You play this for literally 10 seconds and you can already tell it's irredeemable garbage. Everything about it just feels like utter shit.Westerners (aside from Rare) were just so fucking bad at making any form of action game, platformer, or shooter.
>>12470575very Amigaesque
>>12470575Why are you playing 30 year old movie games. Theres better things to do
>shooterWesterners made fucking Doom
>>12470575Ironically, Westerners invented those genres (omitting shooters perhaps). They moved onto computers and made generally made games that were more simulation-focused. Compare Ultima and Wizardry to the JRPGs inspired by them. Japanese devs considered themselves toy makers.
>>12470575Pretty much, having a sega genesis as a kid was the epitome of "if it's a Japanese game it's very likely it will be good" and "If it's American it's very likely it will be shit.">>12470586Yeah pitfall...woohoo... nah fuck off, SMB might as well be the first platformer
>>12470575I have beat this game countless times and still love it. I traded a guy my Magic deck (which was mostly given to me for free) for his copy of Super Empire because he couldn't get past Dagobah. One of the best trades ever in my books, I love it too.
>>12470593>SMB is le first platformerDonkey Kong exists retard and predates Pitfall
>>12470586i think that's why the japanese were so successful at making compelling video games - their first focus is having fun; in contrast to many western developers who's first focus seemed to be signalling something to the player via plot or aesthetic.
>>12470575>Westerners (aside from Rare) were just so fucking bad at making any form of action game, platformer, or shooter.Maybe if your pool of reference is as shallow as a puddle.
>>12470682>no scrolling >fall damage >slow movementYes and SMB still defined platformers
>>12470586Maybe my tastes are too western, but I like a lot of those games more than Japanese ones. Comix Zone is one of my favorite Genesis games, Ecco the Dolphin is one of my favorite games ever made. Rogue compelled me more than just about any other game as a kid and there isn't a single Japanese made roguelike I think is great. I have always preferred Mortal Kombat over Street Fighter (though neither hold a candle to KoF). Countless countless hours in Jurassic Park and Rampage Edition fucking up humans as a raptor. Tomb Raider 1 still kicks ass in my books, Mario 64 never felt anywhere near as fun. And even though I had them both as pack ins, and liked the look of them, I barely ever played Sonic 1 and Super Mario World. Aside from the cantina boss which is bullshit, I still think Super Star Wars is a ton of fun. I hear most complaints that those games are too hard, but to me that's a big part of the appeal.
>>12470575Do you have any objective criticism?
>>12470586>WAITAMINUTE>Hold on here!>We invented the technology>...and we're losing a multi-billion dollar industry... to Artists and Toy Makers!??
>>12470760Go on, name these great western action games and platformers.I look forward to your list of shitty "Zed X" and "Amiger" that totally aren't just eurojank garbage
>>12470575I think the point of Super Star Wars was to show off the capabilities of the SNES. People played it at the toy store kiosk, so you knew what you were getting.
>>12470782>jump feels like clunky shit>enemies just pour out from every orifice of the screen>enemies have no hit reactions>you are locked into place when shooting >you are locked into crouch or standing depending on when you start shooting>the game showers you in health pickups from every enemy, seemingly designed to just constantly take damage>levels just consist of giant floating platforms slathered all around>poor readability on platforms and attacks, focus more on just looking more cinematic It's like these games were just made in a vacuum by devs who had never touched a Japanese game in their life. Japanese games focused on actually being satisfying to move and play with clear visual language and rewarding mastery. Western games just seem to want to look pretty and not much else, instead opting for challenge by just flooding the screen with spongy enemies and making you take tons of unavoidable damage.At some point in time, it did finally start to click for western devs, but you it definitely took a while... You can count the number of good western NES games not just with one hand, but basically one finger, and SNES isn't too far off either.
>>12470772To continue this because I feel like rambling and don't think much about whether the games I like are western or Japanese, the Japanese ones I do tend to like had a more western feel. We had Marios 1-3 and Castlevania 1-3 on NES and to this day have probably played the Castlevanias 10 times or so for every one time playing Mario. I loved Simon's Quest then, I still like it. Gaiares, Valis and Granada all felt like that too. I loved Final Fantasy because it felt like I was playing D&D with my friends, but not more than Wizardry or Bard's Tale.
>>12470575>Westerners (aside from Rare) were just so fucking bad at making any form of action game, platformer, or shooter.Thunder Jaws aka Rolling Clunkder
>>12470575>>12470586>>12470694This the weebshit cope thread? It's shocking how weebs are so delusional.>ommitting shooters perhapsNo, West invented shooters as well, retard. Spacewar! invented the genre, Spasim and Maze War invented the FPS genre. If you want to say, "Well, popularity wise they didn't become prominent until-" Nope. Tank in 1974 was a ground-breaking success in the arcade scene and largely was responsible for securing Atari's space in the video game world and drew major attention towards arcades and video games in general, being the best selling video game of 1974 and the second best-selling game of 1975.>they moved onto computers and generally made games that were more simulation-focusedAh yes, because nothing says "simulation" like King's Quest, Impossible Mission, and Monty on the Run (which were all hits, mind you).>Compare Ultima and Wizardry to the JRPG's inspired by themUltima and Wizardry are not "simulation" focused. They are "open-world" focused, which is where the distinction lies, as the JRPG's inspired by them are more linear and story-driven. Ultima 4 is still a better game than all first four Dragon Quest games.>i think that's why the japanese were so successful at making compelling video gamesThe US and Japan were both the primary video gaming behemoths. Pretending like they were the only ones successful at it when the US market dominated the industry for 30 years is bizarre.>their first focus is having fun; in contrast to many western developers who's first focus seemed to be signalling something to the player via plot or aesthetic.First off, pretending like the Japanese don't put aesthetic first, is fucking asshole shittingly hilarious. Like, I would shit my pants through my chair if I could laugh any fucking harder. Holy shit-balls Christ. Secondly, you're applying common criticisms of Western games now to games 30-40 years ago, showing me that you're an ahistorical zoomer. Stop talking.
