>>12535002
>homebrew hacks
Who the fuck cares? Make an actual indie game

>>12535002
pier solar sucked

>>12535002
>wm

lmao didn't they implode over the shit Fonzie pulled? I'll take the kaizo mario hacks, thanks

>>12535665
Yeah, it was a hilarious ride too.
>make a full-scale homebrew game for the Genesis
>everyone dick-rides it for being a full-scale homebrew despite being a shitty game full of the devs sucking their own dicks and friends dicks
>now everyone thinks they are pro Genesis devs
>some scamming faggot recruits them to make super old-school beat-em-up with super-duper enhancement chip he's making just for this one game
>takes pre-orders despite having no finished product yet
>he scams like a motherfucker then runs
>WM ends up going under to finish what was started and ship a product

>>12535002
Fonzie is a dumbfuck.

I don't play many homebrews but I played Mega Man Episode Red. I thought it was really well done and much better than what Capcom originally put out.

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>>12535002
Word.
I laughed my ass off, when that french RPG dev ejected a week after the trailer because his PC blew up or something
https://forums.atariage.com/topic/385614-eternal-hunters-the-branford-legacy-for-the-snes/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWJ7HwHLMRo
Yeah, bruh, you would have to be tarded to actually dev for SNES. It just doesn't makes sense.
Though I think there's enough Nintendo simps for 1 or 2 crowdfunding scams to go through.

>>12535687
Bruh, the funniest thing would be if Fonzie would pull off this scam.
For the old times sake.
Like he picked the pockets of Sega-tards - he would now show up and proclaim he needs to crowdfund SNES ports of PierSolar or Paprium and off he goes with the bags full of money.

>>12535010
that is an actual you game you retard

I'm shocked you were able to do the IQ test captcha

>releasing new games on retro consoles
pretentious hipster bullshit

>>12535793
It makes perfect sense if the system is comfortable to develop for, like Genesis, PSX, N64 or Dreamcast because the chances are you, as an indie-dev, would be making a retro-looking game anyways and the market for modern systems is oversaturated with something like 50-100 games coming out every day.
Instead of instant obscurity you get free recognition boost from all the retro-gaming channels
If your game does fine, you can then release a version for modern systems, riding on already gained popularity.
SNES is a dogshit console though, quite impossible to port to or from within a reasonable time frame.

File: Something_new_something_old.jpg (2.03 MB, 1948x1502)

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>>12535002
Give Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes a try. It plays as good as as Pier Solar.

>>12535810
>if the system is comfortable to develop for, like N64

Lmao no

>>12536059
It's easy peasy japanesey.
Originally most of the N64 games were developed on SGI - that's obviously retarded.
With the later Windows SDK however not much difference from PSX PSYQ. And I think SN Systems also did made PSYQ for N64, I haven't seen it though.

>>12536072
Yeah no https://www.ign.com/articles/1997/04/15/treasure-talks-yuke-yuke

>N64.com: Is the N64 an easy platform to develop on?

>Maegawa: It is pretty difficult. Compared to the Saturn I think it's more difficult

>>12536075
>Treasure started work on Yuke-Yuke almost two years ago. At the time the N64's chipset wasn't even finished and a lot of guesswork was needed to form the early design concepts. Little was known about the machine's polygon handling, other than the fact that pixel quality would be higher than that of Saturn and PlayStation. And development tools either weren't ready or were undergoing constant revisions.
>When we started, the environment was not ready, so it was very difficult for us. Cartridge- and CD-ROM-based machines cannot be programmed in the same way. Cartridges have their advantages and disadvantages. It has the benefit of being able to load data instantly but obviously it would be better to have cartridges at the same price as CDs. Of course, for action or fighting games, cartridges are much more convenient, but it's only a question of getting used to develop on N64.

He complains about the early days, when you had to buy a bunch of SGIs for 50k or so each. And the dev-kit wasn't even finalized yet.
That's obviously a stress for a company.
He also regrets not having CD-ROM - they were probably struggling with lack of space for textures and compression and level streaming and things like that.
Possibly debugging was fucked.
During its lifetime N64 SDK had several major updates and improved a lot and they released Windows version.
Today you would do most of your development for a Win version of the game and then port it to N64/PSX/DC/Gen when you got all the mechanics down and debugged all the memory leaks, so it's just a C compiler and asset converters +emulator. And you don't have to order 100k rather expensive cartridges from Nintendo months in advance jeopardising millions of dollars - his complaint is about how things were.
Saturn would have been fine too but it gets fucked with the double CPUs and quads instead of polys which requires special handling. Not very intensive 2D game on Saturn - probably fine, like those low-effort Jaguar ports.

>>12535748
>>12535002
Yeah if you're a gay faggot

>>12535793
Why? You rather devs interested in retro games and systems just shit out into the modern digital store ecosystem abyss? The only reason we stopped getting these games was the companies manufacturing the components decided to turn off the tap, otherwise there would certainly have been niche companies still churning out new games for decades. If anything its close to unlicensed publishers who just made their own carts and games even back when the systems were current.

>>12535810
I wouldn't count ps1 or anything that requires modification to run new games as an ideal platform to develop for.

>>12535002
It's a shame Genesis doesn't get as many cool hacks though. I'd love to see something like Final Fantasy IV Free Enterprise or Final Fantasy VI T-Edition for Phantasy Star IV.

>>12536445
Sonic games got some good ones, but I haven't seen much else.

