in arguing through sheer vitriol.A good strat is to use post-it mines over an enemy's back, so they move backwards for heavy damage through the enemy. of course you might need the phasing to accomplish this.Totally not something you'd do in a shmup, right? EXTREMELY LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER. Direct example: If you ever play Gradius Gaiden, you'll realize the limit shield is the best powerup by far. Using it, you can also phase into enemies, then do stuff like instakill bosses by gathering all your options into their core. In high-level play, preparing limit in advance on the powerup bar is a big part of the strats.Still not convinced? Cho Ren Sha, one of the pillars of the shmup genre, gives you full godmode during bombs. The game never tells you this, but you ship actually deals extreme damage while colliding with enemies, meaning that the best thing you can do while bombing is hovering over enemies, then leaving before the bomb runs out.So, are you going to call that game a fake shmup too? It never tells you about the ramming...
>>12344721It just so happens that I enjoy Touhou and hate Gradius and R-Type. I guess I'm just bad at shmups.
>>12345361>where 99% of the game is total nothing happeningWut. Confirmed for having never played the game.
>>12345149shmups and rhythm games attract really committed schizos for some reason. i noticed the same seething in the jay's rhythm game threads
>check shmups thread>some rpg troon was being raped and humiliatedVery nice
>>12346093Thunder Force 4 does suck, but 'nothing happening' is definitely not the reason for it. My advice - just don't engage posts like this. It's clear that these people are either trolling or actually idiotic
>>12346219TFIV is absolutely amazing, I have no idea how anyone can say it sucks. That game is incredible on every level.
>>12335417Everything these days is "slop" or "for troons". I feel like we used to have more varied insults.
>>12346282It looks and sounds amazing, but the weapon balance is ass compared to TFIII, and even TFV is you exclude free range. The fucking snake is the best weapon for some reason. Also, it has really bad difficulty design - a thoroughly easy game with a bunch of gotcha moments.
>>12345404>mouse controlsFUCKING retard alert. What kind of dumb shit would use the mouse instead of the keyboard, assuming they don't have a joystick. Mouse controls are only there so poortrash who didn't own a joystick could play 2 player.
On topic of shit games just don't tell you about, I've been practicing Thunder Dragon 2 lately.Lovely game, but player 1 is always slow/spread and p2 is fast/laser. On paper this means there's a playstyle choice when you'd first start the game and pick your side.Haha, no, game is entirely balanced around the spread. Though p2 is mega based because he becomes the guy who focuses on the (plentiful) minibosses while p1 clears the screen...p2 is also unplayable on its own.Game obviously won't tell you this. If you put a coin in the p2 side without a buddy, assume an automatic loss. You played yourself.
>>12337707There is no owner. But there are mods. If you search hard enough you might find a member in STG rev or other shmupcords. The first one got nuked cuz ricardo had a meltdown over gacha talk in off topic. specifically blue archive.
>>12343798i just like shmup's because i only get 1 hour of video games a day and modern games are all 40+ hours long.didn't read the rest of your gay post.
>>12345407Tyrian doesn't reach the level of hobbyist jank until episode 5, when some retard made a free update years later after the artists were gone.Tyrian is recommended by people who don't play very many shmups and are comparing it to other crappy computer shmups. It heavily references games by Compile, just play the real deal.Zun's series of 20 fart-sniffers look like shit to anybody who has ever seen a real video game. Real games exist, play them instead.
>>12346306Literally none of these criticisms make sense. It would be more reasonable to say that about 3, not 4. Also 4 is not easy, it's significantly more difficult than 3. The only criticism I can see that makes sense is saying the desert level at the beginning is kind of slow, but it has a different vibe, it's kind of slower paced with some jazzier music. Still lots of fast enemies though and the boss is one of the harder ones in the game, at least in the beginning. The only criticism I have about IV is that the boss on air raid can be cheesed but you need to plan ahead for that. You go to the upper right safe spot and use the free way. Even if you do that it still takes a while to kill him and can be risky if you aren't careful.
>>12331584You just play them until you learn, same as any game. Yeah they're hard but if you put 10 hours into one you'll be good at it.
>>12346521P2 is very playable on its own. What are you trying to say? Most shmups have harder/easier ships. The highest scoring replay video we have is with P2 iirchttps://youtu.be/AlE73Yn8qIA?si=yLU-49FurpahdluP
>>12346721Very impressive video, I thoroughly enjoyed watching it, though it's not the level of play I had in mind. I guess adding some buzzwords like 'for the average person' or whatever would have helped, but that's my bad.Still, it's my fault for not being clear, I do think that a random shmup player picking TD2 up will make it way further with p1 than with p2 until they practice a lot, but that's not what I wrote in my post, so you are fully correct.
>>12346768The main reason I liked playing as Junis was her charge shot effortlessly taking care of annoying bosses like these.
>>12346721I never understood (amongst other things) the concept of milking bosses that are clearly not meant to be milked.It's just chasing higher numbers, doesnt matter how it is achieved and how little it resembles sensible gameplay.
>>12346781She's pretty great at that indeed. You beat the route B final boss in seconds too.
>>12346787Milking is very very intended. Specially in Thunder Dragon 2 the amount of secrets and milks they added is very deliberate. As long as Milking bosses is risky, takes a lot of skill/practice and isn’t mindless sitting in a safe spot style then it’s a very legit scoring option in old shmups, even in newer shmups too.“Chasing numbers” is fun when it’s skill based and mechanically challenging, shmups have the best scoring out of any genre and milking can be great too
>>12346721>Most shmups have harder/easier ships. Yes, but it's nasty to base it on the player side, and to lock p2 to the harder one to boot.I seem to recall there's another shmup that does something similar, but with p2 having a clear advantage this time instead of being harder. Ring a bell for anyone?
>>1234681520 minutes of milking the 3rd stage boss with the bosses graphics glitching out halfway through the milk is intended?
>>12346837Based NMK
>>12346721>start video to check where you can milk>notice video length >"huh? Is this multiple run attempts?">stage 3 boss begins>"oh well fair enough, I wonder what's so weird about this milk>"...">"so it doesn't have a timer or anything?">look at the graphics and background Jesus fuck why
>>12346837The milk isn't very entertaining, but aside from that this game is pretty cool scorewise. It has stuff like extra waves if you speedkill enemies, along with the shootable items and intro text.