>>12471045>Western games just seem to want to look pretty and not much else, instead opting for challenge by just flooding the screen with spongy enemies and making you take tons of unavoidable damage.This has to be bait.>You can count the number of good western NES games not just with one hand, but basically one finger, and SNES isn't too far off either.You being stuck in your comfort zone and being ignorant of the entire sphere of gaming as a whole, is not an adequate defense of Japanese gaming. Also, it's hilarious that you think "it did finally start to click for western devs" when the Japs have been copying the West for decades. Almost every single genre you can think of started in the West. The only exception I can think of being platformers. They even verbatim just straight up copied games wholesale, like they did for Resident Evil with Alone in the Dark.You are terminally weeb. Get some meds.
>>12470575i liked these games despite them being brutal. i guess i was just into star wars back then before it got destroyed. i probably used cheats too i would imagine.
>>12470575Oh look, its the Super Star Wars-fag, asshurt that he's bad at them, complaining and projecting his shittiness onto the games, dedicating an entire thread to gaslight everyone into thinking perfectly fun games were "shit".
>>12471273>>12471260>extremely western centric list where wikipedia just arbitrarily chooses games it considers the greatest>almost every western game there is shitty eurojank that aged like milk and has zero discussion or modern ports today>meanwhile the Japanese games are stone-cold timeless classics still played regularly today and re-released countless timesIt seems like they wanted to make an "inclusive" list and the near 50/50 balance between east and west just confirms it. For every Japanese classic, they had to wade through the sewage of western gaming to find a single one that isn't an irredeemable turd.Tell me how I know you're British and grew up with an Amiga and ZX Spectrum. You poor bastard.
>>12471260>Speedball 2 Brutal Deluxe>Lemmings>Micromachines>Sensible Soccer >Alone in the Dark>Flashback>Worms>Tempest 2000vs. >Fucking Super Metroid>Fucking Super Mario 64>Fucking Super Mario World>Fucking A Link to the Past>Fucking Sonic 2>Fucking Mega Man X>Fucking Chrono TriggerYou can not be serious right now.
>>12471301>>extremely western centric list where wikipedia just arbitrarily chooses games it considers the greatestWRONG. It's a list backed up by having at least 5 reputable first-party publisher lists of "best games".>>almost every western game there is shitty eurojank that aged like milk and has zero discussion or modern ports todayNo one cares about your fagtarded niggertard retard opinion on them, fagboy. You can call them "golem-slop" for all I care, because no one does. That's how they're viewed, and that's that. Nothing you can do or say to change reality kiddo.>>meanwhile the Japanese games are stone-cold timeless classics still played regularly today and re-released countless timesAh yes, stone cold timeless classics that no one plays anymore. Meanwhile Japan is still making clones of the original Wizardry to this very day:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizardry_(video_game_series)#Standalone_Japanese_games>It seems like they wanted to make an "inclusive" list and the near 50/50 balance between east and west just confirms it. Correlation =/= causation.>For every Japanese classic, they had to wade through the sewage of western gaming to find a single one that isn't an irredeemable turd.Seething cope, lmao. Your dumbed-down Japanese child's toy equivalent of Western magnum opus masterpieces of technological perfection are garbage, kiddo. Just deal with it.>Tell me how I know you're British and grew up with an Amiga and ZX Spectrum. You poor bastard.American, and older than you, and grew up with an N64, and god did that console suck nigger dicks out of a shit-ass.
>>12471310>fucking>fucking>fucking>fuckingLook at this 10 year. Thinks if he adds "fucking" it makes them sound more epic, lmao. Funny how you didn't mention Doom, Mortal Kombat, NBA Jam, Mechwarrior 2, TIE Fighter, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Command and Conquer, Age of Empires, or "FUCKING" Goldeneye. The weeb cope is real. Keep dreaming kiddo.
>>12471045Only one objective criticism in that list is valid (poor readability on some platforms). The rest is just you wanting the game to be a different type of game than what it is.
>>12471318one thing i hate is a podcaster who inserts four letter words in every sentence
I have another boring work day watching a prototype machine to make sure it doesn't break down or catch fire and this thread inspired me to spend the time doing another playthrough since it's been a while. I still think it's a ton of fun, running through blasting womp rats and storm troopers. I suppose I'm supposed to feel bad that I love this game and find Mario boring but ohh well.
>>12471318Master of Magic is 1996 iirc
>>12471310Tempest 2000 Fucking fuck yes. God damn that game is pure bliss
>>12470575Side scrollers and beat-em-ups seemed to suffer from not-invented-here syndrome.
>>12471310Because comparing the puzzle games listed against the action games is completely reasonable and not at all biased.
>>12471318>Doom, Mortal Kombat, NBA Jam, Mechwarrior 2, TIE Fighter, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Command and Conquer, Age of Empires, or "FUCKING" Goldeneye. Because those are actually good western games maybe..? Same with DKC*most* of the western games on that list are junk though, and far below the quality and timeless nature of the Japanese games on that list. Check any user review aggregate for those games, and I guarantee the Japanese games are at least 2 points higher on average on a 10 point scale.Your picture just proves my point. Critics can call some shitty yearly football game a masterpiece and wikipedia can throw it on some arbitrary list, but by nearly every metric, Zelda is a better game that is higher quality, better designed, better reception, aged better, more impact, and has stood the test of time, still played and released regularly to this day
>>12471321Wanting it to be good when it's shit? Yes
I can't say I ever loved Japanese ports of Western PC games (the NES has a number of those). The Famicom port of Maniac Mansion led LucasArts to shake their heads and go nah we can do better ourselves.
>>12471310The super irony of this is I love Lemmings, Flashback, Worms and Tempest. Meanwhile Super Metroid was fun and I liked Chrono Trigger well enough for a jrpg but have almost zero like or interest in the others. Which isn't to say it's wrong to like the second list over the first, but it's highly subjective.
>>12471301>almost every western game there is shitty eurojank that aged like milk and has zero discussion or modern ports todaySay what? That list is mostly American games the only Euro ones there are Elite and Ninja Gaiden.