>>12536445
The only touch up PSIV needs is maybe some more endgame content (maybe another Bio Plant with an evil Nei 2.0) and there could be one more weapon upgrade for Demi there, some equipment for Gryz. Gryz needs buffs all around. That's all I can think of, Phantasy Star IV is otherwise perfect.

the SNES has the biggest library of any cartridge based console, clearly it can't have been that bad to develop for

>>12536297
Yeah, I wouldn't call it ideal either - that's the drawback of it but then again, there are drawbacks for all of them:
- Genesis is 16 bit and still needs quite a bit of assembly coding
- N64 is kinda for babies - like with Mac users - I usually tend to not like the people who like it, plus blurry vaseline smeared textures
- Dreamcast sold just about 10 million units, which is about 10th of PlayStation sales and it's almost too current - with one feet on a border. PS2 is too current, I think
- DOS32 (and related shit, like PC98, FM-Towns) is the easiest to code for with half a dozen C compilers, Basics, Pascals, etc. but literary nobody on this whole planet cares for this

>>12536456
Oh yeah it's one of my favorite RPGs, so I don't think it needs much. More optional content would be cool, but I'd be more interested in seeing hacks that completely rework the game. Free Enterprise for example gives you an airship at the start and randomizes the game, making Final Fantasy IV open-ended. You basically explore the new randomized game and find your way to the final boss. Something like that for Phantasy Star IV would be neat.

>>12535002
I'll never forget the story about the release party where they had a beta copy of the game to demo and it didn't have enemy ai implemented. Then the game wasn't released for like a couple years lol

>>12535679
didn't they rerelease this with completely redone art and music for Sega CD and PC? They must have really been proud of it to rerelease it again and again.

>>12535810
ill be honest as much as i love the *idea* of new games for old hardware, every time i see a new game being developed for an old console first i just assume its some bland noveltyslop with nothing unique or interesting to offer other than it being "on the dreamcast", basically just easy money from plastic hoarders because nobody else is interested

>>12536547
I mean whats the alternative option? Drop your game into an infinite sea of modern AI shit, or release it on a platform with a small but dedicated fanbase where it may actually get noticed?

>>12535810
SNES programming isn't hard, it's just not as easy or straightforward as Mega Drive programming. Excepting the Saturn, all Sega consoles are simple to program and don't demand much from the programmer.

>less capable
>harder to develop for
>lower resolution, sounds like shit, horrible input lag
Yikes. No wonder nobody is making SNES games. What's the point when the Mega Drive is the same thing but categorically better.

>>12536939
The Genesis has that crummy synthesizer soundchip. Kind of a big flaw in the presentation unless you are in-house Sega developers with wizard composers or doing heavy metal/techno shit for shoot em ups.

>>12536939
the Genesis in general was better at action games and SNES at RPGs and strategy titles but homebrews are almost always the former

>>12536468
When are you going to list the drawbacks?

>>12537057
>the Genesis in general was better at action games

I do not agree

Yeah shmup are better but fighting games ? SNES beat em up? SNES action platformer ? SNES

>>12537085
>fighting games ? SNES
There isn't a single fighter that's better on SNES.
>beat em up? SNES
SNES cannot handle more than 3 enemies at a time.
>action platformer ? SNES
This argument fell flat when Sonic was put against Mario.
>but but but Mario is FUN!!!!!
Sonic is the far more impressive game and it's not even close.
>>12537057
>SNES at RPGs and strategy titles
Phantasy Star IV, Shining Force II, and Lunar: Eternal Blue are at least as good as anything on SNES.
SNES is literally not better at anything. Developers know this, and that is why nobody makes SNES games.

>>12537118
Caveat. It had more WRAM (128k against Mega Drive's 64k) so this was useful for strategy titles. I don't think for example you could have done a port of Civilization on the Mega Drive, not enough RAM there.

>>12537047
>The Genesis has that crummy synthesizer soundchip.
The Mega Drive offers a great number of advantages in sound over the SNES, including more channels, with 10 typically, but as many as up to 28 when using individual operator key-on and frequency controls and software PCM mixing, this is compared to the SNES mere 8 at all times. The Mega Drive has a higher sample rate, with 52 khz frequency, compared to the SNES muffled 32 khz, it had a higher bitrate, with 8-bit uncompressed playback, as opposed to the SNES mere 4-bit lossy compressed audio. There was no audio RAM bottleneck on Mega Drive, with it fully able to stream directly from the cartridge, compared to the miniscule 64 kbs audio RAM bottleneck on the SNES, also, the Mega Drive offers more audio synthesis techniques, with FM, PCM, and PSG available for use, as opposed to the SNES which can only do PCM. SNES audio was severely muffled, dull, lifeless, flat, overly saturated with reverb, and oftentimes suffered from serious tuning issues, none of these issues were apparent on the Mega Drive. Many fans have ported SNES music to the Mega Drive and thoroughly improved it in the process, whereas attempts to do the opposite, porting Mega Drive music to the SNES, always and invariably finds the SNES version lacking by comparison, failing to even match the quality of the Mega Drive original versions. By all objective measures, the SNES audio was actually quite poor, and the Mega Drive had it categorically and thoroughly beaten in that regard.
There are many examples of SNES music being ported to Mega Drive and resulting in better sound quality than the SNES original:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CzkswHHxQI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQkx_8Xw_rY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VopzTQUm79U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T5NQq0Xrq8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSR2Sn2_D48

>>12537128
it was on paper possible to use cartridge RAM to work around that. Some Genesis games had cart RAM for battery saves but they never had it just for expanded workspace.

>>12537118
I'm not sure we're on the same page i'm not talking about graphic but just pure quality

>This argument fell flat when Sonic was put against Mario.

That's not an action platformer...

Action platformer=Castlevania 4,Megaman games...

Oh and Mario World is better than Sonic too

the low color mode on SNES was convenient especially for small 4 megabit games because it saved on space. the Genesis didn't have that, graphics are always 4 bit color and each tile uses 32 bytes.

Well, I'm convinced.
I stopped liking the Super Nintendo.

>>12537158
Larger games occasionally as well, Civilization which I mentioned is 12 megabits and does use 2 bit color depth.

>1,780 SNES games vs 869 Genesis games
Welp.

