Why did the high gameplay density of Zelda went to rock bottom when it hit 3D? 3D Zeldas have some of the worst gameplay density I have ever experienced meanwhile 2d Zeldas are amazing high gameplay density games.
I literally cringed when I saw those textures.
Oh hi mark
what meme are you epsteinian devil worshipers trying to push right now
>>12460318Go chase a football, Tommy.
>Why did [...] went toYet another brown zoomer shitstain "Why" thread #18571958butcher & behead
>>12460295Because guys like you don't have a brain to play games with high density.
>>12460295What the fuck is gameplay density?Is this a new zoomer meme?
>>12460295>high gameplay densityShocking amount of skillet discord posters using this term who just like to talk about arcade games without actually playing them. Poser lingo.
>>12460712In this case it's true though. >>12460295It's a problem in many 3D games. The simple immersion of moving a character through a 3D environment is compelling to the average half-sentient normalfaggot. They aren't even aware of the extra time passing as they hold up and watch the scenery scroll by. Then maybe they run into an object and smash a button to perform an 'interaction' where something changes in the world. No challenge or gameplay or anything, just a little immersive mechanic. They are entertained by cutscenes also. It really doesn't matter the quality of the writing or story, the barest minimum presentation of ugly, uncanny 3d models having a dialog lulls them into a happy stupor.I've noticed zoomer brains may need a little extra stimulation so instead of just waking through environments, there are gimmicks like spiderman webbing his way through the city or that dash in E33.Not every 3D game is cripplingly bloated but it's a fundamental problem that threatens most 3D games. It's less of an issue in 2D games because people usually notice and criticize a 2D game full of 'content' where you just press forward and walk for minutes at a time. Nobody seems to mind this in 3D games, though.
>>12460295unfortunately movie games were a massive nuisance with gen 5
>>12460709High gameplay density = More time spent on actual gameplay, such as combat and puzzlesLow gameplay density = More time spent just walking or going through dialogue boxes
>>124620252d Zelda vs 3d Zelda is the perfect example of gameplay density Pushing blocks in 2d Zelda = 2 secondsPushing blocks in 3d Zelda = 10 + seconds
>>12462025>>12462030Also 2D Zelda has much more combat and actual exploration. 3D zelda is 90% extremely boring puzzle minigames and slow ass textbox and cutscenes. It's like comparing 1993 Doom to The Last of Us.
I completely agree.This is why 2d Zelda reigns supreme, far above 3d Zelda. Especially Link to the Past, Minish Cap, Zelda BS No Densetsu, Four Swords Adventure, etc
yeah i never really understood the love for ocarina. i was disappointed by it. i also hated zelda 2. i only love the original and lttp. the only other 3d one i tried was windwaker but it was not for me. i just wrote zelda off since then really but i replay those two every few years
>>12460295"Dig go" not "did went", English doesn't use double past tense.
>>12462369>3D zelda is 90% extremely boring puzzle minigames and slow ass textbox and cutscenes.You can blame Aonuma for that. No joke.https://news.denfaminicogamer.jp/english/170609b/2>Aonuma:Well, I guess you could say that. First of all, I must ask you whether you ever doubted the essence of LOZ was to solve the puzzle from the beginning. The initial LOZ or “Zelda II: The Adventure of Link (AOL)” have lots of action and “The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (LOZLttp)” had puzzles both inside of the dungeon and out. Did you feel that they were the things that made it more like Zelda?>Fujisawa: To be honest with you, all I remember is that there were puzzles in the game. That’s all.>――After hearing what you said, I think the action RPG element, fighting against the enemy actually stands out more.>Aonuma: So if we think about when it was that solving puzzles became the key element of the game. It is probably from “The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (LOZOOT)”. The reason is because I was in charge of designing every dungeon in “The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (LOZOOT)”. At that time, I thought I wanted to make puzzles in the game. It was not like Mr. Miyamoto asked me to make it or it was decided that LOZ was a game with puzzles and battles.>――So what you are saying is, the puzzles in LOZ were just pure coincidence as Mr. Aonuma did what he wanted to do at the time when making 3D LOZ, right?>Aonuma: Yes, if you look into the order of things. I was told to “think about dungeons,” but was never told “to think about puzzles.” So what was the reason that we did? It was done because I love surprising people and I also like puzzles. So I thought, ‘It would be fun if the dungeons were full of puzzles.