>>12471341MM is also probably the best Western-developed NES game, most of the rest fall short by a long distance. Ron Gilbert even called it the definitive port of the game.
>>12471335>*most* of the western games on that list are junk though,Nah, they're all GOAT classics.>and far below the quality and timeless nature of the Japanese games on that list.Nah, Streets of Rage 2 is outdated horse shit, and Final Fantasy Tactics sucks ass.> Check any user review aggregate for those gamesWho gives a shit about user reviews? >and I guarantee the Japanese games are at least 2 points higher on average on a 10 point scale.Sad cope.>Your picture just proves my point.Proves my point that weebshit is overrated because it comes from Japan.>Critics can call some shitty yearly football game a masterpiece and wikipedia can throw it on some arbitrary list, but by nearly every metric, Zelda is a better game that is higher quality, better designed, better reception, aged better, more impact, and has stood the test of time, still played and released regularly to this day>better receptionExcept I just proved you wrong that it had a worse reception, lmao. The weeb cope is outta pocket in this thread, no cap frfr
>>12470578Star Wars is not a Euro game it was done by the friendly Mormons at Sculptured Software. Too bad they sucked cock.
>>12470772The Mega Drive's library was heavily Western anyway.
NES Top 50 highest rated games, literally only one western game on the list (Maniac Mansion). Fucking pathetic.(excluding Battle Kid as that is a modern homebrew game)
>>12471348Yeah not sure what Anon was talking about MM NES was a blast.
SNES Top 50 highest rated games. Only 5 western games here, only 2 when you exclude Rare's DKC.Also Rendering Ranger R2 is legit garbage, eurojank dogshit at its finest. The game looks beautiful but plays like straight ass. I think this one is only highly rated because it was considered a "hidden gem" and one of the best looking games on the platform.
>>12471348Westerners didn't get to NES development until fairly late in its run, and after Japan was moving on to the next-gen consoles and a lot of those games are licensed slop done mostly for money.
>>12471358Which is probably why I liked it more. I had both, but my SNES collection was about maybe a fifth the size of my Genesis, and it was stuff like the Super Star Wars games, Mortal Kombat, Metal Warriors. Also Castlevania and Super Metroid, but even though I got Super Mario World with it I've still barely ever played it, same with Sonic 1. Sonic 2 seems to have been included in almost every Genesis collection which I've bought many of over the years but I have never even once played it.
>>12471361Tengen Ms. Pac-Man was pretty good anyway.
>>12471335>Check any user review aggregate for those games, and I guarantee the Japanese games are at least 2 points higher on average on a 10 point scale.The classic "popular = best" which is widely mocked when referring to anything from games to music to movies to anything, except when the person advocating for them likes what's popular. Then it's objective fact. Nintendo first party games are usually easy and aimed towards children, of course they're usually going to be popular.
>>12471382User reviews/ratings =/= popularity buddy
>>12471383Sure, sure.
Western devs were never enthusiastic about Nintendo back then, there's plenty of interviews with programmers about this. They didn't like their hardware, usually considered it outdated/inadequate and didn't like dealing with NOA. The generally mediocre results of Western NES/SNES games tends to prove it. On the other hand everyone loved the Mega Drive, there was a lot more enthusiasm for it and probably Sega's more badass image helped.
>>12471390American megadrive games were still shit compared to Japanese ones though?
I actually really enjoy Super Star Wars and just replayed it. I know that's 100 percent nostalgia though. The presentation is good. People say it's hard but it really isn't. It's tedious. There's a difference. I could beat it as a kid and I sucked.
idk why the 16-bit era had such a overkill of licensed games. it seems like two thirds of everything released 91-95.
>>12471369top 50 highest rated Mega Drive games?
>>12471460those are also mostly Japanese releases except the two Earthworm Jim games and Aladdin
>>124714606/50 are western games (but NBA Jam is there twice with Tournament Edition)
>>12471318>The weeb cope is real. Keep dreaming kiddo.extremely true, but be careful - the resident weeb mod will have a meltdown if you keep it up
>>12471470I almost wanted to say Garfield: Caught in the Act but the PC version is the definitive one not the Mega Drive game.
>>12471470The Incredible Hulk and The Ooze were at least worth including for Western games that were pretty good
PSX: 2/50 are western (Crash 3 and CTR)N64: 14/50 are western. If you do only top 30, it's only 6 (all 6 of which are from Rare)
>>12471369Looking at this list, the first 8 games particularly and then a lot of the rest are all quite easy. People tend to like games they beat, so what ranks highly is going to be skewed by that. This list >>12471470is similar, that's just how popularity works.
>>12471470Muttbros not like this...
>>12471436What did you find tedious about it? I played through about half of it this morning >>12471326 before having to get other work done, tedious is the last thing I'd say about it. It was constant blasting and jumping just like I remember.
>>12471361If you ever saw Japanese lists they tend to be skewered towards early NROM/CNROM Famicom releases and would probably have Xevious at #1.
>>12471493>PSX: 2/50 are western (Crash 3 and CTR)where's Spyro and Tomb Raider?
>>12471493>PSX: 2/50 are western (Crash 3 and CTR)What happened to all the other crash games?
>>12471528I missed Spyro 1&2 so it should be 4/50Tomb Raider (II) doesn't appear until 175
>>12471532Crash 2 is #55 and Crash 1 is #189 (I prefer them the complete opposite, Crash 1 > 2 > 3 for me, and I think Crash 1 is top 3 on PSX)
>>12471493No Twisted Metal?
Im not reading this thread full of shitflinging autistsbut yeah, western console devs didn't really figure out good gameplay until the PS2 era. I think Rare is overrated as fuck too. And typically the very best Western games are already copying the homework off Japanese game design documents.And Western PC devs didn't have good action gameplay except for the FPS genre, which they dominated because Japan gets motion sick by First Person games. Im sure if Japan cared back then they would have made better FPS,
>>12470586>They moved onto computers andI tell you what's funny. Any C64 top game list is 90% American releases and hardly any Euro games.