>>12537157
>Action platformer=Castlevania 4,Megaman games...
Oh OK then games like Bloodlines, Contra Hard Corps, Alien Soldier, Shinobi III, Rocket Knight Adventure easily show that the Mega Drive was the more capable hardware.
>Oh and Mario World is better than Sonic too
If you're a games developer, do you want to make a game for the system that can do an elaborate physics engine and smooth, flowing terrain? Or do you want to be limited to basic blocks and small sprites? There's a correct answer.

>>12537178
>If you're a games developer, do you want to make a game for the system that can do an elaborate physics engine and smooth, flowing terrain? Or do you want to be limited to basic blocks and small sprites?
The American/Euro in you is obvious. Japan wouldn't care about the latter as long as the game was fun to play.

>>12537178
> Contra Hard Corps, Alien Soldier

That's Run&gun games

>>12537194
You forgot to write off the other two examples I gave. Guess you finally came to agree with the logical truth that the Mega Drive hardware is just better, regardless of genre.
>>12537181
>Japan wouldn't care about the latter as long as the game was fun to play.
Hence the slew of Japanese SNES homebrew coders and projects! Oh, hang on...

>>12536287
(You) sound upset, anon. Wanna talk about it?

>>12535021
Not the point.

it's just easier to get a game up and running on Mega Drive, the architecture is less convoluted the CPU is powerful and easy to use and the memory map is totally flat. SNES games have memory segments, usually 32k but sometimes 64k.

>>12535002
all these Mega Drive homebrews tries to use huge-ass ROM sizes no game in the console's commercial lifespan had. i'd like to see them attempt a 4 or 8 megabit game.

>>12537310
Yes because is so shit it barelly count as a game same shit as paprium, if can't be played on gens32 emu or model 2 or 3 megadrive doesn't count as real game simple fact.

>>12537317
>mage game with sa1 or sp7110 chip.
>call it a day because hardware is more advanced with higher clock speed.
No one does that on snes, similar to megadrive.
>have 32x addon for better sound, ppu, cpu.
>not used because "muhh pirates are gonna dump the rom and kega fusion can emulate it without issue"

>>12537754
>model 2 or 3 megadrive doesn't count as real game simple fact
but then you'd have to exclude those early EA carts that don't work on Model 2-3 because they relied on the Model 1 not doing the copyright string check on boot up

>>12535680
Fonzie stole all the money from the PC port of paprium. Then stole more money from the GameGear chibi port.
Took everything and ran, even screwed kickstarter from the funds because he was bypassing how the system worked via emailing payments direct into his bank account.
Former devs who worked with him and defended him have gone radio silent UNLESS you upload a gameplay video of the game being played via Emulation because it got hacked recently - then they go fucking crazy and send you a take down notice.

Great people yeah

>>12537746
It's the audio. Audio programming is under documented in favor of graphics.
Bloating your rom with raw audio just werks, and the only downside are snobs complaining about it on 4chins.

>>12537138
the faults with the SNES sound stems from how it was originally meant to work with the SNES CD add-on. without that you have only half a sound subsystem.

>>12536445
There actually is a hack like that for fantasy star IV.

https://sites.google.com/view/ps4-pd/home

>>12536446
Zombies at my roguelike
phantasy star 4 profound distortion
sonic hellfire saga and megamix
>>12537746
boring. I'd rather see super games.

>>12537775
Can't just use the GEMS driver?

>>12537746
Yes. See how well you handle the limitations developers had to work with back then.

>>12535002
>good
heh

>>12536292
it would be pretty much exclusively the PS1 and maybe PS2 that people would develop for if old systems had more open software. CD-Rs and DVD-Rs are cheap as chips, in contrast to having to print custom carts for something like a Genesis or N64.

>>12539886
Genesis carts are normally just a ROM on a PCB, they're about as cheap to build as possible.

>>12539895
I can get a tenpack of CDRs for $5

>>12535002
>Watermelon
>Good
Pick one, you can't have both.

https://x.com/i/status/2049557714280288568
>codes the same pi algorithm on Mega Drive and SNES
>Mega Drive version runs 9 times faster
lmao. I wouldn't want to make SNES games either. What a turd.

>>12539886
You are right, but no one would buy them unless they are on pressed discs atleast. The times companies have tried to do CDR for homebrew, they got bitch slapped. Dreamcast really is more or less the best system to make homebrew on if you want less limitations to work on, unless you are designing something to run on older operating systems/computers. It would be interesting to see more titles for weirder platforms that never got to see what they could do. Supposedly the HyperScan could have done a decent job as a 32bit system for 2D games.

the SNES owned the Japanese market but Nintendo's name was golden then and in general it was more suited to the slower paced games Japanese gamers preferred

>>12540081
we're talking about a hypothetical world where game consoles were open for homebrew development. the PS1/2 would be meccas for stuff like RPGmaker titles.

how bad is SNES programming though? not familiar with it.

>>12535002
>Auster gets diabetes and has to have a foot amputated
>

>>12536075
>modern tools have made n64 realtively easy to dev for
>BUT BUT BUT WHAT ABOUT THE 90s
this is some double digit IQ shit

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>>12541514
It's 6502 with some shit nailed and duct-taped to it. So on CPU side you have this slow, archaic thing with 1 general register and on video side those specific modes.
It's like nothing else, so, to make something out of it, you really have to invest all your eggs into this one basket. It just doesn't make sense today - you'll run out of time and money.

>>12537158
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from storing tiles as 2 bit color in rom. Genesis games used tile compression already, so the performance cost of unpacking tiles was accepted.

I would think the real reason that 2 bit tiles may not have been as useful for the genesis is that the genesis has far fewer palette lines than the SNES. 2 bit tiles are not so limiting when 4 times as many palettes to work with.

>>12541514
The CPU has 16-bit registers while the Mega Drive has a 68k with 32-bit registers (although 32-bit ops are slow due to the bottleneck of the 16-bit CPU data bus). It also has memory segments not flat memory and the PPU is quite a bit more complicated and has a lot more modes and features than the VDP. Four possible background layers, there's also two different color depths, a much larger palette, and Mode 7 effects. While you can do a lot of cool visual effects and for sure the Mega Drive couldn't have done justice to FF6, it's much more complicated to work with.