>>12346886Yeah TD2 is so good, game is insanely good. And that long stage 3 milk isn't necessary for getting a fat score it's only if you're going for world record tier numbers desuAnd for shmup world records people have milked bosses for hours, 20 minutes is rookie numbers
>>12346902What the fuck man
>>12339046>>12346768>Sengoku Bladejust started playing this, thought something was seriously wrong with my controller or the emulator, as the input seemed delayed.I've measured it and it's 3 frames of lag (for comparison arcade Gradius has no lag at all, Famicom/NES has 1 frame of inherent lag i believe).Apparently it is accurate to the hardware as early Psikyo games all had such high lag.Guess I'm playing this one with run-ahead.
>>12347039I'm kinda used to Psikyo games so I don't even notice
>>12331587>TroonhouLemme guess. You are black.
>>12346325The mouse allows you to move more easily than the default controls and 99% of people recommend playing with it, it might as well be the "real" controls.Then again there wouldn't be a discussion on this at all if Tyrian was a real videogame with actual balance and thought put into it, sadly it's just a toy so who cares
I admit shmups are really hard which leads me to ask: What's the point of playing shmups when you could be investing that sweaty time in something valuable?
>>12347114same as any other game. challenge is part of the enjoyment.unless your thing is sports or the gym, hobbies won't make a real difference for life quality. the only wrong one is something that you don't have fun with....unless, your question was how to cope with difficulty? This one's entirely personal. Work on your anger management. Personally I have no issues losing, whether it's shmups or some multiplayer game. If you can't handle losing, genuinely go meditate more, or look up other shit, idk i'm not a psychologist.
>>12346565i have the whole day for gaming and i'd still rather play arcade gamesthe 4000 hour long console goyslop is filled with braindead talking and fetch quests
I don't know, Astro Warrior and Raptor are the only ones I've spent a significant amount of time on and they're fairly simple examples, nothing like the bullet hell stuff shmups have become.
>>12347114i draw, make music and play a couple instrumentsplaying hard games doesn't interfere with my other valuable pursuits, i do it because it's my preferred entertainment whenever i take a break
>>12347114Why do people demand shmups justify themselves lol I never see people demand jarpigs, fps or fighting games to be justified
>>12347436The council of millennial spongebob rollercoaster youtubers has decided that shmups are heckin simple boring trash, okay chud?
>>12347436What's funny is shmups are instantly fun, even when you suck and can't progress skillfully just flying around shooting stuff is fun, even while credit feeding.While jrpgs and wRPGs take hours and hours of introduction, dialogue dumps and tutorial sections before they "get good"
>>12347442as a hopeless shmup nerd, i'm sorry, but this is delulu. first, there's an ocean of awful shmups to wade through. unless you know what's good, your introduction to the genre can be dogshit.next, getting a random person to play a shmup is usually spectacularly horrible. say what you will about rpgs, point and clicks, gachas, whatever else is popular with the masses - the one thing tying them together is ease of access. unless you specifically find the fucker an incredibly easy shmup, the most common reaction is death within 5 minutes and whatever excuse follows. you give it to someone who plays real games, they're likely still dead, just in 10 min.this isn't because shmups suck, it's because of willful ignorance. the same reason your grandpa doesn't want to learn how to use the internet. people just suck, and it's easier to call the thing they refuse to touch bad than to give an actual attempt.
>>12347498>popular with the masses - the one thing tying them together is ease of accessyeah this is why they suck asssame with every other forms of mainstream media btw
>>12347498Gonna disagree. Finding good shmups is very very easy with a simple google search, YouTube or AI….you’re going to get top recommendations like Mushi 1, Futari, battle garrega, strikers, ketsui, RSG, Crimzon Clover WE, Deathsmiles, Rayz Collection, Gradius Collection, Ikaruga, etcMost arcade shmups from the shmup devs like Konami, cave, toaplan, nmk, psikyo, raizing are fantastic you have to go out of your way to find jank.>new players die a lotYeah everyone dies a lot, that’s normal, they’re still fun instantly there’s no dead air waiting period. No cutscenes and exposition dumps, You’re thrown in the action right away. How can you boot up Crimzon Clover or Rayforce and not have a good time right away? If the new player just wants an easy brainless win, like in RPGs or modern games, that will be an issue lol
I've been chipping away at my first 1cc for about a month now. I find that not only am I stagnating, I'm actually getting worse and dying during sections I could previously do in my sleep. Is this normal?
>>12347823Happens when I'm tired or distracted. Might need to play when you feel fresh and can lock in.Otherwise you might want to route some of the seemingly "easier" stages/sections so you are not reactively dodging which opens you up to silly deaths and resets....Even stage 1 or 2, etc.If you are more specific I might have better advice though, which shmup and which part, etc
>>12331584You don't. They simply are not fun for most people. People who say otherwise are either at speedrunner levels of autism, shitposting or have made playing a single genre of video games their entire identity.
>>12347880Maybe OP isn't a mouth-breathing, knuckle dragging, normie? He didn't ask how should retards and jarpigs get into shmups.
>>12347890Whatever man, enjoy wasting your life on shitposting.
>>12347823Yes it's normal, it indicates 2 things:>your routing or execution is inconsistent >you are tired from playing the same thing too much If it's the first, more practice is required.If it's the second, reducing playtime is required for at least a few days.
>>12339403>shmups aren't grinding because you are getting better in hand eye skillLet me stop you right there. Shmups are grinding. The actual process itself of gitting gud at a shmup feels the same, and in practice is the same, as grinding in a JRPG. And while JRPGs have an element of hard-coded RNG where you can just win by getting lucky, in practice the same is true with shmups where you can randomly shit out an amazing run and then immediately eat shit on the next one. The actual process of playing both genres feels the exact same and if you disagree then you haven't played both genres.
>>12348287>getting good at jrpgs feels same as shmupsCompletely false.First of all you don't get good at jrpgs, everyone is good at jrpgs if they are literate and have a pulse. No one can name a "good" jrpg player because the genre has almost no skill requirement or way to differentiate good from bad players, rather all it takes is satisfying a gear/level check to progress.Secondly, subjectively, I've never had sweaty palms, shaking hands, increased heart rate and immense satisfaction beating any jrpg, and I've beat a ton. When I'm doing a good shmup run, a personal best pace (after a few weeks of practice) it feels extremely rewarding and thrilling to execute precise maneuvers under stress. I'd compare it to winning a fighting game tournament. Nothing remotely close to what jrpgs offer.>grinding to git gud is same in bothGrinding jrpgs is essentially mindless and takes no skill, like boomers playing slot machines, or gacha autobattlers, you can grind while watching TV or do something else. Shmup 'grinding' is the exact opposite, it's all based on player skill, focus and active strategizing.