>>12462421Remember, this is the man who couldn't beat the first Zelda because the Octoroks scared him.
>>12460295ocarina has way better and more engaging combat than any 2d zelda, and way better puzzles as well. 2d zelda puzzles and combat are as bare bones as it gets except for oracle of ages which actually makes you think a little bit and gets shit on for it. oh and OOT has about 300x more side content and secrets as well
>>12462421Yeah the amount of toddler level but slow as fuck puzzles really ruin 3d Zelda for me, thanks Aonuma
>>12460295short answer: the new 3D camera system required additional space than the viewscreen of 2D sprite's navigation
>>124602953d in general was a mistake. It's only suitable for games like Mario 64 and first person shooters and racing games. Everything else too easily devolves into waste-your-time walking simulators (not that 2d games sometimes did similar by introducing excessive backtracking/top-down slogging/etc, but that is much rarer)
>>12460295Are you even trying to think? Fighting the lizard men in OoT in the Dodongo's Cavern is infinitely more intricate and challenging than fighting even the highest enemies in LoZ.
>>12462453This^Don't get me wrong, I love LoZ and Zelda II, but they're not more complicated than OoT and it's not even close. Nostalgia clouds some memories I think.
>>12462453>>12462543Gameplay challenge is not the same thing as gameplay density.
>>12462561>arrrrrg things must be like Sinistar!No. Do you see what I'm saying? Games don't have to rigidly adhere to formulas to be fun and compelling. Yes, we're not fighting one thing in Pong anymore, or fighting ten things in Defender, we're instead fighting one thing in OoT that also jumps in 3 dimensions, making it harder to predict all while it shoots weapons and you, AND you have to keep from falling into the lava. It's much harder than fighting Gannon in LoZ. Yeah getting to Gannon is tough, but his actual boss fight is a joke and everyone here knows it. That climactic battle is over in less than a minute, but those lizard men in OoT might take you some time.
>>12462569>>12462552Retards that can't understand gameplay density =/= complex
>>12462647Exactly.. I want my games to be dense. The more dense the game is the better.
>>12462652>The more dense the game is the better.Not necessarily.
There are many possible ways to create good video games, and games can be made to create different types of enjoyable experiences. Anyone trying to say all games have to adhere strictly to some fixed ideal rules to be good is full of crap. Whether "dense gameplay" matters or not depends entirely on what the game is trying to accomplish.I enjoy both 2D Zelda and 3D Zelda.
Even if Ocarina of Time has lower decision density than the original Zelda, it offers a wider range of spatial and tactical possibilities in each decision.
>>12462025You are 12 and brown.
>>12462678Fair
>>12462030>>12462369You folks have ADHD
>>12462373>Minish Cap goodZoomers are embarrassing
>NOOOO I have to spend 2 minutes riding epona to the next dungeon>WHY CAN'T THIS EXPERIENCE BE DENSE LIKE MUH ARCADE GAMES!!! MY DAY IS RUINED!!glad I don't have mental illness
>>12462776More like 5 hours of filler before you reach the first dungeon in Twilight Princess.
