Believe it or not, canon fags insist on linear interpretation.

james do kinda be a monster tho

>>12544814
SH2 has frequently had terrible discussions for many years now even before the new games and remakes. More people want to talk about the game than actually play it so it's just a lot of blathering from people who don't know as much as they think they do. In my experience the discussions are usually better with people who are also fans of SH1 because they actually play the games and aren't delusional fanboys or just attracted to its popularity.

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>>12546814
You could argue about it a few ways but the main issue with that kind of thinking is always that they assume they have all available information. "We have points A and B, the take away must be C" is an understandable position to have - until points D, E, F, etc. come into play and show that C isn't actually a viable conclusion to draw.

>>12546824
He did an awful thing. Question is was it justified, and what's the motivation. For the Maria ending you have to do things that symbolically align with James not caring about Mary. Never interact with the note/letter, backtrack at a point where it's not needed implying James forgot the way to the hotel, and importantly, SKIP the sickbed dialogue at the end of the game by running through the hallway.

A common interpretation of James is that he killed Mary because he didn't want to have to deal with her. Some will label him simple a coward who couldn't handle it, some will say it's because he wanted to fuck other women. These "make sense" on a surface level pass, but only holds up if you miss crucial elements.

There's tons of stuff that directly counteracts that narrative, even things that comment on it. Mary tells Laura that James is gruff and not a happy person, but that she should look past the exterior. There's a skippable recording of James angrily arguing with the doctor when he tells him Mary WILL die. And of course, picrel is the single biggest condemnation against any of those readings. James is a fuckin gas station clerk and as far as background goes, all we got is he was into track and field. There's only 1 realistic conclusion to draw that would explain why he read a ton of medical books, and it's that he was trying to search for any kind of cure for Mary HIMSELF because he hated that the doctors were just giving up.

You have to have the most totalizing and cynical view to maintain the belief James is simply a monster and not a tragic figure forced to make a decision with no good outcomes.

>>12546945
People who have played and enjoyed the other games are somewhat more likely to have real nuanced views and understandings of 2, but it's definitely not an insured outcome. The most avid detractors of James or who people who just generally push for very thought terminating readings are the ones who have actually played the games, but the only way I can describe it is people who already formed their opinions before hand and got the endings they felt were "correct".

Most people respect and praise SH2 for its narrative, but it isn't necessarily something that can't be translated to other formats, it's just that every adaptation has been shit. What makes SH2 work best as a game is that it's layered in such a way that James becomes a dynamic character based on how YOU play. The more you engage with the story, the more you look for little scrips and scraps, the more you treat him well in terms of keeping on top of your HP, the more likely you are to get all the information and get the ending that paints him in less negative lighting.

It's like a Schrodinger's Cat situation. He is at all times either a disgusting monster of a person, or the most desperate wifeguy to ever exist. You learn the real answer by opening the box, which in this instance is getting all the information. You stick to the former conclusion by not engaging in good faith at all, by not giving him any benefit of the doubt. If you make a surface level appraisal, you get a surface level story and character. If you the effort in and give consideration that things aren't that black and white, you get to all the thing that show you're right to do so.

It's meant to be an overarching commentary on passing judgement (and judgement is obviously a massive aspect of the game as well!) but it just blows right over a lot of peoples heads. It's a neat concept that kneecaps itself because it only works if the people you're asking to engage are willing and capable of doing that.

reddit hill 2 fag was right.

>>12546946
I always thought James killed her in basically a temporary psychotic episode as an act of almost entirely sympathetic euthanasia. And stuff like amplifying his memories of sexual thoughts about other women when his wife couldn't fuck was just him beating himself up over things that anyone would do. I always figured the "James is a monster" thing was women who couldn't understand you could look at a nurse's butt when you're pent up and it doesn't mean you don't love your wife.

>>12546994
Essentially yes. A lot of the game, including monster designs, centers around James feeling guilty for having sexual thoughts at ALL while his terminally ill wife is dying, with Maria being the towns ultimate weapon to prey on this. It leads to a lot of crossed wires. She is a literal stripper, wearing a miniskirt and revealing top, butterfly tattoos, dyed blonde hair, regularly flirtatious, and she kind of looks like his wife. James is written like a complete autist who's awkward at socializing, and the voice casting of Guy Cihi was deliberate because he fits that without even trying.

For James to put himself in danger for her, and to not completely shut down her advances even if he doesn't play into them, while supposedly looking for his wife, can be read as him being a horndog who's ready to fuck this girl he just met if she gave the go-ahead and is willing to put his dead/terminally ill wife on the backburner to do so.

But also if James just ignored her and left her to fight monsters herself he'd be just as much of a piece of shit to a lot of people. So what they end up doing is acting how THEY would in the situation, but project the ensuing dynamic that they put on James as emblematic of his desires.

Really a lot of it comes down to the fact James is a sperg with hard to read emotions and people don't want to put any effort into picking apart or understanding what's actually going on in his head, just applying the worst possible interpretations at all times as a kneejerk response.

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>>12544814
It's a litmus test, the second somebody says something like that and don't budge you know to stop interacting with them and call them retards.

>>12546946
>A common interpretation of James is that he killed Mary because he didn't want to have to deal with her.
"I told you that I wanted to die, James. I wanted the pain to end"
"That’s why I did it, honey. I just couldn’t watch you suffer... no. That’s not true... You also said that you didn’t want to die. The truth is... I hated you. I wanted you out of the way. I wanted my life back..."
"James... if that were true, then why do you look so sad?"
Silent Hill 2 is ultimately a love story, perhaps the best one in all of videogames.