The problem with grinding in RPGs is that it pretty much always involves doing some braindead menial task for hours upon hours so that you can make the rest of the game braindead too with the stats you've obtained. The only "skill" involved in this genre is optimizing the time you waste on grinding.Joke genre and hobby for spreadsheet cattle.
>>12348312You're legit autistic.
>grinding to increase a number is the same as grinding to increase your actual skillI have the perfect JRPG attack to use on you
>>12348378Don't pay much attention to it, the whole argument is a weird forced rivalry that originated from the now defunct /shmupg/ (I wonder why, must be work of JRPG players, clearly) and for some reason these nigs want to spread it everywhere, even if most players of either cannot give a flying fuck. That, and discord/streamer drama.Me? I play multiple genres, like most people do. That includes RPGs and shmups, and I have a high amount of hours behind some games of both genres, backed by some unironic spreadsheeting optimization for the former and 1ccs or modest attempts to get more score for the latter. All in the name of my own fun and liking vidya though, I generally don't get involved in community/fandom bullshit.
>>12348312This is all facts.I play jrpgs and shmups but I'm not going to pretend rpgs take a lot of effort or skill, unfortunately they are my "chill out" genre I play on my Switch when I don't feel like focusing too much.
>>12348312"Skill" would mean something if it were quantifiable and linear, except it's neither of those things. Of course your "skill" with a shmup ultimately trends upwards, this is inevitable, but it always peaks and lulls in a random way. This aspect of "skill" does not require active focus, it's passive and it always happens regardless of what you're doing. People who are actually good at a real-life skills will downplay the importance of "skill" because they understand how it works, it's not something static that is inherent to you as a person. You will have ups and downs and past a certain point, your ability to perform will be down to luck. RPG character progression is designed to mimic these exact aspects of acquiring real-life skills and they represent them in a pretty faithful way.
>>12346586Thunder Force 3 has a glaring problem, but that problem is that enemies (especially bosses) die to fast. This is not because of weapon balance. Every weapon feels good to use, does its job well, and has situations for its use. The fact that they all obliterate the enemies is a separate issue.We know what an actual overpowered weapon looks like from TFV - that game was essentially designed for superplay/speedkilling with free range (going as far as scoring mechanics), and plays like a completely different game without it. This is not TFIII. Or TFIV.In TFIV, the blade is powerful but it has hitbox issues and lags the game. The railgun looks great but is very weak for some reason. The hunter has been heavily nerfed to the point of being highly situational. The only good weapons are both gimmicks, the point-blanking free range and the vertical snake, the latter of which is generally superior. Once you get a grip of these two, there is hardly ever a point to using the other weapons, and that sucks.>>12348395Seconded (thirded?). Nothing wrong with chill out games though. There are also hard RPGs but the skills are entirely different, mostly planning ahead.
>>12348408sorry that wall of cope doesn't excuse rpgs being braindead piss easy chill out genre>>12348417nothing wrong with easy games>hard rpgseven those have a really awful difficulty curve, usually the hard parts are rare, surrounded by hours and hours of braindead parts too
The only RPGs I can stomach anymore are dungeon crawlers and strategy games because they have a modicum of challenge and a minimal amount of text/cutscenes.Final Fantasy style trash did innumerable damage to the genre.
>>12348424I accept your concession.
>>12348440I concede rpgs are a braindead chill out genre that are barely games.nothing wrong with that desu, I "play" visual novels sometimes too
>>12346325Tyrian's mouse controls kick ass though. It's the best way to play it.>>12345407I enjoy both, and I don't care if people see them as "hobbyist jank". If anything, that just means they have SOVL.
>>12348432>Final Fantasy style trash did innumerable damage to the genre.jrpgs are not rpgs, this is common knowledge.
>>12348447mouse to fly around, keyboard for twiddles
>>12339365Wuwa got me into sekiro. (wanted a fast movement game like wuwa, but where dodging and perrying actually matters) What does that say about me?
>>12348473did you beat Sekiro? that would make up for your Wuwa blunder.
Difficulty for the sake of difficulty is dumb.
>>12348459I almost forgot about those.
>>12348479Not yet, but from my first sesion yesterday I can tell I will stick with it for a long time. How fluid is the movement in a game is the deal breaker for me, regardless of how much I like its themes or genre. I still log in wuwa from time to time. I like the flying and the wall running very much and did not find a good substitute yet. There are a few characters with smooth combos I enjoy too, but the lack of actual enemies and the grinding required for unlocking them is too much for me .
>non-retro chink gachaslop being discussed on /vr/Just nuke this board from existence. It's a better fate than staying in this pathetic state.
>>12348510Board's fine, delete the shitposts
Why even bother justifying the games you play? You don't see players in PvP games saying that PvP games is the pinnacle of gaming skills, and personally, I find being a top player in a PvP game to be more skillful because you're addressing the human element, and the human element is unpredictable. I just play shmups because it's fun to analyze where the safe spots are, and how to optimize score via routing.
>>12348716>Why even bother justifying the games you play?Probably because some retarded faggot showed up claiming that grinding in a JRPG and grinding in a shmup are the same thing.
>>12348736>Probably because some retarded faggot showed up claiming that grinding in a JRPG and grinding in a shmup are the same thing.What insane cope is this lmao? One is repetition to a mind-numbing degree, the other is practicing to perfection.
>>12348746>the other is practicing to perfectionSee >>12348716
>>12348918Yes, I'm saying grinding in JRPGs are the repetition while shmups are the practicing to perfection. Also,
>>12339416Agree with everything, but y'all need to try better RPGs lmao. Yeah, 90% are easy filler that people play because they because their ADHD doesnt let them read a VN or a point and click, but there are also a lot of good and challenging ones.
>>12348510rpg larpers doesnt even play rpgs anymore lmao
>>12349142Start naming them. I personally enjoy the SaGa games but even they have their fair share of grinding, just that you need to grind smart instead of grinding hard.