>>12462761They are just making truthful observations, and you can't handle it. Ironic I was was writing a reply to >>12462569 and predicted your retarded reply.>>12462569The problem is, that it's always the people defending low density using kneejerk, emotional arguments. Low density 3D games hypnotize the player and they become unaware of the passage of time. And when someone tries to point this out as even the mildest criticism, they fly off the handle asserting vague truins no one disputes like, "It's possible for different game designs to be good" and accusing all critics of the bloated design as "having ADHD"Take Everquest. It's a much larger, more challenging, demanding, innovative, immersive and rewarding game than Ocarina of Time. But no one sane would argue that it has high gameplay density. In fact anyone can plainly see it's bloated out the ass with slow-paced play and insane timesinks.As for the Ocarina combat, it's also undeniable that OoT has low combat density, and you can compare to a game like Dark Souls to see 3D Sword/Shield combat implemented at higher density. One reason it matters is because even supposing you like the combat in OoT, you're forced to accept that it is relegated to a sideshow and treated kind of like one of the puzzle types you face occasionally, rather than the bread and butter of the gameplay.
>>12462780twilight princess is shit, this is known.
>>12462784>Everquestoh no, it's retarded
>>12462543>uhm actually there's a single fight in OoT that you can't clear in your sleep (and that's because it's a platforming challenge masquerading as a midboss)
>>12462793>swallowed the bait wholeThanks for confirming the fags defending low density design are insecure pseuds who can't make real arguments.
>>12460295The Japanese were famously incapable of developing 3D games. Nintendo had to hire Brits to teach them how. https://youtu.be/ysxrJdsS7zw?si=52bgTu_roWpeMVEi&t=4588(1:16:28)It's because Japanese home computers were made for spreadsheets and visual porn novels (hires slow gfx) rather than action games and flight simulators (lores fast gfx) so there was no culture of 3d programming.Subsequently Nintendo got scammed by SGI, who were just trying to offload their shitty $50k workstations (becoming irrelevant at the light speed as proven by PC based PSYQ), with shitty N64 design (previously turned down by Sega; Nintendo wasn't that smart, you see), and they basically just had to pad out their shitty Jaguar-like games with the empty space.
>>12462791Twilight Princess is a masterpiece, suck my dick
>>12462695>t. walking sim enthusiast
>>12462818yeah sega was so brilliant they made zero 3d games worth a damn and then gave up making consoles entirely.
>>12462421>puzzles were in lttp (and la)>but that doesnt count, it really started 2 games later with oot, entirely because of me>i like surprising people, so i made the dungeons full of puzzles, just like they were for 2 games before.>isnt that surprising? it was a totally brand new thingwhat a fucking retarded interview. even if he genuinely believes it himself like a schizo narcissist, nobody else should believe this. now, is it his fault that the oot puzzles are baby tier and incredibly slow? possibly, but there are so many other elements and aspect of oot that are also slow, and the fact that they took deliberate care to focus on easing players into the new concept of 3d. its a gamewide thing and not JUST the puzzles. general exploration, combat, everything.
>>12462453>praising oot's combatlmao this level of delusion will never not be funny
>>12462543https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_GBLESmVe4>this is intricate, engaging, and challenging to anongrim. ngmi>>12462798what fucking platform challenge?
>>12463262Kneegrow, I've made it to Gannon without a sword. I am better at all games than you.
>>12463345>cant refute the argument so he resorts to empty blusterlmao pathetic.
>>12460295What makes combat density higher is enemy encounters and the room/arena layout.ALTTP has a combat that is very simple, but actually forces you to engage more with the enemies. Since the way the games chains them together with traps in the rooms require you to position yourself and slash your sword with precisely.Compare this to Ocarina of Time where the lock-on mechanic completely negates the enemy movement. You can circle strafe almost any enemy and slash them easily.And the room layout is generally not that hard, there aren't enough traps either. So in the end the combat encounters have way less depth than ALTTP.
>>12462537>3d in general was a mistakeIDK when it first started in the mid-90s everyone was obsessed with it and 2D was instantly seen as dinosaur tech, so you tell me.
>>12463554Yeah I own the game on original gold cart, Gamecube Zelda Collection, and on the Wii Virtual console, I am so un-good (and better at video games than you).
This is a brown thread. Remember to HIDE and SAGE brown threads.
>>12463584you forgot that the ai in oot is abysmal, while the ai in lttp actually tries to hurt you.
>>12463661This is a /pol/ post. Remember to deride such posts.