>>12541957
>Genesis games used tile compression already, so the performance cost of unpacking tiles was accepted
the average ratio was about 70% compression so if you had an 8 megabit game with 400k of graphics data you could achieve 280k once packed.

>>12541957
as he said, background tiles are a fixed 32 bytes each while SNES tiles, if low color mode is used, are 16 bytes each. that's regardless of how many palettes you use.

While the SNES might be better at RPGs, there is almost no case where it beats the Mega Drive at action games.

>>12542838
SNES has better fighting games,beat em up and action platformer...

>>12542843
The SNES doesn't even have a single worthwhile fighting game, beat em up, or action platformer.

>>12542868
You know absurd and blatant lies like that just make you look like a butthurt Sega fanboy

>>12542838
it seems apparent that they meant the hardware to be more suited for the slower paced games that had come to dominate the Japanese market by the late 80s

>>12542879
>absurd and blatant lies
LOL what do you want to bet he's going to say Run Saber?

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>>12537138
I've always been fond of Gecko's arrangement of Super Metroid. Honestly love them far more than the originals. Same with Mega Man X.
https://youtu.be/YMhJgRFpI5A?si=vmHdclheZa6Cc_lB

>>12535002

>Pack of nostalgia plagued devs set out to finally make a good rpg for Genesis
>All the in-depth reviews I see say it's mid tier at best

Par for the course.

>>12543030
They're not Japanese so they'll never really "get" RPGs.

>>12543073
Neither do japs, considering they had to bastardize the genre to match their tastes.

Back in the day Western devs always liked the Mega Drive more anyway, some of it was Sega's Western divisions being friendly and encouraging to them while Nintendo treated them like the proverbial red headed stepchild they didn't like or care about.

>>12536468
>Genesis is 16 bit and still needs quite a bit of assembly coding
Figures a zoomer would be filtered by that.

>>12536297
at this point anyone willing to even use a real ps1 should be ok with modding it. maybe 20 years ago you might have wanted to stick to systems you could make just werks media for but at this point even still owning a psx is exceptional. modding them is easy and cheap today and in a pinch there is a swaptrick in case someone just wants to try things without committing to opening their console

>>12536514
It was re-released on every platform under the sun 10 years ago. It's still purchasable on Xbox 1/Series and PS4/5.

>>12535002
>Genesis gets all the good modern games
Picture unrelated because anyone who played PS knows it fucking sucks, holy fuck it's so TEDIOUS, going anywhere, fighting with that retarded charge storing garbage mechanic being a central element WHAT WERE THEY THINKIIING

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Mega Drive carts are super cheap and simple to build since most of them just look like this.

>>12546476
no security ship?

>>12546561
The security is entirely software, it's just a Sega copyright string in the ROM the console checks on boot up.

>>12546476
that's not to say SNES carts are usually complicated or anything (unless they have helper chips) but even the simplest ones need a CIC chip which is an additional part

>>12546564
The problem is SNES can't do shit without a helper chip. If you need a raspberry pi in the cartridge anyway, what's the point of making a SNES game and not just releasing for PC? It's pretty telling that the SNES port of Xeno Crisis needed to run the game entirely on a helper chip, when Mega Drive could just run the game on it's base hardware.

>>12545258
Im fine with modding, but if you are releasing a new fully packaged product, it kinda kills my interest in it if it won't just run on stock hardware.

>>12536514
There was a Dreamcast version but not sure if it had differences besides music. There was an interesting companion disc for the Sega CD that came with the OST that added cd music to the genesis cart version which is honestly really cool and i wish more homebrews for the system made similar discs to go with them.

>>12546641
the thing had over 1,700 games and only about 70 of them had helper chips

>>12546476
NES carts have at minimum two ROMs, optionally SRAMs, a CIC, and a banking circuit of some kind either an ASIC mapper or a TTL. The Chinese have MMC1 and MMC3 clone chips you can use but it's a lot of parts and pretty complicated/expensive.

>>12535002
Easier to make games for
SNES is only for people that know what they're doing

>>12537138
If you want to really advocate for the genesis, maybe you should avoid posting YouTube videos. Low quality, lossy audio has done terrible things to the reputation of the genesis. FM synth really does not work well with lossy audio compression. Maybe see if you can find some place that has flac/wav.

>>12537802
anonymous delivers

>>12546641
>It's pretty telling that the SNES port of Xeno Crisis needed to run the game entirely on a helper chip, when Mega Drive could just run the game on it's base hardware

I think the guys doing that did the SNES's Xeno conversion simply didn't want to meddle in assembly.
Base snes could easy run Xenocrisis.

>Because the game and its soundtrack were natively conceived for the Genesis, the SNES port utilizes direct recordings of the synthesized Genesis audio rather than native SNES SPC700 chip synth arrangements.

This shows they were lazy/unable and decided to throw hardware at the problem.

>>12546641
And I'm glad it did have them
https://github.com/astrobleem/SNES-SuperDragonsLairArcade

>>12536072
I remember watching that Portal 64 guy on YouTube, and eventually he received a C&D from Valve, not because they didn't want him to make a Portal fan game (Valve is always fine with this) but because the only way to make homebrew N64 games is by using stolen Nintendo compilers and Valve didn't want to be a part of that.

>>12547208
Exactly. They were lazy low talent idiots who never would have made it back in the day (well ok maybe Radical Entertainment would have hired them)

>>12546649
i agree it doesn't make things easy, but keep in mind also even if you're selling to average people, said average people will probably just be actually playing the emulated release like on steam, with a physical release more for collectors

>>12546701
a mapper is optional, but without one you're limited to 8k+32k so only the earliest games don't use one

>>12546701
>and MMC3 clone chips you can use
I wonder how accurate they even are? The IRQ counter wasn't well documented until fairly recently and there's a couple different MMC3 variants.

