Is Lavos evil?
That depends on if it's sapient or basically just an animal acting on instinct.Still needs to be stopped either way, even if it's not sapient, you wouldn't let a bear roam free in the city just because it's not aware that it shouldn't maul people.
>>12456062Where do you draw the line for sapience?Lavos could have an intellectual level somewhere in between a human and a bear, can you spot the exact point where a creature becomes sapient without any blurry lines?
>>12456049he's basically an overgrown tick so yes. fuck ticks
>>12456049it's unclear on purpose imo. is the queen possessed, influenced, or evil all along?
>>12456062it reminds me of the Crystalline Entity from Star Trek TNG, but it actually just feeds off a planet's inhabitants. Lavos feeds on a planet for millions of years before it comes out and nukes the world for some reason. I don't think even Picard can defend Lavos at that point.
>>12456135It's difficult to draw a line when there are so many moving targets to be honest, though a big one is if it's fully aware and conscious of what it's doing or just acting on animal-like instinct. Does it have any idea that it's basically steering billions of people to develop a certain way and then kill them? Is it aware of what a person is, of death, of them being sapient life? Or is it just acting on base instinct and has no higher cognitive functions to even think of those things?
>>12456224> Lavos feeds on a planet for millions of years before it comes out and nukes the world for some reason.Those are Lavos spawn that failed to make entry into space and came crashing back down to earth. Anything that didn't crash land is going to infect another planet.
>>12456049I think the way it tries to trick the heroes by obfuscating what the true "core" of Lavos is indicates some kind of intelligence, though perhaps not on Lavos's part.I have to wonder if Lavos is a biological von-neumann probe of sorts sent to collect energy from planets, spawn more, and leave. The millions of years time scale makes me think this is unlikely though.
>>12456250I don't think those are spawn, I think that's just debris from violently emerging from the planet.
>>12456049I always took it to be a giant space bug that never gives any thought to the little short lives things living on a planet. It might be a case of something so intelligent and far off that humans cannot comprehend it. But I just see it as an animal doing it's thing.
>>12456250I took it to be more like a massive volcanic eruption since it's coming up from beneath the mantle. That's going to release a lot of shit into the air like a supervolcano. Which are basically society ending calamities anyway.
>>12456207>is the queen possessed, influenced, or evil all along?Her love for Lavos is influenced.Her abuse of the earthbound ones is on her, this seems to be pretty common among her people.
>>12456049I kind of wonder what Step #2 of it's plan is. Okay it pushed evolution in a specific way so that it can take the most useful qualities from Earth life until it evolved into the ultimate life form. Now what? Does it go to a new planet and do it some more? Does it just become a god and ascend? Where does it go?
>>12456224>before it comes out and nukes the world for some reason.I think Lavos destroys the world so that its offspring can grow up on the surface without threat, and then leave for other planets.>>12456260The things that destroy the planet do seem to come from Lavos itself, and when you fight it, it does the same thing with the attack "Destruction rains from the heavens". https://youtu.be/iC_BUaKN3is?si=-wZJq3GU2Sb1nKkh&t=25
>>12456265>Does it go to a new planet and do it some more?Its offspring does, I think Lavos just lets itself die of old age after 1999.
>>12456135It understands choice and consequence. Thus it can gain knowledge that influences the self, those around it and their/it's future. Thus it gains a quality that can be improved and challenged beyond the simple acts of death and survival
>>12456286It's weird to me how it's offspring never inherited any of the genetic traits it gained from sitting on Earth. They were all back to square 1.
>>12456286This, it's clearly not there in 2300ad, except its kids that didn't make it to space but also didn't die during launch
>>12456286It was a giant space cicada all along.
>>12456297Maybe the Lavos Spawn needed to grow up for the traits to show.
>>12456294An ant can arguably do that.
>>12456279Yes, and you aren't being bombarded by tiny lavoses, just debris and what seems like the magic equivalent of artillery fire.
>>12456286>>12456302Death Peak seems to be the spot where he erupted and formed a mountain, and it's possible that Death Peak is at least partially Lavos's remains/shell.
It's just the thing from NausicaaSo just abiding by its nature
>>12456049Yes, it's a euphemism for straight white men destroying POC
>based off the space bugs from pixelOk, were they evil? Are the Photino Birds from Xelee series evil? Does the wolf consider the sheep’s feelings?