>>12463675Wouldn't call it abysmal...it works. But it's not good or challenging either.
ITT: anons who can't hit the targets in the Gerudo Fortress, yet think they're Neo because they beat Adventure for Atari 2600 on the easy setting.
>>12463683post hand. (You) wont
>>12463716>>12463698
>>12460295When games transitioned from 2D and 2.5D to full 3D, it became harder to put as many enemies on screen at once as before. Compare Doom II to Quake 1 or 2, and you'll see what I mean.
>>12463698what does player skill have to do with anything? you're very off topic.
>>12464179It's the entire topic, what are you talking about? Anons are acting like LoZ is harder than OoT, noting the "acting like"; OoT has many "high-density" situations, like boss fights and many different areas of temples, like in the forest temple.The anons arguing otherwise are just being dishonest, or at best, letting their nostalgia do the thinking instead of objective facts.
>>12464214>OoT has many "high-density" situations, like boss fights and many different areas of templesplease explain what EXACTLY you think "high-density gameplay" means.
Gameplay density has nothing to do with difficulty...
>>12464219It means a lot of crap on the screen trying to kill you.
>>12462428He also said he couldn't get to Super Mario Bros and has admitted preferring ADV games over action/arcade ones, and that og Zelda isn't the kind of game he'd make. The fact that a guy that detests the first games got to become producer for the series is fucking asisine, and it probably only happened because of Miyamoto.>>12462453Zelda II solos.
>>12464228Smash T.V. begs to disagree.
>>12464229thats not what it means at all. gameplay density is about how consistent and close together things to do are. something like mario bros has good gameplay density because there is constantly new obstacles, enemies, and/or pickups to engage with. movie-games like mgs4 that are filled with cutscenes have much lower gameplay density because it takes control away from the player and they do nothing. additionally, games that require a lot of empty walking back and forth (like some mmos) have poor gameplay density. oot has loads of empty hallways, hyrule field, really slow actions, and interrupting text boxes and cutscenes, which make the gameplay density far lower than its 2d predecessors. none of this has to do with "difficulty" or "challenge".none of this has anything to do with player skill.
>>12464238sports games like ice hockey are high density games without necessarily being "difficult" or "high intensity".
>>12464248>oot has loads of empty hallways, hyrule field, really slow actions, and interrupting text boxes and cutscenes, which make the gameplay density far lower than its 2d predecessors. It's an extremely weird thing to criticize the game for then because that's one of its strengths. The game has a lot of downtime, and that isn't a flaw at all because OoT is a highly immersive game filled with a huge variety of ways of interacting with it that encourages you to explore and find its many hidden elements, and so giving you breathing space to contemplate is an essential aspect of how it paces things. >>12462453 is mostly correctNow, it's totally fair to fault the game for having weak enemies and very few places with actually challenging combat, and that's conversely one of the biggest merits of the NES games in comparison. OoT's combat system is actually very well constructed and cinematic in a positive way, but this is wasted on the games mostly very passive enemies. Likewise the dungeons consist largely of basic puzzles strung together instead of something that is challenging in a holistic way and has demanding action that tests your endurance. At this point the only way to really experience the game's potential is to play it heavily modded, but even then there are no hacks that really overhaul the dungeons into something designed to be properly challenging, like an ideal master quest that aims to make the game more like the NES titles. This is something that I'm honestly considering doing myself at this point.
>>12464332>highly immersive gameautist detected.