>>12471545Nah, DKC trilogy and Banjo are stone cold classics
>>12471470No >Ranger X>Gaiares>Comix Zone>Ecco>Granada>Ys 3>Space Harrier>Herzog Zwei>Fantasy Zone>Humans>Jurassic Park But it does have>6 pack>Sonic Classics>NBA Jam twiceBut we're supposed to take it seriously because sales popularity and ratings....
>>12471550They are 8/10 at best. Spyro 2 was a better collect-a-thon than any 3d Rare game. Goldeneye sucks dick. Killer Instinct is a somehow even shittier MK and MK already was shit. Jet Force Gemini is a garbage fire. NES battletoads is their best game. DKC lacks the depth of Mario, it's just really hard for the sake of being hard and people are nostalgic about the music
>>12471369the US SNES library in general was underwhelming and many of its best games never got out of Japan
>>12471553>NES battletoads is their best gameI can't say Beetlejuice was a great game play-wise but the audiovisuals are charming and have a lot of personality.
>>12471557>best gamesEh, maybe for J-Rpgs. Action and platformers made it out to the US just fine. I cant even think of Japan only amazing games except Umihare and...Do-Re-Me fantasy? I have no idea. Give me some games
>>12471513Jumping up the sand crawler. The penultimate level where you're getting to the tractor beam. The relentless respawning enemies on every single screen. You can't really avoid taking constant hits but you're not in immediate danger of dying from them. So you just slowly grind and chip forward in a slow war of attrition. I think tedious is a fine description of the gameplay.
>>12471562>I cant even think of Japan only amazing games except Umihare and...Do-Re-Me fantasy? I have no idea. Give me some gamesMagical Pop'N?
>>12471551That's a pretty mediocre list of games.Here is another list from the current biggest user review aggregate in the world, still massively overwhelmingly Japanese.
>>12471568the real issue was these three games were late SFC releases so they didn't get here. if they'd come out in 93 maybe there'd be a chance.
too bad we didn't get SNES Might & Magic 2 although it had two completely different Japanese and Euro versions
>>12471561NES Battletoads by far is the closest a western retro dev ever came to matching the quality of say a Megaman or a Castlevania. The level design is great, the controls are snappy and fun.The biggest problem so many fucking western devs have with game design is being literally incapable of understanding level design is like the primary fundamental of games design. So many Western games are loosely cobbled together garbage abstract mishmash of platforms, with confusing maze-like pathways in a uninspired backgrounds.The best japanese 2d games have so much focus on playtesting their stages and making sure they account for multiple playstyles and that they are fun and interactive with a touch of discovery and strategy
>>12471568are you really surprised loli games didn't make it to America? Anyways I am doubtful of it's actual quality, I will have to play it and see if it actually holds up as a "best of the console" game
>>12471553Spyro 2 is a collection of a bunch of shitty minigames, it was a huge downgrade from Spyro 1, and Spyro 1 was nowhere near as good as Banjo Kazooie.Banjo Kazooie is still the peak of collectathon to this day, really intricately detailed, unique, and memorable worlds with a great blend of platforming, puzzle, and exploration, a ton of humor and charm, with a killer soundtrack. >the depth of Mariowhat depth? A slightly different acceleration profile? DKC is not even a hard game at all either. >people are nostalgic about the musicand the artstyle, and the characters, and the charm and humor, and the fun bossfights, and the flow and satisfaction of mastering a level, and all the secrets and collectibles, and the incredibly unique, varied, and creative levels, and the top-notch level design and platforming. You're just spewing bullshit left and right.
there are times like with the NES Simpsons games where you feel the dev team was ambitious and really believed in the project, but they didn't quite have the talent to make it work
>>12471553>Spyro 2 is goodtoddler brained
>>12471576>make it to AmericaEven with The Krion Conquest the devs were skeptical about a female MC as they assumed most Famicom players were boys who didn't want to play as a girl.
>>12471578Spyro is a fast paced slick platformer with an actually decent camera. The simple act of headbutt charging around everywhere super fast is inherently fun. Banjo is slow, awkward, with tons of dead time. If I wanted such an open ended collectathon I want the movement and physics to be fun like Mario 64. But Banjo just feels like trash and his moveset is not fun at all.
>>12471338No, that is my point. You are not persuasive. I'm open minded and was curious to know whether you had any self-awareness and ability to actually criticize games, and from your post I can safely conclude you do not.You are just a sub-sentient cretin who can only kneejerk spew emotional reactions.
The worst PS1 game I ever owned was Tail of the Sun and it's Japanese, so...
>>12471589>the game with the worst camera on earth>and some of the most bland and empty levels >that makes you replay each level 6 times>with some of the most nonsensical and frustrating physics >where you accelerate like a van, turn like a boat, ricochet off walls like a bouncy ball, struggle to walk up a slight incline, and with literal invisible walls scattered throughout levels>with a dozen different jump variants when all you want is a fucking camera that is actually looking where you're going instead of shoved up Mario's asshole >is somehow better than Banjo KazooieI swear Mario64fags are not fucking human
>>12470575SSW is by far the weakest of the trilogy, it sometimes feels like it's made by different people with how unpolished it is compared to Super Empire or Super Return.
>>12471594Mario 64 has a bad camera. Every other argument you made is a skill issue. Mario 64 has freedom of movement limited only by how far you reach the skill ceiling. Banjo has no skill ceiling, it's controls and physics are inherently vastly limited. They made Mario 64 for enthusiast adults and simple kids. Again, western devs could not figure this shit out until they copied Japanese devs. Japanese devs make games that are fun to themselves first, as nintendo actually hires gamers to make games.
>>12471589Spyro is barely a platformer beyond simply having platforms. The platforming is incredibly easy and basic and it's much more an exploration-focused game (like Banjo) except the stage designs and puzzles are a lot less interesting (the collectibles are usually just laid out right in front of you), and the stages are much less varied and unique. It's more of a cozy game, which is fine, but definitely not of the same caliber of Banjo. Banjo's movement is functional over flashy. He may not have a dozen different pointless jump variations like Mario 64, but at least the camera is halfway decent, you can actually see where you're going, and Banjo doesn't control like a fucking barge, he doesn't take multiple seconds to accelerate and decelerate, he doesn't bounce off walls like he's a rubber ball, and he's actually able to walk up minor slopes. Now if you compare world layout, level designs, soundtrack, artstyle, exploration, bossfights, etc. Banjo leaves Mario in the dust. Mario 64 is basically a glorified tech demo though, so it's not even really a fair comparison.