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>>12547465
>>12546701
well unless you see it as a challenge, pic related was made within the 40k limit

>>12547471
I'm excited to get triple jump, bought a multi-tap just for it and am gonna get a bunch of friends who played ufo50 to join me. NES design is really in fashion right now and I'm all for it.

>>12547471
>Euroslop

>>12547471
My favorite part of this one was when the devs admitted they purposely used 8x8 sprites because they couldn't deal with the scanline limit.

>>12547470
There were two different MMC3s, a Sharp and an NEC one, and the former gives you a scanline IRQ every eight rows of screen like MMC5 but the latter has just one.

>>12547850
intwesting

>>12542843
In what bizzaro world shit is this true?
Lol jesus christ

>>12548615
Beatemup is contestable but the others are true 100%

>>12547471
>>12547804
At least it wasn't NESMaker single screen slop.

>>12535002
This is gonna start happening with PS1 too. They just released a tool for making PS1 ports I do think we're gonna see an explosion in PS1 homebrew soon

>>12547804
>>12547208
So they're basically Micronics-tier.

>whoops, assembly is too hard we'll just use a shitty C compiler instead so the game runs at 12 fps

>>12549472
that's a bit accurate

the Mega Drive lets you use as much video RAM as you want for sprite data while the SNES has a fixed limit of 16k

>>12542978
that sounds like he stuck with GEMS.

>>12549297
You we wont you fucking liar.

>>12550634
>You we won't
Ahmed....

>>12536468
DOS stuff can potentially be really cool, you have stuff like the Quake 2 port but assembly hacking sounds really hard but many old games could use hack or even porting PC98 games to dos. And then no one cares if your game scroll smooth on a 386 because they play it in dosbox anyway.
NES can be really annoying with its mappers and scrolling, you would think it was take an hour to get it sorted but I've been spending all week trying to make 360 scrolling work without glitching because of not only the 4 page boundry set up but having to skip attribute table data. In that way I can see 16 bit being way easier but I don't want to spend 6 months to a year learning a new console at the moment.

>>12536595
It was super popular for demos in 2004.

>>12537317
To learn I think its much better to start with 8 bit. I tried Genesis years ago and gave up but when I started years later with 8 bit I was able to pick it up much faster.

>>12547850
You can do pretty good stuff with standard chips, I don't think MMC3 improves the nes that much, it was mainly about the extra memory and the fixed score bar. A lot of Mario 3 levels only scroll vertically 2 screens, that can be done on the most basic mapper.

>>12551060
>NES can be really annoying with its mappers and scrolling, you would think it was take an hour to get it sorted but I've been spending all week trying to make 360 scrolling work
Only four mapper setups, CNROM, UNROM, MMC1 and MMC3, account for the vast majority of games and one needn't trouble themselves with obscure stuff that two total Famicom games used.

>>12551060
>I don't think MMC3 improves the nes that much, it was mainly about the extra memory and the fixed score bar.
You forget battery save games don't require you to hold down Reset when powering off and there's finer granularity banking. This is important because a lot of MMC3 games have switchable power-ups like in SMB3 and it uses the 8k PRG banking to switch in the object code for that power up. So these games couldn't be done with lesser mappers. One downside was that it doesn't have MMC1's single screen mirroring mode.

also faster banking. MMC1 is slow.

>>12551060
>I tried Genesis years ago and gave up but when I started years later with 8 bit I was able to pick it up much faster.

everyone who commercially programmed Genesis games back in the day would have had prior experience with 8-bit machines

>>12551060
start small. just do a primitive NROM game with no scrolling like it's 1984 before tackling full-out games with large ROMs and scrolling.

>>12535002
>Genesis gets all the good modern games
You mean all the overhyped games with stupid DRM, and not sovlfvl ROMhacks?

>>12547471
This game isn't bad. Wish it was more forgiving though.

>>12542596
I'd like to see someone recreate Red Zone on the SNES. I bet it'd be hard to do without any expansion chips.

>>12551863
Why would you want to see a raped version of Red Zone? SNES could do it if the whole game ran on a raspberry pi in the cartridge, but otherwise it wouldn't ever work.

>>12551852
did i mention the need to advertise "64 megabits biggest Genesis game evah!" when i'd like to see them do a 4 megabit game and work within the tight limitations of that

>>12551852
i could think of some existing games that could also use a MD port

the SNES does have the 2-bit color mode and MD doesn't but i also think MD games don't need it as badly since their graphics tend to take less space anyway

>>12551959
I should add that the Mega Drive library has a lot more 4 and 8 megabit games while the SNES has more 16 and 32 megabit games.

>>12549472
That's basically the whole reason why Sega dominates in 16-bit homebrew. SNES has more esoteric, specialized hardware that programmers need to wrap their heads around, while Mega Drive just lets you throw shit at the wall and it will probably stick because of sheer muscle of the processor, relative simplicity of VDP and mature toolsets.

>>12552094
some of that was the Mega Drive coming out earlier, but also yes in general its graphics didn't use as much space because it only has 2.5 background layers and no Mode 7 (Mode 7 objects are 64 bytes each).

the one PITA about MD programming is the sound chip. that shit is unnecessarily complicated.

>>12552094
there are 1 and 2 megabit Mega Drive games mostly from the early days while the smallest SNES games are 2 megabits and there's only a couple of those

>>12552109
of course you don't have to use all that stuff and small ROM games often didn't anyway

Compressing graphics is also a PITA.

>>12552096
the 65816 lacked the massive body of coding experience the 68k had back in the day

>>12550862
NES has either CHR RAM or ROM. If the former, you have one PRG containing all game data, the latter the PRG and CHR data are in separate ROMs (also the CHR ROM often contains level data to free up PRG space). Therefore 256k PRG+CHR RAM is equivalent to 128k PRG+128k CHR ROM in terms of how much content fits in it, you're just setting things up a little differently.