>>12464248Finally someone that knows what the fuck Gameplay density is
>>12464332> >>12462453 is mostly correctlmao no he isnt. nobody that praises oot's combat is correct.>OoT's combat system is actually very well constructedfor babies maybe. but thats seems to be the running theme of the game: "oh man, are people even going to be able to mentally HANDLE 3d??? oh fuck, we had better make this as easy as POSSIBLE.">this is wasted on the games mostly very passive enemiesthe things that link "can" do IS wasted on the enemies and actual encounters. but that "potential" can not stand as a merit when it is never realized. you can attack an enemy that blocks/evades you to no end, so proactive combat is non-existent unless you pull out an item. without an item, you just stand there while the enemy dances around doing nothing, then you block or evade his one attack and hit him. then you repeat that until the enemy is dead. its brainless, slow, and dull. meanwhile, while 2d sword combat is very simple, enemies actually threaten you and are aggressive, and the enemies that require an item are few and far between, usually isolated to the dungeon where you need that item a lot so it makes sens to keep it on and not swap off. also the room itself plays a part in lttp combat, but zero part in oot combat. >the dungeons consist largely of basic puzzleswith extremely slow components. >At this point the only way to really experience the game's potential is to play it heavily moddedso, NOT the game itself. i accept your concession that it is lacking. wishful thinking and "yeah but IMAGINE what it COULD be like" is not an argument.
>>12464354It's the system mechanics I'm praising, because just acting like everything about the combat is bad is dishonest and ignores how actually big an advancement the game was able to pull off though its combat mechanics, which were more refined than prior combat systems in 3D action games and remained higher quality than even a lot that came after it.I feel like it's fair to praise the quality and very real advancements that it made, while rightly criticizing the way enemy and their AI were implemented. That's why I'm pointing out the potential, other 3D action adventures didn't have combat mechanics as sophisticated that would allow intricate combat scenarios to be made in them without vastly greater modification, OoT brought action adventures much closer despite failing to clinch a win by really taking advantage of its otherwise well refined mechanics, which allow 1v1 fights, test of ranged first person aiming, 'traditional' 2D battles with fixed camera where you engage with groups of enemies etc.
why the fuck are autistic dipshits replying "seriously" to this esl zoomer bait thread
>>12464369>ignores how actually big an advancement the game was able to pull off"good at the time" is not an argument. we all know that it was very novel and impressive at the time. however, the reality of the actual result does not hold up under scrutiny. "it was amazing... when we had nothing to compare it to and had never developed any personal standards" is not an argument to make. >I feel like it's fair to praise the quality the fact remains that it ISNT quality though. >advancementsirrelevant>potentialdoubly irrelevant. >otherwise well refined mechanicsthey serve the game but they are not "well refined". it is extremely primitive in the medium and wildly outclassed in all aspects by games that came out after it. but enough about the (lack of) quality of the combat. on the topic of gameplay density, even the combat itself is less dense. wait. attack. wait. attack. and the game is divided into combat sections and exploration sections. instead of combating enemies while you explore and navigate a space, you fight enemies in an empty room, then move to the next room to do a puzzle, then fight enemies in an empty room.
>>12464354>alttp combat is threateninglmao if you are 4 years old maybe
>>12464384>the reality of the actual result does not hold up under scrutiny.It does though. OoT holds up great.>>12464257True. Also true that high or low density doesn't necessarily mean good or bad.
>>12464384>"it was amazing... when we had nothing to compare it to and had never developed any personal standards" is not an argument to make.Good thing that's not at all the argument I'm making, as I'm instead arguing that it's still better designed than even modern combat systems that get more praise, like that of Dark Souls, since that game is more clunky and more reliant on RPG mechanics (so a given fight can rarely assume you have access to a given tool like Zelda can) and iframes that prevent collisions entirely that actually make it harder to offer the variety of fast paced combat that is possible in Zelda (which for instance does a better job of offering mechanics that have its dodges do distinct things, as different dodges alter your hitbox in ways that let you avoid being damaged by some attacks that others don't and visa versa, as its hurtboxes remain active).I'm praising the way it offers a well thought out balance in its mechanical design, where it's fast paced and responsive enough where an enemy can suddenly leap over you and force you to defend where you'd otherwise want to continue an attack string, but it's grounded and deliberate enough that you're not mashing out combos and hectically jumping across the screen like 6th gen action games. I'm specifically saying it's fundamentals are well designed in ways that haven't 'aged' or been flatly surpassed, and it's not something that actually got obsoleted by future games, even though its enemies mostly aren't aggressive enough to properly demonstrate this.