>>12349153in my experience,grinding is 90% of the time a skill issue even on bad / easy games but i haven play SaGa.Try Etrian Odyssey, Crpg like party customizacion, good lore, soundtrack by the legend itself Yuzo Koshiro, manual mapping, brutal dungeon crawling where you are being constantly assaulted by the random encounters, creative classes. Tough as nails bosses with a lot of ways to beat em but always are designed around their weak points to counterplay you (very hard to cheese). The best part, respects your time lmao.1 is meh, 2 is good, 3 is god like, 5 is really good, Untold 2 is god like, 3 is the best entry point, try the hd port.others, classic wizardry, class of heroes, SMT V and Strange journey, Baroque, the dark spire,>>12347039Psikyo and Raizing games have a lot of lag compare to some of their contemporaries, Love Batrider but its really hard to play without run-ahead, mad respects to those who 1cc on real hardware.
>>12347880That's just not true. I don't know what faggot says this. Shmups are for everyone. Go post on r/trans or make more Tyrian threads.
>>12349201>lists literal children's games with 90% of their content locked behind a grinding focused post-game>thinks a couple frames of lag are gunna make a difference in a simple batrider survival routeHoly moly
>Download Tyrian because it keeps getting shilled here>Start up dosbox>It's fucking ass>Looks like an early 00's browser flash game>Plays and feels like shit>Can't even WASD because won't let me reassign s keyWhy did I do this to myself?
>>12349625>Download Tyrian because it keeps getting shilled here/vr/ was a mistake
Transyian? Never played it.
>>12349625>download tyrian because it's fun>start up dosbox>it's fucking ass>properly configure dosbox because i'm not a retard>nice>looks better than the average shooter of the time>music kicks ass>plays great>i'm not constantly comparing it to some other game like a retard, so I enjoy it>can't even WASD because won't let me assign s key>look up a solution, fix the issue within 5 minutes because i'm not an illiterate retard>ask myself why the hell I want to use WASD in a shooter
>>12349712>>looks better than the average shooter of the time>>i'm not constantly comparing it to some other game like a retard, so I enjoy itLiterally just compared it to other shmups, saying it looks better (it doesn't)>Plays greatIt doesn't >Great music Slop >Just have to patch it Better skip it and play a real shmup not dos shovelware
>>12349718>calls the music bad>uses slop to do it>no real argument other than no no no>says he compared it to shmups>conveniently posts no shmups to avoid being called outdiagnosis: 14yo internet badass, lack of father figure, likely too much estrogen from shitty food as well.play some ketsui to grow your balls back. that's right, it's not mutually exclusive with tyrian
>>12349771Saying it looks better than average shmups in it's era is literally a comparison, it's worse than saying it looks better than a particular shmup, since it places it above all regular shmups lol. Are you ESL?>No argument givenNone are needed since you never explained how Tyrian's design and mechanics have any value in the genre at all. It's a totally ignored game for good reason.
>>12349712>Try to use gamepad>Immediately starts farding and shitting itself>Buttons falsely stuck>Close it and play SNES kusoges like Strike Gunner instead>Wow this is so much better.jpg>Forever ashamed I played T*rian
just say you got filtered. it's anonymous, there's no consequence to admitting you suck
>>12349785Congrats you learned from your mistake. Of course playing euroshmups is a big mistake, no exceptions.
>>12349712>looks better than the average shooter of the time
>>12339339The content of this picture is way less funny than imagining the spiteful, angry soul that was driven to create it.
>>12349712>>looks better than the average shooter of the time
>>12349712>>>looks better than the average shooter of the time
>r-type leo>truxton 2>average>>12349839lol.
I recently got done doing no-miss 1-ALL on Gradius. Now I'm working on Salamander II no-miss 1-ALL
I'm gonna go to fucking sleep. It's fun to do classic 4chan back and forths, but I'll point out the actual mistake here: the imagined argument.Here is what the tyrian defenders in this thread actually argued:• some early bait post that got ignored (nice)• tyrian is fun/good except ch5• tyrian gets hard eventually and needs execution/tech• looks better than average shmup• most people who call it shit have not properly learned it, or even played it.The opposition has completely ignored most of these points, and instead argued the following:• it's not better than classic shmups (it was never claimed to be)• it's hard to set up, so it's bad (not the game's fault, also ???)• X titles look better (coincidentally all arcade hardware, and by acclaimed companies)• something about an imaginary rivalry between tyrian and jp shmups• Tranny spamBut hey, at least it's not as bad as the RPG guy, fucking yikes.Also, I don't even fault people for arguing this stuff. I have seen the ridiculous tyrian shill threads from earlier. It's just as bad as the earthbound spam and sega tards
>i was merely pretending to be retarded
>>12349963>tyrian needs executionAs I pointed out, the execution boils down to spamming secret fighting game moves the game doesn't tell you about to kill the enemies before they start shooting because the movement is so unreliable and the hitbox so big that actually trying to dodge is impossible. That is not interesting or fun game design.>coincidentally all arcade hardwareOK nigger here you go
>>12349839What game is this? Looks legit.
>>12350004p47 aces
>>12349963>tyrian is funFun is an extremely broad feeling, and it's typically not binary yes/no either. The fact that you can turn your brain off and have fun wacking your mouse around playing Tyrian and taking fifteen hundred meaningless hits a second while nothing has any feedback and nothing feels like anything doesn't mean anything, any person can realistically have fun with any piece of trash if they lower their standards like that.
>>12349997>As I pointed out, the execution boils down to spamming secret fighting game moves the game doesn't tell you aboutNot spamming, but okay...>to kill the enemies before they start shooting because the movement is so unreliable and the hitbox so big that actually trying to dodge is impossible.>wacking your mouse around playing Tyrian and taking fifteen hundred meaningless hits a secondThis reads exactly like what someone who has read about tyrian (from haters) but never played it would post.Cute biometal btw, that game has a rad artstyle, though there's a good laugh to be had at the amazingly bad pilot art.
>>12350027>this reads exactly like what someone who has read about Tyrian from haters but never played it would postFirst of all, I'm taking it from the 2 biggest videos on jewtube shilling the game have to say, where they explicitly praise the game allowing you take infinity hits as the greatest thing in the world because it means taking hits is meaningless, which it is in Tyrian.Secondly I have played it and that's exactly what the game is like. The visual feedback is extremely poor, you can never tell whenever something is happening, you might as well have zero feedback at all for getting hit, the explosions look weak as hell, etc.