>>12471348Captain Planet was ok if a little sadistic.
TIE-Fighter was on my top-5 GOAT list until well into the 2000s. Only a handful of the best console games even come close.The Star Wars SNES game is a solid 8/10. Very fun to just pick up and play. Great music, sound effects, and gameplay. Level design isn't 10/10 but it's not terrible or anything. Biggest complaint from me is that I don't like the mode 7 shit.
I agree that America was always king as far as PC games went, once in a while Euros had a moment or two of greatness like with X-COM but usually they were always well behind us.
>>12471609Again, Mario 64 is still being played by a large community, who still makes mods and levels, who keep figuring out new nuanced ways to speedrun, etc. Because it's controls and physics are timeless. When you give people a large amount of control over their freedom of movement and the game is difficult yet satisfying to master, that is something typically only achieved by Japanese developers, and something only culturally understood by Japanese developers.Banjo in comparison is a very small, niche community. And it's "Fans" are typically only people who remember playing it in their youth and don't actually care about it in a modern context.Im not saying Spyro is great, but Insomniac did a much better job of creating polished, fast controls. So even if Spyro 1 and 2 is technically smaller and less platform heavy, it's just simply gratifying to explore the damn levels because it feels tight and polished. Its almost like they cared about games design.Rare in my opinion never really cared about game design the same way Japanese devs did. Their games always come off as sloppy and more about graphics and aesthetics than pure gameplay. I would like to take this instance to say that Super Turrican is a great western developed game, much better that Super Star Wars
>>12471361where's Silver Surfer?
>>12471617Mario 64 romhacks are not Mario 64. Mario 64 has a unique feel and moveset because it was one of the first 3D games and the devs spent an excessive amount of time tweaking that (at the expense of the camera, level layout, and enemy designs, which are pretty much shit). I don't really see how people enjoy Mario 64's movement because it is not realistic or consistent or coherent, but it is different than pretty much any other 3D game out there, so that's probably why. I mean it *is* high skill ceiling, but not for the right reasons, only because it's awkward to control, doesn't really control in a logical manner, and is extremely jank (which is somehow seen as a positive to autists who loves this "speedrun tech"). Mario 64 fans tend to be highly autistic so that probably has a great deal to do with it. Also Banjo was re-released on Xbox 360 and Rare Replay. People still enjoy it very much to this day and replay it regularly. It has held up exceptionally well, as it is a well-designed game instead of just a tech demo.
The first cartridge-based game console was the Fairchild Channel F in 1976. Japan had none until the Famicom. That is it took them seven years to catch up.
>>12471625At least Mario 64 autists are good at games and only care about the gameplay. They don't give a fuck about the context of everything else.You sound like one of those really weird hyper fixated autistic people yourself, who has to put down clearly more popular and well received games because its set opposite of your more niche IP. Similar to Sonic fans. But at least Sonic has some good games. Personally I dont give a shit about as much about IPs. I just know when a game feels good to play and when it does not. Banjo didn't feel good to play. It felt like the only thing it has going for it is charm, and maybe a variety of level themes. But Banjo in comparison to basically all the other early 3d mascot platformers at the time feels very childish and meant only for kids. Its like Teletubbies or something. Spyro and Crash have more universal appeal because they aren't bombarding you with obnoxious kiddie music and toddler character design and voices.
>>12471565Missed jumps on the sandcrawler and the like I get, maybe from having played it so much and being used to the jumps it's not much of a problem. As for the damage and health ups, I quite like that. Especially on Jedi, damage can add up pretty fast and with enemies everywhere getting hit is kind of inevitable but I've always played by rushing through blasting like crazy and then going for hearts as needed balancing pushing forward with not dying. I find it really fun. I can see if one was trying to do a no damage run or something it could be annoying and tedious but I don't play it like that. Different tastes I think, I know it's popular and tons of people love it, Mario games to me feel tedious as heck and just boring. Ecco the Dolphin which most people flat out hate is solidly in my top 10 of all time and it's a similar vibe of rushing through, ramming and sonaring enemies in the way trying not to drown while inevitably getting hurt and then eating a school of fish to replenish.
there's also the NES Star Wars games and they're just as brutal
>>12471630No, at a minimum Japan already had the Bandai Supervision and Cassette Vision.
>>12471647Spyro is for kidsMario is for all agesBanjo is for teens/adultBanjo uses cute characters but they're contrasted by their rude and crass behavior and adult humor. It's much more akin to something like robot chicken or south park or rick and morty than... teletubbies?? Like seriously have you even played the games?
>>12471647You seem to conflate gameplay as only meaning movement. Camera, level design, enemy design, boss design, puzzles, pacing, artstyle, music, etc. are all part of gameplay and range from mediocre to terrible in Mario 64
>>12471516A lot of those games are pretty bad though, proof not everything Japan touches turns to gold. You really don't want to play Transformers: Comvoy no Nazo or Astro Robo Sasa.
>>12471569I'm not talking about the Japan / western split, most of the games I listed are Japanese as well. But those lists look more like sales charts than anything and seem skewed towards what got the most magazine coverage at the time. Ranger X is a fantastic asd game that I only remember even seeing in Gamefan and is subsequently almost totally forgotten. I don't want to rag on Gunstar Heroes, it's good fun but I think it got a lot more attention than it's quality.
>>12470772>Ecco the Dolphin is one of my favorite games ever made.>Rogue compelled me more than just about any other game as a kid>>12471123>I loved Simon's Quest then, I still like it.
>>12471341what did you guys do to Ghostbusters?
>>12471671>>12471663some Japanese games are kusoge, yes. but if you compare Western developed console games it's like 80-90% shit.
>>12471670>Ecco the Dolphin is one of my favorite games ever madePretty based ngl
>>12471674Don't ask me where it went wrong considering all the classics we made on PC back then.