>>12464401yes. enemies pose direct threats because they actually approach you. are they generally dealt with very easily? also yes, but thats not the point. they actively approach and attack you, sometimes even with projectiles. oot enemies dance around doing fuck all, attack once, and go back to doing nothing. also you can just stand there with the shield and take zero damage. while both games are easy children's games, oot is objectively less threatening.
>>12464415>as I'm instead arguing that it's still better designed than even modern combat systems that get more praisethen you're objectively retarded and clearly do not know what you are talking about. >fast paced combat that is possible in Zeldalmao what a delusional world you live in.
>>12464438>then you're objectively retarded and clearly do not know what you are talking about.Use your big boy words and explain why he's wrong, instead of typing out a copout post like that.
>>12464439>explain to the troon what reality is and that he's actually a man>surely you will convince himwhen somebody is that willfully ignorant about things he is factually wrong about, its not really worth wasting time on. these are very simple and easily observable concepts, and he is in complete denial of objective and observable reality, just like a troon.
>>12464438What I'm taking about can and has been demonstrated though.https://youtu.be/8eb_oHDx37s?si=07UNXPckfkVyfk-z&t=823D Zelda can have attacks that can't all be avoided in the same way, forcing you to respect this and change up your defense. You can have fast paced, intricate sword duels where you want to mix up both how you attack and defend. You can have fast and physical 'chasing' in MM that utilizes the Goron form's ability to carry momentum across scenes. You can have horseback shootouts. You can even restrict movement and/or camera to make the game functionally equivalent to a 2D top down or side scrolling game (the first of which OoT does when you reach the Sacred Forest Meadow as a child, and there are hacks demonstrating the other), with the perspective benefits that gives you.What the game offers is extremely versatile and full of good design decisions, and future Zelda games added more on top of this.
>>12464469>What I'm taking about can and has been demonstrated though.your demonstration is a boss fight where you shoot an arrow, wait 3 seconds, chase for 3 more seconds, hit ONCE, wait 8-10 seconds at the edge of the arena, and repeat. oh yeah dude, such fast paced action. >no, i mean the youtube video1, not watching your slop.2, straight from the thumbnail it clearly says "MODDED", which completely and utterly invalidates any argument you might have about it. "but link can move/attack in this and that variety of ways" is COMPLETELY meaningless and worthless when there is nothing to use it on, and no real opportunity in the ACTUAL game's combat for such variety to make a difference. "the combat COULD HAVE BEEN good" and "the combat IS good" are two very different things. woulda/coulda/shoulda doesnt matter.
>>12464490I've consistency been claiming that the core mechanics are great in spite that the fights in the game aren't demanding enough to take advantage of this, and that this is notable enough to deserve praise. That is and has been my position and you can take it or leave it.
>>12464497it takes two parts to have combat, and when one part is garbage, the other part doesnt matter. the "core mechanics" are trash BECAUSE they dont matter. the ACTUAL core mechanics are what DOES matter, not what COULD matter. "link has cool/versatile moves" is irrelevant because the COMBAT (the actual two-party engagement) as it ACTUALLY IS is fucking garbage. "the combat is good because link's tools COULD be used in really cool ways" is not an argument for how it actually IS. so no, you're retarded.
>>12460295>Gameplay densityYou are such a faggot OP.
>>12464469The mechanics are basic but competent but the game highly prefers forcing the player to wait out temporary invisibility. The only way you can meaningfully break the wait patterns is an exploit which ties one attacks damage value to another.The most interesting thing the game does with sword combat is the vertical-horizontal swings, which see their ultimate usage in the second child dungeon as you find it's easier to hit bats when swinging vertically.