>>12331657hooollyyy SEX
>>12350040>First of all, I'm taking it from the 2 biggest videos on jewtube shilling the game have to say, where they explicitly praise the game allowing you take infinity hits as the greatest thing in the world because it means taking hits is meaningless, which it is in Tyrian.Why would you trust this? People having shit takes on the internet, let alone jewtube is nothing new. Fuck tyrian, pick any game you want that isn't obscure and you'll find some nerd saying the stupidest shit about it within 5 minutes of searching, with a massive audience to boot.>Secondly I have played it and that's exactly what the game is like. The visual feedback is extremely poor, you can never tell whenever something is happening, you might as well have zero feedback at all for getting hit, the explosions look weak as hell, etc.giving the benefit of the doubt here, there are two things to consider. first, the game is actually clearest on the lowest gfx setting, because it removes a lot of redundant effects, including the wave and light ones.second, a ton of shit is not obvious or genuinely just hidden behind codes. don't jump the gun for calling it shit, it's the same principle that mortal kombat players went wild over. this includes the harder difficulties, gfx settings, an entire game mode...
>>12350067I played on normal graphics mode.>muh hard modesMy issue with the game is not related to difficulty, it is related to the basic way the game functions. Hard modes do not remove the inertia. Hard modes don't make your hitbox not absurdly large. Hard modes don't add invincibility frames on hit, a basic feature of literally any action game (this isn't even related to arcade philosophy or whatever this is just basic design stuff) Hard modes do not make the game good.
*of most 2d action games but you get the point
>>12343798>posts image from an anime where its fans pretend it's something higher than it isIt's like poetry, it rhymes
>>12343947for me it's Mikuruga
>>12350072tyrian was not designed for button movement, no matter what that one anon here will tell you...and it should be clear by now that comparisons to standard shmups are pointless, unless fishing for reactions.the game fully expects you to use the mouse (or similar), and was designed with the full speed it provides in mind. also, no inertia. keyboard is for twiddles and subweapons with ammo.hitbox isn't anything special. there's arcade titles that have similar. it sounds like your biggest issue is just what happens when you get hit. I can't offer any advice here, obviously, but it is not hard to get used to with a bit of play.
>>12350096Mouse has inertia too. >hitbox isn't anything specialThe level of bullet density combined with the slippiness of control makes the hitbox's bigness a problem. You need to balance the game around all of these factors. Tyrian does not have balance, which is why they don't work.
>>12350097>Mouse has inertia too. It shouldn't. Something's up, and it's probably dosbox being a retarded piece of software as usual.>The level of bullet density combined with the slippiness of control makes the hitbox's bigness a problem. You need to balance the game around all of these factors. Tyrian does not have balance, which is why they don't work.Maybe try to fix the mouse inertia first before worrying about this. You can take my word that it's not as bad as it seems until then. beh.
>>12350102OK. What do you use to play Tyrian other than dosbox then
>>12350040Wow it sounds worse than I remember lmao
I use a garbage disposal to play tyri@n desu
>>12350117i wired several frog brains together for my setup (full frogs intact), you haven't felt accurate movement until you've used the leg as a joystick
>>12350005Thank you lad>>12349997>BiometalDeep cuts getting posted here. The US release with the 2 Unlimited soundtrack ruined this game forever. I can't even play the Famicom version now because of this.
>>12350105You can play it on Windows via Tyrian 2000, that's the windows version or something. When I played I used dosbox because I use Linux,.
>>12332923Dude, are you me? You sound like me.
Is cheating in order to practice ok in shoot em ups? I want to be able to 1cc Lords of Thunder and Parodius da! but I am tired of instadying to the dark tower and want to just practice it beforehand without losing gamer cred
>>12350473Anything goes in practice since the point is to get better and learn the game, not to lie about an achievement.
>>12350198https://github.com/KScl/opentyrian2000
>>12350473Save state practice is something the best players do blatantly and promote through live streams.The games themselves started including stage select modes as back as DOJ PS2 port, and eventually a save state feature.Only some autistic fucks will be bothered by this really.
the schizo is baaaaack
>>12350473What kind of question is that, anon? Do you consider reading a book about chess "cheating" too? Do you consider a baseball player practicing the same thing for hours cheating?WTF?
>>12349712>>looks better than the average shooter of the timeLooks better than Raptor: Call of the Shadows and 2hu (but that's like making fun of a retard)
>>12350925https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_SgzSU-Ok0
>>12350865Chess analogy is very fitting because players genuinely do practice specific game states, such as openings or endgame. Most of the improv happens in-between.Yeah generally gitting gud in more efficient ways isn't considered cheating unless you claim to have beaten the game without actually doing a real full run without cheats or save states.
>>12350473It's still cheating
You dont. Shmup players are notoriously mentally ill, especially non-Asians. Shmup is an absolutely shit genre.
>>12351076>working on my routing through this memorizerWhy do Shmupfags talk like this? You could say the same thing about playing Super Mario Bros.
>>12351217>why do car racers talk different than us taxi drivers? we both just drive cars!!!Because shmup players have ascended while you and your ilk are still rolling in the mud with pigs, jarpigs.
Learn how to play fighting games instead. You'll at least be more social.
Already am playing fighting games, rhythm games, racing games in addition to shmups. The whole arcade suite.Won't touch JRPGs though!
>>12350473Save stating, credit feeding, all are valid so long as your real run doesn't do any of these. Anyone saying otherwise is stupid, or is Mike Matei.
>>12351217Yeah? People do, in fact, say the same thing about playing super mario bros. What's your point?(The fact that the people who actually enjoy mindlessly routing through this memorizer for both genres are soulless LGBT shills will be addressed at a later point)
>tfw little by little making babystep progress in RSG
>>12351321Most of the game is a memorizer but I find the hammer bros to be an RNG gacha. Or maybe I just didn't grok the subroutine.
>>12351284Very based and red pilled
>>12351230jarpigd are infinitely more entertaining than your repetitive shit for retards
It's really funny to see JRPG fans claim any game as repetitive or even think the "repetitive shit" is comparable to the repetition of leveling up characters.