>>12470575i love the palette
>>12471654Banjo is easily the most immature of the 3 once you're an adult
>>12471370i have to say it's pretty bad if the list of worthwhile Western-developed NES games just consists of:>Maniac Mansion>Battletoads>Tengen Ms. Pac-Man>Captain Planet>maybe Bart vs. The World?
>>12471706Silver Surfer I guess.
Are there bad Western platformers? Sure.Is Super Star Wars perfect? No. Is it BAD? Not at all, it's a good game.>>12471436>It's tediousPlease explain the difference, because that describes the majority of hard games. Keep replaying it until you find out the secrets, tricks, and precise timings, and you're good to go.
>>12471670Your opinion means a so much to me. I know a ton of people absolutely loved the sitcom Friends, I never did. Just how I get a ton of people love Mario and Zelda. It's popularity has never been able to convince me I was having fun playing it when it bored me to tears. So it goes.
>>12471720I don't know man... that stage right before you get the lightsaber... those tunnels of endless sandpeople and womp rats spawning in an inch in front of you and an inch behind you at the same time for all eternity as you inch forward and the SNES slows down. There's no ebb and flow to the levels. The relentless pace of the enemy spawns becomes tedious for me. I still like the game overall for the vibe, but it's a once every 5 years type of game for me.
They released all the SNES Star Wars games in Japan, no idea how they're seen there.
>>12471809Why are you inching forward? I think that might be the issue. You're not supposed to stand there trying to clear the level of every tuskan raider, blast the ones in your way, grab the hearts they drop and keep going. I played that level this morning, it's like 3 or 4 minutes long and it's action the whole time.
>>12471045Western devs includes Atari, Williams, and Midway, and Id. those groups did know how to make games that play satisfying to feel.The groups you're talking about are a specific sub-group of eurojank devs.
This is a pretty alright game. The sequel is real shit though. Easily one of the hardest and most unfair games on SNES. Hope you can just luck your way through the Falcon flying stage.
>>12472225>The groups you're talking about are a specific sub-group of eurojank devs.I dunno man, Imagineering, Sculptured Software, Radical Entertainment, and Beam Software were all godawful and they weren't Euros.
Too many Western games from the cartridge era feel like lazy cash grabs and not a labor of love.
>>12471310What are you, six years old? You think that's how people talk?
>>12471545>Japan gets motion sick by First Person gamesThis seems like an exaggeration that people push as fact, despite the amount of nip-developed games that use a first-person perspective.
>>12471361>>12471369>>12471470>using GameFAQs user rankings as a sourcelollmao even
>>12472420>caring about anyone's game rankings except your ownlollmao even
>>12472420You can't deny it's an incredibly reasonable list though. For example Dragon Quest 3&4 easily outrank the NES Final Fantasy games, as they rightly should.
>>12471617>Mario 64 is still being played by a large community, who still makes mods and levels, who keep figuring out new nuanced ways to speedrun, etcYou have a point, but that's basically that Mario 64 is to the N64 what Doom is to PC gaming, AKA a concept demo/custom hack engine that people made their own thing out of even if the base game is basic.And the core game is really basic and hacked together, definitely not close to as good as Banjo. I'm actually shocked they never made a direct sequel on the 64 itself that improved things.
they were new to 3D and the ROM is only 8MB
>>12470575I owned this game and I think the 2nd one too when I was younger. They were ok. I remember the inside of the sandcrawler stage being really annoying
>>12471310Worms and Lemmings were god tier but I generally agree with the others. There are a lot of unmemorable western games in this list that were mediocre even in their time; they look out of place lined up along side so many games still considered timeless classics today (eastern and western).
>>12471484The Ooze, yeah, it's really unique but also stupid fucking hard and pretty barebones. From what I heard it was a tech demo that got rushed into a full game in the twilight days of the console. It should've gotten a password system and a proper ending sequence, at the very least.Incredible Hulk, not so much. It was a decent platformer but it was also full of bullshit, chief amongst them is that you could only use your proper moves when you found some hidden powerup that pushed your health beyond its maximum, and if you got hit more than a few times you losed all of that.And the whole thing with the Hulk losing strength after being hit, kind of did not jibe at all with the Hulks powers. Getting hit would just make him angrier and stronger, not turn him back to Bruce Banner.>>12471479Garfield had really troubled development, their programmers couldn't cut the mustard and they had a tight deadline. Some levels they could not finish or get them to be fun to play and had to axe them. The Alien level probably got axed only because it required too much space on the cart.Then some PR exec told them to make the game start with the Dracula level, which was one of the worst ones in the game.Maybe they should've made it a late Sega CD release, so they could have the missing levels intact and keep the CD Audio, like what the PC release did.
>>12471310Lemmings came out in like 1991, and was a microcomputer darling.Worms was an absolute blast and was ported to everything, it sold in insane amounts.What I don't get on that list is Sensible Soccer, but I suppose it predated EA's Fifa so it probably wasn't hard to become a defacto sports game.
>>12473325Garfield was 16 megabits and they used every last available byte so there was no room for an additional level. Perhaps it didn't help that Paws, Inc. strictly micromanaged them which was not the norm for licensees at the time.
>>12473093Also has Zelda top 3 at least. So many user ranking sites have Zelda at like only 60th percentile which is just insane, it was incredible for its time and still holds up extremely well today. It's just timeless foundational design and absolutely nails the fun and wonder of exploration and dungeon crawling
i think the Garfield team weren't that good and lacked the talent to program the game the way they wanted it to be
>>12471310What a strange thread this is where pointing out the obvious gets a ton of replies trying to argue as if we exist in bizarro world. Granted you have obvious faggots baiting with "weeb cope" and the like.I agree that prefacing each of the JP titles with "fucking" is a bit silly but all of those games are instant classics up against fun enough timewasters like Lemmings. Looking at the list supposedly filled with amazing western games has so many mediocre titles it's unreal. There's some gems like Doom that are every bit as good as what the Japanese were putting out but id was already slipping in quality with Quake. The Japs started slipping in quality during the 2000s but this is about the golden age.