>>12553170
it seems to me that RPGs tended to use CHR RAM more often but idk why

>>12553179
nah it's about even. as with most such games CHR RAM was used when they wanted to do animated tiles or sprite transformations.

Stay the fuck away from cringey kaizo shit op. The community is toxic af anyway. You can't even mention dode in panga's chat without getting banned.

>>12553170
per the other thread. the smallest Gameboy games were 32k. this had no exact NES equivalent as the nearest one was NROM-256 which had CHR ROM and gave you 40k total space. the next smallest ROM size was 64k and had no exact NES equivalent either since the smallest NES carts with CHR RAM were UNROM-128. the larger Gameboy ROM sizes are 1v1 equivalent to NES w/ CHR RAM and some late NES games are copypaste Gameboy ports on UNROM carts.

>>12553194
>and had no exact NES equivalent either since the smallest NES carts with CHR RAM were UNROM-128
I think some unlicensed games did though; Camerica had at least one game (Bee-52) that was 64k CHR RAM but it was never used in licensed carts.

>>12553194
Gameboy games also have smaller code portions since the Z80-derivative CPU takes fewer instructions to accomplish something than the 6502. I'd estimate about 15% less code.

>>12553194
it was rare to see a NES game with 64k PRG, incidentally. NES Cartridge Database lists only 62 such games.

>>12553212
>it was rare to see a NES game with 64k PRG, incidentally. NES Cartridge Database lists only 62 such games.

there wasn't much point to it, you could just use UNROM instead

I think all the Color Dreams games were 64k PRG+64k CHR but yeah you didn't really see that in licensed games

>>12553170
Mega Man 4-6 did that.

>4 and 6 used 512k CHR RAM but 5 was 256+256 instead
>no idea why Capcom chose to do that but they did

>>12553241
maybe they couldn't get 4 megabit ROMs or not at an acceptable price? i suspect it was a parts supply issue because it seems odd to just switch the game like that and then switch it back again.

i think there were only 20 or Mega Drive games with a 32 megabit ROM

>>12553353
yes

>no one replied to marble fag
proud of you /vr/

>>12553353
19 by my count including the 40-meg Super Street Fighter II.
Are you including Sonic 3 & Knuckles? It's only 30-megs as there are 4 megabits of redundant memory shared between S3 and S&K.

>>12553353
SOJ had a limit of 24 megabits for cost reasons; if a publisher wanted a larger ROM they had to pay for it themselves. All the 32 megabit games were Western exclusives not released in Japan.

>>12554318
the Mega Drive was completely dead in Japan by the time they had 32 megabit ROMs anyway

>>12553353
Didn't need it so much because of the graphics not generally needing as much space.

SNES programming too hard.

>>12553170
Sort of, except PRG RAM games can have tile compression to reduce some space. I would think if you disassembled the ROM for most of those games and used CHR Edit you wouldn't find readable data like you would for a CHR ROM game. Thus if you have 256k PRG ROM and 128k of tile data, you can pack it down to about 90k and free up space for other stuff.

Generally if the CHR data would be at least half the total ROM space, compression should be used. If you were using UNROM-128 and had 64k of CHR data, it should be compressed while if the CHR data would be smaller then you could get away with not doing it. On the 16-bit consoles tile compression is near-universal because of the far larger amount of tile data--a single SNES tile set is 32k in size while a NES tile set is only 4k.

>>12555749
>A drawback of using CHR ROM is that the split between PRG ROM and CHR ROM fragments your data, but it can be worked around. If your PRG ROM is slightly bigger than a power of two, but you have a bit of spare CHR ROM left, you can stash the data in CHR ROM and read it out through PPUADDR/PPUDATA.

can any coding experts translate?

>>12555754
it's about storing data in the CHR ROM.

>If your PRG ROM is slightly bigger than a power of two
i actually don't understand what this means because a ROM is a power of two and can't be "slightly bigger than" a power of two. the tl;dr is that it's not unusual to put game data in unused parts of the CHR ROM and read it during blank, this is especially common in CNROM games. there are also games like Roger Clemens MVP Baseball that have a larger CHR ROM than the PRG because the level data is all moved to the latter to free up additional PRG space.

>>12555764
that's true, Roger Clemens is 1 megabit PRG 2 megabit CHR. for the Gameboy port they compromised by using a 2 megabit ROM

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>>12555749
If you are using CHR RAM though you can have fewer tiles because CHR ROM has a lot of redundancy, each tile set has to include copies of stuff like score counters and whatnot so you waste a lot of space. in TMNT for instance each CHR set has to include the graphics for the status bar. if it was CHR RAM you only need one set of status bar graphics.

>>12553179
>it seems to me that RPGs tended to use CHR RAM more often but idk why
It's mostly to do with making it easier to render large amounts of text. Not all NES RPGs use CHR RAM but it's relatively common to use there for that reason.

>>12555774
you sure that doesn't just switch tile sets in mid-screen? it's not at all uncommon to do that.

>>12555774
obviously if CHR ROM was used then no PRG space has to be used for graphics data and it can all be used for other stuff. TMNT seems like it pretty well uses all available PRG and CHR space and quite famously, Contra USA lost some stuff like the between-level maps because it was reduced to UNROM so there wasn't the space for the maps.

>>12555818
wasn't that because they couldn't use VRC2 outside Japan?

>>12555824
It was common claimed NOA didn't allow third party carts and mappers but a few of them were in fact produced and Konami did make their own PCBs. I think the reason they didn't use VRC2 was because they just didn't have enough available, they probably only had enough for their Famicom carts. You recall even with Top Gun that Konami bought the carts from Nintendo likely because the demand for the game was too great for their own relatively modest manufacturing capacity.

>>12555834
Top Gun is UNROM in both the US and Japan, but the latter has music while the former doesn't.

>>12555842
US version came out first, they probably had no time to put the music in so it was added for the Famicom release a few months later.