>>12456049It's just a brainless animal trying to have sex.
>>12456049nothe core of evil is resentmentlavos is just an animal
>everyone concerned about lavos>no one concerned about the conscious entity that is opening portals everywhere so people can not just defeat lavos but solve their own personal problems
>>12456656Schala is responsible for that.
>>12456657>schala knows to fix Lucca's momdoubt
>>12456062>you wouldn't let a bear roam free in the city just because it's not aware that it shouldn't maul people.A bear roaming freely in a city would be one of the less dangerous things to watch out for.
>>12456256>I think the way it tries to trick the heroes by obfuscating what the true "core" of Lavos is indicates some kind of intelligence, though perhaps not on Lavos's part.Not necessarily, there are plenty of animals that evolved some kind of way of signalling "I'm dangerous" even when they are harmless, like butterflies with elaborate patterns that mimic those of predators. So it could be just an evolutional response.
>>12456135Who cares? That isn't relevant for the question of "lavos needs to be stopped"
>>12456263>I took it to be more like a massive volcanic eruption since it's coming up from beneath the mantle.That wouldn't make sense, because you can visit 1999AD Day of Lavos to fight him; presumably this stops whatever the fuck Lavos is doing to destroy the world. If it was a massive volcanic eruption, then that entire endeavour would be fruitless because even though you destroy Lavos, the eruption itself already destroyed the world regardless of your actions.So it has to be Lavos raining destruction on the world.
>>12456297>It's weird to me how it's offspring never inherited any of the genetic traits it gained from sitting on Earth. They were all back to square 1.They were 300 years old and their life span is measured in at least tens of thousands of years and possibly up to 65 million years (assuming 65M BC was really that long ago, and wasn't just the game saying "really fucking old era").So the spawns you fight are basically as old as a newborn baby.
>>12456696OP asked if Lavos is evil.No one is arguing about if it needs to be stopped or not.
>>12456297>how come undeveloped offspring look different from parentLet me know how you've never actually studied biology.
>>12456717>No one is arguing about if it needs to be stopped or not.That's literally what you just did:>Still needs to be stopped either way, even if it's not sapient, you wouldn't let a bear roam free in the city just because it's not aware that it shouldn't maul people.>Lavos could have an intellectual level somewhere in between a human and a bear, can you spot the exact point where a creature becomes sapient without any blurry lines?
>>12456049YES its fucking evil its a big fat selfish bug parasite sucking the life out of the earth. Its a big fat evil bug. I hate stupid bugs that fly into my room at night when its hot the fucking pests and most of them deserve to get smashed. Lavos was always an evil asshole and it’s mostly other selfish evil asshole humans are defending that giant bug trying to do their usual bullshit batshit manipulation of rewriting history gaslighting to fool themselves into thinking they are the good guy when thats a lie they are in fact evil no good bad pieces of shit. It takes someone strong like Chrono to stand up to the evil bugs of the world and tell them NO YOU FUCK OFF.
>>12456723That post was a reply to the first line, not to the second one.I don't know how you connect the lines to reach the conclusion of "sapience is subjective" -> "must be allowed to do whatever it wants".
>>12456728Big ass fat ass selfish ass evil ass bugs i fucking hate them so much
Are the alien core and the tick monster the same creature?What if the core is in fact a parasite and the tick is just a zombie bug that the alien uses as a bio spaceship?
>>12456651what a great thread. im the number 1 CT fan and somehow i never realized he kinda just stops giving a fuck in the future
>>12456049You will have to define "evilness" to some degree.Evil as in doing evil things? It sure did that.Evil as in being able to choose to do the evil things while at very least acknowledging the most basic concept of morality? Arguably not, he's a space parasite bug just living off according to its own biology. The game never tells you about Lavos making anything resembling a conscious choice.Of course the higher question here would be "what if we just don't understand Lavos thought process because he's an alien"? And thus "what if we labelled him as not even possessing consciousness while actually he does, but he just doesn't follow human standards for incomprehensible reasons to us?"Still, regardless of how you want to argue it, you have to stop Lavos or it will kill everyone.
>>12456049I just realized Lavos is Soval in reverse. He was also the star of Robot Jox and died last year, what the fuck?