>the high-paced, easy-to-innovate shmup genre is repetitive, but rpgs, famous for the practice of constantly repeating the same encounters to make numbers go up, are notI have the perfect JRPG attack to use on you
>>12331584Unironically Touhou. They start out very easy and have the biggest playerbase out of any shmup. They also have the most autists pushing survival and scoring to this day and an annual World Cup.
It's bizarre how a genre about improvement and setting higher scores has so many weirdos who denounce practice, memorization, collaboration, or using any kind of external resource. I've never seen this kind of autism anywhere else.
>>12351605It's literally just /vr/. No other shmup community is like this. It's either cope or trolling, hard to say, but regardless these threads are completely unusable.
>>12346721what is the point of not defeating the boss in stage 3? Why take so long?
>>12351658Score>but that's dumb and unfunYep. Sometimes people telling you to play for score in general forget how the experience actually looks like in some games.
>>12351702No no, I understand score, but how is he scoring? I see him avoiding death, but he only scores points when he hurts the boss, and the boss has a limit to its hurt?Or does the boss regenerate health so you can keep hurting it?What I do not understand is the mechanic of the scoring.
>>12351706>What I do not understand is the mechanic of the scoring.Don't know either but I'm assuming shooting it at certain moments gives more points for some reason, so he makes sure to do damage only in that timeframe.
>>12351708Makes sense, usually the tricks are based off obscure glitches or exploits,.
>>12351715Found an explanation saying that the boss self-destructs but there is a trick to delay the timer to about 20 mins by not shooting down the hatches too quickly, and the boss laser attack gives it iframes(?).So the trick is about not making it run out of HP by shooting at the right moments.
>>12351731thnks
Compared to that milk, the literal randomness of sonic wings scoring is better tbqhwyf
>>12351797This but raycrisis.
I find "no memorization" games like Touhou more difficult than games that require memorization.At least in the latter case, if I practice a lot, I end up discovering ways to overcome the most difficult challenges, but in games where you have to dodge millions of projectiles with precision, there is no escape except to have a lot of dexterity and subtlety in your hands, which I don't have. I'm a total troglodyte.
Can someone post the Clover_tac quote? Paraphrased he said something like "when I see someone do amazing dodges in shmups, I think to myself, 'oh wow, this player is not very good'"
>>12351460Why can't you enjoy both? I do. Last JRPG I played was Secret Of Mana, but I've also recently played Crystalis and Faxanadu (one of my favorite games ever). Nothing says you can't like both.
>>12351460>jarpigd are infinitely more entertaining than your repetitive shit for retardsname 3 "entertaining" jarpigs that aren't brain-dead piss easy.
>>12350005Neat, gonna try this on FBNeo
>>12332923Lmao, they literally stole that part from MUSHA (yes, MUSHA came out before)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDoac4j2E2g&t=825s
Don't really like Mork's glazing of FDF3. The game has that ugly chink gacha aesthetic throughout and the redesigns/mech bits look retarded and out of place.
>>12352689I was thinking exactly that. The archers on the moving islands being completely static and just repeating the same 2 second animation while not aiming at the player or moving whatsoever looked seriously retarded. The old Touhou games have shit art but at least they were working within the limits quite well.
>>12352689I downloaded that (for free) and it runs like shit, 20fps on my laptop. It should run fine but I guess they don't know how to program games or maybe the pirate copy is shit
>>12352689>Mork'sWho?>FDF3What?
>>12352816What shmups do you play (daily)? Got any replays we could see? If you don't even play shmups what is the purpose behind your questions??
>>12352821>No responseAs expected!
chat i'm playing DoDonPachi SaiDaiOuJou on switch as my first bullet hell, is it normal to still be dying to the first boss after 2 weeks of daily play.
>>12352856YesConsole releases have additional input lagBest way to play is on FBNeo with Run-Ahead
>>12352863input lag autism is mental illness. my controller has a microswitch dpad anyways, so it's very, very responsive.
>>12352874Kek, I remember youFunny bait
>>12352875?this is my first post here
>>12331584Simply play the game and approach it with a completely empty mind. Don't think about what you think you "should" do or what the "right' way is. Play as you would and try different things to see what works.>In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities but in the mind of the expert, there are few.
>>12352880>Forget everything you know about bread.>Ok?>Yes.>Now, consider this new thing I invented, I call it: bread.
>>12352880>Empty your mind and play the shmup>Credit feed it and spam bombs>Die a million times>Still "Beat" it in 20 minutes>"This game is okay but too easy and short. I beat it my first try" Thumbs down 5/10.
>>12352552>dying over and over and over and over again is entertainingmental illness.
>>12352901>Watching autobattles, scrolling menus and npc blabber is entertainment Mental illness
>>12352901You don't find weaving in and out of bullets, blasting enemies and constantly grazing death fun? Shmups take effort and require all your focus, it's intense and like the purest form of game.
>>12352901kek, you're as brown as the sloppers who turn to AI because making a bad drawing gives you a mental breakdown
>>12352856not a good choice imo, saidaioujou was the most player-unfriendly of the ddps from my experience. (though that's just my opinion). perhaps try regular ddp (not dp), if you count that as a bullet hell
>>12352856SDOJ has a weird difficulty selection whereby if your ship/girl/pilot is wearing less clothes it's harder, the swimsuit is Expert mode. So be careful.First beginner bullet hell I started with Dodonpachi 1-ALL, then Futari original 1cc. Then DOJ white label 1-all which was quite freaken tough, for me at the time.
>>12352946>Then DOJ white label 1-all which was quite freaken tough, for me at the time.It's a huge step above DDP 1-ALL or Futari Original indeed. DOJ WL is harder than BL as you might know, both loops, though the biggest spike is in the second loop.
>>12353098final stage is the biggest spike for me. though i prefer to make my own routes as opposed to copying plays, so i suppose i'm making my own suffering here (i'm having fun, i have to say it before one of you trolls gets excited)
>>12353116>though i prefer to make my own routes as opposed to copying plays, so i suppose i'm making my own suffering heredw I do the same.Have me just dodging shit in the latter half of the stage.https://streamable.com/yhik95Usually people unzip hypers here(and I will absolutely do the same during an actual 1cc run, but I practiced it clean either way)
>>12352863Not her but do I still need to mess with CPU speed/blitter delay for these games?