>>12473354on that subject, try the Famicom Garfield game if you think every Japanese title is classic
>>12470575Super atar wars games were excellent. Ops game was nominated for game of thebyear by EGM i believe. They were very successful games overall.They are simply too hard for zoomers though. People under 30 probably cant even clear the sandcrawler level without saved states.
>>12473897The NES ones are just as unforgiving.
>>12473824>There's some gems like Doom that are every bit as good as what the Japanese were putting out but id was already slipping in quality with Quake. Doom crippled itself with the weak story, but that non ending for Quake is one of the worst things ever put in a video game.
>>12473960You have to be fucking joking that you care about the story in fucking Doom and Quake.
they were going to do a NES game for the entire OT but the NES market was coming to a close by the time they would have started work on ROTJ so the series was moved to the SNES
>>12473961I care about the story in Super Metroid, diddy ahh blud.
>>12473897>They were very successful games overalli mean anything with Star Wars on the box would have sold a million copies in the early 90s especially since the franchise hadn't yet been tainted by the prequels
>>12470575Mad because bad?
>>12473963Sad.
>>12473964You also need to look at things in historical perspective. In 1992 SNES had no other run and gun besides contra 3, which was praised fornits mode 7 effects and then starbwars took it further. SNES was overall starved for action games overall up to this point in north america with Super Mario world carrying the entire console up to this point until SF2 became the new killer app. Super Star wars was the action game the system needed and it was a really big deal. Genesis in early days also lacked good run and gun action games. Revenge of shinobi and midnight resistance? And shinobi was a very slow and deliberate game that was just as difficult with janky platforming. The genre really hadnt taken off yet in the early 16 bit era.Sunset riders, gunstar heros and super turrican arrived in 1993 and were more polished additions to the genre, 1994 for contra hard corps (best contra ever) and 1995 saw metal slug. But 1992 was star wars year to shine.
>multiple levels with varied settings>does a decent enough job following the plot progression of the film>varied gameplay without feeling like a random mishmash, a la Earthworm Jim 2>good graphics that do a good job representing the source material >good music>finding powerups is extremely satisfying >gameplay is difficult, and yes some parts can indeed be a bit janky, but overall it is a fun gameI really fail to see how the SSW games are bad. I think they really nailed it with Jedi. Yeah they backed off a bit on the difficulty, but I'd say it was to its benefit.
>>12474159While I'll agree Sculptured Software's NES efforts were pretty bad, they did improve on the SNES probably as their teams gained more experience.
>>12474117Ironically the games probably would have had a better reception if they were made for Genesis which tended towards harder and more action focused titles.
>>12474159it's less that they're bad specifically and more that they're evocative of all the general tendencies that made western sidescrolling design subpar compared to the japs. sloppy controls, annoying clusterfuck enemy/obstacle design, hard to distinguish foreground interactables, etc.
>>12474313>general tendencies that made western sidescrolling design subpar compared to the japs. sloppy controls, annoying clusterfuck enemy/obstacle design, hard to distinguish foreground interactables, etc.You just described Konami though
>>12474649I would bet money that his opinion is that Nintendo game design is objectively the best ever and how good or bad a game is, is based on how much not like a Nintendo game it is.
>>12474649TMNT was clearly a very rushed game they probably knocked out in 4 months to milk the license as fast as possible, it needed more fine tuning.
the programmers were well-compensated for their slop though since it was Konami policy to give a pay bonus to the team with the biggest selling game. so the TMNT guys got unfair bragging rights over the Castlevania, Gradius etc teams.
>>12474292Sculptured were already NES guys so it was easier to transition to the SNES rather than a totally alien architecture none of the programmers were familiar with.
>>12473332>Perhaps it didn't help that Paws, Inc. strictly micromanaged them which was not the norm for licensees at the time.They had a large design document for the game but a lot of it got cut because it didn't make for a fun game, or they couldn't get it done so it's fun to play (Catsablanca train), or they didn't have the cart space (Alien Landscape, the viking level).>>12473354>i think the Garfield team weren't that good and lacked the talent to program the game the way they wanted it to beThe main programmer knew his shit. The train level was done by some poor programmer who couldn't hack it and got fired later.But, there was a previous team who couldn't get the game done and they got replaced, basically rebooting the programming mid-way through. So they had to do everything in half the time and the game ended up pretty rough. One of the programmers was interviewed and said that if they had more time, the game could've been them programming a fun Garfield game, instead of them trying to just make things work and calling it a Garfield game.>>12473824>I agree that prefacing each of the JP titles with "fucking" is a bit sillyIt makes you sound like some braindead douchebag. Like if you heard any interviews with Kevin Smith, that's how he talks in real life. I used to talk a bit like that too, but hearing his interviews made me realize how really, really annoying it is to actually talk like that.Looks all fun and games when written down but comes off as really annoying when read.
>>12474768Once in a while maybe, but when you use 2-3 swears in every sentence it gets extremely obnoxious.
i only remember the programmers mentioning that the Genesis had a lot of limitations and they used up the entire ROM and had no more space left for additional levels. ie. you think 16 megabits is a lot of space (and it probably was seen that way since it was just a handful of years after the Atari era with 8, 16k etc ROMs) but it really isn't.
>>12470575It was a fun game. You suck cock and your thread is bad.
>>12471545>but yeah, western console devs didn't really figure out good gameplay until the PS2 era. I think Rare is overrated as fuck too. And typically the very best Western games are already copying the homework off Japanese game design documents.Trying to samefag, pretending you're a different person, while saying the same exact thing, is a really stupid, retarded way to pretend to not be a samefag. Go weebcope in another thread tranny autist.
>>12471361>>12471369>>12471470>gamefagslollmao evenYou can tell these lists don't matter because DOOM isn't listed on a single one of them. Embarrassing opinion, brosef. Do better. Or be less of a weeb, idk.