>>12456049There's no direct evidence to suggest Lavos is capable of morality. All speculation is from CT fans desperately not wanting the villain to be what he is. A natural disaster and the least interesting 'character' in the story. So no.
>>12457052Natural disaster is still a fun villain imo, though less in terms of being a "character" and more about triggering all sorts of philosophical and ethical questions.
>>12456690Tame compared to white entitlement.
>>12456656I always thought that was the planet doing that because it was upset a giant fucking parasite was fucking around with it.
>>12457052>>12457075now that i think about it, this sounds a lot like godzilla's original intent as being a stand-in for nuclear weapons, then being contorted to have more recognisable personality traits...
>>12456049I fuck with Lavos
>>12456049I considered it could be one of two things>An animal that does what it does for survival. That just happens to be a colossal scale global disaster when it emerges but overall does not consider the little living things on the planet>An evolved intelligence beyond human comprehension, and does not care what the tiny short lived things living on the planet do or want, or how many die while it gestates in the planet>An unintelligent bug that slowly gained intelligence and sentience as it evolved itself using human dna, but still doesn't care about people since it is an immortal godlike being.Either way, it's too different of an intelligence to actively communicate with humans in any meaningful way. People just have to interpret it's motivations. I'm leaning towards Lavos ignoring Queen Zeal too. As long as she did not siphon too much power it was willing to ignore what she did. Sort of like it's ignoring the kingdom until it got too greedy.
>>12457052>>12457075This is why characters like Queen Zeal and Magus were added. They function as the big bad personality for the characters to focus on that makes for an interesting story as you are playing.It's kind of the same situation as a Final Fantasy game where you were chasing after an evil character the whole game, but the final fight happens to be against some super special god-like entity like Cloud of Darkness, Nekron, Zeromus that just pop up in the last bit. In Chrono Trigger you just happen to know about Lavos the whole time, instead of the usual FF thing where they appear out of nowhere after you defeated the main villain.
>>12456743It’s called cosmic horror. If you could understand it you would be driven insane.
This is the Spikeman.
>>12457592
>>12456224Don't underestimate Picard's capacity for moralfaggotry
>>12456049>CTNo, it was just a giant bug sucking the Earth for nutrients>CCYes, it was a smaller bug sucking a girl.
>>12456062Animal instinct can be perceived as evil. Evil is a human concept.
>>12458896No it's not
>>12456049As evil as any other parasitic entity
>>12458386This. Although I would amend that slightly..>TriggerThe fact that it "guides evolution to its ends" when its final form is revealed implies SOME kind of Intelligence, but for 98% of the game it seems to just be a planetary parasite.>CrossSupposed to elaborate more on the high-intelligence bit but the story is kind of botched, what I interpreted is that Lavos went from leeching off the planet to leeching off Schala and thus her despair amplified and Lavos' goals changed from self-preservation to end everything.
>>12456049>he can't be evil if he's too stupid to understand the concept of evil!why do retards think like this? if anything, ignorance is a form of evil
>>12461073Are animals evil?
>>12461076yes, that's why we subjugate them
Lavos is just bullshit, what the fuck is up with going inside him and fighting Cell? But the offspring is just the bug or whatever, it's all utter nonsense
>>12457606>in my dnd settingNever happened.
>>12461125I don't really get that, either. Seems like a forced twist for the sake of surprising the player with no thought to the actual lore implications.
It seems to be aware, so I would say its evil. Zeal jumps on its "shoulder" and seems to ally with it, since it doesnt immediately zap or eat her and instead attacks you.
>>12461152Also Azala seems to know what it is and what she is doing when she summons it to crash into the planet.
>>12461073Remaining wilfully ignorant when you could reasonably not be can be evil, it is not evil to be involuntarily ignorant
>>12461376there is no excuse for stupidity>b-but your honor, I only tortured that puppy to death because I'm retarded!literally doesn't matter. the act remains the same
>>12461406That's a strange contrived scenario that I don't take seriously
>>12461414yet that's how the "justice" system of every Western nation works, as if stupidity = innocence
>>12456049Yeah>>12456062The fact that it turns into the Dream Devourer and sets out to destroy everything everywhere across all of time over multiple timelines suggests to me that it's just evil. Animals don't typically do that.
>>12461459Because Schala (and really the entire Zeal family) is a piece of shit who corrupted Lavos even further with her woe-is-me nonsense.