Same as any other genre. Just find one you like. I personally switch between touhou 10 and Mushihimesama. Don’t let the neck beards get you feeling down!
>go for Devil Blade Hard mode>Boost doesn't act as a shield anymoreFUCK, Normal trained me wrong as a joke
>>12352883>"This game is okay but too easy and short. I beat it my first try" Thumbs down 5/10.This is an entirely fair review. Are players supposed to magically know that the """real""" way to play is to grind 20000 hours until you can manage to do the same thing but with one arbitrary condition?
>>12352921>>12352946SDOJ is sooo fun. i also have Crimzon Clover downloaded might 1cc that first.
>>12353414Yeah
>>12353414>>12353414>1cc is an incomprehensible idea that takes 200000 hours of playtime to figure out
>>12354152Crimzon CLover WE with the "other soundtrack" is so sick, the Unlimited version ost all stages are bangers, except the final stage lol
>>12352217Literally what did he mean by this?
>>12352883>uh just 1cc with no bombs without moving right or left and without pressing buttons and it's actually super deep
>>12354915He meant you should dodge without dodging. pic rel>>12354916>1CCing shmups is a bizarre personal challenge like playing blindfolded with one armthe cope shitters resort to, instead of getting good. Sad!
>>12355004Very interesting quote actually, I would have worded it very differently but I understand the underlying concept is "go in with a rehearsed plan to reduce risky situations, don't just react to the game" and "favor macro-dodging over micro dodging, getting around clusters entirely over doing small sidesteps whenever possible(not counting "streaming" of course, that is a planned technique)."
the fact that both of them immediately agree that just playing by heart is also fun/necessary sometimes is what makes the quote realistic.no one's perfect. you can route your games all you want, but in the end, sometimes you will fuck up and need to recover, and sometimes you're just say fuck all that and play empty-headed.
got to stage 5 SDOJthe A ship feels like cheating lol fast speed and laser damage with the shot
>>12355245>the A ship feels like cheating lol fast speed and laser damage with the shotYa A-S a besHaven't played in a long while but I remember that shit and Jaimers even making a small clip about it.
>>12348287they aren't because it doesn't feel the same, you have a different route from a base one, different situations, different resources used, different rng and different ideas.you cannot shit out an amazing run naturally by game rng by simply the game asking you to survive through predictable results, you don't win freely but simply have runs where you did the right thing and ones where you didn't, this isn't full on rng but simple good game design encouraging skill and having a ton of nuance.Thus these games by not having a need of having a level necessity or an rng run you don't feel a grind because you are doing interesting new things each time.
>>12355647>you cannot shit out an amazing run naturally by game rngNo, not by game RNG, by you being "in the zone" and randomly performing above your usual. This is a real thing, it is NOT part of the game, and it is entirely random and outside of your conscious control. The reverse is also true, when on a particular day you will randomly play like shit no matter how hard you try. This is why skill is not as well-defined and constant as you retards pretend it is.
>>12355709>randomly performing above your usualIt's called proper practice and taking care of yourself. Sleep 8 hours, take breaks, go outside, get some exercise, don't eat like shit. Zoomers figured it out and are setting WRs and killing Inbachi while you're still complaining about practicing over 2 decades later.
>>12355849Brother, I used to play sports. Taking care of your health clears you up but to some extent, but this shit happens regardless. It comes solely from the fact that what you're doing is difficult and you're not likely to nail it every single time. You cannot sit here and tell me you do a Patrick Bateman-esque morning routine for the purposes of sitting on your ass and playing shmups better.
>>12347823Same anon here. I tried taking a break for a few days to see if that would help. Played again today, it really hasn't. In fact, if anything, I'm even worse than I was when I first posted. I suppose that means I need more practice, but desu, I'm feeling pretty over the game at this point and I'm dreading playing more. Maybe a big contributor to that fact is that my main motivation is to prove I could 1cc a shmup, instead of it coming as an naturally from me really having fun, but still.
>>12355869>You cannot sit here and tell me you do a Patrick Bateman-esque morning routineyou probably should if 15-19 year olds are beating your ass
>>12355874You need to practice a route, not practice to improve your generic dodging skills. I've seen quite a few new players assume they need to improve reflexes or some vague 'shmup skill' rather than learning a route that works, and using save states to practice stages and hard sections/bosses etc>I'm even worse nowMy first shmup 1cc was a nightmare I dropped the game several times, and then said fuck it and just did a few runs a day until I got it. The satisfaction I got when I cleared it got me hooked and was totally worth it.
>>12355969old brains aren't really worse than young ones up until you're ultra old. bateman routine won't help you get into the zone, you need to figure out how to do it, everyone's triggers are different, and even then it is not consistent.but the zone is also not really something to rely on. not in shmups, not in studying, or sports, etc. you just need to practice your regular performance.its like that one guy on /x/ who was like "i know people are actually super strong how do i bypass my limits" that got told to just shut up and exercise.
HEAVEN IS HERE INSIDE MY SOUL
>>12339402NOOOOOO
Why are arcadefags on this site allergic to practicing and routing? It's not just shmupfags, it's rhythm game fags too. It's like 90% of the experience.
>>12356425Its just /vr/, which has become a joke board of collectors who don't play anything.
>>12356521>becomeAlways was
>>12356425>rhythm game fagsi don't know if you were in that adofai thread on /v/ yesterday, but some iidxfag was seething about the charts being too spammy, memotrash and unreadable.well no shit sherlock. that's every difficult rhythm game you suck at. go practice.
I wonder if OP still wants to get into shmups after reading this whole thread
>>12356705Shmups are great, you just have to ignore the shmup community
>>12356705OP is into shmups and has played more shmups than the majority of anons itt.
>>12356710I understand their frustration after seeing the kind of ""people"" that purposefully seek out shmup discussions to shit them up
>>12346521>Thunder Dragon 2Not a big fan of NMK. Their games are OK but they drag on for way too long and sometimes have bullets that are way too fast and dense for your hitbox size plus really cheap bullshit like bullets from offscreen behind and back corners. The basics are good but they stretch it out too long and make it start to get gay and shitty. Hard pass.
>>12352946>SDOJ has a weird difficulty selection whereby if your ship/girl/pilot is wearing less clothes it's harderWhy even include this? Anime girl shit ruined shmups.
>>12356557https://youtu.be/1MwviRZ1Kjc
>>12357127fuckin lmao
>>12357119Do you normalfags ever tire of being retards?