>>12555847
also US Top Gun has 24k of unused ROM space while Japanese Top Gun has 16k unused. i would say however that it's typical of most NES releases where the original version was the less developed one since it had to be rushed out the door. it does seem odd that the Japanese one didn't use a VRC mapper though.

>>12555851
>does seem odd that the Japanese one didn't use a VRC mapper though
as he said, they did a huge run of this game and Konami didn't have the production capacity to do it themselves so they bought the carts from Nintendo.

>>12555851
Castlevania is also UNROM but the game is actually only about 64k, half the ROM is empty.

>>12555856
that's because it was originally an FDS game. there are occasional UNROM games that leave a large part of the ROM empty, one example was Castelian. the Gameboy version used a 32k ROM but the NES uses a half-empty UNROM cart, although in that case they had to have CHR RAM to do the rotating tower effect.

>>12555818
Yes, Contra had to be shoehorned into there and they still had to cut the level maps for lack of space.

>>12535810
>SNES is a dogshit console though, quite impossible to port to or from within a reasonable time frame.
didn't developers used to finish games in a few months?

>>12556468
In the 90s developers already experienced with 6502 chip moved to SNES and company would have 2 or 3 of them. In the 80s they would all work on separate projects in parallel but for 16bit system they could join on a single project. And they would grow with the system, working on more complex games each time. And you could have junior dev who would learn from the experienced ones. And publisher would bankroll the development.
This doesn't happen today. SNES already ran through it's life cycle so expectations are sky high - people want Secret of Mana, Super Metroid and Mario Kart. 8-bit games are made in editors - programmers don't learn system programming. If somebody does program in assembler, there for sure isn't 2nd and 3rd programmer who does the same. And you get your money from kickstarter and it runs out in 6 months.

>>12556536
thank you for the reply, ChatGPT

Micro Mages bugs me because it's NROM but the graphics resemble late NES games from like 92 rather than what an actual 1985 NROM game looked like (they did not use black outlines on sprites back then).

>>12555851
Top Gun was probably meant as a US release first and Japanese one second.,

>>12556468
Nah.

>>12556554
but it's so easy. you just have to enter "why do homebrew games suck?" and get an entire paragraph of an answer.

>>12555774
this one would have sure benefited from MMC3. the constant status bar break-up is annoying.

>>12556639
more bugged by their admission that they didn't use 16x16 sprites because the scanline limit was too hard for them

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The background graphics look alright but those sprites are a train wreck.

>>12557517
They didn’t “admit” to anything, anyone with half a brain cell could figure out why they used small sprites, especially since it has 4-player coop. They were just explaining their thought process for the retards who wouldn’t be able to figure that out on their own.

>>12557532
this was written in a custom scripting engine. i was prepared to forgive that because it wasn't unheard of back in the day--both versions of Maniac Mansion did that, but those sprites...yeah.

>>12557546
All the Koei games did so they could easily port them to different platforms.

>>12557532
what about the sprites?

>>12557567
No game back in the day would have used those skinny one pixel limbs because they would be almost illegible on the average 80s consumer TV. As he said, the backgrounds look good enough but they needed to study sprites in NES games better to get the "look" down properly.

>>12557532
this is what always faintly annoys about a lot of homebrews. they never escape that taint of being completely self-indulgent and designed only for the creators and their smug hipster friends.

>>12535868
I would, 'cept idk where to get the leak : (

>>12557517
i would have assumed it was because;
- they have extremely limited character rom space so smaller actors means more animations instead
- it's a four-player game so smaller actors means more space for them
- it's a modern game so people are going to be playing it on larger and clearer displays, where small actors will still look clear enough

>>12557735
i don't know what they said about the sprite limit, but it's a vertical scroller, the opportunities to even have a ton of sprites on a single horizontal line is pretty low, as things are spread out vertically.
and does it even matter? it's not something that ever came to mind when i i played it

>>12557745
i don't remember that

>>12557601
was that the part where the character in WR has a hipster beard?

>>12557706
Nevermind. Golly, I didn't expect it to be so easy to find since I haven't had to bother looking for a rom in nearly three decades.

>>12557768
i don't know if that's a beard or his mouth

one other thing. the Mega Drive VDP and video RAM can be written to at any time. during active render it will be at a reduced bitrate, but you can still do it. not the case with the SNES, you can't touch any video stuff outside blank.

>>12556554
I'll take it as a compliment on my English.
I don't quite understand what's your angle. All I said is just common sense. They chose that shit CPU for SNES to ease transition from NES and other 8bit systems. Today it's meaningless - there is no transition. Standing on its own it's just shitty console.
Here somebody is hyping up recent NES homebrews:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-eMIFIbr5Y
It's all shovelware dogshit except the last game, which raised $200k on kickstarter and just ran out of funds.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/something-nerdy/former-dawn/posts/4650696
The programmer is working on PC version in parallel, but it's different and lagging behind NES. So his whole development cycle is fucked. He should have been testing game mechanics on PC and bringing it over to console. But because of time constrain he's doing NES as primary version. You would have same problems with SNES but not with Genesis.

>>12558004
>Estique
>Rugrats Video Land
>FamiDash
>Data Man
>Shovelware

Are you trying to piss people off?

>>12558012
That's exactly right
It's all terrible GameMaker tier bargain bin dogshit.
Former Dawn - one good game in that whole video

>>12558004
>It's all shovelware dogshit except
three quarters of its commercially released library was shovelware dog poop too

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way too many of these games go for that dum indie pixel art aesthetic that no commercially released NES game ever used. one reason as anon said was that the graphics would look like total shit on a TV of that time. they tended to use large blocks with contrasting colors to make everything as legible as possible.

>>12558460
He's right. You think everything was Castlevania III or Mega Man 2? Come on.

I'd like to see them try a real early-style NROM game with black backgrounds like it's 1984.

>>12558012
>Are you trying to piss people off?
maybe

modern indie devs suck and whoever thought otherwise?