>>12547008
>you know to stop interacting with them and call them retards.
It's just annoying that it's extremely difficult to find people who share my interest in horror who aren't like this.
>Silent Hill 2 is ultimately a love story, perhaps the best one in all of videogames.
It is. I don't think it's even a contest amongst video games either, and holds its own outside of them. Trying to show it to people I care about has been a complete disaster, though.

The game draws heavily on that “Vietnam War guilt” from *Jacob’s Ladder* and also on Lynch’s exploration of the same themes of guilt and atonement. There are some other Eastern influences as well. Since it’s a survival horror action game, and because they felt it was better for the game’s combat to be non-optional, you have to grind for keys and deal with other genre clichés. But that clashes a bit with the game’s theme of sin and atonement. I think the main issue is that OP is a cultural warrior. For nearly 20 years, fans have praised the game for its seemingly feminist themes and its “ludonarrative.” SH2 was one of the games that always came up in discussions about immersion and “art” in video games.

>>12547023
>combat non-optional
>grind for keys
Not sure where this is coming from. You can skip basically all combat save bosses and a few specific enemies, and of course both Pyramid Head 'bossfights' are best done by not fighting at all. Do you think the game should've had ALL combat be optional? I don't think that COULDN'T work, but at the same time I don't believe that not allowing for 'true pacifism' somehow depreciates the games ability to cover themes of guilt. Anecdotal, but one of the people I saw who criticized the game the best claimed it outright wasn't about guilt at all.
For the key thing I just genuinely have no clue what you mean though. Keys are all static spawns with no grinding. I have to assume you mean something other than the usual meaning of 'grind' in video game terms, but I dunno what it could be.
>praised for its seemingly feminist themes
For all the thinkpieces on it I don't think I've actually seen much I would call a feminist interpretation. Do you have specific examples? The aspects that those types of posts would focus on?

Everything else I agree with. Those parts just seem completely out of left field.

>>12544814
>point out what kind of person he is can deviate wildly
So you get off pointing out incorrect shit. Lovely. What a great idea for a thread.

>>12547073
Do you believe that James is entirely the exact same character in all 3 endings, in terms of motivations, goals, etc.? If so, how do you actually explain such different outcomes?

>>12547043
I didn't express myself clearly. But I'm referring to the gameplay loop of the survival horror genre of key hunting, gauntlets, and bosses. Like, Eddie is one of the best examples of the jarring dissonance he brings to the game. He doesn't fit into James's character arc; he's only there because it's a genre cliché. You could even say that about Pyramid Head, but they gave meaning to a giant enemy. And I pointed out optional combat because there were already survival horror games from the ’80s that had optional combat. “But you can finish it without confronting enemies” is sort of true, except that it’s a nearly unintended path. It requires multiple playthroughs, kind of like Resident Evil, and the game doesn’t have alternative paths, which makes this “pacifist” playthrough kind of unintentional. Memories, the best non-Team Silent game, from a narrative standpoint, did the right thing by making combat optional.

>>12547214
Ah, yeah okay. Makes a lot more sense. I think Eddie still has a place in the story through how he is basically the exact kind of person people accuse James of being, but I suppose he isn't necessary and the boss fight is definitely just a case of not knowing how else to finish off his thread. I don't really know what would work better, though.

I disagree that avoiding combat is unintended though. I think having the option to do it or not gives it more weight, and it does play in to what kind of ending you get too. More indepth and responsive combat was on the table, complete pacifism in the gameplay was on the table, they pretty specifically chose a middle ground. Even RE which was the blueprint for all these types of games pushed for combat being required far more, with aggressive enemy respawns and far more cramped environments where navigating around enemies just wasn't possible. SH2 and on gives much more allowance to playing extremely skittish and only fighting when you corner yourself. If you think it doesn't work, that's one thing, but I think it's diminishing to just call it adherence to cliche or keeping to the genre staples.

I assume by Memories you mean Shattered Memories and not Book of Memories. I'd also agree it's the best non-team silent game (hell I would even say it's better than 4 but people would try to crucify me for that) but I don't think the pacifism combat is that big a part of that. Hell, it's kinda of the hardest part to excuse, since enemy encounters become a binary switch and the game basically just tells you "it is time to be scared now", as well as the fact those encounters are incredibly repetitive and often tedious if you don't know where to go already. The way the enemy designs change would help a lot more if they were more noticeable in actual gameplay and didn't you to look at concept art, too. Really I think it's a lot of decent ideas, poor execution.

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>>12546946
>putting mary out of her misery
Pampered normiefags lack the empathy to understand that.

>>12547253
Basically yeah. I was already on that side of things even before, but after my great grandmother who was probably the single most important person in my life ended up in hospice with really bad pneumonia and rapidly worsening dementia, it's even more understandable.

>>12546973
And you are reddit's biggest fan

>>12547006
There's also the fact that he's in the home stretch of waiting for her to die and it would be objectively a lot more convenient for a sociopath that has checked out to just wait rather than rack up some jail time.

>>12547620
This is true, but to be fair, the game does not establish the chronology that well and also actively contradicts itself to establish James' psychosis. He thinks she died years ago, but we learn through Laura that she died just a bit over a week ago, and a lot of people get to that reveal and get confused thinking its some kind of time warping shit the town is doing. The only part of the entire game I'm aware of that properly establishes that James spent 3 years waiting to see if she would recover is a single line in the Maria ending.