>>12473824>samefags relentlessly>calls classic games bad>pretends some of the greatest, most influential video games of all time were "Bad">tries to gaslight everyone into thinking the West, which was talented enough to inspire the Japanese whom he dick-suckingly worships, didn't "get gud" at game development until 1999Dude, you're fucking retarded, just admit it and move on.>There's some gems like Doom that are every bit as good as what the Japanese were putting out but id was already slipping in quality with Quake.Ah, yes, "slipping with Quake", that game nobody remembers and ended up killing their studio.....wait a minute.
>>12474672>knocked it out in 4 monthsThat was the typical development length of a video game in the 80's though...8 months was considered a very expensive, in-depth project back then.
>>12471607>Again, western devs could not figure this shit out until they copied Japanese devsYou mean, copying the "japanese devs" that were copying Western/American devs en mass?What the fuck are you on about retard? You're literally trying to argue the opposite of reality, lmao.
>>12474863Atari 2600 games were usually 6-8 month projects, there are interviews with programmers where they mention that as being typical.
>>12474874>6-8I heard 3 to 6. E.T. for instance was made in 6 weeks.
>>12474874>>12474916ET was an extreme rush job. The reason I think it took so long was that programming a 2600 game is a royal PITA and even more so with the primitive dev tools they had back then.
>>12474863Maniac Mansion took an entire year and Ron Gilbert was almost fired by LucasArts for it.
>>12474859I'm pretty sure he's the literal baby who's first console was the N64, thinks Ocarina of Time is unironically the best game ever made and makes endless threads about N64 "gems"
>>12474649an infamous misstep vs every western sidescroller
>>12474945home computer enthusiast with a chip on your shoulder?
>all these long winded replies to me im not gonna readlol cope. Western devs suck compared to golden age Japanese devs. It's just objective fact. Talk about having literally zero taste
>>12475115Compared to the cream of the crop, you have an argument, but even just five minutes of looking at the libraries of 80s and 90s consoles will quickly reveal a ton of Japanese games which are inferior to some of their Western contemporaries.
>>12475140watch Famidaily/Chrontendo's videos to see how much barely playable trash was on the Famicom that Americans never saw. want some Exciting Baseball or Super Monkey Daibouken?
>>12470575The game's bullshit and hard as balls, but it and the sequel are great. Unironically git gud
How has this OBVIOUS bait thread become one of the most active threads on the board?
The Japanese games we got here were their A-list efforts, we didn't get shovelware titles and in a lot of cases the US version was also improved over the original--bug fixes, more content, better play balance, etc.
>>12475108>>12475115Called it.
>>12475156>watch Famidaily/Chrontendo's videos to see >my opinions are objectively correct, watch these YouTube videos as proofThis has to be parody
>>12475168the wording of the post is rage baity but there's a core truth, there was a noticeable discrepancy between japanese and westernern efforts in one of the primary game genres.
>>12475205go ahead and play Super Monkey Daibouken, anon. enjoy.
>>12475205Even mentioning a streamer on /vr/ should be an instant 3 day ban.That cancer should have never been allowed here, ever.
>>12475214What a surreal thing to say. I can tell for myself at a glance the game isn't something I'm even interested in booting up. I sure don't need to have someone on YouTube tell me what he thinks of it.
I wonder if somewhere in Japan, there are self proclaimed hardcore gamers who claim that western devs were so much better because all they got to see release on Famicom were Battletoads and ports of Wizardry and Ultima and they compare that to the plethora of kuso they got.Well, probably not, I mean, that'd be pretty dumb right?
>>12475169you remember that Yamauchi wanted the N64 to be hard to develop for because he hated the flood of shovelware so much
>>12475474the problem with your comparison is that rare is an outlier, the japanese arcade companies + nintendo were substantial enough for that to be a major component of the industry.
>>12474768Game's not that long, only six levels. Poor use of space?
>>12475626ROM size doesn't really have that much to do with the amount of levels in a game, more like how much detail you can have per level. It would have probably been the graphics that used most of the space up especially sprite frames and whatnot. For one thing the sprite data also could not be compressed like with background tiles because it has to be streamed into the graphics RAM in real time.
>>12470575Your thread is shit and I hope you kill yourself.
>>12475115>it's just objective factSad cope. You already got BTFO above>>12471273>>12471260
>>12475207The only core truth is that westerners didn't come back to the console market en mass until the 6th generation. The collapse of the console market in 1983 made all the western devs focus exclusively on PC games, which is where a lot of small independent development projects were booming. The Last Ninja 2 sold more copies than Legend of Zelda 2.
>>12475807nothing you said counters my post.
>>12471029Play Turrican 2 I beg of you
>>12470762Super Mario Bros. just popularized what Pac-Land did first. Hell, Pac-Land did some things that Mario wouldn't try until the sequels like 3 and World.
>>12476025it's really not that good tbqh
>>12470575Correct
>>12480537Nah
>>12470575This is one of the best run 'n guns on the SNES. You're just terrible at it. Also, westerners invented first person shooters.
>>12471706Battletoads is an anomaly. It has no right to be as good as it is for being a western-developed NES game.
>>12476025I used to love that game, but the last time I played it I didn't enjoy it.
>>12481057A confused retarded weeb, what a shock
>>12475807Last Ninja 2 is a crap game, though. I'm ITT defending western devs but that's really not a good one no matter how many copies it managed to sell to choice-starved gamers.
>>12481057just from a technical POV the fact that they managed to stream tiles into the CHR RAM in real time during gameplay was amazing, god knows how they pulled that off
>>12470593>"if it's a Japanese game it's very likely it will be good"Meanwhile pic related exists. TG16 had a lot of really bad shit that they didnt have the sense to void localizing. JJ and jeff scored a 1 out of 10, and even its flagship action game "keith courage in alpha zone" played like an Amiga eurojank action game. Very slow and imprecise. Somehow the "japanese magic" was missing from all their games. Luckily most of the japanese shit was not localized to famicom, but we still got games like milons secret caslte, clash at demonhead, and the loathsome 8eyes. Genesis had Altered beast, and the less said about that games infamously terrible gameplay the better.
>>12481401Altered Beast was pretty much just a graphical showcase. I don't think any console game looked as good when it released on Mega Drive