>>12551872
>Why would you want to see a raped version of Red Zone?
Because I want to see if it's possible, duh.
>SNES could do it if the whole game ran on a raspberry pi in the cartridge, but otherwise it wouldn't ever work.
A Raspberry Pi far exceeds the capabilities of the Genesis. I think the SA-1 could handle it.
>>12551881
Never mind a 4 megabit cart, I'd like to see them try to squeeze something into a 1 or 2 megabit cart. A small number of games used those.
>>12551950
Which titles were you thinking?

>>12556639
I think it's impressive that they managed to fit late-style graphics into a 40k cart, myself.

>>12559292
>Never mind a 4 megabit cart, I'd like to see them try to squeeze something into a 1 or 2 megabit cart. A small number of games used those.
generally early games from 88-90

>>12559321
there's only 256 bg tiles with NROM so it's not exactly time consuming to come up with that

>>12535810
The thing it isn't just pushing a pretentious shit that is mediocre at best.
>make megadrive game : it uses an fpga so it isn't really a mega drive game since the emulator is a custom shit made for that game only.
>make beat em up for mega drive : worse gameplay then streets of rage.
Thing is about doing something that push the limits of hardware, sadly tools are mediocre at best because "muuhh C laguange sdk" instead of using better shit, sadly they won't because assembly which is longer coding, more optimized, better end product but longer coding = more work so most piss themselves with that.
Can they do a tengai makyou, or rendering ranger 2 game i bet they can't, can they do a vectorman 2 or phantasy star IV game i bet they can't.

>>12559726
using C on pre-PS1 consoles is a mistake

>>12559731
>using C on pre-PS1 consoles is a mistake
68ks are proper CPUs and have first rate compilers. The MD cpu is overkill for 2D games so the small overhead from slightly sub-optimal C will never make your game slow down. Bad program structure will do that and if you're writing bad code, you'll write bad code in ASM too.
Indie MD games have an SDK problem, not a C problem. They aren't writing proper low level code in any language, they are using a generic unoptimised engine that bloats everything they are doing and because they didn't write it they can't tell which function translates to 5 ASM instructions and which is 500, so they wind up using the 500 one in a loop and slowing everything to a crawl.

>>12535002
KYS faggot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKrJuSLCb3U

>>12559997
watch what happens when you play a NES Micronics game written in a shitty C compiler and the very long pauses when switching screens. C doesn't work exactly well with a 6502 to begin with but the code was also obviously very inefficient.

most of these guys are at the level of the average Euro home computer game developer in 1990, which is to say bad

>>12559997
And you think sdk in C isn't an issue? As said oroblem is that they don't use assembly for it even if they have the original sdk archived ready to download just requiring virual machines at most to develop games as in the past, think is assembly needs more work which will get a faster running game more optimized with the issue that makes all developers shit themselves "more work" because as someone said "is not the same making 10kb of code for assembly or kirikiri script in one hour to make 1 hour of coding in C because aren't the same" which is a good point because being able to code 10 kb of assembly in one hour was a strong point back then, but in C saying that would be pointless since hello world in C is 10 kb.

>>12555749
Graphics data in games isn't necessarily always compressed. If it is there will be a second or two of blank screen when switching screens. Mega Man 1 seems to have no compression because when you start a level it's pretty much click, boom, done.

>>12561040
^This.

>>12560328
MMX soundtrack on Genesis hardware mogs the shit out of the wimpy ass SNES version.
https://youtu.be/9CzkswHHxQI?si=LN5wkdL0ER5omvI8

>>12535868
Go complain about being poor somewhere else whilst showing off shit you bought marblefag

>>12535002
Then explain why Segafags always want to port SNES games to the Sega Genesis ?

>>12563913
Because Genesis does it better, gayboy.
>>12563512

>>12563916
Every single SNES game would have been improved in some way if it was released on the Mega Drive instead, and a great deal of bad SNES games would have been made at least decent. Just by changing the hardware. It's actually sad what the SNES did to the 16-bit era. Homebrew developers don't want to make SNES games because they don't want to stifle they're game's potentials, it's as simple as that.

been a good thread but will reach 2 weeks old shortly

>>12559997
> The MD cpu is overkill for 2D games so the small overhead from slightly sub-optimal C will never make your game slow down
This is straight up false. C can have quite significant penalties. This mostly centers around function calls, register allocation and spilling. C can often be half as fast as assembly. C works if you are making a very basic game, but anything that requires significant complexity will need asm. Either that or you settle for 30fps like sonic spinball.

>>12559997
>The MD cpu is overkill for 2D games
Then why do so many games have slowdown

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>>12535002
>modern games
Anon, Pier Solar came out 16 years ago.

>>12564468
HLLs were always used on PC compatible games almost since the beginning.

>>12565080
One of the biggest costs in PC games was rendering. Drawing bitmap graphics burned the majority of the CPU time. Since rendering was the bottleneck usually only the rendering routines need be written in assembly. For consoles however, rendering is done in hardware so most cpu time goes to running the game logic. This lack of a convenient scapegoat for assembly optimization means that you have to code most of the game in assembly.

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>>12565123
no i mean since the primitive early days of CGA DOS PC games. it was always common to use compilers even back then, usually Pascal or compiled BASIC as there was no PC compatible C compiler until the late 80s.

cf. this 3D Pac-Man maze game. it was written in Pascal and is explicitly stated as such in the game instructions

>>12564804
16 years is a very small amount of time.

>>12543073
>an RPG is when predetermined characters go on a predetermined journey with predetermined goals and alliances, and the only player choice is whether to use a gunsword or swordgun
FF7 and its consequences...

>>12564804
that's what he said?

>>12535665
>>12535679
I remember how Krizz used to refuse to add support to Pier Solar at first to his Everdrives to reduce piracy of the game since it was at then a new release, support was eventually added years later. But for Paprium because that idiot Fonzie burned all of his goodwill with the stunts he pulled with that game that Krizz added support immediately as soon as the game was finally leaked in a playable state.