>>12464236His best quote was retelling the moment he got the job at Nintendo and then asked his girlfriend later "hey, uh, what's a video game anyway">>12463248Oh he's definitely some level of narcissist. There's an interview he did with GameSpy years ago where he's boasting about how much Shiggy loves puppets like the ones he made, and goes "You know, "Mario" got his name from "marionette"", to which the interviewer responds with "I always heard he was named after the landlord from Nintendo of America's building at the time"... and then Aonuma immediately backs down and goes "well there's LOTS of stories, some say it was a janitor or landlord or something, the one *I* know is marionette"
everthing is longer in 3D, even walk distances are long, towns are longer, dungeons are longer everything is far apart to mimic "realism", actions are longer, swing animations, dodge animations are long, 3D was a step backwards for gamers who like gameplay density
>>12464490>woulda/coulda/shoulda doesnt matter.Agreed. Funny thing is SS actually delivered on these promises, but we can all probably expect the immediate reply to this>idc because [...]so it's another case of generosity towards old game.
>>12460445keep your stupid comments in your pocket, stephen
>>12464248Great post, the only minor quibble is that "good" is subjective. Gameplay density is either high or low. The ocarina babies cry about immersion and stuff and its true that to some extent, there is a tradeoff there. You sacrifice gameplay for immersion. It's a matter of subjective taste whether you prefer engaging, high-density gameplay or walking simulation and passive cutscenes.
>>12464376Surprising number of anons have responded with understanding of high density gameplay. It's a legit topic. What sort of bait do you usually chomp on? Which thread should people post in, instead?
>>12464641>Funny thing is SS actually delivered on these promisesIt sure did with much shittier, puzzle-oriented combat and controls than Wii Sports Resort and Red Steel 2.
>>12464752>puzzle-oriented combatBrainlet being puzzled by SS combat lol
>>12464469This doesn't feel dynamic and fast though.Specially compared to something like Ninja Gaiden Black.
>>12464536>using your other items on enemies instead of waiting to hit them with your sword is an exploit the devs didn't intendwhat???
In fact...I would like a 3D Zelda that's more akin to something like Itagaki's Ninja Gaiden.Doesn't need to be SO fast but with more dynamic gameplay and with intricate enemy AI. You can do a lot of different things in modern Zeldas, but unlike NG, the enemy AI is dumb and the actual swordplay is very boring.Enemies linger around too much (aside from the Lynels).Almost all weapons feel like they're the same, moveset is too limited, flurry rush and parries make positioning almost pointless (they're like easy exploits), you can use bullet time to spam attacks, you can also eat while in combat without any kind of restriction (think something like Muramasa where you have a "Fullness" bar)...I think they'll won't make something more challenging though, they worry too much about catering to casual players.
>>12465281oot fans love to do this thing where they pretend to have no idea what you're talking about by demonstrating they have no idea what you're talking about.Terrible meta.
>>12465291>they worry too much about catering to casual players.and children. they make it for CHILDREN. you will never get a hardcore game from zelda.
>>12460295>>12462421If you re-read the Iwata Asks interview about OoT 3D, it's very clear that most of Zelda's problems started with this game. https://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/3ds/zelda-ocarina-of-time/1/1/>Koizumi: Oh, uh-huh. (laughs) As we were making Super Mario 64, we were thinking about The Legend of Zelda the whole time, and started talking about decreasing the action element in The Legend of Zelda and increasing the puzzle elements.>Iwata: When people talk about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, they mention various things like an epic story, solving puzzles, trotting across a broad field on a horse and how cool Link is, but it began with the single theme of making a Zelda game that included chanbara-style swashbuckling!At least you could sort of excuse it with "Well, it's the N64", but shit only got worse with Majora's Mask through Skyward Sword despite the better hardware.>>12462369>>12464248People (read: plebs) shit on the N64 Castlevanias, but I honestly think they do a better, more commendable job at this than the Zeldas. I tried continuing my old Majora's Mask save after recently replaying Legacy of Darkness through the new randomizer, and it felt disgusting to play in comparison. The gameplay (especially) in LoD actually feels free-flowing, the pacing is a lot brisker, and it is fun to navigate. It's something I see myself actually replaying in the future, whereas I have no desire to ever touch the Zeldas again unless it's some massively reworked hack.