What's the "real" version of Under Defeat?There's a few different modes in the steam version
>>12357119Because it's funny and it's double funny that shit like that outlived jet fighters and helicopters.
>>123573011. it didn't. machine shmups are still around, and going harder than earlier actually2. even among the anime girl shmups, this is specifically just cave degeneracy. buncha creeps in the office
>>12357374I wasn't talking about machines and SDOJ also had them in spades as enemies.
>>12357374just say you're gay
>>12332563Why bullshit him? You won't lose your long term skills, but will lose most of the consistency you once had on a game even with a 2 week break. Because of how fast it's lost, consistency is king, so playing every day
>>12357879Merely trying to reassure him that you won't lose your skills.I came back to games I haven't played in a while and still remember how to do stages I practiced, though it will obviously take a few attempts before it will be executed exactly as before.
>>12331584Ignoring the people saying to 1cc and playing for score instead. The more fun way to play. Replays are a good source for routes, and practice modes are a godsend
>>12357918Terrible idea.Scorefagging is only fun when the game has a good system (most don't and will force you into boring milking routines)
>>12357916It's almost like starting over again with the game, outside of remembering how strats go
>>123578792 weeks? Go get checked for Alzheimer's
>>12357929No shit you also have no pick one good for playing for score. Most milks last less time than the average Touhou spellcards
>>1235794120 min spellcard, imagine...
>>12357717While you stroked it to lolis and fought a giant cow, I cultivated my protein powder in the builder systemSeriously though what was with that cow
>>12352863Can't believe I randomly came across a shmupmame build that nearly eliminates SDOJ input lag this while doomscrolling twitter. I thought it was discontinued for a while. FBNeo with runahead still feels slightly laggy but this is perfectThe game feels so good when you aren't skating on ice
>>12357941Proper Touhou graze milking (PCB and IN) takes more skill than a WL 2-ALL
I hate milking
>>123579731. You don't have to play grazing games like Touhou2. You can still improve the score a lot even just capturing spell cards and timing your cancels better in IN.
>>12357262Obviously the arcade version.
Me when I play stgs for the first time. Seriously, why does he play like this?https://youtu.be/e9QBnHvlDiA
Finally, 1cc Batsugun. It took me much longer than it should have for a relatively easy game because I didn't realize I had to set up auto-fire and use the girsl's pink ship.Once I set up auto-fire, it was just a matter of playing without being drunk.Now my next goal is Vasara 1, which I also think is a relatively easy game.But since I only play on weekends, and under the influence of alcoohl, it's possible that it will take me a few more months....
>>12358016For IN, a regular 1cc is usually like 2-2.5b from failing spell card bonuses and bad routing. If you employ no grazing tactics and just incorporate all SCB and collecting most point items with the scoring shottypes, you can realistically reach ~3.5-4b. The rest of the score lies in collecting time orbs to boost point item value, which mainly comes from graze milking and timing familiar kills for bigger bullet cancels. Top scoreruns reach 6.5-7.1b.PCB comes with a different layer of autism in timing your borders correctly to milk graze as much as possible for higher point item value. SCB value is also uncapped unlike for IN, so that makes milking even more valuable.That leaves the main issue (for me at least): the length of the run. A normal run is usually like 25-30 minutes, a proper scorerun can take almost an hour and the final boss is the most significant part of your score.
>>12358094So you'll watch
>>12358340>That leaves the main issue (for me at least): the length of the run. A normal run is usually like 25-30 minutes, a proper scorerun can take almost an hour and the final boss is the most significant part of your score.To me, having to play the whole game unfocused and graze that way seemed ridiculous
Shmups and scoring would be way more popular and viable if they had built in save points like in jrpgs, so your progress is actually meaningful and you avoid the constant run restarts that feel like you wasted a whole day or week or month with no progress, nothing gained to show for your effort. Its kind of baffling how some try to retain the old arcade model when it clearly didn't work at arcades (they all died) and it clearly isn't working now (console shmups didn't fair better).How about you give me one save points mid game and one before the final stage or boss? Then I could show you my real "personal best" without having to sift through hundreds of pointless runs.>Oh nooo he said RPGs!Yes they do many things right, like respect your time and retain your progress so you have something to show and go back to without needing to repeat easy initial stages over and over each time you want to play!That's my rant and if you disagree just realize you are wrong and the nails are in the shooter coffins already
>>12360703>Go to shmup exhibition >Load my save state right before Hibachi>Beat it in a few tries>Everyone cheers
>>12360724this but unironically. if it's really a few tries and not just being mindless about it.if you can beat hibachi, you can beat hibachi, having to do a run before it is its own test of skill, but it doesn't make hibachi any weaker. maybe people just wanted to see you kill the bee. go figure.
>>12360824The psychology of going into hibachi while carrying a good score is radically different than going into hibachi in save state practice. It's a subjective thing but unless youre a robot or someone like fufufufu it will affect you >>12360703I wouldn't mind this but shmupfags and score leaderboards would still disregard scores and 1CCs that used save points lol
>>12357262Dreamcast cuz is the comfiest
>>12360703I love RPGs but you're wrong. The biggest issue of shmups is that, most of the time, 1CCs aren't properly integrated into the game and instead feel like a "make your own fun" arbitrary challenge. The ability to creditfeed at all is a design issue that makes no sense outside of an actual arcade setting, this is one thing that has been lost in emulation, emulationfags cope about it all they want but it's true. Credits also inherently build distrust and are single-handedly responsible for the "credit mucher" meme. The fact that you can creditfeed makes you think "Am I even supposed to 1CC this?" Shmups should be explicitly designed around 1CCs, 1CCs should always reward you with things that most players don't get to see. I agree there should be something "to show for" being able to do a 1CC, it should be something satisfying. 2nd loops with slightly different bullet patterns and secret final bosses are not enough of a reward.Also, quicksaves are inherently poor design for similar reasons to creditfeeding. They're not a good thing in RPGs because they allow savescumming and remove the developer's burden of making a well-balanced experience, since you can just always save and reload at any point. Again, it's the same "Am I even supposed to do this in one try?" Ideally, in an RPG you should be incentivized to always stick to your choices and always keep playing even if things don't go perfectly. And also, JRPGs are not real RPGs so referencing them is irrelevant.