What’s your favorite era? For me? It’s 2300AD!
>>12461482I prefer right after the end in the upcoming homage
ok but whats up with the lil guy inside
>>12457587Its better when you know about it and the game is built around it. Nekron is extremely unpopular.the FF equivalent would be Sin. Written in an entirely different way compared to CT, but its also this massive force of nature behemoth the party cannot do shit about for most of the game and also influences both good and bad guys through its sheer existence.Jenova too technically but that one is more of an active player.
>>12456049No such thing as good or evil. So no.
>>12457193>welfare hands typed this post
>>12456062I would say sapience is not really the metric. An animal can be sapient but simply not have human concepts of morality, humans place at least some value on other forms of life but there is no reason to think other sapient things would have those values. Xenomorphs I think are supposed to be sapient but they only care about their own species and are not really capable of caring about another life.
>>12461763And yes.
>>12464714Go steal some bread relativist
>>12461786>An animal can be sapient but simply not have human concepts of moralityThen it's evil.>humans place at least some value on other forms of life but there is no reason to think other sapient things would have those values.Then they're evil. >Xenomorphs I think are supposed to be sapient but they only care about their own species and are not really capable of caring about another life.Then they're evil. It's not that hard.
>>12467032You're evil, actually.
>>12456743>What if the core is in fact a parasite and the tick is just a zombie bug that the alien uses as a bio spaceship?Yeah, it seems like the core is the creature's actual body and the giant outer body is just a shell and spaceship.Lavos' shell is the ultimate survival mechanism. It's indestructible, withstands impact with a rocky planet without even a scratch and has interstellar travel capabilities. It is vulnerable only when the creature is very young, as the lavos spawn shell can actually be destroyed.
>>12456049Are hurricanes and earthquakes evil?
>>12468367>the lavos spawn shell can actually be destroyed.You kill that one on Death peak and it leaves the shell behind for you to climb on. I've always assumed the others disappearing was just to not clutter up the area and they're unbreakable from the start, you can only punch the mouth/face/whatever until it dies.
>>12467678I know you are butnwhat am i
Lavos is just bullshit, they completely fucked up by putting some sort of pilot inside. If they wanted to go the shell route they should've made the head retract
>>12468751>by putting some sort of pilot insideGoober brain. It's a sophisticated enough life form that you just think a parasite is a pilot.
>>12468774>parasite
>>12468810The cool thing about Lavos is that, as it's a cosmic horror entity, we really have no idea as to how it's actual biology really works. I personally believe it was just a weird mindless parasite that landed on the planet through sheer dumb luck, then began to be influenced by the local lifeforms just as much as it influenced them by introducing magic.That's why it has recognizable Human like features, it grew those over the millennia after absorbing Human life force and shit.But we can never know for sure.
>>12468825cosmic cope, the writing is just haphazard shit
>>12468825>I personally believe it was just a weird mindless parasite that landed on the planet through sheer dumb luck, then began to be influenced by the local lifeforms just as much as it influenced them by introducing magic. Let me change this up a bit:>I personally believe it was just a weird mindless parasite that landed on the planet through sheer dumb luck (random mutations & natural selection)>then began to be influenced by the local lifeforms (pictoresque, animism culture) just as much as it influenced them by introducing magic (technology), (Domestication, techniques in general)>(But mostly muscled its technological prowess to dominate all others)Hey, would you look at that! It's those hairless apes at it again. Fuck sakes. Goddamn parasites bleeding our earth dry.
>>12468810The thing I don't like about this design is how it looks so technological. It's supposed to be a creature growing inside another creature, not a space man in a metal suit hooked up to life support tubes. It just feels too incongruous, not in a cosmic horror way but just in a way that it was poorly thought out by the artist.
>>12468367Here is the question…why does Lavos basically spray plasma bolts all over the host globe?
>>12457579I feel like they made a good decision to never have the characters meaningfully communicate with Lavos in any way.
>>12469819I think it's supposed to be more like a chitinous bug guy, like Cell in DBZ. The tubes and stuff could be done differently to look more like umbilical cords or something though, I agree.
>>12456224At least three times Picard was willing to sit back and watch a civilization die. When he could easily stop it. And he got pissed off at crewmembers that did try to save aliens.
>>12469828To ensure there are no threats to its more vulnerable young when it begins spawning on the surface? Maybe it could've been more thorough because it left some robots behind, but space bug can't be prepared for everything.