>>12465751I think people who shit on n64 castlevanias are just fans of the 2D games and sotn in particular. CV64 vs Zelda64 doesn't compute for them.
>>12467405I actually dislike SotN and its ilk (CotM notwithstanding, for obvious reasons), like Classicvania, and think the N64 games are great. They actually feel like an honest attempt at what Classicvania would play like in 3D, and I really like how they actually use the available tech to fully implement all the horror elements the franchise is known for (whereas SotN really doesn't do anything meaningful with them). I can't imagine complaining about them being bad unless a person would just complain about Classicvania in general, or is just a tourist parroting whatever they heard from internet mobs. SotN and so on just feel like a completely different series.
>>12467424There are plenty of reasons to dislike sotn but failure to leverage horror elements really isn't one of them.
>>12460295Consoles did not have enough memory to have a shitload of enemies wobbling around on screen in the 64 days. They had to reduce things to one or two enemies per room, and then puzzles.
>>12467602>technological limitations resulted in inferior gameplay>surprisedpikachu.jpgits literally carried by the novelty of 3d at the time.
>>12467602Lol, like a good part of the reason I even saved this webm >>12464469 is to demonstrate exactly the opposite and show just how good the N64 can be at having large numbers of morphing, wobbling objects casting caustic shadows that actively interact with the . And this isn't even the wort fight in the same game that uses way more bubbles. It's certainly better at having tons of enemies on screen than the NES was.>>12465269>>12465291I specifically like that shit isn't so fast that shit will just leap across the screen at random like in NG and you have to be to be prepared to be blocking or jumping around vs whatever at any time. Enemies swarm around you and things aren't as structured as in action games where deliberate and planned positioning is a bigger focus. Dynamic action is good, but Itagaki NG takes things very far in this direction.
>>12468381a bunch of stationary entities, harmful or otherwise, is not "tons of enemies". bouncing and pre-scripted vectors is not the same as the movement actions/code for an enemy. while you are right that they are wobbling and "casting shadows" or whatever, they are not enemies.
>>12464737>retarded ESL dipshit posts his 3358917398th grammatically incorrect "WHY DID X Y?" thread.>iTs a lEgIt toPiczoomer shitstains need to be deleted
>>12469719Posters who ragepost greentext with alt-caps sarcasm are infinitely worse and did not exist on /vr/ before 2020. Nu-/vr/ cancer can't help but expose himself.
>>12467621Pretty much yeah. The selling point was that it was a big 3D world you can wander around in....and that was it. Kind of like how CGI scenes were fucking amazing novelty to have in a movie back in the early 90s...even if ti was overly shiny and weird looking, and did not match up with the characters on screen at all. It just looked cool and amazing to audiences at the time just for being CGI shit on screen.
>>12469719Ocarinababby seethe
>>12460295>gameplay densityis this another fake made up journalist term like ludo narrative dissonance and media literacy
>>12471530Those terms have meanings, too. Just because pseuds abuse them doesn't mean they can't also be used appropriately. If you are actually smart you'll be able to tell the difference. Though to be fair, ludo narrative dissonance is rarely that important and 'media literacy' is ripe for abuse by propagandists.Gameplay density is neither vague nor useless. It's an obvious and easily-measured property of any videogame, and one that speaks directly to the tastes of typical players.
>>12468381Which is every encounter feels different everytime. I prefer things this way rather than having everything become predictable.
>>12471624>ludo narrative dissonance is rarely that importantI agree but that didn't stop 2010s newgrounds comedians from making a "Why didn't Cloud just use phoenix down" joke for the millionth time.
>>12467602>Consoles did not have enough memory to have a shitload of enemies wobbling around on screen in the 64 days.Nintendo skill issue.>They had to reduce things to one or two enemies per room, and then puzzles.Nintendo skill issue.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1iMRG3pHNg
>>12472859Even though Final Fantasy V made a whole scene of the party using every curative they've got to revive permakilled Galuf with no effect.