>>12456062>you wouldn't let a bear roam free in the citySpeak for yourself
>>12468646And dyslexic too apparently.
>>12456049I noticed this type of thing popping up a lot in Square games in the early to mid 90s.Chrono Trigger>A giant entity falls from space eons ago and proceeds to poison the Earth before killing all lifeFinal Fantasy 7>An entity falls from space eons ago that proceeds to poison the Earth and kill all life>Final Fantasy Spirits Within>An entity falls from space decades ago that proceeds to kill all lifeMario RPG>An entity falls from space and proceeds to take over the world and kill all lifeSo what was 90s era Square trying to tell us here?
>>12469861>actually, it’s its death throws.It’s like a scarab or lesser extant, bee. It kills itself and in doing so, the host as well.
>>12469913Xenogears A shit, but other that that, it was a arch narrative the ultimately killed the company
>>12469819I just took it to be Akira Toriyama is not that talented or imaginative. He just sees big alien as some weird goofy technology using thing.
>>12469913They really liked the concept that aliens were totally incompatible with life on Earth, including spirits as well. Which was also the plot of Final Fantasy 9 and Spirits Within,
>>12469913Aliens are bad and should get off my planet.
>>12469913Mario RPG isn't about extinction.
Lavos is just another animal. He doesn't think, he intuits.
>>12470972>uhh he wasn't thinking when he raped all those children, therefore it's not evil!
>>12470979Well, did he?
>>12469913>So what was 90s era Square trying to tell us here?From the stars... comes evil..
>>12470972Animals are more aware than anyone gives them credit for and they can definitely engage in evil behavior.
Lavos is the Biff of the Chrono series
>>12471179No one said animals don't have emotions.But they don't reason things out.
>>12456049Yes. They make it pretty clear that it is a malignant force with selfish intent.If you consider Chrono Cross (though I don't like to), Lavos will even consume all time and reality, if given the opportunity.
>>12456250Wrong, those are lasers. He attacks the party with the same thing.
>>12456657It's the planet. For some reason, in the 1990s, the Japanese were obsessed with Gaia Theory.
>>12456690There are no blacks in Chrono Trigger aside from Johnny.
>>12457193We're entitled to pay for your continued existence.
>>12456743Yes it's the same creature. Lavos has a truly alien physiology. It's never implied that there are multiple beings or any relationship between the parts other than that they are all Lavos.I always though it was dumb that they use a mountainside tileset for his insides. For such a classic some parts of CT are roooough.
>>12461162He could tell the future. The Reptites are a more advanced species than humans, by far, complete with psychic abilities.Also>she
>>12471704>other than that they are all LavosI don't know, it feels more like there are no implications about anything at all.Lavos' inner parts are never hinted through the game. When we finally meet it we just have to accept that it exists, without receiving any additional piece of lore/background.
>>12461479lol it's always insinuated that Lavos is the one corrupting Queen Zeal.
>>12471710>Also>>sheNvm apparently Azala is female, never knew that. Anyway, she didn't summon Lavos.
>>12471713>it feels more like there are no implications about anything at allWell, reals before feels. The battle labels call them all Lavos. The party's commentary treats the whole gauntlet of encounters as just a single fight with Lavos.
>>12471724The super organism composed of two different creatures is known as Lavos as a whole.It makes sense to call both the outer part and the inner part Lavos, even if they're biologically distinct.And before someone loses their mind arguing about headcanons, I'm not saying Lavos is two different creatures, I'm just humoring a what if scenario.
>>12456049CATTLE ALWAYS PRATTLEAND WON’T LET THIS PLANET DIEON AND ON THEY BATTLE‘TIL THEY HEAR THE HEAVENS CRY
>>12471729>I'm just humoring a what if scenario.Honestly, it's more interesting than what Square actually wrote for Chrono Cross.
>>12471701Says the niggersow
Making him a time devouring monster made him less interesting.
>>12471212No, I think they do a lot more reasoning than people like to think. Spend enough time around animals and you can see it plain as day, but for some reason people have a very deep denial of it.
>>12468825Queen Azala's psychic power is what pulled him out of the ether. Like a railgun.
>>12472069Did I just say Queen Azala... Jesus christ. I got half-confused with Zeal for a second.
